| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1theriannAug 22, 2010 11:32:28 | I'd like the community opinion on the Battle Sorcerer variant presented in Unearthed Arcana. Is it worth losing the spells for the survivability? I don't see myself using the weapon proficiency while I still have spells left, but it gives a good deal of survival power. |
| #2lycanthrope0Aug 22, 2010 11:44:53 | battle sorcerer is a trap. even for gish type characters. can i ask what your going for with this character. i cant help but drop this shameless plug if your going for a gish brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p... since i wrote it but no do use battle sorcerer |
| #3GavinfoxAug 22, 2010 13:44:08 | Ignore battle sorcerer! |
| #4theriannAug 22, 2010 15:04:53 | What's so bad about it? It about doubles the survivability of the character. I did have a problem picking my spells known, as I don't get many. (I built the same character, once with Battle sorcerer, once with plain old Sorcerer. With the one Metamagic whatsit from the PHB 2 on each.) I'm not really going for a gish, I'm just trying to make sure my character survives. I thought the (much) bigger hit die and armor'd help. |
| #5GavinfoxAug 22, 2010 15:34:30 | If you want to survive as a Gish, look at one of the Gish handbooks floating around. The best way to do it is leverage as many of your sorcerer spells as possible into survivability, and a few levels of some martial classes to give you the ability to be good martially. Warblade/Sorcerer/Jade Phoenix Mage is a good bet. |
| #6lycanthrope0Aug 22, 2010 16:12:27 | if you are going for pure survivabilty then just do Stalwart Sorcerer if you have a fear of low HP. Casting in Armor can be gained so easily later on its not that big of a deal. besides tactics will be your best bet for survivability at the begining anyway. how are you generating your stats and what books are allowed and im sure we can give you better advice. and Mage Armor will be as good as the best armor you can afford before 5th level anyway. if your starting at first level i would just take a spell like grease or color spray and let the melee guys in your party do the heavy lifting. but your best bet is still going to be group tactics and staying out of the melee range of what ever your fighting. and dont worry about chargers just take caltrops as one of your cantrips and drop the around you to stop them in there tracks ron |
| #7theriannAug 22, 2010 17:33:40 | The books allowed are what I have and the SRD. So, that comes out to Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, Planar Handbook, and the PHB 2. I can get Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Races of Stone, and the Draconomicon from my Library system. I tried my non-Battle Sorcerer today in a solo campaign, and my DM dropped me down a 30 ft pit before I saw a round of combat. (Well, actually, I rolled a F$&#@*G natural 1...) The character I used looked like this: (Rolled stats.) Human Sorcerer 1 Str 8 Dex 14 Con 11 Int 13 Wis 11 Cha 15 HP: 4 AC: 12 (Touch 12, Flat-Footed 10.) Saves: Fort: +0 Ref: +2 Will: +2 Skills: Craft (Alchemy) (4 ranks) +5 Knowledge (Arcana) (4 ranks) +5 Knowledge (The Planes) (2 ranks) +3 Spellcraft (4 ranks) +5 Feats: Elemental Spellcasting (Fire) Eschew Materials Spells: 0: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Mage Hand. 1st: Color Spray, Kelgore's Fire Bolt The Craft (Alchemy) was for picking up Mad Alchemist later. As you can see, it's not really intended for Gish-ness, just for killing things with fire. (Literally.) |
| #8GavinfoxAug 22, 2010 17:44:22 | Uh, a pit trap appropriate for a level 1 character would do like 2d6? So, on average, 7 damage, max 12, and a level 1 sorcerer with a 14 con would have 6 hit points with a full range of -10 hit points before he dies, so if your party was on the ball, you shouldn't have died from that... Ask for point buy, next time... 8 str, 8 dex, 14 con, 12 int, 8 wis, 16 cha, if you have to... And life is cheap at 1st level. That's why many groups start at level 3 or so... besides, those feats kinda sucked, and now you can build a better one! Here is a gish handbook: brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p... |
| #9SenevriAug 22, 2010 17:59:20 | @gavinfox, apparently not a gish, just survivable. The average difference between a D4 and a D8 is 2 hit points. Basically, 1 extra HP per level = 1 die larger HP dice. The FIRST level is a bit different, you're likely to get killed by a housecat. *edit* Okay, here's a practical optimization thing to keep in mind - it means nothing if your character becomes the lord of the universe at level 20, if you start from level 1. There IS practical value in making choices that keep you alive at the level you're currently playing at. However, these choices mustn't sabotage the rest of your career. The optimal first level sorcerer is probably a gnome. (or a kobold, but, y'know....) Charisma bonus, and CON bonus. You can usually start with a 16 in both charisma and CON. Unless your stats REALLY suck. The worst possible stats are probably 13, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10. (13 point buy, come to think of it.) Even then you'd end with 8, 10, 12, 10, 10, 15. If you must, take a look at Stalwart Sorcerer. It sucks a bit less than battle sorcerer. |
| #10GavinfoxAug 22, 2010 18:22:58 | If you are playing a Gish, consider taking your martial class as your first class maybe? Just start out as a Forest Gnome Warblade, then go Wizard, then go Jade Phoenix Mage. That keeps you int focused. Or if you want to do Cha focus, you can go Hexblade, then Bard or Sorcerer, and making sure you take the needed feats, get into Jade Phoenix Mage. |
| #11lycanthrope0Aug 22, 2010 18:32:51 | i played a sorcerer a few years back that was nuts about fire spells but i hate to break it to you this way but dont start out at level 1 using fire based spells. use mage armor or you will be making another character a lot. and those stats are pretty bad for a solo campaign. see if you can reroll or use a higher point buy. if you realy like the idea of fire based spells i suggest using the draconic heritage feats to get you the spells added on later and help in your survivablity. and kelgore fire bolt is a trap at low levels your better off using things like color spray or magic missle and dont fforget you need AC so you need to know Mage Armor |
| #12GavinfoxAug 22, 2010 18:38:39 | Ooohhh survivable character for a solo campaign? Yea, I just realized, solo campaign. You will want immediate, massive melee capability at low level for a solo campaign. Druid or Cleric would work... Or if you want to play a melee class, Warblade or Crusader would be fine too. Maybe even Hexblade. But yea, solo campaign? You'll want to have access to something to tank, so, yea, Druid would work great... And a spellcaster class with a D4 hit dice in a solo campaign? Uhhh you'd need like, at least 34 point buy. Seriously. EXTREMELY high point buy matters a LOT for solo campaigns. You don't really want to have any stat under a 12 except maybe one dump stat, and you want at least two 16's, one of which is Constitution, and you would preferably want two 18's... And you'd want to, if you are a spellcaster, focus on things that immediately end fights or take baddies out of commission.. That means, for an arcanist type, sleep, grease, color spray, etc. You don't use spells to deal *damage* at first level! That's just suicide, because it requires more than one spell to drop something with hit point damage at that level. The earliest time you want to use spells for direct damage as a major way of doing things is if you, you know, can drop most anything you come across in one, maybe two turns, tops. |
| #13SenevriAug 22, 2010 19:56:09 | Sorcerers get simple weapons. Longspear is a simple weapon. With not-that-bad a damage, too. Get AoO on anyone entering melee reach, 5ft step back, cast spell, repeat. Color spray... and maybe you should go feather fall with that DM ;) |
| #14theriannAug 23, 2010 12:21:58 | I didn't fall down a 30 ft pit trap, I rolled a 1 on my climb check. Still hurts, though. What book is the Jade Phoenix Mage in? Everyone seems to recommend it, but I don't know where to look. As for those feats, what's wrong with them? I know Eschew Materials isn't the best, but I don't want my component pouch getting taken and me not being able to cast spells. And Elemental Spellcasting isn't that bad... Is it? Are the feats subpar choices because something better exists, or are they just bad? Yes, the Longspear was what I had in mind. Color Spray is better than sleep, in my opinion. As for Kelgore's Fire Bolt, I though it would boost my character's ranged power beyond a crossbow. One spell I was considering was Critical Strike, from Complete Adventurer. |
| #15GavinfoxAug 23, 2010 13:34:31 | I didn't fall down a 30 ft pit trap, I rolled a 1 on my climb check. Still hurts, though. You do know that if you aren't rushed or threatened, you can take 10 for climbing, right? And go at normal speed? Anyway, Warblade and Jade Pheonix Mage (The basic build is Warblade 1/Wizard4/JPM10 I think) is in Tome of Battle. And if you want to be a level 1 spellcaster with options that are better than a crossbow, you want, you know, to get, say, Precocious Apprentice (some useful level 2 fire spell, like scorching ray), and get a Reserve feat like Fiery Burst... Or in GENERAL, you want to go read the Sorcerer Handbooks (there are a few, here's one: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... ) and the Gish Handbook! Get feats that are either suggested for sorcerers in general, or will help your survivability in a solo game, or will help you do your chosen theme (arcanist who can fight in melee), or something that will give you an ability that you didn't have before (like being able to throw little firebolts all day long), etc. etc. If you seriously think that the DM is going to remove your character's only ability to do his job in a SOLO GAME (hence the need for eschew materials, really? Who pays attention to the bad joke [as in literally ha ha funny, take a close look at the actual material components sometime] that is material components?), maybe you should have a talk with the DM? |
| #16SenevriAug 23, 2010 17:37:42 |
But, that's a Gish. You mentioning Battle Sorcerer put us all into a Gish mindset. And if you want to be a level 1 spellcaster with options that are better than a crossbow, you want, you know, to get, say, Precocious Apprentice (some useful level 2 fire spell, like scorching ray), and get a Reserve feat like Fiery Burst... Oh, yeah. The fiery Burst trick is neat- practically all you need at low levels. Maybe SF:Illusion? That and being a gnome is a +2 on your illusion DCs, which will help Color Spray work. Not much to work with at 1st level... Except, buy a guard dog! Best buy at first level. (although sorcerers get low starting wealth, right?) |
| #17GavinfoxAug 23, 2010 18:04:21 | No, no, the best buy at low levels is a small squad of attack mules and someone to train them all to have (different) useful tricks, and who can then command them for you in combat while you, i dunno, use a sling or something. |
| #18theriannAug 23, 2010 20:23:12 | I can't get Complete Arcane for a few days; it's on it's way, though. Reading through some of the handbooks, I can't find any suggestions for feats that would do any good at 1st level. Most cover either metamagic, which, incidentally, I can't put to much use right now, feats from books I don't have, or feats I can't take yet. |
| #19ObsidianConspiracyAug 23, 2010 20:41:50 | I liek the PHB II metamagic sorcerer variant myself. But it means you cna't do the whole double casting via familiar things I also like battle sorcerer, but with mine i did notice the spell loss heavily |
| #20theriannAug 24, 2010 10:10:14 | I remember there being a feat in Complete Arcane that gives any class that can cast arcane spells a Familiar. Does anyone have any suggestions for feats that are in books I have, that I can take at first level, that will benefit my character (at first level)? |
| #21SenevriAug 24, 2010 13:40:40 | Point Blank Shot, actually, come to think of it. It'll increase your to-hit chance and damage with Acid Splash and the like by +1 - or with thrown splash weapons, too. Acid flasks are cheap. Improved Initiative is fine, too. Going before the other guy hits you is verry important. Survival in the low levels is much about luck, paranoia, correct equipment and such, rather than about the correct build. |
| #22lycanthrope0Aug 24, 2010 19:36:20 | not sure what you have been reading up on but heres a couple of sorcere guides to help out for the entire career. and at level 1 you want your feats to either be thigns like improved init or prereqs for better feats or prcs. brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p... brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p... brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p... |
| #23theriannAug 25, 2010 9:33:27 | I just got access to Complete Arcane, and I found a plethora of prestige classes, two of which I'd like to combine. Combining them to greatest effect requires the 5th level planar substitution level for sorcerers, which lets you substitute half of the elemental damage in a spell for force damage. Then, take Elemental Savant, which gives big boosts with elemental spells. (And unfortunately, changes them to all one damage type. But the Sorcerer substitution level should help with that.) Then, Argent Savant. This gives bigger boosts to force spells. (Which all of my elemental spells will be.) 20 levels, 5 Sorcerer/5 Argent Savant/10 Elemental Savant. What do you think? EDIT: I don't even need to take more than 1-2 level of Argent Savant, and I don't know if I want to take 10 levels of Elemental Savant; immunity to energy is nice, but I don't want to be turned/rebuked... (Plus, it loses me a spellcasting level.) So, this leaves 1-5 levels free. What then? |
| #24lycanthrope0Aug 25, 2010 16:40:16 | I just got access to Complete Arcane, and I found a plethora of prestige classes, two of which I'd like to combine. Elemental Savants not great, now i have seen and used it to great effect with an abjuration based wizard, using the caster level increase to help with dispel and other caster level checks. but then i only ever cast orbs of force so i didnt feel the negatives of the class. that being said i do not like it for a Sorcerer. the thing i feel is most important to sorcerers is adding more spells to thier spells known. so they have some thing to do with all the spells per day they get. in this line i am a big fan of the heratige feat trees for just that reason. or things like the full casting rainbow servant. but this is your choice ron |
| #25theriannAug 25, 2010 17:50:03 | That particular elemental prestige class isn't necessary, I just picked it for the bonuses to elemental spells. The basic idea'd work even with just the Argent Savant. I was planning to take Draconic heritage, natural armor is always nice. (And flight, and extra spells, and all that stuff...) |
| #26SenevriAug 25, 2010 21:21:38 | Argent Savant 3. Extended force is nice. Take a look at evocation blasts with duration. see it doubled. Elemental Savant is tricky - I think you get the k:planes from planar sorc, but combined with the level drop from argent savant, ouch. Since you already know them planes... planar Sorc 6, argent savant 3, Alienist 7, Mindbender 1, Wild Mage 1, Elemental Savant 2. not in that order. A bit of this and that, two metamagics for free, telepathy, CL of 20+1d6. I found out something new - you don't really want to enter subchord with just 1 sorc level loss. that being said, a Sorc 6/Bard 1/Wildmage 1/Mindbender 1/Elemental Savant 1/Subchord 2/Elemental Savant +3/alienist 5 could get CL up to 24+1d6, if I didn't mess up my math.Total loss: 3 levels of sorc casting, means no 9th spells, though. Here's something interesting, though: Bard 5/fullbab 1/Green Star Adept 5/Subchord 2/Green Star Adept +5/fullcasty +3. The least damage a GSA can do. ---- Okay, focus. Recommendations: Sorc 6, Alienist 10, Elemental Savant 4. CL loss: 0 Sorc 6, Argent Savant 3, Mindbender 1, Elemental Savant 10. Cl loss: 3 Sorc 6, Alienist 3, Mindbender 1, Elemental Savant 10. Cl loss: 2 Costly for sorcerers, but: Sorcerer 6, arcane preparation, cooperative spell, mage of the arcane order 10, elemental savant 4 Sorcerer 6, elemental savant 3, Initiate of the sevenfold veil 10, archmage 1 In general, - argent savant is 3 levels. - mindbender and wildmage are 1 level - elemental savant is SAFE for 4 levels. - alienist is okay all the way, but 3 and 7 are decent breakpoints. - blood magus is kooky. Homunculus is almost worth a CL loss, and the +2 CON at 9th helps. NEVER take the 10th level. - effigy master is probably too good. - fatespinner is fine for 4 levels, albeit the last one isn't that bad. Great for blasting with ref-save spells on easy, then slapping a save-or with DC bonuses. - IO7FV is probably too expensive feat-wise, albeit good. - MotAO is pretty good. expensive entry, though. - Subchord is for bards, unless you're losing more than 2 CL anyway.... - wayfarer guide - sure, take a level if you happened to fulfill the prerequisites. - geometer is wizards only. I've always wanted to use Alienist properly, but it doesn't really do anything too special. Still, if K:planes is a class skill, the entry is super simple. It progresses familiars, and nets two metamagic feats. You could do a Sorc 6/Alienist 10/Fiendblood 4, and it'd be nice - might get your familiar TWO templates. Oh, best PHB2 feat? Spell-linked familiar is very very nifty. It's like a free quicken spell. |
| #27theriannAug 26, 2010 17:57:18 | I don't know if Alienist is something I want; I was planning to multiclass a level into Monk after I saw the Monk/Sorcerer multiclass feat in Complete Adventurer. It doesn't do much for my spellcasting, but it will boost my AC by around 7 points. That's pretty good for a feat and a level. (I do suppose that as I level up, I could switch alignments from Lawful-something to Chaotic-Something...) What's wrong with the 10th level of Blood Magus? Is Bloodwalk... Wait, it's like teleport, but it damages. And it's once a day. And it takes a level. That you could use elsewhere. Never mind. Another question for the community: Is Arcane Toughness worth it? It doesn't seem like it to me. I mean, it is healing you don't have to spend a standard action for, but it doesn't heal much... I don't know. What do you think? At any rate, how's this look? Sorcerer 5 / Argent Savant 3 / Monk 1 / Elemental Savant 3 / Wild Mage 1 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 Some Feat Choices: Practiced Spellcaster, Elemental Spellcasting (Fire), that kind of thing. Caster Level: 19 + 1d6 + 1 if spell is Fire. Which, incidentally, includes all of my spells that do energy damage. Doesn't lose 9th level spells, but it only gets one to cast. Any suggestions for 9th level spells? I'm thinking Shades or Wish. Though I can just get that last one from a scroll. It gets a Monk AC bonus equal to 2 + Charisma modifier. (Which if I put an 18 into charisma at first, comes out to be 6 + 3 from a Cloak of Charisma + 2 = +11 to AC at 20th.) |
| #28SenevriAug 27, 2010 8:55:18 | Yeah. Alienist isn't that good. It's sort of a mixed bag. I just like it. I never noticed Ascetic Mage does that. Huh. Can be worth a level. In any case, looks good ( Planar sorc was sorc 5, not 6? Okay), just keep in mind, you lose two caster levels and Initiate is very very expensive. |
| #29theriannAug 27, 2010 10:00:03 | Do you think Mage of the Arcane Order would better suit this character, or should I stick with Initiate? Also, I forgot about the alignment requirements on Wild Mage; I'll have to switch to chaotic anyway. But I don't really want Alienist, I like summoning elementals and such. It would be nice to have a Psudonatural familiar, but I'm trading my familiar for Metamagic Specialist. Although it could be worth a feat to get one... I checked the planar sorcerer, and it affects all spells that do energy damage. So, all of my spells that do energy damage are half fire and half force, are extended, do +1 damage per die, are +2 vs. SR, are cast at +1 caster level, and I'd like suggestions for more bonuses to add to this. Two caster levels isn't really horrific, but it does hurt. I'd take Blood Magus 5 instead, but that'd lose me ANOTHER caster level. A homunculus isn't worth that. Initiate doesn't boost fire or force spells, and provides little benefit to abjuration; I really am starting to think that 3-4 levels of MotAO would fit better. |
| #30lycanthrope0Aug 27, 2010 20:01:55 | Iniate of the Seven Fold Veil is a great class but i think its entry requirements are to steep for a sorcerer to be honest. now as a wizard i am all for it because you can get greater spell focus - abjur for free from master specialist. along with the amount of spells you can obtain as a wizrard. i think if you want to do argent savant take all 5 levels. the +5 damage and free quicken and extend as a sorcerer is golden. i dont think mage of the arcane order is ruff for a sorcerer. the benefits ar good but the price in spells per day isnt all ways worth it. if you are trying to be a God type caster as a Sorcerer i would try something like this Human Paragon 3/ Sorcerer 5/ Fate Spinner 4 / Argent Savant 5/ Sorcerer 3 i would put heartfire fanner from Dragon Mag if you had access to it for the last 3 levels or instead of fate spinner but not sure if you have access to it. HF gives you 10th level bardic Music in 5 levels and you could then add something like Sublime cord on top of it so you have a faster spell progress as well. ( i think you get a few extra spells known as well) so it would look something like this Human Paragon 3 /Sorcerer 3/ Heartfire Fanner 5/ Sublime Cord 10 nets you CL19 and a 15th level bardic abilities on top of being a full caster from the sorcerers spell list. a few nice abilities from sublime cord tied to bardic music. plus you can cast in Mithril twilight Chain Shirt with no spell failure and use a single martial weapon of your choice. Ron |
| #31SenevriAug 27, 2010 22:23:33 | I think you're mixing up argent savant and abjurant champion. |
| #32lormadorAug 28, 2010 6:55:25 | I might get made fun of for this, but I don't think Battle Sorcerer is bad at all. The reason- Battle Sorcerer qualifies for Arcane Strike at 6th. It is the only way (that I know of) and certainly the most natural way, to perform the iconic Wraithstrike + Power Attack + Arcane Strike move at level 6. It also qualifies for Abjurant Champion quickly- allowing entry to this nice PrC without undue delay. Sure, if you're starting above then regular Sorcerer or the various Wizard/Fighter gishes starts to look better. But around 6th, the Battle Sorcerer shines. If your game is at or around that level, I'd strongly consider it. At very low levels, Duskblade is king of gishes, but that's another story. |
| #33lycanthrope0Aug 28, 2010 7:20:12 | I think you're mixing up argent savant and abjurant champion. yes and no Agent savant extends any spell with the force descripter but doesnt quicken them. ( to bad because a quickened orb of force every round would be fun for a blaster) |
| #34theriannAug 29, 2010 21:18:10 | Ooh... Quicken'd be fun. Especially with all of my elemental spells being force. Too bad; I'll just have to live with extended. So, I pick disabling spells at 1st, then move into damaging spells at the higher levels? |
| #35lycanthrope0Aug 29, 2010 21:25:06 | yes cover your bases for defence in all forms first. i still think you might be better off playing a wizard over a sorcerer for a solo campaign and for what you are trying to do. just some food for thought on that. |
| #36theriannAug 31, 2010 10:50:10 | I just picked up Races of the Dragon and Book of Nine Swords on ebay, so I'll give those a look once they arrive. Side note: What do you think of the Warmage? (Not for this character, obviously.) |
| #37GavinfoxAug 31, 2010 10:59:58 | I just picked up Races of the Dragon and Book of Nine Swords on ebay, so I'll give those a look once they arrive. Warmage takes a LOT of optimization in order to make it versatile, and a Sorcerer is strictly better, even at the specialty of 'blasting', but is an okay example of a Tier 4 casting class, and balanced with other tier 4 characters (unoptomized rogue, barbarian, ranger, adept, heavily optimized dungeoncrusher fighter). |
| #38theriannAug 31, 2010 16:59:01 | I'm building a character for a different campaign, and using the same build. I plan to take Precocious Apprentice, and I find the wording a little...open. It says, "Choose one 2nd level spell from a school of magic you have access to." Does this mean that my 1st level sorcerer can choose Cure Moderate Wounds or Lesser Restoration as his spell for that feat? I already checked the errata, and it doesn't say anything on this. |
| #39GavinfoxAug 31, 2010 17:24:20 | You generally want to choose something that will give you access to a good reserve feat at level 1! |
| #40theriannAug 31, 2010 17:38:25 | I'm sorry, but I'm new to the boards. What, exactly, do you mean by "Reserve Feat"? |
| #41jgumbyrxAug 31, 2010 17:45:20 | I'm sorry, but I'm new to the boards. What, exactly, do you mean by "Reserve Feat"? Complete Mage -- a bunch of feats that let you have basically "at-will" SLAs without having to spend spells/day (but must still keep some unspent spells) |
| #42darth_versitySep 01, 2010 13:22:40 | The easiest trick with reserve feats at lvl 1 is to have a fire spell and Fiery Burst. This allows you to hit a 2x2 area for 2d6 damage as a standard action whenever you want. Its one of the only ways to actually be of use to a group as a lvl 1 wizard. |
| #43theriannSep 01, 2010 14:52:05 | Sounds fun, but I don't have access to Complete Mage. I know that Precocious Apprentice isn't going to do me a whole lot of good at the higher levels, but it will help me reach them. Most of my play goes from level one on up. Wizards can learn Sleep or Color Spray, which aren't such bad spells in their own right. (Though why anyone would take Sleep over Color Spray is beyond me; I know blind creatures are immune to Color Spray, but it affects more creatures than Sleep can.) |
| #44torynSep 01, 2010 19:22:46 | My next character is going to be a battle sorcerer (i like them). It is for a pvp arena setting and we will never go past level 1. The DM is modifying the E6 rules for us somehow. I am going to take Precocious Apprentice and Fiery Burst. I just need to pick my spells (I don't have access to Spell Compendium, but I can use PHB 1 and 2, as well as Complete Arcane, Unearthed Arcana and Complete Mage). I was thinking about Blade of Fire from Complete Arcane for my 2nd lvl spell. |
| #45aelryinthSep 01, 2010 19:36:34 | I'd recommend a Force Missile Mage/Argent Savant/Abjurant Champion if you're going to go the Battle Sorceror route. Stack enough Metamagic on magic missiles, with enhanced force effects to back it up, and you're good to go. ===Aelryinth |
| #46theriannSep 03, 2010 22:56:24 | Again, I don't have Complete Mage; I find myself wanting it more by the second, though. Anyway, the basis of this build is making energy spells into Force spells. This makes them Extended and gives 'em +1 damage / die. I'm not saying that Magic Missile is bad, (heck, stack enough metamagic on it and it gets really good) but it doesn't do energy damage. So it isn't affected by Elemental Spellcasting or Draconic Power. (I do realize that it doesn't need a large caster level, and that it has no save DC, but I want to use elemental spells.) |
| #47aelryinthSep 04, 2010 10:13:43 | The Force Missile Mage is actually posted online. The level 3 or 4 ability is to give your force missiles elemental damage...ANY elemental damage. ANd yet they still retain the ability of force attacks to hit incorps and stuff. It's one reason I love the class. Any elemental attack on demand is MUCH nicer then one mode. Secondly, add 'Intensify' from the Pathfinder APG, raise the HD limit of Magic missile by +5, and Magic Missile is awesome at all levels. Plus, you get the benefits at LOW level. ==Aelryinth |
| #48theriannSep 04, 2010 11:00:11 | Where's it at? It sounds like a great addition to this build. EDIT: Never mind, just found it. |
| #49FireclaveSep 04, 2010 18:41:04 | Wizards can learn Sleep or Color Spray, which aren't such bad spells in their own right. (Though why anyone would take Sleep over Color Spray is beyond me; I know blind creatures are immune to Color Spray, but it affects more creatures than Sleep can.) Sleep is longer ranged. 110ft minimum compared to 15ft of partically being in melee. Sleep can knock higher level creatures unconcious (4HD compared to 2HD). And sleep lasts much longer at minutes at a time compared to a few rounds at best on the lowest level foes, and only a single round on 5HD foes at a greatly reduced effect. Those advantages make sleep a bit more versatile than Color Spray. If you objective is to take out the target quickly, quietly, and for a decent period of time, and from a relatively safe distance, Sleep is better. It's useful for stealthier operations and can stay useful even at higher levels if you often find yourself having to manuver around low-level guards (such as in an urban campaign) but don't want to spill more blood than necessary. |
| #50theriannSep 10, 2010 17:59:52 | Ok, Races of the Dragon and the Tome of Battle just got here, and I found the Spell Compendium in my Library. Another player is entering, and requested that I ask about the War Hulk PrC. It does give strength like crazy, and gets even better with gestalt rules, which my DM says that we should use. I did come up with a few ideas for a character: First, I'd start with Sorcerer (Metamagic Specialist)/Paladin 1. This gives me a touch of gishy-ness, and the start of my spellcasting career. Feats'd be Draconic Heritage (Amethyst) and Dragon Wings. ('Cause wings are just too cool.) At second level, I'd take a second (and final) level of Sorcerer/Paladin. This hooks me Divine Grace, which gives me my charisma modifier on all saves. Third and fourth are levels of Sorcerer/Swordsage. This nets me my Wis to AC. Feat for third might be Draconic Power; this makes all my Force spells +1 CL/DC. (Which at fifth is all of my spells that do elemental damage.) Fifth level is Sorcerer (Planar Substitution)/Monk to get my Wis to AC (again). At sixth, I take Sorcerer/Cleric. And the Aesthetic Mage feat from Complete Adventurer. This changes both instances of my +Wis to AC to +Cha to AC. And I get lots of turn undead to be used with Divine Metamagic. At this point, my saves are +Cha, and I'm getting Cha x 2 to AC. All of my elemental damage spells are half Force and are +1 DC/CL. The character does have a touch of gish to it, but I don't plan on using it much; the base is supposed to be elemental/force spells. I plan to take 3 levels of Argent Savant at 11th. |
| #51aelryinthSep 10, 2010 22:12:26 | The Wis to AC bonus from swordsage and monk is the same bonus, and doesn't stack, fyi. It's in the errata. As for Warhulk...stay away from that PrC. the only bad thing about it is the BAB, and a Skilled weapon takes complete care of that. ==Aelryinth |
| #52The_Crimson_DawnSep 11, 2010 2:27:55 | its worse than that...its a gestalt game. Think Warhulk with full BAB. Are the warhulk special powers a standard action? If it is factotums become insane though you do lose all those skills... |
| #53malkavonSep 11, 2010 2:29:18 | Since you have Races of the Dragon, you'll want to be a Dragonwrought Desert Kobold. Dragonwrought is a feat, and Desert Kobolds are in the SRD as a variant race. Be venerable (dragonwrought kobolds take no age penalties but get the bonuses), thus netting you +3 Cha with no Con penalty. At 1st level, you can do the Rite of Draconic Passage, but what you're after is the Greater Rite at 6th from the Web Enhancement. This snags you a bonus sorcerer spellcasting level. Not just a caster level, but actual spell progression and everything. You learn spells at the same rate as a wizard now, or you can take a spellcasting level hit and not care compared to a regular sorcerer. |
| #54aelryinthSep 11, 2010 14:01:49 | My DM's comment on the 'venerable' thing was, "Um, how long does it take to become venerable for a kobold? Right then, your venerable kobold will join the rest of the party in about fifty years, then..." which shot down those free mental bonuses like, now. ==Aelryinth |
| #55theriannSep 16, 2010 21:42:15 | This idea I had is something of a mess, and I couldn't make it Kobold without losing Sublime Chord spells. Most of the Feats are open 'till I decide where to go with it, but here goes:
1st: Sorcerer/Human Paragon. Haven't decided on a class skill for Human Paragon, though. Feats are Draconic Heritage and Still Spell (for Dracolexi). 2-5: Sorcerer/Bard. Feat for 3rd is Practical Metamagic (Still Spell). 6th: Dracolexi/Sorcerer. Feat is Empower Spell. 7-8: Dracolexi/Bard. Eschew Materials comes bonus at 7th. 9th: Dracolexi/Monk. Feat is Ascetic Mage. 10th: Dracolexi/Bard. 11th: Sorcerer/Sublime Chord. 12-13: Dracolexi/Human Paragon. Human Paragon bonus caster levels go to Sublime Chord. Feats for 12th are Practical Metamagic (Empower Spell) and one open. 14-16: Dracolexi/Bard. Feat for 15th is open. 17-20: Sorcerer/Sublime Chord. Feat for 18 is also open.
The build gives full Sorcerer casting, 10th level Bard casting, and 7th level Sublime Chord. Caster levels are 17th for Bard, and 20 for Sorcerer and Sublime Chord. The open feats can be Draconic ones or Metamagic, depending.
What do you think? |
| #56malkavonOct 09, 2010 23:25:51 | My DM's comment on the 'venerable' thing was, "Um, how long does it take to become venerable for a kobold? Right then, your venerable kobold will join the rest of the party in about fifty years, then..." which shot down those free mental bonuses like, now. Uh, congratulations? Seriously, what was the point of that, other than to tell us that your DM is a dick? "Waaah, my DM didn't let me use Venerable Dragonwrought blah blah blah". Who cares? I've played under DMs who were fine with it, and both of our anecdotal accounts mean precisely zilch. It's a valid option within the rules, and if the DM is going to deny me the ability to write my own backstory, then I'll walk from his game. Because control freak DMs universally suck and I don't need to play with people like that. |
| #57waazraathOct 10, 2010 4:48:15 | Uh, no offense, but seriously, what is the point of you replying this to a month old post? Besides the point that to imply that a DM is a 'dick' and a 'control freak' if (s)he doesn't allow the venerable dragonwrought trick goes a bit too far imho, if you consider the anecdote itself irrelevant, why would your opinion on it do have relevance? |
| #58aelryinthOct 11, 2010 21:55:53 | aye, and I find any DM that allows in a race giving free +3 to all mental buffs to be a bit strange. ==Aelryinth |
| #59awaken_D_M_golemOct 13, 2010 16:46:21 | Here's the link to: Warmages Blow Goats For Pocket Change OR Why You Should Play A Sorcerer Instead community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... (man giggle) Hey, you can play Battle Sorc if you want to. Fighter 1 / Psion 19 is way waayyy better Cleric or Druid is better (sigh) Sorc with the standard CO board goodies is better, and conceptually similar Think of it this way ... take a Cleric and ditch an entire Domain of spells and spells available, give him psi-Vigor and Divine Power in exchange, just the two spells, all you need is Martial weapon prof, to surpass it. |
| #60theriannOct 14, 2010 21:34:11 | Yeah, I pretty much get the "Battle Sorcerer sucks" bit. The Cleric isn't bad, but I'm looking at the Spirit Shaman, and it look pretty decent. It's sort of like a cross between the Wizard and Sorcerer casting types, but it gets Druid spells instead. The class features are limited in focus, but after 6th, just prestige into something... |
| #61awaken_D_M_golemOct 15, 2010 15:26:19 | Ah, well ... Xeraph has(had) the Spirit Shaman guide. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... I'm not helpful on that one, but on post #4 he has a Healbot version that you could go: Frontliner 1 (instead of Aasimar 1) / SS 18 / Cleric 1 Frontliner could be Ranger or whatever, for flavor and survivability early. |
| #62The_Crimson_DawnOct 17, 2010 17:10:48 | I will vouch that Spirit Shamans are fun. Try knight of the raven from ravenloft it is awesome and when combined with the spirit shaman makes an awesome undead killer (and all round great melee cleric type). |