Notes:
- The game uses Pathfinder (tm) rules, so the Ranger class is slightly better (d10 hit die, favored enemy bonus applies to attack rolls). As is the Eldritch Knight class (d10 hit die, additional class features).
- Setting-specific books would probably be frowned on.
- The character is Lawful Neutral and I don't want to change alignments, so Barbarian and Soulborn are out (for instance).
Is there anything better out there than Fighter or Ranger that I'm not thinking of?
(To be even more specific, the character is currently a half-elf Monk 2/Sorcerer 1.)
CRUSADER!
Warblade.... great class abilities, D12 HD
Swashbuckler ... Free Weapon Finnesse
Variant Fighter(Thug) from SRD
Duskblade .... very nice... gives ALL Knowledge Skills as Class Skills(great for knowledge Devotion)
Knight .... useful ablities
Samurai .... Exotic weapon Proficency
:D
I love swashbuckler. It's hard to articulate how cool that class is, and duskblade is also a superb option. Warblade breaks records right alongside sader and swordsage. Basically, anything but core fighter will see you through.
Man, it hurts to say that.
i like several:
Warblade.... great class abilities, D12 HD
Swashbuckler ... Free Weapon Finnesse
Variant Fighter(Thug) from SRD
Duskblade .... very nice... gives ALL Knowledge Skills as Class Skills(great for knowledge Devotion)
Knight .... useful ablities
Samurai .... Exotic weapon Proficency
:D
Note that the Warblade doesn't give full martial weapon proficiencies.
As for the rest:
-Swashbuckler: I don't need Weapon Finesse (Str > Dex).
-Thug Fighter: DM has a house rule that all classes get 4 skill points/level, minimum.
-Duskblade: Character in question has 8 Int.
Also, there aren't really any "cross-class" skills in Pathfinder.-Knight: Level 1 ability is fairly mediocre, and I wouldn't be taking more than 1 level.
-Samurai: Um...no. I might as well take Fighter.
I think Crusader is definitely the #1 choice, although I suspect that the DM might be a Tome-of-Battle-hater.
Just checked, Warblade grants full martial weapon proficiencies. If you want full armor proficiencies, that's basically crusader or fighter, and that's not really a choice at all.
I was 99% sure that it only gave melee weapon proficiencies, but I'll take your word for it. I'd probably rather take crusader anyways (character is currently expressing interest in the Church of the Silver Flame).
I don't need any armor proficiencies; it would interfere with monk & sorcerer abilities.
:D
No.
The Marshal from the Minis handbook would grant a minor aura as well as martial weapon profs.
That's an interesting thought, but (a) the character only has 12 Cha (he'll have to get a headband of Cha some day...) and (b) he's only got +1 BAB at level 3, and he'll lose even more BAB when he takes levels in Dragon Disciple (well, "Abyssal Disciple" since he's an Abyssal bloodline sorcerer).
Stats are Str 16, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 12.
That's an interesting thought, but (a) the character only has 12 Cha (he'll have to get a headband of Cha some day...)
I assume there's a reason you put your second-worst roll in your primary spellcasting stat?
I assume there's a reason you put your second-worst roll in your primary spellcasting stat?
My original plan was to play a (Pathfinder) Monk 19/Sorcerer 1.
Then I realised that a 3.5 Dragon Disciple is better than extra levels in Monk, so I changed my mind to play a Monk 12/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 7.
Then Pathfinder changed Dragon Disciple and Eldritch Knight to be better, so I've changed my mind to play something with Dragon Disciple and Eldritch Knight (probably).
At any rate, his spellcasting will only be used for buffs or maybe "no save" spells, so it's not a big deal.
I like Fighter... simple, effective... There's lots of really nice new feats in the PF beta book.
I'm strongly considering Fighter; there's no shortage of feats that I'd like to take.
Duskblade1/Monk4/DragonDisciple2
Sounds like your character should be a:
Duskblade1/Monk4/DragonDisciple2
Well, he already has a level of Sorcerer, so that's non-negotiable. I have been considering taking more levels of Monk, but none of the class features really float my boat:
Level 3 = +10' movement (nice), still mind (o.k.), +1 to combat maneuvers (whoop-de-do), +0 to saves (pfft)
Level 4 = ki pool (nice), improved unarmed damage (o.k., except I flurry with a longspear), +1 AC (o.k.), +1 to all saves (o.k.), slow fall (whoop-de-do)
Instead, I'm thinking of taking another level of sorcerer and a level of crusader/fighter/ranger; that gives me just as many benefits, IMO.
--
EDIT: I double-checked, and warblades only get martial melee weapons, not all martial weapons.
I think Crusader is definitely the #1 choice, although I suspect that the DM might be a Tome-of-Battle-hater.
It seems many DM's are.. To be honest, Crusader is a TAD on the stupid cheese side (White Raven Tactics the culprit).
Or is this not the place to state that opinion? :D
I was 99% sure that it only gave melee weapon proficiencies, but I'll take your word for it.
I think you are right. I did an elven warblade once and I noted that the class itself does not give proficiencies with ranged weapons. Actually, you can find it online in a ToB excerpt here. Note the wording:
You are proficient with simple and martial melee weapons (including those that can be used as thrown weapons), light and medium armor, and all shields except tower shields.
Crusader is probably the best option, fighter and ranger aren't bad at all. Samurai isn't a bad option; the class gets a daisho that advances on character level rather than class level, so they may be a very handy choice as well... if your DM doesn't have a problem with that feature. Note that I meant the OA samurai. The CW thing is a waste of space.
What else... Well, the XPH Psychic Warrior iirc gives you martial proficiency and a bonus feat, but does not advance your BAB. It can still be handy for allowing you to take psionic feats, though.
It seems many DM's are.. To be honest, Crusader is a TAD on the stupid cheese side (White Raven Tactics the culprit).
Or is this not the place to state that opinion? :D
Just because it's in the book doesn't mean it has to be used... I'd gladly sacrifice White Raven Tactics for the greater glory that is Tome of Battle.
Just because it's in the book doesn't mean it has to be used... I'd gladly sacrifice White Raven Tactics for the greater glory that is Tome of Battle.
Right; there are things in there that I think are ill-conceived (e.g. White Raven Tactics) or just a bit silly (e.g. "I fell off a cliff, so I'll just punch this hobo until I feel better"), but if I were to take a level of Crusader I'd try to avoid that as much as possible.
But back to topic, as everyone here has mentioned: Crusader would probably be the best option
Right; there are things in there that I think are ill-conceived (e.g. White Raven Tactics) or just a bit silly (e.g. "I fell off a cliff, so I'll just punch this hobo until I feel better"), but if I were to take a level of Crusader I'd try to avoid that as much as possible.
Punching your allies has been seen to have therapeutic effects, both for you and them.
Or maybe pick you up, hit others with you or throw you away :D
1) Vital Strike can get absolutely disgusting for any class that full attacks.
2) If you are going to monk flurry, might as well two-weapon attack as well, since how Vital Strike is worded grants you additional damage w/ your off-hand attack. Ranger is nice for that ability, if you take the second level. Also grants you access to the ranger spell list as wands (cure light and find the gap are fun).
There is a reason we banned vital strike from our game. :P
3) The one level dip in ranger can grant you access to the alternative class feature for the ranger: Arcane Hunter (CM, p32). Pretty much means you get your FE bonus to anything that casts arcane or invocations. That means almost any boss-type except for divine casters.
4) I am surprised noone has suggested Abjurant Champion at this point.
Punching your allies has been seen to have therapeutic effects, both for you and them.
I thought the first rule was that you weren't supposed to talk about that.
As I am involved in a Pathfinder-based game, I have a couple suggestions:
1) Vital Strike can get absolutely disgusting for any class that full attacks.
2) If you are going to monk flurry, might as well two-weapon attack as well, since how Vital Strike is worded grants you additional damage w/ your off-hand attack. Ranger is nice for that ability, if you take the second level. Also grants you access to the ranger spell list as wands (cure light and find the gap are fun).
There is a reason we banned vital strike from our game. :P
3) The one level dip in ranger can grant you access to the alternative class feature for the ranger: Arcane Hunter (CM, p32). Pretty much means you get your FE bonus to anything that casts arcane or invocations. That means almost any boss-type except for divine casters.
4) I am surprised noone has suggested Abjurant Champion at this point.
1) It's on the list, but I don't think it's as great as your making it out to be (doubling a weapon's base damage is nice but not OMGWTFBBQ, IMO). And I won't be able to get it until late in the game anyways.
2) I'm flurrying with a 2-handed longspear (using the Eberron feat Serpent Strike); I'm planning on going with the Overhand Chop/Backswing/Devastating Blow feat chain (2x Str bonus instead of 1.5x when using a 2-handed weapon, and later the ability to make an automatic critical hit as a standard action). I'm not interesting in two-weapon fighting (even if I qualified for the TWF feat, which I don't, unless I take levels in ranger).
3) Interesting; a +2 to attack and damage vs. every arcane spellcaster would be handy.
4) Does Abjurant Champion give you all martial weapon proficiencies?
I thought the first rule was that you weren't supposed to talk about that.
Wow... Didn't see that coming, but was obvious in hindsight.
Vital Strike basically says "ditch your least-likely to hit attack and deal more damage".
Enlarge Person = weapon of greater size (and greater damage). Greater Mighty Wallop means your damage -also- increases. Double -THAT-. You can deal more damage than a fireball with each swing.
I am doing a slightly smaller version of the same spell-tree via a cleric and Stone Fist, Earth Hammer and Enlarge Person.
Mighty Wallop is also banned in my game. :P
Originally Posted by hogarth
I thought the first rule was that you weren't supposed to talk about that.
What's the second rule? :P
Monk 2 gets 1d8 for the unarmed strike.
Increasing the size once (Mighty Wallop) makes it go to 2d6.
Increasing the size again (Enlarge Person) makes it go up to 3d6.
Vital Strike would double that (6d6), since it is the base damage of the weapon, not an enhancement, just a much LARGER than normal weapon.
Monks Flurry of blows increases the number of attacks, Two Weapon Fighting increases the number of attacks (since you can off-hand your unarmed strike at full damage)... you can see where I am going with this.
And this is easily started by level 1, since both Enlarge Person and Mighty Wallop are 1st level spells. The Vital Strike takes a little longer, but it makes for a nice damage boost at the point where your damage is starting to not be enough... although throwing Greater Mighty Wallop in the mix just makes the whole thing go into overdrive.
:D
If you plan on going monk/sorcerer you should at the very least get the feat called Ascetic mage and stop caring about wisdom
Just going through the numbers.
Monk 2 gets 1d8 for the unarmed strike.
Increasing the size once (Mighty Wallop) makes it go to 2d6.
Increasing the size again (Enlarge Person) makes it go up to 3d6.
Vital Strike would double that (6d6), since it is the base damage of the weapon, not an enhancement, just a much LARGER than normal weapon.
Well, really that sounds like (Greater) Mighty Wallop is really good (or at least synergizes well with Vital Strike) rather than Vital Strike being really good on its own. But Vital Strike is on my list of potential feats. Here's the feats I have and what I intend to take:
Stealthy [campaign bonus]
Skill Focus (Perception) [half-elf]
Heroic Spirit [lvl 1]
Combat Reflexes [monk 1]
Eschew Materials [sorcerer 1]
Weapon Focus (longspear) [lvl 3]
Serpent Strike [monk 2]
...
Action Burst [lvl 5]
Overhand Chop [lvl 7]
Power Attack ["abyssal" disciple 2]
Backswing [lvl 9]
Great Fortitude ["abyssal" disciple 5]
Stand Still [lvl 11]
? [lvl 13]
? [eldritch knight 1]
Devastating Blow [lvl 15]
Vital Strike [lvl 17]
Critical Focus [eldritch knight 5]
Blinding Critical [lvl 19]
I forget what goes in the "?" spots off the top of my head; maybe Dazzling Display and Intimidating Prowess. But note that Vital Strike and Devastating Blow need +11 BAB, so they can't come before level 15. If I go for a level of fighter, that would shift up Overhand Chop and Stand Still and free up another feat later on.
Weapon Proficiency
Arcane Archer, ecl 7, DMG, simple and martial
Blackguard, ecl 7, DMG, simple and martial
Duelist, ecl 7, DMG, simple and martial
Dwarven Defender, ecl 8, DMG, simple and martial
Duskblade, PHB2, simple and martial
Elocater, ecl 8, XPH, simple and martial
Slayer, ecl 5, XPH, simple and martial
Bloodhound, ecl 5, Complete Adventurer, simple and martial
Dread Pirate, ecl 6, Complete Adventurer, simple, light martial, and rapier
Ghost-Faced Killer, ecl 6, Complete Adventurer, simple and martial
Shadowbane Inquisitor, ecl 6, Complete Adventurer, simple and martial
Cavalier, ecl 9, Complete Warrior, simple and martial
Gnome Giant-Slayer, ecl 6, Complete Warrior, simple and martial
Occult Slayer, ecl 6, Complete Warrior, simple and martial
Holy Liberator, ecl 6, Complete Divine, simple and martial
Hospitaler, ecl 6, Complete Divine, simple and martial
Warpriest, ecl 6, Complete Divine, simple and martial
Deepwarden, ecl 6, Races of Stone, simple and martial
Goliath Liberator, ecl 8, Races of Stone, martial
Crusader, Tome of Battle, simple and martial
Warblade, Tome of Battle, simple and martial (melee only)
Dragonslayer, ecl 6, Draconomicon, simple and martial
Platinum Knight, ecl 6, Draconomicon, simple and martial
Doomlord, ecl 8, Planar Handbook, martial
Chaotician, ecl 5, Planar Handbook, simple and martial
Soulborn, Magic of Incarnum, simple and martial
I'm on my college campus right now so I don't have by books with me but does it have to be a base class? I forget what the pre-reqs are but Im thinking dragon slayer gives weapon proficiency with martial weapons while advancing certain base class features doesn't it? Oh, and fear immunity
It doesn't have to be a base class, but most of those prestige classes listed give less than one feat's worth of "net" benefit (e.g. dragonslayer is expensive to enter) or might cause some weird roleplaying contortions.
:D
IIRC.... Witch Slayer(Tome of Magic)... has easy Reqs... gives all Martial Weapon proficency, and Mettle
:D
Nope, no weapon proficiencies. Sadly, most of the PrCs in the later books do not give out weapon or armor profs. In fact, the entry is omitted entirely.
I've decided to go with more levels of monk since there are some improvements in the final version of the Pathfinder rules (e.g. a monk effectively has full BAB when doing a flurry of blows). So the final character might end up something like Monk 12/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 4/etc.
Hm. What's wrong with Abjurant Champion?
We're "highly recommended" to finish a prestige class before starting another one, and I'm sold on Dragon Disciple.
Just checked, Warblade grants full martial weapon proficiencies. If you want full armor proficiencies, that's basically crusader or fighter, and that's not really a choice at all.
AFB, but doesn't it give full melee martial proficiencies?
AFB, but doesn't it give full melee martial proficiencies?
...including those that can be thrown, yes. No ranged martial proficiency is allowed by the text.
...including those that can be thrown, yes. No ranged martial proficiency is allowed by the text.
Something along the lines I was thinking then. Cheers.