Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 daedhaed Jun 12, 2013 18:06:06	Wood Elf Battle sorcerer 7/ abjurant champion 5/ eldritch knight 8 You need the otherworldly feat to give you the outsider type which grant proficiency with all martial weapons. Feats: in no particular order Combat casting Precise Shot Woodland archery Dead eye I can have 2 flaws and eventually chaos shuffle the 4 racial bonus feats. All other feats are yet to be determined. The main plan behind this build is to draconic polymorph into an arrow demon and fire 24 arrows per round dealing decent damage with each one. i would like assistance in optimizing this. I'm using 2 splitting collision sizing energy bows of speed.
#2 EruditeApe Jun 13, 2013 3:37:16	Don't. Sorcerer 4/Paladin 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 is superior and gives you Persistomancy. There's also the fact that your archery will suck, but that's kinda beside the point that your gish will suck. Also,, really? No Energy Bow? No Force?
#3 daedhaed Jun 13, 2013 5:04:24	I said I'm using splitting collision ENERGY BOWS of speed. I can never understand how people can run around with gishes without the highest BAB obtainable. And DMM doesn't work on arcane spells anymore. And losing 2 caster levels instead of one hurts as well.
#4 The_Fred Jun 13, 2013 11:28:35	Because spells are better than BAB anyway? You do probably want +16 by L20 for the iteratives, but after that another +1 is no better than a +1 from anywhere else.
#5 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 13, 2013 12:18:44	Additionally, feats like Southern Magician allow arcane spells to be cast as divine spells, thus benefiting from DMM. If you're in territory that considers the dark chaos shuffle to be above the table and not cheesy, then there are easy ways to get DMM on your arcane spells (or to cast divine spells with those slots, if you prefer). I'm not sure offhand what I'd suggest to help out such a character; I'm not terribly familiar with advanced archery. Edit: In all fairness, I can see one reason why you'd want over 16 in a build like this - if you're playing at a lower level. Hitting base attack +6 at level 10 (unrealistic, but the lower bound on what you can get and still have a +16 build) will make a pretty sorry excuse for a gish, while hitting +6 at level 7 or 8 is much more respectable.
#6 EruditeApe Jun 13, 2013 12:25:23	I can never understand how people can run around with gishes without the highest BAB obtainable. You don't need to. Anything above 16 is wasted. And DMM doesn't work on arcane spells anymore. And you make it sound like sorcerers can't cast Divine spells. And losing 2 caster levels instead of one hurts as well.  ...no. No it really doesn't.
#7 daedhaed Jun 13, 2013 13:49:49	Ok so then a better option would be to build with focused transmuter wizard?
#8 The_Fred Jun 13, 2013 17:06:13	Hitting base attack +6 at level 10 (unrealistic, but the lower bound on what you can get and still have a +16 build) will make a pretty sorry excuse for a gish, while hitting +6 at level 7 or 8 is much more respectable. Obviously, for any build which is going to be played from a lower level, when you get those iteratives matters more than whether you even get all four by L20, since if you never get to L20, who gives a damn? But likewise, L5 and lower characters have sod all use for BAB beyond the fact that it's still AB. Which would you rather have, +1 BAB, or +2 Str?
#9 EruditeApe Jun 13, 2013 17:22:39	Ok so then a better option would be to build with focused transmuter wizard? Is there ever a situation were it wouldn't?
#10 daedhaed Jun 13, 2013 17:40:25	This character begins play at lvl 10. Wiz 3/ fighter 2/ spellsword 1/ abjurant champion 4 has +9 BAB and 8th level wizard casting. Battle sorc 4/ paladin 2/ spellsword 1/ AbC 3 has +9 BAB and 8th level battle sorc casting. I'd rather be a focused transmuter. Now that I have the level progression, now I need to get all my feats. I need a way to DMM persist my spells later on so I'll discuss that with my DM. Right now I need practiced spellcaster so I can hit 10 CL for polymorph that way I can go arrow demon now and then later I can retrain it. I archery feats can be taken as fighter bonus feats. Improved initiative is obtained at lvl 1 instead of scribe scroll. Combat casting must be taken at some point. Looking to grab dead eye and woodland archer at some point. Then maybe arcane disciple to grab a domain with righteous might and co. Eventually I need extend spell, persistent spell, DMM and other good stuff.
#11 EruditeApe Jun 13, 2013 17:59:14	This character begins play at lvl 10. Wiz 3/ fighter 2/ spellsword 1/ abjurant champion 4 has +9 BAB and 8th level wizard casting. Battle sorc 4/ paladin 2/ spellsword 1/ AbC 3 has +9 BAB and 8th level battle sorc casting. I'd rather be a focused transmuter. Now that I have the level progression, now I need to get all my feats. I need a way to DMM persist my spells later on so I'll discuss that with my DM. Right now I need practiced spellcaster so I can hit 10 CL for polymorph that way I can go arrow demon now and then later I can retrain it. I archery feats can be taken as fighter bonus feats. Improved initiative is obtained at lvl 1 instead of scribe scroll. Combat casting must be taken at some point. Looking to grab dead eye and woodland archer at some point. Then maybe arcane disciple to grab a domain with righteous might and co. Eventually I need extend spell, persistent spell, DMM and other good stuff. And why would you ever take fighter? It's a terribad option. Also, your wizard progression doesn't work, but thats' fine because it's terrible anyways. Paladin has at least some Cha-SAD with sorcerer, but fighter and wizard? If you're going to do a wizard, don't half-ass it. Just be a wizard. This goes double for taking crap feats.  As for Metamagic, Mystra gave us Incantatrix for a reason.
#12 daedhaed Jun 13, 2013 18:38:50	Straight wizard gishes never get those last iteratives. How does the progression not work. Fighter gets bonus feats which are solid.
#13 draco1119 Jun 13, 2013 18:41:58	You've never heard of Divine Power, have you?
#14 daedhaed Jun 13, 2013 18:43:19	Also don't see how any of those are crap feats.
#15 daedhaed Jun 13, 2013 18:45:45	You've never heard of Divine Power, have you? What about it?
#16 draco1119 Jun 13, 2013 18:52:11	Really?! It spells out "BAB equal to your caster level (max 20), including iterative attacks" and you're wondering how it addresses your problem?
#17 draco1119 Jun 13, 2013 18:54:15	Oh, sorry: It's CHARACTER level, not caster, which only makes it more powerful.
#18 daedhaed Jun 13, 2013 19:16:05	I'd have to take arcane disciple twice. One for strength and once for war. And sorry, I thought you meant the book.
#19 StevenO Jun 13, 2013 20:31:14	This character begins play at lvl 10. Wiz 3/ fighter 2/ spellsword 1/ abjurant champion 4 has +9 BAB and 8th level wizard casting. ... Wiz3/Ftr2/SS1/AbC4 doesn't work.  Forget what everyone else is telling you about its power level but just know that it doesn't work as far as the basic game mechanics are concerned.  You see, entering SS requires you have a +4 BAB which you would not have.  After that AbC has a +5 BAB requirement and you fail to meet that as well.  A Wiz3/Ftr2 only has a +3 BAB which doesn't allow you to take a level in Spellsword.  Now if you had levels in BattleSorcerer instead of Wizard you would have the +4 BAB needed to enter SS and then the +5 needed to enter AbC but otherwise you need another point of BAB before you can start entering those PrCs.
#20 daedhaed Jun 13, 2013 20:53:58	Math was off. Woops. Sorc 3 doesn't work either because you need to be able to cast 2nd level spells. Damn. Was hoping to get AbC 4 before or at 10th level cause that lvl 4 ability is pretty sweet.
#21 draco1119 Jun 13, 2013 20:55:39	Fighter 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/AbChamp 4
#22 StevenO Jun 13, 2013 21:09:02	Fighter 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/AbChamp 4 This can certainly work.
#23 EruditeApe Jun 13, 2013 21:39:25	Straight wizard gishes never get those last iteratives. Incantatrix says yes they do. But they don't need them, so it doesn't really matter. Wizard gishes are terrible. Any time you're doing anythign gishy, you have something better to do. How does the progression not work. Basic arithmatic? Fighter gets bonus feats which are solid. Lolno. Also don't see how any of those are crap feats. Then this may be news to you, but toughness is pretty bad, too. What about it? It gives you full BAB. I'd have to take arcane disciple twice. One for strength and once for war. And sorry, I thought you meant the book. Sigh... Go read Magic of Eberron. Then go look at what Incantatixes get at level 3.
#24 daedhaed Jun 14, 2013 4:28:04	Which feats were you saying were bad? You referring to lesser scheemas you need a UMD check of at least 20 to use them if they contain spells outside your spell list. That tough for a wizard to obtain.
#25 EruditeApe Jun 14, 2013 7:38:34	Which feats were you saying were bad? All of them. You referring to lesser scheemas you need a UMD check of at least 20 to use them if they contain spells outside your spell list. That tough for a wizard to obtain. ... You're telling me you're having problems getting a wizard with a +19 bonus or higher on UMD?
#26 daedhaed Jun 14, 2013 8:05:37	Yes. Teach me the ways of raising cross-class skills
#27 daedhaed Jun 14, 2013 10:42:54	Anyways the full plan is to draconic polymorph into an arrow demon (the difference between 24 shots and 12) then righteous might (bonus damage and larger damage dice for using a huge weapon) and then finally bite of the werebear enhanced with ability enhancer and focused caster for massive damage boosts. Adding dex damage through dead eye would be an additional 8 damage per shot which can really add up.
#28 EruditeApe Jun 14, 2013 10:58:46	Yes. Teach me the ways of raising cross-class skills Apprentice Spellcaster, a feat vastly better than anything you've mentioned, I might add, or Aereni Focus, or even Human Paragon or a truly ludicrous number or PrCs, or... well, I really could go on, but it seems kinda pointless. Anyways the full plan is to draconic polymorph into an arrow demon (the difference between 24 shots and 12) then righteous might (bonus damage and larger damage dice for using a huge weapon) and then finally bite of the werebear enhanced with ability enhancer and focused caster for massive damage boosts. Adding dex damage through dead eye would be an additional 8 damage per shot which can really add up. So when are you planning on doing this buffing. Your build lacks any useful level of persistomancy, which means you're stuck doing it in combat, which means that you either are using some ludicrous abuses of the action economy, you plan on dying, or you plan on being useless. It seems the latter, given how you could use half of the actions and a fourth of the spell levels you're proposing to just Spectral Hand/Shiverring Touch whatever the hell has you so rustled you'd be willing to waste that much energy on something so easily shut down.
#29 daedhaed Jun 14, 2013 12:18:29	This was a build exersize to see how to optimize dual bow wielding that was born out of another thread not to actually be played because it is awful. If a Gish was really what I wanted it would be melee as it is greatly superior. With that feat an incantatrix cold pull it off but it wouldn't really be worth it.
#30 The_Fred Jun 15, 2013 6:22:07	To be honest I think you'd be better off as a Cleric with Zen Archery and Divine Power; the Arrow Demon only appears to have 19 Dex, which is not bad, but you could do better. Is there a domain which grants (Draconic) Polymorph? Obviously you can get Shapechange but that's way down the line, and you probably have better things to turn into then.
#31 daedhaed Jun 15, 2013 9:10:27	I suppose you could grab the domain with shapechange in it and then take the feat customize Domain (if allowed) to put polymorph and draconic polymorph on there. That would allow for this to work really well. But then you'd have trouble getting bite of x spells.
#32 daedhaed Jun 15, 2013 9:12:24	Nvm bite of x spells would also fit the theme of the domain so you would just add them to your custom Domain.
#33 The_Fred Jun 16, 2013 16:24:23	Yeah you could just ask you DM to make Polymorph a Divine spell, tbh.
#34 piggyknowles Jun 16, 2013 16:52:57	EDIT: Sorry, just realized that you were probably talking about the Dead Eye feat from Dragon Magazine, not Deadeye Shot.  Dragon Magazine isn't one of my go-to sources, so I got those confused.  I was wondering why you seemed so excited about getting it onto the build, as I found it a pretty underwhelming feat.  Anyhow, it's fairly easy to fit on, even though it requires Weapon Focus.  You've got a few options.  One is to drop Precise Shot for a bow with the Precise property, and replace it with Weapon Focus.  Another is to just pick it up via extended Heroics.  Or take a flaw, or drop Woodland Archer off the build, or whatever you need to do.  It's actually not an essential feat if you're planning to go Arrow Demon, since you've got the limited Dex of 19. The build that got all of this discussion started in the first place was a Psychic Warrior build I'd posted: Show Feats: 1. Ranger1- Track, Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves) 2. Ranger2- Rapid Shot 3. PsyWar1- Zen Archery, Azure Talent 4. PsyWar2- Psycarnum Infusion 5. PsyWar3-  6. PsyWar4- Open Least Chakra (Hands) 7. PsyWar5- Psicrystal Affinity 8. PsyWar6-  9. PsyWar7- Psicrystal Containment 10. PsyWar8- Psionic Meditation 11. PsyWar9-  12. PsyWar10- Improved Essentia Capacity 13. PsyWar11- Midnight Augmentation 14. PsyWar12-  15. PsyWar13- Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis) 16. PsyWar14- Expanded Knowledge (Schism) 17. PsyWar15-  18. PsyWar16- Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Avatar) 19. PsyWar17- Linked Power 20. PsyWar18-  Powers: 1- Expansion, Metaphysical Weapon, Extend Range 2- Hustle, Psionic Scent, Damp Power 3- Greater Concealing Amorpha, Dimension Slide, Mental Barrier/Telekinetic Boomerang 4- Schism, Metamorphosis, Steadfast Perception, Psionic Freedom of Movement, Inertial Barrier 5- Empower Weapon, Oak Body, Change Fate 6- Personal Mind Blank, Dispelling Buffer, Inconstant Location