Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo’s Guide to Monks
Making the Most of What you Have (When Casters Believe What They Have Is Already Ridiculously Good)
“We need to be enlightened by the OMFGWTFBBQ Ultimate Monk Build” – Solo
I. Introduction
Face it. If you play a non-caster, a monk in particular, chances are that caster players or wizard fans will laugh in your face, try to mop the floor with you and have a chat with a fellow caster while doing it (range: unlimited). Ever since the logicninja’s Batman concept hit the boards (and likely before that), casters and wizards in particular seem to be UBER. More astoundingly, actually, often even the non-casting classes appear to be a way more viable choice for...everything: fighting, scouting, etc.
And, to add insult to injury, it appears as if the 4th edition gave up on monks altogether.
However, this guide is intended to provide some ideas to make monks (and you can easily apply stuff found here to other non-casters) more of a challenge/fun to play throughout all levels. Feel free to add ideas and comments!
Specifically, it can be a guide for, say,
- players, when you play a monk in a party with highly-powered casters – and thus also highly-powered caster oppostion (basically, a proof vs said players kindly asking to play a caster instead lest you spoil their fun)
- DMs, create some npc monk challenges to your caster players
- Overall inspiration to show the monk is definitely balanced with all other core classes
For simplicity and better usability in most campaigns, as well as help for beginning players (as well as my own limited purse to buy rule books), I’ll restrict it to generally available core rules (PHB, DMG, MM, SRD excepting psionics and divine domain rules) – so no celerity combos, timestopped maws of chaos (whatever that is) on the caster side and no belt of extra actions, vows of xy or or feats that push your damage to the colossal lvl 18 monk size by level 9. If you wish to (ab)use all the many great companions out there, you should still be able to use the principles outlined here as a source of ideas.
A great link for monks outside core in particular can be found here…
Non-core monk by emeraldstreak
Monk as balanced? Any good at all?
Here is where some of the more heated debates on this subject has happened on these boards.
And for a highly entertaining read, Talic once started a playing thread of a 20th level group with monk played by lord_khaine, barbarian by Worira, sorcerer by Solo (who else?) and cleric by Rachel Lorelei to prove how weak monks are.
Unfortunately, the excercise stopped in the midst of the first serious encounter – up to that point it was unable to prove anything at all. What the thread (and its accompanying rules discussion thread) nicely illustrated, though, was a great many hints how ultra-high-level play might really work.
Will put in more links as I come across them!
Ah, and let us not forget: the monk while focusing on what this class can do greatly (being a bane to casters) should not become an idiot specialist. He/she (for simplicity, and with due respect to the female posters here, I’ll use the male abbreviation henceforth throughout if you forgive me…) has also to fight monsters and other non-casters. While the monk might be ideal to specialise in overcoming magic-reliant opponents (it’s simply a facet of the PHB recommendations of spy, assassin, infiltrator and opportunist combatant), some tricks should help him survive long enough to actually reach that enemy caster through his minions. Or in a caster-rare (not magic-poor!) campaign. Or whatever.
Here it comes…
II. The Very Basics of Monkery
As logicninja has immortally put it:
“The traditional adventuring party has four people, filling the roles of Meat-Shield, Skill-Monkey, Heal-*****, and Batman.
You're--as Frank Miller put--the ******* Batman.”
As a monk you’re – as Frank Miller would have paraphrased as well – the ******* Joker!
Relying on tricks and unusual stuff to overcome the physically…er magically stronger Batman. Perform is even a class skill, so you could tell some jokes to entertain your desperate enemies and awestruck adventuring teammates while you squish the casters and face everything else as easily as other non-casters.
1. Key Insights on Giamonk strategy (and: what the Joker would say….)
1) “Where does he get those wonderful toys?” – The Joker
Be prepared for a harsh truth: Magic is cheap in core 3.5. And the “Giamonk” (courtesy Kurald Galain) intends to make full use of it. In that way, he is quite close to the classic gish…
The Batman may think he is special, but in a magic world as envisioned in the core 3.5 rules, everyone will want to have magic. And everyone gets it, thanks to four major goodies for all classes
- fellow pc casting. This is the way assumed by the game (for instance, the enlarge spell has almost no use for the sorcerer or wizard, but it is greatly helpful for fighting characters). In many instances, though, the non-caster or monk needs to be on his own..
- npc casting (this could be helped by, but does not need the leadership feat)
- wealth by level guidelines and thus, permanent magic items
- Use Magic Device (UMD), either cross-class or class. It does not really matter, since the greatest bargains, the wands simulating ALL 1-4 spell levels are safely usable with just a UMD score of +19. And even one rank of UMD and total bonus of +0 will allow you to eventually activate a wand…only a “1” rolled without +19 UMD will mean stopping to use that item for the day, but you could carry several for the same effect, lowering your risk greatly. Wands are the cheapest way for non-casters to obtain non-pc buffs. Based on the usual casting and spell levels of arcane and divine spells, level 1 spells, it is 15 gp per use, for level 2 spells 90 gp, for level 3 spells 225 gp and for level 4 spells 420 gp.
Great level 1-4 spells to get in store (some are range: personal)
Show
Level 1: Enlarge, Cure Lights Wounds, Chill Touch (also helps vs low-level undead; better than shocking grasp due to the STR damage potential), Faerie Fire (great cheap anti-invisibility tactics for all levels), Mage Armour (though you should preferably get that with your 1st level pearl of power from a party arcane caster or npc for longer duration), Bless Weapon (good for improved critical- unarmed strike builds), Obscuring Mist (great cheap low-level control vs missile and spell attacks), Shillelagh (the staff is a monk weapon, so you can flurry with it – and it will deal 3d6+1 damage when you are enlarged, and it counts as a magic weapon)
Level 2: Silence (the poor man’s AMF, remarkably effective). Good hour/lvl buffs are darkvision and false life. Then possibly bull’s strength (for grapple boost) and heroism (from the bard list, lasts 40 minutes then) and ghoul touch (allowing no save vs the parlysis effect)
Basically, for touch attacks at first and second level, chill touch and ghoul touch are the most effective, while shocking grasp and touch of idiocy (possibly shutting down enemy spell casting without a save) are more stylish for a true “Joker”.
Level 3: Fly, Blink
Level 4: Divine Power, Holy Sword
Will update as soon as I get new ideas!
Level 1: Enlarge, Cure Lights Wounds, Chill Touch (also helps vs low-level undead; better than shocking grasp due to the STR damage potential), Faerie Fire (great cheap anti-invisibility tactics for all levels), Mage Armour (though you should preferably get that with your 1st level pearl of power from a party arcane caster or npc for longer duration), Bless Weapon (good for improved critical- unarmed strike builds), Obscuring Mist (great cheap low-level control vs missile and spell attacks), Shillelagh (the staff is a monk weapon, so you can flurry with it – and it will deal 3d6+1 damage when you are enlarged, and it counts as a magic weapon)
Level 2: Silence (the poor man’s AMF, remarkably effective). Good hour/lvl buffs are darkvision and false life. Then possibly bull’s strength (for grapple boost) and heroism (from the bard list, lasts 40 minutes then) and ghoul touch (allowing no save vs the parlysis effect)
Basically, for touch attacks at first and second level, chill touch and ghoul touch are the most effective, while shocking grasp and touch of idiocy (possibly shutting down enemy spell casting without a save) are more stylish for a true “Joker”.
Level 3: Fly, Blink
Level 4: Divine Power, Holy Sword
Will update as soon as I get new ideas!
He makes a couple of assumptions which I think are silly.
1- Monks can use low level spells, and are therefore better than casters.
The same can be said of any class who puts ranks in UMD (cross class for monks) But spellcasters can do so without ranks, and without spending money.
2- A minor one, but he refrences how monks have "double" the hp of casters. Average monk gets d8+con. Average caster gets d4+con. (unless divine). monk on average will have 4.5+con mod hp. Average caster will get 2.5+con mod hp. Not only is that not double (by just a little) but once you factor in the +con mod portion of the equation the gap becomes less and less. Add in the MAD of the monk, and odds are the caster will have a better con. I wouldn't be suprised to see casters with more HP than monks.
3- Monks are the best at grappling. i would argue fighters, druids and wizards are all better at it than the monk. Fighters who can have a better chance of success thanks to higher BAB, and more feats to devote. Druids for turning into giant monsters with improved grab, and wizards for the same.
4- "Mad does not exist" The OP says that MAD does not exist, or rather that it exists to the same extent in all classes. This is flat out wrong. A monk needs str, dex, con, int, wis and if you plan to UMD, cha. That is every stat in order to be a decent member of your class. A wizard? he needs int. Druids? they need wisdom, and if they plan to tank con. Sure you can say a monk does not need a high wisdom, and that it is just icing on the cake extra, but the monk also is not proficent in any armor, and looses class features if he wears it. So in reality wisdom is more like the batter in the cake.
It is a decent guide on how to play a monk well, "pretend you are a caster with UMD" but it doesn't really show how a monk is vetter than a caster at all. I expect someone with more experience to come along and point out a good bit more holes.
First of all, it begins wrong. Wizards are powerful on duels but they really shine in parties. An interesting duel would be one between the wizard's buffed party and an all-monk party :P
- blocking their somatic components (grappling) -Dimensional Door or Alter Self or Fly.
- blocking their material components (disarming) -Material-less spells.
- blocking their vocal components (grappling, using silence spell effect) -That works, but guess what :P silent spell.
- blocking all actions (stunning) -Works, i don't know any popular spell that blocks this (well except stuff that won't let the attack hit -mirror image, displacement, etc).
- blocking their line of sight (blinding, obscuring vision) -Don't know how you will get these.
- blocking their line of effect (force effects, use of full cover) -If you get on the defensive, that'd surely be a mistake. Wizards can destroy people at melee if buffed enough.
- blocking their area effects (evasion, improved evasion) -If you are against a warmage :P
- blocking their range (fast moving out of range. Great vs summons and the usual temporary buffs that you recognised before with Spellcraft) -erm, what? Monks get what, +50ft speed? Assuming they use spring attack (otherwise it's no use) they'd even be inside the close (25ft + 5ft/2 levels) range.
- blocking their refreshment methods (attacking during prayer, learning, disrupting sleep etc.) -works, but it's an exhaustive method and you need to make sure that they won't take care of you on the spot. Also after 9 or so level, they can sleep inside a rope trick.
- blocking all magic (Anti-magic-field, spell resistance, saving throws, certain force effects; although recent magic item compendium rules which can be seen to update the core rules appear to have AMF no longer block line of effect for magic – courtesy Lord_Silvanos. It is irrelevant for the AMF grappling tactics, though.) -AMF works, but you need to reach your target first and grapple him. Still even AMF cannot break the invoke magic - dimension door.
Live with it people. Spellcasters rule both the mechanics and the roleplaying aspect of D&D.
Base: Martial Monk 6
PrC1: Fist of Zuoken 5 (for the feat)
PrC2: Thrallherd 9 - need ExKn(mindlink)
Stats: Almost nothing
Feat of Note: Tashalatora
Result: Monk~20, I suck, but my "cohort" is better than yours.
Now, THAT is an interesting idea, that wizards shine in the roleplay. Could you expand on that?
Check the stories and novels. Most high-ranking individuals are wizards with archmage levels (e.g. Faerun). Rulers with levels in martial classes (i mean most of the levels of course) are rare.
Check the stories and novels. Most high-ranking individuals are wizards with archmage levels (e.g. Faerun). Rulers with levels in martial classes (i mean most of the levels of course) are rare.
Aaaah. Yeah, that's pretty much true. In High Magic, everyone noteworthy is a magic user, pretty much, while S&S and Low magic has martial characters as heroes.
Check the stories and novels. Most high-ranking individuals are wizards with archmage levels (e.g. Faerun). Rulers with levels in martial classes (i mean most of the levels of course) are rare.
Buh? For Faerun, King Azoun IV of Cormyr was a fighter (and so is the Steel Regent), Open Lord Piergeiron Paladinson of Waterdeep is a paladin, King Bruenor Battlehammer of Mithral Hall is a fighter, Lord Dhelt of Elturel is a paladin... I could go on and on all day. The majority of temporal leaders in the Realms are not primary casters.
Who would you want to be, the guy manipulating the universe to his will at higher levels, or the guy using a shinier stick to hit things with than at lower levels?
Buh? For Faerun, King Azoun IV of Cormyr was a fighter (and so is the Steel Regent), Open Lord Piergeiron Paladinson of Waterdeep is a paladin, King Bruenor Battlehammer of Mithral Hall is a fighter, Lord Dhelt of Elturel is a paladin... I could go on and on all day. The majority of temporal leaders in the Realms are not primary casters.
- Fzoul
- Storm
- Simbul
- Szass Tam
- Blackstaff
- Alustriel
- Manshoon
- Elminster
- Halaster
Not to mention the other sisters, the zulkirs and other powerful spellcasters.
Druids don't actually need anything beyond Wis and Con... maybe INT if they need more skillpoints.
Monks need all the physical scores and Wis at the very least. and INT for skillpoints.
That said, there's one thing that is always consistant whenever I read a single phrase:
“The monk has no specialty, so at best makes a nice 5th team member”
Whenever you read "This class makes a great 5th member of your party" it = "This class isn't good enough to be one of the first 4, but fills the waste of space position admirably"
That said - a commoner with armfuls of magic items and maxed UMD (as cross class) isn't all bad either.
Still, even in low magic campaigns you may hear something about a legendary spellcaster. Martial characters are just not cool enough.
Which is why all the cool people who prefer asskickery love the Tome of Battle.
Lets see, where do I start?
1.
A commoner with UMD can kill anyone with careful planning. The OP board does not make builds solely dependent on UMD.
2.
Grapple in a human vs monster envioment at high levels is impossible. So you were poly morphed into a 12 headed hydra. Who the hell do you think cast it on you in the first place? And who has access to dispel again (human to hydra is only a 7)?
3.
- Duelist, the only one listed I won't pass off as a bad idea.
- shadowdancer, the class sucks, HiPS is great, but weak vs daylight, blindsight, darkvision, and in this case since the monk don't have SA. Arcane Sight.
- Horizon walker, trade in 6 levels of anything remotely like monk advancement for DD in a monk focused thread. Great idea!
Oh, and you can buy a masterwork tool for 50gp at the first level, it can give that super rare +2 comp to listen.
- Assassin prestige class, a bard makes a better assassin than a monk.
4.
I still say a Fighter 4 / Barbarian 1 / Fist of the Forest 3 / Shiba Protector 1 / Fighter +10 / Anything +1 with Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, and a monk's belt replaces a monk. 2d10 unarmed damage, all but the last weapon chain feat, and 19 BAB. It even shares the MAD trait, it wants some str for damage, a little dex for AC is always nice, con for HP and AC, wis for attack, damage, and AC, and we can all use more int for skills. Of course, if you can't afford 30s in everything, feel free to dump cha and put 10s in str/dex/int.
5.
A Dark Shadow Walker Whisper Gnome Rogue 1 can SA a 12th wizard to death (and for that matter, pretty much anything) with proper planning and lack of the heart spells. Most posters here acknowledge that but we don't see the rogue being called uber and having 15 handbooks devoted to them now do we? Outside of game conditions and the fact everyone can have UMD wizards just have more, and better choices for optimization. A mage of the arcane order using uncanny forethought has a batbelt. Everyone else have a toolbelt.
So his first arguement boils down to "said class can take UMD as a cross class skill and use magic items or have spells cast on him, therefore said class doesn't suck."
and then the gibberish gets worse....
The handbook is very circumspect, and I dislike that it is Core only (has its uses, but should only be a note in a full handbook). More to the point, given some minor spellcasting, Monks are at least on par with other melees (from the OPs stand). Good tactics offered, with the usual 'stuns pretty much stop anything' line. Nothing particularly new given. Most of what was said, everyone here knew. Good guide to monks if you aren't that familiar with playing them- better than our current guide for that purpose, IMO- the current Monk Handbook is more what we are used to seeing, which is to say, you know the basics of the class, here's how to increase the efficiency.
I like that the use of non-caster reliant spells is noted, which most (almost all) melee handbooks don't tell- and again. Who benefits most from spells? The people on the front lines. If the caster is being directly benifitted from a spell more than the meleers, then the caster is doing something wrong.
...this post has turned into an outstanding amount of blah... ah well. Point is, from the Joker stand, that monks make excellent anti-caster (you all know it- its just that that shouldn't be the main goal of any character, but a facet of abilities)
And... I will say that Monks, regardless of opponent abilities, are most likely to shine in BBEG combat- stunning fist and general ability not to die make them very useful there. I suppose, that +magekiller should be the Monk's primary role. Scouting, trap-tripping (if for some reason your party lacks a rogue OR celestial monkey), etc, should be secondary roles.
As a monk you’re – as Frank Miller would have paraphrased as well – the ******* Joker!
By that he must mean his handbook/the monk class is nothing but a joke.
By that he must mean his handbook/the monk class is nothing but a joke.
And as pro-monk as I am, this guide is like the opposite of monk optimization.
By that he must mean his handbook/the monk class is nothing but a joke.
Not to mention that he seemed to forgot that the joker is beaten by batman on a regular basis.
....
...
.... actually... you know...its not even worth it..
Maybe this is a spoof? I mean like itentionally meant to be funny like the fighter X post...
On second thought....
Maybe this is a spoof? I mean like itentionally meant to be funny like the fighter X post...
I am fairly sure that he is 100% sincere in his belief of monks being a competitive class and the fact that core 3.5e is completely balanced.
First, you have all failed to appreciate the structure of this guide. The constant blocks of black text serve to filter out the technical backgrounds that not everyone might want to read, and the Joker references interspersed through everything make the article both humorous and classy. This is in stark contrast to the complete failure that is the "standard" of blue/red/light blue text and guides that aren't sprawling with information - the more you sprawl, the more information you have, and the more information you have, the better the guide.
With that out of the way,
I agree with absolutely everything he said. He's absolutely right.
There's almost nothing that the wizard can do that the monk can't do.
If the wizard Polymorphs into a hydra, the wizard on the monk's team can Polymorph HIM into a hydra - which happens to have stunning fist, flurry of blows, and a higher BAB and hit die.
If the wizard uses the ultimate core tactic (see core wizard vs. psion) of turtling in a wall of stone, a prismatic sphere outside of that, and shapechanged into a dreadwraith, all the monk has to do is hide from the wizard (who can't see him anyway) and hide from the celestial great wyrm gold dragons that are gated in until the durations expire, then the monk can defeat the wizard with his UMD'd shape changed stone wall prismatic sphere, with the higher BAB - it's what YIDM's psion did to WIN the wizard vs. psion fight.
There is absolutely NOTHING that a wizard can do that a monk can't do, thanks to wizards being on the monk's team and UMD.
Especially since the DM banned all of the wizard's crazy spells, such as METEOR SWARM, and kept the bad ones, like Evard's black tentacles (MONK WANNABE), grease (Ooooh! the floor's wet.), glitterdust (Great, you just spent a 2nd-level spell to replicate MY spot modifier), alter self (so I can look like a dwarf instead of a human?), draconic polymorph (what's the point if you can't cast it on the monk?), and timestop (What's the point of 1d4 + 1 extra rounds if you can't do anything important, like more flurry of blows?). Who's laughing now, wizard?
It would seem that the wizard is utterly screwed.
However, there is one thing that this monk guide failed to consider. It saved the wizard against the lightning warrior, it will save the wizard against this monk: the familiar. The familiar, as was proven in that other guide, is an engine of destruction, charging into combat and serving as a nigh-omnipotent source of terrible spells. The monk will be "hiding" from the wizard when he sees a little rat scurry across the floor, that touches him and suddenly he turns into goo (Touch of Juiblex ftw). The monk guide's failure to address the most powerful class feature in the game is proof against its existence, and once again demonstrates why the wizard is the strongest class in the game, with the lightning warrior a (somewhat) close second.
Gee, I can honestly say that I have never thought of it that way before.
I've actually had it explained to me that way before. Not. Even. Joking.
*Stuff*
Either an epic bluff...
...or an epic diplomacy...
-.-
The guy in the OP "guide" has a few decent points, but some of the stuff he says is really out of left field and/or grasping at straws.
There is absolutely NOTHING that a wizard can do that a monk can't do, thanks to wizards being on the monk's team and UMD.
Other than cast spells right? Unless you're some how thinking a wizard should devote 8 hours a day and his XP crafting a single scroll scroll for you. In which case, that explains most of your post...
Especially since the DM banned all of the wizard's crazy spells, such as METEOR SWARM,
FYI, Meteor Swarm sucks.
Also, sure, if you ban enough stuff, a wizard would suck.
and kept the bad ones, like Evard's black tentacles (MONK WANNABE),
Monk wannabe? O.o
Monk, tries to grapple one foe, loses dex to ac while doing it, gets beat up in the process.
Evard's Black Tentacles, tries to grapple everyone in the area, the wizard gets to run around & cast, and does not take damage from his choice of actions.
I won't even dignify the monk and say he is trying to be like the spell.
grease (Ooooh! the floor's wet.),
Grease don't work so well on monks, however, it is a 1st level it does, and later on, why pretend the wizard is going to use their second lowest spell they have? Does anyone here pretend the monk is going to dig a hole to put his head in as proof a monk is weak? Oh, and wait for it...
glitterdust (Great, you just spent a 2nd-level spell to replicate MY spot modifier),
You have a +40 spot check? Wow, nice.
To bad you have to beat their hide check by 20 inorder to pin point their location as a move action. They still have concealment (50% chance whatever the monk tries fails) though. Something that glitterdust removes.
Did I mention glitterdust is also a save of suck spell too? You'll auto fail all your spot checks if you lose.
alter self (so I can look like a dwarf instead of a human?),
Actully, you can use alter self to aquire a high natural armor rating at a really low level. Shift into a troglodyte for a +6 bonus to natural armor.
5th level
Monk's Attack: +7 = +2 (BAB) + 4 (18 str) + 1 (enchantment)
Wizard's AC: 20 = 10 (base) + 2 (14 dex) + 2 (+1 buckler) + 6 (natural armor)
60% chance the monk's turn does nothing. And that is with the generous amount of 18 str.
I suppose you'll counter claim saying the monk uses a touch attack and starts a grapple.
Monk's Grapple: +10 = +2 (BAB) + 4 (str) + 4 (improved grapple)
Wizard under grease: +13 = +2 (BAB) +1 (str) + 10 (that spell you knocked from above called grease)
The wizard's bonus is higher. In two levels, though weart of water, the wizard becomes immune to grapples too.
and timestop (What's the point of 1d4 + 1 extra rounds if you can't do anything important, like more flurry of blows?).
idk, how about casting a few walls or force around the monk?
Or summoning ten creatures for a +20 bonus from aid other actions making the wizard better at, well, everything.
Maybe the wizard has UMD and wishes to cast Divine Power off a wand, and a few other buffs. At least they won't be spending time buffing them selves while they are getting blasted like the monk will.
Who's laughing now, wizard?
Yes, the wizard is laughing right now. At you.
I am astonished at this response; you guys are getting it all wrong.
Given the fact you have proved you do not understand how you use spells and claim the weakest 9th level spell in D&D is crazy. I'd say you're getting it wrong.
***
I found your post funny, and I was nice enough to point out why. Try not to waste this lesson.
Not the biggest fan of DC, though. Batman, Superman, Green Lantern (Gold edition was funniest), Aqua man? I mean...
Boo.
Batman loses based solely on character association. Sorry guys.
"I'm rich, so I'll fight crime" doesn't fly for me.
But seriously, what was this thread about again?
Meteor swarm RULES. That's 18d6 damage on everything there, no attack roll or anything. That fighter thinks he's so good when he's taking greater weapon specialization for + 4 damage, but that's not gonna compare to my 18d6. Yeah, and most DMs do ban enough stuff, so wizards do suck. This is for a practical game, not a really optimized party like a samurai (KATANAS RULE THEY CAN CUT A TANK IN HALF, also, I <3 Naruto), healer (focused on healing, not that other garbage that clerics would be doing instead of HEALING), shadowcaster (sure, they get less spells per day, but those spells are SO MUCH BETTER!!! weak class, though, because it's still a primary spellcaster), and a lightning warrior (someone has to be a waste of space)
Those black tentacles only do 1d6+4 damage, and the check increases linearly with level, while the monk is transforming himself into a hulking behemoth of doom using UMD and getting a MASSIVE grapple bonus. he also gets flurry of blows for multiple grapple checks.
It's nice to see that you agree with me on grease making the floor wet and being silly.
The monk might not get a + 40 spot check, but it's enough to see that invisible wizard! Crank that WIS up, baby!
I'm not failing that save with my obscenely high WIS. and the party wizard is going to cast see invisibility on me, so I can see the hiding wizard. Or the party wizard could cast glitterdust for a + 40 spot check ON TOP OF MINE. Monks RULE!
That monk's at + 15 after he gets Enlarge Person'ed by UMD/the party wizard
You're ignoring the fact that the monk can just UMD teleport out of that wall of force thing.... time stop is awful and you know it, if I had 1d4+1 rounds of flurry of blows, it would be awesome but since you can't do anything except run away, it's a stupid 9th level spell that is just wasting metamagic'ed-lightning bolt slots
The wizard is laughing, though, because the familiar killed the monk
WILD STALLYNS RULE
...I'm so slow :embarrass
Seriously, though, everything in the OP made me lololololol
:D
lol
I knew you were joking, because there is no way anyone could ever think a katana can cut though a TANK! Tanks have like a bajillion layers of urinium-enforced armor. Naruto sucks too, Mystic Gohan could kick his rear like twice over. You know what? Mystic Gohan can beat a thousand Narutos armed with katanans!!1 Saiyins ae like superman-ninjas, only better. And mystic is ABOVE EPIC!
:D
lol
Oh, puhlease. Kirika puts a bullet through Gohan while he's doing his 4 episode long "huff and puff" routine. [/threadjack]
There are times when there's just no use arguing with some people.
I have not had a problem with MAD stats since you just need ok stats not maxed for most ablitys to work. Yes a higher score helps but it is not needed. What if you have a Wis 12 for your monk you do not get much added to your AC but if you take a level of fighter or any other class that would let you use light armor you would be ok. And it is possible to go back to being a monk you just need the right feat which is in ECS.
I say if the caster is so great why would other classes not use the mage's bag of trick if they could. UMD is one just one way of doing so. I my self like the take one level of a spellcasting class and the feat practiced spellcaster. This lets you use wands of up to 3rd level with out a lot of problems. This gets you most of the buff spell. Now use minor schemas from MoE and you are set to go. This trick for stealing the mage's bag of trick work ok.
So it is not to hard get access to level three spells for any class. So I think it is ok to say that a monk could be using magic just not as much as most spellcasters.
Now the hide until the spellcasters buffs run out is good, just not much fun.
Why is it that some people think that only spellcasters should be able to use magic and turn around and say spellcaster the best because of magic? UMD is a way that others can use magic and as far as I know any class can take ranks in it even if it is a cross-class skill. What is better a Monk using UMD or a commoner using UMD? Well if the amount of gold is equal and the stats then the monk would be stronger. The reason:If M>C then M+X>C+X
Is UMD=spellcasting ablity? If so I can see why the Spellcasters do not want any one using it since then they would be the ones that are under powered.
So it is not to hard get access to level three spells for any class. So I think it is ok to say that a monk could be using magic just not as much as most spellcasters.
No one says its wrong. What they will save is everyone can. And if everyone can, then there is no point in trying to use it to claim any class is weak, decent, or powerful based off using UMD.
What does matter is a monk class sucks, and there are PrCs that replace it. Don't feel bad though. Monk's only have to deal with a PrC here or there and an item, all of which can be used to create a better monk. Sorcerers have to put up with some new trick for wizards every freaking book. And the poor paladin had to wait until complete champion came out to even tempt people to use it instead of a cleric based fist of raizel (with holy warrior).
Are there any ranger replacement classes?
The monk is a good class. I like to dip two or more levels in it for the saves, feats, and evasion.
That's the problem. Monks are really good only as a 2-lv dip. +3 to all saves, evasion (which is retained in light armour), 3 bonus feats and possibly flurry or decisive strike (depending on your build), but it pretty much loses steam after that.
I say if the caster is so great why would other classes not use the mage's bag of trick if they could.
Because it says a lot about a class if he has to resort to emulating the strategies of another class rather than relying on his own merits/class features.
By your explanation, a commoner could in theory take down a dragon by using a candle of invocation to gate in some high cr monster. Does that mean the commoner is on par with a wizard who can cast gate?
By all means go ahead. I don't see how your monk can have the money to fuel his UMD spree. If it is spells you want, why not just play a caster? 2 wizards > 1 wizard + 1 monk.
I wonder if he ever tried to prove the expert is a good class this way.
WBL AND DISPOSABLE INCOME
The game provides for PC's to have certain amounts of wealth at certain levels. This is "Wealth by level", or WBL. It achieves this by granting an average amount of awarded treasure per encounter.
Listings for both of these are found on DMG, p.135, and DMG, p.51.
When you take the average amount of treasure per encounter, and divide it by 4, you get the amount of treasure that each party member should make in that encounter, per level.
In D&D, the experience table is scaled so that 14 even CR encounters will get you a level.
Thus, taking the information on Table 3-3 (DMG, p.51) and dividing it by 4 (for party division), then multiplying by 14 (for all the encounters in the character level), you get the total amount a PC should earn in that level, on average.
But that's greater than the current wealth of the PC + wealth gained. It puts a PC above WBL. This is intentional. The designers put in extra earnings to reflect the use of items that are disposable. These items are used, and then are no more, such as wands, potions, scrolls, food, poisons, alchemical items, and the like.
The table I derived for monk (class only matters at level 1, where starting gold is different) is thus:
[table=header] Level/Next Level | Gold allocated for Disposable items
1 to 2 | 162.5
2 to 3 | 300
3 to 4 | 450
4 to 5 | 600
5 to 6 | 1,600
6 to 7 | 1,000
7 to 8 | 1,100
8 to 9 | 2,900
9 to 10 | 2,750
10 to 11 | 3,300
11 to 12 | 4,250
12 to 13 | 12,300
13 to 14 | 5,500
14 to 15 | 9,500
15 to 16 | 17,000
16 to 17 | 18,000
17 to 18 | 26,000
18 to 19 | 24,500
19 to 20 | 100,000[/table]
Costs for items per level (assuming used 1 time in each encounter):
Potion (50gp) - 700gp
Potion (250gp - Enlarge Person) - 3,500gp
Wand (750gp) - 210gp (cost per item reaches DMG advised 25% total WBL at level 4, first obtainable with 83.3% WBL at level 2)
Wand (11,250, or level 3 spell, such as heroism) - 3,150 gp
Thus, the first level that you could reliably use a standard 50gp potion once an encounter, and not fall behind WBL, is level 5.
The first level you could reliably use Enlarge Person potions? Level 11.
The first level you could use a level 1, 750gp wand? By disposable income, level 2. By DMG advised WBL guidelines, level 4. First time viable in combat? Well, without heroism, level 13-14, depending on who you ask.
First time the Level 3 heroism spell is viable in a wand? Level 10, and it'll use so much WBL, you won't have enough left over for a level 1 wand without falling behind. Level 11 gets you the ability to use it and afford wands, without falling behind.
Thus, we can conclude that potions, which use a combat action, are not viable to make a character combat effectiveness until almost the level you could attain reliable UMD use with wands, as a monk. Wands are more cost effective, but are not reliable until level 11, at the earliest, unless you want to fall behind the WBL curve... And that's with heroism correctly guessed before every enounter (with a 30 minute duration, it's a bit rough to get perfect). Without that, you're mitigating the effectiveness of your actions, with actions that are not even sure to be taken, much less successful.
Either an epic bluff...
...or an epic diplomacy...
-.-
...or a really high intimidate check.
Quick, does anyone feel intimidated?
Anyone?
Guess not.
I found your post funny, and I was nice enough to point out why. Try not to waste this lesson.
Ugh. Even if you have missed the tone, there's no need for using derogatory phrases like the last sentence.
I forced myself through the blacked-out text, and learned a few things. But good Christ, could you use those little spoiler buttons instead?
What's with the blackened text does it just get crazier?
It's a spoiler. It IS the same kind of thing. You have to highlight it to see it.
The problem is that in the GiantITP forums, you use a [noparse][spoiler][/noparse] tag to make the hidden boxes, where as in these forums, it makes the background black. What the OP is looking for is the [noparse][sblock][/noparse] tag.
Yeah, it's pretty annoying. I stopped reading them after the 2nd one. :P
Ugh. Even if you have missed the tone, there's no need for using derogatory phrases like the last sentence.
Just because there is no need to do something doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.
There is no need for me to give money to charity, for example, but I still do it.
Do any of you think a Handbook on how the steal part of the mage's bag of tricks is a good ideal?;)
Just because there is no need to do something doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.
There is no need for me to give money to charity, for example, but I still do it.
Wait, so you're saying insulting someone for making a joke is the same as giving money to charity?
Ladies and gentlemen, I believe that what we have here is a prime case of someone having Missed The Point™.
That is just what I was trying to do, thanks. :D
From Curtis
Now is there a Handbook on how to steal the mage's bag of tricks? I have no problems with useing magic to make martial classes work better, and I think a lot spellcasters like to try a get some of the martial classes things as well. But if I am going to try and steal the mage's bag of tricks I my as well try to get as much of it as I can. I mainly want the buffs but if I can get more than that why not.
- Fzoul
Storm- Simbul
- Szass Tam
Blackstaff- Alustriel
ManshoonElminsterHalaster
Not to mentionthe other sisters,the zulkirs andother powerful spellcasters.
The ones I struck through are not rulers of nations, which is what you said.
Check the stories and novels. Most high-ranking individuals are wizards with archmage levels (e.g. Faerun). Rulers with levels in martial classes (i mean most of the levels of course) are rare.
Do i mention nations?
- Blackstaff = Lord Mage of Waterdeep, leader of the Moonstars.
- Manshoon = Founder and Leader of the Zhentarim.
- Elminster = probably not.
- Halaster = Controls the Undermountain.
And of course it's completely wrong to scratch out the "other powerful spellcasters", because there are quite a few who rule, like drow wizards and clerics, too many to remember or find.
guess wich one is cooler?
Well, you have the guy the kills the dragon, and the guy that kills the dragon, bind a balor, travel to other planes for the weekend and stop time so he can do all that while using divination to see the climate for the next decades in his nation, so all communers can do their job better.
guess wich one is cooler?
The guy that just kills the dragon. He's got the least amount of work to do, clearly. Laziness wins life, after all.
Well, you have the guy the kills the dragon, and the guy that kills the dragon, bind a balor, travel to other planes for the weekend and stop time so he can do all that while using divination to see the climate for the next decades in his nation, so all communers can do their job better.
guess wich one is cooler?
Easy one! It's the Monk because he can do both with maxxed out UMD sinz its teh roxxorz end ttally pwns magick!
1) Only casters can apply metamagic feats to their spells.
1.5) Only casters can quicken their spells.
2) Only casters get the power of their spells increased with level.
That means: one single quickened dispel magic and the monk is done.
Additionally, in a fight between a monk and a wizard, The main advantage the monk has is his mobility and his stealth skills. Solid fog and/or blindsense (you don't need even blindsight as a wizard) mess with both. Or even better. As a wizard, I have been ridiculing non-casters trying to charge me with non-magical means for a long time. Tanglefoot bags FTW.
That said, the main reason why I prefer casters over non casters is because of the things they can do out of battle. Scry, Teleport, Overland Fly, Detect Thoughts, Charm X, Dominate X, Illusions... A monk can do something out of battle, but there are so many things only the casters can do...
EDIT: BTW, Dictum_Mortuum, Rope trick is a decent way to spend nights safely from level 5, not 9. Rod of metamagic: extend makes you happy.
That means: one single quickened dispel magic and the monk is done.
Whoops, that's something i've not considered. What do UMD monk-supporters have to say about targeted dispel magics or disjunctions?
EDIT: BTW, Dictum_Mortuum, Rope trick is a decent way to spend nights safely from level 5, not 9. Rod of metamagic: extend makes you happy.
Hey, another nice idea :P I left items out of the equation.
What do UMD monk-supporters have to say about targeted dispel magics or disjunction?
Probably that the monk can do it too.
Probably that the monk can do it too.
I know you aren't defending their opinion, but...
Only casters get the power of their spells increased with level.
Dispel magic depends on caster level. For both the dispelling spell and the dispelled spell. Also, a UMD user have to decide if he is going to use the offensive item/ability or if he is going to try to dispel the wizard. A wizard can do both in a single turn.
However, I will say this much- someone said that 2 optimized wizards beat 1 Monk, 1 wizard, and IMO, in that arena fight, the Monk team will win. Just because Monks are so difficult to debuff, and Wizards (not gishes, thank you) just don't do as well on their own. Wizards can bring it to a draw, but need essentially no save damage to win.
Ok, stop the bashing. In my opinion, the guide isn't that bad.
There's some bashing yeah, but .... what else do you do when someone doesn't seem to acknowledge logic? It's a pretty bad guide, so of the fallacies ... oh my goodness gracious.
But a more serious question. Do we need permisssion to qoute someone else's work off another forum?
Does this guy know that CO is in his guide burning it down?Does this guy know that CO is in his guide burning it down?
He does. The only thing he didn't like was the fact that the spoiler tags are now text hidden with black.
Nah- it's certainly a given that wizard trumps monk- no doubt at all.
However, I will say this much- someone said that 2 optimized wizards beat 1 Monk, 1 wizard, and IMO, in that arena fight, the Monk team will win. Just because Monks are so difficult to debuff, and Wizards (not gishes, thank you) just don't do as well on their own. Wizards can bring it to a draw, but need essentially no save damage to win.
Umm... what do monks have that gets them through wall of stone/ prismatic wall or forcecage/dimensional anchor again? Sorry, I must be having a brain fart here.
Probably that the monk can do it too.
They probably won't care. Their don't receive spells from items and CL will be low to dispel their buffs.
About the fight (2 wizards VS Wizard+monk), I still think 6 spells per turn (use the familiar to cast buffs on the wizards) triumphs over 3 spells and the monk abilities. If the celerity line of spells is allowed, it's obvious who wins. Otherwise, depends on the distance between the fighters, the number of pre-buff assaults, and who wins the initiative.
Anyway, spells like Amber sarcophagus or the power word line of spells make a duel between wizards without pre-buffing time pointless.
I like to take a one level dip and the feat Practiced Spellcaster to steal the Mage's bag of tricks, then buy, eternal wands and minor schemas for higher level spells up to level 3.
Rather, I think the question is, would you rather be Beowulf or Gilgamesh, or a high level wizard?
This highlights one of my main problems with the Fighter Class. While we've all seen the "Gandalf was a 5th level wizard" articles, what level fighter do you have to be to do the stuff Beowulf does? Like, say, ripping off a legendary monster's arm while butt-naked and hanging it in Hrothgar's hall? Let alone some of his more impressive feats. Or all those social encounters in the epic...
If I want to be Beowulf, the Fighter sure gives me a hard time of it. I can say the same of many other would-be Fighter archetypes.
Not all spells get better with caster level. Example: Stone Fist which is a first level spell, which is a steal for most martial classes. From CA page 107-108. Most spells with 1 min./CL are not helped by a higher CL unless your DM put encounters realy close to geather, and in a lot of case you will not need more than three or five min. Yes a lot of spell are not very good when cast from a wand but most buffs just last longer with a higher caster level. Do not forget that a three min. buff last for 30 rounds.
I like to take a one level dip and the feat Practiced Spellcaster to steal the Mage's bag of tricks, then buy, eternal wands and minor schemas for higher level spells up to level 3.
Lower CL, easier to dispel, which means that you can say bye-bye to your buffs.
This highlights one of my main problems with the Fighter Class. While we've all seen the "Gandalf was a 5th level wizard" articles, what level fighter do you have to be to do the stuff Beowulf does? Like, say, ripping off a legendary monster's arm while butt-naked and hanging it in Hrothgar's hall? Let alone some of his more impressive feats. Or all those social encounters in the epic...
If I want to be Beowulf, the Fighter sure gives me a hard time of it. I can say the same of many other would-be Fighter archetypes.
In my epic group I suggested to my DM to give the Party Barb/FB (who isn't optimised) the Paragon Creature template just so he can keep up....
This highlights one of my main problems with the Fighter Class. While we've all seen the "Gandalf was a 5th level wizard" articles, what level fighter do you have to be to do the stuff Beowulf does? Like, say, ripping off a legendary monster's arm while butt-naked and hanging it in Hrothgar's hall? Let alone some of his more impressive feats. Or all those social encounters in the epic...
If I want to be Beowulf, the Fighter sure gives me a hard time of it. I can say the same of many other would-be Fighter archetypes.
Clearly Beowyf is actually a warblade or crusader.
Clearly Beowyf is actually a warblade or crusader.
Probably warblade with that stance which lets you constrict...
1.Flying wizard uses chained dispel.
2.Monk cannot fly.
3.????
4.Monk puts hurt on wizard!
Seriously, what?
Making the Most of What you Have (When Casters Believe What They Have Is Already Ridiculously Good)
“We need to be enlightened by the OMFGWTFBBQ Ultimate Monk Build” – Solo
I. Introduction
Face it. If you play a non-caster, a monk in particular, chances are that caster players or wizard fans will laugh in your face, try to mop the floor with you and have a chat with a fellow caster while doing it (range: unlimited). Ever since the logicninja’s Batman concept hit the boards (and likely before that), casters and wizards in particular seem to be UBER. More astoundingly, actually, often even the non-casting classes appear to be a way more viable choice for...everything: fighting, scouting, etc.
And, to add insult to injury, it appears as if the 4th edition gave up on monks altogether.
However, this guide is intended to provide some ideas to make monks (and you can easily apply stuff found here to other non-casters) more of a challenge/fun to play throughout all levels. Feel free to add ideas and comments!
Specifically, it can be a guide for, say,
- players, when you play a monk in a party with highly-powered casters – and thus also highly-powered caster oppostion (basically, a proof vs said players kindly asking to play a caster instead lest you spoil their fun)
- DMs, create some npc monk challenges to your caster players
- Overall inspiration to show the monk is definitely balanced with all other core classes
For simplicity and better usability in most campaigns, as well as help for beginning players (as well as my own limited purse to buy rule books), I’ll restrict it to generally available core rules (PHB, DMG, MM, SRD excepting psionics and divine domain rules) – so no celerity combos, timestopped maws of chaos (whatever that is) on the caster side and no belt of extra actions, vows of xy or or feats that push your damage to the colossal lvl 18 monk size by level 9. If you wish to (ab)use all the many great companions out there, you should still be able to use the principles outlined here as a source of ideas.
A great link for monks outside core in particular can be found here…
Non-core monk by emeraldstreak
Monk as balanced? Any good at all?
Here is where some of the more heated debates on this subject has happened on these boards.
And for a highly entertaining read, Talic once started a playing thread of a 20th level group with monk played by lord_khaine, barbarian by Worira, sorcerer by Solo (who else?) and cleric by Rachel Lorelei to prove how weak monks are.
Unfortunately, the excercise stopped in the midst of the first serious encounter – up to that point it was unable to prove anything at all. What the thread (and its accompanying rules discussion thread) nicely illustrated, though, was a great many hints how ultra-high-level play might really work.
Will put in more links as I come across them!
Ah, and let us not forget: the monk while focusing on what this class can do greatly (being a bane to casters) should not become an idiot specialist. He/she (for simplicity, and with due respect to the female posters here, I’ll use the male abbreviation henceforth throughout if you forgive me…) has also to fight monsters and other non-casters. While the monk might be ideal to specialise in overcoming magic-reliant opponents (it’s simply a facet of the PHB recommendations of spy, assassin, infiltrator and opportunist combatant), some tricks should help him survive long enough to actually reach that enemy caster through his minions. Or in a caster-rare (not magic-poor!) campaign. Or whatever.
Here it comes…
II. The Very Basics of Monkery
As logicninja has immortally put it:
“The traditional adventuring party has four people, filling the roles of Meat-Shield, Skill-Monkey, Heal-*****, and Batman.
You're--as Frank Miller put--the ******* Batman.”
As a monk you’re – as Frank Miller would have paraphrased as well – the ******* Joker!
Relying on tricks and unusual stuff to overcome the physically…er magically stronger Batman. Perform is even a class skill, so you could tell some jokes to entertain your desperate enemies and awestruck adventuring teammates while you squish the casters and face everything else as easily as other non-casters.
1. Key Insights on Giamonk strategy (and: what the Joker would say….)
1) “Where does he get those wonderful toys?” – The Joker
Be prepared for a harsh truth: Magic is cheap in core 3.5. And the “Giamonk” (courtesy Kurald Galain) intends to make full use of it. In that way, he is quite close to the classic gish…
The Batman may think he is special, but in a magic world as envisioned in the core 3.5 rules, everyone will want to have magic. And everyone gets it, thanks to four major goodies for all classes
- fellow pc casting. This is the way assumed by the game (for instance, the enlarge spell has almost no use for the sorcerer or wizard, but it is greatly helpful for fighting characters). In many instances, though, the non-caster or monk needs to be on his own..
- npc casting (this could be helped by, but does not need the leadership feat)
- wealth by level guidelines and thus, permanent magic items
- Use Magic Device (UMD), either cross-class or class. It does not really matter, since the greatest bargains, the wands simulating ALL 1-4 spell levels are safely usable with just a UMD score of +19. And even one rank of UMD and total bonus of +0 will allow you to eventually activate a wand…only a “1” rolled without +19 UMD will mean stopping to use that item for the day, but you could carry several for the same effect, lowering your risk greatly. Wands are the cheapest way for non-casters to obtain non-pc buffs. Based on the usual casting and spell levels of arcane and divine spells, level 1 spells, it is 15 gp per use, for level 2 spells 90 gp, for level 3 spells 225 gp and for level 4 spells 420 gp.
Great level 1-4 spells to get in store (some are range: personal)
Show
Level 1: Enlarge, Cure Lights Wounds, Chill Touch (also helps vs low-level undead; better than shocking grasp due to the STR damage potential), Faerie Fire (great cheap anti-invisibility tactics for all levels), Mage Armour (though you should preferably get that with your 1st level pearl of power from a party arcane caster or npc for longer duration), Bless Weapon (good for improved critical- unarmed strike builds), Obscuring Mist (great cheap low-level control vs missile and spell attacks), Shillelagh (the staff is a monk weapon, so you can flurry with it – and it will deal 3d6+1 damage when you are enlarged, and it counts as a magic weapon)
Level 2: Silence (the poor man’s AMF, remarkably effective). Good hour/lvl buffs are darkvision and false life. Then possibly bull’s strength (for grapple boost) and heroism (from the bard list, lasts 40 minutes then) and ghoul touch (allowing no save vs the parlysis effect)
Basically, for touch attacks at first and second level, chill touch and ghoul touch are the most effective, while shocking grasp and touch of idiocy (possibly shutting down enemy spell casting without a save) are more stylish for a true “Joker”.
Level 3: Fly, Blink
Level 4: Divine Power, Holy Sword
Will update as soon as I get new ideas!
Level 1: Enlarge, Cure Lights Wounds, Chill Touch (also helps vs low-level undead; better than shocking grasp due to the STR damage potential), Faerie Fire (great cheap anti-invisibility tactics for all levels), Mage Armour (though you should preferably get that with your 1st level pearl of power from a party arcane caster or npc for longer duration), Bless Weapon (good for improved critical- unarmed strike builds), Obscuring Mist (great cheap low-level control vs missile and spell attacks), Shillelagh (the staff is a monk weapon, so you can flurry with it – and it will deal 3d6+1 damage when you are enlarged, and it counts as a magic weapon)
Level 2: Silence (the poor man’s AMF, remarkably effective). Good hour/lvl buffs are darkvision and false life. Then possibly bull’s strength (for grapple boost) and heroism (from the bard list, lasts 40 minutes then) and ghoul touch (allowing no save vs the parlysis effect)
Basically, for touch attacks at first and second level, chill touch and ghoul touch are the most effective, while shocking grasp and touch of idiocy (possibly shutting down enemy spell casting without a save) are more stylish for a true “Joker”.
Level 3: Fly, Blink
Level 4: Divine Power, Holy Sword
Will update as soon as I get new ideas!
Show
STR 15, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack
SPECIAL: Evasion, Slow Fall 30ft, Ki-Magic, Purity of Body (immune to Disease)
SKILLS: Move Silently +10 (DEX, 6 ranks, MW item), Hide +11 (DEX, 7 ranks, MW item), Spot +13 (WIS, 9 ranks, MW item), Listen +13 (WIS, 9 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +10 (CHR, 4 ranks, feats, MW item), Spellcraft +12 (INT, 4 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +11 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy), Perform- Comedy +2 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item), Jump +19 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (500 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Cloak of Resistance +1, Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000)
WAND BUDGET: 5,300 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 50ft
AC 19 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour), 22 fighting defensively, 25 full defense (tumble)
HITS 37 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +7, Refl +8, Will +8 (+10 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +10 (+9/+9); enlarged +15 (+14/+14)
UNARMED ATTACK: +6 (+5/+5); Damage 2d6 +2, 3d6+3 enlarged
COMMENT: Another good level for the joker. Two feats, saves, BAB, move and even slow fall all improve. The most striking features:
- With the great improved natural attack feat, the monk now does more base damage than any non-enlarged weapon. 3d6 damage in large size is equal to the 3d6 sneak extra damage of the rogue. The monk now is not the biggest damage dealer around, but he can definitely contribute.
- With the spiked chain and the improved disarm feat, there is now a check of +15 (attack bonus, TH weapon, large size, feat)– good enough vs chargers to get disarmed with two AoO, and to foil any attempt of a sneak attacker with a light weapon to get close to the monk (when spotted). You could, of course, also try to disarm with a shillelagh staff at +18 (flurry +17/+17), albeit at a reduced reach (10ft).
- The monk now has the highest move of all classes in the game (Barring spells and mounts, eventually he overtakes those as well). His jump skill is also likely the highest. By now it is possible that an enlarged monk can jump up to reach a wizard who just used the fly spell to fly up (30ft).
- With +15 grapple, the monk is still equal to or much better vs well over 90% of all CR1-6 monsters (not counting the many humanoid opponents with class levels who are not large size). And many of the approx 20 monsters out there that have a higher grapple check than the monk are often vermin, mindless undead or animals (which can get outsmarted quickly). Or some magical beasts and small dragons (which the monk may know something about with knowledge arcane)
- With the help of the rod of extend, as well as the two pearls of powers, you now can have a 24/7 mage armour (provided a friendly arcane caster is nearby). You can also help other casters extend their low-level buffs by lending them the rod.
STR 15, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack
SPECIAL: Evasion, Slow Fall 30ft, Ki-Magic, Purity of Body (immune to Disease)
SKILLS: Move Silently +10 (DEX, 6 ranks, MW item), Hide +11 (DEX, 7 ranks, MW item), Spot +13 (WIS, 9 ranks, MW item), Listen +13 (WIS, 9 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +10 (CHR, 4 ranks, feats, MW item), Spellcraft +12 (INT, 4 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +11 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy), Perform- Comedy +2 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item), Jump +19 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (500 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Cloak of Resistance +1, Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000)
WAND BUDGET: 5,300 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 50ft
AC 19 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour), 22 fighting defensively, 25 full defense (tumble)
HITS 37 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +7, Refl +8, Will +8 (+10 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +10 (+9/+9); enlarged +15 (+14/+14)
UNARMED ATTACK: +6 (+5/+5); Damage 2d6 +2, 3d6+3 enlarged
COMMENT: Another good level for the joker. Two feats, saves, BAB, move and even slow fall all improve. The most striking features:
- With the great improved natural attack feat, the monk now does more base damage than any non-enlarged weapon. 3d6 damage in large size is equal to the 3d6 sneak extra damage of the rogue. The monk now is not the biggest damage dealer around, but he can definitely contribute.
- With the spiked chain and the improved disarm feat, there is now a check of +15 (attack bonus, TH weapon, large size, feat)– good enough vs chargers to get disarmed with two AoO, and to foil any attempt of a sneak attacker with a light weapon to get close to the monk (when spotted). You could, of course, also try to disarm with a shillelagh staff at +18 (flurry +17/+17), albeit at a reduced reach (10ft).
- The monk now has the highest move of all classes in the game (Barring spells and mounts, eventually he overtakes those as well). His jump skill is also likely the highest. By now it is possible that an enlarged monk can jump up to reach a wizard who just used the fly spell to fly up (30ft).
- With +15 grapple, the monk is still equal to or much better vs well over 90% of all CR1-6 monsters (not counting the many humanoid opponents with class levels who are not large size). And many of the approx 20 monsters out there that have a higher grapple check than the monk are often vermin, mindless undead or animals (which can get outsmarted quickly). Or some magical beasts and small dragons (which the monk may know something about with knowledge arcane)
- With the help of the rod of extend, as well as the two pearls of powers, you now can have a 24/7 mage armour (provided a friendly arcane caster is nearby). You can also help other casters extend their low-level buffs by lending them the rod.
1. Tie a monk to a long pole
2. Wait until the wizard is sleeping
3. Repeatedly strike the wizard with your monk-on-a-pole
4. Profit!
The simplest way I can think of to beat a wizard with a monk is these three steps:
1. Tie a monk to a long pole
2. Wait until the wizard is sleeping
3. Repeatedly strike the wizard with your monk-on-a-pole
4. Profit!
Ahh, but why not tie him onto an even longer pole? Wouldn't that get that job done from farther away? Just a thought.
I suppose we could optimize this, put the monk-on-a-pole in the hands of a Frenzied Berserker or a well-designed DMM Cleric perhaps?
This build relies on UMD and wands. Partially charged wands at that. Now I’m not a CharOp regular so correct me if I’m wrong. Based on this guys “wand budget” he is purchasing normal wands with less than full charges. Won’t these wands be created at the minimum caster level and attribute score needed to cast the spell? If so, this brings up a couple of points.
1) You can use the OP’s strategy of “wait until your buffs run out” on him. His crappy CL1 wand of enlarge (which is central to his grappling strategy) runs out in one minute.
2) As mentioned before, dispel magic (the plain old regular 3rd level kind) will rip down this monks crappy wand defenses with alarming ease.
Well, that and all of the other stuff…
As for the fighter and barbarian – well, they will not be that amused that they have to take a starting DEX of 15 and thus lower their STR starting scores, in case they do not wish to lose their grapple feat when enlarged later. And of course, you should tell them that they never will equal your no. of attacks and unarmed damage in grappling. So they should concentrate on their weapon s/battlefield control stuff.
Needless to say that at a +6 modifier, there is no MM monster with a higher grapple modifier at CR 1.
There are a few monsters that have higher grapple checks in the MM, actually. They might not normally grapple, but they have higher modifiers. The camel has a +10, for example. The (fiendish) large monstrous centipede has a +7. The light warhorse has a +9. Although not explicitly statted, an orc barbarian or fighter 1 with the elite array could have a higher grapple mod, and might even take Improved Grapple.
Arguably you can't make a flurry of grapples. A flurry of blows requires a full round action, and I've seen DMs rule that you can't combine it with grappling. So the monk isn't getting any more attacks in at least some games. As far as damage per attack, the fighter or barbarian can get some armor spikes and do as much base damage as the low level monk.
The monk will also lose his Improved Grapple if he enlarges, unless he puts a 15 in Dex.
I roll to disbelieve.
From the PHB - "At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple... A monk need not have any of the pre-requisities normally required for these feats to select them.
Therefore, the monk could have a 6 in Dex and still used Improved Grapple.
(This is of course ignoring the inevitable RAW argument that the monk is allowed to select the feat regardless of pre-reqs but not actually USE it unless he meets them.)
Monk's are very skilled movement experts, earning up to a +60ft. enhancement to their speed. They have the following movement related class skills as well; balance, climb, hide, jump, move silently, swim, and tumble.
So the first step is to recommend starting with at least 16 int so you can take the maximum ranks in each of those skills. Secondly, you must pick up the Winged template in Savage Species. A monk that cannot fly is not a master of moving around. Also did in the MiC under the set stuff, there is a crystal that gives a +5 moral bonus to speed, you can use it with your bracers of armor. Pick up a ring of freedom of movement later on and you're set.
2. AC, and more AC.
It is very important to to have high AC as a monk, however this is harder than it looks since monks cannot use greater mage armor, or even a +5 padded shirt without facing some form of loss to their AC. Due to this, you'll use bracers of armor a lot. The ideal monk uses rings of deflection, amulets of natural armor, bracers of armor, and +5 defending weapons in each hand.
3. Planning
As a monk, you have to get into the mind set required to play one. As practice I suggest setting your watch to chime hourly, on each chime you should note all your exits and how to get to them. As a monk you must always know which way to run and how to get around monsters, traps, guards, ninja-doors, and dinosaurs so your movement is never hampered.
4. Initiative is your greatest foe.
You should buy a +1 eager warning initiative fingerless black glove and focus on increasing your dex. Consider hiring a local farmer to march fifty feet in front of you so the encounter's surprise round is spent killing him.
5. Bringing it together.
With your high initiative, high AC, and even higher movement you should have no trouble running away from fights. At later levels due to FoM, flight, and a good swim check you can even use waterfalls to your advantage. If you pick up a cloak of sandswimming from the sandstorm book you can even use the ground as a path if need be. Always remember to tumble to prevent AoOs when required, and never, I repeat never fight anything not worn out, dirt covered, old, and carrying a pitchfork.
6. Death.
Death happens, consider playing a walker of the waste next time to prevent this.
Fun stuff...
Made me laugh. Thank you.
//Rune
Always remember to tumble to prevent AoOs when required, and never, I repeat never fight anything not worn out, dirt covered, old, and carrying a pitchfork.
Uh, what are you smoking? Always remember Rule 1! Do not act incautiously when facing small unarmed old wrinkly bald smiling men! The same goes for worn out dirty old men with pitchforks.
3. Planning
As a monk, you have to get into the mind set required to play one. As practice I suggest setting your watch to chime hourly, on each chime you should note all your exits and how to get to them. As a monk you must always know which way to run and how to get around monsters, traps, guards, ninja-doors, and dinosaurs so your movement is never hampered.
Wait...so if I already do this...what then?
Wait...so if I already do this...what then?
Then you are a monk ... in disguise!
The ones I struck through are not rulers of nations, which is what you said.
Don't forget Prince Talamont, ruler of Shade!
Don't forget Prince Talamont, ruler of Shade!
God I hate this guide so much.
I try to be nice, but I really just can't this time. I'd play an adept before I'd play a monk.
God I hate this guide so much.
Amen.
"God, I hate this guide so much."
"Amen."
Amen - 2nd Alto ; let's see if an Amen Choir shows up.
**
Rogue 1 / Martial Monk 6 and not even Tsuyo's bork version / Ardent 13
Tashalatora and Practiced Manifester feats, Int and Wis
Skill Monkey
Psi 9s
High Fighter feats
room for recharge, and lots of other goodies
Yawn :embarrass
God I hate this guide so much.
I try to be nice, but I really just can't this time. I'd play an adept before I'd play a monk.
Never saw such an emotional reaction to a class guide!
Do you hate the guide or the monk class? ;)
EDIT: somebody apparently hated it more than you to make such a mess posting it. It's nigh unreadable!
EDIT: somebody apparently hated it more than you to make such a mess posting it. It's nigh unreadable!
The Giacomo did a poor job of writing it, and in the transfer to GitP by the starter of the thread, the spoilers were changed to a different format.
On GitP, a spoiler tag gives you the equivalent of an sblock here. The spoiler tags put in the GitP post created a wall of blacked out text here on Gleemax.
A cursory glance reveals mainly UMD and own items to get the magic needed. Not that innovative, but not draining casters in the group, either.
At low levels, the Giacomonk bums Mage Armor and etc off of the casters.
At higher levels, unless you can just waltz into a store and buy partially charged wands of exactly the amount of charges you want, he can't afford all his wands and keep WBL, thus forcing casters to keep up the slack.
On GitP, a spoiler tag gives you the equivalent of an sblock here. The spoiler tags put in the GitP post created a wall of blacked out text here on Gleemax.
Ah, I see. Why wasn't this remedied?
At low levels, the Giacomonk bums Mage Armor and etc off of the casters.
That's quite lame ... guess those pearls of powers and rods of extend indicated in the guide will not be enough....
At higher levels, unless you can just waltz into a store and buy partially charged wands of exactly the amount of charges you want, he can't afford all his wands and keep WBL, thus forcing casters to keep up the slack.
If the wands were at full charges, I dunno - casting a spell 50 times gets you through quite a few encounters ...
So I'm looking at the title of this thread, "Beating Batman," and just thinking if any of you have looked towards the actual time Batman was beaten by Bane for lessons perhaps.
And Bane was a Barbarian.
The Joker, the name of Giacomo's build, has utterly and completely failed to beat Batman in the 40+ years of his existence.
Ah, I see. Why wasn't this remedied?
Armisael made a mistake, and didn't know how to fix the spoiler tags initially. Giacomo threw a hissy fit on his guide thread on GitP and was very rude, saying that Armisael had deliberately sabotaged him to make his guide look bad in front of the Charop community.
Armisael was disinclined to fix it after that.
You can ask for help, you can be rude, but it turns out that you can't do both.
That's quite lame ... guess those pearls of powers and rods of extend indicated in the guide will not be enough....
Considering Mage Armor lasts a few hours at low level, and that a Pearl of Power is 1000 gp each, and a Lesser Rod of Extend is 3000, you can bet on it.
If the wands were at full charges, I dunno - casting a spell 50 times gets you through quite a few encounters ...
To make the wands affordable, Giacomo suggests the purchase of used wands. The problem is, he thinks he can find them wherever, whenever, and that they will contain exactly the number of charges he needs to be affordable - never less or more.
And Bane was a Barbarian.
Well I can tell that you have no knowledge on the subject. What Bane did can actually be transferred pretty well into this type of challenge.
Well I can tell that you have no knowledge on the subject. What Bane did can actually be transferred pretty well into this type of challenge.
Here, have a link.
And Bane was a Barbarian.
PS: Your name is hilarious -- probably unintentionally.
Uh, what are you smoking? Always remember Rule 1! Do not act incautiously when facing small unarmed old wrinkly bald smiling men! The same goes for worn out dirty old men with pitchforks.
I had a 4th level Cleric die to one of these. Turned out he was a 9th level Warblade who just wanted to go home after the war. It was the DM's way of saying "Stop killing random people". It worked.
"God, I hate this guide so much."
"Amen."
Amen - 2nd Alto ; let's see if an Amen Choir shows up.
Amen the third, Bass, or Second Tenor if needed.
Well I can tell that you have no knowledge on the subject. What Bane did can actually be transferred pretty well into this type of challenge.
Please. I trained with Batman.
Your name is hilarious -- probably unintentionally.
How so?
Bane only beat Batman because the writer wanted him to. It's almost like the DM saying "Rocks fall, you die".
Really? I thought it was because he exhausted him for 6 straight days by turning the police completely against him as well as unleashing all the major baddies from Arkham Asylum onto him. And he did this because he realized he could never win against him on his own terms in his domain.
How so?
Oh, sorry, that was directed at darksamuari.
This guide seems to assume that the wizard will display no tactical insight whatsoever, which doesn't make sense at all.
He has UMB, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Climb, Spot and Listen all maxed out. :P
I'm equally angry at the 3.75 monk, which is still terrible. Got some nice feats though, but they look better on unarmed swordsages.
Basically, the gist of this guide is:
"Play something else. Right now. No Really. Play something else, like another unarmed combat class, like unarmed swordsage, or a housecat."
Not Giacomo's, remember?
He has UMB, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Climb, Spot and Listen all maxed out. :P
But his monk is also an Orc with maxed Strength for grappling and an Int of 6.
The Fool Suggests:
There is one truth, and one lie, and in that lie, are all truths.
:: charges his koan cannon ::
The Fool Suggests:
There is one truth, and one lie, and in that lie, are all truths.
wait what
Armisael made a mistake, and didn't know how to fix the spoiler tags initially. Giacomo threw a hissy fit on his guide thread on GitP and was very rude, saying that Armisael had deliberately sabotaged him to make his guide look bad in front of the Charop community.
Armisael was disinclined to fix it after that.
You can ask for help, you can be rude, but it turns out that you can't do both.
Rude? After Armisael copy/pasted a part of this guide with huge black gaps in here with the words: "tear it up, boys"?
I guess he should just have laughed and ignored it.:D
To make the wands affordable, Giacomo suggests the purchase of used wands. The problem is, he thinks he can find them wherever, whenever, and that they will contain exactly the number of charges he needs to be affordable - never less or more.
I can't quite find that in the guide, but that's just ridiculous. Everyone knows that the rules assume a magic mart, and there are even rules for pricing used wands, but hardly anyone plays this way.
Unless you're a tash-monk going psyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyychic on everyone. Which is the real way to build a monk.
I'm equally angry at the 3.75 monk, which is still terrible. Got some nice feats though, but they look better on unarmed swordsages.
Basically, the gist of this guide is:
"Play something else. Right now. No Really. Play something else, like another unarmed combat class, like unarmed swordsage, or a housecat."
Wait...isn't this guide intended to focus on core rules only?
But his monk is also an Orc with maxed Strength for grappling and an Int of 6.
This one I don't quite get, either..the example monk is obviously a human witn Int of 14.
Rude? After Armisael copy/pasted a part of this guide with huge black gaps in here with the words: "tear it up, boys"?
I guess he should just have laughed and ignored it.:D
It's only black because Armisael didn't know that there would be a problem, and has remained black because Giacomo threw a hissy fit at him for the formatting.
I can't quite find that in the guide, but that's just ridiculous. Everyone knows that the rules assume a magic mart, and there are even rules for pricing used wands, but hardly anyone plays this way.
Note whenever he says "I buy a partially charged wand" in the original thread. It never has too few or to many charges.
This one I don't quite get, either..the example monk is obviously a human with Int of 14.
He also uses Orc monks to show that monks can do grappling well and aren't MAD.
These orc monks also have maxed ranks in UMD.
From a recent thread
Wait...isn't this guide intended to focus on core rules only?
No one plays a monk willingly in a core game without serious support from their game master. And at that point, you don't need a guide because you're playing a comfortable casual game with friends and a supportive and kind game master.
If you aren't in that situation, no guide will help you. Look, fine, partially charged wands are okay in some games. But I'm gonna be blunt. That's not enough by a tremendously wide margin and almost any other class does it better. What I mean is that you have to cross-class to buy what skills you need, you gain nothing special from having these partially charged wands that a barbarian doesn't, or that a bard wouldn't be better suited to, or that even a fighter wouldn't have a better time with.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'd rather play an Adept than a Monk, in core-only situations.
At least take the apprentice feat for spellcaster from DMGII. Core-only be dashed, this is ridiculous.
It's only black because Armisael didn't know that there would be a problem, and has remained black because Giacomo threw a hissy fit at him for the formatting.
You mean if you messed up and somebody is angry with you for it you are free to just leave the mess as it is? ;) Well... at least Armisael should have thought about the other readers - I guess as the original poster he's the only one able to edit it, or not?
Note whenever he says "I buy a partially charged wand" in the original thread. It never has too few or to many charges.
Ah, I also see that the low-level part of his example monk apparently assume some of the used cheaper wands. *Shrug* Depends on the campaign, I guess, as Dr_Rocktopus suggests.
He also uses Orc monks to show that monks can do grappling well and aren't MAD.
These orc monks also have maxed ranks in UMD.
Truth to tell, playing some orc monk with STR 24 (enlarged) and improved grapple at first level could be fun
And even with an Int of 6 they could raise UMD for the occasional additional cure light wounds.The post you linked is part of a very long thread - will read it some other time.
No one plays a monk willingly in a core game without serious support from their game master. And at that point, you don't need a guide because you're playing a comfortable casual game with friends and a supportive and kind game master.
If you aren't in that situation, no guide will help you. Look, fine, partially charged wands are okay in some games. But I'm gonna be blunt. That's not enough by a tremendously wide margin and almost any other class does it better. What I mean is that you have to cross-class to buy what skills you need, you gain nothing special from having these partially charged wands that a barbarian doesn't, or that a bard wouldn't be better suited to, or that even a fighter wouldn't have a better time with.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'd rather play an Adept than a Monk, in core-only situations.
At least take the apprentice feat for spellcaster from DMGII. Core-only be dashed, this is ridiculous.
Maybe you two are interested in a recent thread where various posters (including myself) discussed the merits of (core) monks in the fighting department:
Imo the monk did not do too badly there*
If you want to play a spellcaster, I do not think a monk is a good choice (quite obvious...
). But when playing some unarmed warrior? In core certainly - and outside core there's just a multitude of possiblities- entirely dependent on what the DM allows and what not.*EDIT: the numbercrunching done in that thread was for level 20 and 10 only, though. So it could also be that the monk is not such a great class to play for lower levels.
Basically, the gist of this guide is:
"Play something else. Right now. No Really. Play something else, like another unarmed combat class, like unarmed swordsage, or a housecat."
I believe there was a Dragon magazine article quite a while ago about what happens to familiars after their master dies. I'm remember them keeping their enhanced intelligence (at least sometimes) which I'm assuming means they keep the Magical Beast type. If anyone could point me at this article or a similar one, I'd greatly appreciate it.
With the Magical Beast type, it qualifies for Rapidstrike. So a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard / Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian Housecat could take Underfoot Combat and run into people's squares, slashing at their feet for massive fire damage.
At least, I think so. I'm still attempting to create a good housecat build that's really an unarmed martial character rather than being casting or manifesting based.
Housecats are nasty, man. And hey, you can get Obtain Familiar to get another housecat as a familiar, just because.
JaronK
Thank you, Am, for updating it. One less thing to get yelled at over by farking Giacomo.
I've crunched a bunch of numbers myself, Them', and I found the monk to be exceedingly lackluster compared to a charger paladin or a moderately optimized barbarian. I will read of your numeromancy, and think upon it.
Sorry, was channeling Event Horizon. Seriously, I'll lay a build out in a new thread, and we'll see if a monk can match up.
I have read of your numeromancy, and stand largely unimpressed by the use of PaO. I will lay out for you a charging berserker who abuses PaO as an aasimar, and you will cry tears of blood and scream my name into the wind as I demonstrat----
Sorry, was channeling Event Horizon. Seriously, I'll lay a build out in a new thread, and we'll see if a monk can match up.
By all means do so! But remember that out of the 3-4 builds I provided, only one made use of PaO ... (and you may wish to use also a core rulesset to see how you fare against the higher levels monks ... even using an Aasimar barbarian you'll not get more mileage out of PaO than the monk, I guess)
Meanwhile, while this guide draws a lot of criticism - this is the optimization boards. Is there anything that can be improved for players seeking ideas for core monks?
Warning, this is not my optimization. I just want all the monk trashers to shut up.
For all you monk doubters, I post The "Ultimate" Monk.
Warning, this is notmyoptimization. I just want all the monk trashers to shut up.
Balmas - I just bumped this board's most recent Monk guide.
No excuses.
(1) ... This "ultimate" build, does not use Tashalatora.
(2) ... It does not use Caelic's Bunko thread, for items.
(later) ...It obviously is built not knowing why a Full Caster class, would be better than a Partial Caster class,
let alone why Fist Of Zuoken (Psionic Fist in the SRD), is not a good choice.
carnivore's post in the thread I bumped, is his shorty summary of a much longer thread on the Psionics board.
Start with the guide, and points 1 and 2.
You'll improve that "ultimate" build.
And it's easy, all the steps are right in front of you.
(sigh)
Okay.
Dr. Von Core'only
Human Barbarian 20
Chaotic Evil
Feats:
1: Power Attack
H: Mounted Combat
3: Ride-by Attack
6: Leadership
9: Spirited Charge
12: Open
15: Open
18: Open
Cohort:
Advanced Nightmare, class advanced if possible, but that's unlikely.
+5 large ghost touch lance
PaO into a fire giant, twice.
+6 Str Item
+5 tome
42 str
+8 from mighty rage
50 Str
+20 to hit.
+5 from weapon
Damage:
2d8+30 from Str+5 from weapon+20 from PA(-10)
Average:
8+30+5+20
63*3 on a charge
63*4 if power diving into a charge, which is perfectly legal.
252, with no serious effort, single-classed barbarian in core only. Sub-optimal race choice, three open feats, and nothing bizarre or even very good. While ethereal and astral projected at all times, along with flight from my notably hardy mount. I'm sure it would be largely effortless to do better than this. A key point would be access to pounce.
To-hit:
20+10+5+2, sufficient to auto-hit the 3.0 monk build with full splatbook access you posted. It will kill him in two hits.
Maybe just one if you can get another bit of attack bonus from any-of-many possible sources so that you could PA for your full 20.
Minor Ring Of Spell-storing will let you use true-strike to nail the other one posted.
For all you monk doubters, I post The Ultimate Monk.
Warning, this is not my optimization. I just want all the monk trashers to shut up.
I lol'd
Also, this line:
"Properly optimized, an unarmed monk can overpower a barbarian, out-maneuver a rogue, provide his own buffs, and do more than hundred points of damage four to five times a round. We don't need no stinkn' magic swords."
Also, the fact that the monks have 12 Con. That was pretty funny.
Cohort:
Advanced Cauchemar Nightmare.
How's that work? Leadership cohorts normally only get as high as ECL 17, and a Cauchemar is 15 HD + 4 LA (cohort) = ECL 19.
)A normal nightmare works just fine, though you may need to advance it.
The.... I.... :: sighs ::
Okay.
Dr. Von Core'only
Human Barbarian 20
Chaotic Evil
(...)
189, with no serious effort, single-classed barbarian in core only. Sub-optimal race choice, three open feats, and nothing bizarre or even very good. While ethereal and astral projected at all times, along with flight from my notably hardy mount. I'm sure it would be largely effortless to do better than this. A key point would be access to pounce.
To-hit:
20+10+5+2, sufficient to auto-hit the 3.0 monk build with full splatbook access you posted. It will kill him in two hits.
Maybe just one if you can get another bit of attack bonus from any-of-many possible sources so that you could PA for your full 20.
I am not quite sure - are you comparing this damage output and incomplete build to the monk numbercrunching I posted (see link above)? Or to the guide that Dandu found funny (but also outdamaged this barbarian by a wide margin)?
Several comments:
- your build uses PaO AND leadership, both of which are not considered thaat much of proving a point, aroud here, I guess ;)
- 189 damage per one (charge) attack should kill a level 20 monk (core with or without PaO) - if he hits or even gets that far in the first place
- In particular imo this barbarian would have still a hard time hitting a fully maxed monk: he'll never even be able to see, surprise or win initiative and thus never reach the monk with a spirited charge - rather, the other way round would be the case.
- minor thing: luck stone does not add a bonus to attacks (and the monks I posted never involved 3.0 involved, it was all 3.5)
Well, the humor comes from the fact that it's not ultimate and not nearly enough to stop people from criticizing how badly the monk was designed.
Also, this line:
"Properly optimized, an unarmed monk can overpower a barbarian, out-maneuver a rogue, provide his own buffs, and do more than hundred points of damage four to five times a round. We don't need no stinkn' magic swords."
Also, the fact that the monks have 12 Con. That was pretty funny.
Well, well...;)
The size stacking results in some impressive damage outcome for the monk.
And what exactly is funny about a 12 Con with full fort saves and excellent AC and movement to make being hit quite unlikely?
Although it's a bit of a pain at low levels - and requires good tactics.
Well, well...;)
The size stacking results in some impressive damage outcome for the monk.
And what exactly is funny about a 12 Con with full fort saves and excellent AC and movement to make being hit quite unlikely?
Although it's a bit of a pain at low levels - and requires good tactics.
You are certainly right about requiring good tactics, a monk of high levels survives through have a firm grasp of the battlefield.
But "excellent AC and movement," really???
Monk AC by 20th Level (Stats off of a 28-point buy as well as stat bumps: Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 8): 10 + 4 class bonus + 2 Wis + 4 Dex = 20
Fighter AC by 2nd Level (Stats off of a 28-point buy as well as stat bumps: Str 15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8): 10 + 6 armor bonus (Splint Mail) + 2 shield bonus (Heavy Wooden Shield) + 2 Dex = 20
So with 207 GP my Fighter can match your grand master of Kung Fu...
And in regards to movement speed, well this is ludicrous. A 20th level monk's speed is 90 ft and a 2nd-level Fighter can purchase a light warhorse for 75 GP whose speed is 60ft.
The point being illustrated is that much of the monk's 'strengths' can be easily purchased and beaten by other classes.
- your build uses PaO AND leadership, both of which are not considered thaat much of proving a point, aroud here, I guess ;)
Your build relies on PaO, but I'm not allowed to use it?
I can probably purchase a nightmare as a mount, even an advanced one.
I just used leadership to get a horse because there's no cost listed for nightmares. In other words, I just bought a mount with a feat that I could have probably spent gold on, oh no!
Possibly the worst of all available uses for leadership.
Also, I will hit you every time I need to.
I only need to hit once to obliterate you. I can do this on 180+ ft charge, while ethereal.
I can hit you using a variety of methods, including something as simple as truestrike from a ring or iounstone of spellstoring.
I'm always ethereal and always astrally projected, and I am using a ghost touch lance. I haven't itemized the build yet, nor to I plan to, but preliminary inspection using my usual gear templates indicates that you're pretty well boned even in a duel situation.
I will always catch you, because I can just have my mount double move which outruns your monk. Boots of speed do not stack with the monk's move speed, which leaves you down at 90 feet per move action. Haste will push my nightmare's speed up to 120 per move action. I don't even need to spend my feats on things like I did, because I can just buy horseshoes of the peerless steed.
Suffice to say that it took me twelve to twenty minutes to roll that barbarian, he's nothing special, and as far as I can tell he'll kill you every time. Because you have no way of getting ghost touch on your fists, so you suffer at least a 50% miss chance while attacking me, on top of any problems that derive from my nightmare's cloud effect, on top of anything that might be problematic like solid fog which I am immune to as an ethereal attacker. My con modifier can roughly be described as astronomical, my base BaB is better, I don't need divine power, and I don't care about iterative attacks. Crucially, I can actually move and attack naturally.
Your build relies on PaO, but I'm not allowed to use it?
Well it would certainly make a Housecat build much easier.
If I'm allowed awaken, I don't need PaO. Housecats are ridiculous once they get class levels!
Ah, but you see... awaken gives 2 hit dice. A normal awakened cat can't get rid of those (unless you can use a rebuilding quest to do so. I think rebuilding only works on class levels.) If someone is polymorph any objected into a cat (duration factor 9. Same kingdom, same class, same or lower Int), then awakened, level drain can be used to remove those sucky HD.
Of course, PaO has its own massive disadvantage, which is being dispellable.
*Actually, I suppose it could get drained down to 1HD, then replace that with a class level. How did I not think of that first?
I'm a little disappointed in that "Not The Bees!" housecat build though. Melee as a housecat with no Underfoot Combat / Confound the Big Folk and no source of bonus damage? Oh, and it has 22 class levels.
You can level-drain away racial hitdice!
Something good did come of this thread!!
This strongly suggests that the optimal race choice for many builds is awakened housecat. ;)
..... You.... You're brilliant.
You can level-drain away racial hitdice!
Something good did come of this thread!!
This strongly suggests that the optimal race choice for many builds is awakened housecat. ;)
One more reason a monk gets pwnt by Batman : he's now a Weretiger in an LA buyoff game. No reason, he just is.
Monk : I know kung-fu!
Wizard a la Bloody Roar : Show me. -shift-
One more reason a monk gets pwnt by Batman : he's now a Weretiger in an LA buyoff game. No reason, he just is.
Monk : I know kung-fu!
Wizard a la Bloody Roar : Show me. -shift-
So...many.... lulz..
So...many.... lulz..
I can do better :D If he's a real prick and a war weaver, he activates greater celerity to blow the weave, which will include bite of the weretiger, to get double the stats, and THEN proceeds to kick ass. He will still have a standard and a swift from GC, and probably won initiative, so he's got plenty of time to let the monk know he's out of his league. And, oh wait...we do this anyway without CO/TO weretiger cheese! So sowweh
Muahahahaha!
Your build relies on PaO, but I'm not allowed to use it?
I can probably purchase a nightmare as a mount, even an advanced one.
I just used leadership to get a horse because there's no cost listed for nightmares. In other words, I just bought a mount with a feat that I could have probably spent gold on, oh no!
Possibly the worst of all available uses for leadership.
You cannot purchase the nightmare, as you said yourself. And what you get with leadership as a mount is entirely up to the DM (as is anything related to the feat). So it should normally not be included in builds - much less, at least, than PaO.
Plus, you shouldn' compare two PaO builds and then only add leadership ontop of one of them.
A monk or a commoner could do exactly the PoA charge tactics with a leadershipped nightmare (in case the DM allows it) you outlined for the barbarian (sans the +8 STR rage thing; or 4x3 more damage on hitting). It has nothing to do with the barbarian class.
Also, I will hit you every time I need to.
I only need to hit once to obliterate you. I can do this on 180+ ft charge, while ethereal.
I can hit you using a variety of methods, including something as simple as truestrike from a ring or iounstone of spellstoring.
I'm always ethereal and always astrally projected, and I am using a ghost touch lance. I haven't itemized the build yet, nor to I plan to, but preliminary inspection using my usual gear templates indicates that you're pretty well boned even in a duel situation.
I will always catch you, because I can just have my mount double move which outruns your monk. Boots of speed do not stack with the monk's move speed, which leaves you down at 90 feet per move action. Haste will push my nightmare's speed up to 120 per move action. I don't even need to spend my feats on things like I did, because I can just buy horseshoes of the peerless steed.
Suffice to say that it took me twelve to twenty minutes to roll that barbarian, he's nothing special, and as far as I can tell he'll kill you every time. Because you have no way of getting ghost touch on your fists, so you suffer at least a 50% miss chance while attacking me, on top of any problems that derive from my nightmare's cloud effect, on top of anything that might be problematic like solid fog which I am immune to as an ethereal attacker. My con modifier can roughly be described as astronomical, my base BaB is better, I don't need divine power, and I don't care about iterative attacks. Crucially, I can actually move and attack naturally.
Now, several rules issues here imo
- you confound etheralness and incorporality (a common enough mistake). So the ghost touch lance will not hit anything on the prime material plane from the etheral plane. Not with the help of true strike, nor anything else.
- the wording of the astral projection spell strongly suggests you can only project from the prime material plane. in the case of the nightmare (native to another plane), I'd say the abyss. Good look leaving your barbarian body there.;) And guess what? The nightmare also knows about these things and (being run by the DM as your cohort, as any npc) might have problems leaving its body in the abyss unprotected for a long time just to meet its master's whims.
- the usual monk at level 20 has a speed of 120 (flying), since the enhancement bonus always is added to the base speed (in this case, say, from wings of flying). So the monk is faster than the nightmare, or as fast in case it wears horseshoes of speed (DM's call, since the hooves of the nightmare are on flame and the horseshoes only apply to land speed).
- then there is the minor problem of your large fire giant barbarian being a bit too much weight for the STR 18 nightmare. Definitely there is not going to be a charge done with it (too lazy to calculate the encumbrance right now).
- A much bigger problem, though, for the STR-maxed barbarian is to even find the monk from the etheral plane on the prime material plane. Vision into the material plane only extends 60ft. So good luck finding the monk. And even then, the monk has hide as class skill vs the barbarian's...likely somewhat...let us say lacking spot skill.
- thus, there is a big chance that the monk notices the barbarian before the other way round. Monk goes etheral at will (up to 20 rounds), sneaks up on barbarian and possibly knocks him out in a standard action (stun, quivering palm, poison, massive damage, spell storing effect in gauntlet targeting will save). And if the monk wins initiative... do not make me list what happens then :D Even the Giamonk example of this ridiculed guide takes out your barbarian without much problem.
- Finally, even if a charge somehow comes about, a huge size PaO monk simply with his spiked chain trips the nightmare from 30ft away. End of charge. Barbarian falls to the ground. And how exactly again is the PaO barbarian going to hit the PaO monk core level 20 that I posted? It has up to 66 AC (not counting the blinking effect).
To sum up: your barbarian "build" fails to beat a monk
- then there is the minor problem of your large fire giant barbarian being a bit too much weight for the STR 18 nightmare. Definitely there is not going to be a charge done with it (too lazy to calculate the encumbrance right now).
Hmm. I'm trying to figure out the math behind this, and something doesn't seem quite right.
First of all, if he got the nightmare as his cohort with the Leadership feat and it advanced along with him, by the time he's 20 it will have at least 11 HD and thus be huge. That will make its strength at least 26, and so its light load will be 1836 pounds. It could be higher if it put some points into str as it got more hit dice or something.
Looking in the entry for Fire Giants, it says an adult is about 7000 pounds. Whoa! That's a lot. That's the part that doesn't seem quite right, though -- frost giants are taller (15' vs. 12') and only weigh 2800 pounds. Stone giants, which are the same height as fire giants, are 1500 pounds. Hill giants, at 10.5' tall, weigh in at 1100 pounds. Cloud giants are 18' tall and 5000 pounds.
Are fire giants filled with lead or something? They weigh over four times as much as the guys with "stone" in their names!
Minor edit: I just noticed that large earth elementals, which are 16' tall and literally made out of rock, are 6000 pounds. Why the heck are fire giants so heavy? That has to be an error.
So good luck finding the monk. And even then, the monk has hide as class skill vs the barbarian's...likely somewhat...let us say lacking spot skill.
Track/Survival.
Track/Survival.
So he could locate him (that's still iffy) but that still doesn't solve the issue of detecting him.
And I still don't think you realise the distinction between survival/track & spot.
So you're barbarian is going to track the monk from one plane to the next? Pretty big task I'd say.
If you can still see from the etheral plane onto the material within 60 feet, you can just keep following tracks.
And I still don't think you realise the distinction between survival/track & spot.
Spot: There he is!
Track: Hm.... the trail ends here... I wonder...
And what exactly is funny about a 12 Con with full fort saves
Oh Giacomo, you and your fascination with front liners of 12 con.
You do realize that moving in and out means that you only get one hit off? Ooh, what a great threat there. And I'm sure that the enemy wont' figure out your tactic of "run up, slap him, run away" anytime soon and counter it somehow. Nope. Cause all the enemies of the monk apparently use stupid tactics. Maybe because they read this guide before facing him and got brain damage.
Meanwhile, this radical new invention called a bow and arrow threatens to turn you into a pincushion.
And fort saves? Ok, let's see... the "ultimate" monk has a base fort save of +12 at level 20, +13 including Con. That's hardly impressive. Infact, I venture to go so far as to say that it is unimpressive.
Have you ever played a monk with 12 con? Not fun. Why don't you give it a try? Find someone to run you a game and I'll join. Should be fun.
No items. Fox only. Final Destination.
and excellent AC and movement to make being hit quite unlikely?
"This rifle has a self-cleaning gas system. It does not need to be cleaned."
The Colt firearms company argued that the M-16 rifle has a self cleaning gas system, so they saw no reason in issuing a cleaning kit along with their rifles in Viet-Nam. Theoretically, the M-16 rifle would not require it. Meanwhile, in reality, the rifle ended up jamming due to fouling and getting many GI's killed.
Fvck theoretically functional. If you can't handle a situation at its worse, then your build can't compete with the best.
Wow. That "guide" (if you can even call it that) was so bad, I think it gave me cancer.
Not going to lie, I lurk here and there on these boards, coming to learn a few tips and tricks and read up on many of the guides posted. I read this thinking, "Hey. Monks are pretty terrible. Maybe this person got it right."
Wow. That "guide" (if you can even call it that) was so bad, I think it gave me cancer.
Sig'd
Major obstacles:
Fly + Targeted dispel (obstacle from level 5 to 9)
Contact Other Plane (level 9 onwards)
Contingency (level 11 onwards)
Favoured of the Martyr from Limited Wish + Celerity (level 13 onwards)
Forcecage + Dimensional Lock (level 15 onwards)
Shapechange, Timestop, Gate, metamagic orb of X insta-gib (level 17)
If you go further along the CO - TO line, you have to deal with genesis, clones, Simulacrum and Contact Other Plane cheese that figures out your name 1 week before you attack.
Oh, that's just spells.
Hello? We're talking about a tier 1 class here. UMD will NOT cut it.
Let's see what happens when combat starts: (level 20)
Contact Other Plane has told him approx. when the monk attacks, so he's a Dire Tortoise (shapechange) when it happens. Oh, and he has Foresight up as well.
Oops, he's never FFed, Celerity + Timestop = wizard has lotsa time to do whatever he wants. I think at that point we can agree the monk lost.
Forcecage on the monk + shared shapechange with familiar into Beholder = monk lose. What with orb spells fire-able into an AMF and all. And that's just one way.
It just gets worse if the wizard is attacking. Timestop + Teleport into battle = monk gets insta-gibbed.
Look, it hasn't even got to feats and the monk loses practically all the time unless the wizard is a moron. And the guide is trying to beat Batman? Am I seeing things right? I hope it has a way to get into: Rope Trick, Magnificent Mansion or some similar spells like that. Coz the wizard isn't gonna let you wail on him if he ever runs out of time.
Yes he lacked 9th level spell counters, and a lot of the stuff was circumstantial (that's life for ya). But no one can actually run a campaign with even 1 optimized full caster if the core 9th level spells are unedited. The lack of high-spell counters doesn't bother me because by then the PCs could be using genesis to... well, we all know....
On the 12 con thing: I once rolled the lowest scores I could using a program I created. With a reasonable number of re-rolls I managed to de-optimize an itemless single classed monk in a for-fun campaign (level 16 & 37hp FTW!). It was such a 'wtf?' moment for the DM that I did great
But then again it was a reasonable campaign (shapechange was on the top of the ban list)Wow I love the Internet. Nothing shows how big a man you are like you and a hundred other people tearing down one guy.
There are only 5 of us.
Man, gotta love the internet. Nothing like hyperbole and logical fallacies to attract people to your position.
Yes he lacked 9th level spell counters, and a lot of the stuff was circumstantial (that's life for ya). But no one can actually run a campaign with even 1 optimized full caster if the core 9th level spells are unedited.
You can't run a real life campaign with Giacomo's monk either. Partially charged wands of any spell available on demand, in exactly the amount of charges needed? Hello? Earth to Giacomo...
And hell, we don't even need unedited 9th level spells to show him up. Two words: Solid Fog.
The monk goes: Abundant Step.
The Wizard then goes: Solid Fog again
The monk goes: Crap
On the 12 con thing: I once rolled the lowest scores I could using a program I created. With a reasonable number of re-rolls I managed to de-optimize an itemless single classed monk in a for-fun campaign (level 16 & 37hp FTW!). It was such a 'wtf?' moment for the DM that I did great
Your point? The plural of evidence isn't anecdotes, if you'll remember.
Your story has no place here in a discussion about the mechanical viability of a 12 con monk. Firstly, you could be lying. Secondly, you admit that the campaign was just "for fun". This means that even if you had something like a wizard who had an int of 8, he might have gotten along. This does not mean, of course, that a wizard of int 8 is a good idea to play.
Have fun all you want, it's your right as a gamer, but you can't use "oh, it could be fun" as an argument for whether or not a particular build is good or bad mechanically.
Thirdly, the campaign was reasonable from your perspective. Your perspective could be flawed. Banning Shapechange is a sign of common sense, but that doesn't mean the campaign was "reasonable". That word's meaning is so subjective hat saying your campaign was "reasonable" is meaningless.
You said it was a "for fun" campaign; did the DM challenge you by throwing you up against CR appropriate encounters, which was how the game was intended, or did he just create a political situation you had to defuse with words?
So many variables in the individual campaign can't be accounted for, but what we can do is judge the mechanical power of a character relative to others and to the challenges he should be able to take on, flawed as that system may be.
With a reasonable number of re-rolls I managed to de-optimize an itemless single classed monk in a for-fun campaign (level 16 & 37hp FTW!). It was such a 'wtf?' moment for the DM that I did great
Out of curiosity, how did you avoid getting one-shotted? By level 16, pretty much anybody can do more than 37 damage in a single round. Heck, a level 7 wizard with a little bit of luck will do more than that with an Empowered Scorching Ray, and I don't think that's an unreasonable combo by any standard.
Out of curiosity, do you even read other people's posts, Dandu? Not fifteen posts back, on this same page, Themistokles posted a monk with average scores with an AC higher than your average 20th level fighter.
Out of curiosity, do you even think over your own posts, Balmas?
In the game of Dungeons and Dragons, you'll be going up against monsters, which, iirc, have higher attack bonuses than your average 20th level fighter as well.
And again, what is an "average" fighter? What is it with this new and fascinating tactic of bringing in completely subjective elements into a debate where they cannot thrive?
Furthermore, note that the monk was not an average monk. Of course an average fighter is going to do worse. So would a member of the Republican Guard pale in comparison to a member of the SAS.
Can the exceptional monk outdo an exceptional fighter?
And you'd know this if you'd actually read his post.
- thus, there is a big chance that the monk notices the barbarian before the other way round. Monk goes etheral at will (up to 20 rounds), sneaks up on barbarian and possibly knocks him out in a standard action (stun, quivering palm, poison, massive damage, spell storing effect in gauntlet targeting will save). And if the monk wins initiative... do not make me list what happens then Even the Giamonk example of this ridiculed guide takes out your barbarian without much problem.
Because when I have the ability to go ethereal for 2 minutes a day, which consists of 1440 of them, I will use them up in attempt to track down an etheral barbarian who I don't even know is stalking me. Right.
Yes. You know that tarrasque? That will hit your average fighter on every shot?
Will someone please explaining to me what this average fighter I hear so much about is?
It doesn't do that for this. Besides, your monsters have to be able to hit him. You win initiative, run in, full attack (six attacks, each hit doing something like 50 points of damage. Then, you use haste and get the heck out of there.
Me personally? The monk? The fighter?
And you'd know this if you'd actually read his post.
You know what would happen if you read people's posts? You'd have noticed this:
You are certainly right about requiring good tactics, a monk of high levels survives through have a firm grasp of the battlefield.
But "excellent AC and movement," really???
Monk AC by 20th Level (Stats off of a 28-point buy as well as stat bumps: Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 8): 10 + 4 class bonus + 2 Wis + 4 Dex = 20
Fighter AC by 2nd Level (Stats off of a 28-point buy as well as stat bumps: Str 15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8): 10 + 6 armor bonus (Splint Mail) + 2 shield bonus (Heavy Wooden Shield) + 2 Dex = 20
So with 207 GP my Fighter can match your grand master of Kung Fu...
But yeah, I offer to you my sincerest and most heartfelt apologies at having too much of a life to analize every word someone on TEH INTERNETS!!1! posts. Please forgive me.
I'll be sure to lose some sleep over this as well.
10 base +19 natural -1 size +10 DEX +10 WIS +4 monk +1 insight +1 haste +4 mage armour (lasts 2 hours) + 5 defending kama = 63.
If YOU had read this, Balmas, you'd have noticed that 19 of the AC only comes into play if you allow PAO, the second most broken spell in core. So I suggest you get off your high horse about me not reading other people's posts.
Without that, it's an AC of 44. This is within grasp of the average fighter, whatever that is.
Oh, and the Mage Armor part only lasts two hours. He's going to be burning through charges on that wand of his while the fighter's armor is constant.
I hope you like apples.
1) Forcecage
2) Second Forcecage (after abundant step)
3) Cloudkill or Disintegrate or Acid Fog or whatever...
You have no means to escape the cage and insufficient saves to survive a caster looking to kill you once you're in there.
If you cite an item with disintegrate to destroy the cage you're taking UMD way too far, and barring that a commoner with a sufficiently large barrel of throwing mackerel could kill you before the cage expired.
So really all we're looking for for an auto-win is a 13th level wizard and a barrel of fish.
I'm not going to read all of your posts, Giacomo. Youre responses and logic I have read suggest all I need to beat your monk is:
1) Forcecage
2) Second Forcecage (after abundant step)
3) Cloudkill or Disintegrate or Acid Fog or whatever...
You have no means to escape the cage and insufficient saves to survive a caster looking to kill you once you're in there.
If you cite an item with disintegrate to destroy the cage you're taking UMD way too far, and barring that a commoner with a sufficiently large barrel of throwing mackerel could kill you before the cage expired.
Rod of Cancellation. Of course, the monk will have more of these than the wizard has spell slots and scrolls of Forcecage.
10 base
+10 wis
+10 dex
+5 defending
+5 defending
+5 nat armor
+8 bracers
RoP +5
Monk +4
=62 AC.
You could probably enchant a ring of force shield to get another +7 to AC if your DM will allow it, but I don't think it's necessary.
Or... Monk belt?
Ok, why don't you have a monk belt? I'm sorry, it's not my job to help you make a better build, but it would give you some more AC.
If YOU had read this, Balmas, you'd have noticed that 19 of the AC only comes into play if you allow PAO, the second most broken spell in core.
More than that, actually. The PaO bumps his dex up from 12 to 25, so that's another 6 gone without it. Of course, it also gives him that -1 size modifier -- but without PaO, his AC is down to just 39. Easy as pie for any decent fighter to hit.
Rod of Cancellation. Of course, the monk will have more of these than the wizard has spell slots and scrolls of Forcecage.
I'm assuming that's sarcasm at 11,000 gp per rod... particularly with the golf bag of partially charged wands he's already carrying.
And, as Dandu suggested, the modified AC:
As above +
+5 ring of force shield
Monk's belt
+1 ioun stone
=71 AC.
VS:
Knight 10, Dwarven Defender 10
10 Base
+5 Mountain plate (+15 AC)
+5 Tower Shield (+9 AC +1 from knight shield specialization)
+5 ring of protection
+5 defending dwarven waraxe
+5 amulet of natural armor
+4 defensive stance
+4 defender dodge
= 58 AC
Hey, if you're allowed to use PaO, why can't he?
minneyar isn't allowed to use PaO last time I checked.
And, as Dandu suggested, the modified AC:
The name's Solo.
As above +
+5 ring of force shield
Monk's belt
+1 ioun stone
You know, I don't think the Ring of Force Shield counts. So AC of 68 for you.
VS:
Knight 10, Dwarven Defender 10
10 Base
+5 Mountain plate (+15 AC)
+5 Tower Shield (+9 AC +1 from knight shield specialization)
+5 ring of protection
+5 defending dwarven waraxe
+5 amulet of natural armor
+4 defensive stance
+4 defender dodge
= 58 AC
Firstly, that's not a core build, while your monk is. Secondly, DD sucks. Thirdly, it's not a fighter, much less your average fighter.
Seriously, what's up with that? After all the talk about how core fighters are inferior to core monks AC wise... you use non core examples?
Rod of Cancellation. Of course, the monk will have more of these than the wizard has spell slots and scrolls of Forcecage.
Forcecage + AMF then use bow to leisurely shoot you to death with nat 20s.
If shapechange is up, the familiar turning into a beholder does the same but except that orb spells kill you even faster.
Or if the wizard is an Archmage the same applies.
Spamming Forcecage does quickly get expensive though. But BC wizards could force you to use your DD and whatever other escape plans before he has to resort to Forcecage.
See how easy it is to improve this? You're just helping prove that monks can do it better.
What's your constitution modifier again? 12?
I concede that you have a higher AC as a monk, but you pretty much limit yourself to Ioun Stones for a +2 to con. You could use a manuel of health, but i doubt you'll be able to afford one.
d8 HD and 14 con isn't enough at higher levels, considering that you're going to suffer from attacks that don't rely on hitting your AC.
There are so many spell combos that render the fight completely one-sided it's not really worth arguing.
I know Forcecage isn't cheap, but if you bring Shadowcraft Mage into the mix it becomes free.
Cheaper than a Rod of Cancellation.
+10 wis
+10 dex
Maybe I'm missing something here, but where are these stats coming from? And what are the hypothetical character in question's other stats like? I don't quite see how you're going to get your stats this high and spend so much on increasing your AC without gimping your character in other areas.
Cheaper than a Rod of Cancellation.
Yeah, 7 1/3 forcecages for each rod, assuming both spend the same amount of money.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but where are these stats coming from? And what are the hypothetical character in question's other stats like? I don't quite see how you're going to get your stats this high and spend so much on increasing your AC without gimping your character in other areas.
I think the budget is going to look worse than an Enron accountant's ledger.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but where are these stats coming from? And what are the hypothetical character in question's other stats like? I don't quite see how you're going to get your stats this high and spend so much on increasing your AC without gimping your character in other areas.
Partially charged wands of +20 dex and/or +20 wis?
This is typically why I create builds without any influence of magical items, it isn't fair to say that you will have these items with your character. The only real test should be the skill of your character, not their check book.
As to the PaO business, it's cheap and dirty. It's the equivalent of saying, "My guy could totally beat your guy but only if my guy wasn't my guy but this guy," or "I could totally beat you at am arm wrestling tournament if I was Arnold Schwarzenegger!"
"I could totally beat you at am arm wrestling tournament if I was Arnold Schwarzenegger!"
Truth ^
As to the rest, most of DnD is very much gear related when you aren't an arcane caster.
Truth ^
As to the rest, most of DnD is very much gear related when you aren't an arcane caster.
But when you open this door you allow my simple commoner to become an actual huge threat should he save up some money.
It also reeks of cockiness to say with absolute certainty that your character will have these specific items at this exact time in his career.
Truth ^
As to the rest, most of DnD is very much gear related when you aren't an arcane caster.
Gear is important no matter who you are. Encounters are balanced around assuming that the party has appropriate wealth for their level, and 3.5e D&D gives out a lot of wealth.
Nonetheless, the ability to spend so much on magic does not mean that your base class is good. You could conceivably make builds for warblades, binders, factotums, psychic warriors, and so forth that will be effective as long as they've got any level-appropriate weapon and armor in their possession. It's hard to say the same about the monk, though.
The concept of the monk class is exceptional. The abilities and implimentation of them however, is not.
I don't think anyone is saying monks are so terrible that they lose to 1st level adepts on a regular basis. However, if comparing a completely optimized monk versus almost any other completely optimized class (or combination there of), the monk *usually* isn't coming out on top.
The concept of the monk class is exceptional. The abilities and implimentation of them however, is not.
Hiya Deoxyhydroxinate, How's the cancer doing? And for the record for the thread...while a fully optimized monk may well be a terror in melee, it should go without saying that an even slightly optimized wizard can [u]SUMMON[/u] something worse, and do it more than once from within a time stop :D
Hiya Deoxyhydroxinate, How's the cancer doing? And for the record for the thread...while a fully optimized monk may well be a terror in melee, it should go without saying that an even slightly optimized wizard can [u]SUMMON[/u] something worse, and do it more than once from within a time stop :D
Slowly tearing at my soul every time I see someone coming to the defense of the Monk.
And yes, I totally agree that a completely unoptimized caster could in fact summon things more terrifying and more powerful then the monk could ever hope to be.
It's as if the "Supreme Power Monk" is like Mustafa from Austin Powers. Completely and utterly useless, except for making me laugh.
Dear Giacomo,
Please refrain from posting anything referring to a monk again.
Love,
Deox.
Your monk builds invariably rely on either cheese or questionable rulings, ie, the Polymorph line of spells, the ability to buy partially charged wands with exactly the amount of charges you need (seriously, wtf?), and masterwork tools for skills that may not have them (what *is the masterwork skill for UMD? Is it the same as the one for Sense Motive?).
A good build, and a good guide, will be useful to a wide variety of people. Your builds/guides only work if the DM allows Polymorph and partially charged wands - and not all do. In fact, I venture to say that most do not.
It is commonly regarded that the fact that you have to resort to questionable tactics in order to make your monk builds commutative is indicative of the weakness of the monk class, because if you can only be powerful through cheese, then you were probably weak.
The 100% legal tactics you've tried are also pretty lame sometimes. Permanent Enlarge Person (Works up to monk level 20, when you become an outsider) is vulnerable to dispel, and playing a Large character in a party of Medium ones is going to be problematic, such as indoors or in urban enviornments. Enlarge does give you better grappling, but the grappling tactic starts to such when people start having access to Freedom of Movement - WBL wise, at level 12 you can afford a Ring of it, and the spell itself can show up at level 7.
Furthermore, you can't exercise your stealth skills while sneaking, yet you claim that this is where monks excel. I don't care how high you get your hide modifier to be, you have to have cover to duck behind in order to hide, and you are cutting down on cover as a Large monk. Let's face it, cover for Large creatures is not always present, and unless you are Solid Snake, you can't hide at will. Considering that your monk is apparently always hiding*, and relies on this and detecting the enemy ahead of time in order to Buff with wanded spells of short duration, the lack of an ability to hide is a problem.
Speaking of UMD, it does provide you with buffs, except that it is an expensive tactic, and your UMD isn't going to be very high compared to classes that specialize in it. You're not going to have many skill points left over after cross classing UMD either, so how are you going to use your skill list to its fullest potential?
Your monks are often non human. That's 4 skill points/level assuming a 10 in INT. 2 go to UMD, so that's 2 skill points/level to divide among Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble.
Last I checked, your Joker monk has a tumble of +14 at level 20. That's really not enough if there are multiple enemies you have to tumble around. It only works if you face one opponent.
So, that leaves 1 skill point/level for stealth skills, of which there are two. This can be mathamatically proven to be insufficient.
You'd get more skill points if you increased INT, but that means you won't have a very high STR, DEX, WIS, or CON, doesn't it?
12 Con, despite what you may think about Monks not having MAD or being able to bet hit ever, really isn't enough. Your base save is going to be +12 at level 20. +13 with 12 Con pales in comparison to the saves of classes that can afford to dump a 16 in it and allocate stat points to CON while leveling.
Think you can be hit? You don't need to be hit to be in trouble. Magic Missile auto-hits, for example, Solid Fog renders your movement null, and Forcecage pretty much eliminates you as a threat.
You're going to bring up your SR as a defense against spells, but many spells, such as Solid Fog, do not care about your SR, and it isn't that hard to penetrate SR. Robe of the Archmagi gives +2 to such checks, as do the feats Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, the Archmage's High Arcana, and the Orange Ioun Stone.
that's a +8 to Caster level Checks to overcome SR. Your monk has a 10+ class level, right?
I'm pretty sure that equates to a good chance to punch through.
I've never really seen you address these issues. I don't know whether its because you never had the time, or what, but it would help your case if you could present a solid answer to these issues.
*Seriously, is the monk ashamed of his class or something? I guess if I was a Giamonk, I'd be ashamed too...
that's a +8 to Caster level Checks to overcome SR. Your monk has a 10+ class level, right?
I'm pretty sure that equates to a good chance to punch through.
If the number of class levels on both sides is the same, that's X+1d20+8 vs X+10, which means success on a 2.
Oh, except that doesn't apply to your wands, which have a much lower caster level.
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I liked this thread more when it was about kitties.
Going to a more serious note. Assuming you had the support of your DM and you wished to join an already ongoing campaign as a Monk. If you were dead set on helping the group by grappling (which you should be doing) why would you not go towards something like Black Blood Cultist instead of full 20 monk?
I guess I'm just confused.
I was meaning to say, if you had the option of going BBC why the heck wouldn't you? A straight 20 monk is terrible. At least the BBC is going to contribute something, with exceptional grappling.
I hear enhancement bonuses don't stack. I made a mistake with my lance. So I suppose we are even. Other than this, consider me done with this entire debate. There's too much bile and wrong-think on both sides for me to get a word in edgewise.
That said, the flaws you point out are solvable. Particularly if you applied your considerable ingenuity to them. I suppose I wonder why you work so hard with monks when it is such a rocky field to till.
Goodnight. I'm retiring from the boards for the foreseeable future barring the maintenance of my guides, and giving bits of advice. I'm burned out. This debate which is baseless in all respects on both sides has helped lay the final wreath of folly at my feet.
There's too much bile and wrong-think on both sides for me to get a word in edgewise.
Kinda like how I wanted everyone to calm down and have more fun...
Instead all I got was a massive word bomb from Dandu. In less than 24 hours this thread went from 6 to 8 pages. Just. Wow.
I would respond to certain remarks but that would show them as worthy of response... If we actually lose Rocktopus to massive snarkage I'm gonna be mad
The issue is that I have no incentive to remain in this conversation because it's clear that neither side is listening to the other, and both will take the absolutely optimum interpretations of the rules to suit their own peculiar arguments.
Let me clarify that I think both sides are childish. I like Dandu\Solo personally, however, and he has by and at large treated most people with a sardonic respect. I can understand him. I have seen him demonstrate competence. I may prefer him to you. This does not mean that I do not acknowledge his failings or culpability. We're all sons of *****es now, in other words.
That said, the weight of the argument rests firmly against monks....
One of our wiser members once explained to me gently that yes, many classes could be made good. No one has ever argued that monk could not be harangued and rebuilt, and in a wholly theoretical arena be arranged to be good. I don't give a rat's ass about that. I care about proof, battle reports, campaign diaries, and the over-arching opinion of the CO community whose hearts you have by your own arrogance failed repeatedly to win.
Why?
Because you have three or four good builds, where barbarians have hundreds.
Where wizards are infinitely versatile, you tie yourself to one purpose.
The list extends as an infinite series.
I applaud your clever work, denounce your insular and largely ridiculous habits...
And tender my resignation in full from the "practical" side of CO.
wow - thread explosion :D
Some information to keep this thread focused:
****
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1. Yup. I am the original author of the guide, under the name of Sir Giacomo over at the GitPG forums. Well, Solo, my old nemesis, so we meet again - and again the advantage is mine
I had hoped that approaching this guide again from a more neutral viewpoint after it had been kicked back into life by someone else would be good, but it was not to be.
2. The guide is for CORE environment only (says so in the beginning). So it does not make much sense to push psychic warriors, fists of the forests and other monkish prestige classes, totemists, non-core uber spells and combos, as well as the typical (and even wrong!) "play a swordsage instead" stuff into this thread.
And, btw, using a CORE environment BY FAR will be more liked by DMs, rather than, for instance, playing wizards shapechangeing into some strange kind of tortoise they can NEVER ingame get information about to always get the surprise round. Or forcing a DM to work out houserules how the swordsage should work.
3. The guide does NOT assume partial wands, although it suggests their use in the example lvl 1-20 build I provided (follow the original thread). Not assuming partial wands means you get the wands around 1-x levels later. While partial wands are perfectly legal by the RAW and RAI (the guide explains why), there are tons of other ways to get what this guide is all about (check the 2 Giamonk principles also written in the guide):
To use magic from spells or items in order get synergies with monk class abilities and thus get a better chance to overcome caster foes
(say, a fly spell and movement enhancement which STACKS, Dr_Rocktopus. Nice of you to admit -although very indirectly- that your barbarian build was completely illegal and that you now withdraw from this discussion - for reasons of your own.)
As such, the Giamonk can, for instance, fly faster than the Batman (barring the typical response "phantom steed" which, unfortunately, can get killed in less than a round from the level onwards that the wizard gets it). There are tons of examples for this to put Batman under pressure. All provided in the guide, but continually ignored by many.
4. Nor does this guide assume a "magic mart". It only uses what the rules provide. And the only rules that the DMG provides on the average availability of magic items for buying is the GP limit of towns (p. 137 DMG).* You'll also notice that in the example monk build of level 1-20 I also followed the general DMG recommendation to only have at most 1/4 wbl as most expensive item in the equipment of the respective levels.
Fluffwise, I have always said that I'd handle it different as a DM to avoid "magic marts". Bazars of the bizarre Leiber-style, or gather information checks from the party rogue to find that particular seller or mini-adventures to obtain such items for gold should be the norm. What should not be the norm, though, is for a DM to allow a monk in his western medieval game and only hand out fighter weapons and armour plus some magic goodies for the wizard and cleric. This makes the monk player very sad (and rightly so! ;) )
I even suggested that the monk gets some kind of cloth girdles from his monastery upon gaining a level which work just like wands, but contain all the spells that fit his school. For instance
enlarge person, bull's strength, rage (the bard spell) wands for a monk of the "bear" school.
cat's grace, poison, haste in wands for a monk of the "snake" school.
Be creative.
*Funnily, the very same critics of magic items available for sale often do not think it any problem that a wizard can buy all his spell components and magic item materials without problem ;)
5. Overall, the guide draws and drew a lot of emotional response - which really surprised me (and still does). There seems to be some kind of "holy cow" of DD3.5 on maxing boards - which is that of absolute caster uberness, in particular that of the wizard. A wizard! With d4 hit points, two weak saves and lucky to at all survive until contingency becomes available at level 11.
To then go and pinpoint the monk (of all classes!) that it lacks defenses and with CON 12 (+d8 hit points and healing capability btw) so much that he needs a group to take pity on him - it's just such a big irony that I can't help laughing repeatedly about such a notion of what the real power of the classes are.
A lot of the criticism usually comes across as "ohmygod, monks suck - so don't try to prove the opposite". Or arguing on the basis of completely wrong rules notions (aka, monks cannot flurry in a grapple, cannot receive enhancement bonuses to their unarmed strike etc). Which I then correct -but without triggering any steepening of the learnign curve. Oh my.
Another tell-telling sign of the emotionality of responses is that one of the critics in frustration about being proven wrong time and again in the original thread copy-pasted without asking my permission a completely unreadable version of my guide from the other board to post it here with the words: "tear it up, boys". What kind of discussion style is that?
6. Do not get me wrong- I do not think the wizard is weak. Far from it. There are many, many things only a wizard (or sorcerer) can pull - in particular in the (mass) offensive, battlefield control and divination/info-gathering department. But overall combat or survivability is NOT their strength. That's more the monk's forte (or that of the barbarian, fighter and ranger classes. Druid and cleric also score quite well in this regard).
1. Yup. I am the original author of the guide, under the name of Sir Giacomo over at the GitPG forums. Well, Solo, my old nemesis, so we meet again - and again the advantage is mine
I had hoped that approaching this guide again from a more neutral viewpoint after it had been kicked back into life by someone else would be good, but it was not to be.
2. The guide is for CORE environment only (says so in the beginning). So it does not make much sense to push psychic warriors, fists of the forests and other monkish prestige classes, totemists, non-core uber spells and combos, as well as the typical (and even wrong!) "play a swordsage instead" stuff into this thread.
And, btw, using a CORE environment BY FAR will be more liked by DMs, rather than, for instance, playing wizards shapechangeing into some strange kind of tortoise they can NEVER ingame get information about to always get the surprise round. Or forcing a DM to work out houserules how the swordsage should work.
3. The guide does NOT assume partial wands, although it suggests their use in the example lvl 1-20 build I provided (follow the original thread). Not assuming partial wands means you get the wands around 1-x levels later. While partial wands are perfectly legal by the RAW and RAI (the guide explains why), there are tons of other ways to get what this guide is all about (check the 2 Giamonk principles also written in the guide):
To use magic from spells or items in order get synergies with monk class abilities and thus get a better chance to overcome caster foes
(say, a fly spell and movement enhancement which STACKS, Dr_Rocktopus. Nice of you to admit -although very indirectly- that your barbarian build was completely illegal and that you now withdraw from this discussion - for reasons of your own.)
As such, the Giamonk can, for instance, fly faster than the Batman (barring the typical response "phantom steed" which, unfortunately, can get killed in less than a round from the level onwards that the wizard gets it). There are tons of examples for this to put Batman under pressure. All provided in the guide, but continually ignored by many.
4. Nor does this guide assume a "magic mart". It only uses what the rules provide. And the only rules that the DMG provides on the average availability of magic items for buying is the GP limit of towns (p. 137 DMG).* You'll also notice that in the example monk build of level 1-20 I also followed the general DMG recommendation to only have at most 1/4 wbl as most expensive item in the equipment of the respective levels.
Fluffwise, I have always said that I'd handle it different as a DM to avoid "magic marts". Bazars of the bizarre Leiber-style, or gather information checks from the party rogue to find that particular seller or mini-adventures to obtain such items for gold should be the norm. What should not be the norm, though, is for a DM to allow a monk in his western medieval game and only hand out fighter weapons and armour plus some magic goodies for the wizard and cleric. This makes the monk player very sad (and rightly so! ;) )
I even suggested that the monk gets some kind of cloth girdles from his monastery upon gaining a level which work just like wands, but contain all the spells that fit his school. For instance
enlarge person, bull's strength, rage (the bard spell) wands for a monk of the "bear" school.
cat's grace, poison, haste in wands for a monk of the "snake" school.
Be creative.
*Funnily, the very same critics of magic items available for sale often do not think it any problem that a wizard can buy all his spell components and magic item materials without problem ;)
5. Overall, the guide draws and drew a lot of emotional response - which really surprised me (and still does). There seems to be some kind of "holy cow" of DD3.5 on maxing boards - which is that of absolute caster uberness, in particular that of the wizard. A wizard! With d4 hit points, two weak saves and lucky to at all survive until contingency becomes available at level 11.
To then go and pinpoint the monk (of all classes!) that it lacks defenses and with CON 12 (+d8 hit points and healing capability btw) so much that he needs a group to take pity on him - it's just such a big irony that I can't help laughing repeatedly about such a notion of what the real power of the classes are.
A lot of the criticism usually comes across as "ohmygod, monks suck - so don't try to prove the opposite". Or arguing on the basis of completely wrong rules notions (aka, monks cannot flurry in a grapple, cannot receive enhancement bonuses to their unarmed strike etc). Which I then correct -but without triggering any steepening of the learnign curve. Oh my.
Another tell-telling sign of the emotionality of responses is that one of the critics in frustration about being proven wrong time and again in the original thread copy-pasted without asking my permission a completely unreadable version of my guide from the other board to post it here with the words: "tear it up, boys". What kind of discussion style is that?
6. Do not get me wrong- I do not think the wizard is weak. Far from it. There are many, many things only a wizard (or sorcerer) can pull - in particular in the (mass) offensive, battlefield control and divination/info-gathering department. But overall combat or survivability is NOT their strength. That's more the monk's forte (or that of the barbarian, fighter and ranger classes. Druid and cleric also score quite well in this regard).
Yup. I am the original author of the guide, under the name of Sir Giacomo over at the GitPG forums. Well, Solo, my old nemesis, so we meet again - and again the advantage is mine
Hardly.
So far, your builds are still flawed, every thread you touch turns bad, and you've contributed significantly to people leaving the forum once again.
This is obviously some strange usage of the word 'advantage' that I wasn't previously aware of.
Anyhow, this does not matter.
The real sad part of this is that you've been doing this for so long, yet haven't changed your position.
To quote,
"A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life."
- Muhammad Ali (Monk/Barbarian?)
I spend a lot of time keeping an open mind about classes and learning new things, constantly revising my opinions. I even helped create Fistbeard Beardfist on Gitp - me, Doc Roc, and Fist of the Pharaoh.
How've you been doing?
Now if you will excuse me, I think I'll go beat some sense into Doc Roc with the Crowbar of Reality and some fudge.
Haikus are easy.
Sometimes they don't make sense.
Refrigerator.
Now, after Dandu/Solo and his "gang of 5"
...
Just noticed this additional post - will answer to it right away.
So, you think me childish - and yet it is you who withdraws after your point has been disproven, without acknowledgement that you have been wrong?*
Interesting.
*EDIT: Do not get me wrong - you DID admit you were wrong about the lance - but not about the many other things, and that your whole point of proving that a barbarian can easily beat a monk at level 20 was futile this way. EDIT END
...
Who do you address now? Dandu/Solo or me?
Anyhow, does not matter.
...
Yes, that shall henceforth be my goal ...
I'll not stoop, nor bow my head. I am not withdrawing because I am wrong.
I am withdrawing because this is all wrong, this is all foolish, and I will not stand among the riot of idiocy.
I am well-known on these boards, and I ask seldom for respect or kindness and yet I have asked for it here and received none.
Go to hell.
Realistically, you end up limiting yourself in usefulness compared to other classes. That's not saying the monk can't be a contributing member to an already established group. It is stating, however, that you're probably going to be better off with something different. Core or not.
I've done little battle tests and scenarios, and though the monk doesn't perform poorly, it hardly ever does good, never exceptional. In core only, any class can be taken and out-do the monk. This is largely proportionate to the skill of the player behind the character. A bad player playing an Incantatrix or a Frenzied Berzerker won't use those PrCs to their insanely powerful potential. This is true of any class, including the monk. The monk however, has one major caveat: even good or skilled players can only take a monk so far before being easily outdone.