OK... So how do I "break" E6, then? My DM thinks it's the bee's knees of balance and I want to show him up. What do I do?
Go somewhere that isn't CO?
And posting guidelines, please. We aren't here to break campaigns. We are here to make decent characters.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=919827
For starters, the level adjustment rules are a bit odd...
Go somewhere that isn't CO?
And posting guidelines, please. We aren't here to break campaigns. We are here to make decent characters.
I'm not talking about breaking the campaign, I just want to show him that E6 is just as unbalanced as Core. And we all know how unbalanced Core is.
Artificer snaps E6 like a twig. That's probably way more powerful than anything else.
Archivist 5/Cleric 1 (or Cleric 1/Archivist 5 if you start at 6th) will get you DMM Persist +3rd level spells.
Divine Power is 3rd level on the Runescarred Berserker (UE's list)
Ice Axe from Spell Compendium
Channelled Divine Shield from PHB 2
Divine Favour from Core
Wraithstrike from Cleric w spell domain (not that you need it if you're using Ice Axe).
It's as good as you'll get.
E6 is 3/10ths as unbalanced as normal d20.
Not really. It's not really possible to challenge twentieth level characters (without involving Dispater, I suppose), but you can throw high level challenges at the E6 characters and actually give them a real fight.
DJArtificer snaps E6 like a twig. That's probably way more powerful than anything else.
Actually, I was just coming to the same realization.
The DM mentioned that no magic items were available unless the caster level was 6 or below AND the highest level spell needed was 3rd or below.
However...
I noticed that the artificer gets a juicy +2 bonus to his effective caster level for the purposes of item creation. This opens the door to (among other things) stat boost items just by itself.
I think this is what I'd like to optimize. I guess my quesiton at this point is -- how else to jack up my caster level for the purposes of item creation?
Heh heh, am I reading this wrong or do artificers not actually have to be of a level needed to actually *cast* the spells required to make the magic items that they make? Looks like all they need is a UMD check. Oh, this is going to be FUN... :evillaugh
What's best is that it's an Eberron game so it's not like he can ban artificers. And anything I learn about this just helps everyone else at the table out because it makes more items available for purchase.
Cool.
Go somewhere that isn't CO?
Where else to go, really?
And posting guidelines, please. We aren't here to break campaigns. We are here to make decent characters.
I'm pretty sure I saw a wink after that line. :D
The "Optimization of E6" thread:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=919827
For starters, the level adjustment rules are a bit odd...
Q: With only 6 levels, how do races with a level adjustment work?
If you use races with a level adjustment, the 6th level cap is a big issue. Use the point buy rules in the DMG as follows:
LA Point buy
+0 32
+1 25
+2 18
+3 10
+4 00
Thus, +LA races should start with zero LA, but use the point buy listed here. Keep in mind the difference between LA and racial hit dice (the two combine to give starting ECL).
So... I wonder if we can stack up LA+4 worth of templates that makes up for the 32 point buy
So... I wonder if we can stack up LA+4 worth of templates that makes up for the 32 point buy
This one actually makes certain LA +3 or LA +2 templates kinda... powerful... You can do a lot with +8Str template and a 10 point buy, for example...
So... I wonder if we can stack up LA+4 worth of templates that makes up for the 32 point buy
Oh trust me, we can.
For instance: Feral Half-Minotaur Mineral Warrior Lolth-Touched. The sight of you makes small children cry, but egads are you powerful.
Commoner 1/Survivor 5 might not be a bad build here.
He's the Twice-Milked Spider-Cow of Bahamut.
If you have a warlock on the team, Spellwarped (LA+3) looks pretty good since you can be perpetually buffed up.
edit: hmm, Fey-ri look interesting...
Oh trust me, we can.
For instance: Feral Half-Minotaur Mineral Warrior Lolth-Touched. The sight of you makes small children cry, but egads are you powerful.
Commoner 1/Survivor 5 might not be a bad build here.
Ego Whip!!!
I'm pretty sure I saw a wink after that line. :D
@ the troll: No, you didn't.
Anyway, unlike the rest of these boards I think that Spellcasters and non-Spellcasters are balanced at level 1. Thats it. By the time level 5 rolls around, spellcasters already have everything they need to dominate the game. Thus, E6 is actually pretty worthless IMO.
Oh trust me, we can.
For instance: Feral Half-Minotaur Mineral Warrior Lolth-Touched. The sight of you makes small children cry, but egads are you powerful.
Commoner 1/Survivor 5 might not be a bad build here.
One of my players had made a tinker gnome commoner 1/survivor 5 (atm hes survivor 3 only) in my campaing.
He is invincible! Exactly the reason why monsters ignore him more or less. Mad bomber feat and skill focus alchemy. In my world you substitute craft alchemy for brew potions.
So when all the party is dead/incapacitated, with his massive con he BLOWS SPONTANEOUSLY UP WITH BOMBS! Killing everyone whos still standing. And then forces the unconcious player characters to drink potions. =P
This one actually makes certain LA +3 or LA +2 templates kinda... powerful... You can do a lot with +8Str template and a 10 point buy, for example...
Or a Pixie. :D
-4 Strength, +8 Dexterity, +6 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma.
Small size. +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
A pixie’s base land speed is 20 feet. It also has a fly speed of 60 feet (good).
Low-light vision.
Skills: Pixies have a +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
Racial Feats: A pixie receives Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats.
+1 natural armor bonus.
Special Attacks (see above): Spell-like abilities.
Special Qualities (see above): Damage reduction 10/cold iron, greater invisibility, spell resistance equal to 15 + class levels.
Automatic Languages: Common, Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Elven, Gnome, Halfling.
Favored Class: Sorcerer.
Level adjustment +4 (+6 if the pixie can use irresistible dance).
He's the Twice-Milked Spider-Cow of Bahamut.
I'm glad I wasn't drinking Mountain Dew when I read this.
Or a Pixie. :D
An 8 Con pixie. Just try not to get caught by any breath weapons (say)...
Which, since he's a warlock or somecrap and sniping you from afar, won't be hard for it to do. Rogue X / Warlock Y.
The key with the pixie is not to get hit.
Which is why I said "stay away from any breath weapons". Duh.
Which is why I said "stay away from any breath weapons". Duh.
Hee hee ... It's why I suggested Rogue for the Evasion ...
@ the troll: No, you didn't.
Really?
zarzak, post #128, "The Optimization of E6":
"Reading over this thread, I love how we've found a few things that 'break' E6. Awesomeness. No, I'm not being sarcastic ..."
So yeah. I think I did see a wink.
:D
You know what we need? We need a source of extra damage that works from over 30 feet.
Psionic shot? A Psywar X/Warlock Y could pick up a couple powers to augment it's stealth capabilities and get some bonus feats to boot.
I'm glad I wasn't drinking Mountain Dew when I read this.
Yeah, seriously, Mountain Dew sucks.
It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. ;)
Puns and wit aside, you can use Planar Shepherd and PHB II Rebuilding to get a level 6 character with effectively infinite strength whenever he uses his arms (bull rush, lifting, attacks, et cetera) as I explained here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15780034&postcount=24
What was the XP cost on the cheapest arms graft? That would be a better determination of how many you can make, rather than time.
Might be a good idea to wait till level 10 or the equivalent before trying that, so you have a good bank full of exp. You might still have to spend a year or so. Given that much time, I'm guessing most of your party would hit between 16-18.
If you made a gestalt artificer/planar shepherd, you could use the body out of body trick to create crafting buddies to minimize XP costs. Too bad, you can't do the same with brains/int/wis
Pshaw. Hardly. It makes nothing cry because it dedicated it's life to Bahamut and likes shiney dragons, unicorns and walks on the beach. It's a Dragonborn Feral Lolth-Touched Half-Minotaur.
He's the Twice-Milked Spider-Cow of Bahamut.
Dragonborn Feral Mineral Warrior Lloth-touched Half Minotaur
+16 str, -4 dex, +16 Con, -8 int, +0 wis, -2 cha
+6 NA, DR 8/Adamantine
He would be a very special boy indeed. Since he gets nothing but 8's to start...
Dragonborn Feral Mineral Warrior Lloth-touched Half Minotaur
+16 str, -4 dex, +16 Con, -8 int, +0 wis, -2 cha
+6 NA, DR 8/Adamantine
He would be a very special boy indeed. Since he gets nothing but 8's to start...
Uh. On an Orc base?
STR 28, DEX 4, CON 24, INT 3, WIS 6, CHA 4.
Your typical BSF.
I thought someone would've corrected you. I thought it was determined that the highest discrepency for faster planes was 10:1.
What was the XP cost on the cheapest arms graft? That would be a better determination of how many you can make, rather than time.
Might be a good idea to wait till level 10 or the equivalent before trying that, so you have a good bank full of exp. You might still have to spend a year or so. Given that much time, I'm guessing most of your party would hit between 16-18.
If you made a gestalt artificer/planar shepherd, you could use the body out of body trick to create crafting buddies to minimize XP costs. Too bad, you can't do the same with brains/int/wis
Actually, experience isn't an issue. With unlimited time (because of the nature of the plane; I forget the name of the plane, but it was mentioned somewhere in TO if I recall correctly), and because you gain followers from Leadership (and because the penalty for causing the deaths of followers is not cumulative), you can sacrifice your followers after they have offspring, raising and culling generations in the space of no time as perceived by the world outside. This lets you benefit from Dark Craft gold and experience.
Uh. On an Orc base?
STR 28, DEX 4, CON 24, INT 3, WIS 6, CHA 4.
Your typical BSF.
8-8(templates)-2(racial)= -2. That Orc is comatose from the get go...
+4LA has a 0 point buy...
I thought stats for characters during character creation minned out at three?
Min 1 in all except Int. PCs get a 3 int at the very lowest. You could have a -400 racial to int and you get a 3.
Min 1 in all except Int. PCs get a 3 int at the very lowest. You could have a -400 racial to int and you get a 3.
Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. Thanks for the correct, guys.
Which is why INT penalties stacked matter a lot less.
It only matters if you need him to do anything. 0 Skill points so he can't use jump with ranks. Can't understand a language (as he has a -4 to int). At least he has humanlike intelligence. It is only a point above being an animal though. Anything that lowers its intelligence even 3 points would knock him out.
Typical BSF... mine were never that stupid
Wizard: Yes, you only get 3rd level spells, but Arcane Thesis from PH2 and Metamagic School Focus allow for some disgusting things. For example, the guy who took 1 level of Wild Mage with Practiced Spellcaster and was chucking out fireballs that did 8-10d6 damage and bestowed a negative level on everyone they hit, even if they made their save (Fell Drain metamagic feat from Libris Mortis). Also, Wizards have decently high AC at this level, before magic items can outpace Greater Mage Armor and Shield.
Artificer: It's been mentioned why. I really dislike Artificers in EL6, as they politely sidestep part of the point of the format. Yeah, it makes sense thematically (guys who do nothing but make magic items should be able to make magic items better than anyone else), but I still don't like it.
Werebear: I'm not entirely certain how they work, I just know that they have about 40 STR and the one in our group took a bunch of Mage Slayer feats.
Beguiler: Using Vow of Nonviolence to boost his save DCs, this guy made anyone who wasn't immune to mind-effecting spells stop in their tracks.
Cleric (evil): So you can't get Divine Power. You can get Desecrate and Animate Dead. Along with the Deathbound Domain, that's 24 hit dice of undead, on top of your spellcasting, which ain't too shabby, DP or no. Plus, they have access to DMM: Quicken.
I haven't seen any Archivists or Warblades in action, but I suspect they'd split the game right open as well.
I haven't seen any Archivists or Warblades in action, but I suspect they'd split the game right open as well.
Archivist, yes. Warblade? I doubt that's more powerful than a barbarian, really.
This was the problem we had with E6. It became a rampant festival of power gaming. The things I noticed being overpowered in the 6-ish E6 games/one-shots that ran:
Artificer: It's been mentioned why. I really dislike Artificers in EL6, as they politely sidestep part of the point of the format. Yeah, it makes sense thematically (guys who do nothing but make magic items should be able to make magic items better than anyone else), but I still don't like it.
Yeah, but my DM came up with this "clever" idea of limiting the artificer so he can't emulate spells of higher than 3rd level in E6. Lame!
Or is it? Is there an optimized way around this nerf?
Werebear: I'm not entirely certain how they work, I just know that they have about 40 STR and the one in our group took a bunch of Mage Slayer feats.
Hmm... Interesting, but how do you even play a werebear in E6? They appear to have seven levels coming out of the box.