I have built a monk with the sacred fist build that gives some versatility with spells as well sick damage but wanted to know other ideas. Thematics are not an issue. I don't want munchkin ideas but I do want to test the rules if you know what I mean. All material ok that is 3.5 except eberron, FR, and other world based materials.
All help is wanted. THANKS IN ADVANCE!!!!
-Schwarg
That said, there are dozens of incredible melee builds on this board: what do you want from your character?
The best melee build evar can be found in this thread.
That said, there are dozens of incredible melee builds on this board: what do you want from your character?
I second this opinion.
But for Epic? Lion-Totem Barbarian 2/Totemist 8/Totem Rager 10/Frenzied Berserker 10 is very good for tearing people limb from limb.
The best melee build in Epic is a full spellcaster with Epic Spellcasting.
Cause, you know... EPIC...
Monk realllly sucks in Epic.
I dunno, Perfected One nets WIS to attack and damage, you can use wounding kamas, for an example, hit 10x a round... or unarmed: Vorpal Strike + Devastating Critical.... Oh, and you have a rather decent SR and--- well, and so on and so forth.
That being said, what is the best melee-er?
- the most awesome striker with zillion hits/added damage?
- the greatest pouncing charger?
- the uber-lockdowner, tripping everyone in a mile radius?
- the one most durable, able to stay in a fight for months at a time?
Even at epic, it's hard to get all that.
Are you sure that you want to go melee? You'll be overshadowed by all those casters :S
Second'd
Your best bet would to be some sort of gish, without some sort of spellcasting you will be a complete non-factor against the epic level spellcasters.
My build would be a grey elf wizard6/swiftblade10/unseenseer4 to start out and I'd probably take levels of abjurant champion as you progress.
He's still the least impressive one, even if he does manage to do loads of damage vs. single critters every now and then.
That being said, I'm sure the casters will appreciate a meat shield. If they're not summoning elemental monoliths.
Ahh, quicken + summon = good times.
I dunno, Perfected One nets WIS to attack and damage, you can use wounding kamas, for an example, hit 10x a round... or unarmed: Vorpal Strike + Devastating Critical.... Oh, and you have a rather decent SR and--- well, and so on and so forth.
That being said, what is the best melee-er?
- the most awesome striker with zillion hits/added damage?
- the greatest pouncing charger?
- the uber-lockdowner, tripping everyone in a mile radius?
- the one most durable, able to stay in a fight for months at a time?
Even at epic, it's hard to get all that.
Thri-Kreen Crusader 20/Lion-Totem Barbarian 1? With 4 Kurisari-gamas?
Monk realllly sucks in Epic.
Monks are doable in epic.
It just requires you to take Tashalatora, and put most of your levels in a psionic class. :D
Monks are doable in epic.
It just requires you to take Tashalatora, and put most of your levels in a psionic class. :D
Or be an unarmed swordsage.
Or be an unarmed swordsage.
I second this. I wouldn't know what to do after the 20 SS levels, though.
I second this. I wouldn't know what to do after the 20 SS levels, though.
Mmmm.... packing some Crusader or Warblade on the side might be nice. Your IL is already high, and you have a fair selection for maneuvers already so you can qualify for many of the higher ones right off the bat. Otherwise, Factotum 8 / Swordsage 12 is a nice option and can probably hold its own at that level, with clear advancement options in both Factotum and Swordsage.
Mmmm.... packing some Crusader or Warblade on the side might be nice. Your IL is already high, and you have a fair selection for maneuvers already so you can qualify for many of the higher ones right off the bat. Otherwise, Factotum 8 / Swordsage 12 is a nice option and can probably hold its own at that level, with clear advancement options in both Factotum and Swordsage.
Factotum 8/Swordsage 12 isn't epic-ready, and won't be until level 28 at the very least.
Swordsage 20 is epic ready.
If you, instead of using a spiked chain, use a rope dart/meteor hamer, then you add another 5ft of reach as a medium, or 10ft of reach when enlarged.
Going from level 20 to 30, you might consider taking War Hulk. The huge drawback of this PrC is eliminated in Epic - no BAB advancement. This fact makes WH a viable option; plus the fact that you said you would often be fighting numerous baddies at once. Of course, taking all 10 levels of WH requires that you have a solid 20 level build to work from (I'd suggest one of the many optimized lockdown builds in this forum). And (I'll throw in), it makes most sense to us a spiked chain.
Even though it's not your typical Epic melee build, I think it would synergize well with a bunch of casters. Especially, since you want to keep all the baddies far away from you -- for the area spells.
Factotum 8/Swordsage 12 isn't epic-ready, and won't be until level 28 at the very least.
Swordsage 20 is epic ready.
Yes, but factotum 8 is awesome when paired with TOB. Do you know what you can do with extra standard actions?
Factotum8/Warblade1/SS1/(TOB prestige class 10) if you must be "epic ready"
Being able to spend 2 inspiration to recover all your manuvers at any time is awesome. Factotum8/Warblade1 is and excellent combo.
There are important reasons for this: Magic immune or very magic resistant monsters. Monsters have insane saves, and basically save 90% of the time at your CR. Many no-save spells have become useless because of tons of immunities. Epic spells are hardly viable because their save DCs don't progress, and they cost tons of XP to learn, and/or cast.
Any summoning except gate will quickly become obsolete.
Now melee always works. Just slog 'em about the head long enough, anything can go down. You just have to make sure about the following:
Be immune to death effects
Be immune to mind-affecting and enchantment
Be immune to crits
Be immune to Polymorph or have a very high save
Have high saves, except perhaps reflex, which is the least important.
Get tons of elemental resistances, but don't bankrupt yourself over them.
Absolutely be able to fly (if you have the money: Ring of Solar Wings from BoED. 120ft perfect is nothing to laugh at.)
Other than that, all you need is high damage and some tactical abilities.
So: Barb/FB/any TOB class. Get insane strength, use a two-handed weapon with alignment and metalline enchantment.
Of course, if you're not restricted to being good, absolutely be a cleric (and abuse greater consumptive field) or generally be a gish (and use Wraithstrike/Divine power from Arcane Disciple, AND of course Shapechange). The reason is simple: In epic, Divine Power gives you more attacks than a non-spellcaster could ever get, because it boosts your BAB to your character level. That exceeds 20, although if you read on the ELH/SRD exactly, you'll have to deduct your epic attack bonus.
So, at lvl 22 you will get a fifth attack from BAB 21+1. At lvl 30, you will have a BAB of 25 + 5 points of epic attack bonus. At lvl 32, that'll be six base iterative attacks from BAB 26+6. With Wraithstrike and high Str, these can actually all hit.
I wouldn't say that in Epic a meleer has no chance at competing with Spellcasters.
There are important reasons for this: Magic immune or very magic resistant monsters. Monsters have insane saves, and basically save 90% of the time at your CR. Many no-save spells have become useless because of tons of immunities. Epic spells are hardly viable because their save DCs don't progress, and they cost tons of XP to learn, and/or cast.
Not all monsters have all immunities. Besides, Ignore Material Components + Maw of Chaos ( or Cloudkill vs. not-poison-immunes ) + Quickened Forcecage = win.
Any summoning except gate will quickly become obsolete.
Well, Elemental Monoliths remain useful 'til lv30 or so.
Now melee always works. Just slog 'em about the head long enough, anything can go down. You just have to make sure about the following:
Pretty much, yeah. Except swarms. But those are about as common as magic-immune golems.
Be immune to death effects
Be immune to mind-affecting and enchantment
Be immune to crits
Be immune to Polymorph or have a very high save
...=Undead?
Actually, a Lumi with 100% fortification armor...
Have high saves, except perhaps reflex, which is the least important.
Mm... yeah. Most REF things won't kill you off-hand. Bombardment, though...
Get tons of elemental resistances, but don't bankrupt yourself over them.
Oh, and remember: you only have a limited amount of item slots!
High ref save + Evasion is better about 80% of time. High Touch AC will get you past... well everything besides environmental and attacks.
Absolutely be able to fly (if you have the money: Ring of Solar Wings from BoED. 120ft perfect is nothing to laugh at.)
Yep.
Other than that, all you need is high damage and some tactical abilities.
So: Barb/FB/any TOB class. Get insane strength, use a two-handed weapon with alignment and metalline enchantment.
Mmh. Still dies in Forcecage. Should do okay against most critters. Still, a--- say, 26th level combo as you suggest vs. a bunch of these...
Of course, if you're not restricted to being good, absolutely be a cleric (and abuse greater consumptive field) or generally be a gish (and use Wraithstrike/Divine power from Arcane Disciple, AND of course Shapechange). The reason is simple: In epic, Divine Power gives you more attacks than a non-spellcaster could ever get, because it boosts your BAB to your character level. That exceeds 20, although if you read on the ELH/SRD exactly, you'll have to deduct your epic attack bonus.
So, at lvl 22 you will get a fifth attack from BAB 21+1. At lvl 30, you will have a BAB of 25 + 5 points of epic attack bonus. At lvl 32, that'll be six base iterative attacks from BAB 26+6. With Wraithstrike and high Str, these can actually all hit.
Hah, yeah. Good luck getting that past your DM.
I wouldn't say that in Epic a meleer has no chance at competing with Spellcasters.
There are important reasons for this: Magic immune or very magic resistant monsters. Monsters have insane saves, and basically save 90% of the time at your CR. Many no-save spells have become useless because of tons of immunities. Epic spells are hardly viable because their save DCs don't progress, and they cost tons of XP to learn, and/or cast.
Custom spell research using untold numbers of associated spellcasters to reduce the Spellcraft DC of the spell to 0. Oh, and the Legendary Commander feat to multiply your followers by 10, also essentially multiplying the power of such epic magic by 10.
Combine that with some kind of long-duration buff spell to make yourself nigh-invulnerable and you win. You can even keep your followers on your own demiplane thanks to the Genesis spell and travel to and fro from it with Plane Shift when you need to refresh it.
Not all monsters have all immunities. Besides, Ignore Material Components + Maw of Chaos ( or Cloudkill vs. not-poison-immunes ) + Quickened Forcecage = win.
Hmm, don't forget dimensional anchor.
Well, Elemental Monoliths remain useful 'til lv30 or so.
Yeah, they might.
Pretty much, yeah. Except swarms. But those are about as common as magic-immune golems.
Which is actually strange. I guess most DMs think that swarms aren't a lot of fun to fight.
...=Undead?
Actually, a Lumi with 100% fortification armor...
Or have tons of money. Tons of money > undead.
Oh, and remember: you only have a limited amount of item slots!
High ref save + Evasion is better about 80% of time. High Touch AC will get you past... well everything besides environmental and attacks.
Multiple enchantments are really necessary in epic.
Mmh. Still dies in Forcecage. Should do okay against most critters. Still, a--- say, 26th level combo as you suggest vs. a bunch of these...
You still have to kill something you've caught in the cage.
Hah, yeah. Good luck getting that past your DM.
Umm, yeah.
Well, the question is: Where does it say that? Basically it seems any point of net BAB after deducting five from the previous maximum will give you one iterative attack. Is there a RAW limit to four iterative attacks?
There's a point about outsiders. They don't ever get more than four iterative attacks, so much is true.
There also doesn't seem to be a formula written anywhere in the PHB to actually "calculate" iterative attacks, it's all tabular, so it might be true you can't get more than 4 attacks. It's still one of those very much implied rules. It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense at all.
Hmm, I guess I don't have a very strong argument trying to have more attacks. Funny enough, my DM read it the same way I did. I've also never paid attention to how often he's been hitting with his monsters. If a monster hits me ten times, well, then I guess it must be capable of doing so. So it might be that he added iterative attacks to monsters, too, in which case it's even again - just that monsters usually get more HD.
Is there a RAW limit to four iterative attacks?
Well, creature types with a good BAB with more than 20 HD never seem to have more than 4 iterative attacks, so you tell me? I think it was some obscure part in the ELH that said it.
Well, creature types with a good BAB with more than 20 HD never seem to have more than 4 iterative attacks, so you tell me? I think it was some obscure part in the ELH that said it.
There are non-epic creatures with more than 20 BAB, but it's never mentioned why they only get four attacks. In the ELH it isn't mentioned, it only says that anything that refers to BAB should now refer to the sum of BAB + Epic Attack bonus. Which is what I've been doing with DP. The Epic attack bonus doesn't increase with DP, so obviously when BAB is raised to CL, it must be BAB + EAB.
Well, after searching, I found the bit about four attacks. It's in a bottom box on page 7 of the ELH. They just decided that more than four attacks would break the flow of the game too much, so noone gets more than four, even though in the previous paragraph it talks about BAB never rising above 20 (which clearly isn't true with DP), and therefore characters not gaining more attacks.
However, this is really an arbitrary decision, and some books, especially the TOB makes that rule very questionable. When you can make an Avalanche of Blades or a Time Stands Still maneuver, the game-play mechanism of a four-attack limit becomes really obsolete. So IMHO any DM should seriously think about removing the cap, especially if he uses TOB.
There are non-epic creatures with more than 20 BAB, but it's never mentioned why they only get four attacks. In the ELH it isn't mentioned, it only says that anything that refers to BAB should now refer to the sum of BAB + Epic Attack bonus. Which is what I've been doing with DP. The Epic attack bonus doesn't increase with DP, so obviously when BAB is raised to CL, it must be BAB + EAB.
Well, after searching, I found the bit about four attacks. It's in a bottom box on page 7 of the ELH. They just decided that more than four attacks would break the flow of the game too much, so noone gets more than four, even though in the previous paragraph it talks about BAB never rising above 20 (which clearly isn't true with DP), and therefore characters not gaining more attacks.
However, this is really an arbitrary decision, and some books, especially the TOB makes that rule very questionable. When you can make an Avalanche of Blades or a Time Stands Still maneuver, the game-play mechanism of a four-attack limit becomes really obsolete. So IMHO any DM should seriously think about removing the cap, especially if he uses TOB.
Actually, it says "A high base attack bonus never grants a creature more than four attacks with any given weapon using the full attack option." ToB grants extra attacks that have nothing to do with having a high BAB.
Actually, it says "A high base attack bonus never grants a creature more than four attacks with any given weapon using the full attack option." ToB grants extra attacks that have nothing to do with having a high BAB.
Which gets very interesting when combined with the loose wording of Perfect Multiweapon Fighting.
Perfect multiweapon Moose something (or was it?) speed weapon Time Stands Still?
That should be 14 attacks times two, for only two weapons.
[edit] Wrong, only 10 attacks on second FA.[/edit]
To improve it, the high level feats need to be redone to include Epic Expanded Knowledge (Temoral Acceleration) and Epic Expanded Knowledge (Psionic Contingency)(the latter could be dropped if any of your partymates take Craft Contingent Spell). Then get an item that lets you cast/activate an Antimagic Field. Or take Epic Expanded Knowledge (Null Psionics Field).
Depending on how your DM rules on the interaction of subdual damage and Deathless Frenzy, you might need to gain immunity to subdual damage, also.