What does the board think?
Oh, and the thread indexing function still isn't working; you likely won't get many responses until it's fixed.
They're good if you're trying to advance something that you can't in a normal manner; the best-known example is using them to advance Hellfire Blast.
Oh, and the thread indexing function still isn't working; you likely won't get many responses until it's fixed.
It's also good to advance at the same time two different class abilities from different classes that advance based on class level.
turn undead for example...
@ 15th... Cleric 5 / PrC (that advances turn undead) 10 = effective cleric level 15th turning
@ 15th... Cleric 4/ Major Bloodline / PrC (that advances turn undead) 8 = effective cleric level 18th turning
@ 15th... Cleric 3/ Major Bloodline / turning PrC {a} 1/ turning PrC {b} 1/ turning PrC {c} 7 = effective cleric level 24th turning
and so on...
actually help benefit your caster level and anything else that relies on class level.
you can get 9th level psionic powers at level 9 from a major bloodline, I'd say its pretty good if you are going for shock values
If not, that would seem like a strong candidate for the next "big thing" in the C.O. Handbook Library.
Bloodlines aren't easy for a lot of folk due to the math trickery in working out complex 20 level builds.
JaronK
Human with the otherworldly feat (added as an allowed race in Champions of Valor) and the ritual of alignment from savage species
Ardent 1
Bloodline 2
Ardent 2
Thrallherd 1
Fiend of Possession 5
Bloodline 1
Fiend of Possession 1
Thrallherd 7 or Ardent or other PrC
L1 Otherworldly
L1 Extrapower Mindlink
L3 Inquistor
L6 Shadowhand maneuver (Hide as a class skill)
L9 Practiced Manifestor
You loss 3 manifestor levels, but still get level 9 powers by level 20. Also you will be able to enchant a weapon with up to 9 points of enchancement. Assuming you have metaphysical weapon, you should be able to get a nice plus a weapon with up to 5 enchancement bonuses of choice and add in 9 points of abilities.
If above is a no go try then Bladeling with a Minion of thoth template. This will put you two more levels behind, but may work if level buy off is allowed. Similarly the diabli (spelling) from dragon mag would work with the above template for a net of +1 pre dragon compendium or +2 post. If you really want to push it, the illumian may also be an interesting choice. If you can get the +2 caster level to apply to manifestor levels and take the minion of thoth template and ritual, you would end up with 1 more lost level from the LA. On the plus side though, you could push your net manifestor level up. You can get +2 for base sigils, another +1 from the enhanced sigil feat, and +4 from practiced manifestor. This will cover the 6 levels lost to the FoP and 1 to the thrallherd. You are golden if level buy off is allowed.
Another possible trick would be using the uncanny trickster or Legacy champion to pick up the last level of the class. You need the 3rd bloodline level by 12th or you take xp penalites. I am not sure if this would count as having this level or not, but an idea. There may also be a use for advancing the bloodlines above 3 levels worth of abilities with these classes if it is allowed in your game. It would take a strange build to make this useful.
I look forward to seeing more builds.
Also, a handbook on the subject would be awesome :D
I may just be retarded, but how exactly does having a bloodline help with level based abilities? Especially to the extent stated above? If anyone could point out what I am missing I would be very thankful.
Also, a handbook on the subject would be awesome :D
Every time you take a Bloodline level (which are the levels that work much like LA) you get a +1 to caster level in all classes, as well as a +1 to class level in all classes for purposes of abilities related to class level.
The best use of this is with Animal Companions, which gives you the ubermount. Dip a bunch of classes that all advance animal companions (per class level). For each class level in these classes (such as Beastmaster, Halfling Outrider, etc), your Druid level (also a class level thing!) is increased for Animal Companion.
Now, with a Major Bloodline you have 3 bloodline levels, so +3 to class level in all classes for animal companions. Thus, a Druid 5/Beastmaster 1/Wild Plains Outrider 1/Fey Bard 1/PrC Ranger 1/Halfling Outrider 8 without a bloodline is a 17th level character with 28 Druid levels for Animal Companions (Halfling Outrider levels stack with both Ranger and Druid for animal companions, so having PrC ranger in there, which progresses Animal Companions at full rate, lets you double dip as an outrider). Add in three bloodline levels and your animal companion level spikes to 49... +3 for every class in the build, with an additional +3 for Halfling Outrider, since you double dip.
Now add in Devoted Tracker and a few Paladin levels and this gets really silly (you'll need to drop Druid and use Paladin of Freedom, getting your initial animal companion out of fey varient Bard).
JaronK
Has anyone authored a C.O. Handbook on Bloodlines yet?
If not, that would seem like a strong candidate for the next "big thing" in the C.O. Handbook Library.
Bloodlines aren't easy for a lot of folk due to the math trickery in working out complex 20 level builds.
Agreed.
I'd say that the main problem with optimizing bloodlines is getting a DM to allow them. A lot of that stuff is way, way broken.
Isn't the drawback that you don't get to roll HP and your BAB, saves don't increase? Is it worth that?
How do Bloodlines work for Martial Adepts and Initiator Levels? They raise your IL +1 each; is the idea to take a Bloodline level here and there so that you qualify for stances and maneuvers at the "appropriate" time (i.e. a Crusader can get a 3rd level stance for their 2nd stance instead of a second 1st level one?)
Isn't the drawback that you don't get to roll HP and your BAB, saves don't increase? Is it worth that?
You get +.5 IL for non associated class levels. Your class level increases by 3 for all classes with a Major bloodline. So, if you have a Major bloodline, every one level dip into a class grants +2IL. Thus, a Ranger 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter1/OA Samurai 1/Hexblade 1/Duskblade 1/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Scarlet Corsair 1/Rogue 1/Monk 1/Spellthief 1/Ninja 1 has an Il of 26 before taking any initiator classes. If he then takes one level of Warblade, his Il is now 30. It's a quick and nasty way to get all ninth level manuevers, and it makes Burning Blade a really nasty boost.
But yes, you lose 3 levels of BAB and HP. Your saves from all that dipping will be somewhere in the stratosphere.
JaronK
Just linking this post for a collection for the eventual handbook
A) If you're not using the advancing class levels to pull off some trick, Bloodlines are pretty universally horrible. No HD, BAB or saves to get a bunch of minor bonuses. Bad trade (the Intermediate Celestial Bloodline compares poorly to playing Aasimar, which is already a bad move for the +1LA).
B) The Titan Bloodline apparently lets you wield a Gargantuan warhammer without penalty, regardless of size. That might be worth the +3 effective LA.
B) The Titan Bloodline apparently lets you wield a Gargantuan warhammer without penalty, regardless of size. That might be worth the +3 effective LA.
I'm pretty sure they meant that ability to be like Powerful Build, increasing by one size, but yeah, that's what it says.
Great Bloodline for those who want to be REALLY anime.
JaronK
I'm pretty sure they meant that ability to be like Powerful Build, increasing by one size, but yeah, that's what it says.
Great Bloodline for those who want to be REALLY anime.
JaronK
I'm planning on giving it to a pixie cohort. :D
Agreed.
I'd say that the main problem with optimizing bloodlines is getting a DM to allow them. A lot of that stuff is way, way broken.
I'd say the biggest problem would be getting the DM to read them in the most broken way possible, which is what's required for the most grievous abuse.
I'd say the biggest problem would be getting the DM to read them in the most broken way possible, which is what's required for the most grievous abuse.
Nope, you just need to read them correctly. It's actually very straight forward (the class levels thing, not the pixie with a hammer ten times bigger than her thing).
JaronK
I was working on one for a bit, but ADD set in and I got distracted. I collected a bunch of nasty ideas (Binder 1/Warlock 13/Hellfire Warlock 3 and the Ubermount are the best examples of Bloodline optimization).
JaronK
Elaborate. I'm gonna play Binder 1 ()/Warlock 5/Mindbender(CAr) 1/Cyran Avenger 5/Hellfire Warlock (FCII) 3/Fiendish Bloodline +3/Anarch 2 (D#). It'd normally be Legacy Champion to fill out Hellfire Warlock and Cyran Avenger but I asked CustServ directly about the ruling for progressing beyond their max PrC levels and they said no. I could probably ask again saying, 'does it advance class features that are dependent on levels in a class'?
Edit: Make that Fey bloodline. I don't even know where Fiendish is. Anyone know any better bloodlines? I'm only looking in d20srd.
Are bloodlines yet another thing that are relatively powerful in practice, but no DM let's anyone use them? I've just never heard of anyone actually playing a character with a bloodline...
I'm currently playing a bloodline character in a campaign. Our DM is running the Cormyr/Shadowdale/etc. Published adventure series.
My build looks something like this:
Naarwa Tal-Palurin
Race: Fire Elf, Fire Elf Bloodline.
1st: SS1 - Combat Focus, 6 Manuevers 1 stance, Discipline Focus, Combat Reflexes (flaw)
2nd: SS1/Mnk1 - Dodge, +2 on Tumble checks, AC Bonus, Unarmed Strike, Asskicking
3rd: SS1/Mnk2 - Mobility, Cardemine Monk, Fast Movement, Etc (more ass kickery)
4th: SS1/Mnk2/Swsh1 - Weapon Finesse, Swashbuckler Style, Arcane Stunt, Dodge +1 vs 1 opponent. Improved Weapon Familiarity
5th: SS1/MNK2/Swsh2 - Riposte, (for maximum defensive killing)
6th: SS1/MNK2/Swsh2/BLL1 - Shadow Blade, Bloodline for megaflavor. Awesomeness +1. +1 dex from bloodline IL 4: manuever Swap!
7th; SS1/MNK2/Swsh3/BLL1 - Can we say int to damage? Badassery +1d6 also.
8th; SS1/MNK2/Swsh4/BLL1 - Bonus Feat! 6 BAB --> Elusive Target. Pyrotechnics 1/day, Dodge +2: 2 guys (thank you bloodline level!) Int boost? IL 5
9th; SS1/MNK2/Swsh5/BLL1 Feat : Backstab. Int to AC from Swashy swashy! IL 5
10th SS1/MNK2/Swsh6/BLL1: Celerity (Extra attacks, even when I move boss? Yessir!) Uncanny Dodge - Now I am truly a bastard! IL 6 Manuever Swap! Badassery +2d6?
11th: SS1/MNK2/Swsh7/BLL1 - Badassery +2d6 IL 6
12th SS1/MNK2/Swsh7/BLL2 Featy featy. Combat Focus Feat + Combat Focus Feat = Bonus Points! (Fast Healing 4, Dodge bonus from dodge feat improves to +2, can change as an immediate action.) Int boost again? IL 7
13th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh7/BLL2: Wis to AC. new Manuever known, new stance known. IL 8 Manuever Swap!
14th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh7/BLL2/EtBl1 +2 Listen Checks, Initiator level: 11, Eternal Training 1/day Int to dam again, huzzah sort of a per day/per encounter bit, but he'll live!, Extra Manuever known.
15th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh7/BLL2/EtBl2 - Adaptive Style. Guided Strike - Suck on that DR. Manuever swap IL 12
16th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh7/BLL2/EtBl3 Fire Resistance 10 - Initiator level: 13, Eternal Training 2/day, Extra manuever known, extra manuever readied., Improved Uncanny Doooooooooodge. (Eternal Blade Levels + Swashbuckler levels +4: 18th level rogues for flanking.) If I were a full BAB class all the way through, I'd get another attack here. As it stands I only have 3. Dex Boost.
17th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh8/BLL2/EtBl3 - Bonus Feat - Argue for improved combat reflexes. IL 14 Manuever Swap!
18th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh8/BLL2/EtBl4 - Eternal Knowledge -- Raal makes knowledge checks for Naarwa. Feat. Vital recovery? +1con bloodline level IL 15
19th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh8/BLL2/EtBl5 - Int to AC AGAIN! Three is the charming # IL16 Manuever Swap!
20th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh9/BLL2/EtBl5 Bonus Feat: Mobility. Stat bump.
SS= Swordsage, MNK=Monk, Swsh=Otto the Bugbear's redone Swashbuckler (DM insists), BLL: Bloodline levels. EtBl= Eternal Blade. Pardon the snarky notes, this is my own personal build skeleton for reference when I level up.
Race: Fire Elf, Fire Elf Bloodline.
1st: SS1 - Combat Focus, 6 Manuevers 1 stance, Discipline Focus, Combat Reflexes (flaw)
2nd: SS1/Mnk1 - Dodge, +2 on Tumble checks, AC Bonus, Unarmed Strike, Asskicking
3rd: SS1/Mnk2 - Mobility, Cardemine Monk, Fast Movement, Etc (more ass kickery)
4th: SS1/Mnk2/Swsh1 - Weapon Finesse, Swashbuckler Style, Arcane Stunt, Dodge +1 vs 1 opponent. Improved Weapon Familiarity
5th: SS1/MNK2/Swsh2 - Riposte, (for maximum defensive killing)
6th: SS1/MNK2/Swsh2/BLL1 - Shadow Blade, Bloodline for megaflavor. Awesomeness +1. +1 dex from bloodline IL 4: manuever Swap!
7th; SS1/MNK2/Swsh3/BLL1 - Can we say int to damage? Badassery +1d6 also.
8th; SS1/MNK2/Swsh4/BLL1 - Bonus Feat! 6 BAB --> Elusive Target. Pyrotechnics 1/day, Dodge +2: 2 guys (thank you bloodline level!) Int boost? IL 5
9th; SS1/MNK2/Swsh5/BLL1 Feat : Backstab. Int to AC from Swashy swashy! IL 5
10th SS1/MNK2/Swsh6/BLL1: Celerity (Extra attacks, even when I move boss? Yessir!) Uncanny Dodge - Now I am truly a bastard! IL 6 Manuever Swap! Badassery +2d6?
11th: SS1/MNK2/Swsh7/BLL1 - Badassery +2d6 IL 6
12th SS1/MNK2/Swsh7/BLL2 Featy featy. Combat Focus Feat + Combat Focus Feat = Bonus Points! (Fast Healing 4, Dodge bonus from dodge feat improves to +2, can change as an immediate action.) Int boost again? IL 7
13th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh7/BLL2: Wis to AC. new Manuever known, new stance known. IL 8 Manuever Swap!
14th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh7/BLL2/EtBl1 +2 Listen Checks, Initiator level: 11, Eternal Training 1/day Int to dam again, huzzah sort of a per day/per encounter bit, but he'll live!, Extra Manuever known.
15th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh7/BLL2/EtBl2 - Adaptive Style. Guided Strike - Suck on that DR. Manuever swap IL 12
16th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh7/BLL2/EtBl3 Fire Resistance 10 - Initiator level: 13, Eternal Training 2/day, Extra manuever known, extra manuever readied., Improved Uncanny Doooooooooodge. (Eternal Blade Levels + Swashbuckler levels +4: 18th level rogues for flanking.) If I were a full BAB class all the way through, I'd get another attack here. As it stands I only have 3. Dex Boost.
17th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh8/BLL2/EtBl3 - Bonus Feat - Argue for improved combat reflexes. IL 14 Manuever Swap!
18th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh8/BLL2/EtBl4 - Eternal Knowledge -- Raal makes knowledge checks for Naarwa. Feat. Vital recovery? +1con bloodline level IL 15
19th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh8/BLL2/EtBl5 - Int to AC AGAIN! Three is the charming # IL16 Manuever Swap!
20th: SS2/MNK2/Swsh9/BLL2/EtBl5 Bonus Feat: Mobility. Stat bump.
SS= Swordsage, MNK=Monk, Swsh=Otto the Bugbear's redone Swashbuckler (DM insists), BLL: Bloodline levels. EtBl= Eternal Blade. Pardon the snarky notes, this is my own personal build skeleton for reference when I level up.
So, essentially, the build would end up sacrificing spellcasting progresion to tweak level-for-rebuking, in order to control more powerful undead. I still can't decide if this is worth it, though.
It also grants Rebuke, right?
Just some thoughts,
Bowen
Personally, I prefer LC/UT to bloodlines, since I hate giving up the hit points, BAB, and saves.
Nope, you just need to read them correctly. It's actually very straight forward (the class levels thing, not the pixie with a hammer ten times bigger than her thing).
JaronK
I suppose it would be more precise to say that the DM would need to interpret the nature of caster level progression and initiator level progression in a way that permits bloodlines to be broken.
If one considers initiator level to be something that is inherent to a Martial Adept class, but not to other classes, then Bloodlines become a much less attractive way to advance them. Similarly, one might argue that even in a full-progression spellcasting prestiege class, the increase in caster level is not a level-dependent feature of that prestiege class. Both these interpretations would limit the Bloodline levels to enhancing the base class that granted the initiator level or caster level in the first place.
It would still be possible to abuse Bloodlines for obscene caster levels and initiator levels. A multiclass character who has no Martial Adept levels could have an Initiator Level of around twice his character level, and I suspect that an Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord (a la The Word) could get a rather impressive Ur-Priest caster level. Also, character might be able to get high ILs in multiple Martial Adept classes by taking multiple Martial Adept prestiege classes (since each MA PrC adds its class level to each IL the character has). So, abuse is still possible, but much more cumbersome.
How does Bloodlines work with Binders, I am away from my books currently.
It raises your Effective Binder Level by 1 per bloodline level.
JaronK
Elaborate. I'm gonna play Binder 1 ()/Warlock 5/Mindbender(CAr) 1/Cyran Avenger 5/Hellfire Warlock (FCII) 3/Fiendish Bloodline +3/Anarch 2 (D#). It'd normally be Legacy Champion to fill out Hellfire Warlock and Cyran Avenger but I asked CustServ directly about the ruling for progressing beyond their max PrC levels and they said no. I could probably ask again saying, 'does it advance class features that are dependent on levels in a class'?
Edit: Make that Fey bloodline. I don't even know where Fiendish is. Anyone know any better bloodlines? I'm only looking in d20srd.
Ignore Custserv, I've now seen every single ruling possible on this from them.
By RAW, a major bloodline gives you +12d6 damage from Hellfire Warlock, due to the fact that Hellfire Warlock explicitly gives +2d6 damage per class level. It does not in any way progress the class beyond its maximum. Just read exactly what Bloodlines say they do and exactly what the Hellfire Warlock says about its per level increase, and it'll be quite clear.
JaronK
It raises your Effective Binder Level by 1 per bloodline level.
JaronK
Damn nice then. Here is the first of two build ideas I am working on.
Cross link for reference
Chameleon+Binder+Bloodlines
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=984755
Dragon Kobold+Anima Mage+Bloodlines
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=984949
and
Gerdeg
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=11436120&postcount=19
said about fiend of possession and I combined the two.
Here is the build.
My Magnum Opus, Fiend of Possession+Bloodlines+Binder
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=985707
Jaunter (ExDemonWeb): Bloodlines increase the number of Travel Points you have, which drive the whole damn class.
War Weaver(HoB): Increases the Maximum Spell level of spells you can channel through your weave, Max 8th level spells with Major Bloodline, that's pretty powerful.
Aburant Champion(CompMage): Increases the Maximum Spell level of Abjuration Spells you can cast as swift actions, Max 4 with Major or Moderate Bloodline.
Fighter: Related feats. (Mentioned simply because no one else has stated the obvious yet >> )
Cannith Wand Adept: Adds his Class level to Wand DCs… not that great, I just like the idea of double wand swinging characters, and higher DCs are always good…
Paladin: Lay on hands. (Paladin level + Bloodlines) x Cha. Smite: Damage, etc, etc, Tons of goodies.
You get +.5 IL for non associated class levels. Your class level increases by 3 for all classes with a Major bloodline. So, if you have a Major bloodline, every one level dip into a class grants +2IL. Thus, a Ranger 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter1/OA Samurai 1/Hexblade 1/Duskblade 1/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Scarlet Corsair 1/Rogue 1/Monk 1/Spellthief 1/Ninja 1 has an Il of 26 before taking any initiator classes. If he then takes one level of Warblade, his Il is now 30. It's a quick and nasty way to get all ninth level manuevers, and it makes Burning Blade a really nasty boost.
But yes, you lose 3 levels of BAB and HP. Your saves from all that dipping will be somewhere in the stratosphere.
JaronK
you're right about the saves, but i'm pretty sure you're incorrect on the rest.
Initiator level is not just a .5/level of non-associated class progression separate to each class. it's 1/2 all your non-associated levels + levels of the one martial class. all those levels then one warblade level would get you a IL of 9.
but even by using your opinions on the progressions stacking i'm only calculating 15 not 30.
Divine Mind 3
Bloodline 3
Legacy PrC 2
Uncanny Trickster(?) 2
(or whatever it is in CScoun)
DivM (3+3) + LP (1+3) + UT (1+3) = 14 levels of Divine Mind class features. But in 10 levels.
I picked it cause it's bad otherwise.
Am I close ???
you're right about the saves, but i'm pretty sure you're incorrect on the rest.
Initiator level is not just a .5/level of non-associated class progression separate to each class. it's 1/2 all your non-associated levels + levels of the one martial class. all those levels then one warblade level would get you a IL of 9.
Not quite. If I have Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 1/OA Samurai 1/CW Samurai 1/Ranger 1 and a Major bloodline, for example, how many non associated class levels do I have?
Well, I have my Fighter level (1+3), my Barbarian level (1+3), my Swashbuckler level (1+3), etc. Every time I count a new class, I have to add three to the class level for purposes of any ability related to class level (and IL is related to class levels). Thus, for every non associated 1 level dip, I add 3 more levels... then divide by two. In this case, I have an IL of 12. Adding in a Warblade level bumps this to 16, though if I add another Warblade level it's 17.
but even by using your opinions on the progressions stacking i'm only calculating 15 not 30.
I wasn't the original person who posted that particular calculation, I'm just stating how the math works.
JaronK
the first level in a major bloodline would only affect classes from the first two levels. the second, the first two and the next two between the first and second.
it seems like everybody is working backwards.
and i do not think that IL works like you think it works.
i'm pretty sure you could use bloodlines to keep a warblade/crusader/swordsage's individual IL's from falling as much behind.
and if you took just one level of Warblade first and went on to take other classes, whenever you took a bloodline level it would count as a Warblade level for your total IL instead of one of the halved levels. obviously.
i think there's confusion because bloodlines came before IL's existed so it's garbled because it's harder to take into account all these things. It's far too similar to multiclassing different types of Wizards. Luckily you can't do that, but if you could they would have at least mentioned how it works with that in unearthed arcana. and i would not be sitting here having to explain why it doesn't work like that.
If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.
For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer with a major bloodline takes a bloodline level when earns enough XP to advance in level. He is treated as a 3rd-level spellcaster for the purpose of spell durations, caster level checks, and so forth. But he doesn't gain a 3rd-level sorcerer's spells per day or spells known.
Similarly, the stunning attacks of a 3rd-level monk with one bloodline level have a save DC equal to 12 (10 + one-half class level) plus her Wisdom modifier, since the bloodline level is treated as if it were a monk class level when calculating the save DC. A 3rd-level monk/3rd-level sorcerer with two bloodline levels would be treated as a 5th-level spellcaster and a 5th-level monk for determining level-based abilities.
(Also available at your local SRD)
And that's why bloodline levels stack for classes after you've taken them, plain as day.
Unfortunately they could give me no information on how Bloodlines interact with IL.
Similarly, the stunning attacks of a 3rd-level monk with one bloodline level have a save DC equal to 12 (10 + one-half class level) plus her Wisdom modifier, since the bloodline level is treated as if it were a monk class level when calculating the save DC. A 3rd-level monk/3rd-level sorcerer with two bloodline levels would be treated as a 5th-level spellcaster and a 5th-level monk for determining level-based abilities.
So my above post works. And the monk/sorc example gives me an OOOh.
Carnivore has posted the Talashtora Monk and Psion stuff. One feat lets psionic classes count for some of the Monk stuff. A bloodline would advance both, with the overlap! And you can apply the feat to multiple classes!! And you can adapt something normally pathetic like Enchanted Fist (cArc or whatever it's called)!!!
Monk/Psion/EFadapted/Bloodline and 2 feats, would boost the regular Monk advancement to the moon.
Monk 2 / Bl 3 / Psion 5 / EFa 10 - let's see if I can do the math.
Monk + Titan = funny idea
Ardent 5 instead of Psion 5, with PracManifester can still get 1 9th level power.
If some of the Monk PrCs can be qualified for, even with the Bloodline gimpage (short term),
then how many Monk PrCs can be stacked up?
10 to 15 or more is my guess. 15 * 4 = 60(+) monk levels of stuff the basic stuff.
HELLO = smash.
Monk should get silly and/or playable with Bloodlines.
If some of the Monk PrCs can be qualified for, even with the Bloodline gimpage (short term),
then how many Monk PrCs can be stacked up?
10 to 15 or more is my guess. 15 * 4 = 60(+) monk levels of stuff the basic stuff.
HELLO = smash.
Except you can only get 20 levels of the basic stuff pre-epic.
Except you can only get 20 levels of the basic stuff pre-epic.
Says who? Even a Monk's Belt can get you more than that. Still, it's not very powerful, as you're still a Monk (...and unarmed damage stops at level 20; You only improve speed, SR, AC and Stunning Fist.).
would be 17*4=68. Fun later but more attrocious than attrocious early.
I took a look at Psionics.
Psions + PsyWars have a few powers that go up via Levels. Yawn.
Soulknife + Illuman Soul + Soulbow + maybe Incandescant Champion (MOI) might work, but BAB is really bad.
Divine Mind - I already mentioned. Basically ditch the manifesting for the class features. Might work. Might save the class.
Lurk - Ugg. Not much.
Ardent - Ph00 posted, it's better than Psiotheurgist feat, but happens later.
Thrallherd - could be interesting and heck, Low Charisma will work now, weird.
Psicrystals - my specialty - Erudite 1 / Ardent 1 / Major Bloodline 3 / 15 Psi-PrCs 1
gives you a 68th level psicrystal. Bigg-ER guy is with Me.
The character would have a BAB of +2 or less - Ouch - and maybe 10 manifester levels.
But it'd also be Ph00's Ardent build.
You could also do this with Elemental Envoy instead of Psicrystal and have a party face; nowhere near as good as psicrystal.
Io7V can be done in 4 levels.
MotAO can get Spellpool 2 in 1 level, Spellpool 3 in 4 levels, Spellpool for Epic Spells with 8 levels.
Seeker of the Song is all in with 1 or 2 levels.
BOED and BOVD were designed before Bloodline-ish thinking came along. Nothing works well.
Rogue 1 / SA +1 class 1 / Major Bloodline 3 / 15 SA advancing PrC's 1
Each class has to get a +2d6 on Sneak in 2 or 3 levels
= (17*2) d6 on sneak attack.
But sneak only builds have been ditched along time ago.
*****************************
Uncanny Trickster is qualifyable with 40 skill points, restricted around the published Skill Tricks in CScoundrel.
What does Legacy Champion 2 look like ???
Does eldritch blast damage as a 1+3+10+3+3+3=23th lvl warlock (Bloodlines stack with the amount of eldritch damage you do, but not the invocations you know or the invocations you can learn). This is 10d6 eldritch damage.
Does damage as a 6th lvl Hellfire Warlock, this is 12d6 hellfire damage.
14 levels of invocations.
1+3+10+3+1+3=21 levels of Binding, thus 4th level vestiges.
Epic Ready
If lower than level 19 use more prcs such as Disciple of Green Lady or Tenebrous Apostate, Knight of the Sacred Seal, etc so you get 20th lvl binding and 4 vestiges faster.
For some reason, epic warlock says it gets EB +1d6 every 2 levels, but the example says at 22, base EB damage is 12d6.
I haven't seen anyone put sneak attack builds using this.
I posted some research on classes that give sneak damage dice, every level/2 +1 or just level/2
With multiple ones, it gets pretty high, I think I was able to get into the 30s with a gestalt build.
Page 189: Epic Warlock
The epic warlock’s eldritch blast damage should be 10d6 at 22nd level, 11d6 at 24th level, and so on.
----
Nice catch on sneak attack. It would also work with feats that stack levels of other classes for features (such as swift hunter).
"your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other classes"
To me this comes down to two level checks, one being your martial adept level (in relevant class), then half of all your other levels. This doesn't seem like the bloodline class level increase, based on the wording. Say you are:
3 warblade/2 fighter/1 barbarian/1 rogue
you would have your martial adept levels: 3 (+3 for bloodlines possibly here) + 2
It treats 1/2 your levels in all other classes as one lump sum, not as a standard class level calculation. Bloodline level seems to reference strict checks against "class level". Even reading it literally you might not get any increase in initiator level, though for your martial adept class it would only make sense.
This is the conclusion I and my gaming crew came to at least, at first we thought it could horribly break things, though on a stricter reading of things we all agreed it doesn't.
Reading the shadowcaster's Mysteries and Paths ability gain at first level you are able to learn new mysterious with each effective level of Shadowcaster, but you can not gain additional uses per day, and does not advance you pass Fundamental & Apprentice mysteries (So you can not gain Initiate or Master mysteries through bloodlines).
Still not the greatest of uses. Keep in mind, even though you lack additional uses of mysteries, you can still gain mysterious “known” and if you take at lest 2 levels of shadowcasters you gain a number of bonus feats equal to ½ the total number of path you know.
Hmn still not that great... I wonder if anyone else can do something with this?
I’d like to find a way to garb 9th level spells and the Master of Shadows PrC with the Extra familiar feat. Two Shadow Elemental familiars... but the idea falls flat without full casting.
P.S.
Edit- Do wizards still add 2 new spell to there spell books with bloodline levels?
Exactly. Unlike things like Uncanny trickster and Legacy champion, bloodlines don't advance class abilities as if you gained a level that doesn't exist, they just stack to determine the effective class level. There's no controversy in my opinion.
I came to the same conclusion myself after reading the RAW about 20 times. I am playing a Marshal 1/ Dragonfire Adept X and my DM actually pointed out that I should check into Bloodline levels to enchance my "dragon" theme. I was specifically exploring the major silver dragon bloodline:
Given this, the only thing that would advance is my CL for invocations and the DC of my breath weapon.
Based on what everyone else is saying here, I would get a major aura from Marshal as well as improved breath weapon damage dice. That doesnt seem to fit the RAW.
Am I interpreting this right?
At first glance, it looked great, but I think people might be interpreting the RAW a little fuzzy. It pretty explicitly states that you only increase CL and level dependent save DC's for class abilities (I think the Monk example screws people up). You get nothing else but a bunch of relatively minor abilities that you can duplicate through spells and items and lose out on HP, Saves, and skill points.
Without the proper build (with tons of spell casting dips) this seems like punching yourself between the legs with a spiked gauntlet.
BOED and BOVD were designed before Bloodline-ish thinking came along. Nothing works well.
Erm...Ur-Priest? Remember it adds 1/2 CL from other spellcasting classes to determine its CL (actually I think someone mentioned Ur-Priest earlier in the thread along with Sublime Chord). Regardless though it really does work extremely well with bloodlines.
... Ur-Priest ...
Oops. Yeah, except for that.
You know, casters aren't so bad with Bloodlines. Wizard 17 or Cleric 17 still get to 9s.
Obviously, the quick advancement classes help; like Ur, Sub Chord, Ardent, Beholder Mage, heck AoP, Maho.
Then, the double advancement classes provide (1+3)/(1+3); and that's pretty good.
Then, any caster-type class that also provides a +1 per level boost to Caster level, on top of the actual casting.
Mind's Eye is +1 Arcane and +1 to Divination CL; better than Green Star Adept for Divs.
Monastic Servant of Aupenser is +1 Divine and +1 to any ML; can't use Charms/controlling stuff.
I suppose the limit here, is how many PrC's can be obtained, with as few Feat slots used to get in.
Caster + Bloodlines = do-able ... needs uncapped CL spells to work
Caster + Manifester + Bloodlines + Psiotheurgist = silly ... but fun
You don't get new class features, no. But the ones you have improve, so your breath weapon gets stronger.
I disagree; by my reading, only calculations based on class level get a benefit. So if the Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon was worded something like "your breath weapon does 1d6 damage per two class levels (minimum 1d6)", then a bloodline would improve it. But some irregular progression that's not based on a formula doesn't (IMHO).
I disagree; by my reading, only calculations based on class level get a benefit. So if the Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon was worded something like "your breath weapon does 1d6 damage per two class levels (minimum 1d6)", then a bloodline would improve it. But some irregular progression that's not based on a formula doesn't (IMHO).
Correct though the warlock eldritch blast is an exception. The reason why is in the multiclass section of warlocks it states your class level determines your strength of your eldritch blast, and +1 spellcasting classes affect your eldritch blast and invocations. Bloodlines thus increase eldritch blast but not invocations.
Correct though the warlock eldritch blast is an exception. The reason why is in the multiclass section of warlocks it states your class level determines your strength of your eldritch blast, and +1 spellcasting classes affect your eldritch blast and invocations. Bloodlines thus increase eldritch blast but not invocations.
Well, personally I don't think "look in this table" is a calculation so I wouldn't allow it to advance a warlock's eldritch blast damage. I can understand that you might think I'm being overly literal, though.
The reason why is in the multiclass section of warlocks it states your class level determines your strength of your eldritch blast
Where do you see this? I don't see a multiclass section under the Warlock entry of Complete Arcane. Do you have a page number, a quote?
"An eldritch blast deals 1d6 points of damage at 1st
level and increases in power as the warlock rises in level."
That doesn't seem to imply what you are.
Levels of a prestige class that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively stack with the warlock level to determine eldritch blast damage (treat his combined caster level when looking at table 1-1 the warlock to determine his eldritch blast damage)
Mind's Eye is +1 Arcane and +1 to Divination CL; better than Green Star Adept for Divs.
Monastic Servant of Aupenser is +1 Divine and +1 to any ML; can't use Charms/controlling stuff.
I suppose the limit here, is how many PrC's can be obtained, with as few Feat slots used to get in.
Caster + Bloodlines = do-able ... needs uncapped CL spells to work
Caster + Manifester + Bloodlines + Psiotheurgist = silly ... but fun
Where can I fond the bolded classes?
The Prime Suspect
Levels of prestige classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively stack with the warlock’s level to determine his eldritch blast damage
Bloodlines are not prestige classes, and "caster level" is not the same as "level of spellcasting"
from the Unearthed Arcana:
Include the character’s bloodline level when calculating any
character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for
spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special
abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character
doesn’t gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from
the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations
of his level-based abilities are affected.
Ahh you said about multiclass not prestige classes. Plus it strictly says:
Bloodlines are not prestige classes, and "caster level" is not the same as "level of spellcasting"
from the Unearthed Arcana:
That is why you take a level in a prestige class that advances spellcasting and have it advance the warlock abilities. Then use the bloodlines to advance that prestige class levels.
That is why you take a level in a prestige class that advances spellcasting and have it advance the warlock abilities. Then use the bloodlines to advance that prestige class levels.
But it doesn't actually advance the prestige class level, it simply adds to the class level checks of that prestige class level, very different things.
The Bloodlines specifically say:
"The character doesn’t gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from
the addition of his bloodline levels"
whereas "+1 level of existing class" or "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" is a class feature and ability, not a class level check.
From
Include the character’s bloodline level when calculating any
character ability based on his class levels
For warlocks treat prcs with +1 spellcasting level, as levels that stack with warlock levels in the determining of an ability. Warlock levels are Warlock class levels. Thus bloodlines increase the benefit of his eldritch blast because of how eldritch blast is calculated.
"+1 spellcasting level"
is gained only by gaining an actual level in the prestige class, each level grants "+1 spellcasting level" as a class feature. The prestige classes do not start with a section that says
You gain +1 spellcasting level per class level.
Otherwise it would work. Yet it doesn't. So additions to "spellcasting level" are not done via a formula with "class level", they simply are class level features gained by attaining certain levels in a prestige class.
as a dm wanting to keep bloodlines in check thats a 'reasonable' interpretation of how its supposed to work.
but by raw its worded just right for abuse..
the only argument against your point is that it singles out caster level in the original text.
as a dm wanting to keep bloodlines in check thats a 'reasonable' interpretation of how its supposed to work.
but by raw its worded just right for abuse..
right, so bloodlines count for caster level checks. "caster level" is not the same word as "+1 spellcasting level". No interpretation needed, if your going literal meaning then those two things are used in all of the books as completely different entities. One ("case level") is a simply check against a number, while "+1 spellcasting level" is a prestige class level feature for some levels, very different RAW.
Except
"+1 spellcasting level"
is gained only by gaining an actual level in the prestige class, each level grants "+1 spellcasting level" as a class feature. The prestige classes do not start with a section that says
You gain +1 spellcasting level per class level.
Otherwise it would work. Yet it doesn't. So additions to "spellcasting level" are not done via a formula with "class level", they simply are class level features gained by attaining certain levels in a prestige class.
Some of them do come close. But the wording is not quite there. Several classes have wording as listed below, but the "essentially" is still there.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b
This essentially means that he adds the level of psychic theurge to the level of whatever other divine spellcasting class and manifesting class the character has, then determines spells per day, caster level, power points per day, powers known, and manifester level accordingly.
This one looks promising.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm
Levels in the hierophant prestige class, even though they do not advance spell progression in the character’s base class, still stack with the character’s base spellcasting levels to determine caster level.
Another interesting class is the Eldrich Master from Dragon 280. It adds it eldrich master levels to all arcane spell casting classes effective spell level for level based spell effects. That one would work, but I am not sure it effects your ability to get through SR.
Any others of interest? Again I am not trying to effect spell casting progression, just effective caster level since bloodlines will not advance progression and spells known.
Where can I find the psiotheurgist?
The Prime Suspect
Psiotheurgist is a feat from Dragon Magazine #349. It allows you to stack CL and ML for one school/discipline combo of your choice (e.g. Divination and Clairsentience). You'd use the Cerebremancer class to advance both, and Bloodlines to advance all three.
A simple sample build:
Psion (seer) 3/Wizard (Divination Specialist) 3/Bloodline 3/Cerebremancer 10/Arcane PrC 1
has a CL of 23 normally, a ML of 19 normally, and a CL or ML of 42 when casting a divination spell or manifesting a Clairsentience power. It'd be a great way to blow through all of your PP at once. You could pump CL even more by ditching Cerebremancer progression and taking a bunch of different Arcane PrCs. That'd help you get better than 7th level spells, too.
So
Blood 3
Wizard 5
Arcane PrC 1
Caster level 12 or 9?
If it does not, then I guess uncanny trickster is also not effected by bloodlines. Just trying to clarify.
So have we come to a conclusion that Bloodlines add to caster level of both the base class and PrC, or just the base?
So
Blood 3
Wizard 5
Arcane PrC 1
Caster level 12 or 9?
If it does not, then I guess uncanny trickster is also not effected by bloodlines. Just trying to clarify.
Yes, it works for Prestige Classes, but only within the scope of what it says it does, some choice quotes:
For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer with a major bloodline takes
a bloodline level when earns enough XP to advance in level. He
is treated as a 3rd-level spellcaster for the purpose of spell durations,
caster level checks, and so forth. But he doesn’t gain a
3rd-level sorcerer’s spells per day or spells known.
Similarly, the stunning attacks of a 3rd-level monk with one
bloodline level have a save DC equal to 12 (10 + one-half class
level) plus her Wisdom modifi er, since the bloodline level is
treated as if it were a monk class level when calculating the save
DC. A 3rd-level monk/3rd-level sorcerer with two bloodline
levels would be treated as a 5th-level spellcaster and a 5th-level
monk for determining level-based abilities.
Include the character’s bloodline level when calculating any
character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for
spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special
abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character
doesn’t gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from
the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations
of his level-based abilities are affected.
and from the official FAQ
What class features do my character’s bloodline levels
(from Unearthed Arcana) stack with? Do they stack with
only one class or with all my classes? Do they stack with
other class levels for the purpose of meeting prerequisites?
Your bloodline levels stack with your normal class levels
“when calculating any character ability based on . . . class
levels” (Unearthed Arcana, page 19). The key word here is
“calculate”—it means when you use the level as part of some
mathematical determination of the class feature’s power or
uses. Abilities that say “add your class level” count, but
abilities that say “a character of level X gains this effect” don’t.
Examples from the Player’s Handbook where bloodline
levels would stack with normal class levels include the bard’s
bardic knowledge and uses of bardic music per day; the cleric
and paladin’s effective turning level; the druid and ranger’s
wild empathy; the druid’s HD limit for wild shape; the monk’s
wholeness of body, abundant step, diamond soul, quivering
palm, and empty body; the paladin’s smite evil and lay on
hands; and perhaps most importantly, caster level.
Many class features improve as you gain levels but aren’t
specifically calculated with class level. A rogue’s sneak attack,
for example, improves at a fixed rate, but it doesn’t specifically
use your class level to calculate its value in the way that the
abilities listed above do. The same is true of a monk’s unarmed
damage, AC bonus, and unarmored speed bonus, of a
barbarian’s number of rages per day, and so on. Similarly, it
doesn’t add to the power of your animal companion, familiar,
or special mount.
Your bloodline levels never actually grant you new class
features. A 2nd-level bard with one bloodline level doesn’t gain
inspire competence (although he may use his bardic music
three times per day).
Your bloodline levels stack with all of your class levels for
this purpose. A 2nd-level cleric/2nd-level druid with one
bloodline level has a caster level of 3rd for both classes, turns
undead as a 3rd-level cleric, and adds +3 (plus his Charisma
modifier) to wild empathy checks just as a 3rd-level druid.
Bloodline levels don’t stack with class levels for the
purpose of meeting prerequisites (such as the minimum fighter
level for selecting Weapon Specialization).
If you're unsure about something then pose the question to customer service, you can usually get an answer the same day.
lol, everyone on the CO knows that CutServ is unreliable. Their answer will change based on who answers your question, gaining sever different answers from several different people. Also, they sometimes point out that its a problem for your GM to rule on.
The Prime Suspect
purpose of meeting prerequisites (such as the minimum fighter
level for selecting Weapon Specialization). "
drat. i had thought they did work for that.
lol, everyone on the CO knows that CutServ is unreliable. Their answer will change based on who answers your question, gaining sever different answers from several different people. Also, they sometimes point out that its a problem for your GM to rule on.
The Prime Suspect
Nonetheless (despite your mocking tone) their are CustServ responses quoted in many guides and pointed at as at least one possible good interpretation. No, their rulings aren't set in stone, yet are people on these forums not in CustServ that much of a better ruling? Personally I like to use all the resources available to me to try and get every possible perspective, then make my own decision from there. Ignore a potentially good source if you want though ;)
"Bloodline levels don’t stack with class levels for the
purpose of meeting prerequisites (such as the minimum fighter
level for selecting Weapon Specialization). "
drat. i had thought they did work for that.
Yup, I found that the actual text in Unearthed Arcana and the FAQ answer quite a few questions about Bloodlines. Reading some forums posts gave me a very wrong idea of what they did until I read those. Using those two as sources it's actually quite easy to determine RAW and RAI.
Mind's Eye (not to be confused with psi- Mind's Eye) is in Planar Handbook - I don't have it, snarkers.
linky - Monastic Servant of Auppenser
I've opened THE can of worms, and let me say: this exercise is less overpowered than Consumptive Field (or is it Greater). The # of spells with uncapped caster levels is few enough, that there's little chance of finding anything other than a little ripple here or there. Connected to Ardent, though, it is early entry madness like what Ph00 posted. Any psi-power with an "A", can be augmented to the sky.
A Blaster may finally be playable, if not a contorted mess.
Your bloodline levels never actually grant you new class
features. A 2nd-level bard with one bloodline level doesn’t gain
inspire competence (although he may use his bardic music
three times per day).
I'm going to have to disagree with the FAQ's interpretation of this one. Bardic Music is a class ability gained at first level. It has varying effects based on the Bard's level. Inspire Competence is a sub-ability of Bardic Music. You can't gain any new abilities from Bloodlines, but they advance existing ones (with the explicit exception of Spells Known and Spells per Day). Since anyone with Bard 1 has Bardic Music, they'll continue to gain new uses for that Class Ability as they increase their effective Bard level.
Nonetheless (despite your mocking tone) their are CustServ responses quoted in many guides and pointed at as at least one possible good interpretation. No, their rulings aren't set in stone, yet are people on these forums not in CustServ that much of a better ruling? Personally I like to use all the resources available to me to try and get every possible perspective, then make my own decision from there. Ignore a potentially good source if you want though ;)
I don't know how my above post was taken, but I have little faith in CutServ, the one time I asked a simple question they told me that the symbiotic template is not intended for player use, however it has an LA listed for it which means it is intended for player use. So I don't use anything that they say... many people are happy with responces by CutServ, if you are stay so, if not then welcome to the party.
Question:
For the "Bloodline levels don’t stack with class levels for the
purpose of meeting prerequisites (such as the minimum fighter
level for selecting Weapon Specialization). "
Do you take that to mean that an "Arcane caster level 5" would not be qualified for with a Wizard 2/Bloodline 3? I think it does, which does put a damper on early entry cheese using bloodlines in early levels. Also it stops a good bit of shinanigans I was going to work into a build.
The Prime Suspect
Do you take that to mean that an "Arcane caster level 5" would not be qualified for with a Wizard 2/Bloodline 3? I think it does, which does put a damper on early entry cheese using bloodlines in early levels. Also it stops a good bit of shinanigans I was going to work into a build.
The Prime Suspect
You'd qualify for "Arcane Caster level 5," but you wouldn't qualify for "Wizard level 5," which would be analogous to the "minimum fighter level" requirement of some feats.
You'd qualify for "Arcane Caster level 5," but you wouldn't qualify for "Wizard level 5," which would be analogous to the "minimum fighter level" requirement of some feats.
I wasn't aware of PrCs that actually had Wiz 5 as a prereq. Thank you for the clarification.
The Prime Suspect
I wasn't aware of PrCs that actually had Wiz 5 as a prereq. Thank you for the clarification.
The Prime Suspect
There aren't any. But "caster level 5" is distinct from "Wizard level 5", so it's not really comparable to the "Fighter level 4" prerequisite for Weapon Specialization.