Beguiler Spell list limitations - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Beguiler Spell list limitations

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
hallack
Jul 21, 2008 15:57:52 Okay, so many of us really like the Beguiler class. It's just a great all round skill and ability set!

I like them enough myself that I am half hoping that a character in one of the games I play may die to give me the opportunity to play one hehe.

But, my desire to play one is not the issue here

Spell research however is the point. Arcane and divine sorts can learn spells as they find them but they can also develop them through research.

Is there any reason why a Beguiler would not be allowed to create new spells for his lists via research as a wizard is able?

Oh sure, they probably should not be allowed to create fireballish or Lighting boltish spells but what about the huge realms of other enchantment, illusion, and other types of spells that would be thematic.

Perhaps, they should not be allowed research simply to keep them limited. But, we all know that had PHBII come out before most of the Complete series there would likely be more than a few added spells already.
#2
rebel7284
Jul 21, 2008 16:14:42 Spell research is of course optional. If I was the DM, I would let your research other spells. However, remember that the DM is the final arbiter on the level of the spell and its exact wording and if the research is successful at all. Therefore you can probably justify getting spells that you want, but expect them to be higher level spells if they don't fall into the usual enchantment/illusion list. Fireball as a level 6 spell is probably OK for example.
#3
amadithegreat
Jul 21, 2008 17:42:29 *Sigh* the greatest loss on Beguiler in my opinion, is the lack of mage hand in the spell list. That's extremely useful spell in my opinion, and would fit thematically. Also, it would allow them to qualify for Arcane Trickster.
#4
soulsword
Jul 21, 2008 18:08:55 I agree with Rebel here. It isn't unreasonable to research more spells for your beguiler. Your DM might disagree with me and Rebel, though, so don't expect any bonus spells at all unless you talk to your DM. If your DM does give you permission, start by introducing spells from other books into the class. One thing that me and Rebel disagree on, though, is the type of spells you should ask for.

While it would be stupid to say that an evocation spell or two would unbalance the class, it isn't exactly on theme. If you want spells like fireball, hold out for afew levels and take shadow evocation. You really shouldn't try to talk your DM into letting you take spells like that, because it will just make them think that you are being unreasonable. Instead, make sure that any bonus spells that you introduce are on theme. If it is an environment controlling spell, a motion enhancing spell, or an illusion/ enchantment, you have good for adding that spell to your list. If you still aren't satisfied, try to invent new illusion and enchantment spells.

My only uncertainty is why this was posted on char op...? Well, I can only assume that you want us to show you how to pump up a beguiler's spell list without going to your DM. Heres a good one, if you plan on going epic. Depending on the level that you are playing to, a rainbow servant would allow you to add all the non evil cleric spells to your list, but it would also ensure that you wouldn't get your 9th level spells until level 22. Just imagine, though... all the cleric spells, all the beguiler spells, all cast spontaneously... oh, wait, I forgot something! lets throw in some spontaneous domain casting, since you will be casting cure spontaneously anyway due to the levels in beguiler anyway!

If you are going epic and you take this idea, remember to persuade your DM to allow you to give you all those extra spells before you take RS10 so that you can get more beguiler spells before you add most of the cleric spell list to your beguiler list. It is one of the best beguiler ideas you can find. The biggest problem is the level you need.
#5
amadithegreat
Jul 21, 2008 18:33:47 Rainbow Servant doesn't slow down your spell progression, text trumps table and it reads that it increases it at each level.
#6
hallack
Jul 22, 2008 11:49:49 Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I started to put caveats about DM allowances and approval in my OP as such I think are necessary for most good games.

Being Thematic with Beguiler's role of course would be important. As DM if someone wanted to turn the beguiler into a blaster or summoner for example I'd probably direct them to the classes that already fill those roles. Party composition and need for other spells should also be a consideration.

Mostly the post was to get feedback on the limitations of the list as it's limits are certainly central to the class both in balance and in play.

As to why this was posted in the Char Op... couple reasons really.

The level of thought and content I have seen in these forums are generally above what I have seen in many places. Thus, I posting here to encourage thoughtful discussion of the character implications involved with spell research in regards to the Beguiler. Considered posting in one of the beguiler books but didn't want to clutter them.

And for something like a beguiler what better way to optimize than reasonably expanding it's spell list.

Note: Not looking for methods to break the class or even interested in the possibility of using research to do so but to use it to help the beguiler further fill it's niche. After all there are a lot of nice beguilerish spells in the various splat books that could probably be added without breaking the class or stepping on other classes toes too much.

Again, thanks all.
#7
hallack
Jul 22, 2008 12:00:18 Grrr, double post secondary to server issues.
#8
womblehunter
Jul 23, 2008 10:54:38 Although you could research new spells, you won't be able to add them to your spells known list without some mechanism that explicitly allows you to do so. Sorcerers are the same - they can research a new spell, but if they don't spend one of their spells known slots on it when they level up, they can't cast it.

The problem with Beguilers is that it's more difficult to get spells on their known list. Advanced Learning gets them an Illusion or Enchantment spell (IIRC, might just be one of those schools). If your DM allows a similar alternative class feature for Warmages from the PHB2 for your Beguiler, then Eclectic Learning can get you a spell of any school, but of one level higher than it should be.

Again with the DM's blessing, you could use Extra Spell to add it.

There are also a few PrC class features, some of which have been mentioned. Ultimate Magus?
#9
xoraxx
Jul 23, 2008 12:41:27
*Sigh* the greatest loss on Beguiler in my opinion, is the lack of mage hand in the spell list. That's extremely useful spell in my opinion, and would fit thematically. Also, it would allow them to qualify for Arcane Trickster.

Little off-topic but Beguilers can enter Arcane Trickster by taking the Spell Hand feat from Complete Arcane.
#10
amadithegreat
Jul 23, 2008 14:32:04
Little off-topic but Beguilers can enter Arcane Trickster by taking the Spell Hand feat from Complete Arcane.

Yes, so can warlocks. Still, it needs a feat that shouldn't be needed, I see little to no reason why beguiler couldn't cast mage hand. It is very useful for thieves after all. (It is NEEDED for thief/wizard PrC, which is thematically along the same lines as beguiler is.). It should be already on the spell-list.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 hallack Jul 21, 2008 15:57:52	Okay, so many of us really like the Beguiler class. It's just a great all round skill and ability set! I like them enough myself that I am half hoping that a character in one of the games I play may die to give me the opportunity to play one hehe. But, my desire to play one is not the issue here Spell research however is the point. Arcane and divine sorts can learn spells as they find them but they can also develop them through research. Is there any reason why a Beguiler would not be allowed to create new spells for his lists via research as a wizard is able? Oh sure, they probably should not be allowed to create fireballish or Lighting boltish spells but what about the huge realms of other enchantment, illusion, and other types of spells that would be thematic. Perhaps, they should not be allowed research simply to keep them limited. But, we all know that had PHBII come out before most of the Complete series there would likely be more than a few added spells already.
#2 rebel7284 Jul 21, 2008 16:14:42	Spell research is of course optional. If I was the DM, I would let your research other spells. However, remember that the DM is the final arbiter on the level of the spell and its exact wording and if the research is successful at all. Therefore you can probably justify getting spells that you want, but expect them to be higher level spells if they don't fall into the usual enchantment/illusion list. Fireball as a level 6 spell is probably OK for example.
#3 amadithegreat Jul 21, 2008 17:42:29	Sigh the greatest loss on Beguiler in my opinion, is the lack of mage hand in the spell list. That's extremely useful spell in my opinion, and would fit thematically. Also, it would allow them to qualify for Arcane Trickster.
#4 soulsword Jul 21, 2008 18:08:55	I agree with Rebel here. It isn't unreasonable to research more spells for your beguiler. Your DM might disagree with me and Rebel, though, so don't expect any bonus spells at all unless you talk to your DM. If your DM does give you permission, start by introducing spells from other books into the class. One thing that me and Rebel disagree on, though, is the type of spells you should ask for. While it would be stupid to say that an evocation spell or two would unbalance the class, it isn't exactly on theme. If you want spells like fireball, hold out for afew levels and take shadow evocation. You really shouldn't try to talk your DM into letting you take spells like that, because it will just make them think that you are being unreasonable. Instead, make sure that any bonus spells that you introduce are on theme. If it is an environment controlling spell, a motion enhancing spell, or an illusion/ enchantment, you have good for adding that spell to your list. If you still aren't satisfied, try to invent new illusion and enchantment spells. My only uncertainty is why this was posted on char op...? Well, I can only assume that you want us to show you how to pump up a beguiler's spell list without going to your DM. Heres a good one, if you plan on going epic. Depending on the level that you are playing to, a rainbow servant would allow you to add all the non evil cleric spells to your list, but it would also ensure that you wouldn't get your 9th level spells until level 22. Just imagine, though... all the cleric spells, all the beguiler spells, all cast spontaneously... oh, wait, I forgot something! lets throw in some spontaneous domain casting, since you will be casting cure spontaneously anyway due to the levels in beguiler anyway! If you are going epic and you take this idea, remember to persuade your DM to allow you to give you all those extra spells before you take RS10 so that you can get more beguiler spells before you add most of the cleric spell list to your beguiler list. It is one of the best beguiler ideas you can find. The biggest problem is the level you need.
#5 amadithegreat Jul 21, 2008 18:33:47	Rainbow Servant doesn't slow down your spell progression, text trumps table and it reads that it increases it at each level.
#6 hallack Jul 22, 2008 11:49:49	Thanks for the feedback everyone. I started to put caveats about DM allowances and approval in my OP as such I think are necessary for most good games. Being Thematic with Beguiler's role of course would be important. As DM if someone wanted to turn the beguiler into a blaster or summoner for example I'd probably direct them to the classes that already fill those roles. Party composition and need for other spells should also be a consideration. Mostly the post was to get feedback on the limitations of the list as it's limits are certainly central to the class both in balance and in play. As to why this was posted in the Char Op... couple reasons really. The level of thought and content I have seen in these forums are generally above what I have seen in many places. Thus, I posting here to encourage thoughtful discussion of the character implications involved with spell research in regards to the Beguiler. Considered posting in one of the beguiler books but didn't want to clutter them. And for something like a beguiler what better way to optimize than reasonably expanding it's spell list. Note: Not looking for methods to break the class or even interested in the possibility of using research to do so but to use it to help the beguiler further fill it's niche. After all there are a lot of nice beguilerish spells in the various splat books that could probably be added without breaking the class or stepping on other classes toes too much. Again, thanks all.
#7 hallack Jul 22, 2008 12:00:18	Grrr, double post secondary to server issues.
#8 womblehunter Jul 23, 2008 10:54:38	Although you could research new spells, you won't be able to add them to your spells known list without some mechanism that explicitly allows you to do so. Sorcerers are the same - they can research a new spell, but if they don't spend one of their spells known slots on it when they level up, they can't cast it. The problem with Beguilers is that it's more difficult to get spells on their known list. Advanced Learning gets them an Illusion or Enchantment spell (IIRC, might just be one of those schools). If your DM allows a similar alternative class feature for Warmages from the PHB2 for your Beguiler, then Eclectic Learning can get you a spell of any school, but of one level higher than it should be. Again with the DM's blessing, you could use Extra Spell to add it. There are also a few PrC class features, some of which have been mentioned. Ultimate Magus?
#9 xoraxx Jul 23, 2008 12:41:27	Sigh the greatest loss on Beguiler in my opinion, is the lack of mage hand in the spell list. That's extremely useful spell in my opinion, and would fit thematically. Also, it would allow them to qualify for Arcane Trickster. Little off-topic but Beguilers can enter Arcane Trickster by taking the Spell Hand feat from Complete Arcane.
#10 amadithegreat Jul 23, 2008 14:32:04	Little off-topic but Beguilers can enter Arcane Trickster by taking the Spell Hand feat from Complete Arcane. Yes, so can warlocks. Still, it needs a feat that shouldn't be needed, I see little to no reason why beguiler couldn't cast mage hand. It is very useful for thieves after all. (It is NEEDED for thief/wizard PrC, which is thematically along the same lines as beguiler is.). It should be already on the spell-list.