I've came up with some changes that I'd like comments.
1) Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade get encounter powers (like 4E encounter powers) instead of their existing maneuvers. They get a number of encounter powers equal to their Maneuvers Known column.
2) Adaptive Style feat allows for a 1/day refresh of a number of maneuvers equal to your class's “Readied Manuevers” column.
3) Extra Granted Maneuver grants 1 extra Maneuver usable per encounter.
I'm not here to defend these, as I'm not attached to these changes specifically. So if you hate them/love them, let me know. If you can think of a more elegant way to convert them to per encounter powers, let me know also. Is there anything I am leaving out of the picture?
I find the idea that a "1 per encounter" ability can be balanced across the full spectrum of possible encounters ludicrous, and I am very concerned at how the mechanism will limit encounter design in 4e. A recharge mechanism, with appropriate action cost, is the only sane way to do it imo. ToB and Iron Heroes both feature that, albeit not always perfectly implemented, and I fully expected it to be in 4e as well. So far, I've seen one Warlord power that lets you recharge by spending your action point for the encounter. I'm not convinced that will be anything like enough to not constrain DMs from running interesting and varied encounters.
In summation, I think it's a bad idea. Not a dig at you, more at the 4e designers who imho have dumbed down the idea of "per encounter" balance.
Well... what ToB powers should perhaps be made at will, then? Have the classes always have two at will powers...?
Maybe a formula? Low level powers can be at will, medium can be per encounter, higher level ones can be per day?
Maybe a formula? Low level powers can be at will, medium can be per encounter, higher level ones can be per day?
It could be a sliding scale, like the Shadowcaster (Tome of Magic) has.
Boosts, Power Recovery, and Maneuvers are all good things that should have carried over and not thrown out.
If anything, we need to augment 4e to fit in with Tome of Battle and not the other way around.
Boosts, Power Recovery, and Maneuvers are all good things that should have carried over and not thrown out.
+1
If anything, we need to augment 4e to fit in with Tome of Battle and not the other way around.
Boosts, Power Recovery, and Maneuvers are all good things that should have carried over and not thrown out.
How do you know that those things are not in 4E already?
How do you know that those things are not in 4E already?
Because he has probably played 4e by now like most people?
Plus all the information on the website.
If anything, we need to augment 4e to fit in with Tome of Battle and not the other way around.
We differ. I don't like 4e at all, but I don't like the way ToB handles recovery more.
I also like the idea of the at will/per encounter/per day system. It's a very efficient, widely applicable system that can be used, somewhat organically, to balance the various power sources. I would just apply the same system to ToB with a sort of sliding scale.
Powers would gradually become usable more often. This adds a new level to maneuver selection. The current system does little to differentiate the use of a low-level and a high-level power, notably in terms of ease/timing of the use itself. With a sliding use scale, the player must compare the usefulness of a low-level maneuver at will to the usefulness of a more powerful maneuver less often. Or you could just do away with maneuver swapping, since it doesn't make any sense that you just unlearn something you spent the first 18 years of your life figuring out.
Because he has probably played 4e by now like most people?
Cute. The vast majority of those people have only played pre-generated, 1st level characters. What if 1st level characters aren't allowed to recover their powers? What if that's something reserved for higher level characters?We did find that once the daily/encounter powers had been blown through (in our case, during the first round of the dragon fight), we all simply repeated the one at-will power that seemed to work best against it.
Imo, that shows that (a) there isn't a recovery mechanism in 4e (or at least not one that is common); and (b) that there really should be.
It looks to me like the new "errrr... I guess I'll full attack again then" syndrome.
It is illogical to suggest or otherwise intimate that daily powers should be recoverable since they are daily powers.
It has been said by developers that 4e's 6 hour rest can be done multiple times in a 24 hour period and will refresh all daily powers. Is this the type of information you seek?
It is illogical to suggest or otherwise intimate that daily powers should be recoverable since they are daily powers.
It has been said by developers that 4e's 6 hour rest can be done multiple times in a 24 hour period and will refresh all daily powers. Is this the type of information you seek?
It's illogical to assume that you have played 4e before when the core books are just now being *made*.
Until June, there is no such thing as 4e RAW. At best, the 4e books and articles released are "making of" extras, giving an idea of how the system is going to work and how the books are going to shake out. Basically, it's giving you an idea of what you're going to be getting yourself into once you actually buy the books without giving you any actual rules.
It has been said by developers that 4e's 6 hour rest can be done multiple times in a 24 hour period and will refresh all daily powers. Is this the type of information you seek?
Hi risner,
Actually, PCs can only refresh their daily powers via extended rest once every 24 hours. So, at most, you could only use your daily powers 2 times a day.
That being said, the Tiers of Play article tells us Paragon Tier characters "can sometimes regain limited powers they’ve expended" and Epic Tier characters "have even more ways to recover expended powers". Also, in the Paragon Paths article, the Warlord's Sword Marshall paragon path "can spend an action point to regain one warlord encounter power you have already used, instead of taking an extra action" at 11th level.
I'd say the hard-and-fast no recoveries rule really only applies to Heroic Tier.
Incidentally, I happen to agree with the 4E developers on the issue of power recovery, at least for the most part. In Tome of Battle, every martial adept other than the Swordsage has a tendency to use their best or highest maneuver, wait for it to refresh, and then use it again. Spamming your 2 strongest maneuvers over and over again wasn't exactly what the writers had in mind for Tome of Battle, as the maneuver system is meant to encourage diverse, dynamic, and tactical combat.
I think that if you are going to have a way to recover powers, it should be like the Swordsage's recovery method and come at an actual cost and, even then, only recover 1 power at a time. It shouldn't be something you can do every other round (or, in the case of the Crusader, every round). Otherwise, its just a game of delayed spam-a-lot.
Laterz.
Is 3.5 gonna continue to get support from WOTC? Actually feels like the got melle/psionics/magic fairly right and I'll stick with it if I can.
It is illogical to suggest or otherwise intimate that daily powers should be recoverable since they are daily powers.
Hardly the best adjective to use when character powers are defined as at-will, encounter, and daily powers.
I for one loved the recovery mechanics in TOB. Finally BSF were able to measure a level of power on the Casters. As for spamming - high level Wiz/sorc/psions to the same thing (particularly blasters).
Hi Katash,
Martial adepts were certainly the least egregious offenders of "power spamming" in this regard (Fighters, Psions, Sorcerers, and Wizards were definitely all worse), but they were still offenders nonetheless.
The point I was making is simply that recovering powers should come at an actual cost, such as it does for the Swordsage. This will encourage using different powers instead of just recovering the same power over and over again.
Is 3.5 gonna continue to get support from WOTC?
Doesn't look like it. They specifically asked for people to stop sending in 3E entries for Dragon and Dungeon, since they won't be publishing those anymore.
Actually feels like the got melle/psionics/magic fairly right and I'll stick with it if I can.
If you throw away 90% of the core classes and use stuff like martial adepts, psionics, and incarnum then sure.
At which point, you're not really playing 3E anymore. You're playing 4E Lite.
Laterz.