I was thinking of a Barbarian with either Stonechild or Goliath (with monkey grip for wielding weapons 2 size category larger). Any other suggestions?
Thanks much.
I know the question may seem broad, so any other info that is needed please let me know. Going to be the only "tank type" in a group with 2 divine casters, 2 arcane casters, a rogue and a bard.
I was thinking of a Barbarian with either Stonechild or Goliath (with monkey grip for wielding weapons 2 size category larger). Any other suggestions?
Thanks much.
monkey grip doesn't work with powerful build. I'd suggest you take a look at warblade if TOB is allowed or the standard ubercharger.
If you want a lesser reliance on spells, check my Hood.
I know the question may seem broad, so any other info that is needed please let me know. Going to be the only "tank type" in a group with 2 divine casters, 2 arcane casters, a rogue and a bard.
I was thinking of a Barbarian with either Stonechild or Goliath (with monkey grip for wielding weapons 2 size category larger). Any other suggestions?
Thanks much.
I wouldn't technically qualify a Barbarian as a tank type anymore. Their defense are just too low: crap AC because of medium armor, no shield, and rage, low will save as well. Yes they can do great amounts of damage but they will drop almost every battle even with healers present. Wielding weapons with larger size categories isn't all it's cracked up to be either. At most it'll net you 1d6 (which you could get from +1 magic bonus), also Goliath has a level adjustment of +2, and Stonechild of +6. You may have good attributes but you'll have less HP, BAB (and therefore less attacks), saves, etc.
I'm lazy so I'll just say go Cleric 20. Heavy Armor, Shields, 9th level Divine Spells, Spontaneous Healing. Oh yeah, Divine Power + Righteous Might = Massive Tank. +10 Str (plus Fighter BAB which would give you 5 attacks), +2 Con and 20 temporary HP (so 60 HP), +2 Natural Armor, Damage Reduction 9/evil. That's with a 4th and a 5th level spell, not counting optimization, magic items, etc.
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-144104
It has an AC of around -30, but its still one of the best non-caster tanks, it can be further optimized but its really good as it is, if your dm rules that righteous wrath doesn't help with frenzy (since it only gives you benefits while raging) then take Steadfast Determination instead. If your party plays as one (not every man for himself), you probably don't even need Steadfast Determination, your will save can be boosted a lot by the spellcasters (Owl's Wisdom, Owl's Insight, Recitation, etc.), with that and a Crystal Mask of the Mind (or some such name, +4 bonus to will saves from MIC) for the early levels you should never miss that DC 20 will roll.
As a plus, you can forget about Amulets of Nat Armor, Ring of Protection, Armor with Enh bonus greater than +1 (you still can benefit from armor special qualities), so you have more free slots and more gp than a normal "tank".
second best -> cleric
third best -> crusader
I wouldn't technically qualify a Barbarian as a tank type anymore. Their defense are just too low: crap AC because of medium armor, no shield, and rage, low will save as well. Yes they can do great amounts of damage but they will drop almost every battle even with healers present. Wielding weapons with larger size categories isn't all it's cracked up to be either. At most it'll net you 1d6 (which you could get from +1 magic bonus), also Goliath has a level adjustment of +2, and Stonechild of +6. You may have good attributes but you'll have less HP, BAB (and therefore less attacks), saves, etc.
I'm lazy so I'll just say go Cleric 20. Heavy Armor, Shields, 9th level Divine Spells, Spontaneous Healing. Oh yeah, Divine Power + Righteous Might = Massive Tank. +10 Str (plus Fighter BAB which would give you 5 attacks), +2 Con and 20 temporary HP (so 60 HP), +2 Natural Armor, Damage Reduction 9/evil. That's with a 4th and a 5th level spell, not counting optimization, magic items, etc.
Much of the first paragraph is false. AC is not a defense. Bag of HP is a half assed defense, and Barbs at least get a lot of HP. Also, what sort of noob character actually holds a shield? Animate that ****.
Goliath's LA is 1.
As for Clerics... it's not heavy armor that makes them durable. Ditch that noob **** and get a mithril breastplate like a smart character. Get a floating shield like everyone else, and go CoDzilla. Also, +2 Con and 20 temp HP = 40, not 60.
CrusaderofLogic is correct, otherwise, though (also b/c his advice is more pertinant to the OP). He'll likely get reported, though, so his advice will vanish - Cleric, animated shield, mithril breastplate, use Righteous Might.
As long as you can die from HP damage you are not a good tank, ok thats not true, but i guess what you are looking for is somthing like this:
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-144104
It has an AC of around -30, but its still one of the best non-caster tanks, it can be further optimized but its really good as it is, if your dm rules that righteous wrath doesn't help with frenzy (since it only gives you benefits while raging) then take Steadfast Determination instead. If your party plays as one (not every man for himself), you probably don't even need Steadfast Determination, your will save can be boosted a lot by the spellcasters (Owl's Wisdom, Owl's Insight, Recitation, etc.), with that and a Crystal Mask of the Mind (or some such name, +4 bonus to will saves from MIC) for the early levels you should never miss that DC 20 will roll.
As a plus, you can forget about Amulets of Nat Armor, Ring of Protection, Armor with Enh bonus greater than +1 (you still can benefit from armor special qualities), so you have more free slots and more gp than a normal "tank".
Natural one?
Better idea, reduce their will save to the pits, make it as low as possible, then when they're done killing things, Dominate or some such will spell.
Going from a 14 to a 16 CON = +2 bonus, yes? Going from a 14 to a 16 CON = 1 HP/level, yes? 1 HP/level x 20 levels = 20HP. Add 20 temp HP to 20 HP and you get 40. If your math comes up with a different number, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.
Defenses: Displacement in various forms, as JWO said. Smacking the holy heck out of whatever is a threat before it damages you. S or D-ing the nuisance into oblivion before it gets a turn. These are REAL defenses. HP, AC, and Saves are there for when those defenses FAIL.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Crusader of Logic needs my help on this one about like Chuck Norris needs a bodyguard, but:
Going from a 14 to a 16 CON = +2 bonus, yes? Going from a 14 to a 16 CON = 1 HP/level, yes? 1 HP/level x 20 levels = 20HP. Add 20 temp HP to 20 HP and you get 40. If your math comes up with a different number, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.
Defenses: Displacement in various forms, as JWO said. Smacking the holy heck out of whatever is a threat before it damages you. S or D-ing the nuisance into oblivion before it gets a turn. These are REAL defenses. HP, AC, and Saves are there for when those defenses FAIL.
% defenses are great, but displacement becaomes useless around lvl 13 or 14 when everyone should have acces to true seeing.
Greater Blink still has that 20% chance of you being ethereal, but that is only a 20% and is not that hard to overcome.
Shadow Form has a 20% miss chance that, if i remember correcly, cannot be overcame, but you have the same penalty.
HP is not a real defense, infinite HP is a measure of defense, combined with protection from death attacks and mind-affecting, you'll be a nice tank, specially since any battlefield control spell should be taken care of by the rest of the party.
% defenses are great, but displacement becaomes useless around lvl 13 or 14 when everyone should have acces to true seeing.
Greater Blink still has that 20% chance of you being ethereal, but that is only a 20% and is not that hard to overcome.
Shadow Form has a 20% miss chance that, if i remember correcly, cannot be overcame, but you have the same penalty.
Greater Blink doesn't have the miss chance; that's Blink itself. Also, True Seeing doesn't penetrate fog effects, and it requires one to "focus" on ethereal creatures (which includes the Blink effects), so there's some stuff that can somewhat foil it.
Also:
The best defense for a long time are displacement effects (blur, displacement, mirror image, greater mirror image) and concealment effects (darkness, fog cloud, though these are generally weaker).
But, from personal experience, there's quite a few monsters even up to the EL18+ level that don't have True Seeing (mainly, its upper level outsiders that have it, which makes the utility at high level very campaign specific). Displacement from Orthos remained useful all the way to ECL18 or so in Age of Worms (which is a fairly difficult campaign, and also has a lot of outsiders in the upper levels).
Best melee class is fighter, and best race for it is Half-elf.
Obvious Troll is Obvious.
If their will save is low, they're a huge liability, both because you have to waste actions and resources on them, and because an enemy Dominate makes them moreso. If by better you meant worse, you are correct.
Inna, saves are a real defense. It's AC that isn't because you get auto hit anyways, and HP that aren't because you will die in 1-2 rounds anyways. Saves actually do help you if boosted, and if done right, you can end up with 95% resistance to many spells. Also, they are actually efficient to boost, unlike AC, such that Superior Resistance/cloak + Conviction + decent stats will give you decent saves, then throw on Spellstrike spikes or something to be sure.
True Seeing has such a short duration it's not going to be up unless it's always on (high end Outsiders only) or they know you're coming (which means you fail at high level play) or perhaps they're coming for you (you did prepare against scry and die, right)? Otherwise, they still work, unlike AC. And if they do have that, you can still alpha strike them or whatever before they get off many rockets of their own.
Now, high end Outsiders are certainly high level opponents... but so are dragons, magical beasts, and undead, along with very small numbers of the other types. Also, Outsiders are only mediocre offensively, at best. Their defenses are fairly respectable though. Not to mention Outsiders are more caster focused... and Displacement only matters against targeted effects like auto attacks and rays. So the fact they can ignore it doesn't matter, because their preferred attacks bypass it, and if they did auto attack to take advantage of your ineffective displacement, the fact their auto attack routine sucks still means you're well off.
Inna, saves are a real defense. It's AC that isn't because you get auto hit anyways, and HP that aren't because you will die in 1-2 rounds anyways. Saves actually do help you if boosted, and if done right, you can end up with 95% resistance to many spells. Also, they are actually efficient to boost, unlike AC, such that Superior Resistance/cloak + Conviction + decent stats will give you decent saves, then throw on Spellstrike spikes or something to be sure.
Granted, absolutely. A high Initiative combined with solid recon abilities are often a better defense, I think, because you splat the opponent before ever worrying about a Save. Also, Reflex Saves = meh defense given the binary nature of damage in 3.X. If I remember correctly, I'm paraphrasing you on that one.
Granted, absolutely. A high Initiative combined with solid recon abilities are often a better defense, I think, because you splat the opponent before ever worrying about a Save. Also, Reflex Saves = meh defense given the binary nature of damage in 3.X. If I remember correctly, I'm paraphrasing you on that one.
Thing is, nearly every single means of boosting saves boosts all at the same time. If you tried to boost them individually, it'd cost just as much for Fort + Will as all three. So Reflex sucks, but it's also free. And things that help you, even a little and cost nothing still check positive on the cost/benefit analysis. Also, Evasion is cheap, just in case anyone tries to nickel and dime you to death. Or one trick pony out their Wizard to actually do relevant direct damage. Either way.
Actually do relevant direct damage? A 17th level caster should be able to do an area attack of at least 300 points of damage from a type that cant be resisted or piercing the resistance (Piercing cold, Holy Fire effect, etc.) and that as a quickened action, so you better A- Counter, B- Celerity out of the way if you are a caster, or C- make that save...
...By making themselves a one trick pony. What point are you trying to make here?
...By making themselves a one trick pony. What point are you trying to make here?
That at certain point reflex saves are also save or die, thus making them worth raising.
That at certain point reflex saves are also save or die, thus making them worth raising.
Again, Reflex saves are free. Also, if the damage is that high, the solution is called the real defenses of immunity. Which you can get as Immediate actions, if you do not already have them. Taking half anyways will not cut it.
Starting race, human so you don't have to worry about xp penalties, then get Last Breath'ed as a halfling. If you prefer a different race, then keep rolling till you get that 100.
Plus the idea of AC not a real defense for me is that i don't have to roll attack to cast an Empo Max Mordenkainen's Force Missiles, or a simple Dominate Person
Last I checked, even the easy mode DMs don't just feed you free XP and loot via low level NPC Monk encounters... and against anything and EVERYTHING else, your statement is a blatant lie. After all, even the easy mode DMs throw in the occasional Fighter (still weak, but doesn't give a damn about your AC).
The only good advice in there is the bit about avoiding full attacks. Of course, the chance that you will have enough movement to do that, while still ya know, killing things is basically nil. Otherwise you're stuck spreading out your attacks real thin so you don't get 5' stepped and auto attacked, while not actually bothering the enemies at all, therefore you still Fail.
AC is not a real defense because any remotely competent opponent will either auto hit you, or bypass your AC via a different sort of attack. The ones that have full fledged competence simply need to decide how much to PA for while still auto hitting. And of course, the optimized ones will full PA and still auto hit. Meanwhile, all that cash you blew on it? Could have went towards things that actually HELP you.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArmorIsUseless
Inverted, averted, subverted, and employed straight in DungeonsAndDragons. Armor is the easiest way to get higher Armor Class, but it tops out at a certain point, and using the really heavy armor comes with drawbacks - including limitations on how much AC you can get from Dexterity (which, admittedly, doesn't matter if you happen to have low Dexterity to begin with). Meanwhile, certain characters can't use abilities except in certain kinds of armor (usually medium or light), and some characters can't wear armor at all without losing abilities. Everyone will also eventually find better (if slightly more expensive) alternatives to heavy armor, going down to the mithril breastplate, then the mithril chain shirt, then Bracers of Armor while still maintaining the same or better protection.
* However, towards the end of 3.5 Edition the more common cry was "AC is useless", exemplifying this trope since no matter what the outrageous AC your character had, the basic MM creatures had attack bonuses high enough to hit you most of the time. (There were a number of exploits in 3rd edition that allowed you to get your AC over 100, making it difficult for monsters in the epic-level handbook to hit you except on a critical, but those were mostly fixed with 3.5.) Additionally, more hit points were usually conserved by ending a fight quickly than having a higher AC, so it was better to use a two-handed weapon than carry a shield. It is possible, however to create an "animated" shield which floats in front of you to block attacks as well as you could. It's the only way shield use, and by extension "Sword and Board" combat is remotely viable. Mostly though this is just so you can get special properties on the shield without being hindered by it.
o To elaborate, AC is an incredibly expensive stat to boost. You can easily sink 300,000 gold into it and it won't matter despite being essentially maxed out as anything that cares about mundane attacks will hit you 95% of the time anyways. Anything that doesn't will use magic and magic ignores AC 100% of the time. The only reason you're even getting 5% defense is because natural 1s on the 20 sided die for attack rolls always miss no matter what. By comparison, a maxed out weapon is 200,000, and actually helps you. You only get about 760,000 total for all your equipment. On the bright side, stuff like miss chances almost always works and gives you a flat chance to avoid being hit. It's also a lot cheaper.
* The above only applies to 3rd Edition. In earlier editions, heavy metal armor was almost the only way to avoid getting hit in melee combat with powerful monsters-wizards were exceptionally vulnerable unless they found some sort of magical cloaks, bracers or rings that gave them the same protection as armor.
It depends on your campaign: AC is a mighty fine defense until about 8th level or so (arbitrarily chosen as the point when enemy spellcasters pop up).
AC isn't the worst defense, actually, but after a certain level (dependent on campaign) it matters less and less, as one can't optimize their touch AC to the same point (touch AC is actually much, much more important in the long-run). There are twinked out builds with high AC, but they generally aren't fun to play nor as effective as one might think.
It depends on your campaign: AC is a mighty fine defense until about 8th level or so (arbitrarily chosen as the point when enemy spellcasters pop up).
At level 5 and below, AC actually blocks attacks directed at it (though, other attacks still bypass it as early as level 1... Color Spray, anyone?) Beyond that, it either does nothing, or very close to nothing unless you are gimping your character heavily to get AC up... and a few levels later, it does nothing even if you are heavily gimping yourself to get AC.
Your touch AC will be lower than your normal AC, however most touch attackers also have lower accuracy to begin with. It is possible to get a touch AC good enough to block some rays, Rogue Wraithstrikers, and the like, but it would be far easier to just use Ring of Entropic Deflection + Quickness vs the ranged attacks, and SA immunity vs the Rogues and so forth than to try to get your Dex and Deflection up, Ghost Ward + Magic Vestment on multiple items, etc. Still, it is actually possible to get a relevant touch AC, therefore this is better than normal AC.
Miss chances will simply block targeted attacks, aka those attacking AC and touch AC. They can be bypassed, however there are far fewer enemies with True Seeing available, much less active than there are beatsticks that auto hit you... simply because 'beatsticks that auto hit you' can just be shortened to 'beatsticks' with no loss of meaning. Since this method of defense actually works, and is countered by far fewer things it is a far better defense.
Failing a Reflex save just means... you take slightly more damage. Yawn. You are also getting hit with these a lot less often, if for no other reason than the fact an auto attack sequence almost always contains multiple attacks, whereas only one Reflex effect per round is generally possible. This would qualify as the worst defense, except that boosting it actually does something to help you up to and including passing nearly every check, and most means of boosting saves boost all three at once, for the cost of only boosting two. Therefore, boosting Reflex saves comes as a free benefit, to the relatively cheap investment of boosting the other, meaningful saves.
Failing a Fortitude save means... you're screwed. Even if not dead outright, you're screwed heavily by poison, or Con drain, or whatever which significantly reduces your combat effectiveness, and in many cases makes you more vulnerable to further, lethal attacks. However, it is quite possible to boost saves to levels where they actually work, and doesn't require disproportionate sums to do so. See above.
Failing a Will save means... if it's only you that is screwed, you're lucky. The weakest ones merely remove you from an entire combat, or forever, if anyone decides to take advantage of the fact your AC is currently 1 + armor to make sure you stay down due to the fact you are helpless and prone, and are therefore flat footed, Dex 0, and +4 to hit you (which is the same as -4 AC). Keep in mind, this is at the level where Fortitude saves diminish, but do not eliminate your combat effectiveness, making them more dangerous by far. The better ones just remove you outright. The still better ones remove you outright, and add you to the other team. So whatever you brought to the battle, relative to what enemies bring is lost twice over. Again, see above regarding saves.
So of the six defenses, you have two that actually work, and block some really scary ****. You have one that actually works, and blocks various things. You have one that actually works, blocks some weak stuff, but is free. You have one that actually works, blocks a wide array of nasty things, and isn't too hard to get... and then you have one that is obscenely expensive and does nothing for you at all.
Yup, I agree. Hardly answers the OP, though.
Which I did in an earlier post.
Monkey Grip + balanced + Oversized 2 weapon fighting
Monkey Grip is so suboptimal it's not even funny.