Best Rogue Book? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 NecessaryWeevil Jan 26, 2013 16:42:54	Hey you clever people, I'm in a game with a large number of players and a new DM (yeah, I know...) and I am playing a pregenerated rogue. I don't know rogues very well so I thought I'd ask you advice so I don't overlook something. I have good but not amazing rogue-appropriate stats (Dex, Int, Con) and my feats are Stealthy and Weapon Finesse. I don't want to ask the DM to retcon any of that. My primary goal is stealth - I want to find danger before it finds me and my allies. This means good stealth and perception, ability to spot and disarm traps, and perhaps the ability to take out lone sentries. Combat skill is not a high priority but I don't want to shun it completely. Escapability and survivability are my main combat priorities. My question is - given the situation, I don't want to overwhelm the DM and outshine my fellow players with lots of crazy classes and rules, so can you suggest one book outside the PHB and DMG that I should ask for permission to use? I am thinking perhaps Complete Adventurer for Dungeon Delver. Thanks!
#2 draco1119 Jan 26, 2013 16:52:27	Complete Adventurer and/or Complete Scoundrel would be your best bets.
#3 StevenO Jan 26, 2013 17:02:22	I guess I'd also go with the Complete Adventurer although there are classes in other books I'd consider.
#4 EruditeApe Jan 26, 2013 17:35:53	Tome of Battle
#5 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 26, 2013 17:43:12	Tome of Battle Normally I would say this emphatically (and twice on Sunday). The only reason I hesitate is "New DM" with "pregen characters" - suddenly pulling something that gamechanging might not be all that wise. Of course, the parts you'd need on a straight rogue are minor: mostly a handful of Shadow Hand maneuvers (so maybe a handful of martial studies, a martial stance, and a few magic items would work even if you don't dip into swordsage). This might make its impact a bit more manageable, and if you can do THAT, then you've got one of the best books in D&D for nonspellcasters. If the TOB is not an option, pick Scoundrel or Adventurer. Dungeonscape provides you with the Factotum, which is kind of like a super-rogue that can also pass (for a short while) in other people's jobs as well. If Multiclassing's an option, that's a good call.
#6 vortsukoto Jan 26, 2013 18:58:41	I would vote Complete Scoundrel. That will give you feats and equipment that won't overwhelm your DM. My second vote would be for Complete Adventurer. It's not as broad as CS but is a lot better of keeping characters power at around their level than these other options. Dungonescape has a lot of bizarre options and is going to give you a breadth of tactics FAR more than what a new DM will ever throw at you. Tome of Battle does for the unprepared DM like the invention of the machine gun did to 19th century battle tactics. It's fine if that's the new standard you hold yourself to, but isn't exactly what the game is built around.
#7 EruditeApe Jan 26, 2013 19:31:26	He's playing a rogue. Rogue as in dramatically inferior to paladins, and probabably even monks in such a limited environment. He needs all the help he can get.
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 26, 2013 19:32:38	Tome of Battle does for the unprepared DM like the invention of the machine gun did to 19th century battle tactics. It's fine if that's the new standard you hold yourself to, but isn't exactly what the game is built around. A better example would probably be the pike square. The last Duke of Burgundy brought in what was thought to be the pinnacle of warfare at the time - fully armored mounted knights - on an invasion into Switzerland. However, the simple effectiveness of the pike square - a formation that soundly defeated the Duke - changed the face of European warfare by showing that large infantry armies were the way to go. They never completely dropped the cavalry, but no longer were they stuck depending entirely upon it. Armies became flexible and diverse rather than rigid and aristocratic. Or, to be brief, the Tome puts melee roughly where it probably should have been right out of the get go. He's playing a rogue. Rogue as in dramatically inferior to paladins, and probabably even monks in such a limited environment. He needs all the help he can get. I was more concerned about the "new DM" bringing about a backlash rather than the rogue himself.
#9 Krusk Jan 27, 2013 8:36:51	I like the complete adventurer and scoundrel, but I want to throw an alternative out there. Arms and equipment guide or dungeonscape. Both books are packed with neat rouge like items and tools. Plus its got stuff for the other players, so they will love that you brought them.
#10 awaken_D_M_golem Jan 27, 2013 15:15:26	Human Rogue 1 / Wizard 19 w Able Learner feat Standard build, pick mostly sneaky stuff ... and just a hint of the juicy bits.
#11 Andarious-Rosethorn Jan 27, 2013 18:34:48	If you're at all interested in doming something like Wiz/Rogue combo, consider doing it with Complete Scoundrel, the Unseen Seer does just what you suggest. It's an uberstealth (IE magic user/rogue) character that also concentrates on perception and divination. It progresses Base attack bonus better than Arcane Trixter and has easier requirements to reach. The spellcasting's as good with some neat tricks to make it better in some ways, and the sneak attack is only one die less.
#12 piggyknowles Jan 27, 2013 22:20:45	Jumping on the bandwagon and saying Complete Scoundrel is the best book for you. Why? Equipment. There's a lot of fun gear for rogue-types, and the mundane equipment section is especially choice. Probably tied with Dungeonscape for the most useful mundane equipment for the handy rogue. Skill tricks. They are insanely useful. Put those 8 skill points/level to work! Spot invisible enemies to target with flour pouches, make your attacks as touch attacks, attack someone without them noticing, climb while leaving your hands free, perform crazy tumble tricks - these are just a few of the things skill tricks let you do. Seriously, they're a real boon to the roguish types, and they're a lot of fun. (Basically, they're expanded uses of skills that you can use 1/encounter by spending two skill points to learn them. There are quite a few of them, and it's worth reading through them all.) The Uncanny Trickster prestige class. It's probably my favorite non-casting prestige class for a rogue. It gives you 8 SP/level, all skills as class skills, and progresses your actual rogue levels by two - so you'll go up in sneak die, gain new rogue special abilities, etc. It also gives you three bonus skill tricks, and lets you use some of your skill tricks twice an encounter. It's not crazy but it's super easy to qualify for and basically acts like rogue+ for you. Unseen Seer and Combat Trapsmith, for two different takes on roguish prestige classes if you're going for a different sort of rogue. The former is a much classier version of the arcane trickster. The latter lets you set traps in combat. The Combat Trapsmith's got some flaws - the DCs don't scale as well as they should, it requires craft (alchemy) to set many of your traps and yet doesn't let you create alchemical items, and the fact that you can only set them at ground level annoys me - but it's still a supremely cool concept, and the trap list is quite nice. Dungeonscape is a close second - factotums usually make better rogues than the actual rogue class, it also has cool mundane items, and Dungeonscape's Trapsmith class is almost certainly strictly better than CSco's Combat Trapsmith thanks to its spells, even if I like the Combat Trapsmith more. But there's more player content in general in Complete Scoundrel, and skill tricks are just too good to pass up.
#13 EruditeApe Jan 27, 2013 22:23:37	If ToB is off the table, and just replacing rogue with rogue-that-actually-works is not an option either, then I must suggest Magic Item Compendium. Make it so you're actually capable of doing even just a few things. Remember to max UMD.
#14 Andarious-Rosethorn Jan 28, 2013 14:18:15	Ooo, slick pick EA. It's like Spell Compendium, but for everyone.
#15 awaken_D_M_golem Jan 28, 2013 17:15:50	I wonder what a Single book Nanobots build, would look like? It would be sneaky.
#16 NecessaryWeevil Feb 07, 2013 23:01:21	OK, I'm approaching second level and I opened Complete Scoundrel to take a look....I don't see Unseen Seer. Isn't that in Complete Mage?
#17 StevenO Feb 07, 2013 23:09:43	Unseen Seer is in the Complete Mage. Personally, I'd also make some alterations to the Arcane Trickster class which really should have been done when it was promoted in 3.5.
#18 Andarious-Rosethorn Feb 07, 2013 23:46:38	Yeah, my bad. I don't know what I was thinking when I referenced that prc in the wrong book. Doh.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

NecessaryWeevil

Jan 26, 2013 16:42:54

Hey you clever people,

I'm in a game with a large number of players and a new DM (yeah, I know...) and I am playing a pregenerated rogue. I don't know rogues very well so I thought I'd ask you advice so I don't overlook something. I have good but not amazing rogue-appropriate stats (Dex, Int, Con) and my feats are Stealthy and Weapon Finesse. I don't want to ask the DM to retcon any of that.

My primary goal is stealth - I want to find danger before it finds me and my allies. This means good stealth and perception, ability to spot and disarm traps, and perhaps the ability to take out lone sentries. Combat skill is not a high priority but I don't want to shun it completely. Escapability and survivability are my main combat priorities.

My question is - given the situation, I don't want to overwhelm the DM and outshine my fellow players with lots of crazy classes and rules, so can you suggest one book outside the PHB and DMG that I should ask for permission to use? I am thinking perhaps Complete Adventurer for Dungeon Delver.

Thanks!

draco1119

Jan 26, 2013 16:52:27

Complete Adventurer and/or Complete Scoundrel would be your best bets.

StevenO

Jan 26, 2013 17:02:22

I guess I'd also go with the Complete Adventurer although there are classes in other books I'd consider.

EruditeApe

Jan 26, 2013 17:35:53

Tome of Battle

Tempest_Stormwind

Jan 26, 2013 17:43:12

Tome of Battle

Normally I would say this emphatically (and twice on Sunday). The only reason I hesitate is "New DM" with "pregen characters" - suddenly pulling something that gamechanging might not be all that wise.

Of course, the parts you'd need on a straight rogue are minor: mostly a handful of Shadow Hand maneuvers (so maybe a handful of martial studies, a martial stance, and a few magic items would work even if you don't dip into swordsage). This might make its impact a bit more manageable, and if you can do THAT, then you've got one of the best books in D&D for nonspellcasters.

If the TOB is not an option, pick Scoundrel or Adventurer. Dungeonscape provides you with the Factotum, which is kind of like a super-rogue that can also pass (for a short while) in other people's jobs as well. If Multiclassing's an option, that's a good call.

vortsukoto

Jan 26, 2013 18:58:41

I would vote Complete Scoundrel. That will give you feats and equipment that won't overwhelm your DM.
My second vote would be for Complete Adventurer. It's not as broad as CS but is a lot better of keeping characters power at around their level than these other options.
Dungonescape has a lot of bizarre options and is going to give you a breadth of tactics FAR more than what a new DM will ever throw at you.
Tome of Battle does for the unprepared DM like the invention of the machine gun did to 19th century battle tactics. It's fine if that's the new standard you hold yourself to, but isn't exactly what the game is built around.

EruditeApe

Jan 26, 2013 19:31:26

He's playing a rogue. Rogue as in dramatically inferior to paladins, and probabably even monks in such a limited environment. He needs all the help he can get.

Tempest_Stormwind

Jan 26, 2013 19:32:38

Tome of Battle does for the unprepared DM like the invention of the machine gun did to 19th century battle tactics. It's fine if that's the new standard you hold yourself to, but isn't exactly what the game is built around.

A better example would probably be the pike square. The last Duke of Burgundy brought in what was thought to be the pinnacle of warfare at the time - fully armored mounted knights - on an invasion into Switzerland. However, the simple effectiveness of the pike square - a formation that soundly defeated the Duke - changed the face of European warfare by showing that large infantry armies were the way to go. They never completely dropped the cavalry, but no longer were they stuck depending entirely upon it. Armies became flexible and diverse rather than rigid and aristocratic.

Or, to be brief, the Tome puts melee roughly where it probably should have been right out of the get go.

He's playing a rogue. Rogue as in dramatically inferior to paladins, and probabably even monks in such a limited environment. He needs all the help he can get.

I was more concerned about the "new DM" bringing about a backlash rather than the rogue himself.

Krusk

Jan 27, 2013 8:36:51

I like the complete adventurer and scoundrel, but I want to throw an alternative out there. Arms and equipment guide or dungeonscape. Both books are packed with neat rouge like items and tools. Plus its got stuff for the other players, so they will love that you brought them.

#10

awaken_D_M_golem

Jan 27, 2013 15:15:26

Human Rogue 1 / Wizard 19 w Able Learner feat
Standard build, pick mostly sneaky stuff
... and just a hint of the juicy bits.

#11

Andarious-Rosethorn

Jan 27, 2013 18:34:48

If you're at all interested in doming something like Wiz/Rogue combo, consider doing it with Complete Scoundrel, the Unseen Seer does just what you suggest. It's an uberstealth (IE magic user/rogue) character that also concentrates on perception and divination.

It progresses Base attack bonus better than Arcane Trixter and has easier requirements to reach. The spellcasting's as good with some neat tricks to make it better in some ways, and the sneak attack is only one die less.

#12

piggyknowles

Jan 27, 2013 22:20:45

Jumping on the bandwagon and saying Complete Scoundrel is the best book for you.

Why?

Equipment. There's a lot of fun gear for rogue-types, and the mundane equipment section is especially choice. Probably tied with Dungeonscape for the most useful mundane equipment for the handy rogue.

Skill tricks. They are insanely useful. Put those 8 skill points/level to work! Spot invisible enemies to target with flour pouches, make your attacks as touch attacks, attack someone without them noticing, climb while leaving your hands free, perform crazy tumble tricks - these are just a few of the things skill tricks let you do. Seriously, they're a real boon to the roguish types, and they're a lot of fun. (Basically, they're expanded uses of skills that you can use 1/encounter by spending two skill points to learn them. There are quite a few of them, and it's worth reading through them all.)

The Uncanny Trickster prestige class. It's probably my favorite non-casting prestige class for a rogue. It gives you 8 SP/level, all skills as class skills, and progresses your actual rogue levels by two - so you'll go up in sneak die, gain new rogue special abilities, etc. It also gives you three bonus skill tricks, and lets you use some of your skill tricks twice an encounter. It's not crazy but it's super easy to qualify for and basically acts like rogue+ for you.

Unseen Seer and Combat Trapsmith, for two different takes on roguish prestige classes if you're going for a different sort of rogue. The former is a much classier version of the arcane trickster. The latter lets you set traps in combat. The Combat Trapsmith's got some flaws - the DCs don't scale as well as they should, it requires craft (alchemy) to set many of your traps and yet doesn't let you create alchemical items, and the fact that you can only set them at ground level annoys me - but it's still a supremely cool concept, and the trap list is quite nice.

Dungeonscape is a close second - factotums usually make better rogues than the actual rogue class, it also has cool mundane items, and Dungeonscape's Trapsmith class is almost certainly strictly better than CSco's Combat Trapsmith thanks to its spells, even if I like the Combat Trapsmith more. But there's more player content in general in Complete Scoundrel, and skill tricks are just too good to pass up.

#13

EruditeApe

Jan 27, 2013 22:23:37

If ToB is off the table, and just replacing rogue with rogue-that-actually-works is not an option either, then I must suggest Magic Item Compendium. Make it so you're actually capable of doing even just a few things. Remember to max UMD.

#14

Andarious-Rosethorn

Jan 28, 2013 14:18:15

Ooo, slick pick EA. It's like Spell Compendium, but for everyone.

#15

awaken_D_M_golem

Jan 28, 2013 17:15:50

I wonder what a Single book Nanobots build, would look like?

It would be sneaky.

#16

NecessaryWeevil

Feb 07, 2013 23:01:21

OK, I'm approaching second level and I opened Complete Scoundrel to take a look....I don't see Unseen Seer. Isn't that in Complete Mage?

#17

StevenO

Feb 07, 2013 23:09:43

Unseen Seer is in the Complete Mage.

Personally, I'd also make some alterations to the Arcane Trickster class which really should have been done when it was promoted in 3.5.

#18

Andarious-Rosethorn

Feb 07, 2013 23:46:38

Yeah, my bad. I don't know what I was thinking when I referenced that prc in the wrong book. Doh.