Best form for a Primeval? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Best form for a Primeval?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
gryfter
Jul 24, 2009 20:10:04 Making a Feral human Wildshape Ranger/Warshaper/Primeval and looking for advice on my form loosely following the guidelines of an "ancient" creature like dinosaurs or dire animals (but open to interpretation).

I'm really looking for something that has a 10' reach and decent stats, especially dex (which is hard to find). I'm going for a Power Attack/Knockback with combat reflexes type build to AoO knock people around, so the reach is important. Morphic reach would give me 15'.

I suppose the most optimized way is to go dire ape and use a spiked chain, but i'd really like to avoid that.
#2
pithica
Jul 25, 2009 11:11:22 It doesn't have reach by default, but Fleshraker (MM3 p40) is a solid option. It has like 5 natural attacks, leaping pounce (excellent if you can pair with Leap Attack and/or Battlejump), and poison. It also has +6 nat and a Dex of 19. You can just have 'Enlarge Person' cast on you after the change for 10ft reach, or get an item with it and a Wildling Clasp (from MIC) so that you can use it whilst in wildshape (I'm pretty sure primeval uses Wildshape rules).

EDIT: Oh yeah, Dire Eagles, from Races of Stone, start out with 10ft reach and I believe a 19 Dex. They can also fly (60ft Avg) and have a +5 Natural armor bonus. They only have 3 natural attacks and no pounce, though. (but I suppose pounce from Feral carries over).
#3
dyslexicfaser
Jul 26, 2009 23:27:24 Behold the mighty Black Octopus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=748197), perfect for high-level sea-based campaigns.
#4
acereraklives
Jul 27, 2009 4:42:37 I don't know which I love better: the awesome grappling build, or the 2 pages of arguing over whether a giant octopus counts as prehistoric :P

Also, here's the handbook somebody made for the class:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1016136
#5
gryfter
Jul 27, 2009 16:25:45 I think I'm going in a slightly different direction, and have settled on the Cave Ankylosaurus. No dex bonus will hurt a little with AoO's but how often are you going to be using more than 2-3 anyway?

This way I'll get +10 to strength, +10 to con, and a crazy +17 to natural armor, as well as 10' reach and a good trample. With a 1 level dip in Fist of the Forest, I'll also get Con to AC, which will work well with Robilar's Gambit. Activate it, start walking through the enemies begging for them to take their AoO.

One question, though, in the reading of Robilar's it doesn't say that taking those specific AoOs count against your normal total, while most other AoO feats do. Is there a ruling on this?
#6
tehlivingdeath
Jul 27, 2009 17:54:48
One question, though, in the reading of Robilar's it doesn't say that taking those specific AoOs count against your normal total, while most other AoO feats do. Is there a ruling on this?

It doesn't need to spell that out. Robilar's Gambit let's you AoO whoever attacks you and you can only make one AoO per round or more with Combat Reflexes. It's pretty obvious and doesn't need any ruling.

And that strategy won't get you far because A) Your offensive output is gonna be pretty low and B) High AC is an inefficient way of performing the "tank" party role because enemies who can't hit you and take little damage from you will simply go after other party members.

Honestly, if you want to go Primeval, grappling and/or pouncing is what the class is good at, aside from the usual Dire Ape wielding a weapon.
#7
gryfter
Jul 27, 2009 18:29:55
It doesn't need to spell that out. Robilar's Gambit let's you AoO whoever attacks you and you can only make one AoO per round or more with Combat Reflexes. It's pretty obvious and doesn't need any ruling.

And that strategy won't get you far because A) Your offensive output is gonna be pretty low and B) High AC is an inefficient way of performing the "tank" party role because enemies who can't hit you and take little damage from you will simply go after other party members.

Honestly, if you want to go Primeval, grappling and/or pouncing is what the class is good at, aside from the usual Dire Ape wielding a weapon.

I know it doesn't specifically need to call it out. It's just that most of the other AoO feats DO, and since robilar's breaks from the norm on that, it raised a flag and I thought I'd ask. Combat reflexes is a prereq for it as well, btw.

I'm going the control route with 15' range (from morphic weapon) and using AoOs to knockback/stand still. Hopefully I'll still be doing "ok" damage simply by virtue of a 50ish strength score and power attacking with a strength&half weapon.
#8
gorthawar
Jul 28, 2009 5:39:50 A lvl of monk might be helpful in your build. If you use the decisive strike and overwhelming attack acfs you'll get double damage on your one attack and the power attack feat. Or take invisible eye to get combat reflexes instead of pa. On top of that you can add wis to ac which isn't too bad since you might not be able to wear armor in your new form and regression will improve your wisdom some more too.

Downsides are possible alignment issues and the delayed entry into primeval.
#9
twopi
Jul 28, 2009 8:21:31 You might also look into the wilding enchant, if Primeval uses wild shape rules. This enchant lets you absorb armor and shields and the like but still keep the enchantments and AC bonus with none of the negatives, this would let you go for a form that has a bit more attack power since the equipment covers the defensives.
#10
gryfter
Jul 28, 2009 11:58:37
A lvl of monk might be helpful in your build. If you use the decisive strike and overwhelming attack acfs you'll get double damage on your one attack and the power attack feat. Or take invisible eye to get combat reflexes instead of pa. On top of that you can add wis to ac which isn't too bad since you might not be able to wear armor in your new form and regression will improve your wisdom some more too.

Downsides are possible alignment issues and the delayed entry into primeval.

I am taking a level of monk so I can get into Fist of the Forest for Con to AC, I'm going to have 45+ AC without any armor.

As for decisive strike, I'm still going to have 4 weapons most of the time, and pounce from Feral.

First turn of combat = standard to morph, move to grow claws, free to go into trance, for:
1 tail - primary (standard on creature)
2 claws - secondary (morphic weapons (move action to grow)
1 bite - functionally primary (from Fist of Forest Feral Trance)
#11
gryfter
Jul 28, 2009 15:43:03 So the ever changing build has settled on this for now, and I think it's almost complete:

Wildshape Ranger 5/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 2/Monk 1/Fist of Forest 1/Warshaper 3/Primeval (Cave Ankylosaurus) 8

Feats that matter:

Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Shock Trooper
Combat Brute
Knockback
and either Robilar's Gambit or Leap Attack

Completely non-dependent on items, and it takes me a round to buff up for battle, after which I'll have:

42 Strength
40 Con (411 HP)
24 Dex
62 AC
Pounce
5 Flurry of Blows Attacks, 4 Natural Attacks (Tail, Bite, 2 Claw) + rake/rend
15' Reach
7 AoOs for knockback control
35/18/21 saves (Steadfast Determination)
Bonus damage for knocking people into walls

Can deal a pretty good amount of damage and has quite good battlefield control.
#12
Contronym
Jul 29, 2009 20:00:50 Don't forget you also need Improved Bullrush and Improved Sunder.

You'll be huge when you morph wont you? Powerful Charge (extra 3d6 dmg) and Greater Powerful Charge (increases damage to 4d6) from the Miniatures Handbook would also fit your build well

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gryfter Jul 24, 2009 20:10:04	Making a Feral human Wildshape Ranger/Warshaper/Primeval and looking for advice on my form loosely following the guidelines of an "ancient" creature like dinosaurs or dire animals (but open to interpretation). I'm really looking for something that has a 10' reach and decent stats, especially dex (which is hard to find). I'm going for a Power Attack/Knockback with combat reflexes type build to AoO knock people around, so the reach is important. Morphic reach would give me 15'. I suppose the most optimized way is to go dire ape and use a spiked chain, but i'd really like to avoid that.
#2 pithica Jul 25, 2009 11:11:22	It doesn't have reach by default, but Fleshraker (MM3 p40) is a solid option. It has like 5 natural attacks, leaping pounce (excellent if you can pair with Leap Attack and/or Battlejump), and poison. It also has +6 nat and a Dex of 19. You can just have 'Enlarge Person' cast on you after the change for 10ft reach, or get an item with it and a Wildling Clasp (from MIC) so that you can use it whilst in wildshape (I'm pretty sure primeval uses Wildshape rules). EDIT: Oh yeah, Dire Eagles, from Races of Stone, start out with 10ft reach and I believe a 19 Dex. They can also fly (60ft Avg) and have a +5 Natural armor bonus. They only have 3 natural attacks and no pounce, though. (but I suppose pounce from Feral carries over).
#3 dyslexicfaser Jul 26, 2009 23:27:24	Behold the mighty Black Octopus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=748197), perfect for high-level sea-based campaigns.
#4 acereraklives Jul 27, 2009 4:42:37	I don't know which I love better: the awesome grappling build, or the 2 pages of arguing over whether a giant octopus counts as prehistoric :P Also, here's the handbook somebody made for the class: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1016136
#5 gryfter Jul 27, 2009 16:25:45	I think I'm going in a slightly different direction, and have settled on the Cave Ankylosaurus. No dex bonus will hurt a little with AoO's but how often are you going to be using more than 2-3 anyway? This way I'll get +10 to strength, +10 to con, and a crazy +17 to natural armor, as well as 10' reach and a good trample. With a 1 level dip in Fist of the Forest, I'll also get Con to AC, which will work well with Robilar's Gambit. Activate it, start walking through the enemies begging for them to take their AoO. One question, though, in the reading of Robilar's it doesn't say that taking those specific AoOs count against your normal total, while most other AoO feats do. Is there a ruling on this?
#6 tehlivingdeath Jul 27, 2009 17:54:48	One question, though, in the reading of Robilar's it doesn't say that taking those specific AoOs count against your normal total, while most other AoO feats do. Is there a ruling on this? It doesn't need to spell that out. Robilar's Gambit let's you AoO whoever attacks you and you can only make one AoO per round or more with Combat Reflexes. It's pretty obvious and doesn't need any ruling. And that strategy won't get you far because A) Your offensive output is gonna be pretty low and B) High AC is an inefficient way of performing the "tank" party role because enemies who can't hit you and take little damage from you will simply go after other party members. Honestly, if you want to go Primeval, grappling and/or pouncing is what the class is good at, aside from the usual Dire Ape wielding a weapon.
#7 gryfter Jul 27, 2009 18:29:55	It doesn't need to spell that out. Robilar's Gambit let's you AoO whoever attacks you and you can only make one AoO per round or more with Combat Reflexes. It's pretty obvious and doesn't need any ruling. And that strategy won't get you far because A) Your offensive output is gonna be pretty low and B) High AC is an inefficient way of performing the "tank" party role because enemies who can't hit you and take little damage from you will simply go after other party members. Honestly, if you want to go Primeval, grappling and/or pouncing is what the class is good at, aside from the usual Dire Ape wielding a weapon. I know it doesn't specifically need to call it out. It's just that most of the other AoO feats DO, and since robilar's breaks from the norm on that, it raised a flag and I thought I'd ask. Combat reflexes is a prereq for it as well, btw. I'm going the control route with 15' range (from morphic weapon) and using AoOs to knockback/stand still. Hopefully I'll still be doing "ok" damage simply by virtue of a 50ish strength score and power attacking with a strength&half weapon.
#8 gorthawar Jul 28, 2009 5:39:50	A lvl of monk might be helpful in your build. If you use the decisive strike and overwhelming attack acfs you'll get double damage on your one attack and the power attack feat. Or take invisible eye to get combat reflexes instead of pa. On top of that you can add wis to ac which isn't too bad since you might not be able to wear armor in your new form and regression will improve your wisdom some more too. Downsides are possible alignment issues and the delayed entry into primeval.
#9 twopi Jul 28, 2009 8:21:31	You might also look into the wilding enchant, if Primeval uses wild shape rules. This enchant lets you absorb armor and shields and the like but still keep the enchantments and AC bonus with none of the negatives, this would let you go for a form that has a bit more attack power since the equipment covers the defensives.
#10 gryfter Jul 28, 2009 11:58:37	A lvl of monk might be helpful in your build. If you use the decisive strike and overwhelming attack acfs you'll get double damage on your one attack and the power attack feat. Or take invisible eye to get combat reflexes instead of pa. On top of that you can add wis to ac which isn't too bad since you might not be able to wear armor in your new form and regression will improve your wisdom some more too. Downsides are possible alignment issues and the delayed entry into primeval. I am taking a level of monk so I can get into Fist of the Forest for Con to AC, I'm going to have 45+ AC without any armor. As for decisive strike, I'm still going to have 4 weapons most of the time, and pounce from Feral. First turn of combat = standard to morph, move to grow claws, free to go into trance, for: 1 tail - primary (standard on creature) 2 claws - secondary (morphic weapons (move action to grow) 1 bite - functionally primary (from Fist of Forest Feral Trance)
#11 gryfter Jul 28, 2009 15:43:03	So the ever changing build has settled on this for now, and I think it's almost complete: Wildshape Ranger 5/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 2/Monk 1/Fist of Forest 1/Warshaper 3/Primeval (Cave Ankylosaurus) 8 Feats that matter: Power Attack Combat Reflexes Shock Trooper Combat Brute Knockback and either Robilar's Gambit or Leap Attack Completely non-dependent on items, and it takes me a round to buff up for battle, after which I'll have: 42 Strength 40 Con (411 HP) 24 Dex 62 AC Pounce 5 Flurry of Blows Attacks, 4 Natural Attacks (Tail, Bite, 2 Claw) + rake/rend 15' Reach 7 AoOs for knockback control 35/18/21 saves (Steadfast Determination) Bonus damage for knocking people into walls Can deal a pretty good amount of damage and has quite good battlefield control.
#12 Contronym Jul 29, 2009 20:00:50	Don't forget you also need Improved Bullrush and Improved Sunder. You'll be huge when you morph wont you? Powerful Charge (extra 3d6 dmg) and Greater Powerful Charge (increases damage to 4d6) from the Miniatures Handbook would also fit your build well