Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 SkilgannonTheMagnanimous Mar 05, 2015 19:34:27	Hey guys, so most people can agree that using Polymorph Any Object to get into Beholder Mage is broken and cheezy, but my question is this, I have a Player who wants to actually play a True Beholder who is a Beholder Mage, how balanced would the class be in this situation? Also, what would the ECL of a Beholder be? The only source that we have found is the "Complete guide to Beholders" (Which I'm pretty certain is 2nd Party), and it pins the Beholder at ECL 18 (11 RHD + 7 LA). I was thinking it would be closer to ECL 22, obviously my player disagrees, but I wanted to get your input before we settle on an ECL. Cheers.
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 05, 2015 21:22:23	SkilgannonTheMagnanimous wrote:
#3 Krusk Mar 08, 2015 14:47:07	I'd let you play a beholder at level 13, out of the box. (This doesn't use savage species method, which was written specifically to make it unpleasent to play monsters as PCs. Instead its based on the idea that a CR X monster is = a Level X PC. Savage species would let you play a beholder at level 20 or so, and you wouldn't even want to because it would be a joke)   Mainly, beholders are annoying for the anti-magic eye, which you need to put out for the prestige class, so thats an easy solution. Maybe let him play one if the game is at 14th level or higher.The class wouldn't be broken on an actual beholder, and you wouldn't get level 9 spells until epic, so you'd probably be less powerful than a real caster. I would ask that they not take other prestige classes until they finish this one though. So I didn't have to comb through for weird combinations to spot ban.   Honestly, he will probably be pretty close to a warlock in power until level 17-18 or so, when he might come closer to a real caster. Otherwise, he will just spam a lot of low level spells for a combat or two and then burn out. Probably still under real casters honestly. Keep in mind it has to pay its XP to cast anything with gold costs, and I can't see where it gains the ability to scribe scrolls to a spellbook or anything. So I know it says it knows a lot of spells, but thats pretty much untrue.
#4 Slagger_the_Chuul Mar 08, 2015 18:46:01	I'll throw in the beholder makeover here, since it involves an official attempt to make the beholder more easily usable, even if it's not intended for player characters. I think there should actually be room for the slow ray to turn targets to stone after multiple hits, since petrification is one of the remaining effects that can't outwardly be explained by other means (charming could encourage someone to sleep, fear is natural when facing a beholder, and so is death).   EDIT: If you're interested in PC use of beholder-related monsters, my previous work on reconstructing the Alienist's summoning list suggests that the director beholderkin doesn't have too many problematic abilities.
#5 SkilgannonTheMagnanimous Mar 10, 2015 21:10:33	Thank you all for your input. I agree that the Beholder Mage class is not overtly broken when played by an actual True Beholder, rather than some polymorphed cheese build. Its main strengths are the sheer number of spells it can cast in a round, and its ability to learn spells as a Wizard but cast them spontaneously as a Sorcerer. However, both of these strengths can also be weaknesses, as the high output of spells each turn burns through the avaible number of spells per day rather quickly, and learning spells as a Wizard, means the DM can directly control which Spells are avaible for the Beholder to study and learn. The job of DMing for this beast has passed to another DM in our group, and he has allowed it to be run as an ECL 18 Character, played as an 18 level Monster Class, with the option to alternate between one level of Beholder, and 1 level of Beholder Mage. The Character is currently level 8 (4 Beholer, 4 Beholder Mage), and it has played so far much like any other 8th level Wizard, and is currently outshined by the Charger in the Party, but I'm willing to bet that that will change in another 4 to 6 levels, and that the Beholder Mage will start to dominate the battlefields. Cheers.
#6 Captnq Mar 11, 2015 19:06:39	Beholder mage: 1/Ur priest: 1/Mystic Theurge: 9   Just sayin'...
#7 NineInchNall Mar 11, 2015 20:57:38	You mean Beholder Mage 2/Ur-Priest 2. MT requires 2nd level spells.
(Reply to #6) Krusk	Captnq wrote:
(Reply to #7) Captnq	NineInchNall wrote:
#10 Slagger_the_Chuul Mar 17, 2015 17:16:49	Captnq wrote: