Pros:
-15-foot reach -- the most reach out of all melee weapons.
-Capable of trip attacks, at a range.
-+2 bonus to disarm attemps.
-Unlike other weapons with reach, it can attack people within any range that you reach (including adjacent foes).
-Allows Weapon Finesse if you're not a STR monster (and if you are, you probably don't use a whip anyways).
Cons:
-You draw attacks of opportunity for using it within melee distance.
-Only deals nonlethal damage (you can get around this if your DM allows whipdaggers; mine do because of the small damage whips deal).
-Small base damage; Crit not worth mentioning.
-Although it has a ranged weapon disadvantage, it doesn't allow you to use ranged weapon feats on it (which, frankly, you're better off without).
-I don't recall any discipline from ToB that uses whips.
It appears to me that the best tactics to employ with such a weapon consist of tripping or disarming your foe at a distance and keeping away from the guy, but I'm probably missing something here.
As for classes actually get to use whips well...
Bards get the proficiency for free, so this weapon might be a no-brainer for them. Rogues could always use the range -- the best advantage of using this over a crossbow is the fact you don't run out of ammo. Pure Fighters and Barbarians don't get much use out of whips, though Pure Fighters hardly see much use anymore, period -- and Barbarians are better off Power Attacking. Most caster classes benefit more from focusing on their spellcasting than developing a side addiction to a weapon...
I don't know my way around Fighter type PrCs so I don't know how to build around whip usage in that regard. Any comments?
I agreed to this and its seemed to make him relatively feel useful...
I know this falls outside of our usual paramaters of what "IS" in print and such but someone in my group asked if he could take the net and trident weapon style feat and apply it to the whip and sword.
I agreed to this and its seemed to make him relatively feel useful...
Hmmm, two-weapon fighting... unusual for this weapon, but sounds like it might be good.
The 3.0 Lasher is pretty good (and still legal in 3.5). If you can combine it with Pyrokineticist, even better. There's also the Tentacle Whip from Eberron (either Campaign Setting or Races I think) which is quite strong.
Drat... I knew I shouldn't have tossed out my 3.0 splatbooks.
What about ToB options? I understand every weapon-slinger gets better with ToB.
What about ToB options? I understand every weapon-slinger gets better with ToB.
Setting Sun throws work well with the whip, but there is no amazing synergy that I'm aware of.
Setting Sun throws work well with the whip, but there is no amazing synergy that I'm aware of.
Setting Sun throws are based off trip attacks, right? Aside from being able to keep your foe away, there's not much synergy to be had there.
Also, whip daggers ALWAYS deal lethal damage,no more non-lethal problem. Make sure you get to be a large creature,grab a balanced weapon and you can have a Huge sized reach. Also,even though everyone will tell you it is sub-optimal,Monkey Grip will add more reach.
Large+MG+balanced weapon=gargantuan reach. Balanced reduces the weapons size when determining ease of use,so a gargantuan whip counts as a huge whip for ability to use. A large creature can Monkey Grip a Huge weapon no problem. Now Monkey Grip does indeed suck until you start getting to very large sizes IE,Gargantuan,Collossal,ext. And there are better weapons than the whip. But doing this will net a you a huge reach. Combined with Thicket of Blades and a high Dex,you will be smacking things around,or better yet tripping them for even more AoO's. :D Oh,btw a gargantuan whip is a 3d6 weapon,as for the reach..umm,I'm believing it is 35ft. Natural 10ft reach+10ft for the whip,(as a Med is 15ft,which includes your natural reach as a medium creature),+5 for each size catagory larger than med,which is a total of +15. So,using Thicket of Blades,in a 40ft are with enemy movement of any kind provoking an AoO. Happy smacking.
Oh,and after all of that I +1 the Lasher class.
Crusader,Thicket of Blades. All movement through squares you threaten provoke an AoO,not 100% sure if you can use it with a whip,but if you can go fir it. Exotic Weapon Master will get you the ability to use a whip up close and not provoke an AoO,and Exotic Reach which lets you get an AoO unless the target has total cover.
Also, whip daggers ALWAYS deal lethal damage,no more non-lethal problem. Make sure you get to be a large creature,grab a balanced weapon and you can have a Huge sized reach. Also,even though everyone will tell you it is sub-optimal,Monkey Grip will add more reach.
Large+MG+balanced weapon=gargantuan reach. Balanced reduces the weapons size when determining ease of use,so a gargantuan whip counts as a huge whip for ability to use. A large creature can Monkey Grip a Huge weapon no problem. Now Monkey Grip does indeed suck until you start getting to very large sizes IE,Gargantuan,Collossal,ext. And there are better weapons than the whip. But doing this will net a you a huge reach. Combined with Thicket of Blades and a high Dex,you will be smacking things around,or better yet tripping them for even more AoO's. Oh,btw a gargantuan whip is a 3d6 weapon,as for the reach..umm,I'm believing it is 35ft. Natural 10ft reach+10ft for the whip,(as a Med is 15ft,which includes your natural reach as a medium creature),+5 for each size catagory larger than med,which is a total of +15. So,using Thicket of Blades,in a 40ft are with enemy movement of any kind provoking an AoO. Happy smacking.
Oh,and after all of that I +1 the Lasher class.
Somehow I've now got the mental image of the Crusader equivalent of Ivy Valentine beating the unholy -CRAP- out of everyone.
Where is Balanced from?
Crusader,Thicket of Blades. All movement through squares you threaten provoke an AoO,not 100% sure if you can use it with a whip,but if you can go fir it. Exotic Weapon Master will get you the ability to use a whip up close and not provoke an AoO,and Exotic Reach which lets you get an AoO unless the target has total cover.
Whips cannot be used to take AoO's. They act like ranged weapons in that regard
Also, whip daggers ALWAYS deal lethal damage,no more non-lethal problem. Make sure you get to be a large creature,grab a balanced weapon and you can have a Huge sized reach. Also,even though everyone will tell you it is sub-optimal,Monkey Grip will add more reach.
whip daggers are from Dragon magazine, which many DM's disallow.
If you need a lethal damage whip, look in the MIC. The water whip is quite nice.
Whips cannot be used to take AoO's. They act like ranged weapons in that regard
whip daggers are from Dragon magazine, which many DM's disallow.
If you need a lethal damage whip, look in the MIC. The water whip is quite nice.
The Exotic Reach ability of the Exotic Weapon Master allows you to make an AoO with an exotic weapon with reach. Also,the whip is a MELEE weapon that allows you to make ranged attacks with a a reach of 15ft. That still makes them melee weapons. Poor wording IMO,it should have said has a reach of 15ft,much simpler.
Whip Daggers are also in Arms and Equipment,so it wouldn't be hard to get by a DM.
I will most definitely give the +1 for this item good sir,but there is the thing about modifying specific weapons. Iffy rules and such but otherwise it is a good weapon.
@Kuroimaken: due to the fact that it doesn't threaten, the whip is generally not suitable for a "contact" melee build. Its reach is nice and allows you to initiate a throw from far away, rearranging the battlefield ; also, the damage of the throws is independent from the weapon damage (except with Improved Trip). But I did say the synergy was not that incredible.
Lastly, I would either use a whip dagger, or get a whip that deals normal damage (like lash of the sands).
How 'bout a duskblade build. Channel spells as a swift action. Not many feats but after a few levels you could start swapping a few levels of fighter in there. Shocking grasp whip, ghoul touch whip. Higher levels Vamp. Touch whip full attack action...
That's a good idea,toss in some psionic feats like Psionic Weapon,but the whip is an odd thing as while it is still a melee weapon,the attack is also (not just as mentioned by someone earlier on the thread) a ranged attack. So you'd also qualify for Psionic Shot,and therefore you'd get to take Greater Psionic Weapon & Greater Psionic Shot,so long as you pick up a psycrystal and the right feat.
Also,I'm not sure if the Duskblades ability to channel touch spells through his weapon makes the melee attack a touch attack. If not Unavoidable Strike would be a great way to make a Arcane Channeled,Greater Psionic Weaponed,Arcane Striked Whip smack o-doom.
I'm thinking that Duskblade 13/Exotic Weapon Master 2/Crusader 5 would be the best route to go for a AoO build that would seriously hurt anything. Thicket of Blades with 40ft reach anyone?
This is usually a class that I avoid because of my utter dissapointment in WOTC handling of it: the Kensai.
Make up for the whip's abhorent damage with enhancement bonuses and abilities (flaming, shocking, freezing etc...) Also, the duskblade already has concentration as a class skill so the Kensai's surge of strength is great for trip attempts.
There are also the whiplash builds (see my handy links), which intentionally use the whip to generate AoOs which in turn trigger a greater number of attacks from you via Robilar, etc.
Niccccce... Nice...
Duskblade for reasons already said,Exotic WM for reasons already said,and Kensai for the abilities. Off the top of my head I think via the Kensai I would reccomend a +1 Viscious,Psycokinetic,Sonic,Flaming Mighty(for Str bonus) whip. For a grand total of 1+2d6+1d4+1d4+1d6+Str+weapon damge. And when you start factoring in Arcane Channeling and Arcane Strike the numbers keep going highter.
That's a good idea,toss in some psionic feats like Psionic Weapon,but the whip is an odd thing as while it is still a melee weapon,the attack is also (not just as mentioned by someone earlier on the thread) a ranged attack. So you'd also qualify for Psionic Shot,and therefore you'd get to take Greater Psionic Weapon & Greater Psionic Shot,so long as you pick up a psycrystal and the right feat.
Also,I'm not sure if the Duskblades ability to channel touch spells through his weapon makes the melee attack a touch attack. If not Unavoidable Strike would be a great way to make a Arcane Channeled,Greater Psionic Weaponed,Arcane Striked Whip smack o-doom.
I'm thinking that Duskblade 13/Exotic Weapon Master 2/Crusader 5 would be the best route to go for a AoO build that would seriously hurt anything. Thicket of Blades with 40ft reach anyone?
The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack.
[...]
Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
You're probably confusing it with the 3.0 whip or the Pyrokineticist Fire Lash. Exotic Reach doesn't change the fact that you don't threaten, so you will only ever get AoOs with Robilar's Gambit. Thicket of Blades is useless.
For a 15ft threatening reach, look for the Meteor Hammer in one of the Dragon Magazines.
Now if only there was a way to make a whip that delt bludgeoning damage so the party mage could cast Greater Mighty Wallop for you,5 size increases nets a big load of damage dice to a weapon. Especially since there are sizes beyong collassal. IE collassal+,and collassal++. In this case since you're going up from gargantuan it'd be collassal++++. How many dice would that be I wonder?
Add a weight to the end of the whip? It'd take homebrewing, though.
The Exotic Reach ability of the Exotic Weapon Master allows you to make an AoO with an exotic weapon with reach. Also,the whip is a MELEE weapon that allows you to make ranged attacks with a a reach of 15ft. That still makes them melee weapons. Poor wording IMO,it should have said has a reach of 15ft,much simpler.
Whip Daggers are also in Arms and Equipment,so it wouldn't be hard to get by a DM.
I will most definitely give the +1 for this item good sir,but there is the thing about modifying specific weapons. Iffy rules and such but otherwise it is a good weapon.
If you're correct, then the Thicket of Blades + Whip combo works as long as you have enough EWM levels.
How 'bout a duskblade build. Channel spells as a swift action. Not many feats but after a few levels you could start swapping a few levels of fighter in there. Shocking grasp whip, ghoul touch whip. Higher levels Vamp. Touch whip full attack action...
It just gets yummier and yummier.
That's a good idea,toss in some psionic feats like Psionic Weapon,but the whip is an odd thing as while it is still a melee weapon,the attack is also (not just as mentioned by someone earlier on the thread) a ranged attack. So you'd also qualify for Psionic Shot,and therefore you'd get to take Greater Psionic Weapon & Greater Psionic Shot,so long as you pick up a psycrystal and the right feat.
Also,I'm not sure if the Duskblades ability to channel touch spells through his weapon makes the melee attack a touch attack. If not Unavoidable Strike would be a great way to make a Arcane Channeled,Greater Psionic Weaponed,Arcane Striked Whip smack o-doom.
I'm thinking that Duskblade 13/Exotic Weapon Master 2/Crusader 5 would be the best route to go for a AoO build that would seriously hurt anything. Thicket of Blades with 40ft reach anyone?
Doesn't Crusader come in a little too late in this build? I'm as much of a fan of not going back and forth as the next guy, but...
There are also the whiplash builds (see my handy links), which intentionally use the whip to generate AoOs which in turn trigger a greater number of attacks from you via Robilar, etc.
Aren't they quite feat-heavy, though? As I understand, Robilar is the kind of thing you pick up when you've already chosen every other defensive feat...
A Whip dagger is 1d6. I've seen worse, but a Kensai would most definitely serve the purpose here. Duskblade 13/Exotic Weapon Master 2/Kensai 5.
Duskblade for reasons already said,Exotic WM for reasons already said,and Kensai for the abilities. Off the top of my head I think via the Kensai I would reccomend a +1 Viscious,Psycokinetic,Sonic,Flaming Mighty(for Str bonus) whip. For a grand total of 1+2d6+1d4+1d4+1d6+Str+weapon damge. And when you start factoring in Arcane Channeling and Arcane Strike the numbers keep going highter.
Suddenly the duskblade seems less suicidal to me.
Exotic Reach doesn't change the fact that you don't threaten, so you will only ever get AoOs with Robilar's Gambit. Thicket of Blades is useless.
Wait... there's one thing you're failing to take in consideration. The increased reach from a bigger weapon -should- threaten the area, right?
You're probably confusing it with the 3.0 whip or the Pyrokineticist Fire Lash. Exotic Reach doesn't change the fact that you don't threaten, so you will only ever get AoOs with Robilar's Gambit. Thicket of Blades is useless.
For a 15ft threatening reach, look for the Meteor Hammer in one of the Dragon Magazines.
I'm not confusing anything,if you'd read a bit closer you'd see I say take lvls of Exotic Weapon Master to negate the AoO if you use the whip in Melee,and to gain the ability to make AoO with the weapon. Nothing changes the fact that it is a melee weapon with a 15 total reach when coupled with your own natural reach. And I'm refering to a Whip Dagger,not a whip,which says nothing about not threatening the whole area of your reach. In fact,the problem with the whip in the SRD where it says you do NOT threaten is even left out of the whip daggers description.
I also thought arrow mind or arrow storm might have interesting implications for you, but they are also worded against whip use.
I double fail.
-Allows Weapon Finesse if you're not a STR monster (and if you are, you probably don't use a whip anyways).
-I don't recall any discipline from ToB that uses whips.
Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.
Most Setting Sun maneuvers are trip attacks. Trip attacks use strength (and you always want to be a strength person, not a dex person, if you're a melee fighter). Trip attacks can be made using a whip.
See where I'm going with this?
I think I had a post on here a while back about a ToB whip master that I have in a home campaign. It's a hell of a lot of fun, and it's amusing being able to reach deep into enemy lines and comet throw their chieftain into the middle of the party, where he gets eviscerated by the party rogue.
It's combat control for fighters, really, with the ability to immobilize or move around almost any enemy within a size category or two.
Ah, here it is:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=931387
Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.
Most Setting Sun maneuvers are trip attacks. Trip attacks use strength (and you always want to be a strength person, not a dex person, if you're a melee fighter). Trip attacks can be made using a whip.
See where I'm going with this?
I think I had a post on here a while back about a ToB whip master that I have in a home campaign. It's a hell of a lot of fun, and it's amusing being able to reach deep into enemy lines and comet throw their chieftain into the middle of the party, where he gets eviscerated by the party rogue.
It's combat control for fighters, really, with the ability to immobilize or move around almost any enemy within a size category or two.
Ah, here it is:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=931387
Hey, I came here for advice, not to show off any perceived expertise I might have...
For absoulte max AoO's with the weapon I'd suggest Duskblade 13/Exotic Weapon Master 2/Crusader 5. Thicket of Blades will serve you well,and Arcane Channeling and Arcane Strike will really rack up on damage.
Duskblade 13/Exotic Weaponmaster 2/Kensai 5 is another viable option,letting you add some very nice abilities to your weapon such ass Holy,Viscious,yes Viscious is good,especially when using a Crusaders healing strikes.
A good fet to looking to would be Whirlwind attack. You'll meet the prerequisites pretty much without blinking,and if you Use a large race,or one with powerful build,and Monkey Grip a Huge sized whip with the balanced enchantment. You're reach will be insane..something like 35-40ft. Now whirlwind attack with that,after arcane channeling Vampiric Touch,and sacking a 5th lvl spell for Arcane Strike and those numbers start adding up in a hurry. In addition to this you can also still take the trip lines of feats. So you'd have the capability to destroy all the minions in the room with one attack,and then trip the BBEG for your party to evecerate.
no AoO's but you draw your 'real' weapon and take advantage of the trips/disarms.
my rouge/wiz im doing atm, the first chance i get im going to illusion over my shortsword, so it looks like a whip.
wonder if my dm will give a penalty to hit...
A good fet to looking to would be Whirlwind attack. You'll meet the prerequisites pretty much without blinking,and if you Use a large race,or one with powerful build,and Monkey Grip a Huge sized whip with the balanced enchantment. You're reach will be insane..something like 35-40ft. Now whirlwind attack with that,after arcane channeling Vampiric Touch,and sacking a 5th lvl spell for Arcane Strike and those numbers start adding up in a hurry. In addition to this you can also still take the trip lines of feats. So you'd have the capability to destroy all the minions in the room with one attack,and then trip the BBEG for your party to evecerate.
Whirlwind Attack only works with reach at Epic. Otherwise it's limited to 5 feet.
Whirlwind Attack only works with reach at Epic. Otherwise it's limited to 5 feet.
Wrong,the feat says that you make an attack against every enemy within your reach. So you'd still get to smack things around in a huge radius,but it also says you looks bonus' and extra attacks when you use the feat,so it would look like you couldn't Arcane Channel,or Arcane Strike during this time. But I am not 100% on that so.
Unless there was an errata, the Exotic Reach ability lets your AoOs with an exotic reach weapon effect opponents that have cover. It does NOT grant the ability to make attacks of opportunities if the weapon currently lacks it.
The ability is a bit poorly worded, so I suppose one could make the case that it allows the whip to make AoOs against opponents with cover - but that same strict reading would mean you could only do that on opponents with cover, and no one else.
The Exotic Reach ability from Exotic Weapon Master does NOT allow AoOs with reach weapons.
Unless there was an errata, the Exotic Reach ability lets your AoOs with an exotic reach weapon effect opponents that have cover. It does NOT grant the ability to make attacks of opportunities if the weapon currently lacks it.
The ability is a bit poorly worded, so I suppose one could make the case that it allows the whip to make AoOs against opponents with cover - but that same strict reading would mean you could only do that on opponents with cover, and no one else.
And I quote
"Exotic Reach:When using an Exotic Weapon with reach,the character may make an attack of opportunity against a foe that provokes such an attack even if that foe has cover. (But not total cover.)
The word, even, in that sentence lets us know that getting an AoO is not only possible because of the EWM's ability,but will also let him smack things around that have all but total cover.
However, you all must remember, you do not threaten opponents while using a whip. This means that Thicket of Blades does not work, since it only works on "opponents that you threaten". There's actually a lot of maneuvers and other abilities which only work on opponents you threaten, and hence, won't work for a whip.
As far a whirlwind goes, while I toyed with the notion (since tripping all opponents within 30' is pretty awesome), the fact that you can't combine it with Improved Trip, or nearly anything, for that matter, makes it not so good.
Also, don't forget about Lasher, the only prestige class especially made for whips. Unlike a lot of the early PrCs, it's actually pretty well designed, and worth taking at every level.
Right now, my whip guy is a:
Fighter 2/Crusader 3/Warblade 4/Swordsage 3/Lasher 4 (classes not sorted by the order they were taken), with double specialization in the whip, and 5th and 6th level maneuvers across all three initiator classes.
And I quote
"Exotic Reach:When using an Exotic Weapon with reach,the character may make an attack of opportunity against a foe that provokes such an attack even if that foe has cover. (But not total cover.)
The word, even, in that sentence lets us know that getting an AoO is not only possible because of the EWM's ability,but will also let him smack things around that have all but total cover.
It doesn't work. With a whip, they won't provoke, since you don't threaten any squares.
It doesn't work. With a whip, they won't provoke, since you don't threaten any squares.
This one is kinda tricky, at least where Whipdaggers are concerned (I believe it was pointed out their description made no mention of not threatening). Either way, I ask again, wouldn't the reach from it being a bigger weapon (i.E. gargantuan) threaten the foes within the "base size reach" (as in, the reach provided from it being a bigger weapon)? This one has gone unanswered so far...
As far a whirlwind goes, while I toyed with the notion (since tripping all opponents within 30' is pretty awesome), the fact that you can't combine it with Improved Trip, or nearly anything, for that matter, makes it not so good.
Why is that? You're still attacking everyone, aren't you? Why wouldn't you benefit from improved trip?
It doesn't work. With a whip, they won't provoke, since you don't threaten any squares.
A whip does not threaten,very true. But a Whip Dagger does,as the little clause on the whip that says it doesn't threaten is gone completely. So this is a RAW case,it doesn't say you don't,so therefore you do. And nothing in the basic whip's description says anything against the whip dagger not threatening.
Why is that? You're still attacking everyone, aren't you? Why wouldn't you benefit from improved trip?
Because it says in the entry that you forfeit any and all bonuses and attacks granted by spells,feats,ect.
This one is kinda tricky, at least where Whipdaggers are concerned (I believe it was pointed out their description made no mention of not threatening). Either way, I ask again, wouldn't the reach from it being a bigger weapon (i.E. gargantuan) threaten the foes within the "base size reach" (as in, the reach provided from it being a bigger weapon)? This one has gone unanswered so far...
Yes,but only for reach weapons,for every size increase of the weapon,it's reach will increase by 5ft,or in this case an extra +15ft on top of the +10(the 15 includes your natural 5ft reach).
However a whip still would not threaten as the weapon blatantly states you do not threaten,but you'd still be a-ok with a whip dagger,or the meteor hammer I think it was called from an issue of Dragon.
Because it says in the entry that you forfeit any and all bonuses and attacks granted by spells,feats,ect.
Right, I'd forgotten about that... wait, even spells? How does that figure?
Fighter: I make a Whirlwind Attack with my Mighty Walloping hammer and... why is it getting smaller?
Yes,but only for reach weapons,for every size increase of the weapon,it's reach will increase by 5ft,or in this case an extra +15ft on top of the +10(the 15 includes your natural 5ft reach).
However a whip still would not threaten as the weapon blatantly states you do not threaten,but you'd still be a-ok with a whip dagger,or the meteor hammer I think it was called from an issue of Dragon.
Well, I guess the problem is solved by using a whipdagger then.
Why is that? You're still attacking everyone, aren't you? Why wouldn't you benefit from improved trip?
Improved Trip gives you bonus attacks when you trip people.
Whirlwind doesn't let you make extra attacks.
I think it'd be better overall to just use Avalanche of Blades to trip and pound everyone in sight.
Improved Trip gives you bonus attacks when you trip people.
Whirlwind doesn't let you make extra attacks.
I think it'd be better overall to just use Avalanche of Blades to trip and pound everyone in sight.
Improved Trip does not help with a Whirlwind attack as as I've said the feat will not let you use any other feat,skill,ect when you use Whirlwind.
And Avalanche of Blades is a snare for attacks,unless you can get insane amounts to hit it is not worth it because the negatives stack far too quickly.
- isn't A&EG 3.0 ? What is the latest printing of the whip-dagger ?
If we go with your interpretation, there is little reason for the spiked chain to exist.
*later*
Reading the A&EG it still refers to the whip-dagger as a ranged weapon, meaning you wouldn't threaten in that case either.
*even later*
The latest printing is in Dragon #353 p28. The whip-dagger is treated like a whip except that it is not hindered by armor/natural armor.
Wow, it actually also deals nonlethal now. It certainly does not threaten...
- I mentioned Meteor Hammers before - they're the only way to go for 15ft threatening reach as a Medium creature without special abilities.
- isn't A&EG 3.0 ? What is the latest printing of the whip-dagger ?
If we go with your interpretation, there is little reason for the spiked chain to exist.
*later*
Reading the A&EG it still refers to the whip-dagger as a ranged weapon, meaning you wouldn't threaten in that case either.
*even later*
The latest printing is in Dragon #353 p28. The whip-dagger is treated like a whip except that it is not hindered by armor/natural armor.
Wow, it actually also deals nonlethal now. It certainly does not threaten...
Umm,no the spiked chain deals 2d4,overall better stats save for the reach on the whip.
No,it refers to it as a melee weapon capable of making a ranged attack with 15ft reach. It still does not change the fact that it is indeed a melee weapon with a 15ft reach,even if the attack in and of itself is concidered ranged. IE,throwing any melee weapon has now turned it into a ranged attack with a 10ft increment I believe is the general distance.
And I'm sorry,I do not trust Dragon on this issue. When I see an errata or something of the sort I will change my stance.
The chronology : 3.0 PHB -> A&EG -> 3.5 PHB -> Dragon 353.
In 3.0, the whips are ranged weapons (that includes the whip-dagger in the A&EG) ; in 3.5 they are melee weapons.
You are combining the absence of mention of non-threatening reach in the A&EG with the whip being a melee weapon from the 3.5 PHB while ignoring the elements you don't like (it's ranged in 3.0 so it doesn't threaten - that doesn't need to be mentioned at all) AND the update in Dragon. This is a study in acrobatics.
Wow, it gets better and better.
The chronology : 3.0 PHB -> A&EG -> 3.5 PHB -> Dragon 353.
In 3.0, the whips are ranged weapons (that includes the whip-dagger in the A&EG) ; in 3.5 they are melee weapons.
You are combining the absence of mention of non-threatening reach in the A&EG with the whip being a melee weapon from the 3.5 PHB while ignoring the elements you don't like (it's ranged in 3.0 so it doesn't threaten - that doesn't need to be mentioned at all ; it explicitly doesn't threaten in 3.5) AND the update in Dragon. This is a study in acrobatics.
Hate to break this to you but the description is the same for the 3.5 whip,it was a melee weapon that attacked as a ranged weapon. The whip dagger does not have this wording to give it the problems a whip has. Basically what we've run into is another one of the rules don't say I can't so I can't issues. Oh,and I'm not entirely sure I made myself clear. Dragon does not = official errata. Show me a link to a 3.5 update of the Arms and Equipment guide and I'll happily agree with you,but sorry if I don't accept Dragon magazine as an official 3.5 update to a true book of D&D.
If you use the A&EG, the whip-dagger is a ranged weapon : it's there both in the text and in the table. Therefore it doesn't threaten.
If you decide to take from 3.5E the fact that the whip is a melee weapon but not the fact that it doesn't threaten, fine, but don't call it RAW.
And there is a very simple solution to this problem..the Lasher prestige class grants you the ability to threaten with a whip of any kind. So snag that,even though you'll only get a reach of 5ft on that,which is redundant because 5ft of the whips reach is your reach,so it is basically giving you what you already had.
Whip
A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped.
When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.
I'll also point out that it's the interpretation commonly accepted on this board, for what it's worth.
Also if you don't have another weapon available you don't threaten to 5ft without the Lasher (the weapon can be an unarmed strike of course).
Any mention of two-handed power attacks with a fire lash yet? I can sort of imagine a mountain raging goliath barbarian leap attacking from a cliff with a giant fiery 30' whip. Make him a frostrager too, just for the heck of it. Now is there any good way to get pp other than dipping into psywar?
I guess there weren't. Though I'd think a Power Attacking guy would be better off with a higher crit weapon.
The point of PA'ing with the fire lash is that since it's a touch attack you can pretty much PA for full.
So it's basically the Wraithstrike combo with reach?
Yes. Plus fire.
Which as I understand, is a disadvantage at higher levels. Anyhow.
How about Robilar shenanigans with whips: if someone thinks they're smart attacking you with a spear (or even another whip), you trip and attack them for their folly. How about dual-wielding whips for that purpose? (Whips are one-handed, after all...)
Improved Trip does not help with a Whirlwind attack as as I've said the feat will not let you use any other feat,skill,ect when you use Whirlwind.
Uh... right. That's what I was saying. Improved Trip and Whirlwind do not combo well with each other (though just merely making the trip attacks against everyone can be kind of useful).
And Avalanche of Blades is a snare for attacks,unless you can get insane amounts to hit it is not worth it because the negatives stack far too quickly.
You miss the beauty of improved trip.
The first attack (a touch attack) doesn't miss. The bonus attack (which is a normal attack, at +4) doesn't break Avalanche of Blows.
So instead of making normal melee attacks at +30/+26/+22/etc, you're making touch attacks with that sequence, and then making the real attacks with attacks which don't break avalanche of blades.
No wraithblade cheese needed.
Hate to break this to you but the description is the same for the 3.5 whip,it was a melee weapon that attacked as a ranged weapon. The whip dagger does not have this wording to give it the problems a whip has. Basically what we've run into is another one of the rules don't say I can't so I can't issues. Oh,and I'm not entirely sure I made myself clear. Dragon does not = official errata. Show me a link to a 3.5 update of the Arms and Equipment guide and I'll happily agree with you,but sorry if I don't accept Dragon magazine as an official 3.5 update to a true book of D&D.
Hate to break it to you, but 3.5 was the errata for all things whips in 3.0.
Doesn't get much more official than that.
The A&EG whip dagger was still firmly in 3.0 territory, so it should be treated as all things 3.0 that weren't properly updated, and do the best we can. Applying the change from a ranged weapon to a reach weapon that doesn't threaten is the only way to go, IMO.
Trying to say that it becomes a melee weapon (half the change) but still threatens (ignoring the other half) seems very suspect to me.
Hate to break it to you, but 3.5 was the errata for all things whips in 3.0.
Doesn't get much more official than that.
The A&EG whip dagger was still firmly in 3.0 territory, so it should be treated as all things 3.0 that weren't properly updated, and do the best we can. Applying the change from a ranged weapon to a reach weapon that doesn't threaten is the only way to go, IMO.
Trying to say that it becomes a melee weapon (half the change) but still threatens (ignoring the other half) seems very suspect to me.
I've said my piece on this,so have fun arguing over spilt milk my friend.
Let's see now, we've already established that Setting Sun is a good discipline for Whip users, primarily focused on battlefield control (to an extent, anyway). I take it Shadow Hand is a gimme too (because of its many SA related tricks). But what about the other seven? Diamond Mind strikes me as a more defensive discipline, but it has some damn good low-level maneuvers (Insightful Strike, anyone?). Iron Heart I wouldn't know, haven't played enough with it. Nor the other disciplines, for that matter.
Which as I understand, is a disadvantage at higher levels. Anyhow.
How about Robilar shenanigans with whips: if someone thinks they're smart attacking you with a spear (or even another whip), you trip and attack them for their folly. How about dual-wielding whips for that purpose? (Whips are one-handed, after all...)
Of course, their is the variant Pyrokineticist from the Mind's Eye article that focuses on other elements besides fire.
The old Whip Lash build (should be in the Surrealdex) used Robilar's Gambit + Double Hit + a Whip to purposely give your opponents AOOs.
Of course, their is the variant Pyrokineticist from the Mind's Eye article that focuses on other elements besides fire.
The old Whip Lash build (should be in the Surrealdex) used Robilar's Gambit + Double Hit + a Whip to purposely give your opponents AOOs.
Articles have a nasty tendency to be considered only "semi-official", at least where I live. But setting that aside...
*snicker* I never really figured out much of the point of intentionally provoking AoOs until I saw that build. Now I get it, at least a little.