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Bit of a challenge for you...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
theeternalabyss
Dec 28, 2008 4:56:16 Ok, I'm DM-ing this campaign and I have a level 5 dual dagger wielding NPC which has no class at this point. I had to jump start the campaign due to some particular circumstances. This NPC is supposed to be with the party for a while so i need some stats on her.

I've been looking over different manuals and Shadowdancer seems like a good choice, but I don't really need another rogue in the campaign (at least not at this point).

My other problem is I don't have much time to generate this NPC so I don't have time to pour over DnD materials trying to find the right class to give her.

The question is this: I want to build a rather bad a** dual wielder that can dish out some good damage and be very agile. What classes would you suggest I apply to her?

This is what I have so far:
- She's going to be at level 5
- All dnd sources are game
- Magic items are perfectly fine
- She is Human

Another thing I saw was this Knifer class off of this website (i can't fidn it right now) which was odd but interesting. Basically a knife thrower and it appealed to me as well except that I'd like for her to be a melee fighter instead of a ranged fighter. Even better if she can be effective in both scenarios.

Any help is greatly appreciated!
#2
immolate
Dec 28, 2008 9:07:04 Quick and dirty... urban ranger, Unearthed Arcana, page 55. If your group is unoptimized, that will probably be all you need, unless she's going to evolve into a BBEG. What level is she? How long is she going to remain with the party? If she's going to be there for the long-haul, I would recommend not allowing her to become more effective than the rest of the party, and relegate her to a support role. Even then, resist the temptation to funnel too much information to the party through her, or to make her too big a part of their lives. When a DM uses an in-party NPC to drop hints all the time, it feels like gross manipulation.
#3
theeternalabyss
Dec 28, 2008 12:10:32
Quick and dirty... urban ranger, Unearthed Arcana, page 55. If your group is unoptimized, that will probably be all you need, unless she's going to evolve into a BBEG. What level is she? How long is she going to remain with the party? If she's going to be there for the long-haul, I would recommend not allowing her to become more effective than the rest of the party, and relegate her to a support role. Even then, resist the temptation to funnel too much information to the party through her, or to make her too big a part of their lives. When a DM uses an in-party NPC to drop hints all the time, it feels like gross manipulation.

First of all thanks for the quick response Much appreciated

She's level 5. Excuse my ignorance: BBEG?

The campaign is divided into chapters. So I plan to have her around them just for this first first chapter. I might even kill her off if necessary if they depend too much on her.

Yea I'd like her to take more of a support role then anything else. Oh I agree, I'm funneling just a little now since the campaign just started and they have no clue really what's going on. Afterward she's just there for support and if they are really really lost I may use her to help them. It makes sense that the NPC can hold her own tho. Urban Ranger may be the what I'm looking for.

The only reason I'm asking for optimization is cause I like the build idea and I'd like to use her for some other campaign down the road.
#4
reis
Dec 28, 2008 12:23:17 what books can be used?
#5
theeternalabyss
Dec 28, 2008 12:31:57
what books can be used?

All DnD books are usable.
#6
reis
Dec 28, 2008 12:37:15 splash in some swordsage (tome of battle) and pick up the shadow blade feat and some tiger claw, diamond mind, and shadow hand maneuvers
#7
Grumman
Dec 28, 2008 14:04:25
Excuse my ignorance: BBEG?

Big, Bad, Evil Guy. In computer game terms, a boss fight.
#8
immolate
Dec 28, 2008 14:56:49 I would probably look at any of the good rogue or TWF builds. None of these builds depend on base weapon damage... they're all about added and bonus damage, or often provoking attacks of opportunity, locking down the enemy, mage-killing, etc. Two daggers are as good as any other weapon combination for that purpose, with some exceptions.
#9
gorfnad_the_shiznit
Dec 28, 2008 17:03:52 How about the Machine Gun Rogue. It dual wields daggers for melee and throws more than a dozen per round for ranged. It also only uses three levels of rogue.

Otherwise swordsage can dual wield daggers effectively, especially if you can get into invisible blade. (Since you're DM-ing from what your original post says, see if you can convince yourself to allow the Kung-Fu Genius to apply to swordsage abilities like it does to monk so that your build can be entirely int/dex based. It's really not that much of a stretch.)
#10
feloniousela
Dec 28, 2008 17:14:21 Human Paragon 1/Martial Focused Transmuter 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Human Paragon +2

Wraithstrike, dual wield, a lil sneak attack

Could be pretty fun....you won't need really high Int for bonus spells or DC's or anything like that since you're not going really high levels with this guy. Jack the Dex up, throw down Mage Armor and your AC should be fine...Alter Self to get Troglodyte form for 6 natural AC if needed. A Rod of Lesser Extend could be worthwhile as well.

Head into Unseen Seer after this for progression. The BAB isn't as high as it could be, but with weapon finesse, a jacked Dex, and Wraithstrike it's not too bad.
#11
Grumman
Dec 28, 2008 17:22:43 She could go into Daggerspell Shaper from Complete Adventurer. That way she can be the heal-bot for the party, and act as the party scout.

Or just use Dervish - it's always good for mobile melee fighters.
#12
true_shinken
Dec 28, 2008 17:53:12 Level five makes for a perfect dual-wielding Swashbuckler. Dual daggers, high Int, get Shield of Blades from PHB2. Xeph from XPH are nearly human, so you could make her a xeph and grab Xephb Celerity from Complete Psionic for an extra attack. Also, check Magic Item Compendium for her items.
#13
theeternalabyss
Dec 28, 2008 18:09:39 Wow you guys have given me a lot to think about....Keep the ideas coming I'm getting a lot of inspiration her for some unique builds...and I hadn't even thought of Xeph...I'll have to look into that

Keep em coming and thanks!
#14
runestar
Dec 28, 2008 20:08:11 I would second swordsage.

Between shadow blade and assassin's stance (which grants 2d6 sneak attack), your damage output should be quite respectable. Maneuvers such as wolf tiger strike and burning blade let her move and still be able to make the equivalent of a full attack.
#15
reis
Dec 28, 2008 20:59:53 check out the "beshadowed blade" (2.0?) and "Dread commando" builds in the tome of battle build compendium thread, those are good for dagger TWF
#16
DeAnno
Dec 28, 2008 21:05:29 Effective and Simple, and it grows fairly well:

Rogue 1/Lion totem Barb 1 (Complete champion)/Rogue 2-4

The Lion Totem gives you Pounce, which is important for any rogue who wants to be getting up close and personal a lot. For feats:

H)TWF
1)Fielder's Choice (Darkstalker (LoM)? Craven (Champions of Ruin)? PrC Qualifier?)
3)Weapon Finesse

From here Assassin is the best simple route (Wraithstrike and Swift Invis), but you could do more Rogue or something.

Alternatively, you could mesh a Wizard level or three and Daggerspell Mage (Complete Adv) into that, but its more of a complex beast. The general point here though, is that the best in-your-face melee Rogues have arcane casting enough to cast at least Wraithstrike, and they pounce. Darkstalker is important to keep hiding viable, Craven is important to help SA damage scale into middle levels. If you're feeling crammed for feats going into daggerspell mage, chucking a level of Swordsage at the problem to get Weapon Focus Dagger is useful. If you're interested in any of this, I could lay out a specific path in more detail (ie: A Daggerspell with Barb 1 and Swordsage 1)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 theeternalabyss Dec 28, 2008 4:56:16	Ok, I'm DM-ing this campaign and I have a level 5 dual dagger wielding NPC which has no class at this point. I had to jump start the campaign due to some particular circumstances. This NPC is supposed to be with the party for a while so i need some stats on her. I've been looking over different manuals and Shadowdancer seems like a good choice, but I don't really need another rogue in the campaign (at least not at this point). My other problem is I don't have much time to generate this NPC so I don't have time to pour over DnD materials trying to find the right class to give her. The question is this: I want to build a rather bad a** dual wielder that can dish out some good damage and be very agile. What classes would you suggest I apply to her? This is what I have so far: - She's going to be at level 5 - All dnd sources are game - Magic items are perfectly fine - She is Human Another thing I saw was this Knifer class off of this website (i can't fidn it right now) which was odd but interesting. Basically a knife thrower and it appealed to me as well except that I'd like for her to be a melee fighter instead of a ranged fighter. Even better if she can be effective in both scenarios. Any help is greatly appreciated!
#2 immolate Dec 28, 2008 9:07:04	Quick and dirty... urban ranger, Unearthed Arcana, page 55. If your group is unoptimized, that will probably be all you need, unless she's going to evolve into a BBEG. What level is she? How long is she going to remain with the party? If she's going to be there for the long-haul, I would recommend not allowing her to become more effective than the rest of the party, and relegate her to a support role. Even then, resist the temptation to funnel too much information to the party through her, or to make her too big a part of their lives. When a DM uses an in-party NPC to drop hints all the time, it feels like gross manipulation.
#3 theeternalabyss Dec 28, 2008 12:10:32	Quick and dirty... urban ranger, Unearthed Arcana, page 55. If your group is unoptimized, that will probably be all you need, unless she's going to evolve into a BBEG. What level is she? How long is she going to remain with the party? If she's going to be there for the long-haul, I would recommend not allowing her to become more effective than the rest of the party, and relegate her to a support role. Even then, resist the temptation to funnel too much information to the party through her, or to make her too big a part of their lives. When a DM uses an in-party NPC to drop hints all the time, it feels like gross manipulation. First of all thanks for the quick response Much appreciated She's level 5. Excuse my ignorance: BBEG? The campaign is divided into chapters. So I plan to have her around them just for this first first chapter. I might even kill her off if necessary if they depend too much on her. Yea I'd like her to take more of a support role then anything else. Oh I agree, I'm funneling just a little now since the campaign just started and they have no clue really what's going on. Afterward she's just there for support and if they are really really lost I may use her to help them. It makes sense that the NPC can hold her own tho. Urban Ranger may be the what I'm looking for. The only reason I'm asking for optimization is cause I like the build idea and I'd like to use her for some other campaign down the road.
#4 reis Dec 28, 2008 12:23:17	what books can be used?
#5 theeternalabyss Dec 28, 2008 12:31:57	what books can be used? All DnD books are usable.
#6 reis Dec 28, 2008 12:37:15	splash in some swordsage (tome of battle) and pick up the shadow blade feat and some tiger claw, diamond mind, and shadow hand maneuvers
#7 Grumman Dec 28, 2008 14:04:25	Excuse my ignorance: BBEG? Big, Bad, Evil Guy. In computer game terms, a boss fight.
#8 immolate Dec 28, 2008 14:56:49	I would probably look at any of the good rogue or TWF builds. None of these builds depend on base weapon damage... they're all about added and bonus damage, or often provoking attacks of opportunity, locking down the enemy, mage-killing, etc. Two daggers are as good as any other weapon combination for that purpose, with some exceptions.
#9 gorfnad_the_shiznit Dec 28, 2008 17:03:52	How about the Machine Gun Rogue. It dual wields daggers for melee and throws more than a dozen per round for ranged. It also only uses three levels of rogue. Otherwise swordsage can dual wield daggers effectively, especially if you can get into invisible blade. (Since you're DM-ing from what your original post says, see if you can convince yourself to allow the Kung-Fu Genius to apply to swordsage abilities like it does to monk so that your build can be entirely int/dex based. It's really not that much of a stretch.)
#10 feloniousela Dec 28, 2008 17:14:21	Human Paragon 1/Martial Focused Transmuter 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Human Paragon +2 Wraithstrike, dual wield, a lil sneak attack Could be pretty fun....you won't need really high Int for bonus spells or DC's or anything like that since you're not going really high levels with this guy. Jack the Dex up, throw down Mage Armor and your AC should be fine...Alter Self to get Troglodyte form for 6 natural AC if needed. A Rod of Lesser Extend could be worthwhile as well. Head into Unseen Seer after this for progression. The BAB isn't as high as it could be, but with weapon finesse, a jacked Dex, and Wraithstrike it's not too bad.
#11 Grumman Dec 28, 2008 17:22:43	She could go into Daggerspell Shaper from Complete Adventurer. That way she can be the heal-bot for the party, and act as the party scout. Or just use Dervish - it's always good for mobile melee fighters.
#12 true_shinken Dec 28, 2008 17:53:12	Level five makes for a perfect dual-wielding Swashbuckler. Dual daggers, high Int, get Shield of Blades from PHB2. Xeph from XPH are nearly human, so you could make her a xeph and grab Xephb Celerity from Complete Psionic for an extra attack. Also, check Magic Item Compendium for her items.
#13 theeternalabyss Dec 28, 2008 18:09:39	Wow you guys have given me a lot to think about....Keep the ideas coming I'm getting a lot of inspiration her for some unique builds...and I hadn't even thought of Xeph...I'll have to look into that Keep em coming and thanks!
#14 runestar Dec 28, 2008 20:08:11	I would second swordsage. Between shadow blade and assassin's stance (which grants 2d6 sneak attack), your damage output should be quite respectable. Maneuvers such as wolf tiger strike and burning blade let her move and still be able to make the equivalent of a full attack.
#15 reis Dec 28, 2008 20:59:53	check out the "beshadowed blade" (2.0?) and "Dread commando" builds in the tome of battle build compendium thread, those are good for dagger TWF
#16 DeAnno Dec 28, 2008 21:05:29	Effective and Simple, and it grows fairly well: Rogue 1/Lion totem Barb 1 (Complete champion)/Rogue 2-4 The Lion Totem gives you Pounce, which is important for any rogue who wants to be getting up close and personal a lot. For feats: H)TWF 1)Fielder's Choice (Darkstalker (LoM)? Craven (Champions of Ruin)? PrC Qualifier?) 3)Weapon Finesse From here Assassin is the best simple route (Wraithstrike and Swift Invis), but you could do more Rogue or something. Alternatively, you could mesh a Wizard level or three and Daggerspell Mage (Complete Adv) into that, but its more of a complex beast. The general point here though, is that the best in-your-face melee Rogues have arcane casting enough to cast at least Wraithstrike, and they pounce. Darkstalker is important to keep hiding viable, Craven is important to help SA damage scale into middle levels. If you're feeling crammed for feats going into daggerspell mage, chucking a level of Swordsage at the problem to get Weapon Focus Dagger is useful. If you're interested in any of this, I could lay out a specific path in more detail (ie: A Daggerspell with Barb 1 and Swordsage 1)