I'm just looking for general advice. all would be appreciated. I've already read nicholas the paladin's amazing beguiler handbook and generally agree with his advice.
thanks.
), it's awful. Shadow dancer doesn't advance spellcasting, by far the most powerful ability the beguiler has. As an example: you'll get into shadowdancer from level 8 onwards (need 10 skillranks in hide). If you take 10 levels of shadowdancer, you can shadowjump (teleport) up to 160 feet per day when you're level 17. Yeah. The straight beguiler walks through other dimensions, blinds and paralyzes creatures with but a word and deals (nonleathal) damage to creatures equal to their hitpoints. One level later, the beguiler stops time, looks into the future and kills creatures with but a word (no save). I hope this illustrates the difference in power.
Besides not advancing spellcasting, the shadowdancer really doesn't do that much. It has flavour, I'll give you that, but no spells, no extra damage, no abilities that distinguish it or make it suitable for a certain role. Except for skillmonkey, but a beguiler is a skillmonkey already, so that's no reason to take it. Besides, dodge & mobility? Bleargh, definitely for a caster.
My sincere advise woulde be to decide what it is in the flavour of the shadowdancer that you like, and then find another (and better) way to get that.
don't worry about being blunt, there was no harm done
it's why I made this thread. for all my book research, my actual gameplay experience is limited. it's why I made the thread. I would greatly appreciate further insights is there any prestige class that's any good for beguilers?
The first level of the Mindbender PrC.
The board's code is malfunctioning.
Shadowcraft Mage is astonishingly good. It's ...
FTFY
Shadowcraft Mage is astonishingly good for Beguilers. It's from Races of Stone. If you're not a gnome, see if you can use the adaptation section. Be warned: it is so good, it is likely to be banned by the DM. With Heighten Spell, a beguiler/SCM could cast any wizard/sorcerer spell from the Conjuration (Creation or Summoning) or Evocation schools spontaneously. They'd be limited to spells one level lower than their max, unless they also took Versatile Spellcaster or Earth Spell (and with both, they could emulate spells 1 level above their normal max spell level...).
that sounds very cool. I'll ask my DM. I like that idea too, I had been looking at taking shadow evocation and shadow conjuration as some of my advanced learning powers to duplicate conjuration and evocation powers of the corresponding level, which I think sounds pretty handy.
is there any prestige class that's any good for beguilers?
The first level of the Mindbender PrC.
The board's code is malfunctioning.Shadowcraft Mage is astonishingly good. It's ...
FTFY
oo, mindbender does sound good. it's too bad that spellcasting advancement only kicks in every other level though.
if my dm let me have the +1 arcane spellcasting as a shadowdancer, would that be worth it? I considered shadowdancer principally for its hide in plain sight ability, which would be very useful.
thank you, everybody, this is helping a lot
I'm playing as a human beguiler currently, and am looking to become a shadowdancer. currently, I'm at level 1. I've got Combat Casting and Combat Reflexes and am of course planning for Mobility and Dodge for my next two feats to meet the shadowdancer prerequisites. what sorts of feats might I look at in the future? what spells might be good to take for my advanced learning feature? is shadowdancer a good prC for a human beguiler?
I'm just looking for general advice. all would be appreciated. I've already read nicholas the paladin's amazing beguiler handbook and generally agree with his advice.
thanks.
If you do it I will murder you. Go along with the advice and go for a level of Mindbender. After, maybe you should check out the Rainbow Servant prestige class.
Anyways, is this game already started? I assume so, but just in case you're not, you could do this:
Race: Gnome
Beguiler 6/Mindbender 1/Beguiler +8/Shadowcraft Mage 5
Feats
1 - Spell Focus (illusion)
3 - open Feat slot
6 - Heighten Spell
9 - Mindsight (Lords of Madness, pg. 126)
12 - Earth Sense
15 - Earth Spell
18 - open Feat slot
I recommended the Mindbender level at level 7 to push back Advanced Learning a spell level, so you can grab some of the shadow x spells. Earth Spell is cheese for Shadowcraft Mage. If you look over the Shadowcraft Mage Handbook you'll get more information about that.
But to reiterate what everyone else has said, Shadowdancer is not intended for spellcasters. You'd be best to avoid it.
If you do it I will murder you. Go along with the advice and go for a level of Mindbender. After, maybe you should check out the Rainbow Servant prestige class.
that seems a bit harsh. how does one use telepathy in the game? I think that's all that mindbender offers besides the +2 to fort and will.
Honestly, if you're playing a Beguiler, multiclassing as whole is a bit wasted. There aren't many classes (including Prestige Classes) that make it better than what it can already do. That said, One level of Mindbender and Shadowcraft Mage are mostly the exceptions to the rule. Dandu mentioned Rainbow Servant, which I would agree with... as long as your DM follows the errata that "text trumps tables." That's official errata so I wouldn't see why they wouldn't. but still something to watch for.
Anyways, is this game already started? I assume so, but just in case you're not, you could do this:
Race: Gnome
Beguiler 6/Mindbender 1/Beguiler +8/Shadowcraft Mage 5
Feats
1 - Spell Focus (illusion)
3 - open Feat slot
6 - Heighten Spell
9 - Mindsight (Lords of Madness, pg. 126)
12 - Earth Sense
15 - Earth Spell
18 - open Feat slot
I recommended the Mindbender level at level 7 to push back Advanced Learning a spell level, so you can grab some of the shadow x spells. Earth Spell is cheese for Shadowcraft Mage. If you look over the Shadowcraft Mage Handbook you'll get more information about that.
But to reiterate what everyone else has said, Shadowdancer is not intended for spellcasters. You'd be best to avoid it.
what does "text trumps tables" mean?
the game is started, but I'm joining another campaign next week and I'll be using the same character, but starting at level 4. thanks for the advice, everybody
Telepathy lets you qualify for Mindsight (a feat from Lords of Madness), which is basically freakin' radar against anything with an int of 3 or higher. It is pretty much impossible to hide from it.
cool! I looked it up in Lords of Madness and it'll even work against creatures with an intelligence of 1 or higher!
that's just great
I can't wait to use it. thank you for explaining. Race: Gnome
Alignment: Any nongood (You're a Beguiler. Why would you wanna be good anyways?)
Requirements: Con 13, Wis 13, Int 10+ (Honestly, you need at least a 19 by 18th level anyways),
Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 12 (at level 9)
1. Beguiler 1 - Spell Focus (illusion)
2. Beguiler 2
3. Beguiler 3 (advanced learning: no preference) - Heighten Spell
4. Beguiler 4
5. Beguiler 5 - Silent Spell (Beguiler bonus)
6. Beguiler 6 - Earth Sense (Races of Stone)
7. Mindbender 1
8. Beguiler 7
9. Beguiler 8 (advanced learning: shadow conjuration) - Rapid Metamagic (Complete Mage)
10. Beguiler 9
11. Beguiler 10 - Still Spell (Beguiler bonus)
12. Beguiler 11 (advanced learning: shadow evocation) - Earth Spell (Races of Stone)
13. Shadowcraft Mage 1
14. Shadowcraft Mage 2
15. Shadowcraft Mage 3 - Mindsight (Lords of Madness)
16. Shadowcraft Mage 4
17. Shadowcraft Mage 5
18. Beguiler 12 - Versatile Spellcaster (Races of The Dragon)
19. Beguiler 13
20. Beguiler 14
This is an illusionist-heavy Beguiler extraordinaire. Mindsight got bumped down to 15th level to get access to Rapid Metamagic, and Earth Spell got moved up because Shadowcraft Mage got moved to earlier levels as well. I also added Versatile Spellcaster.
Rapid Metamagic will allow you great potential with Earth Spell and your illusions. Versatile Spellcaster will let you do it over and over.
However, if you can afford a Wisdom score of 19 by level 18, I'd drop Versatile Spellcaster and go for Arcane Disciple to get the spells from the Luck Domain. That gets miracle added to your spell list, which you can then use for all sorts of goodies. Fluffwise, you'll have to worship a deity with the luck domain that is nongood, but there are plenty of those available. Fharlanghn and Olidammara are two options. More details here: Shadowcraft Mage Handbook
I have reworked the build, and have put it into overdrive. Here it is, level by level:
Race: Gnome
Alignment: Any nongood (You're a Beguiler. Why would you wanna be good anyways?)
Requirements: Con 13, Wis 13, Int 10+ (Honestly, you need at least a 19 by 18th level anyways),
Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Hide 4, Intimidate 4, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 12 (at level 9)
1. Beguiler 1 - Spell Focus (illusion)
2. Beguiler 2
3. Beguiler 3 (advanced learning: no preference) - Heighten Spell
4. Beguiler 4
5. Beguiler 5 - Silent Spell (Beguiler bonus)
6. Beguiler 6 - Earth Sense (Races of Stone)
7. Mindbender 1
8. Beguiler 7
9. Beguiler 8 (advanced learning: shadow conjuration) - Rapid Metamagic (Complete Mage)
10. Beguiler 9
11. Beguiler 10 - Still Spell (Beguiler bonus)
12. Beguiler 11 (advanced learning: shadow evocation) - Earth Spell (Races of Stone)
13. Shadowcraft Mage 1
14. Shadowcraft Mage 2
15. Shadowcraft Mage 3 - Mindsight (Lords of Madness)
16. Shadowcraft Mage 4
17. Shadowcraft Mage 5
18. Beguiler 12 - Versatile Spellcaster (Races of The Dragon)
19. Beguiler 13
20. Beguiler 14
This is an illusionist-heavy Beguiler extraordinaire. Mindsight got bumped down to 15th level to get access to Rapid Metamagic, and Earth Spell got moved up because Shadowcraft Mage got moved to earlier levels as well. I also added Versatile Spellcaster.
Rapid Metamagic will allow you great potential with Earth Spell and your illusions. Versatile Spellcaster will let you do it over and over.
However, if you can afford a Wisdom score of 19 by level 18, I'd drop Versatile Spellcaster and go for Arcane Disciple to get the spells from the Luck Domain. That gets miracle added to your spell list, which you can then use for all sorts of goodies. Fluffwise, you'll have to worship a deity with the luck domain that is nongood, but there are plenty of those available. Fharlanghn and Olidammara are two options. More details here: Shadowcraft Mage Handbook
wow! thank you so much
I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your build, spiral_rider_ h. it's very very helpful
the suggestion spell lets you control a creature as long as they can both
a) hear you
and
b) undertand you
since telepathy allows me to communicate with any creature that has a language, could I make telepathic suggestions ? I think it'd be particularly useful when I needed to cast it on someone I didn't share a language with. also no one would notice me casting :D
would this work?
mindbender says I need to be able to cast 5th level arcane spells.
Open your copy of the Complete Arcane and turn to the Mindbender prestige class.
Look at the prerequisites. Notice where it says "arcane caster level 5th"?
everything can go according to the plan then.