First, let me tell you what I know about the team so far, and the game. Well, first off, as I stated earlier, there is no divine casting, or for that matter, even *[edit - DIVINE] powers allowed. Paladins would be glorified feat-less fighters, druids don't get spells (ironically, they will get shapeshifting...don't ask me, I'm not the DM, it wasn't my call), clerics are right-off useless, etc. I even tried to rules-lawyer my way into a Dragon Shaman to get us a party healer, but he was on to me. Even the bard gets no love with his arcane cure light wounds; he house-ruled it right out! The only healing possible is (ugh) natural, be it rest or heal checks, etc...or to pay NPC "witches" that are basically like the Mystics in Dragonlance, only we can't play them and they're pretty nasty people, so they charge triple to 4x the cost it would normally be, maybe make us quest to get rezzes, etc. Also, no utility-spell wands, and combat wands are now rare magic guns.
Second, as I stated earlier, the party is HUGE. We have, that I know of:
A troll (using savage species progression into an eventual dungeon-crasher fighter with knockback...and YES, the DM is actually allowing his regeneration, we did find one loophole)
An elf scout
Some sort of Dragonlance style tinker gnome who will probably be an arcane caster but hasn't decided. Will build stuff. That's all I know about him.
An unknown race bard
A warforged barbarian-fighter-juggernaut-frenzyberserker (she said she may not go FB, but she might consider it since she can wail on the troll when she is out of baddies..and yes, we can use repair)
A drow wizard (sadly, the party newby, fresh in from 2nd edition as the last thing he ever played...I will incidentally be helping twink him out, so ideas there might not hurt)
A human either Warblade or Duskblade (undecided, but he's leaning towards a vampire spawn Duskblade when last I spoke to him)
and me...
I decided I would like to play a Petal (already DM approved...WITH LA BUYBACK). I haven't played one before, and I always liked the idea of being tiny (for fun...I know it's not terribly optimized). I am leaning STRONGLY towards Spellthief, as I rolled awesomely and would have a SICK Dex and Cha (I rolled 10, 17, 15, 14, 15, 15). I was thinking of going 20 (there's no Spellthief handbook links working, so I wouldn't know how to spread even if I wanted to) and throwing down the following feats:
1. Flyby Attack
3. Craven
6. Combat Expertise
9. Underfoot Combat
12. Confound the Big Folk
15. Improved Trip
18. Great Flyby Attack
At low levels I should suck terribly, but at least I can contribute with a crossbow and max ranks in craft poison. Still, I can bust out laughing every time I picture a tiny guy whipping past baddies, tripping them, sticking them, and bolting without them even noticing who or what it was, and disappearing in a flash with my insane hide skill.
Alternatively, less funny, but probably safer, I could work in Rapid Reload, Weapon Focus (light crossbow), and Crossbow Sniper to actually do good damage (27 dex at ECL3 no items), but it wouldn't be as hilarious. Would it? Also less flavorful (and since we're high on melee low on casters not necessarily the best "team player") would be a Rogue/Assasin for lots of sneak attack and hiding. Also, an evil petal? Come on, that just SCREAMS "My character is nothing but a race/class combination."
I will say this: I definitely wanna do the Petal. 60ft fly with good maneuverability + tiny size = so cool to me. I'm not married to the Spellthief idea, but with tiny size and an insane dex and charisma, I don't know what else would be good. I DON'T want to do sorcerer, wizard, etc. I am not wholely against Beguiler.
Also, the scout says he's got the trap thing down, so no need to waste skillpoints there. Thanks for the help guys, and sorry about the huuuuuge post.
So, what part of that build gets nerfed exactly? Divine Focus? See 2.
2. "...There is no divine casting, or for that matter, even powers allowed. Paladins would be glorified feat-less fighters, druids don't get spells (ironically, they will get shapeshifting...don't ask me, I'm not the DM, it wasn't my call), clerics are right-off useless, etc. I even tried to rules-lawyer my way into a Dragon Shaman to get us a party healer, but he was on to me. Even the bard gets no love with his arcane cure light wounds; he house-ruled it right out! The only healing possible is (ugh) natural... Also, no utility-spell wands, and combat wands are now rare magic guns."
Powers, as in anything a normal human couldn't do (in the real world)?
3. "Second, as I stated earlier, the party is HUGE."
Just for the sake of mentioning, there are mechanics that optimize with that. I think JanusJones's Power Ranger Kobolds (ToB) is a perfect example, however that thread may have been removed in the purge.
Mob rules, perhaps?
4. "A troll... The DM is actually allowing his regeneration."
There's a start then; attain regeneration (or fast healing?). I'm assuming your DM doesn't frown upon Regeneration then. And if you're keen, I'll probably have to search for the threads myself.
5. Other idea for unlimited outside-of-battle-healing (and in-combat, but not limitless unless...), Martial Spirit-stance of the Crusader. Only if your DM allows you to hit for one at-will.
6. "Some sort of Dragonlance style tinker gnome who will probably be an arcane caster but hasn't decided. Will build stuff. That's all I know about him."
Now, here's the puzzling part. You said no powers, yet this member is becoming an arcane caster. On top of that, they will build stuff. That's a lot of powers open right there.
7. "A drow wizard..."
In treantmonklvl20's thread on becoming God (Wizard guide), search for "useless". There'll be a picture there that'll make you laugh in regards to this particular character.
8. "A human either Warblade or Duskblade (undecided, but he's leaning towards a vampire spawn Duskblade when last I spoke to him)"
>Implies ToB is allowed.
There must be some easy healing-picks in Arcane spellcasting. If the CharOp forums are still worth their salt, they'll find something that the DM will rule-0.
9. "I decided I would like to play a Petal (already DM approved...WITH LA BUYBACK). I haven't played one before, and I always liked the idea of being tiny (for fun...I know it's not terribly optimized)."
Never heard of it; never played one either. The "LA"-part doesn't bode well either. Tiny is one size-category below Small, right? Permanent Reduce Person?
10. "I am leaning STRONGLY towards Spellthief, as I rolled awesomely and would have a SICK Dex and Cha (I rolled 10, 17, 15, 14, 15, 15). I was thinking of going 20 (there's no Spellthief handbook links working, so I wouldn't know how to spread even if I wanted to)..."
Want Spellthief because...rolled 10, 17, 15, 14, 15, 15?
11. "I picture a tiny guy whipping past baddies, tripping them, sticking them, and bolting without them even noticing who or what it was, and disappearing in a flash with my insane hide skill."
Ignoring the feats and the preceding text of that quote, where do you plan to "disappear in a flash with your insane hide skill"? Does the Petal get HiPS? Are you assuming there's always gonna be total concealment/cover?
12. "I will say this: I definitely wanna do the Petal. 60ft fly with good maneuverability + tiny size = so cool to me."
Are you keen on the creature, or the mechanics?
13. "I'm not married to the Spellthief idea, but with tiny size and an insane dex and charisma, I don't know what else would be good. I DON'T want to do sorcerer, wizard, etc. I am not wholely against Beguiler."
DEX is good for ray-spells.
14. "Also, the scout says he's got the trap thing down, so no need to waste skillpoints there."
Yeah, DEX and CHA don't really help trap-finding.
1. So, what part of that build gets nerfed exactly? Divine Focus? See 2.
Divine Focus, Opportunistic Piety, Any divine spellcasting on the Chameleon part...heck, even UMDing a wand is boned out now!
Powers, as in anything a normal human couldn't do (in the real world)?
Specifically, no Divine Spells or Divine Supernatural Abilities...No Divine Characters. Their extraordinary are subject to DM approval. He says it's a Godless world, or at least, in the last 10,000 years there has been no divine activity.
Just for the sake of mentioning....Power Ranger Kobolds (ToB) is a perfect example, however that thread may have been removed in the purge.
Yeah, it's been removed
There's a start then; attain regeneration (or fast healing?). I'm assuming your DM doesn't frown upon Regeneration then. And if you're keen, I'll probably have to search for the threads myself.
I certainly would love to add regeneration to my DR/ColdIron and insane touch AC
5. Other idea for unlimited outside-of-battle-healing (and in-combat, but not limitless unless...), Martial Spirit-stance of the Crusader. Only if your DM allows you to hit for one at-will.
Unfortunately, he ruled that Crusader is divine in nature. The Warblade/Duskblade Undecided was originally gonna be a Crusader.
Now, here's the puzzling part. You said no powers, yet this member is becoming an arcane caster. On top of that, they will build stuff. That's a lot of powers open right there.
My bad, I should have proofread before sending. No DIVINELY-BASED powers (or, before anyone suggests it, Psionic. I tried.). Arcane is all good. (Except no bard Curing, etc.)
>
Implies ToB is allowed.
It is. The DM and that player were previously in 4th ed. The player asked for something close to a 4th ed. character, that was the best direction I could suggest.
There must be some easy healing-picks in Arcane spellcasting. If the CharOp forums are still worth their salt, they'll find something that the DM will rule-0.
True, and I could probably get away with it in the heat of battle 1 time. He will Rule 0 it as soon as I do though. He says he wants us to "Think carefully and not blindly rush in thinking I can just get healed or rezz if I die". Ugh!
Never heard of it; never played one either. The "LA"-part doesn't bode well either. Tiny is one size-category below Small, right? Permanent Reduce Person?
Monster Manual 3. Only a +2LA. Like I said, he's allowing the Buyback rules from Unearthed Arcana, so I can lose it by level 6 and 9.
Want Spellthief because...rolled 10, 17, 15, 14, 15, 15?
After Petal racial adjustments (and minimum score 3 per DM), it is Str3, Dex27 Con19, Int18, Wis15, Cha23. With Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat for the race already built in.
Ignoring the feats and the preceding text of that quote, where do you plan to "disappear in a flash with your insane hide skill"? Does the Petal get HiPS? Are you assuming there's always gonna be total concealment/cover?
Shrouded Dance skill trick was my plan to hide in plain sight if there was no option to immediately. Or hide behind the troll. I mean, he is large, I am tiny. Is that legal?
Are you keen on the creature, or the mechanics?
Both. And we don't have access to permanency from low levels. But mainly I just really like the creature.
DEX is good for ray-spells.
Yeah. Any good suggestions for Spellthief (or if I can work it in using the Master Spellthief feat and a little clever multiclassing, Beguiler)?
Because it comes from a God, it's bad, but something that comes from the Weave is okay? The fact that one can recognize the existence of God(s) and planes (particularly Heaven(s?) and hells) just borks the whole ecology.
re: Spellthief suggestions: I hear of something called Godsblooded Spellthief feat. Also, Beholder Mage Lite
re: Factotum/Chameleon: I'm not sure how much of a blow losing Opportunistic Piety nor Divine Focus (although, I suppose that's half or 1/3 of the Chameleon's practicality once you gain double aptitude) is, but I'd hate to find those are what are considered the bread and butter of those two classes.
re: Martial Spirit: that feat that allows you to learn a new stance of any kind?
re: healing ideas: a) Plane Shift to the Plane of Positive Energy. You can use it as a buff pre-battles too, and make sure you go at least over double your total HP ;), b) enter a plane where time moves much faster, wait, come back to Material Plane. Have you seen the Player's Guide to Healing? The Artificer could probably beast with some Belts of Healing?
re: high DEX: Fighter (Hit-and-Run-ACF) from DotU for Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents. I can probably find a couple of other ways to get more Dex to attack and damage.
re: Shrouded Dance for concealment: it seems to me you can't Hide while being observed. Concealment/cover is a given.
Links:
random search www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefo...
Beholder Mage Lite - NI spells as free actions! - (by Soluphobe) is dead. The trick involved something like a Frost Giant's rune, and you repeatedly steal spells from it to fuel...explosive runes?
re: No Divine: What about Clerics who follow a...way of life, I think it's called?
Because it comes from a God, it's bad, but something that comes from the Weave is okay? The fact that one can recognize the existence of God(s) and planes (particularly Heaven(s?) and hells) just borks the whole ecology.
re: Spellthief suggestions: I hear of something called Godsblooded Spellthief feat.
I know, I know. I think it's stupid too. But he's been a good DM in the past, so hey, I'm gonna put up with it. He's not using Forgotten Realms, so there's no Weave per say, just magic I guess. I didn't really ask too much about the cosmology. I found that feat, unfortunately it means exposure to a God's blood during the FR time of troubles. Problem there is 1. It's not FR. 2. No Gods to swim in the blood of.
"carnivore's The Transporter - Jaunter Optimization thread is DEX-based. Jaunter is a PrC from Expedition to Demonweb pits that is 4 levels long and has teleportation SLAs based on DEX! Good synergy. He then presents a build that deals over 300 damage with its awesome feat tree."
"If you can't take the four levels in Ninja but can still take the one level dip in Lion Barbarian, there's a feat called Agile Athlete that lets you use DEX instead of STR on your jump check. Add in Battle Jump, Raptor School, etc. and that's a ton of synergy!"
The build I ultimately came up with is:
Warlock 1/ Bloodline 3/ Rouge 1/ Arcane trickster 7/ Escalation Mage 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3
I used some sneaky feats to get into arcane trickster (and invisibility from pixie works well with sneaks)
Character development wise it can go along the lines of:
A pixie was endowed rare powers by the fey (you can even make the bloodline fey if you want, but I think there are others that are better), but was a true fun-loving prankster at heart.
One day he pranks went horribly wrong, and was looked down upon ever since, and she slowly "joined the dark side" (which explains the escalation and hellfire)
Hmm, Well after reading over what you have in mind, why not go Rogue/Sorc/Spellwarp Sniper? with your Dex you'll be perfect for a rayscaster. Just fly around the battlefield & snipe your foes then disappear in the crowd (or just cast invisibility), you'll want to stay away from melee since there will be no healing.
-Or-
Go for a Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Invisible blade 5/Master-thrower 5/ xxx4
Take Dareing outlaw feat & throw alot of daggers a round from a distance then hop behind a big fighter-type & repeat.
There are a lot of other ways to go too, but those are just what I'm thinking of at the moment...I'll look around & post some more builds later.
Warlock 1/ Bloodline 3/ Rouge 1/ Arcane trickster 7/ Escalation Mage 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3
I used some sneaky feats to get into arcane trickster (and invisibility from pixie works well with sneaks)
Character development wise it can go along the lines of:
A pixie was endowed rare powers by the fey (you can even make the bloodline fey if you want, but I think there are others that are better), but was a true fun-loving prankster at heart.
One day he pranks went horribly wrong, and was looked down upon ever since, and she slowly "joined the dark side" (which explains the escalation and hellfire)
1. Pixie is just too much LA for me, I want to be able to buy-off pre-Epic. I thought of it. (Plus, they're not tiny.)
2. Why is Warlock first, wouldn't Rogue1/Warlock1/Bloodline3/Trickster7/EM2/HW3 be more skill points?
3. With the bloodline levels (no hit points), and the lack of healing, wouldn't taking con damage be rather shooting myself in the foot? Other than that I like the style of it... I've always wanted to play a Warlock, but never had the chance. Would Unseen Seer or Daggerspell Caster maybe work in the bloodline's place? Also, where/what is this Escalation Mage you speak of?
Wow, so no divine huh?
Hmm, Well after reading over what you have in mind, why not go Rogue/Sorc/Spellwarp Sniper? with your Dex you'll be perfect for a rayscaster. Just fly around the battlefield & snipe your foes then disappear in the crowd (or just cast invisibility), you'll want to stay away from melee since there will be no healing.
-Or-
Go for a Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Invisible blade 5/Master-thrower 5/ xxx4
Take Dareing outlaw feat & throw alot of daggers a round from a distance then hop behind a big fighter-type & repeat.
There are a lot of other ways to go too, but those are just what I'm thinking of at the moment...I'll look around & post some more builds later.
I thought of the Rogue3/Swash3/IB3/MT5/xxx4 (was gonna just go more swash for more sneak attack with Daring Outlaw, like you mentioned) myself, actually! But, what about the lowered damage to thrown weapons from my abysmal strength score? That's what kept me from going for it...
Now, that Spellwarp Sniper is a class I hadn't looked over, and it does indeed look fun! Medium BAB, full casting, and magic sneak attacks? Transform my area attacks into rays, you say? Coup de grace with a point and die? So fun!
If that idea would combine well with Mervin's ideas, we could have some real fun on our hands. Now, does Warlock technically qualify for that class, or would I need sorcerer? The qualifying for prestige class rules for Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts always confused me.
1. Spellthief - Flaws - Noncombatant, Feats - Craven, Flyby Attack
2. Sorcerer (Metamagic Variant in PHB2)
3. Sorcerer - Point Blank Shot
4. Sorcerer
5. Sorcerer
6. Unseen Seer - Master Spellthief
7. Unseen Seer - *bonus Silent Spell
8. Spellwarp Sniper
9. Spellwarp Sniper - ???Feat
10. Spellwarp Sniper - *bonus Precise Shot
11. Spellwarp Sniper
12. Spellwarp Sniper -???Feat
13. Unseen Seer
14. Unseen Seer
15-20: Unseen Seer or Arcane Trickster (depending if I want higher BAB and skills or higher SA from here on) ??? Feats
So, obviously I need to know what feats to slip in here. Since I'm dropping a familiar for metamagic without problems anyway (since I get Silent Spell for free), metamagic could be nice. Still Spell/Quicken Spell/Innate Spell seems like a fun combination to add to it. Also, are there any Reserve Spells that would fit in well? I like the +1 caster level and free point and shoot aspect of those. Are Twin Spell, Chain Spell, or Split Ray worth the trade-off in slots?
Also, I still need to figure out spell choices. At low levels it looks like all rays, but at higher levels, who knows? I THINK I can get away with that Plane Shift to the Positive Energy Plane trick. Very nice one NiteCyper! The DM already ruled out Artificer healing...grrr....
*Edit - Switched Rogue1 for Spellthief 1, added Master Spellthief for stacking caster level goodness and the ability to snake out higher level spells as I gain levels. Beats the heck out of the 2 skill points rogue would give me better than spellthief.
Thanks again for the help so far!!! This kicks the nuggets out of a plain ol' Spellthief.
re: LA: so, is it possible to play an Ogre Mage (LA +7) whatever if your DM says you start off with 0 EXP, and not level 1?
re: Spellthievery: it doesn't have to be a melee sneak-attack?
re: open levels: Mindbender + Mindsight? Oh-powergasm. JanusJones says your teammates will love you for the scouting advantage.
Have you heard of the Persistent Hunter's Eye trick? I don't remember how it goes except that you may need the Ranger's spell list.
re: LA: so, is it possible to play an Ogre Mage (LA +7) whatever if your DM says you start off with 0 EXP, and not level 1?
re: Spellthievery: it doesn't have to be a melee sneak-attack?
re: open levels: Mindbender + Mindsight? Oh-powergasm. JanusJones says your teammates will love you for the scouting advantage.
1. Nope, never heard of it. But Ranger spells are divine, so they're a no-go on the DM's list. All rangers have to be the CW spell-less variant.
2. There's a guy in the party who's doing troll, and the DM is making him do the Savage Species progression instead of actually starting out that way. I think 3 is the max LA he's letting us start with. It has to be something we can totally buy-off pre-epic, otherwise it's gotta be a monster-class. So, yes, I could be an Ogre Mage, but we've already got a regenerating giant in the party.
3. Nope! Spellthief specifically says if you score a sneak attack, but it doesn't say melee.
"A spellthief who hits an opponent with a successful sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead steal a spell, or the potential to cast a specific known spell, from his target. If the target is willing, the spellthief can steal a spell with a touch as a standard action."
So I can zap someone with an enervation from 30 feet away, stealing a spell, sneak attacking for the leftover damage, and hitting them with a negative level or two for fun. And with Master Spellthief, even though I've only got one actual level of spellthief, I can steal spells as high as I can cast as a sorcerer, cast my sorcerer spells in light armor, and my caster level for both spellthief (if I had any spells with it, which I don't) and sorcerer = my combined levels in both.
4. I suppose Mindbender/Mindsight could work. I didn't want to take the hit to my BAB without getting extra Sneak Attack dice like Arcane Trickster gives, but the scouting potentials are nice... I suppose when I get to that level I'll have to see how the game goes, if myself or the Scout are more of the lookouts at that point (or for that matter, if I'm fighting things with no Int score mostly or not). If I'm the one doing all the point-man work, I'll do that.
Is Iaijutsu Master allowed? 5 levels gets you int to AC, cha to initiative and cha to iaijutsu damage rolls for each dice of damage. Factotum levels can help you qualify with the skill requirement.
Factotum 8, Master 5 could start you off. With a +9 cha by then we're looking at a +25 Iaijutsu Focus check, 35 result gives you +6d6 damage, add that +9 SIX TIMES for about 75 extra damage on average.
Have you looked into alchemy items like cooling gel if applied within 1 hour of taking fire damage it heals you 1d6. There is also the healing salve heals 1d8 think they have a cost of 50 gold and an alchemy DC of like 20 or 25 each. and if you have 5 or more ranks in profession herbalist you get a +2 synergy to crafting them. seeing how this is made with plants and no divine or arcane magic is used in making should be a good way of getting healing. This route will cost you some gold but if you have 2 caster types that pick up craft alchemy they can use the aid other and use master worked tools to get the craft check up. And the good thing about craft alchemy you do not lose exp when making the items just have to pay the crafting cost for materials and the DC check. If you have someone with survival skill you can cut down on costs by having them gather materials.
I will talk to the Scout and the Tinker Gnome about that. The scout, I believe, will have max ranks in survival, if not quite a lot, and the TG is taking craft alchemy, so yea, those tricks could work real nice, and they're nonmagical, so heck yeah...we can all take tanks holding our arms over a weak fire for 1 damage and then rub up on some cooling gel. It's not much, but that's something for after battles.
The DM already said that he's cool to allow survival to work for gathering most poison ingredients, so I don't think he'll throw a fit if we start cranking out cooling gel. Honestly, if he gets that lame, I'm gonna poach off half this group and start my own game, lol.
Is Iaijutsu Master allowed? 5 levels gets you int to AC, cha to initiative and cha to iaijutsu damage rolls for each dice of damage. Factotum levels can help you qualify with the skill requirement.
Factotum 8, Master 5 could start you off. With a +9 cha by then we're looking at a +25 Iaijutsu Focus check, 35 result gives you +6d6 damage, add that +9 SIX TIMES for about 75 extra damage on average.
IM is cool, and if I went the Swash/Rogue/IB route mentioned earlier, I would have to mix that in, but I'm going one-level-short-of-full-caster on this one, since I found out it's possible. The party is short on spellcasters, and without divine, we need all the arcane help we can get.
The "shooting myself in the foot" can be solved with strongheart vest (feat and arguable) or a binder lvl
If your DM asks, there's feat that gets you mage hand (pre req for arcane trickster)
petal works just as well with this build (i just like the invis for easy SA)