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best magicsss

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
destined_infamy
Sep 17, 2008 13:14:44 So I've been looking at casters a lot recently, and I know a lot of people will have something to say about this because its practically half the game. So what I'm wondering is...

1)I know Ultimate Magus and Fochlocun Lyrist, but are there any other classes that give caster level increases to more then one class?

2)Favourite and/or iyo best casting class(es)?

3)Favourite and/or iyo best spells or best spells to maximize?

4) "" "" "" "" feats, items, strategies?
#2
ikildkenny
Sep 17, 2008 14:31:44 1) Mystic thurge, Arcane Hiero, others I don't Remember .. but I saw a Thread listing those recently
2) Favourite casting classes: Cleric, Beguiler, Wiz
3) Depends on charlevel: Polymorph, Shapechange, Divine Power ... and many more
4) Divine Metamgic cheese in any Aspect
#3
pithica
Sep 17, 2008 14:51:32 Very generic questions, and open-ended...but here goes...

1) Anima Magus is the only other one I can think of not already listed. Cerebramancer if you want to combine Psionics/Arcane Casting.

2) Wizard, Archivist, Druid, Cleric, Duskblade In that order, but based solely on how I play. Beguiler and Warmage are also good for their flavor.

3) Too many to list. You're better off checking the threads found here along with the handbooks for the class(es) you want to play. I don't typically maximize unless I'm playing a circle-jerk, and I don't use blast spells, but my own current personal fave's are Kelpstrand, Spell Theft, Chain Dispel, Heart of X, Bite of X, and Freezing Fog.

4) Too many to list. See above. Ultimately, it depends entirely on what you're looking to play. A wildshaped druid, 2-hander Gish, and a BSF cleric, though often played the same way (run up and hit it with a X) benefit from entirely different feats, items, and spell selections. Strategy depends entirely on the role(s) you're looking to fill in the party. Be more specific and you'll get better answers. It's also important to know how much you'll be allowed to get away with. Pun-pun is awesome, but I don't know any DM that would ever actually let a player get away with that. Then again, I also know DM's that won't allow Arcane Strike, or more than one PrC.
#4
natenate
Sep 17, 2008 17:10:34 1. Don't even worry about dual caster progressions. It doesn't matter how many spells/day or spell lists you have access to, you can still only cast one spell (and maybe one swift/quickened spell) each round. By going with only a single class's casting progression and not losing any levels of it that one spell per round you cast will be better than what you'd have access to by qualifying for a dual progression PrC.

2. Depends on the game, and what you want the character to do. Single-classed: Druid or Dread Necromancer; Multiple full casting PrCs: Cleric; Solo character/campaign: Dread Necromancer; Gish: Sorcerer; Mostly noncombat challenges: Beguiler; Versatility: Illusionist/Shadowcraft Mage. Which class the best choice would be is entirely situational based on the campaign.

3. Shivering Touch, Call Avalanche, and Iceberg from Frostburn are all game-breakingly powerful.

A Contingent Dragon Breath affected by Snowcasting, Energy Substitution: Electricity, and Born of the Three Thunders: You're Dazed upon setting it up, but not when it's triggered. For 1 round per caster level you can breathe a line of half electricity half sonic damage that has the potential to stun opponents and knock them prone every time they're hit by it.

Forget dealing damage, be Batman.

4. Metamagic Rods are some of my favorites. Every character, regardless of role or abilities, should have a Healing Belt (MiC) until they can afford a Belt of Magnificense +6 (MHB). Ring of Freedom of Movement. A Mithril Buckler has no nonproficiency penalties or arcane spell failure, and can/should be made both magical and Reflecting. A Gemstone of Heavy Fortification from the Draconomicon is more economically priced than fortifcation on armor, even considering the standard fee of 3410 gp to hire an NPC spellcaster to use Limited Wish to embed it on you, plus it's still active when your character is naked.

Feats entirely depend on the character. Divine Metamagic: Persistent with Night Sticks is always a must for a divine caster who can turn/rebuke undead, Practiced Spellcaster is always a must if you lose caster levels for multiclassing or PrCs, a few feats can be gained for free by visiting a certain location detailed in the back of the Complete Scoundrel, otherwise there's not really any general advice for this.
#5
pithica
Sep 18, 2008 9:18:01
1. Don't even worry about dual caster progressions. It doesn't matter how many spells/day or spell lists you have access to, you can still only cast one spell (and maybe one swift/quickened spell) each round. By going with only a single class's casting progression and not losing any levels of it that one spell per round you cast will be better than what you'd have access to by qualifying for a dual progression PrC.

I see this line of thought often, and just wanted to counterpoint it. While I agree that dual caster progression classes aren't often optimal, especially at early levels, there are campaigns where they not only work, and work well, but also thrive.

In any epic campaign, a multi-caster is going to have access to the same spell levels as a single caster, likely have a similar caster level for those spells, but have double (if not more than double) the options than a single caster does. I've made Ultimate Magus Builds that had a Caster Level of 30/30 at character level 30, and that's before Items.

Likewise, in endurance campaigns (where players are faced with multiple encounters/day), playing a dual caster can mean the difference between continually being a caster in a fight or being a weak little squishy with 17hp and a stick and no idea how to use it.

What's more, in some campaigns, you need options. If you're playing in a 2 or 3 person group, someone's going to have to make up for that 4th character. If you're playing under a DM, who, like me, likes to throw multiple encounter types at you, sometimes two or three in one session, you need to be ready for anything. Playing a swiss army knife with 40 spells (Wiz 20 before stat adjustments) is certainly possible (and in many, if not most, cases, I will freely admit, optimal). But, *sometimes* playing a swiss army knife with 74 spells (Dru 3/Wiz 3/MT 4/Arcane Hierophant 10 before stat adjustments), 2 spell lists, and other abilities available is better.

It isn't *always* better, or even close to always, certainly. (It certainly sucks at 7th level, and even at 11th.) So I do agree that everything should be considered before taking it. But there are games when playing a dual-caster works, and can even be the more optimal choice.
#6
destined_infamy
Sep 18, 2008 9:32:35 ooh, I see a debate brewing. Please do continue. I left this soo open ended so that people can throw anything they want in (note I said best or favourite XX) and other people can put in their two cents to either upgrade an idea, or even use it in their own, completely new build/strategy. Oh, and for that whole 'strategy' thing, I wasn't just talking about combinations of feats, I mean like in past experiences, something you did with your party to make your char more effective. Presently I've cast enlarge person permanently on the barbarian, and am now using him as a mount in battle. I'm too high up to be attacked, but being a buffzard with a few fireballs and whatnot prepared are allowing us to maximize usage of this. And that way if someone decides to dispel magic on him, I can be right there with my other enlarge person prepared to prevent him from losing his levels in War Hulk. Effective (presently) and quite humourus when we told our DM what kind of saddle we were getting custom built. He's going along with it, but it only gets interesting when one person succeeds on their reflex throw and the other fails...looks like I'm being used as a body shield from dragon's breath more often then I'd prefer, but its worth it.

Random ideas like this are what I was hoping to spread. Even as simple as a fighter with improved trip, with your druid casting that one spell that roots them to the floor and makes them immune to trip/knockdown, and gives them fast healing, while you...I dunno have some spell that if best used while the enemy is prone? Wall of fire surrounded by a wall of ice & force? I dunno, maybe someone would want to elaborate on that idea
#7
Senevri
Sep 18, 2008 13:14:40
2)Favourite and/or iyo best casting class(es)?

All with open lists are good; I am partial to focused specialists and sorcerers these days, though. Bards are also excellent. Best bad caster is Factotum, probably.

I would love to play some sort of a Psionic character, though.

3)Favourite and/or iyo best spells or best spells to maximize?

Maximize is a tarp.
Favorite spells? Color Spray, Silent Image, Ray of Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, Gate, Shapechange, Alter Self, Wall spells, Simulacrum, Astral Projection, Prying Eyes, Greater Dimension Door.... Oh, and Clairvoyance/Clairaudience. Doesn't require line of sight/line of effect. See through walls and floors.

Improvisation.
#8
pithica
Sep 18, 2008 14:12:42 1) Oops I forgot about Psychic Theurge, Eldritch Theurge, Eldritch Disciple (Psion/Cleric, Warlock/Wizard, and Warlock/Cleric respectively).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 destined_infamy Sep 17, 2008 13:14:44	So I've been looking at casters a lot recently, and I know a lot of people will have something to say about this because its practically half the game. So what I'm wondering is... 1)I know Ultimate Magus and Fochlocun Lyrist, but are there any other classes that give caster level increases to more then one class? 2)Favourite and/or iyo best casting class(es)? 3)Favourite and/or iyo best spells or best spells to maximize? 4) "" "" "" "" feats, items, strategies?
#2 ikildkenny Sep 17, 2008 14:31:44	1) Mystic thurge, Arcane Hiero, others I don't Remember .. but I saw a Thread listing those recently 2) Favourite casting classes: Cleric, Beguiler, Wiz 3) Depends on charlevel: Polymorph, Shapechange, Divine Power ... and many more 4) Divine Metamgic cheese in any Aspect
#3 pithica Sep 17, 2008 14:51:32	Very generic questions, and open-ended...but here goes... 1) Anima Magus is the only other one I can think of not already listed. Cerebramancer if you want to combine Psionics/Arcane Casting. 2) Wizard, Archivist, Druid, Cleric, Duskblade In that order, but based solely on how I play. Beguiler and Warmage are also good for their flavor. 3) Too many to list. You're better off checking the threads found here along with the handbooks for the class(es) you want to play. I don't typically maximize unless I'm playing a circle-jerk, and I don't use blast spells, but my own current personal fave's are Kelpstrand, Spell Theft, Chain Dispel, Heart of X, Bite of X, and Freezing Fog. 4) Too many to list. See above. Ultimately, it depends entirely on what you're looking to play. A wildshaped druid, 2-hander Gish, and a BSF cleric, though often played the same way (run up and hit it with a X) benefit from entirely different feats, items, and spell selections. Strategy depends entirely on the role(s) you're looking to fill in the party. Be more specific and you'll get better answers. It's also important to know how much you'll be allowed to get away with. Pun-pun is awesome, but I don't know any DM that would ever actually let a player get away with that. Then again, I also know DM's that won't allow Arcane Strike, or more than one PrC.
#4 natenate Sep 17, 2008 17:10:34	1. Don't even worry about dual caster progressions. It doesn't matter how many spells/day or spell lists you have access to, you can still only cast one spell (and maybe one swift/quickened spell) each round. By going with only a single class's casting progression and not losing any levels of it that one spell per round you cast will be better than what you'd have access to by qualifying for a dual progression PrC. 2. Depends on the game, and what you want the character to do. Single-classed: Druid or Dread Necromancer; Multiple full casting PrCs: Cleric; Solo character/campaign: Dread Necromancer; Gish: Sorcerer; Mostly noncombat challenges: Beguiler; Versatility: Illusionist/Shadowcraft Mage. Which class the best choice would be is entirely situational based on the campaign. 3. Shivering Touch, Call Avalanche, and Iceberg from Frostburn are all game-breakingly powerful. A Contingent Dragon Breath affected by Snowcasting, Energy Substitution: Electricity, and Born of the Three Thunders: You're Dazed upon setting it up, but not when it's triggered. For 1 round per caster level you can breathe a line of half electricity half sonic damage that has the potential to stun opponents and knock them prone every time they're hit by it. Forget dealing damage, be Batman. 4. Metamagic Rods are some of my favorites. Every character, regardless of role or abilities, should have a Healing Belt (MiC) until they can afford a Belt of Magnificense +6 (MHB). Ring of Freedom of Movement. A Mithril Buckler has no nonproficiency penalties or arcane spell failure, and can/should be made both magical and Reflecting. A Gemstone of Heavy Fortification from the Draconomicon is more economically priced than fortifcation on armor, even considering the standard fee of 3410 gp to hire an NPC spellcaster to use Limited Wish to embed it on you, plus it's still active when your character is naked. Feats entirely depend on the character. Divine Metamagic: Persistent with Night Sticks is always a must for a divine caster who can turn/rebuke undead, Practiced Spellcaster is always a must if you lose caster levels for multiclassing or PrCs, a few feats can be gained for free by visiting a certain location detailed in the back of the Complete Scoundrel, otherwise there's not really any general advice for this.
#5 pithica Sep 18, 2008 9:18:01	1. Don't even worry about dual caster progressions. It doesn't matter how many spells/day or spell lists you have access to, you can still only cast one spell (and maybe one swift/quickened spell) each round. By going with only a single class's casting progression and not losing any levels of it that one spell per round you cast will be better than what you'd have access to by qualifying for a dual progression PrC. I see this line of thought often, and just wanted to counterpoint it. While I agree that dual caster progression classes aren't often optimal, especially at early levels, there are campaigns where they not only work, and work well, but also thrive. In any epic campaign, a multi-caster is going to have access to the same spell levels as a single caster, likely have a similar caster level for those spells, but have double (if not more than double) the options than a single caster does. I've made Ultimate Magus Builds that had a Caster Level of 30/30 at character level 30, and that's before Items. Likewise, in endurance campaigns (where players are faced with multiple encounters/day), playing a dual caster can mean the difference between continually being a caster in a fight or being a weak little squishy with 17hp and a stick and no idea how to use it. What's more, in some campaigns, you need options. If you're playing in a 2 or 3 person group, someone's going to have to make up for that 4th character. If you're playing under a DM, who, like me, likes to throw multiple encounter types at you, sometimes two or three in one session, you need to be ready for anything. Playing a swiss army knife with 40 spells (Wiz 20 before stat adjustments) is certainly possible (and in many, if not most, cases, I will freely admit, optimal). But, sometimes playing a swiss army knife with 74 spells (Dru 3/Wiz 3/MT 4/Arcane Hierophant 10 before stat adjustments), 2 spell lists, and other abilities available is better. It isn't always better, or even close to always, certainly. (It certainly sucks at 7th level, and even at 11th.) So I do agree that everything should be considered before taking it. But there are games when playing a dual-caster works, and can even be the more optimal choice.
#6 destined_infamy Sep 18, 2008 9:32:35	ooh, I see a debate brewing. Please do continue. I left this soo open ended so that people can throw anything they want in (note I said best or favourite XX) and other people can put in their two cents to either upgrade an idea, or even use it in their own, completely new build/strategy. Oh, and for that whole 'strategy' thing, I wasn't just talking about combinations of feats, I mean like in past experiences, something you did with your party to make your char more effective. Presently I've cast enlarge person permanently on the barbarian, and am now using him as a mount in battle. I'm too high up to be attacked, but being a buffzard with a few fireballs and whatnot prepared are allowing us to maximize usage of this. And that way if someone decides to dispel magic on him, I can be right there with my other enlarge person prepared to prevent him from losing his levels in War Hulk. Effective (presently) and quite humourus when we told our DM what kind of saddle we were getting custom built. He's going along with it, but it only gets interesting when one person succeeds on their reflex throw and the other fails...looks like I'm being used as a body shield from dragon's breath more often then I'd prefer, but its worth it. Random ideas like this are what I was hoping to spread. Even as simple as a fighter with improved trip, with your druid casting that one spell that roots them to the floor and makes them immune to trip/knockdown, and gives them fast healing, while you...I dunno have some spell that if best used while the enemy is prone? Wall of fire surrounded by a wall of ice & force? I dunno, maybe someone would want to elaborate on that idea
#7 Senevri Sep 18, 2008 13:14:40	2)Favourite and/or iyo best casting class(es)? All with open lists are good; I am partial to focused specialists and sorcerers these days, though. Bards are also excellent. Best bad caster is Factotum, probably. I would love to play some sort of a Psionic character, though. 3)Favourite and/or iyo best spells or best spells to maximize? Maximize is a tarp. Favorite spells? Color Spray, Silent Image, Ray of Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, Gate, Shapechange, Alter Self, Wall spells, Simulacrum, Astral Projection, Prying Eyes, Greater Dimension Door.... Oh, and Clairvoyance/Clairaudience. Doesn't require line of sight/line of effect. See through walls and floors. Improvisation.
#8 pithica Sep 18, 2008 14:12:42	1) Oops I forgot about Psychic Theurge, Eldritch Theurge, Eldritch Disciple (Psion/Cleric, Warlock/Wizard, and Warlock/Cleric respectively).