I have discussed this with my DM and he says I can try and optimize this as much as I can. He said that I am NOT limited to the 20HD skele that the Monster Manuel states I am and that I can optimize my max HD i can create, with Animate dead, as much as I can. Also, he stated to 'go nuts' with the avaliable corpses. If I can find in DnD 3.5, then he is ok with it. The only really limits is that I have to outfit them with their equipment as part of my starting gold. Besides that, he states that I have to follow the normal rules for turning things into a skeleton.
I have a lot of freedom and it actually is kinda daunting. That is why I have come here looking for help. So, what are people's ideas on how to get my possible creation HD for animate dead? What monster's are the best to turn into Skeleton's (remember no limit on HD)? Is it possible to keep control of a awakened corpse without using rebuking?
Thanks in advance for all of your guy's help.
Ettin Skeleton is available through Summon Undead V, which is the highest RAW Summon Undead. A quick check found this in the archives:
Osedox's Summon Undead VI through IX, which includes a Young Adult Red Dragon Skeleton.
That's one reason it'll be nice to know your DM's views on alternate movement forms.Also, in the Handy Links thread is K's necromancer handbook ... got some good info there
Also, in the MM, which the DM says I have to follow except for the HD limit, it states that the Skeleton template doesn't affect forms of movement unless it is infloving some kind of flesh tissue (i.e. A Skeletal monster can not fly unless it has a form of magical flight).
Maybe I am missing something from the spell discribition or maybe in K's handbookm, however, I was unaware that you could possibly animate an already undead creature. I thought animate dead turned a dead corpse/skeletal remains into a skeleton minon. Maybe I am worng.
Also, thank you for your help even with me no providing everything you need to help at first. :D
Awaken and other undead boosting things (like the Corpsecrafter chain) are in Libris Mortis.
I used it as a mount for one character, I called it the 'giant skateboard of doom⁚'.
That can be found in the Web Enhancement/Update for the PGTF (the one that has all the 3.5 updates for the FR Monster Compendium).
I was using the Summon Undead spells as indications of level-appropriate skeletons to animate; you cannot animate creatures that are already Undead. You can, however, Awaken them, allowing them to gain Feats and quite possibly levels. Do this.
That would be awesome, however, the DM rules that awaken undead can not be considered under my control through the spell alone. I need to either rebuke them, completely unlikely, or find another way.
If you can animate a "skeletal dragon" (see the Draconicon) and not a "dragon skeleton" (plain old PHB) it ends up with some better benefits, HD aside (although the biggest benefit, that being no HD cap, is already waived by your DM).
Awaken and other undead boosting things (like the Corpsecrafter chain) are in Libris Mortis.
The corpse crafter chain is definetly something that I noticed and have picked up on. Thank you. Again, can't controll awakened undead through the spell alone according to the DM. Is there a way too? without undead leadership?
EDIT: funny thing after carefully reading LM, the Awaken Undead spell actually states that the Skeleton does not recieve feats and skills, however, the Spell Compendium DOES! Gotta go with the SC.
Assuming he uses the RAW for Awakened Skeletons, my personal favorite is a Elder (or whatever the highest age category is) Phaerimm. It's 19HD, huge sized, has flight, and permanent true seeing/Greater Arcane Sight (as an extra-ordinary ability). It may or may not also have high level sorceror casting (it's listed as an extra-ordinary ability, but I don't know any DM insane enough to allow it).
I used it as a mount for one character, I called it the 'giant skateboard of doom⁚'.
That can be found in the Web Enhancement/Update for the PGTF (the one that has all the 3.5 updates for the FR Monster Compendium).
Awesome monster find! However, I am having a hard time finding the web enhancement you are talking about (stupid me,
) is there a link you can provide possibly? And are the Phaerimm able to advance according to their monster entry? No HD limit, might as well take advantage of it.Thanks again!
It depends entirely on what you want your undead minion to do. With Awaken Undead you can get some really great stuff. A Razor Boar (SRD, MM2) has Vorpal Tusks and Fast Healing. A Geriviar (MM3) has amazing physical attacks and special attacks, though it wouldn't get its Regeneration since nothing would be converted to nonlethal damage, according to WotC. What do you want your minion to be able to do?
I pretty open to people's ideas on what the creature can actually do, however, again, i can't take advantage of awaken undead unless there is another way to keep them under my controll outside of the spell itself. Rebuking just plain can't keep up with the HD that I can get.
I am really looking for a Tank and a bruiser. Not really interested in how it accomplishes that, more in it's ability to get that done. lol.
There are a fairly large number of methods for boosting your rebuke levels in terms of items-- I would check out some of those for controlling awakened undead. Assuming I'm remembering correctly and Master of Shrouds advances rebuke at any rate.
Yeah, master of shrouds does stack the rebuking with cleric levels, however, with just deathbound and desecreate I am already pumping out 78HD (6*CLof13) worth of animated undead. I don't know of many combos that can get my rebuking up that high. And that number of HD increases 6 at each level so it is going to be harder the higher levels I go. Just don't know if it is truely viable.
Show
Geriviar Skeleton
Size/Type: Huge Undead
Hit Dice: 26d12+52 (221 HP)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 70
Armor Class: 13 (-2 size, +2 dex, +3 nat), Touch 10, Flat-Footed 11
BAB/Grapple: +13/+32
Attack: Slam +24 melee (3d6+13)
Full Attack: 8 slams +24 melee (3d6+13) and bite +19 melee (2d6+7)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
SA: -
SQ: Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, undead traits
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +15
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 14, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: Improved Initiative
Environment: Any
Organization: Any
CR: 10
Size/Type: Huge Undead
Hit Dice: 26d12+52 (221 HP)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 70
Armor Class: 13 (-2 size, +2 dex, +3 nat), Touch 10, Flat-Footed 11
BAB/Grapple: +13/+32
Attack: Slam +24 melee (3d6+13)
Full Attack: 8 slams +24 melee (3d6+13) and bite +19 melee (2d6+7)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
SA: -
SQ: Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, undead traits
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +15
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 14, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: Improved Initiative
Environment: Any
Organization: Any
CR: 10
Awesome monster find! However, I am having a hard time finding the web enhancement you are talking about (stupid me,
Thanks again!
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a
I'm pretty sure that's it. I just googled Players Guide To Faerun Web Enhancement.
I pretty open to people's ideas on what the creature can actually do, however, again, i can't take advantage of awaken undead unless there is another way to keep them under my controll outside of the spell itself. Rebuking just plain can't keep up with the HD that I can get.
Which version of Awaken Undead are you using? The one in Spell Compendium says nothing about you losing control of the undead when its' awakened.
Now, if you're just not sure you'll have the hitdice available, try an Rod of Undead Mastery. It's in the MIC and doubles your available hit dice (to control).
Which version of Awaken Undead are you using? The one in Spell Compendium says nothing about you losing control of the undead when its' awakened.
None of them say anything about that. If you animated it with Animate Dead, it should still be under your control once you Awaken it, unless the DM houserules otherwise.
A Geriviar Skeleton even without Awaken Undead would be as follows, assuming you create it in the area of a Desecrate with an evil altar:ShowGeriviar Skeleton
Size/Type: Huge Undead
Hit Dice: 26d12+52 (221 HP)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 70
Armor Class: 13 (-2 size, +2 dex, +3 nat), Touch 10, Flat-Footed 11
BAB/Grapple: +13/+32
Attack: Slam +24 melee (3d6+13)
Full Attack: 8 slams +24 melee (3d6+13) and bite +19 melee (2d6+7)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
SA: -
SQ: Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, undead traits
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +15
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 14, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: Improved Initiative
Environment: Any
Organization: Any
CR: 10
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a
I'm pretty sure that's it. I just googled Players Guide To Faerun Web Enhancement.
Which version of Awaken Undead are you using? The one in Spell Compendium says nothing about you losing control of the undead when its' awakened.
Now, if you're just not sure you'll have the hitdice available, try an Rod of Undead Mastery. It's in the MIC and doubles your available hit dice (to control).
My DM has ruled that I can not use Awaken undead, by itself, to controll them. Don't know his full reasoning, but that is just the situation I am in. still, will check out the monster on the web enhancement. Didn't know what book it was from so had a hard time at first. Thanks
None of them say anything about that. If you animated it with Animate Dead, it should still be under your control once you Awaken it, unless the DM houserules otherwise.
Yup. That's where I'm at. House Ruled where Awakening them forces me to lose controll. Sucks but whatever.
Looks great. Where did you find this?
Thanks
Geriviar is in MM3, I just added the Skeleton template from the core MM.
Geriviar is in MM3, I just added the Skeleton template from the core MM.
Awesome. Thanks again!
Yeah, master of shrouds does stack the rebuking with cleric levels, however, with just deathbound and desecreate I am already pumping out 78HD (6*CLof13) worth of animated undead. I don't know of many combos that can get my rebuking up that high. And that number of HD increases 6 at each level so it is going to be harder the higher levels I go. Just don't know if it is truely viable.
You won't be able to control all of your undead, but you can control a few key players. You're always going to have more undead than you can rebuke after all-- rebuked undead are a separate pool from your animated undead. And if you're losing control of your awakened undead, that's freeing up more space in your pool of unintelligent animated undead.
I would second animating dragons as well though-- with the Draconomicon, they're far superior in terms of BAB to anything else you'll be able to pick up.
And if you're losing control of your awakened undead, that's freeing up more space in your pool of unintelligent animated undead.
I would second animating dragons as well though-- with the Draconomicon, they're far superior in terms of BAB to anything else you'll be able to pick up.
But it puts him at piddly HD since rebuking only works to Piddy HD.
There is of course always the Holy Arrow + Rod of Defiance Trick: RoD reduces their effective HD by 4 for rebuking. Holy Arrows give them one negative level per arrow they are holding. Doing so you can reduce their effective HD to 1 or 2, you just need enough arrows.
So after animating, you order them to hold the arrows, and rebuke your own undead, to shift it to your rebuke pool. THEN you cast Awaken, because awakening should not (even with your house-rule) remove control by rebuking. Of course you need quite a few holy arrows if you want to rebuke a creature with many HD, like dragons.
You can even control quite a few undead like this, because as with all condition checks, rebuking only checks DURING the turning check. So this undead you rebuked as a 1HD creature only occupies 1HD of your rebuking pool.
But it puts him at piddly HD since rebuking only works to Piddy HD.
There is of course always the Holy Arrow + Rod of Defiance Trick: RoD reduces their effective HD by 4 for rebuking. Holy Arrows give them one negative level per arrow they are holding. Doing so you can reduce their effective HD to 1 or 2, you just need enough arrows.
So after animating, you order them to hold the arrows, and rebuke your own undead, to shift it to your rebuke pool. THEN you cast Awaken, because awakening should not (even with your house-rule) remove control by rebuking. Of course you need quite a few holy arrows if you want to rebuke a creature with many HD, like dragons.
You can even control quite a few undead like this, because as with all condition checks, rebuking only checks DURING the turning check. So this undead you rebuked as a 1HD creature only occupies 1HD of your rebuking pool.
I agree that the low HD is what is going to kill any rebuking idea, in my opinion. However, I never really thought of the holy arrow trick. Interesting. I am curious to see if my DM will allow it (he's not a fan of 'backdoor tricks' in DnD) but if he does. Awesome!!
I was looking and I think that a Great Wyrm Red Dragon, Storm Dragon, Griever (spelling), Rust Dragon, Balor, and a Terasque are pretty much the best options I have found at the moment. What do people think of these choices? I was also thinking of a shadeling. Just for the purpose of creating potions and heals for the skeles.
Did anyone ever think of a Tarrasque? There is a web article for a 5 headed pryo Tarrasque worth 56HD. I think that might be cool. Yes? No?
Flying skeletons are better in general. Maybe you can get an advanced and/or templated Ha-Naga skeleton.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm
Additionally, if your caster level is 13 and Animate Dead can't animate any more than twice your caster level in undead HD. That means that even with the 20 HD maximum lifted, you're still limited to something 26 HD or fewer.
Additionally, if your caster level is 13 and Animate Dead can't animate any more than twice your caster level in undead HD. That means that even with the 20 HD maximum lifted, you're still limited to something 26 HD or fewer.
Nitpick: it is 4xCL in a desecrated area, and there are quite a few ways to boost CL, especially as a cleric.