Best 10 feats for your typical gish, all things being equal? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Best 10 feats for your typical gish, all things being equal?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
petalred
May 18, 2009 7:47:46 I'm working on putting together a gish for a campaign, starting at level 1 and playing until it doesn't make sense to keep playing anymore. I'm not going to go into details about my specific build because 1) we're starting at level 1, so my build isn't much at the moment and I'm planning for the future, but my plans could always change; and 2) we're using a lot of custom content, so conventional CO wisdom won't always apply and I don't want to get into arguments about my choices. Anyway, I'm trying to plan out my feats as best I can, so I can see where I have wiggle room for things I'd like to do that might not be as technically powerful as other choices. The way I currently have things planned, if we get all the way up to 20th level, I see my character having had 10 feat choices total. All things being equal, for a completely generic gish, what do people recommend as the 10 most crucial feats available (no book is off limits, though I like to stay away from campaign settings as much as possible)? Thanks!
#2
pithica
May 18, 2009 8:34:31 Arcane Strike (CW version)
Knowledge Devotion
Improved Initiative
Lightning Reflexes (Not really the feat, but my two gish builds have horrible base reflex saves, so I tend to take the Weasel Familiar to help, which is effectively the same as LR, to help with that.)
Extend Spell (only if you can't pick up rods easy, or you're going persist)
Arcane Disciple-Competition
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Persist Spell (only if your build has free or reduced cost metamagic)
Chain Spell
Enspell Familiar (Dragon Compendium)
Ability Enhancer (Dragon Compendium)

That's 13, but one of them isn't really a feat.

As a suggestion, my normal gish build is as follows...

Human Paragon 1/Fighter 1/Martial Wizard 2/Human Paragon +2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Incantatrix 4/Eldritch Knight 4

That build gives 7 base feats, 5 bonus fighter/open feats, and 2 bonus metamagic feats. It requires Combat Casting (which sucks), one metamagic feat, and Iron will (which you buy with Otyugh's hole), leaving you with 12 feats to pick (hence my 13 list above). It also has free persisting, which is awesome for a gish.
#3
Omen_of_Peace
May 18, 2009 9:12:05 I'd take Great Cleave off (yuck) and add in Minor Shapeshift (CM) assuming you have access to the Polymorph line.
Practiced Spellcaster is good if your build loses CL, and gishes often do.
#4
pithica
May 18, 2009 10:03:05 YMMV, but I regularly run into circumstances where Great Cleave is quite useful, allowing me to kill large groups of opponents in one round where I otherwise couldn't due to lack of attacks.

Minor Shapeshift is awesome, but I never use [Polymorph] subschool spells, due to the inability to cast, so it's a lot less useful. Of course, if you can convince your DM to let the original spells (Alter Self, Polymorph, etc) count, without taking on the properties of the subschool, it's a lot more useful. (20 temp hitpoints/rnd as a swift action? yes please.)

I will agree, though, I completely flaked on Practiced Spellcaster.
#5
jameswilliamogle
May 18, 2009 10:09:05 Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush (can remove / retrain at high level, w/ Persistant Wraithstrike)
Shocktrooper (can remove / retrain at high level, w/ Persistant Wraithstrike)
Leap Attack

Arcane Strike

Extend Spell
Persistant Spell (even w/o reduced cost cheese, it rocks when you can cast 8th level spells)

Practiced Spellcaster (as per the advice above)

Still Spell (assuming you have ASF; if not, Improved Initiative)

Retraining the two free ones above, I'd make them Heighten IF you get Minor Shapeshift as well, or Improved Initiative and another metamagic.
#6
pithica
May 18, 2009 10:29:02 With one level of Spellsword, you can wear Mithril Githcrafted Twilight Fullplate with no ASF. I personally think Still Spell is a wasted feat, unless you require it for a PrC.
#7
ninjarabbit
May 18, 2009 13:47:42 Power attack
Improved initative
Arcane strike
Divine might if you have turn undead like through sacred exorcist for example
Knowledge devotion
Practiced spellcaster
Minor shapeshift if polymorph is allowed
Shock trooper if you can spare the feat for improved bull-rush since you have many ways of making your AC a non-issue
Obtain familiar/improved familiar in certain builds
Brutal strike
Dreadful wrath for cha-based gishes
Split ray and empower spell if you have a few rays on your spells known like enervation and ray of stupidity
Combat casting for abjurant champion
#8
carnivore
May 18, 2009 15:06:46 are you focusing on:

Ranged Spell Combat
Ranged Martial Combat
Melee Martial Combat

what type do you plan on?

my favorites ...... based on Spontaneous Caster:

Versatile Caster
Heighten Spell

Knowledge Devotion
Practiced Spellcaster

Arcane strike
Minor Shapeshift(Reserve)
Summon Elemental(Reserve)
Acid Splatter(Reserve)
Firey Burst(Reserve)

Str Based:[indent]
Power Attack
Leap Attack[/indent]

Dex Based:[indent]
Weapon Finnesse
Combat Reflexes
Robilars Gambit[/indent]

Initiative Boosters[indent]
Improved Initiative
Quick Reconoiter
Blooded(Regional)[/indent]

Stealth:[indent]
Darkstalker[/indent]

:D
#9
muertog
May 18, 2009 15:20:57 Travel Devotion is also good for Full-attacking gish builds. Nothing like battlefield movement in addition to control.

Problem is that asking what feats are "best" is very subjective. Melee? Ranged? Spell-oriented? Weapon-oriented? Precision-based? Each of those can severely change the order of "what is best". Most of the previous suggestions are important for overall builds, but most CO builds are more singularly focused in order to obtain optimal damage and utility. Heck, deciding what the magic-wielding class is important. I might as well claim that "Natural Spell" is the most important... for a druid.
#10
artemisgaf
May 18, 2009 15:49:34
Travel Devotion is also good for Full-attacking gish builds. Nothing like battlefield movement in addition to control.

Well if you combine Paladin / Sorcerer / Abjurant Champion / Sacred Exorsist you will have a full-attack in every attack.
And why choose Power Attack if some spells can give it for free, at lower levels Heroics, at mid levels Bite of the WereTiger or Bite of the WereBear.
#11
petalred
May 18, 2009 16:17:01 Well, again, I'm staying out of the particulars of my build because there's a lot of custom content in this campaign, but I'm going to be based in sorcerer for my spellcasting (and therefore Charisma-based), I won't be losing any caster levels, I'm going to be melee-oriented (using Power Attack/Wraithstrike/two-handed weapon as a favoured technique), and I'm hopefully going to be focusing on squeezing as many actions out of each turn as possible.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far!
#12
ikildkenny
May 18, 2009 16:51:29 well ... in that case:

Versityle Spellcaster
Power Attack
(Combat Casting - Abjurant Champion prereq!!!)
Travel devotion+Turn attempts
Arcane Strike

just to name "the" most important imho
#13
Omen_of_Peace
May 18, 2009 17:31:14
Minor Shapeshift is awesome, but I never use [Polymorph] subschool spells, due to the inability to cast, so it's a lot less useful. Of course, if you can convince your DM to let the original spells (Alter Self, Polymorph, etc) count, without taking on the properties of the subschool, it's a lot more useful. (20 temp hitpoints/rnd as a swift action? yes please.)

Polymorph & co are of the Polymorph subschool. See for instance CM page 91, "Spells that have come before".

Otherwise I wouldn't be recommending the feat. :P
#14
carnivore
May 19, 2009 4:19:46
Well if you combine Paladin / Sorcerer / Abjurant Champion / Sacred Exorsist you will have a full-attack in every attack.
And why choose Power Attack if some spells can give it for free, at lower levels Heroics, at mid levels Bite of the WereTiger or Bite of the WereBear.

because Power Attack is the Prerequisite for many other very good feats that you will want to have

:D
#15
lormador
May 19, 2009 7:20:41 I think Otherworldly deserves to be short listed.... depending on how the player/DM feels about Alter Self and Polymorph. Personally I feel the arcane gish is the character who Should be using form-altering magic of that kind...

I'd put Craft Contingent Spell in the same league, once the appropriate level has been achieved.
#16
carnivore
May 19, 2009 8:14:07 if you have the feats available... Otherworldly is fine.... but i would rather take a 0 LA Outsider Race(Neraph, Lesser Aasimar) or even +1 LA Outsider with LA Buy Off(Aasimar, Tiefling)

:D
#17
pithica
May 19, 2009 11:11:00
Polymorph & co are of the Polymorph subschool. See for instance CM page 91, "Spells that have come before".

Otherwise I wouldn't be recommending the feat. :P

I realize completely that the 'spells that have come before' section includes them, but I've had several DM's rule that they don't count (for MS purposes), since I successfully argued that they don't take any of the penalties of the school (as their own rule text overrides the 'school' rules).

It's one of those, 'having your cake and eating it too' things. Some DM's don't like that. If you can convince the DM, more power to you, and it's an awesome feat.
#18
mister_crowley
May 20, 2009 21:58:16 I'd also recommend Battle Casting out of Races of the Wild, my gish has it and it's very useful. +2 Dodge bonus in any round you cast a spell ;) Prereq are a little ugly: Dex 13, Combat CAsting, and Concentration 5 ranks. But if you're going Abjurant Champion you'll already have the Combat Casting
#19
phaedrusxy
May 20, 2009 23:46:55
if you have the feats available... Otherworldly is fine.... but i would rather take a 0 LA Outsider Race(Neraph,

Not everyone wants to look like a giant frog-man, though.

Although I am in a PbP where a guy is playing a Neraph wizard, and I must say he is hilarious. I think that has more to do with the guy playing it than the race, though.
Lesser Aasimar) or even +1 LA Outsider with LA Buy Off(Aasimar, Tiefling)

:D

Lesser Aasimar's aren't considered outsiders for Polymorph, are they? The full one with LA buyoff is decent, though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 petalred May 18, 2009 7:47:46	I'm working on putting together a gish for a campaign, starting at level 1 and playing until it doesn't make sense to keep playing anymore. I'm not going to go into details about my specific build because 1) we're starting at level 1, so my build isn't much at the moment and I'm planning for the future, but my plans could always change; and 2) we're using a lot of custom content, so conventional CO wisdom won't always apply and I don't want to get into arguments about my choices. Anyway, I'm trying to plan out my feats as best I can, so I can see where I have wiggle room for things I'd like to do that might not be as technically powerful as other choices. The way I currently have things planned, if we get all the way up to 20th level, I see my character having had 10 feat choices total. All things being equal, for a completely generic gish, what do people recommend as the 10 most crucial feats available (no book is off limits, though I like to stay away from campaign settings as much as possible)? Thanks!
#2 pithica May 18, 2009 8:34:31	Arcane Strike (CW version) Knowledge Devotion Improved Initiative Lightning Reflexes (Not really the feat, but my two gish builds have horrible base reflex saves, so I tend to take the Weasel Familiar to help, which is effectively the same as LR, to help with that.) Extend Spell (only if you can't pick up rods easy, or you're going persist) Arcane Disciple-Competition Power Attack Cleave Great Cleave Persist Spell (only if your build has free or reduced cost metamagic) Chain Spell Enspell Familiar (Dragon Compendium) Ability Enhancer (Dragon Compendium) That's 13, but one of them isn't really a feat. As a suggestion, my normal gish build is as follows... Human Paragon 1/Fighter 1/Martial Wizard 2/Human Paragon +2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Incantatrix 4/Eldritch Knight 4 That build gives 7 base feats, 5 bonus fighter/open feats, and 2 bonus metamagic feats. It requires Combat Casting (which sucks), one metamagic feat, and Iron will (which you buy with Otyugh's hole), leaving you with 12 feats to pick (hence my 13 list above). It also has free persisting, which is awesome for a gish.
#3 Omen_of_Peace May 18, 2009 9:12:05	I'd take Great Cleave off (yuck) and add in Minor Shapeshift (CM) assuming you have access to the Polymorph line. Practiced Spellcaster is good if your build loses CL, and gishes often do.
#4 pithica May 18, 2009 10:03:05	YMMV, but I regularly run into circumstances where Great Cleave is quite useful, allowing me to kill large groups of opponents in one round where I otherwise couldn't due to lack of attacks. Minor Shapeshift is awesome, but I never use [Polymorph] subschool spells, due to the inability to cast, so it's a lot less useful. Of course, if you can convince your DM to let the original spells (Alter Self, Polymorph, etc) count, without taking on the properties of the subschool, it's a lot more useful. (20 temp hitpoints/rnd as a swift action? yes please.) I will agree, though, I completely flaked on Practiced Spellcaster.
#5 jameswilliamogle May 18, 2009 10:09:05	Power Attack Improved Bull Rush (can remove / retrain at high level, w/ Persistant Wraithstrike) Shocktrooper (can remove / retrain at high level, w/ Persistant Wraithstrike) Leap Attack Arcane Strike Extend Spell Persistant Spell (even w/o reduced cost cheese, it rocks when you can cast 8th level spells) Practiced Spellcaster (as per the advice above) Still Spell (assuming you have ASF; if not, Improved Initiative) Retraining the two free ones above, I'd make them Heighten IF you get Minor Shapeshift as well, or Improved Initiative and another metamagic.
#6 pithica May 18, 2009 10:29:02	With one level of Spellsword, you can wear Mithril Githcrafted Twilight Fullplate with no ASF. I personally think Still Spell is a wasted feat, unless you require it for a PrC.
#7 ninjarabbit May 18, 2009 13:47:42	Power attack Improved initative Arcane strike Divine might if you have turn undead like through sacred exorcist for example Knowledge devotion Practiced spellcaster Minor shapeshift if polymorph is allowed Shock trooper if you can spare the feat for improved bull-rush since you have many ways of making your AC a non-issue Obtain familiar/improved familiar in certain builds Brutal strike Dreadful wrath for cha-based gishes Split ray and empower spell if you have a few rays on your spells known like enervation and ray of stupidity Combat casting for abjurant champion
#8 carnivore May 18, 2009 15:06:46	are you focusing on: Ranged Spell Combat Ranged Martial Combat Melee Martial Combat what type do you plan on? my favorites ...... based on Spontaneous Caster: Versatile Caster Heighten Spell Knowledge Devotion Practiced Spellcaster Arcane strike Minor Shapeshift(Reserve) Summon Elemental(Reserve) Acid Splatter(Reserve) Firey Burst(Reserve) Str Based:[indent] Power Attack Leap Attack[/indent] Dex Based:[indent] Weapon Finnesse Combat Reflexes Robilars Gambit[/indent] Initiative Boosters[indent] Improved Initiative Quick Reconoiter Blooded(Regional)[/indent] Stealth:[indent] Darkstalker[/indent] :D
#9 muertog May 18, 2009 15:20:57	Travel Devotion is also good for Full-attacking gish builds. Nothing like battlefield movement in addition to control. Problem is that asking what feats are "best" is very subjective. Melee? Ranged? Spell-oriented? Weapon-oriented? Precision-based? Each of those can severely change the order of "what is best". Most of the previous suggestions are important for overall builds, but most CO builds are more singularly focused in order to obtain optimal damage and utility. Heck, deciding what the magic-wielding class is important. I might as well claim that "Natural Spell" is the most important... for a druid.
#10 artemisgaf May 18, 2009 15:49:34	Travel Devotion is also good for Full-attacking gish builds. Nothing like battlefield movement in addition to control. Well if you combine Paladin / Sorcerer / Abjurant Champion / Sacred Exorsist you will have a full-attack in every attack. And why choose Power Attack if some spells can give it for free, at lower levels Heroics, at mid levels Bite of the WereTiger or Bite of the WereBear.
#11 petalred May 18, 2009 16:17:01	Well, again, I'm staying out of the particulars of my build because there's a lot of custom content in this campaign, but I'm going to be based in sorcerer for my spellcasting (and therefore Charisma-based), I won't be losing any caster levels, I'm going to be melee-oriented (using Power Attack/Wraithstrike/two-handed weapon as a favoured technique), and I'm hopefully going to be focusing on squeezing as many actions out of each turn as possible. Thanks for all the suggestions so far!
#12 ikildkenny May 18, 2009 16:51:29	well ... in that case: Versityle Spellcaster Power Attack (Combat Casting - Abjurant Champion prereq!!!) Travel devotion+Turn attempts Arcane Strike just to name "the" most important imho
#13 Omen_of_Peace May 18, 2009 17:31:14	Minor Shapeshift is awesome, but I never use [Polymorph] subschool spells, due to the inability to cast, so it's a lot less useful. Of course, if you can convince your DM to let the original spells (Alter Self, Polymorph, etc) count, without taking on the properties of the subschool, it's a lot more useful. (20 temp hitpoints/rnd as a swift action? yes please.) Polymorph & co are of the Polymorph subschool. See for instance CM page 91, "Spells that have come before". Otherwise I wouldn't be recommending the feat. :P
#14 carnivore May 19, 2009 4:19:46	Well if you combine Paladin / Sorcerer / Abjurant Champion / Sacred Exorsist you will have a full-attack in every attack. And why choose Power Attack if some spells can give it for free, at lower levels Heroics, at mid levels Bite of the WereTiger or Bite of the WereBear. because Power Attack is the Prerequisite for many other very good feats that you will want to have :D
#15 lormador May 19, 2009 7:20:41	I think Otherworldly deserves to be short listed.... depending on how the player/DM feels about Alter Self and Polymorph. Personally I feel the arcane gish is the character who Should be using form-altering magic of that kind... I'd put Craft Contingent Spell in the same league, once the appropriate level has been achieved.
#16 carnivore May 19, 2009 8:14:07	if you have the feats available... Otherworldly is fine.... but i would rather take a 0 LA Outsider Race(Neraph, Lesser Aasimar) or even +1 LA Outsider with LA Buy Off(Aasimar, Tiefling) :D
#17 pithica May 19, 2009 11:11:00	Polymorph & co are of the Polymorph subschool. See for instance CM page 91, "Spells that have come before". Otherwise I wouldn't be recommending the feat. :P I realize completely that the 'spells that have come before' section includes them, but I've had several DM's rule that they don't count (for MS purposes), since I successfully argued that they don't take any of the penalties of the school (as their own rule text overrides the 'school' rules). It's one of those, 'having your cake and eating it too' things. Some DM's don't like that. If you can convince the DM, more power to you, and it's an awesome feat.
#18 mister_crowley May 20, 2009 21:58:16	I'd also recommend Battle Casting out of Races of the Wild, my gish has it and it's very useful. +2 Dodge bonus in any round you cast a spell ;) Prereq are a little ugly: Dex 13, Combat CAsting, and Concentration 5 ranks. But if you're going Abjurant Champion you'll already have the Combat Casting
#19 phaedrusxy May 20, 2009 23:46:55	if you have the feats available... Otherworldly is fine.... but i would rather take a 0 LA Outsider Race(Neraph, Not everyone wants to look like a giant frog-man, though. Although I am in a PbP where a guy is playing a Neraph wizard, and I must say he is hilarious. I think that has more to do with the guy playing it than the race, though. Lesser Aasimar) or even +1 LA Outsider with LA Buy Off(Aasimar, Tiefling) :D Lesser Aasimar's aren't considered outsiders for Polymorph, are they? The full one with LA buyoff is decent, though.