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Behold!

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
heliomance
Feb 10, 2009 9:24:19 So I've signed up for a level 25 game, and I'm trying to persuade the DM to let me play a Beholder. If successful, I will naturally go into Beholder Mage for great free-action casting fun. What should I do with the levels I have spare (custom LA rule: Ignore all LA, instead use the higher of HD and CR)? And should I go Beholder Mage 10 or Beholder Mage X/full casting PrC Y or Beholder Mage 2/Divine spellcasting class X (Ur Priest could be fun)/Mystic Theurge Y or something entirely different?
It's 36 point buy, my current thought is Beholder Mage/Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge, in which case I'll probably put my stats as 8 14 12 16 18 8, modifying to 8 18 20 22 22 12.
#2
atomickitkat
Feb 10, 2009 9:50:53 Y'know, with fast-progression casting, it almost makes True Necromancer worthwhile. Still, I'd probably go Druid >> Arcane Heirophant over Mystic Theurge, although I can see how the psuedo-atheistic fluff of the Ur-Priest can work with Beholders(even moreso with Aboleths though).
#3
heliomance
Feb 10, 2009 9:53:51 The thing about Ur-Priest is that it would get me ninth level divine spells which druid wouldn't. And wildshape isn't that attractive when my spellcasting depends on my beholder form. I can't fire spells out of my eyestalks if I don't have eyestalks now, can I?
#4
headofvecna
Feb 10, 2009 19:20:54 Either way sounds pretty good. The trade-off at the heart of the decision seems to be between having plenty of spell slots, retaining most of your eye-rays, but having a crappy CL. Or having a good CL (BM levels count double for CL), but possibly burning through even the generous BM slots quickly. If you do go the Ur-Theurge route make sure that you DM will allow you to even cast divine spells with V S and M components. Also I'd assing a decent attribute to Cha, as your remaining ray eye-stalks should not be wasted or ignored.
#5
surreal
Feb 10, 2009 20:45:59 I say you try and finagle Ultimate Magus into there.
#6
heliomance
Feb 11, 2009 2:08:33 I've got room in the build for BM 2/UP 2/MT 8, which means that all my eyestalks will have become spellstalks. Incidentally, I have ten stalks but only 9 levels of spells, unless cantrips take a stalk. Does that mean I can fire off one spell each of 1st-8th level and 2 of 9th level per round?

Also, I don't know UM that well. What would it do for the build?
#7
atomickitkat
Feb 11, 2009 4:31:21 I recall one eyestalk being for cantrips. So 1 of each from 0 to 9.
#8
PlzBreakMyCampaign
Feb 11, 2009 11:35:30 Having just let my ECL variation thread die, im interested in the take the higher of LA, HD and CR variation instead... hmm

I would also have mentioned my successful tripple 9's build (no ardent) but you start at ECL 12... ew

Also I thought the spellstalks advanced by the casting progression rather than the PrC level progression, though I might be wrong
#9
surreal
Feb 11, 2009 12:55:37
Also, I don't know UM that well. What would it do for the build?

It basically just lets you apply a bunch of "free" metamagics to a number of spells per day. Looking more closely though, I don't think it combines too well with Beholder Mage.
#10
headofvecna
Feb 11, 2009 13:15:08
I've got room in the build for BM 2/UP 2/MT 8, which means that all my eyestalks will have become spellstalks.

Generally, PrCs only progress, "spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained". The BM's wording, "Starting at 1st level, whenever a beholder mage gains the ability to cast a new level of spells, it must sacrifi ce the use of its eye rays from one of its ten small eyestalks. From then on, that eyestalk casts spells of that level and is referred to as a spell-stalk. At 10th level, all of its eyestalks are spell-stalks", might be an exception. But I wouldn't count on it without checking with your DM first.
#11
heliomance
Feb 11, 2009 15:18:45 Seeing as that is how the casting mechanic of the Beholder Mage works, it's kinda hard to argue it any other way, I feel.
#12
heliomance
Feb 12, 2009 6:52:32 Well the DM's said I can play Beholder with a +4 LA, making it ECL 15. This nixes the plan of getting ninth level divine and arcane spells via ur-priest, but does give me enough room to get full BM casting. Should I stick with my original plan and only have 7th level spells (sounds not good to me) or should I stick with straight arcane casting? If the latter, what PrCs are recommended?
#13
umopapisdn
Feb 14, 2009 10:45:21
It basically just lets you apply a bunch of "free" metamagics to a number of spells per day. Looking more closely though, I don't think it combines too well with Beholder Mage.

I think they combine pretty well - Beholder Mages cast spontaneously. That means you can pick Wizard as your prepared casting class, use the same set of spellbooks, and keep it all Int-based. Sure, there are more optimized choices, but you are already a Beholder Mage. You're not going to lose too much in terms of power or versatility, and Ultimate Magus is pretty fun.
#14
surreal
Feb 14, 2009 17:43:23 Except when you're starting off without early entry tricks, you really don't want to slow down your Beholder Mage progression at all. Ultimate Magus would need at least three levels of wizard to start off.
#15
thehumandynamo
Feb 15, 2009 6:01:06
Well the DM's said I can play Beholder with a +4 LA, making it ECL 15. This nixes the plan of getting ninth level divine and arcane spells via ur-priest, but does give me enough room to get full BM casting. Should I stick with my original plan and only have 7th level spells (sounds not good to me) or should I stick with straight arcane casting? If the latter, what PrCs are recommended?

Once you enter Beholder Mage, one level of Mindbender is a great idea for telepathy, Alienist not only offers full casting, but can fit very well thematically (though it has been criticized for lack of power), and generally any that will offer full casting progression while not requiring you to slow it down (as ultimate magus would with 3 levels of wizard needed).
#16
heliomance
Feb 16, 2009 7:18:03 What I've got at the moment is Beholder Mage 1 Divine Oracle 9. I'd forgotten about Mindbender, I might grab a level of that because Mindsight is always good. Current sheet is here. Thoughts?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 heliomance Feb 10, 2009 9:24:19	So I've signed up for a level 25 game, and I'm trying to persuade the DM to let me play a Beholder. If successful, I will naturally go into Beholder Mage for great free-action casting fun. What should I do with the levels I have spare (custom LA rule: Ignore all LA, instead use the higher of HD and CR)? And should I go Beholder Mage 10 or Beholder Mage X/full casting PrC Y or Beholder Mage 2/Divine spellcasting class X (Ur Priest could be fun)/Mystic Theurge Y or something entirely different? It's 36 point buy, my current thought is Beholder Mage/Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge, in which case I'll probably put my stats as 8 14 12 16 18 8, modifying to 8 18 20 22 22 12.
#2 atomickitkat Feb 10, 2009 9:50:53	Y'know, with fast-progression casting, it almost makes True Necromancer worthwhile. Still, I'd probably go Druid >> Arcane Heirophant over Mystic Theurge, although I can see how the psuedo-atheistic fluff of the Ur-Priest can work with Beholders(even moreso with Aboleths though).
#3 heliomance Feb 10, 2009 9:53:51	The thing about Ur-Priest is that it would get me ninth level divine spells which druid wouldn't. And wildshape isn't that attractive when my spellcasting depends on my beholder form. I can't fire spells out of my eyestalks if I don't have eyestalks now, can I?
#4 headofvecna Feb 10, 2009 19:20:54	Either way sounds pretty good. The trade-off at the heart of the decision seems to be between having plenty of spell slots, retaining most of your eye-rays, but having a crappy CL. Or having a good CL (BM levels count double for CL), but possibly burning through even the generous BM slots quickly. If you do go the Ur-Theurge route make sure that you DM will allow you to even cast divine spells with V S and M components. Also I'd assing a decent attribute to Cha, as your remaining ray eye-stalks should not be wasted or ignored.
#5 surreal Feb 10, 2009 20:45:59	I say you try and finagle Ultimate Magus into there.
#6 heliomance Feb 11, 2009 2:08:33	I've got room in the build for BM 2/UP 2/MT 8, which means that all my eyestalks will have become spellstalks. Incidentally, I have ten stalks but only 9 levels of spells, unless cantrips take a stalk. Does that mean I can fire off one spell each of 1st-8th level and 2 of 9th level per round? Also, I don't know UM that well. What would it do for the build?
#7 atomickitkat Feb 11, 2009 4:31:21	I recall one eyestalk being for cantrips. So 1 of each from 0 to 9.
#8 PlzBreakMyCampaign Feb 11, 2009 11:35:30	Having just let my ECL variation thread die, im interested in the take the higher of LA, HD and CR variation instead... hmm I would also have mentioned my successful tripple 9's build (no ardent) but you start at ECL 12... ew Also I thought the spellstalks advanced by the casting progression rather than the PrC level progression, though I might be wrong
#9 surreal Feb 11, 2009 12:55:37	Also, I don't know UM that well. What would it do for the build? It basically just lets you apply a bunch of "free" metamagics to a number of spells per day. Looking more closely though, I don't think it combines too well with Beholder Mage.
#10 headofvecna Feb 11, 2009 13:15:08	I've got room in the build for BM 2/UP 2/MT 8, which means that all my eyestalks will have become spellstalks. Generally, PrCs only progress, "spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained". The BM's wording, "Starting at 1st level, whenever a beholder mage gains the ability to cast a new level of spells, it must sacrifi ce the use of its eye rays from one of its ten small eyestalks. From then on, that eyestalk casts spells of that level and is referred to as a spell-stalk. At 10th level, all of its eyestalks are spell-stalks", might be an exception. But I wouldn't count on it without checking with your DM first.
#11 heliomance Feb 11, 2009 15:18:45	Seeing as that is how the casting mechanic of the Beholder Mage works, it's kinda hard to argue it any other way, I feel.
#12 heliomance Feb 12, 2009 6:52:32	Well the DM's said I can play Beholder with a +4 LA, making it ECL 15. This nixes the plan of getting ninth level divine and arcane spells via ur-priest, but does give me enough room to get full BM casting. Should I stick with my original plan and only have 7th level spells (sounds not good to me) or should I stick with straight arcane casting? If the latter, what PrCs are recommended?
#13 umopapisdn Feb 14, 2009 10:45:21	It basically just lets you apply a bunch of "free" metamagics to a number of spells per day. Looking more closely though, I don't think it combines too well with Beholder Mage. I think they combine pretty well - Beholder Mages cast spontaneously. That means you can pick Wizard as your prepared casting class, use the same set of spellbooks, and keep it all Int-based. Sure, there are more optimized choices, but you are already a Beholder Mage. You're not going to lose too much in terms of power or versatility, and Ultimate Magus is pretty fun.
#14 surreal Feb 14, 2009 17:43:23	Except when you're starting off without early entry tricks, you really don't want to slow down your Beholder Mage progression at all. Ultimate Magus would need at least three levels of wizard to start off.
#15 thehumandynamo Feb 15, 2009 6:01:06	Well the DM's said I can play Beholder with a +4 LA, making it ECL 15. This nixes the plan of getting ninth level divine and arcane spells via ur-priest, but does give me enough room to get full BM casting. Should I stick with my original plan and only have 7th level spells (sounds not good to me) or should I stick with straight arcane casting? If the latter, what PrCs are recommended? Once you enter Beholder Mage, one level of Mindbender is a great idea for telepathy, Alienist not only offers full casting, but can fit very well thematically (though it has been criticized for lack of power), and generally any that will offer full casting progression while not requiring you to slow it down (as ultimate magus would with 3 levels of wizard needed).
#16 heliomance Feb 16, 2009 7:18:03	What I've got at the moment is Beholder Mage 1 Divine Oracle 9. I'd forgotten about Mindbender, I might grab a level of that because Mindsight is always good. Current sheet is here. Thoughts?