Stats priority
STR --> your lowest stat
DEX--> your lowest stat or average,the inverse of CON depending of your skill and strategy
CON--> your 2nd high stat or average, see DEX.
INT--> for sure your highest stat. Good for skills points, trapfinding skills, casting
WIS--> lowest or average only if you want to have good "sense" skill (spot, listen, sense motive)
CHA--> average or 2nd high if you play a social beguiler
The handbook continu at post #5....
Your have some roguish caracteristics:
Lot of skill points
6+INT point/level and your INT gonna be high really high so this mean your are probably on the class with the most skill point/level. You have a lot of good class skills too for a mage like class.
Trapfinding
So even if your wizard role is focused on 2 schools, your could fill the trapfinder role.
Advantage when you cast on denied-DEX opponent and way to feint faster(surprise/cloak casting)
Your "sneak spell" is better support than a rogue with access to invisibility spells. Upgrade the DC, easier way to beat SR with the automatic beat SR at level 20.
Your spells
You are the Warmage of the illusion/enchantment. Same spell progression but another thematic than damage spell. But what you can obtain is more diverse than the warmage.
Also your casting stats are INT instead of CHA, wich mean more skills. But as the warmage couldn't dump INT, you couldn't your CHA for the skill interaction.
Most of your spells interact with the ennemy (most of the enchantment spell and 1/2 illusion spell) wich mean your spell DC must be the higher it can be.
The illusion spell are mostly disbelievable spells or buff spell. So try to not trigger the disbelieve too easily for the opponnent. Keep in mind that illusion wotk better when the disbelive spell is not rolled.
Spontaneous casting!!
What mean versatility with a lots of enchantment/illusion spells?? Not to much because most of your spells have SR and will be against a Will save. The other spells will be your emergency tools. The "hold" spells are good choice for arcane caster, becuase they have Fortitude save instead of Will. "Power words" have no save, so it will be your last answer.
For the "XXX image" spells, try to use the best one in each situation for keeping your higher spell slot available. But if you really need to affect all the senses, just dont cast silent image.
You could apply the same logic to your invilibility spells.
And cast the right spell on the right creature (no charm monster on plants, undeads or constructs)!!
Metamagics
Free Silent and still spell, for suporting your theme aplicable when you want because of spontaneous casting
Spell focus(enchantment)+Greater : for the DC of the spell, who is really critical for this school
Improved Feint (with Expertise) : Feinting as a swift action is really good. OK, you ll probably feint as a move action then surprise cast but some time you'll want to move too. Or if you want to add a metamagic on your spell, you'll need to be able to feint swiftly.
On the other hand, if you live an invisible life (being always invisible), feinting is not usable often.
You must have Expertise before. Its not a bad feat for being untouchable while controlling your illusion/ dominated foe /charmed foe.
Arcane Discipline : for healing or other options but that requirement not to dump WIS
Spell focus (illusion) : Good for spell with DC if you want to being able to make the others "feel" your illusion.
Mobile Spellcasting : is an alternate or additionnal way to move while casting with Improved Feint, but don't give you the Feint bonus.
Action Surge (Eberron C.S.) is another great feat for placement or casting 2 spells in same turn.
Improved Toughness : OK, you have d6, and its better than most arcane caster. But more hp is never bad.
Goad : could be fun with illusion, invisibility, mirror image. Wanna play "catch me if you can"?
Insightful Reflexes : will probably better than Lightning Reflex if you adopt an high CON low DEX strategy. So if you are always well hiden, the only thing that can could hurt you are area spells.
Master Manipulator : could be fun but are too much circonstancial
Battle caster is a bad choice because you probably want to stay mobile.
Extend spell could work fine with lot of your spells
Repeat/Twin/Heighten/Chain spell have the same goals; have your enchantment spell work some time or on multiple target!
Silent spell (free at level 5) is your best friend while invisible
Still spell (free at level 10) is great in the same time or when you are grappled (hurray for the still freedom of movement!!) or when your really dont want to be heared. Its perfect to use silent+still in a social situation.
Arcane thesis is good also, because this spell have a free Still and Silent Metamagic. A good choice is dominate person/monster
Fade into violence is good for switching the hit on your puppet
If you want to be a manifest spellshaper, Mastery of Dreams, of Faerie Enchantment and of Twisted Shadow (Player guide to Eberron) are really great.
Shape Soulmeld is great with many soulmeld :
- Illusion Veil for another way to boost illusion DC
- Truthseeker Googles or Theft Gloves for a +2 boost on 3 different skills
- Necrocarnum Touch, Kruthik claw, Krenshar Mask, Lamia Belt for a +4 boost on 2 skills
- Blink shirt for an ever-ready escape way or a way to forget doors when scouting.
...and this presume you don't have any essentia. If you go with theses feat, Midnight Metamagic is a great feat to have. Cast your "sudden spell" early in the day then use the essentia for powering a soulmeld.
Extraordinary Concentration : for keeping casting when you cast image spells.
Nymph's Kiss (Exalted) add skill points, Charisma boost and better save
Vow's of Non violence (Exalted) add +4 to your DC but you must be non-violent...
Mindsight (Lord of Madness) + Mindbender 1 allows you to target any sentient creatures within 100 feet and you know their “type.”
Song of the Dead (from Dragon Magazine): Metamagic feat that enables your enchantments to work against undead for +1 spell level.
--> New interesting stuff for Beguiler in Complete Mage:
Dazzling illusion can be good, but usualy, illusion purpose is to hide thing, not reveal it.
Rapid Metamagic can allow you to Quicken spell
Unsettling Enchantment let your enchantment do something even when save are fail
The Reserve feat are not so good for a Beguiler: you have a big number of spell slot and your keys spells are one it last long. The only one good to me is Magic disruption because it could be done as an immediate action. Even though, the caster level boost of these feats is interesting in addition the the Spell-like ability effect
Lot of trick help Beguiler Theme. The best one are
Conceal Spellcasting!!!!! (cast and don't be seen casting)
A must for casting in social situation
Swift Concentration!!!!! (concentration as a swift action)
Great for Maintaining your image spell and cast the same round!
The Interaction Tricks
Assume Quirk, Group Fake-Out, Second Impression, Social Recovery, Timely Misdirection are a must for social and Beguiler in Disguise.
Mosquito bite and the Movement tricks could be aslo good, even for a non gish but not at the same power level as a rogue.
Prestige class
Beguiler is not a class that gain a boost when multiclassed, especially because you will probably have less skill pts/level
Daggerspell shaper or arcane trickster seem first to be dedicated choices, but because you don't have damage spells, sneak attack is almost useless. You have better skill and class features keeping being Beguiler.
Mindbender follow a similar theme as beguiler. Mindbender 1 is a sure choice with no caster level lost.
Anima mage (Tome of magic) via Bind Vestige+improved Bind Vestige add lots of adaptability to the beguiler. And the metamagic interaction is well suit too.
Soulcaster (Magic of Incarnum)is a choice with more caster level of compromis but the soulmeld are great, especially the boost to your caster level to your illusion spell.
Shadowcraft Mage (Race of Stone) boost your illusion a lot
Human Paragon (Unearthed Arcana) help you with INT, 1 feat, Hit Points and add you a class skill (like Intimidate) at the cost of 1 less caster level, 6 less skill points and slowing your class feature. Could be good with an intensive feats build without flaws.
Recaster (Race of Eberron) until level 4 is a good choice for adding spells to your spell list and for quick metamagic
Shadowcraft mage (Race of Stone) is a good class for focusing on illusion if you take some shadow spells with advanve learning
Fatespinner could be good for one shot boosting spell DC
Loredelver from Race of Destiny is a nice class too with 1 caster level loss but interesting alternate class features without skill number loss. It is a good path for qualifying for Fochlucan lyrist.
Shadow Adept from FRCS is a easy dip for 3 free feats.
New interesting stuff for Beguiler in Complete Mage:
Abjurant champion and Unseen seer for more "gish build". A great build with these classes are Changeling rogue 1/Beguiler 6/ Unseen seer 8/Abjurant Champion 5 for BAB 14 and caster level 19 with a lot of skill points. The Seer is good for kepping your skill ranks high but Divination spell power can cost you a lot! You could reach only level 5 in this class for a minor negative effect.
Begulier work well with wizard for Ultimate Magus because both cast with INT.
The caster level lost with Nightmare Spinner cost to much for what it does.
New interesting stuff for Beguiler in Complete Scoundrel:
Magical Trickster is a great way class for boosting DC for tricky Magic and metamagic trick (Heighten spell 4 levels) --> +5 to the DC of a spell. But you lose 1 caster level, skills number and access and special Feature advance.
Uncanny Trickster is a great way for boosting your skill numbers for a caster level trade. Its virtually 12 skill ranks/level (8+2 (trick) + 2 (favorite trick)). Your class feature advance on 2 levels, something really good for Beguiler.
BUILDS
Social Beguiler 20 with Spell focus(enchantment+illusion), Greater Spell focus(enchantment+illusion), Expertise, Improved feint, Improved toughness
Hiden Beguiler 19/Mindbender 1 with Spell focus(enchantment+illusion), Greater Spell focus(enchantment+illusion),Mobile spellcasting, Goad, Improved toughness
Adaptable Beguiler 4/Anima mage 10/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage5 with Bind Vestige,Improved Bind Vestige, Extend spell, Twin spell, Spell focus(enchantment+illusion), Extra spell
"Spells gonna work" Beguiler 20 with 20 with Spell focus(enchantment+illusion), Greater Spell focus(enchantment+illusion),Mastery of Dreams, Spell Penetration, Greater spell Penetration
Changeling Beguiler 16/Recaster 4 with Personna Immersion, Extend spell, Spell focus(illusion), Greater Spell focus(illusion), Mastery of Dreams, of Faerie Enchantment and of Twisted Shadow
Human Gish Beguiler6/Swashbuckler 3/Eldritch Knight 10/ Spellsword 1 with Arcane strike, Able learner, maybe Battle Caster and other gish-like feats.
Divining/abjurer "fighter" Changeling rogue 1/Beguiler 6/ Unseen seer 8/Abjurant Champion 5
High INT Chameleon build : Beguiler 2/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon 8 or 10 /...
Tricky scoundrell Beguiler 14/Magical Trickster 3/Uncanny Trickster 3
The skills in the enumerations are list in priority
Be a puzzle!
You are the master of suptility with skills and spells to help you, so BE TRICKY. Have cover identities, don't reveal yourself (even to party member), be stealthy, have second plan. Your tools are not weapons, they are those you "control".
In resume, know a lot on others, don't let others know on you.
Go synergic!
Try to maximize your synergy bonus. 7 "ranks" for the cost of 5 is always great!
To hide or not to hide
You could play hiden via invisibility+Move Silently+Hide+Sleight of hand+Still+Silent spell or you can play revelead via trick illusion+ Bluff+Diplo+Diguise+Speak language+Forgery. Its possible to support the 2 kind of roles with your lot of skills but try to have a "best one" in combat. Bluff(and disguised too) are really good support for your illusions. Your enchanted puppet can also enforce your illusions.
Concentration is a must if you want to use surprise casting (don't forget, you must be in melee). Its good also for qualifying for Mobile Spellcasting and Extraordinary Concentration feat.
Trapfinder?
Consider Search+Disable Device. Don't take Open Lock ranks, you have Knock at level 2.
Good moover?
Consider Tumble+Balance+Concentration (for mobile spellcasting feat). Tumble are great in full defense when controlling illusions or puppets.
Don't want to caught at your own game by others?
Consider Sense Motive+Spot+Listen
Need infos?
Kownledge(arcana and local)+Gather Info
Escape artist will be useless when you have freedom of movement
You don't need a good Base attack (no ray spell too). You have freedom of movement (castable with still spell). Its best if you hide well. STR is a dump stat. So all of this say PLAY A SMALL RACE!!!
--> Gnome for illusion affinity or Whipser Gnome for speed+Darkvision+lots of racial bonus on good skill
--> Strongheart Hafling subrace with the extra feat for more feat
--> Kobold for speed and Natural armor, but you will suffer from abilities ajustment
Medium can be only good for speed + another advantage not available with small race.
--> Human for feat AND skill points
--> Gray elf for +2 INT(other kinds of elf with +2 INT are ok too)
--> Changeling for the minor shape change. Work well with the thematic.
With a full caster, race with level adjustement is not optimum.
Your spell list is similar as the Bard but gain access to big spells faster.
1- The Enchantment spells
1.1 The enchantments with long term interaction (Ex charm spells)
This spell can create you a puppets army. Play with your social interaction well and you will keep your army longer. Try to prepare the way your puppet will act so you'll not have to give when them ordre when you will want to go hidden/invisible.
1.2 The "on the fly" "do what i want" (incite riot, suggestion,...)
They are great combat spell cast on fighter kind class (low will save)
1.3 The dominate spells
This spells are really strong because puppet is under your direct control. But you will gain no information from your target.
1.4 The hexes (hold/halt/stun/daze/confusion/...)
You have a good mix of hex and what makes 2 different for you is what kind of creature it can easily affect (more than the real effect)
2- The illusion spell
2.1 the "image" spell (mirror image not included)
These spell are really polyvalent but need concentration. Hope your DM will make the NPC react well and not allow the saving throw too easily.
2.2 the "invisibiltity" spell (mislead include)
They are a key to this class. Invisibility can be use more often than Greater invisibility if you play it well. Enforce with first Move silently then Hide for better effect.
What can't see you can't hurt you so use it often
2.3 the "semi visible" spell (blur, mirror image, ...)
Are an alternative to invisibility but don't have the same effect. Could be a good way to command your puppet openly.
2.4 the "divination ward" (screen, nondetection,...)
Try to use it well when you know the kind or situatiuon you are in.
3. Other tool spells
3.1 Buff spells
Haste, mage armor, .. it's cool to have spell always good to use when facing the no-enchantment-or-illusion-on-me-mouhahaha evil monster.
3.2 Divination spell
Wow, it's fun to have those spells in this kind of caster. If you have it with the wizards, you locked 1 precious spell slot for nothing. With sorcerer, you don't want to waste a spell known for this kind of spell.You are the right spellcaster to have it; they are always ready to help you at no cost.
These spells also enforce what you have to do to socialy manipulate others (like detect thought).
3.3 Spells against spells (Dispel Magic, Break enchantment, Spell Turning)
Same as 3.2 and 2.4
3.4 Area control spells (obscuring mist, zone of silence)
Great combat spells, so try to split the foe group with it or protect your retreat/move.
3.5 Inclassable
Freedom of movement is a great addition to your spell list for escaping lots of situation(grapple, water, ...).
Glibness is the way to sell ice to Eskimos. +30 to bluff is really insane!!!
Good choices for advance learning
"Power words" spells from Race of the dragon. Power word, Pain is your big damage tool for early levels.
"shadow evocation/conjuration" spells
Modify memory
Shadow Ribbons.
Spectral Weapon.
Superior Invisibility
Distract Assailant
Heroism
Programmed ammnesia
If you convice your DM to apply the same PHB2 alternate class feature as the Warmage, you could have more choices. But the choice depend on which kind of Beguiler you will be.
I don't suppose Beguiler can easily qualify for Daggerspell Mage?
Nope. No SA dice. But even if they did the PrC wouldn't help them much. Daggerspell Mage has a more restrictive skill list & Beguiler doesn't have any damage spells so a lot of the daggercast stuff wouldn't help them.
Whilst it doesnt have SA to qualify for DS mage independantly, surely its better then sorcerer or wizard due to more skills/level?
I have just one quick question ... would taking 2 levels of rogue be an alright level dip? So, the build would look like this: rogue2/beguiler18. Although being able to bypass SR is such a potent ability.BTW an awesome feat for a beguiler would be the combat charm feat from Dragon Compendium. It basically denies saves bonuses on charm spells in combat.
Thus, for instance, you could be a Warmage with Limited Wish albeit at a +1 spell level.
I don't mean to hijack the thread btw, but, it seems we've talked about warmage here.
-=TD=-
I think it's a nicely balanced tradeoff & really like the idea. Think it would work well for the Beguiler too. Add shadow spells or get some other useful stuff? It would be a fun choice to make.
I was thinking the same thing. However it doesn't have any of the Shadow spells. You would have to get those via feat or Advanced Learning.
They have Shadow Walk. So either you use your 11th level Advanced Learning to pick up Shadow Conjuration, or you wait until 12th and qualify with Shadow Walk. I'd prefer the latter. And they have Silent Image, which is all you need to take proper advantage of the benefits offered by Shadowcraft Mage.
Aside: They also have Legion of Sentinels, which is a spell in need of some serious errata. What attack bonus do they use, and how much damage do they do?
-=TD=-
I wonder how well the Beguiler would work with some good ol' Arcane Trickster...
-=TD=-
The Beguiler doesn't have a lot of weapon-like spells and they have poor BAB, so adding Sneak Attack doesn't do too much for them, I think (although their Improved Feint as a swift action ability is O.K.). Arcane Trickster has fewer skill points, too. So why would you sacrifice two caster levels to get the required prerequisites if there's so little synergy? (Ditto for Daggerspell Mage.)
1) Beguiler 1 Heighten Spell (1) Earth Sense (F) Earth Spell (F)
2) Beguiler 2
3) Beguiler 3 Spell Focus (Illusion) (3)
4) Beguiler 4
5) Beguiler 5 Silent Spell (B5)
6) Mind Bender 1 Mindsight (6)
7) Beguiler 6
8) Beguiler 7 expanded knowledge: shadow well
9) Shadowcraft Mage 1
10) Shadowcraft Mage 2
11) Shadowcraft Mage 3
12) Shadowcraft Mage 4
13) Shadowcraft Mage 5
After that going back to beguiler isnt a bad choice, given all the skill points you get. A few levels of fatespinner would work pretty well, given how save dependant a lot of the beguilers spells are.
SF/GSF enchantment would make for decent feat choices, as would spell rehersal and mobile casting (or whatever its called). Extend spell is always nice for an enchantment heavy caster.
So which class are the best?
Beguiler's advantages :
- Trapfinding, with INT as first stat also
- INT base casting, wich mean more skill points and better INT base skill check
- More spell known (all the spell list)
- More spell slots
- Acess to level 7,8 and 9 spell, and faster access to high level spell
- Cloak casting and suprise casting class feature
Bard advantages :
- Barding Knowledge (or barding knack)
- Bardic music
- Access to a wider variety of spells, particularly the cure spells. Have to possibility to easily use more type of scroll,wand,...
- Better base attack bonus
- Better Reflex save
- High CHA wich mean only high CHA skill check
SO? What is your verdict?
Bard advantages :
- Access to a wider variety of spells, particularly the cure spells. Have to possibility to easily use more type of scroll,wand,...
Note that they both have Use Magic Device as a class skill, so wand/scroll use may be almost equal after a certain point (although the beguiler will have a lower charisma).
If you think about the classical role of a good party(Fighter,Cleric,Rogue,Wizard) , the Beguiler fill the rogue role exept for
sneak attack, but not all is sneakable and attack is mostly the fighter job.
The beguiler is not a swiss knife as a wizard of a sorcerer but illusion/enchantment have a great synergy.
The bard are a little more jack of all trade but not really good in a role.
So beguiler win by power potential!!!
Note that they both have Use Magic Device as a class skill, so wand/scroll use may be almost equal after a certain point (although the beguiler will have a lower charisma).
But if you dont want to spend skill points in Use Magic Device, the bard is better.
Another way to say it : the Beguiler gain more than the bard if he spend skill points in Use Magic Device
However, I can't really see a situation when facing Undead, Oozes, or Constructs that really benefits a Beguiler at all.
For Ooze, i am with you.
But undead and construct can be fooled by illusion.
You also have tool spells like time stop, glitterdust,haste, slow so you are not worthless.
The Beguiler doesn't have a lot of weapon-like spells and they have poor BAB, so adding Sneak Attack doesn't do too much for them, I think (although their Improved Feint as a swift action ability is O.K.). Arcane Trickster has fewer skill points, too. So why would you sacrifice two caster levels to get the required prerequisites if there's so little synergy? (Ditto for Daggerspell Mage.)
I should note that nothing with Daggerspell Mage requires a weapon-like spell. The early abilities let you cast while holding your daggers, the later level 8ish ability is basically Arcane Reach for a touch spell, though I don't know how many touch spells Beguiler gets. The final level 10 ability lets you quicken any spell while full attacking, which is free Quicken.
You still get the benefit of sneak attack since the PrC is based around dealing damage with daggers while casting spells. That said, I don't know how many, if any, touch spells the Beguiler gets normally.
I know the goal of illusion casters has been effective shadow evocations for a while now, but I the PHB2 and SC have changed the paradigm. I think as the party trapfinder & skill monkey I don't necessarily have to have the explosive power of a pseudo-evocationist. Honestly the new non-lethal damage spells (whelm, etc) seem just fine as occasional nukes. Failing that extra spell: nuke is a good option. For the most part whether the enemy is knocked out or dead, the encounter is pretty much over. In any event, I think a staff provides all the offensive spell power you might need.
If your playing FR or your DM incorporates weave magic, I like the Shadow Adept more. The bonuses to CL and for overcoming SR are very nice.
Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / Shadow Adept 4 + / Beguiler.
If mid level SR is your main concern a single dip into Shadow Adept nets you 3 bonus feats. Combined with cloaked casting SR shouldn't bother you too much. Alternatively you could use Shadow Adept after 6th level to delay the 7th level advanced learning before dropping into Shadowcraft Mage.
Another route to combat worthiness would be Arcane Disciple: Summoning.
Is it a spontaneous caster? If so, exalted arcanist would be pretty good thanks to adding a not bad 23 spells to the known list, aswell as choosing extra spells known. Has4skills/level but that not bad, its just not that good :/
Though the spells arent immensly powerful, the mother cyst feat from LM adds a littlemore versatility aswell as a lot of flavour for beguilers of a more evil bent.
I personally see myself as going for a build along the lines of elf ranger1/beguiler9/master of the yuirwood10, mainly just because its a cool prc, although it does grant uncanny dodge and some other nice abilities, with an increased HD aswell.
However Sand Shaper would be awesome for them adding some great buffs & a few direct damage spells at the cost of a single feat and a few skill points.
Whilst someone has mentioned casting in light armour, does that make this class a better gish or at the very least more survivable then your average caster? Remember, thats a mithral breastplate :D
Moreso than a Warmage given that the beguiler has stuff like Mirror Image, Displacement, Greater Mirror Image, and other fun defensive spells. If I remember right they get Mage Armor too ... books at home, have to check this.
Whilst someone has mentioned casting in light armour, does that make this class a better gish or at the very least more survivable then your average caster? Remember, thats a mithral breastplate :D
I don't know... the strenght of the Beguiler is Full arcane spell casting with lots of skill. The advantage is when you dip in this class, you get trapfinding!
Maybe if you gish with Swashbuckler (INT to damage at level 3)....
like Beguiler 6/Swashbuckler3/Eldritch Knight 10/ X 1... i am not sure...
But if you gish for arcane strike, the duskblade is better.
Very nice build, smrtgmp. The dip into Mindbender to delay the 7th lvl advanced learning is brilliant. Kudos.
Gracias. Its about time my penchant for delaying the inevitable proved useful. ;)
I know the goal of illusion casters has been effective shadow evocations for a while now, but I the PHB2 and SC have changed the paradigm. I think as the party trapfinder & skill monkey I don't necessarily have to have the explosive power of a pseudo-evocationist. Honestly the new non-lethal damage spells (whelm, etc) seem just fine as occasional nukes. Failing that extra spell: nuke is a good option. For the most part whether the enemy is knocked out or dead, the encounter is pretty much over. In any event, I think a staff provides all the offensive spell power you might need.
The only problem with the non-lethal spells in the PHB 2 is that they're all mind-affecting, and the beguiler already has plenty of options in that department. And to be honest, I dont care much about the blasting potential of the shadow spells. I prefer them for their combat control capabilities. The SC really broadened evocation's horizons with spells like great thunderclap and sword of deception, and conjuration has gems like freezing fog.
I only wish we had a solid enchantment-based PrC that was worth pursuing past level 1.
ps-why doesnt the beguiler have intimidate as a class skill? Seems somewhat odd in a class that focuses on manipulation.
ps-why doesnt the beguiler have intimidate as a class skill? Seems somewhat odd in a class that focuses on manipulation.
This guy is a trickster and he don't want to have to much attention on him. The Beguiler is at his max where no one know where he is (invisibility,hide) or who he is (bluff,disguise). More intermediate you have (puppet control via enchantment spell) and don't act directly, safer and more in control you are. You don't want to have someone think you are against him, "I am always on your side my friend. It's you who misjuge my act. I did all of this for you!!" You want all person you cought in your web of lie to be able to be cought again.
This seems to be roleplay matter but it' "social optimization" as well.
"Social optimization" is very DM-dependent. So Beguiler is strong with a good DM and a good player to play it (have imagination for your illusion). But if the game go social, Beguiler is the number 1 class.
I enjoy real life politician couldn't have Beguiler level!! ;)
What, and a behind the scenes manipulator wouldnt use intimidate? I dont buy it. The "power behind the throne" types would be well aware of the fact that a well-timed threat can be exceedingly effective. And when it comes down to it, its another way to get people to do what you want, and thats the beguiler's MO.
I understand your point of view but I see the Beguiler as, if possible, "power behind the power behind the power behind the throne". So he let the other do the intimidation for him...
Give up evocation and cry yourself a river.
With the bonus feats you get from incantatrix, you could afford to take extra spell to pick up a shadow spell of 4th level or higher to qualify for shadowcraft mage so that you dont have to go past beguiler 5 if you dont want to.
gnome (if you're using LA buyoff, why not go for shadow crature?)
1) beguiler 1 iron will (1), spell focus (illusion) (f), earth sense (f)
2) beguiler 2
3) beguiler 3 heighten spell (3)
4) beguiler 4
5) beguiler 5 silent spell (b5)
6) mindbender 1 mindsight (6)
7) incantatrix 1 bonus MM feat (i1)
8) incantatrix 2
9) incantatrix 3 extra spell (shadow spell) (9)
10) shadowcraft mage 1
11) shadowcraft mage 2
12) shadowcraft mage 3 earth spell (12)
13) shadowcraft mage 4
14) shadowcraft mage 5
15) incantatrix 4 greater spell focus (illusion) (15), bonus MM feat (i4)
16) incantatrix 5
17) incantatrix 6
18) incantatrix 7 (18), bonus MM feat (i7)
19) incantatrix 8 or shadowcrafter 1
20) incantatrix 9 or shadowcrafter 2
or
1) beguiler 1 spell focus (illusion) (1), iron will (f), earth sense (f)
2) beguiler 2
3) beguiler 3 heighten spell (3)
4) beguiler 4
5) beguiler 5 silent spell (b5)
6) mindbender 1 mindsight (6)
7) beguiler 6
8) beguiler 7
9) shadowcraft mage 1 earth spell (9)
10) shadowcraft mage 2
11) shadowcraft mage 3
12) shadowcraft mage 4 greater spell focus (illusion) (12)
13) shadowcraft mage 5
14) incantatrix 1 bonus MM feat (i1)
15) incantatrix 2 (15)
16) incantatrix 3
17) incantatrix 4 bonus MM feat (i4)
18) incantatrix 5 (18)
19) incantatrix 6
20) incantatrix 7 bonus MM feat (i7)
for the open character level feats, I would suggest things like SF/GSF enchantment, extra spell (persistant image) to take advantage of some tasty goodness in conjunction with shadowcraft mage, and mobile spellcasting. Darkstalker would also be a great choice, as it would enable you to hide from just about anything. Makes you one hell of a scout when paired with mindsight.
I would definately take extend spell as one of the bonus MM feats. Its just too good for this type of caster to pass up.
obviously the later levels could be moved around to suit your tastes.
Main problem with something like this is that you lose out on all the skill points, but even if you get out of beguiler at 5 you'll still have laid a solid foundation of skills.
+1 to the DC of illusion/fear !
Extend on all your enchantment spell!
free shorter Blur when you cats illusion!
You need some ranks in Spellcraft and 2 in Knowledge the plane (not a class skill for you) but for only 2 ranks you can cross class and it will be great to be able to use this skill with an high INT
Damn man, good find! I think I've got a Changeling Beguiler brewing in my head...
Thanks you too, i will add changeling as a good race and recaster as a good prestige class.
Also add more builds.
Keep feeding my with new ideas...thanks!
(this is in reference to cloaked casting level 20)
This is one firmly in the hands of the DM. I'm not even going to try arguing one way or another, but perhaps a seperate thread would be best for this particular can of worms? That way we can focus on the Beguiler's options, and not poor WotC writing/editing.
I JUST LOVE THIS CLASS
Morethare, Gnome Beguiler 20 (28 points buys)
Base stat
STR 6 (-2 Gnome)
DEX 12
CON 16 (+2 Gnome)
INT 23 (+5 with stat increase)
WIS 8
CHA 10
Skill : 10 pts/level, 11 at level 8, 12 at level 16
Maxed skills(23 ranks) : Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Hide,
Move Silently, Sense Motive, Sleight of hand, Tumble(22 ranks)
Other ranks: SpellCraft 9 ranks, Knowledge(the plane) 4 ranks(cross class)
Level-Feat:
1 Spell Focus(illusion)
3 Greater Spell Focus(illusion)
6 Shape Soulmed(illusionnary Veil)
9 Mastery of Dreams
12 Extraordinary Concentration
15 Mobile Spellcasting
18 Shape Soulmed(Kruthik claw)
The highs scores
DC of spells :
spell level
+16 (10+ regular INT)
+ 3 (with headband of Intellect +6)
+ 3 (with Tome of INT +5)
+ 5 for illusion (Feats + Gnome)
+ 2 if cast on opponent denied DEX
(+1 if fear descriptor and not illusion)
Total for illusion: 29 + spell level, no SR if denied DEX
Hide/Move Silently at +28
Minimal Concentration at +26
- can normally always cast defensivly
- need spell level - 1 to maintain concentration on a spell as a move action
- need spell level + 9 to maintain concentration on a spell as a swift action
- need spell level - 1 to cast spell defensivly then move as a standard action
- need spell level - 6 to cast spell then move as a standard action
I will note from playing Warmages and such, that loosing a caster level really hurts big time if your build depends on magic. Level dips into Rogue and whatnot sound fine and dandy until you find yourself two or three levels behind the wizard in picking up spells of a given level. The rule of don’t loose a caster level unless you get something *really* good applies. ;)
Yes but the dip see in the other direction is great! (Changeling Rogue 18/Beguiler 2)
I second the notion that every Beguiler should be picking up the Shadow spells.
edit: After a search of the Keep's Domain pdf, it seems like the Travel Domain seems like it has some great synergy w/ this class using the Arcane Disciple feat: Neutral alignment gets it, you get no reproduced spells, and you have a bunch of spells that you might use just once per day. The Summoner domain gives good summoning (duh). The War domain is pretty good too: Divine Power is always good; could be the basis of an interesting Gish (Arcane Disciple: War, Battle Caster + Mithril Fullplate, the rest is easy). Transformation domain gives Polymorphs, and is fairly powerful from 1st up. Undeath and Undead domains give some answers to the Undead problem.
Shadow domain gives the Shadow spells at the earliest possible level, qualifying one for the Shadowcraft Mage, but one would be limited to 1 casting per spell per day (one could reform the spell away at 11th, picking up the spells via expanded knowledge). I'm against this route, though, as the domain does overlap a lot. Spell domain: The most powerful spells, anyspell, need cleric levels to work, so are almost worthless in most builds.
Healing would be OK if one devoted another feat to Spontaneous Healing; then you could heal Wis mod + 1 spells / day.
Let your puppet fight and do some move only when you are invisible. This way of play is best supported at level 8 with access to Dominate Person and Greater Invisibility.
Base stat
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 23 (+5 with stat increase)
WIS 8
CHA 12
Skill : 10 pts/level, 11 at level 8, 12 at level 16
Maxed skills(23 ranks) : Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Hide,
Move Silently, Sense Motive, Sleight of hand, Tumble
Other ranks: 9 ranks in Knowledge(arcana), 7 new languages (total 11 language+Common)
Level-Feat:
1 Spell Focus(Enchatment)
3 Greater Spell Focus(Enchantment)
6 Fade into Violence
9 Shape Soulmed(Kruthik claw)
12 Extraordinary Concentration
15 Mobile Spellcasting
18 Arcan theisis (Dominate Monster)
The highs scores
DC of spells :
spell level
+16 (10+ regular INT)
+ 3 (with headband of Intellect +6)
+ 3 (with Tome of INT +5)
+ 2 for Enchantment (Feats)
+ 2 if cast on opponent denied DEX
Total for enchantment: 26 + spell level, no SR if denied DEX
So Still+Silent Dominate Monster at DC 35
Hide/Move Silently at +29
Minimal Concentration at +24
- can normally always cast defensivly
- need spell level + 1 to maintain concentration on a spell as a move action
- need spell level + 11 to maintain concentration on a spell as a swift action
- need spell level + 1 to cast spell defensivly then move as a standard action
- need spell level - 4 to cast spell then move as a standard action
CHA skill at +24, +34 for Disguise, +26 for Bluff
Open to critic. Any other suggestions?
- Lots of skills
- Good casting potential
- Trapfinding
- INT for spell, damage and will be good in the arcane focus
- Surprise casting
- Could fit in a high DEX low STR build (Weapon Finesse)
Beguiler 20 // Warlock 10/Mindbender 10
One suggestion (that may be obvious to some): Use a reach weapon combined with the Cloaked Casting abilities; you are engaged in melee, and can be behind the tanks to use the ability. Also, since you aren't likely to hit anything, if you face undead / un-charmable creatures, be in the same position and simply aid another for the fighters: you are much more likely to hit AC 10 than to hit the critters.
Thanks for the tips. Lonspear is a good reach weapon available to pure Beguiler.
Added to the guide and Whisper Gnome as a good race.
Practiced Spellcaster (Shadowcaster) would keep your CL high enough for good staff usage. Perhaps focus on the Shadowcaster's excellent utility mysteries. Flicker is amazing. Since as a Beguiler you're not worried about sneak attack, your not too too far back in power.
Q: can you use Channel Charge [LeoF] to power a staff that has only 5 uses (so 1/10 the cost)?
I'll put in what level it is, whether its a fort or a will save, whether it allows SR, and what I thought of it.
Lvl 1
Rouse
No saving throw, No SR
Everyone wakes up
Whelm
Will, SR
Eh, its okay. It'll be your basic damage source at that level I suppose
Lvl2
Blinding Color Surge
Will, SR
Blinds enemy for one round and makes me invisible to boot? Sign me up!
Stay the hand
Will, SR
This made me laugh, its an immediate action that you do when people are trying to attack you. If they fail, they have to target some other guy, with penalties!
Vertigo
Will, SR
Or as I like to call it, Barney's day out. If they fail the save, -2 on attacks and saves (thats what I call a vicious cycle) and if they try to move, they have to succeed on a balance check or not move, or worse, fall on their face.
Whelming Blast
Will, SR
Slightly better than whelm, its a cone and does about the same damage, actually
lvl3
Crown of Veils
Hr/level boost to disguise and hide, its only a +2 though, eh.
Halt
Will, SR
Its another immediate action! Stop the bad guy in his tracks. That ogre BBEG is going to have to stay in one place instead of putting his mace through your skull.
Inevitable Defeat
None, then will negates, SR
3d6 damage for free, and more if they don't save, every round until they do.
Legion of sentinels
this one needs an errata, you have incorporeal soldiers that can make Aoos but they don't tell you how much damage they deal, huh?
Vertigo Field
Fort, SR
20% miss chance across the board, if you don't save you are Nauseated. Eh, seems to screw with your friends as much as your foes
lvl4
Mirror Image, Greater
OMG! This is an awesome spell, for one, its an immediate action, it lasts for minutes/level and it automatically replenishes your mirror images at 1/round until you get up to 8 even as they are being destroyed! Just awesome.
Phantom Battle
Will, SR
If you fail your save you can't take Aoos and you're considered flanked. Good if you have an army of rogues on your side I guess, eh otherwise.
Whelm, Mass
Will, SR
Hmm, thats slightly better, the damage goes up to 10d6 by lvl 10, and it affects multiple targets.
lvl 5
Etherealness Swift
Will, SR
Hmm, I'm divided on this one. Etherealness is okay, but it only lasts for one round. It is a swift action, but it only works on willing creatures. Can someone propose a use for this?
Friend to Foe
Will, SR
If you're fighting a BBEG with high AC and tonnes of irritating henchmen, this has the possibility of taking the henchies out of the fight for quite a while. Either they won't be able to hit the BBEG, or the BBEG will be confused too and he might cut one of them to ribbons. Generally good for seeing the expression on the DMs face when you make the hobgoblin legions turn on each other.
Incite riot
Will, SR
You know, I think friend to foe is better, this one only lasts a round. But still people might come up with a use for it.
lvl 6
Overwhelm
Will, SR
Save or die (faint) from subdual damage. Neat.
Well thats all she wrote for PhB II spells, I suppose.
prototype00
P.s. While its a given that beguilers should have heighten spell, what happens when they try to heighten an immediate action spell like halt or stay the hand? Does it take a full round action then, like sorcerers and metamagic? If halt could be heightened and used as a swift action, it would be one of the most useful spells in a beguilers arsenal.
P.s. While its a given that beguilers should have heighten spell, what happens when they try to heighten an immediate action spell like halt or stay the hand? Does it take a full round action then, like sorcerers and metamagic? If halt could be heightened and used as a swift action, it would be one of the most useful spells in a beguilers arsenal.
I was wondering this same thing; RAW, I don't think the SRD says anything about this sort of thing.
edit:
Swift Etherealness is just as good as phase door, imo.
For spell Combos, I'm thinking Mind Fog + Inevitable Defeat / Overwhelm could be quite killer.
Extend, although a great feat, is also available as a cheap metamagic rod: I'm against taking it as a feat unless you need it as a prereq in general.
I agree w/ you on Friend to Foe: why the heck wouldn't you just use a heightened confusion instead (it kind of works like a Confusion with Master of Sculpting placed on it, which is sort of good, but it doesn't last long enough)? It does fit in the flavor of the beguiler, though.
edit edit: I see you were talking Incite Riot v. Friend to Foe: I totally agree.
The more i look at this class, the more i see it as near the bard
So which class are the best?
Beguiler's advantages :
- Trapfinding, with INT as first stat also
- INT base casting, wich mean more skill points and better INT base skill check
- More spell known (all the spell list)
- More spell slots
- Acess to level 7,8 and 9 spell, and faster access to high level spell
- Cloak casting and suprise casting class feature
Bard advantages :
- Barding Knowledge (or barding knack)
- Bardic music
- Access to a wider variety of spells, particularly the cure spells. Have to possibility to easily use more type of scroll,wand,...
- Better base attack bonus
- Better Reflex save
- High CHA wich mean only high CHA skill check
SO? What is your verdict?
Hey hey !
I guess it depends on the party and what you want to do. It you want to buff the fighters, heal a bit, help out of combat with skills people don't have , but not necessarily be the most powerful character and there is a rogue in the party, bard is a way to go.
However, if there are no rogues in the party....this is a different story !
For multiclassing, maybe something really cool could be done with a complete psionic class ;) . I just got it so I need to check...but I'm thinking about the lurk , maybe ?
Likewise, although I haven't played the Beguiler up that far, the Mobile Spellcasting, although brilliant in some builds, feels sub-par as well - most of the spells, by the time you can get it, can be cast from way behind the tanks (ie, you won't be needing to dodge around too much).
Removing Expertise / Feint / Mobile Spellcasting could free up 3 more feat slots. Accelerated Metamagic: Heighten seems obvious to me (I don't know if that's a legal way to do it, though, since I don't have Races of the Dragon yet). So for me, the feat selection would look like:
1: Sp Foci Enchantment
3: Gr Sp Foci Enchantment
6: Versatile Spellcaster
9: Chain Spell
12: Accelerated Metamagic: Chain Spell*
15: Mobile Spellcasting
18: Transdimensional Spell??
must become a Dragonborn of Bahamut, or be dragonblooded some other way.
Advanced Learning (taking 1 level of Mindbender at 7th to delay Advanced Learning)
3: Distract Assailant
8: Shadow Conjuration - retrained to Phantasmal Killer at 20th
12: Shadow Evocation - retrained to Greater Heroism at 16th
16: Greater Shadow Evocation
20: Shades
for a Beguiler 19 / Mindbender 1
edit: Re-added Mobile Spellcasting, switched emphasis from heighten to chain, and switched Versatile Spellcaster to Transdimensional Spell
For that first Advanced Learning spell, I'd like to suggest Shock and Awe from the Spell Compendium. With the Beguiler's large array of stealth abilities (including gems like mass invisibility at high levels), it should be fairly easy to get the drop on enemies, and Shock and Awe can ensure that your party acts first in the normal round after the surprise round.
I'm starting to doubt the value of Improved Feint in the build: None of the spells require touch attacks, and with Hide, Move Silent, and Invisibility / Silence all available easily, the Beguiler probably will get at least one Cloaked Casting in per encounter without it, even, and it's usually only +1 DC anyways: I'd rather have the 2 feats devoted to Sp Foci / Gr Sp Foci for a permanent +2.
Likewise, although I haven't played the Beguiler up that far, the Mobile Spellcasting, although brilliant in some builds, feels sub-par as well - most of the spells, by the time you can get it, can be cast from way behind the tanks (ie, you won't be needing to dodge around too much).
Improved Feint is good with a Gish but as you said, not in a pure Begulier build.
Mobile SpellCasting is good be able to Surprise Cast. Remember: you must be in melee. So you could feint as a move action and move-and-cast as a standard action to be in proper position. It is most usefull on monster with blindsight/blindsense (invisibility and Hide don't work). You could use it in other tactic like move-cast-move behind full cover (for not beiing targetable, be able to hide, disguise yourself,...)
Heighten spell is not too good because why instead you don't simply use a spell on the upper level? It's not like your list of spells have different effects from a level to another. It's true for certain spell but with imagination, you could find a use for a spell at the right level.
And yes, the Enchantment focus is important.
You need to have the dragonblood subtype to take Accelerate Metamagic, unfortunately, so that build will only work with certain races. Definetly a good option for those races though. In a LA buyoff game, a draconic gnome going into Shadowcraft Mage with Accelerate Metamagic: Heighten Spell would be nice indeed.
The Dragonblood prereq could also be gained via Dragonborn of Bahamut (RotD just came in the mail today - yay!). As far as I can tell, you wouldn't lose any class levels already gained, so one could just take this before the Accelerated Metamagic feat w/o too much hassle.
Mobile SpellCasting is good be able to Surprise Cast.... Heighten spell is not too good because why instead you don't simply use a spell on the upper level?
Good point about the Mobile Spellcasting; I'll have to work it in somehow. I was thinking about Heighten just for the general utility of it (particularly w/ the Shadow spells I'm planning on getting). Accelerated Chain might be more useful, now that I see your point.
What about Versatile Spellcaster? It looks really, really useful to me.
What about Versatile Spellcaster? It looks really, really useful to me.
Its only good at low level. In general, ...
2 slots level 0 << 1 slot level 1
2 slots level 1 < 2 slot level 2
2 slots level 2 = 1 slot level 3
2 slots level 3 > 1 slot level 4
...
2 slot level 8 >> 1 slot level 9
Maybe:
Pseudodragon
Beguiler 1
32pt-buy
Str 6
Dex 20
Ko 16
Int 16
We 12
Ch 10
Skills: 6+3 (all maxed)
Appraise
Disable Device
Hide
Listen
Move Silently
Open Lock
Search
Spot
Tumble
Feats:
1 Improved Flight
3 Eschew Materials
6 Quick Reconnoiter
9
12
15
Just think of it, a small dragonling that pretend to be the Familiar of one of the other partymembers, that sleeps on a small bag off goldcoins (about 50gp should be enough) and can fly around in the city and open windows in the 3rd floor to get in and take some jewels out...
Its only good at low level. In general, ...
2 slots level 0 << 1 slot level 1
2 slots level 1 < 2 slot level 2
2 slots level 2 = 1 slot level 3
2 slots level 3 > 1 slot level 4
...
2 slot level 8 >> 1 slot level 9
While true "in general" it's frequently untrue in specific situations. If you NEED that one particular 9th level spell but are out of slots of that level then VS is a huge boon.
While true "in general" it's frequently untrue in specific situations. If you NEED that one particular 9th level spell but are out of slots of that level then VS is a huge boon.
Plus, since we're using the higher level spells to generate duplicate effects of lower level ones for the higher DC's (example, using Mass Dominate instead of Dominate simply b/c it's higher level) then I'd think either Heighten or Versatile SC would be necessary, as you get to use whatever the highest available slot you have open to get that crucial spell off. I'm having to play through every level in my build, so I definitely want one of them.
It depend also of the duration (number of spell needed to be cast on 1 days)
--> Short day : VS is bad
--> Average day : VS is good only if you need lots of spells of high level.
--> Long day : VS is bad
ps how exactly does sculpt spell work? can i change my color spray to effect 4 10' cubes? or would the aoe have to be a 10' cube already to get that?
What do you guys think about Sculpt Spell? It seems like it would work well with Heighten Spell, since most of the area effect spells are lower level (glitterdust, color spray, confusion, hypnosis, deeper slumber, etc). If you knew you weren't going to very high level (or if you are allowed to retrain), it could be useful at the early stages. Likewise, if you were going to take the shadow spells as expanded knowledge spells, they could be fun.
ps how exactly does sculpt spell work? can i change my color spray to effect 4 10' cubes? or would the aoe have to be a 10' cube already to get that?
The need for other feats are stronger in this class. It's not like you have key spells they must be shaped.
And the feat Extraordinary Spell Aim (at long term because of the need of a high Spellcraft) let you cats your spells without a level more.
can i change my color spray to effect 4 10' cubes?
Yes. It's a great feat!
You'll need Advanced Learning (Net of Shadows), though, as it's the only real way to pull it off in the prog order I've listed while still maintaining healthy flexability in your higher-level AL choices.
Gnome Beguiler 6/Shadow Adept 1 (PGtFR)/Beguiler 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5 (RoS)/Beguiler 7.
Feats:
1: Shadow Weave Magic (PGtFR)
3: Spell Focus (Illusion)
6: Heighten Spell
9: Mastery of Chaos and Order (PGtE)
12: Mastery of Dreams (PGtE)
15: SF (Enchant)
18: GSF (Enchant)
Basic idea behind it is to amass as high DC's as possible (a lil' luck is involved in this, with MoCaO, which can give up to a +3 to DC's). His best DC mod is: +2 (Surprise casting)+4 (illusion only, Enchant has +3)+3 (MCaO), for a total of +9/+8 max. Average DC mod is 2+4/3+0=+6/+5. Still undeniably buff for a 3.5 DC enhancement. It also uses Heighten and any of the spells listed under SCM to produce high level Conj (C)/Evocation tricks without actually needing access to the Shadow Evo/Conj line, thus saving AL for different spells, increasing your versatility.
Not to mention that since SE and SC are Illusion, they also benefit from ye olde massive DC enhancement to illusion spells. If your GM allows Flaws, throw in Spell Rehersal to pump the DC even more for your Enchantment spells, via recasting them on the poor bastards who fail their saves the first time. The DC will eventually climb to a point they can't work with.
You do lose out on 2 Advanced Learning's, but I do think it's more than made up for by having any Evo or Conj (C) spells spontainiously, and due to the prog in the build, attaining some AL's later on so you can grab juicier spells. And if you can, talk your GM into allowing the Warmage class option in the PHB2 for Beguilers as well, so you can grab Limited Wish to cover any other bases.
That said:
Beguiler 6 *RainbowServant(CD) 10 = no CL dip and spontaneously cast all divine spells, and at 16th lvl you are useful.
*by the text, rainbow servant loses no CL*
Are you calling sneak attack better than spells? Are you crazy?
Don't get me wrong, I know that spellcasting is *the* most powerful feature in the game, and I'm the type of player who will take removal over direct damage any day, -- turning and stacked fear effects are my favorite mechanics, and i'd take plane-shift over flamestrike almost always -- still I don't think the beguiler is the best choice in most parties.
At lower levels he's less utility than a bard, and far worse in combat.
At higher levels he's just a sorceror with an extremely limited spellcasting list.
Still, the class has the advantage of high skill ranks and int as its casting stat -- which translates into LOTS of skills. Because he can search for magic traps, in some parties he can be an effective rogue replacement (but so can a summoner, cleric, hired commoner).
The choice between rogue(/scout/ninja), bard and beguiler is very dependent on the party:
If your party has very strong martial classes (or is weak in casters), beguiler or bard are the best choices.
If your party is weak in martial classes (lots of enablers like monks but no finishers) then I feel beguiler becomes more a liability, and in those cases you (and the group) would benefit more from that SA to bust the grappled/stunned/blinded/flanked foes. <<-- this is what i meant by SA being better.
Still, the beguiler + rainbowservant is a potent combination that could even be fun to RP out :-)
As for his spells and in combat, he can be a huge help. True, he can avoid a lot of combat, but another use is battlefield control and save or dies. At low levels, Color Spray is a pretty good way to take out a lot of creatures. At all levels you can use the image to, say, make a maze and split your opponents apart so your allies can take them on one by one. There are many, many things you can do with the image spells. You are only really limited by your imagination.
Still, this is all mostly theory, but I'm playing a beguiler in a campaign soon, I'll let you all know how it goes if you're interested. This is party that consists almost completely made up of martial classes though, so that'll probably effect how helpful my character is. I do agree that in a magic heavy party the beguiler becomes fairly redundant. But in a magic-light party, he can be very useful.
Beguiler 4 / Divine Bard 4 / Mystic Theurge 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / MT 3-10
It ends up with the following casting:
- Beguiler 6
- Divine Bard 14
- Sublime Chord 10
That's a metric TON of good low level spells to go with the full Sublime Chord progression. It has the usual super poor low level casting of most spontanious MT builds but has skills, bardic music, & trapfinding to balance that out so he can still be quite useful.
Don't get me wrong, I know that spellcasting is *the* most powerful feature in the game, and I'm the type of player who will take removal over direct damage any day, -- turning and stacked fear effects are my favorite mechanics, and i'd take plane-shift over flamestrike almost always -- still I don't think the beguiler is the best choice in most parties.
At lower levels he's less utility than a bard, and far worse in combat.
At higher levels he's just a sorceror with an extremely limited spellcasting list.
Still, the class has the advantage of high skill ranks and int as its casting stat -- which translates into LOTS of skills. Because he can search for magic traps, in some parties he can be an effective rogue replacement (but so can a summoner, cleric, hired commoner).
The choice between rogue(/scout/ninja), bard and beguiler is very dependent on the party:
If your party has very strong martial classes (or is weak in casters), beguiler or bard are the best choices.
If your party is weak in martial classes (lots of enablers like monks but no finishers) then I feel beguiler becomes more a liability, and in those cases you (and the group) would benefit more from that SA to bust the grappled/stunned/blinded/flanked foes. <<-- this is what i meant by SA being better.
Still, the beguiler + rainbowservant is a potent combination that could even be fun to RP out :-)
Yes, the Beguiler are not the guys who shines in combat. He shines in social situations, more than a bard.
If your game session is straigh combat+combat+ some story and any player could do it good via only role play+ your DM don't ajust social situation/recognition, Beguiler is the worst class of all.
But if your in a real Epic story where combat and social are played according to stats, and your an imaginative player, this is really the best class.
Know the strenghs of the Beguiler and play in accor with it.
--> Full casting class and lots of skills TOGHETER. This mean a lot. Disguise + disguise self, Hide + Move Silently + invisibility, ...
--> This guy can go alone spying . He can recast spell on himself. He can spy all the time. This is the best class for doing lot of things without being noticed.
--> In what he is good, he has versatility . You don't have to carefully plan the number of each spell you need for a day as a wizard. You could always cast the good Illusion/Enchantment/Dispel spell at the right level. Your spell list as a lot more spells than the sorcerer spell so even if you have not a lot of different ways, you have "fine tuning" capacity in your way. This include Still and Silent spell feats.
--> You are the best spellcating class for casting spells with saving throws because of your class feature and because your spells are mostly in the same school, so Spell focus and other ways to increase DC apply to a greater % of your spells.
And by the way, here's my tactic and tips for playing a Beguiler in Combat.
RULE #1 : Don't be a target
The best way to avoid being targeted is not not being one. Hide, disguise or use your illusion spells in this way.
RULE #2 : Let the other fight.
"Other" mean the members of your party, but also your dominated/charmed person.
RULE #3 : Know before you go.
You have a lots of divination spells, so use it! It will help you apply RULE #1+4 and don't be surprised. Combine with recognition skills (spot,listen,search,sense motive) you should be the one who create the surprise, not the one he is.
RULE #4 : Domine and deceive!
This is your speciality so use it! Creature without a good will save are not only worthless against you, they are a gift you can use! Against spellcaster, dispeling without beeing noticed is your way. Against warrior type classes with high will save, try to use illusion without intercation. These classes are usully not optimed in combat so the rest of your party could take care of it with your illusion buff spells. Against creature with blindsense/sight and immunity so mind affecting ability, just play smart ; these creature don't usually have a high INT.
The key of well playing a class in not to focus on what you have not, but to focus on what you have.
It depend on the kind of Beguiler you play also.
The "not known Beguiler"
1 - Disguise
2 - Hide
3 - Move Silently
4 - Bluff
5 - Diplomacy
6 - Concentration
7 - Sense Motive
8 - Spot
9 - Search
Post your TOP 9!!
1 - Hide
2 - Move silently
3 - Spot
4 - Listen
5 - Search
6 - Sense Motive
7 - EDIT : instead Concentration
8 - Disable Device
9 - Open Lock
10 - Tumble (for passing under ennemi while scouting)
1 - Bluff
2 - Diplomacy
3 - Sense Motive
4 - Disguise
5 - Concentration (for Extraordinary concentration)
6 - Sleight of hand
7 - Forgery
8 - Gather information
9 - Knowledge(local)
And I think every list should have Spellcraft, but that's my personal opinion.
The Spellcaster Scout lacks Concentration...
Thanks. You are right. It's now edited.
This could actually be really fun to play since whole group is rollin' sneak checks instead of attacks together and no one gets left out / bored if rogue goes into sneak mode.
And
Re: skills; Why no UMD lovin?
Ya, JamesWM, that's the type of situation i imagined beguilers getting into with many groups unless the group planned out their play-style together accordingly -- maybe sneaky-fighter-ninja-rogues for all.
This could actually be really fun to play since whole group is rollin' sneak checks instead of attacks together and no one gets left out / bored if rogue goes into sneak mode.
And
Re: skills; Why no UMD lovin?
There a lot of solutions to this :
--> Be unknow to the group, contact/play with them in disguise and via puppet (charm/dominated)
--> To be continued..
There a lot of solutions to this :
--> Be unknow to the group, contact/play with them in disguise and via puppet (charm/dominated)
not that this isn't a bad idea, but charm lasts, what, maybe an hour at first level? and you can do it maybe 5 times per day if you went with the grey elf? and 20-25% of the time it won't work? and you got to find a full strength melee type when you want to do it? and the creature knows what you are doing afterwards? like i said, starting at low-level sucks. it is nice being able to spontaneously cast everything on your spell list, but it doesn't do squat against too many creatures. UMD is great, but it isn't good enough that i wouldn't rather be playing a straight rogue. i enjoy rogues and wizards the most, and thought the beguiler would be a good, enjoyable mix, but i find it subpar to either.
Beguilers get alot of spells that other spontaneous casters don't bother with because they become obsolete later on and you only get so many exchanges, especially as a bard. And really, they get alot of spells period. What spontaneous caster's going to pick up situation specific spells that can a lifesaver in the right circumstance but rarely if ever used otherwise.
Advanced Learning Spells I like:
3rd = Instant Diversion {RotDragon} - Thematically & mechanically strong.
7th = Shadow Spray {SpComp} - 2nd level, but still a strong spell.
--> at low level, don't be afraid to use weapons; you got a nice options for a spellcaster class. Use your reach weapon and shortbow. Use hypnotism and sleep as attack spells. As said,make good use of image spells.
--> take Power Word Pain at level 3, a great Enchantment damage spell
In addition, those 2 levels give you -
1) compatible skill-set synergies
2) a nice boost to REFL and WILL saves
3) Bard Lore
4) 2 Bard music uses (whoopee!)
5) +1 BAB and +1 CL
One problem might be the Perform skill pre-req. Which is doable via the UA feat Skill Knowledge: Perform or a dip into something easy like Harper Mage.
Otherwise, the payoff for that 1 CL hit looks pretty strong. Especially with all the spells you get!
Don't go out of your way to feint. One option for a melee weapon to feint with is the whip. Not being proficient with it doesn't really matter, the whip's a really poor weapon anyways. However it has a property that a beguiler would be interested in, its a 15' reach melee weapon. If you never plan on making an attack roll with the whip, the -4 penalty for attacking with it will never come into play.
I'm not a fan of taking a hit to caster level, but 2 levels of UA's Prestige Bard in a Beguiler build does grant you a whole truckload of additional spells added to your spell list. At a least a few dozen extra spells when combing through all your WotC spellbooks (and D20 books if you use those).
In addition, those 2 levels give you -
1) compatible skill-set synergies
2) a nice boost to REFL and WILL saves
3) Bard Lore
4) 2 Bard music uses (whoopee!)
5) +1 BAB and +1 CL
One problem might be the Perform skill pre-req. Which is doable via the UA feat Skill Knowledge: Perform or a dip into something easy like Harper Mage.
Otherwise, the payoff for that 1 CL hit looks pretty strong. Especially with all the spells you get!
You don't get the bard spells list when you gain Prestige Bard level... It doesn't work .
sorry...we're a good idea
You don't get the bard spells list when you gain Prestige Bard level... It doesn't work .
sorry...we're a good idea
According to the UA rules for Prestige Bard you do. Re-read the preface section.
Besides, I don't consider Combat Expertise and Improved Feint (usually combined with Mobile Spellcasting) as good feat options, at low levels overall. As a beguiler, you don't want to melee so much. In addition, until 14th level, it only provides you with a +1 DC increase. If you take Spell Focus (enchantment) and Spell Focus (illusion) instead, you can do this all the time.
However, at higher levels it's a better option, when you already completed the Spell Focus-Greater Spell Focus chain (you want to do this as 95% or your spells depend on saving throws).
Nobody mentioned Spectral Skirmisher neither.
As for race, gnomes are in 1st place way further. Here's my build:
The Master of Minds and Souls
Gnome Beguiler20
Stats order: Int, Dex, Con, Cha, Wis, Str
1. Improved Initiative
3. Spell Focus (Enchantment)
6. Spell Focus (Illusion)
9. Spectral Skirmisher
12. Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
15. Greater Spell Focus (Illusion)
18. Arcane Thesis (any you like)
As for advanced learning, Distract Assailant is mandatory.
SHADOWS SPELLS ARE MANDATORY: if you combine Spell Focus+Greater Spell Focus+Gnome+Cloaked Casting with any shadow, it will be destroying.
BTW, where is the Extraordinary Concentration feat and what is it for?
According to the UA rules for Prestige Bard you do. Re-read the preface section.
I don't see where it says that. I don't see any reference to the normal bard's spell list.
BTW, where is the Extraordinary Concentration feat and what is it for?
Complete adventurer. For spells where the duration is based on the wizard using a standard action to maintain the spell, the feat lets you do it as a move action or even a swift action, but you need to roll a very high concentration check. It also specifically says even with the feat, you can't 'maintain' more than one of these types of spells just in case you're getting some ideas with that regard.
Quote: Originally Posted by Book
According to the UA rules for Prestige Bard you do. Re-read the preface section.
-----
I don't see where it says that. I don't see any reference to the normal bard's spell list.
I think I see the reference. Looking at the text all it says that the they have "a greater range of spells avialable." However the actual text in the class description states "gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class."
In the case of the Beguiler, this simply increases your spells per day advancement. HOWEVER... the boon here is the following section of the same entry which BOOK didnt list:
"A prestige bard casts arcane spells from the schools of divination, enchantment and illusion at +2 caster level. She casts arcane spells from the schools of evocation and necromancy at a -2 caster level."
I think this Does make the 2 level dip a worthwhile option in my opinion, since this is a boon along with all the other goodness gained (most especially the boost in saves and fascinate).
That "greater range of spells" quote by Khaalis is case in point. Although worded pretty crappy IMHO. That "greater range of spells" has to come from somewhere after all - and logically, that should be from the unique bard spells that Andy Collins' editor didn't word properly. :P
Nymph's Kiss: More skills, +2 to all Cha-based Checks, +2 saves vs. ebchant. (or so)
Sacred Vow: +2 Diplomacy
Vow of Nonviolence: +4 DC for Enchantment & Illusion and Spells that dont hurt People !!!!, Drawback: you can't hurt helpless foe's... but a good Beguiler does'nt have to, right ?
As a result, I like Marcus' suggestion about Nymph's Kiss - such a versatile feat.
For example, by the time my character switches over to IotSV, he's got maxed ranks in Hide, Move Silently, Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana), and Concentration. Everything else is pretty much negotiable, as other skills are not the focus of the build. If I hadn't wanted to do the Shadowcraft Mage thing, Able Learner would would have rendered the later BSP numbers meaningless.
Meh, base skill points aren't as useful past level 13 as high powered class features, especially for an Int based caster. You can do just fine with 2 BSP, especially if you have a good skill list.
For example, by the time my character switches over to IotSV, he's got maxed ranks in Hide, Move Silently, Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana), and Concentration. Everything else is pretty much negotiable, as other skills are not the focus of the build. If I hadn't wanted to do the Shadowcraft Mage thing, Able Learner would would have rendered the later BSP numbers meaningless.
As the primary arcanist in a party, base skills are *EXTREMELY IMPORTANT*.
You highly underestimate the importance of Knowledge skills. Which in highly optimized gameplay, is crucial for identifying the details and minutae of enemy combatants. If you don't know what they are and you can't figure out their weaknesses and attributes, you often waste spells on said creatures.
Ergo, knowledge skills not only give you tons of pertinent metagame information that eases the paths and decisions of your game, they also SAVE YOU SPELL SLOTS ... especially when casting spells blindly on creatures that are unknown, templated, or in unfamiliar guises.
Final Analysis: DO NOT UNDERSTIMATE KNOWLEDGE SKILLS. Or for that matter, do not underestimate having the full breadth of critical skills covered by you and your party.
Has anyone ever thought about a Beguiler with the following feats:
Nymph's Kiss: More skills, +2 to all Cha-based Checks, +2 saves vs. ebchant. (or so)
Sacred Vow: +2 Diplomacy
Vow of Nonviolence: +4 DC for Enchantment & Illusion and Spells that dont hurt People !!!!, Drawback: you can't hurt helpless foe's... but a good Beguiler does'nt have to, right ?
Wow!! added to the handbook
As the primary arcanist in a party, base skills are *EXTREMELY IMPORTANT*.
Then isn't it wonderful how an Int based caster has all these extra skill points to throw around? 2 + 5 = 7 (at least) skill points per level means four maxed skills in addition to the arcanist trio (Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana), Concentration). I'd say dungeoneering, nature, religion, and the planes are the big ones.
Then isn't it wonderful how an Int based caster has all these extra skill points to throw around? 2 + 5 = 7 (at least) skill points per level means four maxed skills in addition to the arcanist trio (Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana), Concentration). I'd say dungeoneering, nature, religion, and the planes are the big ones.
Those aren't neccessarily the big ones. The "big ones" are the ones not covered by the rest of your party.
And a straight Beguiler or a Beguiler X/PrC X (where PrC has 4 skills/level) can cover a helluva lot more skills. Which on a Beguiler-level-heavy build, means you have one of the best skill lists around for fleshing out all the critical skills to your party that the rest of them cannot cover.
Combined with Extra Spell, you could probably fill many of the holes that pop up in your spell list.
You can easily make the requirements. and the first 4 levels are full spellcasting (the 5th is probably worth taking for an enchanter).
Mindbender 1 + Mindsight (LoM) allows you to target any sentient creatures within 100 feet and you know their “type.”
Fatespinner is a good PrC to take.
You can easily make the requirements. and the first 4 levels are full spellcasting (the 5th is probably worth taking for an enchanter).
Mindbender 1 + Mindsight (LoM) allows you to target any sentient creatures within 100 feet and you know their “type.”
Wow great ideas. Lately added to the handbook.
ie, at 6th level, you have access to 3rd level spells. If you advanced as a Beguiler to 7th, you'd have to take a 3rd level spell for Expanded Knowledge. If you instead took a level of Mindbender (or any PrC), then took a level of Beguiler afterwards, then you'd get access to 4th level spells with Expanded Knowledge. Otherwise you'd have to wait until 11th level to get access to 4th level spells (or 5th level, too).
Why is this so important? Shadow Conjuration is a 4th level spell, and can cover your biggest weakness: no direct damage spells, and can be obtained this way at 8th level.
Others have put this into their builds, I just thought I'd formalize it.
Also, you don't have Extraordinary Concentration listed as an acceptable feat. It's really good with the Image spells. Even though the DC's are really high, it still is doable to hit them in 20 levels.
Extraordinary Concentration is already in the handbook.
Etherealness Swift
Will, SR
Hmm, I'm divided on this one. Etherealness is okay, but it only lasts for one round. It is a swift action, but it only works on willing creatures. Can someone propose a use for this?
Ok, here you go:
Charm/dominate a mook in the dungeon. Pump him for info about the BBEG's location.
Precast Message (0 level spell), on the party.
Cast Clairvoyance/clairaudiance to see into the room.
Cast Greater Invisibility onto yourself.
Cast Swift Etherealness to walk through the walls/doors into the BBEG's lair.
Dominate the BBEG
Have him command the mooks to configure themselves in a tactically vulnerable position.
Whisper a message to the party that it is time to attack. They come in and kill away.
Alternate use:
Approach the dungeon. Use Swift Etherialness to gain entry while invisilble. Use Change Self to make yourself look like a mook in the enemy camp. Inform the party that it is time to attack (as above). As the party comes in, hit them from the rear with mind altering effects to sow confusion and desention in their ranks.
Alternate use:
Use Swift Etherialness while invisible to enter the enemy's barraks. On the next round, cast confusion, then Swift Etherialness as a swift action in the same round, and walk out through a wall, while all hell breaks loose. Have the party wait two rounds, and then come in swinging.
The tactical use for this classis not to provide fire support to the party. It's to set the enemy up so the rest of the party can knock them down. One of the best roles that the Beguiler can use to this end is that of infiltrator
The Beguiler's spell list is custome designed for this role:
Change self
Misdirection
Glibness
Detect Thoughts
Clarivoyance/audiance
Etherialness (swift, jaunt etc.)
Shadow walk
Seeming
Still and Silent spell feats also make the beguiler just sing in this role, because he can just stand around and make magic happen, without having to worry about blowing his cover.
It's just sick really.
I was *just* in a campaign where that would've been perfect. We were the agents of the world's best sky-pirate. One of our most common tactics was infiltration, distractions, and misdirection (Changeling roguebuckler, bard with profession(lawyer) ), followed by sudden strikes and intimidation.
A beguiler would've been *perfect*, even if it *would* have left us largely without melee (blastificer who was replaced by a soulbow eventually, roguebuckler, bard, and me)... alas, I was a chain-wielding attack-of-opportunity-based tripper. I loved the hell out of the character--Chaotic Bastard alignment plus low CHA is a hilarious combo--but Beguiler would've been awesome.
And no one mentioned shadow weave magic? How about 1 lv in shadow adept? :P
Tactics and skill choices
Have a reach weapon
Your surprise casting casting work only in melee. So be in melee at 5 and 10 feet. You could use a longspear (yes its a simple weapons!!) and always be in melee (you always are in melee at 5ft because of your "unarmed strike" is always an option, even with a weapon in hand). It let you also do attacks of opportunity on oppponents moving near you.
Actually you do not threaten with unarmed strike unless you have improved unarmed strike feat and a level in monk. With improved unarmed strike you are still considered unarmed because your holding a two handed weapon and dont have a hand free to utilise unarmed strike, the monk level allows attacking with your hands full however as you attack with feet, hands, elbows, head, etc. interchangably.
If you wish to try this tactic you are probably better off purchasing exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain) instead of improved unarmed strike, this then opens up options like tripping and such which would help protect you in combat.
With improved unarmed strike you are still considered unarmed because your holding a two handed weapon and dont have a hand free to utilise unarmed strike, the monk level allows attacking with your hands full however as you attack with feet, hands, elbows, head, etc. interchangably.
Actually, ANY unarmed strike can utilize punches, kicks, or head-butts, so as long as you have Improved Unarmed Strike, you'll always be considered armed in melee.
But you only need to be in melee, not to threat for the surprise casting.
And the best weapon for this trick is the whip just for being in melee from 0 to 15 feet (even if your don't have proficiency). But if you want to be able to deliver some damage or flank with another player, longspear is good. Spiked chain is good to for threating at 0 to 10 ft without the proficiency. So each of these weapons have their strengh and weakness for this combo.
Treathing rage Proficiency Reach (melee,able to suprise cast)
Spiked chain 0 to 10 ft No 0 to 10 ft
Longspear 5 to 10 ft Yes 0 to 10 ft (0 to 5 ft unarmed)
Whip None No 0 to 15 ft
Thanks for the precision about reach weapon and unarmed strike.
But you only need to be in melee, not to threat for the surprise casting.
And the best weapon for this trick is the whip just for being in melee from 0 to 15 feet (even if your don't have proficiency). But if you want to be able to deliver some damage or flank with another player, longspear is good. Spiked chain is good to for threating at 0 to 10 ft without the proficiency. So each of these weapons have their strengh and weakness for this combo.
Treathing rage Proficiency Reach (melee,able to suprise cast)
Spiked chain 0 to 10 ft No 0 to 10 ft
Longspear 5 to 10 ft Yes 0 to 10 ft (0 to 5 ft unarmed)
Whip None No 0 to 15 ft
hmmm... i feel custom weapon cheese coming on... Awl Pike (exotic two-handed weapon, 20' reach, doesn't threaten any square but the last one).
Instead of talking about capitalizing on one minor capability of the class or another, I think it would be more usefull to talk about the ROLES that the beguiler can play in the party, and to talk about how to focus on each given role.
My own analysis of the class indicates the following roles basic to the class:
Trap monkey: This is the most straightforward role that the class can play. It also synergizes well with scout/spy. Basically all you need are search and disable device skills, and you can pretty much fill the same role as the rogue for the party. Of course you have no sneak attack and your BAB sucks, so this is where the similarity ends. I would consider this role as a nice add-on for your character if the party has no true rogue. On the other hand if you want to do the scout/spy thing alot, then these skills can save your life when you are out ahead of the party.
Scout/Spy: The great thing about the beguiler in this role is that you come fully equiped for it, RIGHT out of the box. You get all the stealth skills, plus invisibility, trapfinding and the ability to walk through walls. Also, you can maintain contact with your party with the message spell at lower levels, and with Rary's Telepathic Bond later on. By 10th level, you can pretty much walk right through a dungeon. It's really too bad that the class doesn't get the Arcane Eye spell, but you do get to scan for thinking minds (with detect thoughts), use Clairvoyance/clairaudience etc, so you have a GREAT array of capabilities there.
Inflitrator: To me, this is the best part of the class. Once you scout ahead of the party, you can join the bad guy's and set them up for your party to kill. Yes, you are a lier who uses lies to help other people kill people. Definately not a role for the squeemish. On top of all that, your ability to cast still and silent spells lets you cast magical effects (see battlefield controller below) without blowing your cover.
Battlefield Controller: Face it, you can't really hurt anyone now can you? Even your most offensive spells only do subdual damage (not that I'm knocking subdual damage mind you). What you do excell at is keeping the bad guy's on their toes and making it very hard for them to mobilize an effective attack against your party. An illusionary wizard casting an illusionary wall of fire here, a confusion spell there, and the fighter in the party will be eating out of your hand, while the clerics wonder why they even NEED to spontaneously cast cure spells at all. You are SO good at softening up any living adversary that your heavy hitters will just blow through anything you hit them with. Heck you can even disguise yourself as a bad guy, cast a confusion on them, and use that as cover to attack them yourself!
Party Face: Another simple role for your character, needing only bluff and diplomacy to pull off. Gather info is also nice, but not vital. Of course these skills help you enormously with infiltration as well. Also, Diplomacy helps with your pupet master role.
Puppet Master: The obvious spell here is Dominate Person. Dominate monster is great, but it comes so late in the build. Dominate Person does have some problems however. First it only works on people. Second you can counter it with a protection from "alignment" spell, and these can fly around quite a bit at higher levels (heck your party cleric may accidentally include the puppet in this spell). There is a way around both of these problems, altough it has own limits: Diplomacy + Charm Monster. Charm monster lasts for days, and it sets the creature's attitude to friendly. From here it is only a DC 20 Diplomacy check to advance this to helpful. Your DM will determine how "helpful" a creature will be, although fighting for you is not a huge stretch for most DM's IME. Otherwise a DC 60 will get you a fanatical follower, who will not only fight for you but will willingly die for you as well.
Now since the Shadowcraft Mage PrC has great synergy with this class, you can also add:
Spontaneous Spell Cannon: This is a nice role for a high level beguiler. The reason for this is simple: By the time you get your character level to the mid teens, you have brought your skills up to the point that you always succeed at just about everything except the occasional opposed roll. You also have already gotten access to most of the best iconic spells of the class. Let's face it, Mass charm monster is not a whole lot more interesting than a charm monster, and a Powerword Stun is not a whole lot more interesting than a hold monster. Sure they work better, but are they really more FUN?
The shadowcraft mage PrC is a great solution, because it suddenly opens up all kinds of options and tricks that you can use to broaden your narrow focus. It is possible to get into this PrC as early as level 7 (with the Earth Spell feat), but personally, I am going to take it at 11th. This gives me Still Spell early, and it also causes the cool stuff to kick in AFTER I have mastered the iconic aspects of the class. I know, this is not optimized for power, but it IS optimized for fun, and if you want raw power, don't play this class in the first place. A sorcerer/shadowcraft mage gets much better casting versitility out of this PrC. If you all you want to play is a spell cannon, then play a spell cannon.
The biggest limit on this PrC is the gnome requirement. This requirement is pretty arbitrarty (for flavor, not balance), and the "Adaptation" part of the PrC suggests that membership in a Cabal is good enough to qualify one for the PrC, so talk with your DM if you don't want to play a gnome.
So that's my 2 cp, I would like to ask posters to put some ideas into this thread on how to focus on these roles.
What if you did a campaign that involved practically no combat but instead had battles of words in court? Their ability to use powerful enchantment and charisma skills would be useful to any noble. Imagine controlling a king! It might be difficult because he probably has tons of protection but with the cloaked casting ability and the right spells (you'd probably have to create some but with know. arcana and spellcraft you might just pull it of) might make it possible. It's certainly a break from regular dnd but a diplomacy campaign might be fun; especially if you like the idea of getting powerful by having followers and a silver tongue.
personally, in your average adventuring party I don't think that a beguiler would be very satisfying to play unless your DM throws in weird obstacles. I think that if I was going to play a beguiler I would make sure to use my feats to learn some decent evocation spells. However, that's not my point.
I think that a big reason why beguilers have trapfinding is so that they have something to do during a dungeon crawl.
What if you did a campaign that involved practically no combat but instead had battles of words in court? Their ability to use powerful enchantment and charisma skills would be useful to any noble. Imagine controlling a king! It might be difficult because he probably has tons of protection but with the cloaked casting ability and the right spells (you'd probably have to create some but with know. arcana and spellcraft you might just pull it of) might make it possible. It's certainly a break from regular dnd but a diplomacy campaign might be fun; especially if you like the idea of getting powerful by having followers and a silver tongue.
At it's heart, D&D is a combat game. Personally I have never found roleplaying-only games to be very satisfying. To each his own though.
The beguiler is a STRATEGIC class. He is all about turning the DM's critters against him. I mean, look at the main things a Beguiler can do: Sneek around, blend in with the bad guys, communicate info to the party, & mind controll monsters to make them fight for you. Those are all plotline busting tricks. The tactical capabilities of the beguiler are limited to battlefield controll. I mean, he has NO offensive capabilities that actually damage foes. What he can do is create illusions to make the bad guy's waste time, incapacitate and harrass foes, and so on. This sort of thing is not satisfying to all players, because by definition, someone ELSE gets the glory. All you did was help. All you EVER do is help, but BOY do you HELP!
You need Mage Hand and it's not on the class' spell list...
Now, I don't think most DM's would really mind and just give the spell to you even if at some minor cost. Or hell, with a Hand of the Mage item or even one of those simple feats from Complete Arcane... But my DM won't allow it anyway because he thinks it is too good a combination to pull off. His line of thinking is "Wizards probably saw it coming and so didn't give it to the Beguiler. They must've thought the combo was too powerful."
Just thought I'd say it.
I'm still making a Changeling Beguiler though :D And, true to team spirit, I will undermine my own party purposefully to further my own selfish goals :D! Problem is I really, really don't want my party to know but I do want to communicate with them when I'm not in my regular guise as a lovely Elven Bard *by sheer coincidence I already said my next character was going to be a Bard so they won't even suspect it :D* *Yes, I have extremely low moral standards and thus am not above using this as a highly usefull coïncidental lie but it is for people like me that this class is made!!!*...
*sigh* My DM probably needs to play me too
And I'm so much better then him in this kind of a situation *aka elaborate scheming*I just need to perfect my character a bit... Any help would be nice. It's just the feats and the spells I can choose wich I really, really still need to perfect. It looks a bit like this:
Beguiler 6/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 7-16/Recaster 4
I know I want my 6th level feat to be Mindsight and I want my first Expanded Knowledge Spell to be Limited Wish but that's kind of where it ends. There were so many suggestions here that I'm not so sure what I want anymore... I want it all damn it! *Yes, I'm greedy too :D*
Ok, so I've been reading this thread and, though it hasn't been spoken about in a while, I feel the need to speak up! What's the problem? The Arcane Trickster! It has this tiny, teensy little prerequisite the Beguiler can't overcome without some help/whistling innocently...
You need Mage Hand and it's not on the class' spell list...
...yeah, and the 2d6 sneak attack you can't get without taking 3 rogue levels and therefore losing 9th level spells.
Although I guess you could go Rogue 1/Assassin1 and get 2d6 in 2 levels, and still get 9th level spells. You don't have damage-dealing spells, though, which the AT specializes in sneak attacking with...
...yeah, and the 2d6 sneak attack you can't get without taking 3 rogue levels and therefore losing 9th level spells.
Although I guess you could go Rogue 1/Assassin1 and get 2d6 in 2 levels, and still get 9th level spells. You don't have damage-dealing spells, though, which the AT specializes in sneak attacking with...
Well you could with some classes and feats out there granting your character additional spells. I've seen the Sandshaper get mentioned here as did Arcane Discipel. Plus UMD is on it's class list.
And in my games we often do not have enough players too fill each niche and the AT is really just used to have both a rogue and a caster and not really as a combination of both. Sad really, but it's the truth *and it still isn't that bad!*
Assassin actually is a nice class to get the extra SA from *plus I like DA even if you're not that likely to use it very well* I might even consider taking this one level of Assassin for that just for coolpoints, thinking about it. Though it doesn't really benefit my character much at all...
That's why any Arcane Trickster build, if for some perverse reason someone decided to make one, would incorporate the Spell Hand feat.
Ah, that's the feat I meant from Complete Arcane... But it's rather... Well... It's crap
! And the Beguiler isn't exactly loaded on feats, just like the Rogue and AT are... It is a waste really... Especialy since you can't really use the Ranged Legerdemain class feature often *though I must admit I've never even heard of anyone using it at all :embarrass*
I mean, he has NO offensive capabilities that actually damage foes.
I do respect alot of the work you do psifon, but please read the beguiler 's spell list more carefully. Whelm, Mass Whelm, Inevitable Defeat and Whelming Blast are several direct damage spells. Even though they are only non-lethal (therefore not the best damaging spells in the game), they can still be considered direct damage.
I do respect alot of the work you do psifon, but please read the beguiler 's spell list more carefully. Whelm, Mass Whelm, Inevitable Defeat and Whelming Blast are several direct damage spells. Even though they are only non-lethal (therefore not the best damaging spells in the game), they can still be considered direct damage.
With the exception of “Inevitable Defeat” none of those spells qualify for Sneak Attack (ID may not either, and it is “touch” not “ranged touch”).
Sometimes when people criticize they might be right.
With the exception of “Inevitable Defeat” none of those spells qualify for Sneak Attack (ID may not either, and it is “touch” not “ranged touch”).
Sometimes when people criticize they might be right.
When the range is touch a touch attack must be rolled, unless the victim is willing. One is considered armed while making a touch attack, so I do not see why sneak attack would not function with inevitable defeat. The sneak attack damage would not repeat every round of course, and it would be non-lethal. It might be worth it to use the extra spell feat to grab orb of fire or a similarly potent damage spell.
The advanced learning class feature (which is gained every 4 levels beginning at 3rd level) could be used to pick up shadow evocation spells, which can emulate a number of damaging effects. When properly optimized (see the killer gnome build by snow savant), these spells can yield just as much damage (if not more) than any other direct damage spell.
In short, getting direct damage out of a beguiler is possible, but requires a lot more leg-work than simply using a wizard. So, I think the criticism was written perhaps too hastily.
The two main questions are:
a) Full progrssion as the written, or staggered as the table?
b) When you gain access to the domains, and later 'Clerical Access', do you get the whole list automatically to be cast spontaniously, or do you have to go find scrolls?
My answer to A is... it doesnt really matter that much. Its awesome either way. I see the beguiler as a good versitle class. I know i know, no ninth level spells and that does hurt. on the other hand, this is a MUCH more survivable Thurge build. Imagine throwing around cleric spells spontaniously. Heck with spontanious cure, when do you actually have Invis Purge when you need it?! Plus, you have some handy BOOM spells to chuck around if need be. And you dont really need UMD anymore i wouldnt think.
I see this beguiler a more flashy and chrasmatic type. Not your skulker. A leader in his comunity and religion, using his spells to maintain order and stability. And hey, all those 'color' spells on the beguiler list fit right in!
As for B... i know that there we no 'arcane gets a whole mess of spells automatically at level, and can cast spontaniously' when the CD book came out, but i honestly cant see the Beguiler(or warmage for that matter, though thats a different thread) getting it any other way. After all a beguiler doesnt really do the 'learn spell from scroll' thing. Nor does it choose spells on gaining level, it just gets the chunk. Not very Arcane like, now that i think of it, but there it is.
I can think of 2 similar builds, one more thematic than optimized.
Be10/RS10- You start off with Be6, which gives you Suprise Casting. End off with still spell.
This either gives you a full chart, or up to eighth level spells. On the other hand, detecting evil, chaos and thoughts at will puts that paladin to shame. What beguiler couldnt use those to his advantage?
Be7/RS10/Mindbender1/Chameleon2- This still gets 9th level spells if you think RS gives full progression, else your limited to 6thlevel spells. But in exchange, you are pretty much anything arent you? While you wont really need Arcane or Divine focus unless you just cant get enough yummy spells, and you can already trapfind, You can track though the jungles you are in to be a RS with the Wild Focus. ANd combat focus... well, everyone knows that a wizard justs yearns to bash something once in awhile. Also, you get the allmighty Floaty Feat. You can do the Mindsight trick, which although is covered somewhat with the Detect Thoughts at will, still has enough oomph to make it worthwhile i think. Telepathy is nothing to sneeze at either. I admit this is more thematic, but i think its pretty cool. Spontaniously casting 6th level cleric or beguiler spells is pretty cool, as is auto detecting practically anyhting. I can look at you and know what you are, what you are thinking, and if you are evil/chaotic!
I could see not doing the the Chameleon, and dipping for the Mindbender for the mindsight trick only. I ithink i'd still go for the able learner feat whatever the build.
So what do you all think? Yay or Nay for Rainbow Servant Beguiler?
But looking over the Beguiler, which I really think WoTC went above and beyond creating, I'm wondering how useful it would be to bother with PrC's instead of just sticking to Beguiler...
You get tons of skill points, great versatility, and spell casting (I think the charm/dominate spells alone could make you more than efficient in combat) at the cost of straight damage spells and combat abilities... Plus you get all the nifty rogue skills... I think the class was really made to stand on it's own that way.
Are there benefits I'm missing to say adding levels of the classes I've been seeing in the builds over sticking to the base class stright through? Are there dips that continue to increase the spell casting capabilities of the class that can be taken say at 6th or 8th level where you've already managed to build up your skills so that you can afford to take those PrC's where you're rogueish skills would stop advancing?
Does that even make sense or am I just babbling incoherently lol.
Case in point, Gnome Beguiler vrs a Gnome Beguiler/Mindbender/Shadowcraft Mage/etc. Which comes out on top and why?
I'm mostly asking because I'm thinking of making a skill monkey character for a game, and the more I think of it, Gnome + Beguiler (with or without PrC dips) just sounds fun lol.
Case in point, Gnome Beguiler vrs a Gnome Beguiler/Mindbender/Shadowcraft Mage/etc. Which comes out on top and why?
I certainly hope that Beguiler isn't uberrer than killer gnome out of the box... What next, the Kobold-only base class, "Pun-punite"?
...Besides quipping, I can't help. Don't have PHBII
Once monsters start being able to generate true seeing effects, illusions lose most of their punch as well, (and thats taking into consideration that the average beguiler even spends its advanced learning slots on shadow conjuration and shadow evocation type spells)
Thus at higher levels of play, on average, a beguiler tends to run into a glass ceiling of sorts, not having access to as many direct damage spells as say a wizard, or a sorcerer, and not being able to affect enemies with its enchantments and illusions.
The shadowcraft mage prestige class basically allows you to do two things:
1.) Copy most conjurations and all evocation effects of any level using the spell silent image (on the beguiler spell list)
2.) Cast these said conjurations and evocation effects with greater reality (i.e. instead of doing 30% of the damage if the NPC sees through the illusion, it does 60% of the damage. At high levels the damage can go as high as 130% of the base damage. Imagine a black blade of disaster doing 60d6 damage/ round.)
So at high levels, a beguiler/shadowcraft mage is not limited to bamboozling the opponents, he can deal direct damage on par with the most puissant of wizards as well (or sorcerers at least).
Skillwise, the beguiler does lose out when taking these classes. But as the shadowcraft mage is only 5 levels long, its more of a minor inconvenience as opposed to a crippling loss of skills. After all, the beguiler can always put extra points into the skills that they neglected while pursuing the shadowcraft mage class once they exit the prestige class. This re-allocation of skills requires a couple of levels, which is why some people like to enter the prestige class as early as possible (around lvl 6).
Of course there are others who like to stay in the beguiler class, I think Psifon was advocating the use of the beguiler as an elite infiltrator the other day. And there is nothing wrong with that, I suppose.
prototype00
Hmm.
Stuff to think about =)
While the abilities of the class seem 'cool,' I think the beguiler would practically end up as dead-weight on a party in a real playing-envirornment. He's a rogue who can't sneak-attack, and a bard without his best utility spells. Lacking SA means that he can't really contribute to combat, and many of his spells would try to bypass combat -- which, if successful, means the rest of the party isn't having fun. Sure, shadow-conj/evok will get you XX% into the fray, but why bother...
That said:
Beguiler 6 *RainbowServant(CD) 10 = no CL dip and spontaneously cast all divine spells, and at 16th lvl you are useful.
*by the text, rainbow servant loses no CL*
Hmm... while most of what this guy said was crap, the end part about Rainbow Servant seemed a bit interesting. I'm actually just leveling up my beguiler to 7 now, and in the last adventure I helped out a Couatl. However, I'm not seeing how this guy says you don't lose any caster level... Rainbow Servant quite obviously loses 4 caster levels. It almost seems not worth it as a PrC for losing 4 levels. Any ideas on this? Thanks!
-0 would be too powerful and -4 might be too much, so my DM says -2
A natural PrC for the Beguiler is the Rainbow Servant (Complete Divine). Full Casting (ignore the table...text trumps tables) and full access to the Cleric Spell list at level 10. As the Beguiler doesn't have a limited number of spells known (like the Sorc), all Cleric spells immediately go onto their list and can be cast normally.
A nice combination of the Beguiler's powerful Illusion and Enchantment spells combined with the Cleric's excellent Abjuration abilities (and some direct damage).
This is an old trick used for the Warmage, but it works just as well here.
I dont' believe this has been mentioned yet:
Uh... Look at the post RIGHT before yours.
And the one before that.
Doesn't work anyways. It adds spells to the list that they can select from with their expanded knowledge thing. Carefully check the wording again. Not that useful.
Beguiler 12 (an actual NPC in my campaign)
Elf
1 Combat Reflexes
3 Weapon Finesse
6 Sidestep
9 Arcane Thesis (Greater Invisibility)
12 Spectral Skirmisher
Essentially with this feat combination (he wields a kusari-gama, which he is proficient with because of a house rule (Elves are Oriental/Samurai/Ninja types))
he gets AoO's for everyone who makes a melee attack, steps away so they don't know where he is using sidestep, and is always invisible. (with +5 move silently due to SS, for a total of +27 move silently)
This, plus casting a spell each round. Still trying to figure out my advanced learning.
Doesn't work anyways. It adds spells to the list that they can select from with their
expanded knowledge thing. Carefully check the wording again. Not that useful.
No disrespect, but why then would the entry on the RS say "More sorcerers than wizards take on the mantle of the rainbow servant, because access to cleric domains is a compelling goal when spells known are otherwise so limited"?
Its not like the domain powers themselves are anything to write about. Air domain is useless, as you dont HAVE turning. Good and Law are lackluster to say the least.
If it we as you say, about the advanced learning bit, then it wouldnt really change the 'otherwise so limited' difference sorcerers have. In fact it would make more wizard more RSs than sorcerors, as a wizard can just scribe spells into his book as soon as he found em, instead of a sorcerer who has to wait to gain a level before choosing a cleric spell instead of a wizard spell. And it really wouldnt be much of a class that way, if i cant choose the greater variety of cleric spells til 10th level, then i only have four levels to choose real cleric spells. COnsider also that most of the three domains spells you get are already on the Sor/Wiz table.
This is abother reason where i am inclined to believe you get all the spells. You are losing 4 caster levels after all, and it is otherwise not that impressive a PrC.
pyro_cat Quote:
Doesn't work anyways. It adds spells to the list that they can select from with their
expanded knowledge thing. Carefully check the wording again. Not that useful.
No disrespect, but why then would the entry on the RS say "More sorcerers than wizards take on the mantle of the rainbow servant, because access to cleric domains is a compelling goal when spells known are otherwise so limited"?
Its not like the domain powers themselves are anything to write about. Air domain is useless, as you dont HAVE turning. Good and Law are lackluster to say the least.
If it we as you say, about the advanced learning bit, then it wouldnt really change the 'otherwise so limited' difference sorcerers have. In fact it would make more wizard more RSs than sorcerors, as a wizard can just scribe spells into his book as soon as he found em, instead of a sorcerer who has to wait to gain a level before choosing a cleric spell instead of a wizard spell. And it really wouldnt be much of a class that way, if i cant choose the greater variety of cleric spells til 10th level, then i only have four levels to choose real cleric spells. COnsider also that most of the three domains spells you get are already on the Sor/Wiz table.
This is abother reason where i am inclined to believe you get all the spells. You are losing 4 caster levels after all, and it is otherwise not that impressive a PrC.
Sadly the descripitive text for the rainbow servant and possibly all its abilities were created before they changed the rules on domains being obtained by sorcerors.
Also the air domain grants a distinct form of turning and is unrealted to the presence or abcence of turn undead
Is there a way to qualify for Shadowcrafter at 9th level and have nymph's kiss without some sort of alignment change cheese?
I can't help you with Nymph's Kiss, because I don't know it.
Boytbpc
So I have a question.
Is there a way to qualify for Shadowcrafter at 9th level and have nymph's kiss without some sort of alignment change cheese?
I don't remember the Shadowcraft Mage having an alignment restriction but if so... Well, cheese it is!
Getting the Shadow spell via Advanced Learning is easy as has been explained in this thread numerous times. The Shadowcraft Mage is the most poplar prestige class running around here after all.
I'm going with the Changeling build myself. Dimwitted, as I lead myself to apparently be, it took me a few weeks to realize that I don't have to take all 4 levels of Recaster at once and so can use the Expanded Knowledge class feature it offers earlier for some "normal" direct damage spell, just in case, and still get Limited Wish through the second one.
I'm busy trying to find a way to justify taking levels of Sandshaper to the DM while still being a Changeling. I may have an open and flexible mind but he sure doesn't. He's's so stuck in his stereotypes. I'm still waiting for the day that an orc walks by who is not an idiot, not a Barbarian and not trying to kill me for no good reason.
Love a good rant and cigarettes!
...use the Expanded Knowledge class feature ... [to] get Limited Wish...
How is this possible? Limited Wish is neither an Illusion nor Enchantment spell.
Or am I not understanding what you said?
How is this possible? Limited Wish is neither an Illusion nor Enchantment spell.
Or am I not understanding what you said?
Its in reference to the recasters expanded knowledge for which limited wish is an allowable option not the beguilers advanced learning ability
Its in reference to the recasters expanded knowledge for which limited wish is an allowable option not the beguilers advanced learning ability
You could aslo consider the same alternative the Warmage have for advance learning: take a spell a level higher than it is (PHB2).
Sorry guys, but I've noticed some of your builds have 3 feats at lvl 1, how is that even possible?
With Flaws (Unearthed Arcana)
=================================================
THanks LucRivNor for this splendid handbook. I think the beguiler will be my next character.
some remarks for the handbook:
- a minor correction: the saves versus 'Hold'spells are Will-based. Too bad
- Nymph's Kiss (Exalted) : the way I read this feat, is that it gives you better saves and CHA-check...only versus fey. Besides 1 skillpoint per level; that's not a good feat. But I could be wrong
- I have second thoughts about improved feint. It'll cost you 2 feats, that are probably better spent on spellfocus etc (as said before).
- Insightful Reflexes : ....what source?
LucRivNor ,
Wouldn't it be a good idea to add the 'source' to each suggested feat, spell or PrC in your Handbook?
Thanks !
1st level:
Net of Shadows: 1d6 r, makes 1 cr/level be concealed: this can be used in 2 ways:
- battlefield controll: creatures cannot see beyond 5 ft, this gives you a good start in disorienting you'r foes badly
- conceal yourself and your fellow PC's when you need to hide from the baddies
4th level: (mentioned before)
shadow well: get rid of one creature for the rest of the combat and when he returns he might be frightened and you can finish it of.
I prefer this spell over 'phantasmal killer': you only need óne save (will, versus will AND Fort of PhK), creatures can be immune to mind affecting spells, getting a creature out of a fight for at least 8 rounds is just as good as killing it.
and to a lesser extend:
3rd level:
shadow binding: battlefield controll! pin creatures to the ground, just to bad it's just a 10'rad
and on the fly, from races of the Dragon:
1st level: Powerword Pain: 1d6 dam/r
2nd: Powerword sickenend: nice
6th level: Powerword Nauseate: opponenet can't do much anymore
and to a lesser extend:
3rd level: powerword deafen: jst for spellcasters
5th level: Powerword disable: from 50 to 0, nice to finish it of
what do you think?
Take Net of Shadows from the Spell Compendium (or any other first level Illusion (shadow) spell you can find) as your first advanced learning. Take heighten spell and spell focus (illusion) as your feats, and voila (I think)! ;)
This only works if you have the Practical Metamagic feat (which requires the Dragonblood subtype [Dragonborn, Spellscale, Kobold, or Half-Dragon]). You have to be able to Heighten net of shadows (or any other available shadow spell) to a 4th level spell to qualify. You cant do this normally until 8th level (when you can cast 4th level spells). Practical metamagic however allows you to cast a Heightened spell as a 3rd level spell due to reducing the metamagic level cost by 1.
However, for most practical gaming applications, the "quick entry" trick is not going to work. Requiring a Dragonblood Gnome is a bit much. Even if using the adaptation note in ScM to allow other races, having to acquire the Dragonblood is a lot to get past most DM's unless they allow Kobolds or Spellscales.
For a Beguiler, in most DM games, the best option (assuming you took beguiler for its skill/spell blend) is:
Beguiler 8 / ScM 5 / Beguiler 7
or
Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / Beguiler +2 / ScM 5 / Beguiler +7
If you don't care so much about the Skill aspect, you could follow up the last 7 levels with some other class combination such as Incantrix (metamagic fun) or Shadowcrafter.
JMHO.
How about dragonborn gnomes?
This is the cheese of using the dragonborn conversion template that I mentioned in the post to get a dragonblood gnome. Most Dm's arent going to allow this unless its a draconic heavy game world. For optimization, yes it works. However, just pointing out that in application, its not so easy.
Dread Necromancers, Warmages and Beguilers don't have spell known slots that they gain every new level after taking a level in a prestige class, how would they gain the spells from the domain granted to them?
They don't prepare spells and they don't gain new spells known like a sorcerer does so how would the cleric spell list be added to their own?
Customer Service.
Response (Brandon) 08/24/2006 09:04 AM
Kurama,
For the Domain spells, the rules simply don't cover it, it will be up to your DM to adjudicate.
With the Rainbow servant they will follow the rules laid out in their class descriptions. Beguilers and Warmages automatically know all spells from their spell lists that they can cast, just add the cleric spell list to their own and use the same rule!
Good Luck and Game On!
;)
prototype00
They usually open up with something akin to. "If text written ever conflicts with tables or charts then text is considered to be the official ruling."
The FAQS or Erratas already cover this though.
They usually open up with something akin to. "If text written ever conflicts with tables or charts then text is considered to be the official ruling."
That sadly causes problems as you end up with the which text argument as apparently in translated versions the text matches the chart
That sadly causes problems as you end up with the which text argument as apparently in translated versions the text matches the chart
The text that counts is the most recent printing (as always). The foreign editions came later, and they don't give RS full casting.
The text that counts is the most recent printing (as always). The foreign editions came later, and they don't give RS full casting.
I agree, but that doesn't stop the arguments
I can only use fairly core books (no UA e.g.) I can use The Complete ________ series though.
Thanks
I can only use fairly core books (no UA e.g.) I can use The Complete ________ series though.
Shadow Adept remains one of the best dip PrCs out there for Beguilers. They get a lot out of it, and it does delay your advanced learning. It's not a great PrC after first, but it's not a bad one either.
I am using a non-evil character so the Mindbender will not work for the pre 7th level PrC. Any good suggestions? I would love to get that 4th level spell for that earlier Adv Learning without taking a worthless PrC to do it or falling behind in the spell casting progression.
I can only use fairly core books (no UA e.g.) I can use The Complete ________ series though.
Thanks
Wild Mage! Its slightly feat intensive, but the feats aren't a complete waste, and with practised spell caster you can take advantage of the cheese involved with wild mage and add caster levels without much downside. 1 level dip and you have your 4th level spell.
I am using a non-evil character so the Mindbender will not work for the pre 7th level PrC
Well, unlike the blackguard or the red wizard, mindbenders don't have to be evil, they just can't be good. Was your character neutral?
prototype00
Well, unlike the blackguard or the red wizard, mindbenders don't have to be evil, they just can't be good. Was your character neutral?
prototype00
Ah, yes well we all have to be good alignment for this campaign.
Suitable FeatsVow's of Non violence (Exalted) add +4 to your DC but you must be non-violent...
”
I looked it up. It can be very good. It says that I doesn't stack with spell-focus (too bad), but needs Spellfocus when you can have this.
and then it struck me: you're fellow gain penalties for killing opponents.... nope, that's not going to work.
besides that;
you're suggestiing some builds. The things is that the 'mindbender' is a neutral/evil PrC.
Are there ideas for another good dip that is good for good-characters?
Secondly, your party members only gain penalties if they kill helpless creatures. If you focus on hindering them or confusion effects, they are not really helpless as they could still attack you with lethal force. The only time this applies is when they are helpless or charmed and being used as a puppet.
I am not advocating abusing the rules and just never holding or charming a creature so your homicidal buddies can not feel guilty about things, but the Beguiler is a perfect class to be non-violent as all your powers revolve around setting the stage for a situation and enchantments which cause no direct damage. If your character is being built and played to prevent combat or be an ultra-fast infiltration team to take out the head of an organization without killing everyone, this is the class.
Vow of Nonviolence is a great choice for the class. Keep in mind that you only face restrictions with humanoid or monsterous humanoid creatures- the types that can be charmed or diplomatized with usually. All other creatures are fair game..
True, but you also only gain the benefits for (monstrous) humanoids.
Secondly, your party members only gain penalties if they kill helpless creatures. If you focus on hindering them or confusion effects, they are not really helpless as they could still attack you with lethal force. The only time this applies is when they are helpless or charmed and being used as a puppet..
True, you are correct. I should have read that more carefully.
I am not advocating abusing the rules and just never holding or charming a creature so your homicidal buddies can not feel guilty about things, but the Beguiler is a perfect class to be non-violent as all your powers revolve around setting the stage for a situation and enchantments which cause no direct damage. If your character is being built and played to prevent combat or be an ultra-fast infiltration team to take out the head of an organization without killing everyone, this is the class.
This might require the team to adjust it's more usual approach to enemies.
Maybe the thing I'm wondering about, is how to deal with this roleplay-wise (maybe I'm on the wrong board for that): I'm figuring out the logic behind this Feat.
- You're more eager to talk to people that can be talked to....no you even made a *vow* not to use force when not needed.
- but still you get into combat once in a while; with friends that chop of other peoples heads....mwoah
--> you can use the rules to the letter, but it feels a bit weird.
Here's the thing with Vows: they're personal codes. Just because it's not OK for you to do it doesn't mean that it's not okay for your friend; you walk a different path from his. *You* refuse to hurt people, because it would hamper your spiritual enlightement; that doesn't mean no one else ever should.
that's not what I mean. Why would you walk with people that have no qualms with beating a person up, when you're devoted to ending comflict and solving problem without force?
Such a character is in no way required to never interact with people and always respond to genocide with a Piffany ('Naughty, naught, evilbadguy, shame on you!'). This is the problem most people have with the vow. The other problem is that most classes are usually one-dimentional and prevent you from being flexible with your skills (no Boom spells for wizard, no sneak attacks as rogue, clerics aren't hindered but have no skills to back it up, etc.)
The Beguiler is an awesome way to get past this, as all the spells can be used in such a way to prevent or minimize damage, and therefore the character is designed well to be nonviolent even in a violent group. On top of that, you have the skills to be more than just an illusionist and be the party face without giving up some other ability as the Rogue.
Granted, the feat only works on humanoid, but in a roleplaying game where the Beguiler is going to be used, it is fantastic. In addition, those games tend to either have humanoid masterminds or fantastically powerful dumba** creatures. The former have a tougher save, the latter tend to have the worst time with will saves. Especially if you have a DM running a game in a lawful town, the guard will love you for handling their problems with a minimum of damage and disruption.
How about a glitterdust spell fired off as your highest level spell save? Blinderball anyone?
Shut that mage up with a high level SILENCE!!! Or lombotomize him with the max level Feeblemind. With a greater spell focus enchant, thats making that spell harder by 6 points than the highest spell you can cast vs. the Bad Spellcaster.
Is this worth the feat?
On the otherhand, is the feat chain spell feasable, even with the greater focus? By the time you are say, 12th level, wont the baddies you face be able to save against a third level spell, much less the -4 versions?
If you could only use one Feat slot for an "Extra Spell" which one would you use?
but while you're thinking about 'extra spells' , add some 'advanced learning ' tips too. Some posts back I've given some. What ya think?
I don't have a tip yet,
but while you're thinking about 'extra spells' , add some 'advanced learning ' tips too. Some posts back I've given some. What ya think?
I agree.
In addition to Extra Spell "Bests" (if you could only take one)
...Advanced Learning strategies for those taking the "pure" route (spell levels: 1st, 3rd, 5th, ...) and also for those taking the "dip" for one level of Mindbender, Wildmage, etc. for the 4th level spell option at 8th caster level (spell levels: 1st, 4th, 6th, ...).
Ideas?
When taking the "path of the pure beguiler"TM
(levels 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9)
1st level spells
- Net of Shadows (SpC): battlefield controll when blinding opponents, or when cast on your friends a way of hiding them
- Powerword Pain (RoDr): 1d6 damage/round can be effective for quite some levels.
3rd level spells:
- Shadow Binding (SpC)
- Tasha's Hideous Laghter (PHB, 2nd level spell)
- Powerword Sickened (RoDr, 2nd level spell)
Why? I find the 3rd level slotts very usefull. THe 2nd level slots can use a boost
5th level spells:
- Powerword Disable (RoDr)
(this slot could be better though)
7th level spells:
- Symbol of Stunning (PHB)
- Maddening Whispers (SpC): it's even better than the Symbol, for it leaves you the * choice* (I think 4) what to so with your victims
- Hiss of Sleep (SpC): takes only a V-component, very sneaky
- POwerword Nausea (RoDr, 6th level spell): you effectively take out an opponent
9th level spells:
- Programmed Amnesia (SpC): If you want to stay sneaky till the end, this spell will help a lot. No opponent will remember what you did to them
(I found this slot the most difficult to fill)
Or when taking 1 level dip in a spellcaster-SpC:
(levels 1, 4, 6, 8 and 9)
1st level spells:
- Net of Shadows (SpC): descibed above
- Powerword Pain (RoDr): descibed above
4th level spells:
- Shadow well: kick an opponent in the Shadowplane (makes the combat easier) and when he comes back all frightened, finish it off
I'm not keen on shadow conjuration: if you want to be a *BoomBoom*-mage, play an evocer.
I like the Phantasmal Killer-spell, but it takes you two saves (will ánd Fort) to kill your opponent. Shadow Well is easier.
6th level spells:
- Powerword Nauseau: a stated above, a very effective spell
8th level spells:
(you already have Powerword Stun, so a area effect spell will be helpfull)
- Symbol of INsanity (PHB): take out a whol bunch of enemies, bye bye
- Mass Charm Monster: be mister 'subtle' untill high level. Why fight if they're your friends.
- Superior INvisibility (SpC): It wont work against True Seeing, but it makes you less vulnerable to rogues with keen ears or animals with Scent
9th level spells:
- Programmed Amnesia (SpC): If you want to stay sneaky till the end, this spell will help a lot. No opponent will remember what you did to them
Extra spell:feat:
It should be something that will be effective when your mindaffecting spells don't work on undead, oozes or constructs.
Gnome (good):
level1:Nymphs Kiss (BoED);
level3:Sacred Vow(BoED) (entry feat)
level6
ow of Non-Violence (BoED); level9:Extra Spell (ComplArca): at higher level it's good to have a 'backup spell' when mindaffecting-spells don't work
--> take a spell from 1st to 4th level: although yoúr choices will be limited because of the Vow of NV
One thing I would recommend Beguiler players to do is to talk to their DMs about the "Retraining Spells" feature in PHB II to allow you to re-train into other Enchantment or Illusion spells. That might help you replace some of the overlapping or less effective spells.
Anyways, I like:
1st
-Friendly Face (RoD): +5 Circumstance bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information, 10 min/level.
2nd
-Ray of Stupidity (SpC): The Arcane Ego Whip, a Ray that deals 1d4+1 Int damage. Since this isn't a penalty (as w. Ray of Enfeeblement), you can use multiple Rays to drop an opponent.
3rd
-Heroism (PHB): Good buff spell if your party has no Bard. Additionally, the Save bonus is something Inspire Courage doesn't give.
-Ray of Dizziness (SpC): Like a targeted Slow; subject limited to a Move or Standard action.
5th
-Shadow Evocation (PHB): Gives you some damage dealing ability, and huge versatility with the number of 1st-4th level Evocation spells.
6th
-Greater Heroism (PHB): See Heroism.
7th
-Greater Shadow Conjuration (PHB): Gives you all the most useful Conjuration attack spells, while unlike Shades you can use it in your 7th, 8th and 9th level slots. Shadow Conjuration isn't as useful.
8th
-Greater Shadow Evocation (PHB): Gives you a good versatility in attack spells, can be used for 8th and 9th level slots.
-Ray of Stupidity (SpC):
-Ray of Dizziness (SpC): Like a targeted Slow; subject limited to a Move or Standard action...
Maybe this could be risky, since 'rays' require a touch attack and Beguilers have a bad BAB
3rd
-Heroism (PHB): Good buff spell if your party has no Bard. Additionally, the Save bonus is something Inspire Courage doesn't give..
I'm not impressed with the +2 buffs for *one* creature. Cast 'Haste' on *all* you're friends and they get a much better boost.
5th
-Shadow Evocation (PHB): Gives you some damage dealing ability, and huge versatility with the number of 1st-4th level Evocation spells.
7th
-Greater Shadow Conjuration (PHB): Gives you all the most useful Conjuration attack spells, while unlike Shades you can use it in your 7th, 8th and 9th level slots. Shadow Conjuration isn't as useful.
8th
-Greater Shadow Evocation (PHB): Gives you a good versatility in attack spells, can be used for 8th and 9th level slots.
I really don't understand the attention these spells get, unless you wan't to go 'Shadowcraft'PrC with the 'heightened spell'-feat.
IMO, you should build on your strengths and not your weaknesses (No direct damage spells). Why take these spells? You only get the much weaker versions of the ones you want. Why Bother?
2. Rays are ranged touch, no save attacks. All arcane casters should keep one or a few Ray spells on hand (for exampmle, scorching Ray). They are for Giants and Dragons, who have bad touch ACs. They also don't have the HP-guessing of Power Words (which are also good, but iffy), because you can use your companions' actions to figure out the AC. You can also Potion of True Strike to ensure effect if you're worried about it.
As for the "Shadow" spells: 90-95% of the Beguiler's offense comes from Mind-Effecting spells or spells that do sub-dual or condition damage.
Useless against Undead.
Useless against Constructs.
Useless against many/most Elementals.
Useless against Swarms and Oozes.
In other words, unless you're in a campaign with mostly human or humanoid opponents, most of your spell-list is situational.
The Shadow spells give you some options. For example, Shadow Evocation:
-Gives you spells of every energy type (arguably), allowing you to put down, for example, Trolls.
-Gives you a bevy of area-effect spells, while most of your mind-affecting spells are single opponent.
-Works off something other than a Will Save, allowing you to go against other casters.
Maybe this could be risky, since 'rays' require a touch attack and Beguilers have a bad BAB
As are wizards and sorcs who usually use ray spells, its not a major problem
As for the "Shadow" spells: 90-95% of the Beguiler's offense comes from Mind-Effecting spells or spells that do sub-dual or condition damage.
Useless against Undead.
Useless against Constructs.
Useless against many/most Elementals.
Useless against Swarms and Oozes.
In other words, unless you're in a campaign with mostly human or humanoid opponents, most of your spell-list is situational.
I checked it out. At third spell-level you have some spells that still can be usefull in such combat (namely Haste and Slow). ...and maybe 'glitterdust' at 2nd spell-level.
For the rest of the spell-levels, you indeed have a problem. So getting extra spells, through 'advanced learning' and maybe 'extra spell, in those 'slots' you will give yourself more versatility.
I've already given some (shadow) ideas for advance learning:
1st level - net of shadows,
3rd level - shadow binding (which can be used in your 4th level slot, okay it's not optimal)
I still feel a bit partial to the 'shadow conjuration/evocation'. I probably would choose them once (4th spell-level and not also the 'greater' versions), for 'just in case'.
These advanced learning slots just seem a bit too valuable for more.
I'll take a look at those ray-spells...maybe they're also nice for the 'extra spell' feat.
I'd always take at least Greater shadow conjuration and Greater shadow evocation for the sheer versatility and utility they add. It's not as if you have to use them every round, or even prepare them, it's just that you can pretty much always use them to solve problems that your normal spells can't.
The Mindbender-PrC has been suggested many time, but you can't be 'good.'
Does someone have a PrC-suggestion that is easily reachable for a 'good' beguiler?
thanks !
Wild Mage
Fate Spinner
All three are good one level dips to delay advanced learning, though none offer anything as nice as the mindbender's telepathy.
Of those three, only Fate Spinner is worth taking past level 1. Fortunitally, it's also pretty fluffy for a beguiler. Of course, if the goal is ideal advanced learning progression, then you don't want to take more then a one level dip of anything anyway.
On a side note, I'm confused by all the Shadowcraft Mage love. Taking five levels of that class, plus a one level dip in something else to qualify, means you'll lose two of your advanced learning spells. Won't that severely limit the number of shadow spells you know, and thus the benefits you can get from the class?
That Wild Mage dip could be fun if you're willing to drop the feats on it (especially Practiced Spellcaster for the CL boost).
On a side note, I'm confused by all the Shadowcraft Mage love. Taking five levels of that class, plus a one level dip in something else to qualify, means you'll lose two of your advanced learning spells. Won't that severely limit the number of shadow spells you know, and thus the benefits you can get from the class?
The shadowcraft mage effectivly turns your figment spells into shadow spells which is why the lose of advanced learning doesn't matter, you effectivly add every evocation and conjuration spell to your list
The shadowcraft mage effectivly turns your figment spells into shadow spells which is why the lose of advanced learning doesn't matter, you effectivly add every evocation and conjuration spell to your list
That's why it actually isn't encouraged that Beguilers going into Shadowcraft mage take Shadow conjuration/evocation spells with Advanced learning, that level 3 ability makes them completely useless in comparison. Those spells are best taken by Beguilers that don't aim for the PrC.
Blood magus (for neutral or chaotic good)?
Too bad it requires 2 feats and being creepy
Wild Mage?
hmm, wild magic is a bit to 'off target' for me.
Fate Spinner?
you need to be alble to cast 4th level spells...so it's of no use for 'advanced learining at 7th level.
I thought i saw something in de the Planar handbook/ manual. I'll look it up again later.
5th
-Shadow Evocation (PHB): Gives you some damage dealing ability, and huge versatility with the number of 1st-4th level Evocation spells.
7th
-Greater Shadow Conjuration (PHB): Gives you all the most useful Conjuration attack spells, while unlike Shades you can use it in your 7th, 8th and 9th level slots. Shadow Conjuration isn't as useful.
8th
-Greater Shadow Evocation (PHB): Gives you a good versatility in attack spells, can be used for 8th and 9th level slots.
Don't you think that many conjuration spells are good offensive-spells and beside that, they can have many other uses (even outside of combat)?
Evocation, on the other hand, has mostly damaging spells and lack a certain versatility. If you have 10 spells that can do 1d6dam/level, why need 20 others (besides being anoth energy type for instance)
Can you explain me, why you wan't to have them both?
What Shadow Evocation gives you is:
-At least one spell for each energy type.
-Spells with different ranges and areas of effect, which will be useful in certain situations. Lightning bolt might be more useful than Fireball, for ex.
-Spells with different effect types. You might want to use Rays, or no Save effect spells like Force Missile.
The reason to take both Evocations is "normal" Shadow Evocation taps your damage out at about 60 (unless you get lucky on scorching ray). Then again, maybe you aren't getting enough from 15-20D6 to justify an 8th level spell slot.
Shadow Conjuration isn't very useful for dealing damage or battlefield control, but gives you Summon Monster 1-3 for free. If you're only going to take one, it might as well be Greater, which gives you access to Evards, Cloudkill, Acid Fog, and the better Wall spells, ie the useful battlefield-control.
I also really recommend Ray of Dizziness. It's basically a targeted Slow with no save, and the range is the same as Tasha's Hideous Laughter (both are "close").
So, if I were to take the Shadow spells, I'd take:
Recommend:
1. Shadow Evocation
2. Greater Shadow Conjuration
Don't Recommend:
3. Greater Shadow Evocation
4. Shadow Conjuration
It really depends on how much damange you think you need to be doing. If you have a blaster in the party and you're the Rogue, I'd say you can get away with just Shadow Evocation for self defense.
That's what I think the role of a Beguiler is; ... roguish.
I don't want to pretend that I'm a *boomboom*-mage, if I want to, I'll just be one and don't try to fix things with the Beguiler
The reason to take both Evocations is "normal" Shadow Evocation taps your damage out at about 60 (unless you get lucky on scorching ray). Then again, maybe you aren't getting enough from 15-20D6 to justify an 8th level spell.
maybe I'm being silly, but like I said above, I think that's enough for me.
Shadow Conjuration isn't very useful for dealing damage or battlefield control, but gives you Summon Monster 1-3 for free. If you're only going to take one, it might as well be Greater, which gives you access to Evards, Cloudkill, Acid Fog, and the better Wall spells, ie the useful battlefield-control.
When you take a look in the SpC, you see some nice damage spells from te Conjuration-school ...even at 3rd level (shadow Conjuration-spell). At least, damaging enough for me, so not to be useless againts constructs/elementals/undead/etc
I think Ray of Dizziness is very good. It's basically a targeted Slow with no save, and the range is the same as Tasha's Hideous Laughter (both are "close").
I guess it's from the SpC. I'll look it up.
it requires 8 ranks in a knowledge....and must be introduced to the organisation
So any official ruling on Legion of Sentinels? Does anyone have what they think is a good working copy of this spell? AoO only? Do they have normal atks? What atk bonus? Lets see what the community is using so far for this spell.
I asked CostumServ this question myself, since it came up a few times.
their reply was:
Thank you for contacting us.
The swordsmen’s attacks are at a bonus equal to your caster level, they threaten critical hits on a 19 or 20, and they deal 1d8 points of slashing damage +1 per three caster levels (max +5).
Take Care!.
So they do attack normally in the spellarea
Good Beguiler (Gnome)
(One level dip in “Visionary Seeker” from the Planar Handbook: easy acces)
1: Beguiler 1: feat- Nymph’s Kiss (BoED)
2: Beguiler 2:
3: Beguiler 3: feat- Sacred Vow, Advanced Learning- Net of Shadows (1st lvl,SpC)
4: Beguiler 4:
5: Beguiler 5:
6: Beguiler 6: feat- Vow of Non-Violence (BoED)
7: Visionary Seeker1:
8: Beguiler 7: Advanced Learning- Shadow Conjuration (PHB, 4th lvl)
9: Beguiler 8: feat- Spell Focus Illusion
10: Beguiler 9:
11: Beguiler 10:
12: Beguiler 11: feat – Spell penetration, Advanced Learning- PowerWord Nausea (RoDr)
13: Beguiler 12:
14: Beguiler 13:
15: Beguiler 14: feat- Greater Spell Focus Illusion
16: Beguiler 15: Advanced Learning- Greater Shadow Evocation
17: Beguiler 16:
18: Beguiler 17: feat- Extra Spell- Polar Ray
19: Beguiler 18:
20: Beguiler 19: Advanced Learning- Programmed Amnesia (PrC)
(21: Beguiler 20: feat – Energy Substitution
(I just inserted the feats and chosen spells, not the free extra's from class or PrC)
Explanation:
- Feats: I see a high spell-DC one of the most important aspects of Beguiler spellcasting. I chose feats accordingly.
- The Shadow Conjuration/evocation spells are mainly used when the mindaffecting spells are insufficient (vs Undead for example)....
- This is why only Spellfocus for Illusion (for shadow) is used and not also Spellfocus Enchantment: The +4 DC from Vow of N-V will many a time do the trick.
- The ‘Ray’-spell is chosen for versatility against opponent that either have an immunity versus mindaffecting spells or opponent that have a very high Will-save, but a low touch-AC (like Dragons)
Alternatives Advanced Learning:
Level 12:
- is there another nice ‘non mind affecting’ 6th level spell ?
Level 16:
- Symbol of Stunning (PHB): a (much needed) area effect spell for this 8th-level slot
- Greater Shadow Conjuration (7th level) = in general more versatile then Evocation, but lower level
- Superior Invisibility (SpC)
OR;
Neutral/Evil Beguiler (Gnome)
(One level dip in “Mindbender” from the Complete Arcana: easy access and it fits the profile)
1: Beguiler 1: feat- Spell Focus Enchantment (PHB)
2: Beguiler 2:
3: Beguiler 3: feat- Spell Focus Illusion, Advanced Learning- Net of Shadows (SpC)
4: Beguiler 4:
5: Beguiler 5:
6: Beguiler 6: feat- Spell Penetration (PHB)
7: Mindbender1:
8: Beguiler 7: Advanced Learning- Shadow Conjuration
9: Beguiler 8: feat- Greater Spell Focus Illusion
10: Beguiler 9:
11: Beguiler 10:
12: Beguiler 11: feat - Greater Spell Focus Enchantment, Advanced Learning- PowerWord Nausea (RoDr)
13: Beguiler 12:
14: Beguiler 13:
15: Beguiler 14: feat- Extra Spell: ”ray”…?(suggestions?)
16: Beguiler 15: Advanced Learning- Greater Shadow Evocation
17: Beguiler 16:
18: Beguiler 17: feat- …? (suggestions?)
19: Beguiler 18:
20: Beguiler 19: Advanced Learning- Programmed Amnesia (PrC)
(21: Beguiler 20: feat – … ?
Explanation:
- Feats: I see a high spell-DC one of the most important aspects of Beguiler spellcasting. I chose feats accordingly.
- The Shadow Conjuration/evocation spells are mainly used when the mindaffecting spells are insufficient (vs Undead for example).
- Since the Neutral/Evil beguiler is equal dependant of Enchantment ánd Illusion-spells, both Spell-focus paths are choosen.
- The ‘Ray’-spell is chosen for versatility against opponent that either have an immunity versus mindaffecting spells or opponent that have a very high Will-save, but a low touch-AC (like Dragons)
Alternatives Advanced Learning:
- Same as Good beguiler
Questions:
- What other feats increase spell-DC?
- What other feats help overcome SR?
- What are good additional feats for the Neutral/Evil beguiler?
- What is another good 6th level spell for Advanced Learning?
- What is another good 9th level spell for Advanced Learning?
While I don't have a recovery method, it doesn't particularly matter, as my Adaptive Style brings me more martial maneuvers as I need them. Practically, though, I don't even need that much: I have more than enough skills, spells, and maneuvers to eat up my standard, move, and swift actions in any given combat. -
-- ACS
-- Atherlos
I'm currently playing a Beguiler 8/Jade Phoenix Mage 5.
While I don't have a recovery method, it doesn't particularly matter, as my Adaptive Style brings me more martial maneuvers as I need them.
Two problems the earliest you can get into JPM without losing caster levels is 10 as you can't take martial study at first level and need to take martial study twice and martial stance once.
Second adaptive style has crusadar, swordsage, or warblade 1 as a prereq so you can't take it with only beguiler and JPM levels
The item in Sandstorm that adds +2 to enchantment DCs seems key for beguilers
-- Atherlos
Veil of Allure (+2 ecnahntment save DC and Cha-based (Su) abilities) - 14,000gp
Good item if you can afford it and are concentrating on enchantment.
Kneepads of Allure
Oh yes, no one would be able to resist those enchantments.
Okay, so when I want to have "shadowevoc/conj" in my spellsknown-list, I need one level of a nice PrC to delay my 'advanced learning'.
The Mindbender-PrC has been suggested many time, but you can't be 'good.'
Does someone have a PrC-suggestion that is easily reachable for a 'good' beguiler?
thanks !
Requires a feat - but Fiend-Blooded from Heroes of Horror has some synergy if you don't mind losing skill points.
Me.
Veil of Allure (+2 ecnahntment save DC and Cha-based (Su) abilities) - 14,000gp
Good item if you can afford it and are concentrating on enchantment.
Well you're a beguiler....so yes, your focus (besides illusion) will be on enchantment. That's a great item indeed !
A good feat from Players Guide to faerun is 'Shadow Weave Magic'. You need to worship Shar or have 15 WIS, but your Illusion and Enchantment spells will have a +1 DC boost and to top it of, you get a +1 to overcome SR.
Feats :
Dazzling illusion can be good, but usualy, illusion purpose is to hide thing, not reveal it.
Rapid Metamagic can allow you to Quicken spell
Unsettling Enchantment let your enchantment do something even when save are fail
The Reserve feat are not so good for a Beguiler: you have a big number of spell slot and your keys spells are one it last long. The only one good to me is Magic disruption because it could be done as an immediate action. Even though, the caster level boost of these feats is interesting in addition the the Spell-like ability effect
Prestige classes :
Abjurant champion and Unseen seer for more "gish build". A great build with these classes are Changeling rogue 1/Beguiler 6/ Unseen seer 8/Abjurant Champion 5 for BAB 14 and caster level 19 with a lot of skill points. The Seer is good for kepping your skill ranks high but Divination spell power can cost you a lot! You could reach only level 5 in this class for a minor negative effect.
Begulier work well with wizard for Ultimate Magus because both cast with INT.
The caster level lost with Nightmare Spinner cost to much for what it does.
The beguiler has Use Magic Device. Wouldnt a wand of scorching ray do the trick for lack of damage spells (or wand of magic missle for lower levels until shadow conjuration etc)??
Although I did not read everyone's post on all the pages, I did jump around the pages looking to see if this was mentioned....
The beguiler has Use Magic Device. Wouldnt a wand of scorching ray do the trick for lack of damage spells (or wand of magic missle for lower levels until shadow conjuration etc)??
It could be done, if we overoptimize. Like having spellfocus(UMD) + lot of ranks & High CHA at low level. Then retrain for not waisting feat and skill points.
But you should try to play differently. Not long ago, I started playing my first Beguiler.At low level, the best way to stay alive is with your skills. Try to be helped by others (non PC player), try to go non-combat, ...I already know maybe for you it is impossible with your DM.
The strengh of this class is very DM dependant. If your DM is the kind who never let you have circonstancial bonus on your skills, your just a guy who will eventualy fail only one skill check and get caugh.
In combat/pre-combat :
- Bluff your opponent is on the wrong side.
- Bluff you are more powerfull than he think
- Diplomacy a non-violent alternative
- Hide
- Disguise (via Disguise self) on opponnent side/as a greater threat/ as a person of authority for opponent. Or Silent image another person and bluff a voice
- Charm person / sleep could take care of 1 opponent
- Run with Expeditious retreat
- Charm helper who can give a hand to you in your expedition before combat
If you really need damage, Choose Power Word,Pain at level 3 advance learning (from Race of the Dragon). This spell is the greatest enchantment damage dealer.
Song of the Dead: Metamagic feat that enables your enchantments to work against undead for +1 spell level.
Plus as a bonus, what would Warlock Geshtalt well with, Favored Soul or maybe Dread Necro?
We are going to be able to play in a Geshtalt game. What is good to mix with a Beguiler? His stats are 18, 12, 8, 12, 10, 12 and he is human.
Plus as a bonus, what would Warlock Geshtalt well with, Favored Soul or maybe Dread Necro?
-- > A swashbucker is realy good (INT to damage).
-- > Binder could be fun also...
--> Warblade work well with INT synergy
Okay, when I would play either a good or a neutral beguiler (gnome) this would probably be it.
Good Beguiler (Gnome)
(One level dip in “Visionary Seeker” from the Planar Handbook: easy acces)
OR;
Neutral/Evil Beguiler (Gnome)
(One level dip in “Mindbender” from the Complete Arcana: easy access and it fits the profile)
Questions:
- What other feats increase spell-DC?
- What other feats help overcome SR?
- What are good additional feats for the Neutral/Evil beguiler?
- What is another good 6th level spell for Advanced Learning?
- What is another good 9th level spell for Advanced Learning?
LuvRivNor could you help me out with this built posted above, or just give me some tips?
LuvRivNor could you help me out with this built posted above, or just give me some tips?
- What other feats increase spell-DC?
Shape Soulmeld(Illusion Veil) , Mastery spells from player guide to Eberron
- What other feats help overcome SR?
(Greater) Spell Penetration feats are the best
- What are good additional feats for the Neutral/Evil beguiler?
Mindsight!!!! (from Lord of Madness)
- What is another good 6th level spell for Advanced Learning?
- What is another good 9th level spell for Advanced Learning?
The really good feats are the power words or the shadow evocation/conjuration. Superior invisibility(8th) could be a great choice also. Programmed amnesia(9th) too.
Mindsight!!!! (from Lord of Madness)
Can't find it in this book. Are you sure it's from that source?
p. 126 in the Toschar section. It's not clearly listed.
Hmm, nice. It gives you an ability that is similar as 'blindsense' within you telepathic range; being 100ft....great !
The 'only' downside is that it is a feat reserved for.....Tsochari (being an abbaration) . I don't think my fellow players and DM will agree me taking it.
All around great handbook though. Keep it up!
- What other feats increase spell-DC?
Shape Soulmeld(Illusion Veil) , Mastery spells from player guide to Eberron
I found the mastery feats but where (and what) the heck is Shape Soulmeld?
I found the mastery feats but where (and what) the heck is Shape Soulmeld?
It's a feat from Magic of Incarnum. Illusion Veil is a "soulmeld" that you can "shape" with the help of a feat.
Bard 1/ Beguiler 7/ Druid 1/ Master Thrower 1/ Fochlucan Lyrsit 10 maybe. AFB so I can't check the legal issues with this setup.
Grrr, mehaps.
Is there any way to make a skillmonkey gish with the beguiler? It seems that all PrCs with full 3/4 BAB have no skillpoints (except for unseen seer/daggerspell mage).
I think the biggest problem with a Beguiler based gish would be that Beguiler doesn't have any synergy with melee. What makes a normal caster/warrior good is the buffing spells, without them they tend to have really hard time surviving in melee, and Beguilers are really lacking with buffs.
But something like Beguiler 2/Human paragon 3/Fighter 1/Unseen seer 8/Abjurant champion 5/Spellsword 1 wouldn't be that bad a try, I think.
Here's a build I plan on playing, I'm starting at level 12. I wanted access to 9th spells and the spontaneous caster path offered more per day than the wizard, though later. I don't believe there's any real funny business going on to make this build work. One downside is that Practiced Spellcaster needs to be taken at 1st level, so your 1st level has to be wizard for this to work which also means you lose out on the Beguiler's higher number of skill points.
The wizard slots are used for damage spells and metamagic for the lower sorcerer spells using the UA Augmented Casting + Rapid Metamagic. The higher level sorcerer slots can then be used for wizard Persistent Spells up to 3rd level (6 + 3) or even Quicken up to 5th level (5 + 4).
I'm not sure if UA Augmented Casting can be done spontaneously or if it has to be prepared, anyone? Can the spell slot swaps be done spontaneously? And if so, what are the effects? Casting time increase for spontaneous casters?
The Combat Expertise and Improved Feint later in the build could be swapped out for other metamagic feats (Quicken) or Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Illusion / Enchantment).
First time posting, so excuse the formating or any other errors I might of done. Comments welcomed.
The new thing seems great for your favorite magical Scoundrel (aka the Beguiler)!!
Long live to the new game mechanic: Skills tricks!!!!
Good for Beguiler:
- Assume Quirk
- Group Fake-Out
- Second Impression
- Social Recovery
- Conceal Spellcasting!!!!! (cast and don't be seen casting)
- Swift Concentration!!!!! (concentration as a swift action)
I'm really sorry if this sounds dense...
For a Beguiler, it is best to use a Whip/Chain/Longspear. Got it. I understand it is for the reach aspect..but..
The whip and the Spiked Chain are exotic weapons...whats the down side of using them? Are there Minuses? And if there are, isn't it just harder to hit the opponnent in that case?
And the longspear is two handed (it seems) so how can i cast?
Sorry if this is newbie, but hey, i had to ask
Can someone explain this to me?
Thanks,
George
*lots of stuff*
one suggestion: start as beguiler to get more skill points.
@ George: The reach weapons you never actually use to attack normally, so there aren't as many misuses. You use the fact that you are in melee, 10' away, to make a Bluff check to feint them. You don't have any penalties due to non-proficiency this way. The spiked chain is particularly useful for another aspect: if an opponent provokes an AoO on you, you can use the weapon to make a disarm or trip attempt in response, keeping them at range hopefully so they can't take the AoO on you in response. You aren't likely to be successful against many opponents, but it keeps your options open (its decent for non-meaty types, against them you don't even try). The Whip is better for the extra reach it gives you to feint 5' reach opponents: if you are 15' away, they have to move 10' to get to you, which means no full-attack (unless they have the pounce ability; you still have to worry about nasty chargers like centaurs w/ lances).
What to use (chain or whip) all depends on what level you are: at low level, you might have a chance of tripping or disarming an opponent w/ your chain w/ moderate strength, but past that you want to keep the whip equipped.
You never take EWP as a Beguiler, unless you are doing a weird gish of some sort.
Did you look to the Complete Scoundrel exerpts?
The new thing seems great for your favorite magical Scoundrel (aka the Beguiler)!!
Long live to the new game mechanic: Skills tricks!!!!
Good for Beguiler:
- Assume Quirk
- Group Fake-Out
- Second Impression
- Social Recovery
- Conceal Spellcasting!!!!! (cast and don't be seen casting)
- Swift Concentration!!!!! (concentration as a swift action)
It indeed looks promising. Does anybody have the book yet?
I was looking at the WotC-site and thought that the 'Conceal Spellcasting' , 'Shrouded Dance' and 'Swift Concentration' skilltricks could be nice (although i don't have the book).
Especially the 'Group Fake-Out' could be really nice when making use of your 'cloaked spellcasting' ability....although less usefull when you're 'invisible' (starting from 4th level). On the other hand, casting 'invisiblity' every other round (because you become visible, when attacking) is rundown.
Any fresh ideas?
It indeed looks promising. Does anybody have the book yet?
I was looking at the WotC-site and thought that the 'Conceal Spellcasting' , 'Shrouded Dance' and 'Swift Concentration' skilltricks could be nice (although i don't have the book).
Especially the 'Group Fake-Out' could be really nice when making use of your 'cloaked spellcasting' ability....although less usefull when you're 'invisible' (starting from 4th level). On the other hand, casting 'invisiblity' every other round (because you become visible, when attacking) is rundown.
Any fresh ideas?
I have updated the handbook with what i thought to be good for Beguiler. I add a skill tricks section and updated the Prestige class section.
I play a human Beguiler in a game. I am now Beguiler 5/Minbender 1 with those feats: Mindsight, 2x enchantment focus and Open Mind. Open Mind could be seen as "get 2 tricks + 1 ranks". We play an Emerald claw group in Eberron.
But the Beguiler style of play is really set with the skill you choose. I play a lot with Disguise and Sleight of Hand. I never impersonnate myself. I were a gang leader , a warforged, a vampire, a Morgrave University archeologist, ... Even my group doesn't know who I am really. So the Interaction skills is really handy for me.
I often use Sleight of Hand for putting incriminant thing in pocket of my ennemy. I often use Forgery for crafting law paper, roght of passage, undead permit, ... so I use more my skills than my spells. It's the way at low level but I don't know if my spell will be more important at high level.
I don't combat. I already shot some arrow but it is negligable. When we adventure, i am mostly hidden from my group (and the monster too). My team get all the problems before me. Sometime I helped them with a few spells (thanks to Hide or Conceal spellcasting trick) like illusion or make them invisible while i am invisible...
The spell i have casted the most time are conceal alignement (we are all evil) so its an easy going in Flammekeep, Thrane. Disguise on other is really helpful for bringing undead in...
I am tempted by the Uncanny Trickster and will probably go in this class at level 9 (because it is the minimum level you can get in without the "2 tricks feats"...
So it's my experience. Any advice or comment?
You can get into it without multicalssing at all, meaning no loss in caster level(minus the first level of LD itself)
You are already playing a roguey character, why not have evasion/imp ev to go along? So the 2 of the 3 spontanious castings you already have, so what? I personally love the great eyesight. Not to metion bardic knowledge which i always find useful. Knowledge is power and all that. ANd you dont lose skill points!
SO what am i missing? Is a Loredelver worth it for a Beguiler?
I was thinking the same thing. However it doesn't have any of the Shadow spells. You would have to get those via feat or Advanced Learning.
If you want to get into Shadowcraft mage without spending any advanced learning or feats to get shadow spells of 4th level or higher you can wait until you are level 12, in which you have Shadow Walk which is a shadow spell. This is a bit better of an option if you're starting out at higher level and want to save your advanced learning for something else/don't want to PrC to delay the advanced learning.
Mindbender 1 + Mindsight (LoM) allows you to target any sentient creatures within 100 feet and you know their “type.”
Target? No. It allows you to know they are there. You lack line of sight as the feat says. It also says they gain any bonuses against you as it normally would but you know it's there.
So i was looking through Races of Destiny, and i saw the Loredelver. Im sure im missing something, but why is this class not in the Handbook? It seems great!
You can get into it without multicalssing at all, meaning no loss in caster level(minus the first level of LD itself)
You are already playing a roguey character, why not have evasion/imp ev to go along? So the 2 of the 3 spontanious castings you already have, so what? I personally love the great eyesight. Not to metion bardic knowledge which i always find useful. Knowledge is power and all that. ANd you dont lose skill points!
SO what am i missing? Is a Loredelver worth it for a Beguiler?
Yes you are right! Thanks, i will update the Handbook.
Yes you are right! Thanks, i will update the Handbook.
We have an Illumain Beguiler 7/ Loredelver 10/ Loremaster 3 in our current campaign and he has proven to be very useful and capable of handling himself in- and outside of combat. He's our substitute rogue, skill-mokey and enchanter/illusionist and he can handle all those tasks quite well... So, yeah, Loredelver is really a great PrC for a Beguiler.
Cheers,
Inkubus
PS: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but the rod of shadowblending from Complete Mage is just great...
PS: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but the rod of shadowblending from Complete Mage is just great...
changing your illusions into shadow: that's a great tip. Thanks!
I have made a table that orders the Beguilers spells on one side in "illusions" "enchantments" and "others", and on the other side in "caster level dependent", "DC dependent, "both" or "un-based". But I just can’t seem to get the boards to post it right...
But, for a quick reference I have made this list of spells that are DC-dependent, and thus earn from the Spell focus feats:
0 level:
Illusion:
Ghost Sound
Ench:
Daze
1 Level
Illusion:
Colour Spray
Silent Image
Ench:
Charm Person
Hypnotism
Sleep
Whelm
2 Level
Illusion:
Blinding Colour Surge
Minor Image
Misdirection
Silence
Vertigo
Ench:
Daze Monster
Whelming Blast
3 Level
Illusion:
Vertigo Field (fort)
Ench:
Deep Slumber
Hold Person
Inevitable Defeat
Suggestion
Hesitate
4 Level
Illusion:
Rainbow Pattern
Phantom Battle
Ench:
Charm Monster
Confusion
Crushing Despair
Whelm, Mass
5 Level
Illusion:
Friend to Foe
Seeming
Ench:
Dominate Person
Feeblemind
Hold Monster
Incite Riot
Mind Fog
6 Level
Illusion:
Mislead
Veil
Ench:
Suggestion, Mass
Overwhelm
7 Level
Illusion:
Project Image
Ench:
Hold Person, Mass
8 Level
Illusion:
Screen
Ench:
Demand
9 Level
Illusion:
-none-
Ench:
Dominate Monster
Hold Monster, Mass
Gives something to thing about...
And a note on races:
If you plan on taking either Spell Focus feat your better off taking a +2 Int elf (or other race), it will give you the same DC and skill pt. boost (possible more) and the other elf boni – off course with the price of -2 con and "the elf style"...
Good guide by the way, it deserves some comments on items I think.
Anders
I would go with something like:
Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Beguiler 10/ E. Master 4
I would not loss progression to later in the game. Alternatively if you are going epic, you could wait until then. You get another bonus metamagic feat every 3, another high level spell, and a new spell list every 4.
You could pony up some extra dough and increase the cost of the veil of allure by 1.5 and put it into an unassociated item slot, like say:
Kneepads of Allure
Oh yes, no one would be able to resist those enchantments.
That's great... just don't play a prostitute, but then again...
Check out "Legion of Sentinals": It can place 16 sentinals on the map each doing 1d8+3 at 10th lvl. If you can get a trip off on a large foe and it stands this spell could do 12D8+36 per in a single round.
Thats a nice spell when combined with a tripper. You can put up the spell and Goad a foe into running through it. Glitterdust on top of it will increase its ability to hit while also improving the chance of tripping a foe. Also you may be able to overlap it with itself. This spell might turn out to be a new fav of mine.
What Advanced Learning spells are a good idea for 1st and 4th level? I'm making a Beguiler 7/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 2 (hopefully getting more levels!). I delayed advanced learning with Mindbender, so I need a good 1st level spell and a good 4th level. So far, I've got Friendly Face at 1st level (bonus to diplomacy, but this character's really not a diplomancer, so I'd kind of prefer something else) and Illusory Wall (the campaign involves building and maintaining a town, so I figured such walls would be useful).
JaronK
If you take the Shadow Weave feat then a 1 level dip into Shadow Adept gets you three feats , including one that gives you +4 to overcome spell resistance that explicitely stacts with spell penetration and greater spell penetration.
This is a very good suggestion.
You'll fit the prereq's very easy, since it only requires you the 'Shadow Weave feat ' (a blessing on it's own) and a metamagic feat, which you get at 5th level: 'silent spell'.
The returns are grand: 3 very usefull feats:
insidious magic: other caster must make casterlevel-check to 'see' or 'reveal' you enchantments/aura: especially usefull when you are invisible and your opponent casts 'see invisibility'
persistant magic: +4 to overcome SR
tenacious magic: other caster must make a dispellcheck of DC 15+your level to dispell your spells
PS: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but the rod of shadowblending from Complete Mage is just great...
Indeed ! Good find !
I don't suppose it allows you to cast Shadow Evocation before you can cast lvl 5 spells ?
As usual the wording is not too clear, but it would be absurd...Oh, and thanks for the guide ! Y'all did a great job !
Check out "Legion of Sentinals": It can place 16 sentinals on the map each doing 1d8+3 at 10th lvl. If you can get a trip off on a large foe and it stands this spell could do 12D8+36 per in a single round.
How'd you get 16? I only counted 12, don't diagonal squares count as 7.5 ft?
As an aside....Invisibility + LoS with Widen Spell = 40 Soldiers a round, while you remain completely hidden.
I don't suppose it allows you to cast Shadow Evocation before you can cast lvl 5 spells ?
Actually :
Response (Sam S.) - 03/06/2007 01:12 PM
Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support.
There is no minimum level requirement to use this item, nor do you already have to have those spells in your repertoire or even your spell list. You can just get the better spell effect instead of the lesser spell you just cast. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask!
Take Care and Good Gaming! * *
So that is really great for any low- to mid-level beguiler. Actually I am sure people will find creative ways to abuse the fact it lets you cast a 4th level spell at level 4.
A 4th level spell which in turn gives you access to a good number of conjurations level 1-2-3...
edit: mmh, you could take Shadowcraft Mage at level 5 already...
You could get firepower thru one of the Domains (fire, cold) business no?
Couldn't you also use the Killer Gnome/Shadowcraft strategy and use some of the Reserve feats to boost your level of illusion spells to make Shadow Evocation/Conjuration more viable?
Just some thoughts....
You could also do a similear thing without eartpower via arcane thesis and other metareducing feats, only issue is you can't mimic 9th level spells, but thats ok really I don't plan on getting to level 18...
Want I want to know by RAW does the rod allow you to qualify for the PrC?
I'm afraid I am not a RAW lawyer, so I wouldn't know. I just imagined somebody around those boards would find a way to make it work. But I doubt it would pass muster with most DMs anyway...
1. Improved Initiative
3. Spell Focus (Enchantment)
6. Spell Focus (Illusion)
9. Spectral Skirmisher
12. Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
15. Greater Spell Focus (Illusion)
18. Arcane Thesis (any you like)
Only you can't take Spectral Skirmisher until 11. level since it requires a BAB of +6... BTW, if you want Spectral Skirmisher then why not take Sidestep as well?
Here's what's going on right now.
We started out at level 3 for the campaign. I had two character flaws approved right off the bat. The two flaws were noncombatant, and the one that gives a -1 to your AC.
Very weak flaws that barely did anything to my character at all.
Well, I took spell focus for both Enchantment and Illusion, and took Combat Expertise and Improved Feint.
Thus far, it's been a blast. I'm almost at level 5 now, and my character has gotten TONS of respect from his peers.
I took a Grey Elf for my race, so I have a 20 Int score currently.
This, combined with the cloaked casting, and the spell focus, are okay, but it seems that everyone makes their saves ALL THE TIME.
So I read this guide, and I saw the idea for the Vow of Nonviolence.
My plan right now is to turn in my spell focus (illusion) at level 5 for Sacred Vow, and then my spell focus (enchantment) at level 6 for Vow of NV.
My character was recently relegated to Chaotic Good, since I seem to be the only player that doesn't think a coup de grace on a thief is terribly honorable.
Is it a good idea at this point to just take these feats? I was going to take Leadership at level 6, because we could use a front line fighter, and I was going to get a Duskblade Cohort to help me out, so I don't think dishing out damage is going to be an issue. But the vow of nonviolence worries me. Is the Beguiler really capable at later levels of dishing out damage, or is this a good idea to become nonviolent, and focus on getting other people to do my dirty work for me?
Also, although not a Beguiler question, would the Vow keep people from being able to get sneak attacks, flanking attacks without taking the -1 penalty?
The purpose of the Beguiler Player's Guide is not so much to concentrate on builds, but rather on features and options that a beguiler can use to enhance the class abilities. Next on my "to do" list is to expand the discussion on combat tactics; please join in.
-A
As it stands it would seem that the surprise casting (the one you get at level 2 not level 6) is completely redundant. If my reading of the text is correct it is effectively exactly the same for anyone who is feinting. The only difference I could find (to normal feinting) was that it also applies to spell casting. Even this seems completely pointless! If your delivering a touch spell don't you have to make a touch ATTACK roll? In which case the opponent loses his dex if feinted normally (by a non-beguiler) It may be handy if it denied the dex bonus to their save but most of the Beguilers spells are will saves. I can see the ability at level 6 being useful but it seems that you could leave this ability (the level 2 bit at least) out of the Beguiler and it wouldn't make to much difference, it just seems like normal feinting, which (unless I'm mistaken) anyone can do. This leads me to believe that there is actually a misprint in describing the surprise casting abiltity. This is further backed up later on in the Beguiler text by the implication that surprise casting is something you can do as a result of feinting, not the actual feinting itself.
And I quote (Pg 9 PHB II):
"If you get into melee, use the Bluff skill to feint in combat and thus get the drop on your enemy with cloaked casting or surprised casting"
So you feint in combat and deny your enemy his bonus to dex THEN use cloaked casting OR surprise casting to give yourself a bonus. This is how I read it which to me implies that there is something more to the surprise casting ability.
Maybe I'm missing something completely obvious but either they might as well not print that you get surprise casting till 6th level or actually explain to us what its really meant to do at its lower levels.
Any insights would be appreciated, besides that gotta say I love the class!
When the heck (hell for all you non-americans [joke...please, no flames]) is someone who actually enjoys roleplaying and loves D&D going to buy this franchise off Wizards. Sureley it couldn't be that hard to employ proof readers and game testers, heck, I'd do it for food and board! I'm sure theres been a million and one rants about WoTC's lack of commitement to D&D but let me just say, if there are any millionaires out there who love role playing PLEASE BUY D&D OFF WoTC. If I ever become rich, then look out Wizards ;)
Anyways thats enough off topic ranting, beguile on fellow adventurers!
Lemual, at 2nd level, Surprise Casting is normal feinting. I believe Wizards included it in the class feature just to remind us that we can feint. Is Wizards insulting our intelligence? Maybe. Bad editing? That's much more likely.
this is something we already discussed in the other beguiler handbook:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=805782
(I think on page 10-11 or something)
the consecsus was that it is indeed a bit flimsy to spend a entire round feinting (standard action) in order to (possibly) get a +1 DC on your spells, but that it could really matter at lower levels.
despite this consensus, I have never ever used it untill now (I'm 4th almost 5th level). Mostly since:
a) It doens't fit the beguiler thematically to enter melee
b) you can much better try to Hide and get the +1 DC from cloaked casting (hiding is safer too).
Had some help in another forum and found a way to make a Beg/JPM work in synergy with the fire class abilities. Requires the Use of a Bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium, but works.
Quote:Bloodline feats are designed with sorcerers in mind, however any character who meets the preq can choose them.
Fire Bloodline only has 'Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation' as its preq. Yes Beguliers and Warmages can take 'em.
So the Build of the Beguiler/JPM looks like this.
Human
Lvl BAB Feats/Special
Beg1 0 Armoured Mage,Trapfinding,Sudden Maximise,
Fire Bloodline,Combat Casting, Practised Spellcaster
Warb1 1 Battle Clarity,Wpn Aptitude
Beg2 2 Cloaked Cast,Surprise Cast, Battle Caster
Beg3 2 Advanced Learning
Beg4 3
Beg5 3 Silent Spell, Energy Substitution (cold)
Beg6 4 Surprise Casting (move action)
JPM1 5 Arcane Wrath,rite of waking
JPM2 6 Mystic Phoenix Stance, Martial Study
(shield block)
JPM3 7
JPM4 8 Empowering Strike
JPM5 9 Martial Stance- Thicket of Blades
JPM6 10 Firebird Stance, Jade Phoenix Master
JPM7 11
JPM8 12 QuickeningStrike,Martial Study-Rallying Strike
JPM9 13
JPM10 14 Emerald Immolation
AbChp 1 15 Abjurant Armour, Extended Abj,
Martial Study-Castigating Strike
AC2 16 Swift Abj
AC3 17
Manuvere Selection:
Char lvl 2 Steel Wind, Steely Strike,Leading the Attack,Hunter Sense
Lvl 8 Deathmark
Lvl 9 Feat-shieldblock
Lvl 10 Fire Reposte
Lvl 12 Leaping Flame, Holocost Cloak, Feat-Thicket of Blades
Lvl 14 Ring of Fire
Lvl 15 Feat- Rallying Strike
Lvl 16 Salamander Charge
Lvl 18 Feat- Castigating Strike
As you can see it would have BAB 17 by lvl 20. 8th level spellcasting and 7th level manuvers. Still a great trapmonkey. If you are prepared for the hit to skill points you could also dump Able Learner for the TOB feat that lest you add +1 to your illusion DC.
Not sure if I'm allowed to retype the Fire bloodline spell list- but it includes Delayed Blast Fireball (unfortunately no fireball-just tongues but I'm working with the DM on this. We normally don't alter stuff).
There's nothing that specifically ties the two Shadow spells to levels 4 and 5. The Beguiler list itself already contains spells that differ in spell level from other lists (Zone of Silence, for example).
It's still a great find though! Especially useful since the level 2 and 3 slots lack good offensive spells. Now to get my hands on one! And rethink my level 11 Advanced Learning :o
Which reminds me... The Enchanter's Handbook should probably be linked to in this handbook. It's very helpful to beguilers as well.
You don't get the bard spells list when you gain Prestige Bard level... It doesn't work .
sorry...we're a good idea
Just to make sure info in the thread is correct, you do gain bard-only spells.
[QUOTE=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm
]Unique Spells
The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.
Best,
David
I responded to another poster earlier who had asked about the Beguilers ability to do 50+ points of damage per round for a 10 round encounter at lvl 10. Well a look at the Beguilers spells brought me a bit of a surprise.
Check out "Legion of Sentinals": It can place 16 sentinals on the map each doing 1d8+3 at 10th lvl. If you can get a trip off on a large foe and it stands this spell could do 12D8+36 per in a single round.
Thats a nice spell when combined with a tripper. You can put up the spell and Goad a foe into running through it. Glitterdust on top of it will increase its ability to hit while also improving the chance of tripping a foe. Also you may be able to overlap it with itself. This spell might turn out to be a new fav of mine.
I can't access the link here, but I still have a question. How can you deal a lot of damage (or at least any amount of damage that will be usefull in combat) considering that the beguiller doesn't have sneak attack?
TRICK them! Enchant them! Suddenly you don't need to do damage. I also have a rod of shadowblending for when I need to open up the pain (Which is very rarely once again)
I am currently level 7 and recently we were walking through a dessert (Known for attracting stray constructs without masters) and we come across a clay golem so we had a party of level 7's and one or 2 level 8's and that would have destroyed us except for silent image... We then walked away and it didn't follow.
CR 10 encounter downed with a single 1st level spell...
Beguiler 1/ Wizard Illusionist 4/ Ultimate Magus 1
or
Beguiler 4/ Wizard Ilussionist 1/Ultimate Magus 1
Eventually I would like to go Shadow Craft Mage
LucRivnor the OP hasn't been using this HB for over a year now. I've taken over in The New Beguiler Handbook - 2008. If you want to share your thoughts, go right ahead.
To comments on damage: it indeed has it's uses againts undead/oozes/plants/constructs and swarms without a hivemind. I give plenty of hints on that in my HB.
All the best!
NtP