Best Optimization of CORE ONLY help please! - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mltryman Dec 02, 2008 22:35:48	Hello everyone, I'm about to start playing in a core only campaign (phb, mm, and dmg). The rules are 3.5, 1d12+8 for stats, max hp per level, and a few house rules. The only non-core thing the DM is allowing at the moment is the UA variants from the d20.org SRD. With all that said and done, i'm asking for help on which classes are best to optimize and how to do so (specifics, feats, builds etc). We will be starting out at 3rd level but the above build info request will help plan out etc. Thanks in advance!
#2 pithica Dec 02, 2008 23:36:32	General suggested builds (since you didn't say what you want to play)... Druid 20--Spellcaster Melee until you get Wildshape + Natural spell, then play 'out-fight the fighter' until you get shapechange, then play 'outfight everyone but the cleric and maybe even him'. Wizard 15/Archmage 5--Play god, and mean it. Conjuror 5/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5--Alternative version of god. Feats depend entirely on what you want to play. There isn't much help for melee types, but the most optimal is the PA>Cleave>Great Cleave tree. You can go with the full TWF tree and Combat Reflexes alternatively, but you need a solid way to dish out damage in addition to weapon damage for that to work (which is all but impossible core-only, unless you go rogue-ish, and even then).
#3 jenos Dec 02, 2008 23:54:05	If you're core only, you definitely want to be a wizard. Plenty of powerful spells for a wizard with core, and UA variants only help. Wizard 3 is a great way to start out. Use the domain wizard variant instead of specialist, and go for the conjuration or transmutation domain. You basically end up with 1 decent spell extra a day without having to worry about schools to give up. If you don't want to do domain wizard definitely specialize in either conjuration or transmutation. If you do specialize it may be worth it give your familiar away, without access to the better familiar spells/feats its not that impressive. I'd go Wizard 7/Loremaster 10/Archmage 3 with the conjuration domain, or loremaster 8/archmage 5 if you want more high arcana. If you don't want to go with arcane magic, then I suggest going druid. Druid 20 is a powerful enough build to compete even with other builds later on. Also, if your DM is allowing UA variants, is he allowing everything? LA buyoff, flaws/traits, etc? Being able to take 2 flaws at level 1 could be highly worth it depending on your class.
#4 Senevri Dec 03, 2008 0:09:22	Conjurer specialist, Rapid Summoning? Illusion specialist, Chains of Disbelief? Oh! LA buyoff -> Drow or Tiefling or...
#5 mltryman Dec 03, 2008 0:43:28	Yes the DM is allowing everything from UA simply because its on the SRD site so its easy for him to look it up. Druid 20 is nice, though seems like a lot of book management for the shapeshift forms etc. I thought about spec wiz and all but then i dunno. I'm open to pretty much all suggestions.
#6 malkavon Dec 03, 2008 0:46:02	The key point here is: what do you want to do? Since you didn't provide a specification, the most optimizable class is probably the druid. Human Druid 20 - ability scores are prioritized thus: Wis->Con->Int->Cha->Dex->Str. Feats (assuming Leadership is not allowed): Spell Focus (Conjuration) (1), Improved Initiative (H), Augment Summoning (3), Natural Spell (6), Extend Spell (9), Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) (12), Spell Penetration (15), Greater Spell Penetration (18). The last three feats are pretty fluid. Actually, aside from Natural Spell, you could take Skill Focus as every other feat and still be better than virtually any other character in your party. Animal Companion: Riding Dog. Strictly better than the wolf, as the riding dog gets trip as well as better stats. At low levels, your animal companion is a better combatant than the party fighter, and with your buffs it will continue to remain competitive for many levels. Tactics: Levels 1-4: You are a spellcaster, backup melee (assuming you don't have atrocious stats), and your animal companion is likely the best fighter in the party. Use buffs on your animal companion and crowd control spells like entangle to hinder your opponents. Level 5: You get Wild Shape. You're still a spellcaster, but you can turn into the best fighter in the party when you need to. Dive into the Monster Manual, and start learning which animals (and later plants and elementals) are best suited to your needs. Remember, you replace your physical ability scores with those of the form you assume. You also get natural armor, and any gross physical attributes, such as flight. Make sure your are updated on the errata and changes to Wild Shape (they are available at the Wizards of the Coast website). Level 6+: You get Natural Spell as your 6th-level feat. From here on out, you are "da bomb diggity". This means you are in every way better than the non-spellcasting combat characters in your party (barring the cleric, if he knows what he is doing). If you go all-out and use the best forms and spells, you will utterly disgrace anyone who isn't a cleric, wizard, or another druid. After the druid, the cleric is fairly straightforward. Instead of following a god, you should pick an ideal, and get to grab your Domains from pretty much wherever. You lack some of the best domains, but several decent ones to choose from are: Trickery - polymorph any object at 8th and time stop at 9th alone make this domain worth it, plus the skills can be useful if you have a good Cha. Animal - shapechange at 9th is the reason you take this domain. Evil - if you want to be a necromancer, this domain comes in handy; much better than the death domain for this purpose. Magic - the ability to use spell trigger and spell completion items, i.e. wands and staves, from other classes is very good. Some of the spells are pretty good to have as well. Travel - the domain power is decent, and getting access to dimension door, teleport, and greater teleport is useful if you don't have a Wizard in your party. Unless you want to be a necromancer, I would suggest Trickery and Magic as the must useful domains overall. Human Cleric 20 Ability Scores should be prioritized as follows: Wis->Con->Str->Cha->Dex->Int Feats will depend greatly on what you want to do. If you want to get into melee (which you will be better at than the party fighter, and nearly as good as the druid), Power Attack, Cleave and Extend Spell are a good place to start. Improved Initiative is always a decent choice. Empower Spell, Spell Penetration (and it's greater cousin) and perhaps Spell Focus are useful if you want to focus more on offensive spellcasting. Don't worry about healing as much. It's primarily an out-of-combat activity, and can largely be handled by wands of cure light wounds there. Don't be afraid to drop a timely heal if the need come up in combat, but ideally you should be preventing damage by hindering your foes, not trying to play catch-up. Tactics Level 1-6: You can wear heavy armor and use shields. Do so. As soon as you can, get yourself into Mithril full-plate. You have nearly as good a BAB as a fighter, almost as many hit points, and you cast spells. So wade into combat and do your thing (unless your stats are horrible). Level 7+: You have access to divine power. While active, you have the BAB of a fighter of your level, extra Strength and HP, and you still cast spells and wear armor. In short, you can do everything a fighter can, and then way more. Get used to being better than everyone except maybe the druid in combat. The wizard is the hardest to really pin down, and is definitely squishier at the lower levels than the cleric and the druid. However, the power of arcane spellcasting is nearly limitless. Note that if your DM allows you to take the Domain Wizard variant, do so. Conjuration and Transmutation offer the best spell choices. If flaws are allowed, take as many as he'll let you. More feats is always a good thing. Human Conjurer 5/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5 Ability Scores: Int->Con->Dex->Cha->Wis->Str. Feats: Improved Initiative (1), Spell Focus (Conjuration) (H), Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (3), Extend Spell (5), Spell Focus (Transmutation) (6), Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) (L1), Greater Spell Focus (Transmutation) (9), Spell Penetration (12), Quicken Spell (15), Greater Spell Penetration (18) is a decent feat list for a Wizard. Craft Wondrous Item can be great, if your DM allows custom items. The best High Arcanas are, in order: Mastery of Shaping, Arcane Reach, Spell-Like Ability (pick a 9th-level spell, such as time stop), Mastery of Elements, Spell Power. Arcane Fire is not worth the spell slot you give up. For the Loremaster Secrets, the first one you take is the free feat. After than, +2 to Fort saves, +1 2nd-level spell, +2 to Will saves, +2 to Reflex saves. Your choice of familiar should be the Raven, and you should take cross-class skill ranks in Use Magic Device. Your familiar gets all the skills you do, so now it can activate wands for you when needed. If you decide to pick Improved Familiar (from the Dungeon Master's Guide), the Imp is pretty good. Tactics: You are a squishy spellcaster. This means that you let everyone else get dirty while you calmy inform reality that your side will win. Battlefield control, buffs, and debuffs should be your primary role in most combats. You lack access to some quality spells, but the PHB has lots of good spells in it. There are guides detailing the best spells for each school written by Treantmonk on this board. I suggest you hunt them down and take a read. Also, read his guide on being a God wizard for lots of great tips on how to maximize the strengths of the wizard. A lot of this is pretty general, because you didn't specify what you want to do. If you can narrow down your goals, we can be of a lot more help.
#7 carnivore Dec 03, 2008 4:06:50	in that type of campaign, there will tend to be very high Attribute Stats.... thus even martial characters can be very effective and easy to play try this: Human Ranger 6/ Fighter 4/ Horizon Walker 10 BAB +20 base saves: +16 fort/ +9 Ref/ +6 Will Feats: Improved initiative(human bonus) Track(ranger bonus) Rapid Shot(ranger bonus) Endurance(ranger bonus) Manyshot(ranger bonus) Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow)(fighter bonus) Precise Shot(fighter bonus) Weapon Specialization(Composite Longbow)(fighter bonus) 1st lvl: Point Blank Shot 3rd lvl: Weapon Finnesse 6th lvl: Dodge 9th lvl: Mobility 12th lvl: Shoot on the Run 15th lvl: Imp Precise Shot 18th lvl: Quicken Spell-like ability(Dimension Door) makes a great Archer character who is effective his entire career :D
#8 lormador Dec 03, 2008 8:47:54	How about a Cleric? Dwarves make great clerics. Observe the useful saving throw bonus and the darkvision. I now call your attention to the oft-overlooked Deeper Darkness. It has a 1 day per level duration and a huge area. It might as well say, "Blind all creatures (except creatures with darkvision) in the area of effect, no SR, no saving throw." You can cast it on some small objects, for example dull gray Ioun stones, the blades of weapons, etc. and pull several of them out from their storage containers at once, making it tedious to dispel. Give some to your half-orc fighter friend, and there's another dispel target. It's pretty easy not to get hit when you've got Deeper Darkness up and can fly (thank you Travel domain). If you expect many of your enemies will have Darkvision, play a Deep Dwarf and beat them on superior range. Taking Blindfight, or getting it free via the Darkness domain, will reduce the probability of a melee miss to 4%. There are other tempting domains, though. And hey, why not put together a party of evil darkvision characters and go human hunting? So much for their supposed superiority... they are at a major disadvantage against a Deeper Darkness equipped party. Who would expect that the flying blotch of darkness conceals a Full Plate armored dwarf? So, either Cleric 20 or Cleric 15/Thaumaturgist 5. (Hey, I like saving gold.)
#9 innabinder Dec 03, 2008 9:16:08	For a different take, based on your favorable stat generation method: Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Monk 6/Shadowdancer 10. The Denying Stance variant for Monk works pretty well for this. You'd be a mini-multipouncer.
#10 hogarth Dec 03, 2008 10:26:05	Best class variants from Unearthed Arcana: -Cloistered cleric variant -Whirling frenzy + wolf totem barbarian variant -Domain wizard variant -Battle sorcerer variant (if that's what you're into) -Prestige paladin/prestige bard
#11 phaedrusxy Dec 03, 2008 10:49:39	It might as well say, "Blind all creatures (except creatures with darkvision) in the area of effect, no SR, no saving throw." You can cast it on some small objects, for example dull gray Ioun stones, the blades of weapons, etc. and pull several of them out from their storage containers at once, making it tedious to dispel. Give some to your half-orc fighter friend, and there's another dispel target. No, it should say "make everything slightly dim", and Darkness should be renamed to Dimness. Also, Darkvision doesn't help at all. This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. All creatures in the area gain concealment (20% miss chance). Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness.
#12 ninjarabbit Dec 03, 2008 18:53:24	Necromancer wizard 20 with the skeletal minion variant
#13 ChristopherGroves Dec 03, 2008 19:05:20	Best class variants from Unearthed Arcana: -Cloistered cleric variant -Whirling frenzy + wolf totem barbarian variant -Domain wizard variant -Battle sorcerer variant (if that's what you're into) -Prestige paladin/prestige bard Adding to this ... I hate prepared casters, and love spontaneous cleric ... spontaneous spells at the cleric speed (2nd at 3rd ... 3rd at 5th ... etc.) Generic classes are also very nice Variant paladins Paragon classes
#14 mltryman Dec 03, 2008 21:42:29	wow, there's been LOTS of helpful and insightful input. I'll address a few points that might help a bit: 1) you're correct that potentially superior attribute layout will be there: These are what i rolled: 20,18,18,17,15,14 2) domain variants are allowed as they are on the UA variant section of the d20.org SRD site. 3) i love the way ..um.. i forget the fella's name, layed out various options and detailed progression for the druid, cleric, and wizardly options. 4).. From the way folks have been focusing i would assume its safe to say that the other classes apart from Wizard, Cleric, and Druid are just critter food? 5) And finally .. many of you have asked about my personal preference and i answer you with: I like to play pretty much every class provided it can be set up to be fun .. and able to DO something all throughout its career. I personally prefer casters in Core simply because its easy to smush things from a good ways out. If i were to focus on fighter types.. then yes i would probably stick with the Ranger / Ftr / Horizon build to pack pain and avoid being dead although i like the Whirling Frenzy Wolf Barbarian idea. 6) I have been toying with an idea of either being a bard or rogue .. with the Item Familiar (thus getting nice high perform and rogue skills). If i can convince the dm to allow a custom magic item for bards then i'll play one. Item would be as such: by expending a use of bardic music, the bard makes a Perform check (not sure what kind). The result of the check is the amount of damage taken, save for half damage (unsure of which save). I think the save DC would be Fort based because it would be generated via sonic waves from either the bard's vocal cords, .. his instruments strings etc. I'm hoping he'll approve it and allow a Telescoping Flute to work (telescopes out to work like a metal club or perhaps it simply be a wooden weapon the size of the club (think of a longer piccolo). Help on this part would be awesome! Let the information flow-stream continue! Thanks in advance.
#15 pithica Dec 04, 2008 10:43:08	4).. From the way folks have been focusing i would assume its safe to say that the other classes apart from Wizard, Cleric, and Druid are just critter food? 'Critter food'? No (at least, not necessarily). With the right equipment and planning, any of the core classes/prc's can stand up to almost any of the appropriate level challenges in the core MM. At least, the 'out of the book' options played in the 'out of the book' way. The problem isn't that a monk can't fight a dragon (assuming he and his party are built for it), the problem is that a Wizard can do it better (by leaps and bounds), especially in the post 10 range. The only things a fighter or whatever will normally have difficulty with are npc spellcasters, and only if your DM is playing them the way PC spellcasters are played (which most generally don't, in my experience). If your DM is the type to crack open the MM and skim the 'tactics' section and just go, then anything played well will work. If your DM is the type to manually select every spell for every dragon, and go through every spell like ability looking for the gems and using both to cover any weaknesses the monster has and tripple every strength, then your non-caster's run into trouble. I've had fun and been devastatingly successful with straight fighters in core. But 9/10ths of that is attitude and solid feat/equipment selection against DM's that didn't optimize encounters (and played them unoptimally). You can do a pretty solid Gish in Core with UA... Human Paragon 3/Fighter 2/Transmuter (lose Ench/Evo) 5/Eldritch Knight 10 (not all in exactly that order), get's you a 16 BAB and 8th level spells. Exchange Scribe Scroll for a fighter feat (UA variant) and that's potentially 7 bonus feats to put into fighter feats. Use your spells as buffs/debuffs and go. You can switch out Transmuter for Domain Wizard (I personally like Abjuration Domain, but that's just me). You'll need to go Weasel familiar to cover the poor reflex saves' though, most likely.
#16 halinn Dec 04, 2008 12:02:47	I can't believe nobody has said this, but if all UA variants in the SRD are allowed, go gestalt! :p Cleric/Druid gets buffs from the cleric combined with wildshape, and wisdom synergy Cleric or Druid/Monk gives those wisdom points added use Paladin of Tyranny+Blackguard/Sorcerer - 2x cha to saves, sor spellcasting (worse than wizard, but your saves will be great) etc.
#17 carnivore Dec 04, 2008 15:36:12	if you go with my Archer Build.... put your rolls like this: 20,18,18,17,15,14 18 Str 20 Dex 18 Con 17 Int 15 Wis 14 Cha thus @3rd lvl you look like this: Human Ranger 2/ Fighter 1 BAB +3 base saves: +5 fort/ +3 Ref/ +0 Will Initiative: +9 Combat Ranged: +3 BAB +1 WF +1 Masterwork bow +5 Dex = +10 to attack with Rapid Shot +8/+8 damage= 1d8+4 = 8 Average if you are within 30'.... gain +1 each to Attack and Damage.. from Point Blank Shot Melee: +3 BAB +1 Masterwork Rapier +5 Dex = +9 to Attack Damage = 1d6+4= 7 Average
#18 carnivore Dec 04, 2008 15:53:31	a fun way to do both Archery an Spells.... try this: Elf Elf Paragon 3/ Wizard(Martial Variant) 6/ Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 10 .... not in that order BAB +16 9th lvl Spells 17th lvl Caster Feats: Weapon Focus(Paragon Bonus) Rapid Shot(Wizard Bonus) Improved Initiative(Wizard Bonus) Precise Shot(Fighter bonus) Manyshot(Eldritch Knight bonus) 1st lvl: Point Blank Shot 3rd lvl: Weapon Finnesse 6th lvl: Dodge .... or Metamagic(Extend Spell) 9th lvl: Mobility .... or Metamagic(Quicken Spell) 12th lvl: Shoot on the Run .... or Metamagic(Empower Spell) 15th lvl: Imp Precise Shot 18th lvl: Imp Rapid Shot :D
#19 feloniousela Dec 04, 2008 20:19:37	I really like that build, Carnivore. It's too bad you couldn't squeeze in 2 levels of Arcane Archer : ) Edit: Just out of curiousity....why not stay human and go with the Human paragon? I feel like I'm missing something easy, but it seems like better skills, a +2 you could stack onto Dex, and a net gain of one feat. You could also take one skill as a class skill at every level, which could snag you UMD and access to healing items or other clerical shenanigans.
#20 pithica Dec 05, 2008 0:26:19	Edit: Just out of curiousity....why not stay human and go with the Human paragon? I feel like I'm missing something easy, but it seems like better skills, a +2 you could stack onto Dex, and a net gain of one feat. You could also take one skill as a class skill at every level, which could snag you UMD and access to healing items or other clerical shenanigans. You could, my build above his is essentially the same, just sub out one level of fighter in my build for one level of wiz and you've got 9th level spells. I have a feeling he did it for flavor reasons though...the arcane archer always bugged me as 'sucky' compared to a what a real gish is capable of. His build is...'this is a real elven archer'. I used something similar to build a 2nd Ed bladesinger once.
#21 carnivore Dec 05, 2008 3:59:40	I really like that build, Carnivore. It's too bad you couldn't squeeze in 2 levels of Arcane Archer : ) Edit: Just out of curiousity....why not stay human and go with the Human paragon? I feel like I'm missing something easy, but it seems like better skills, a +2 you could stack onto Dex, and a net gain of one feat. You could also take one skill as a class skill at every level, which could snag you UMD and access to healing items or other clerical shenanigans. thanks .... pithica has it right, mainly i like Elves... and pithica already used Human Paragon in his example btw... the feats are the same, since Elf Paragon gives Weapon Focus(a feat you need anyway) as a Bonus :D

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

mltryman

Dec 02, 2008 22:35:48

Hello everyone,
I'm about to start playing in a core only campaign (phb, mm, and dmg). The rules are 3.5, 1d12+8 for stats, max hp per level, and a few house rules. The only non-core thing the DM is allowing at the moment is the UA variants from the d20.org SRD.
With all that said and done, i'm asking for help on which classes are best to optimize and how to do so (specifics, feats, builds etc). We will be starting out at 3rd level but the above build info request will help plan out etc.
Thanks in advance!

pithica

Dec 02, 2008 23:36:32

General suggested builds (since you didn't say what you want to play)...

Druid 20--Spellcaster Melee until you get Wildshape + Natural spell, then play 'out-fight the fighter' until you get shapechange, then play 'outfight everyone but the cleric and maybe even him'.

Wizard 15/Archmage 5--Play god, and mean it.

Conjuror 5/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5--Alternative version of god.

Feats depend entirely on what you want to play. There isn't much help for melee types, but the most optimal is the PA>Cleave>Great Cleave tree. You can go with the full TWF tree and Combat Reflexes alternatively, but you need a solid way to dish out damage in addition to weapon damage for that to work (which is all but impossible core-only, unless you go rogue-ish, and even then).

jenos

Dec 02, 2008 23:54:05

If you're core only, you definitely want to be a wizard. Plenty of powerful spells for a wizard with core, and UA variants only help.

Wizard 3 is a great way to start out. Use the domain wizard variant instead of specialist, and go for the conjuration or transmutation domain. You basically end up with 1 decent spell extra a day without having to worry about schools to give up. If you don't want to do domain wizard definitely specialize in either conjuration or transmutation. If you do specialize it may be worth it give your familiar away, without access to the better familiar spells/feats its not that impressive.

I'd go Wizard 7/Loremaster 10/Archmage 3 with the conjuration domain, or loremaster 8/archmage 5 if you want more high arcana.

If you don't want to go with arcane magic, then I suggest going druid. Druid 20 is a powerful enough build to compete even with other builds later on.

Also, if your DM is allowing UA variants, is he allowing everything? LA buyoff, flaws/traits, etc? Being able to take 2 flaws at level 1 could be highly worth it depending on your class.

Senevri

Dec 03, 2008 0:09:22

Conjurer specialist, Rapid Summoning?
Illusion specialist, Chains of Disbelief?

Oh! LA buyoff -> Drow or Tiefling or...

mltryman

Dec 03, 2008 0:43:28

Yes the DM is allowing everything from UA simply because its on the SRD site so its easy for him to look it up. Druid 20 is nice, though seems like a lot of book management for the shapeshift forms etc. I thought about spec wiz and all but then i dunno. I'm open to pretty much all suggestions.

malkavon

Dec 03, 2008 0:46:02

The key point here is: what do you want to do?

Since you didn't provide a specification, the most optimizable class is probably the druid.

Human Druid 20 - ability scores are prioritized thus: Wis->Con->Int->Cha->Dex->Str.

Feats (assuming Leadership is not allowed): Spell Focus (Conjuration) (1), Improved Initiative (H), Augment Summoning (3), Natural Spell (6), Extend Spell (9), Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) (12), Spell Penetration (15), Greater Spell Penetration (18). The last three feats are pretty fluid. Actually, aside from Natural Spell, you could take Skill Focus as every other feat and still be better than virtually any other character in your party.

Animal Companion: Riding Dog. Strictly better than the wolf, as the riding dog gets trip as well as better stats. At low levels, your animal companion is a better combatant than the party fighter, and with your buffs it will continue to remain competitive for many levels.

Tactics:

Levels 1-4: You are a spellcaster, backup melee (assuming you don't have atrocious stats), and your animal companion is likely the best fighter in the party. Use buffs on your animal companion and crowd control spells like entangle to hinder your opponents.

Level 5: You get Wild Shape. You're still a spellcaster, but you can turn into the best fighter in the party when you need to. Dive into the Monster Manual, and start learning which animals (and later plants and elementals) are best suited to your needs. Remember, you replace your physical ability scores with those of the form you assume. You also get natural armor, and any gross physical attributes, such as flight. Make sure your are updated on the errata and changes to Wild Shape (they are available at the Wizards of the Coast website).

Level 6+: You get Natural Spell as your 6th-level feat. From here on out, you are "da bomb diggity". This means you are in every way better than the non-spellcasting combat characters in your party (barring the cleric, if he knows what he is doing). If you go all-out and use the best forms and spells, you will utterly disgrace anyone who isn't a cleric, wizard, or another druid.

After the druid, the cleric is fairly straightforward. Instead of following a god, you should pick an ideal, and get to grab your Domains from pretty much wherever. You lack some of the best domains, but several decent ones to choose from are:

Trickery - polymorph any object at 8th and time stop at 9th alone make this domain worth it, plus the skills can be useful if you have a good Cha.

Animal - shapechange at 9th is the reason you take this domain.

Evil - if you want to be a necromancer, this domain comes in handy; much better than the death domain for this purpose.

Magic - the ability to use spell trigger and spell completion items, i.e. wands and staves, from other classes is very good. Some of the spells are pretty good to have as well.

Travel - the domain power is decent, and getting access to dimension door, teleport, and greater teleport is useful if you don't have a Wizard in your party.

Unless you want to be a necromancer, I would suggest Trickery and Magic as the must useful domains overall.

Human Cleric 20
Ability Scores should be prioritized as follows: Wis->Con->Str->Cha->Dex->Int

Feats will depend greatly on what you want to do. If you want to get into melee (which you will be better at than the party fighter, and nearly as good as the druid), Power Attack, Cleave and Extend Spell are a good place to start. Improved Initiative is always a decent choice. Empower Spell, Spell Penetration (and it's greater cousin) and perhaps Spell Focus are useful if you want to focus more on offensive spellcasting. Don't worry about healing as much. It's primarily an out-of-combat activity, and can largely be handled by wands of cure light wounds there. Don't be afraid to drop a timely heal if the need come up in combat, but ideally you should be preventing damage by hindering your foes, not trying to play catch-up.

Tactics

Level 1-6: You can wear heavy armor and use shields. Do so. As soon as you can, get yourself into Mithril full-plate. You have nearly as good a BAB as a fighter, almost as many hit points, and you cast spells. So wade into combat and do your thing (unless your stats are horrible).

Level 7+: You have access to divine power. While active, you have the BAB of a fighter of your level, extra Strength and HP, and you still cast spells and wear armor. In short, you can do everything a fighter can, and then way more. Get used to being better than everyone except maybe the druid in combat.

The wizard is the hardest to really pin down, and is definitely squishier at the lower levels than the cleric and the druid. However, the power of arcane spellcasting is nearly limitless. Note that if your DM allows you to take the Domain Wizard variant, do so. Conjuration and Transmutation offer the best spell choices. If flaws are allowed, take as many as he'll let you. More feats is always a good thing.

Human Conjurer 5/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5
Ability Scores: Int->Con->Dex->Cha->Wis->Str.

Feats: Improved Initiative (1), Spell Focus (Conjuration) (H), Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (3), Extend Spell (5), Spell Focus (Transmutation) (6), Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) (L1), Greater Spell Focus (Transmutation) (9), Spell Penetration (12), Quicken Spell (15), Greater Spell Penetration (18) is a decent feat list for a Wizard. Craft Wondrous Item can be great, if your DM allows custom items. The best High Arcanas are, in order: Mastery of Shaping, Arcane Reach, Spell-Like Ability (pick a 9th-level spell, such as time stop), Mastery of Elements, Spell Power. Arcane Fire is not worth the spell slot you give up. For the Loremaster Secrets, the first one you take is the free feat. After than, +2 to Fort saves, +1 2nd-level spell, +2 to Will saves, +2 to Reflex saves.

Your choice of familiar should be the Raven, and you should take cross-class skill ranks in Use Magic Device. Your familiar gets all the skills you do, so now it can activate wands for you when needed. If you decide to pick Improved Familiar (from the Dungeon Master's Guide), the Imp is pretty good.

Tactics: You are a squishy spellcaster. This means that you let everyone else get dirty while you calmy inform reality that your side will win. Battlefield control, buffs, and debuffs should be your primary role in most combats. You lack access to some quality spells, but the PHB has lots of good spells in it.

There are guides detailing the best spells for each school written by Treantmonk on this board. I suggest you hunt them down and take a read. Also, read his guide on being a God wizard for lots of great tips on how to maximize the strengths of the wizard.

A lot of this is pretty general, because you didn't specify what you want to do. If you can narrow down your goals, we can be of a lot more help.

carnivore

Dec 03, 2008 4:06:50

in that type of campaign, there will tend to be very high Attribute Stats.... thus even martial characters can be very effective and easy to play

try this:

Human

Ranger 6/ Fighter 4/ Horizon Walker 10

BAB +20
base saves: +16 fort/ +9 Ref/ +6 Will

Feats:
Improved initiative(human bonus)
Track(ranger bonus)
Rapid Shot(ranger bonus)
Endurance(ranger bonus)
Manyshot(ranger bonus)
Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow)(fighter bonus)
Precise Shot(fighter bonus)
Weapon Specialization(Composite Longbow)(fighter bonus)
1st lvl: Point Blank Shot
3rd lvl: Weapon Finnesse
6th lvl: Dodge
9th lvl: Mobility
12th lvl: Shoot on the Run
15th lvl: Imp Precise Shot
18th lvl: Quicken Spell-like ability(Dimension Door)

makes a great Archer character who is effective his entire career

:D

lormador

Dec 03, 2008 8:47:54

How about a Cleric? Dwarves make great clerics. Observe the useful saving throw bonus and the darkvision. I now call your attention to the oft-overlooked Deeper Darkness. It has a 1 day per level duration and a huge area.

It might as well say, "Blind all creatures (except creatures with darkvision) in the area of effect, no SR, no saving throw." You can cast it on some small objects, for example dull gray Ioun stones, the blades of weapons, etc. and pull several of them out from their storage containers at once, making it tedious to dispel. Give some to your half-orc fighter friend, and there's another dispel target.

It's pretty easy not to get hit when you've got Deeper Darkness up and can fly (thank you Travel domain). If you expect many of your enemies will have Darkvision, play a Deep Dwarf and beat them on superior range.

Taking Blindfight, or getting it free via the Darkness domain, will reduce the probability of a melee miss to 4%. There are other tempting domains, though.

And hey, why not put together a party of evil darkvision characters and go human hunting? So much for their supposed superiority... they are at a major disadvantage against a Deeper Darkness equipped party. Who would expect that the flying blotch of darkness conceals a Full Plate armored dwarf?

So, either Cleric 20 or Cleric 15/Thaumaturgist 5. (Hey, I like saving gold.)

innabinder

Dec 03, 2008 9:16:08

For a different take, based on your favorable stat generation method:

Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Monk 6/Shadowdancer 10. The Denying Stance variant for Monk works pretty well for this. You'd be a mini-multipouncer.

#10

hogarth

Dec 03, 2008 10:26:05

Best class variants from Unearthed Arcana:

-Cloistered cleric variant
-Whirling frenzy + wolf totem barbarian variant
-Domain wizard variant
-Battle sorcerer variant (if that's what you're into)
-Prestige paladin/prestige bard

#11

phaedrusxy

Dec 03, 2008 10:49:39

It might as well say, "Blind all creatures (except creatures with darkvision) in the area of effect, no SR, no saving throw." You can cast it on some small objects, for example dull gray Ioun stones, the blades of weapons, etc. and pull several of them out from their storage containers at once, making it tedious to dispel. Give some to your half-orc fighter friend, and there's another dispel target.

No, it should say "make everything slightly dim", and Darkness should be renamed to Dimness. Also, Darkvision doesn't help at all.

This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. All creatures in the area gain concealment (20% miss chance). Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness.

#12

ninjarabbit

Dec 03, 2008 18:53:24

Necromancer wizard 20 with the skeletal minion variant

#13

ChristopherGroves

Dec 03, 2008 19:05:20

Best class variants from Unearthed Arcana:

-Cloistered cleric variant
-Whirling frenzy + wolf totem barbarian variant
-Domain wizard variant
-Battle sorcerer variant (if that's what you're into)
-Prestige paladin/prestige bard

Adding to this ...

I hate prepared casters, and love spontaneous cleric ... spontaneous spells at the cleric speed (2nd at 3rd ... 3rd at 5th ... etc.)

Generic classes are also very nice

Variant paladins

Paragon classes

#14

mltryman

Dec 03, 2008 21:42:29

wow, there's been LOTS of helpful and insightful input. I'll address a few points that might help a bit:

1) you're correct that potentially superior attribute layout will be there:
These are what i rolled: 20,18,18,17,15,14

2) domain variants are allowed as they are on the UA variant section of the d20.org SRD site.

3) i love the way ..um.. i forget the fella's name, layed out various options and detailed progression for the druid, cleric, and wizardly options.

4).. From the way folks have been focusing i would assume its safe to say that the other classes apart from Wizard, Cleric, and Druid are just critter food?

5) And finally .. many of you have asked about my personal preference and i answer you with: I like to play pretty much every class provided it can be set up to be fun .. and able to DO something all throughout its career. I personally prefer casters in Core simply because its easy to smush things from a good ways out. If i were to focus on fighter types.. then yes i would probably stick with the Ranger / Ftr / Horizon build to pack pain and avoid being dead although i like the Whirling Frenzy Wolf Barbarian idea.

6) I have been toying with an idea of either being a bard or rogue .. with the Item Familiar (thus getting nice high perform and rogue skills). If i can convince the dm to allow a custom magic item for bards then i'll play one. Item would be as such: by expending a use of bardic music, the bard makes a Perform check (not sure what kind). The result of the check is the amount of damage taken, save for half damage (unsure of which save). I think the save DC would be Fort based because it would be generated via sonic waves from either the bard's vocal cords, .. his instruments strings etc.
I'm hoping he'll approve it and allow a Telescoping Flute to work (telescopes out to work like a metal club or perhaps it simply be a wooden weapon the size of the club (think of a longer piccolo). Help on this part would be awesome!

Let the information flow-stream continue! Thanks in advance.

#15

pithica

Dec 04, 2008 10:43:08

4).. From the way folks have been focusing i would assume its safe to say that the other classes apart from Wizard, Cleric, and Druid are just critter food?

'Critter food'? No (at least, not necessarily).

With the right equipment and planning, any of the core classes/prc's *can* stand up to almost any of the appropriate level challenges in the core MM. At least, the 'out of the book' options played in the 'out of the book' way.

The problem isn't that a monk can't fight a dragon (assuming he and his party are built for it), the problem is that a Wizard can do it better (by leaps and bounds), especially in the post 10 range.

The only things a fighter or whatever will normally have difficulty with are npc spellcasters, and only if your DM is playing them the way PC spellcasters are played (which most generally don't, in my experience).

If your DM is the type to crack open the MM and skim the 'tactics' section and just go, then anything played well will work. If your DM is the type to manually select every spell for every dragon, and go through every spell like ability looking for the gems and using both to cover any weaknesses the monster has and tripple every strength, then your non-caster's run into trouble.

I've had fun and been devastatingly successful with straight fighters in core. But 9/10ths of that is attitude and solid feat/equipment selection against DM's that didn't optimize encounters (and played them unoptimally).

You can do a pretty solid Gish in Core with UA...

Human Paragon 3/Fighter 2/Transmuter (lose Ench/Evo) 5/Eldritch Knight 10 (not all in exactly that order), get's you a 16 BAB and 8th level spells. Exchange Scribe Scroll for a fighter feat (UA variant) and that's potentially 7 bonus feats to put into fighter feats. Use your spells as buffs/debuffs and go. You can switch out Transmuter for Domain Wizard (I personally like Abjuration Domain, but that's just me). You'll need to go Weasel familiar to cover the poor reflex saves' though, most likely.

#16

halinn

Dec 04, 2008 12:02:47

I can't believe nobody has said this, but if all UA variants in the SRD are allowed, go gestalt! :p
Cleric/Druid gets buffs from the cleric combined with wildshape, and wisdom synergy
Cleric or Druid/Monk gives those wisdom points added use
Paladin of Tyranny+Blackguard/Sorcerer - 2x cha to saves, sor spellcasting (worse than wizard, but your saves will be great)
etc.

#17

carnivore

Dec 04, 2008 15:36:12

if you go with my Archer Build.... put your rolls like this:

20,18,18,17,15,14

18 Str
20 Dex
18 Con
17 Int
15 Wis
14 Cha

thus @3rd lvl you look like this:

Human

Ranger 2/ Fighter 1

BAB +3
base saves: +5 fort/ +3 Ref/ +0 Will
Initiative: +9

Combat

Ranged:
+3 BAB +1 WF +1 Masterwork bow +5 Dex = +10 to attack

with Rapid Shot +8/+8

damage= 1d8+4 = 8 Average

if you are within 30'.... gain +1 each to Attack and Damage.. from Point Blank Shot

Melee:
+3 BAB +1 Masterwork Rapier +5 Dex = +9 to Attack
Damage = 1d6+4= 7 Average

#18

carnivore

Dec 04, 2008 15:53:31

a fun way to do both Archery an Spells.... try this:

Elf

Elf Paragon 3/ Wizard(Martial Variant) 6/ Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 10 .... not in that order

BAB +16
9th lvl Spells
17th lvl Caster

Feats:
Weapon Focus(Paragon Bonus)
Rapid Shot(Wizard Bonus)
Improved Initiative(Wizard Bonus)
Precise Shot(Fighter bonus)
Manyshot(Eldritch Knight bonus)
1st lvl: Point Blank Shot
3rd lvl: Weapon Finnesse
6th lvl: Dodge .... or Metamagic(Extend Spell)
9th lvl: Mobility .... or Metamagic(Quicken Spell)
12th lvl: Shoot on the Run .... or Metamagic(Empower Spell)
15th lvl: Imp Precise Shot
18th lvl: Imp Rapid Shot

:D

#19

feloniousela

Dec 04, 2008 20:19:37

I really like that build, Carnivore. It's too bad you couldn't squeeze in 2 levels of Arcane Archer : )

Edit: Just out of curiousity....why not stay human and go with the Human paragon? I feel like I'm missing something easy, but it seems like better skills, a +2 you could stack onto Dex, and a net gain of one feat. You could also take one skill as a class skill at every level, which could snag you UMD and access to healing items or other clerical shenanigans.

#20

pithica

Dec 05, 2008 0:26:19

Edit: Just out of curiousity....why not stay human and go with the Human paragon? I feel like I'm missing something easy, but it seems like better skills, a +2 you could stack onto Dex, and a net gain of one feat. You could also take one skill as a class skill at every level, which could snag you UMD and access to healing items or other clerical shenanigans.

You could, my build above his is essentially the same, just sub out one level of fighter in my build for one level of wiz and you've got 9th level spells.

I have a feeling he did it for flavor reasons though...the arcane archer always bugged me as 'sucky' compared to a what a real gish is capable of. His build is...'this is a real elven archer'. I used something similar to build a 2nd Ed bladesinger once.

#21

carnivore

Dec 05, 2008 3:59:40

I really like that build, Carnivore. It's too bad you couldn't squeeze in 2 levels of Arcane Archer : )

Edit: Just out of curiousity....why not stay human and go with the Human paragon? I feel like I'm missing something easy, but it seems like better skills, a +2 you could stack onto Dex, and a net gain of one feat. You could also take one skill as a class skill at every level, which could snag you UMD and access to healing items or other clerical shenanigans.

thanks .... pithica has it right, mainly i like Elves... and pithica already used Human Paragon in his example

btw... the feats are the same, since Elf Paragon gives Weapon Focus(a feat you need anyway) as a Bonus

:D