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| #1ShevarashMay 19, 2015 5:38:57 | The goal: To make a brutal/sneaky killer, without the necessity of being evil.
The means: Every official 3.5 sourcebook, dragon/ dungeon issue, except Tome of Battle.
The concept: A playable and flavorful character, without over - abusement of races, templates and things like that. No, I’m not interested in making a shadow with levels in thrall of Graaz’t and a +4 large bane acidic burst wounding vorpal whip-dagger.
The method: The character is meant to be played as a PC. So I rolled 5d6 drop lowest 2. As a DM, I like to give my characters a good chance to have at least 2 good scores and decent the remaining 4. Anyway, this character needs a rather good Dex and an above average Cha. I don’t care about Str at all, since the main bulk of damage will be sneak attack (and sudden strike). A fairly good amount of skill points is needed as well, but with the rogue levels no more than 13 Int is required. A decent Con score is appreciated, but not really necessary. An average Wis is acceptable, since the character is supposed to strike first and hard, so she won’t be needing to roll Will saves so often (hopefully). Here are my stats:
Str 13 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 11 Cha 15
I choose human as a race, ‘cause I’m in need of feats. Also, the extra skill points are not bad at all. Since I’ m going to follow the Avenging Executioner PrC my character’s alignment is going to be Neutral (any non-good choice will suffice, ofc).
Traits: One of the main skills I need to maximize is Intimidate. There’s this wonderful trait from Dragon magazine #356, p89 called “Unnatural Aura” that gives+2 to Intimidate and -2 to any interaction with animals and vermin (really?).
Flaws: The option of flaws is clearly subjective. I mean, the character plays smoothly (I think) without them. However, for reasons of completeness I will present the build with them. So I pick Murky Eyed (roll 2ice vs concealment, fail if one roll fails) and Shaky (-2 to ranged attacks). Both of them can be found in Unearthed Arcana and it is obvious that their effect on the specific character is minimal. Now the choice of classes… I read through Rogue’s Handbooks through the net and though I found useful ideas for feats and alternative class features, I didn’t like the builds I saw there. Several PrCs are mentioned, like Nightsong Enforcer, but since I like to play by the rules and at the same time keeping up with realism (as defined by a fantasy game that is), I don’t like the idea of suggesting to my players to enlist to a guild (as the Nightsong and Guild Thief PrCs suggest) to be able to deal lethal blows. I also don’t want to dip in classes that include spellcasting, since this will make the evolution really, really slow. An issue many “builders” seem to forget is that a playable character has to be playable through all levels, not just at level 20. So enough with chit-chat. Let’s cut to the chase.
1st – Ftr1 – TWFighting, W. Finesse, W. Focus (kukri), Born Under the Full Moon, Persuasive
Needless to say, I choose Fighter as my first level for the Hp. There is an option of an alternative Fighter in Unearthed Arcana. You lose bonus feats to get sneak attack. I pass. I need those feats for versatility. What can you do with many sneak attack damage dice, if you can’t get the chance to deliver it often?
Why not Swashbuckler some will say…I know about Daring Outlaw feat. It’s the feats again. More feats, more versatility. Remember. The character must be as playable (and flavorful) as possible through all levels.
I need as many attacks as I can get. Ofc, I don’t delude myself that I’m going the Tempest way, but TW Fighting I think is a must. I choose kukri as my weapon for both hands. It’ s a light weapon so I can take advantage of my high Dex (which is high to compensate for lack of heavy armor) and has a really nice crit range (18 – 20), which I will take advantage of in later levels. Needless to say, it’s not a rare weapon, so a magical version later on will not be so hard to get. I choose Persuasive to boost my Intim further and Born Under the Full Moon (Dragon magazine #340, p57) to get another +1 to Intim and a nice spell – like ability (command) 1/day, at character caster level.
In case some people don’t allow or don’t care for flaws, the feats not absolutely necessary are Born UtFM and Persuasive.
2nd – Rog1 – sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding
I need to start building up some precision damage and skills. As hard as I looked through game material, I couldn’t find an attractive, worthwhile alternative to trapfinding. After all, with so many skill points, why not make my brutal executioner a trap – finder/ destroyer as well?
3rd – Ftr2 – Craven, Impr. Initiative
Craven (Ch of Ruin, p17). What a wonderful feat! IMO, it should be 1st – lvl only, since it’s not so logical to develop a sensitivity to fear effects, but it isn’t. So take it. Don’t even blink about thinking about it. Then Improved Initiative. With a Dex score at 18 at 4th level you will have a +8 modifier to Initiative. More chances to hit them when they don’t know where it came from!
4th – Rog2 – Evasion, +1 Dex
The +1 in Dex need not be explained. Evasion is always a nice ability and after all I need to get to Rog3 for that extra sneak attack die.
5th – Rog3 – sneak attack +2d6, Penetrating Strike (Dung, p13), skill trick: never outnumbered
Extra sneak attack die, alternative to trap sense (major crap!) that gives the chance to deliver ½ precision damage dice to flanked enemies, even if they are normally immune to precision damage. Now I’ll need to get better chances to flank them. Adaptable Flanker is a good feat, but unfortunately requires two more (Combat Reflexes (highly situational) and Vexing Flanker). I can’t spare two feats, so I pass on it.
Since I have so many skill points, why not a nice skill trick that fits nicely with my character’s profile?
6th – Ftr3 – Travel Devotion
What? Why Travel Devotion? Cause it gives you two choices: to quickly close to enemy and deliver a full attack or quickly back away from a dangerous situation. It’s only 1/day, I know. I still find it useful. Any suggestion for alternative choices would be welcome, ofc.
7th – Avg Ex1 – Bloody Blade DC13, sudden strike +1d6
The path begins. The loop of sudden strike - shaken/ frightened/ panicked – flat-footed – susceptible to sudden strike, sneak attack is starting to form. Forgot to mention, by that level you should have maxed out Tumble and Intimidate and ofc put at least 4 ranks to each of Move Silently and Hide, since the last two are prereqs for the PrC. But I don’t see how this will be a problem at all, with so many skill points to spend.
8th - Avg Ex2 – +1 Cha, Rapid Intimidation, Bloody Blade DC15
I hear you. Why the +1 on Cha and not on Dex. Be my guest. I choose Cha ‘cause I want to strengthen my Cha – based abilities DCs. But more Dex means more chances to hit and better AC, so go for it, if you so choose. Needless to explain the usefulness of Rapid Intimidation.
9th - Avg Ex3 – Bloody Blade DC16, sudden strike +2d6, Telling Blow, skill trick: Acrobatic Backstab
More precision damage. A superb skill trick if you have Tumble maximized. And a feat you’ll better exploit later on. I want to increase my chances for precision damage dealing. I already have a weapon that scores a crit with a 15% chance. When I increase this chance (remember, I can’t yet take Improved Critical, since I lack the BAB prereq), I will also be able to deliver my precision damage more often.
10th - Avg Ex4 – Bloody Blade DC17, Dread Blade
The loop is complete. The question is, when the opponent is shaken/ frightened/ panicked will I be eligible to deliver sneak attack damage, in addition to sudden strike damage? Since the concept of the ability is that the character is able to find weak spots in shaken/…etc opponents, why not deal his sneak attack damage as well? After all, according to RAW sudden strike damage qualifies as sneak attack damage for the purpose of feat prereqs. So, yes. I deem it’s only natural to treat shaken/…etc opponents as flat –footed for the purpose of delivering sneak attack as well.
11th - Avg Ex5 – Bloody Blade DC18, Bloody Murder DC18, sudden strike +3d6
I personally find Bloody Murder highly situational, but I need the 5th level to get the extra d6 in sudden strike.
12th – Ftr4 – +1 Dex, Ability Focus (Bloody Blade), Impr. Critical (kukri), Bloody Blade DC20
Fighter for the BAB and the bonus feat. I need my bloody blade to be effective, so I choose to focus on it. I increase my chances to deliver crit + precision damage (30% chance for each attack).
Useful stats
Abilities at 12th lvl: Str 13, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 16 Att bonus (BAB + ability + W.Focus): +12/+7/+12 (with off-hand attack) Total precision damage (sneak att + sudd strike + Craven feat): 5d6 +12 Crit damage: 30% with each attack, 2d4 + 2 + 5d6 +12 Hps: 34 + 3d10 + 3d6 + 5d8 (avg 84) Total Intimidate mod: (2 trait + 2 synergy + 15 ranks + 3 ability + 2 feat) = 23 Total Tumble mod: (2 synergy + 15 ranks + 4 ability) = 21 Evasion, Command 1/day, CL 12
So, at 12th level I have a decent chance to hit (taking into account that the opponent will be flat-footed or flanked more often than not). I have 4 ways to deliver my precision damage: hit first in a round (Travel Devotion, Impr. Initiative), flank (acrob. backstab), get them flat-footed (bloody blade + dread blade + rapid intimidation), crit them (30% chance with each attack). I also have a fair chance to deliver half my precision damage vs undead, constructs, plants, oozed and the like.
Final note: a really useful magical item IMO would be a magical kukri that is enspelled with wracking touch. Wracking Touch enables you to deliver sneak attack damage through a melee touch attack. So I figure that a weapon imbued with this spell will give the wielder the option to do so through the very weapon. According to my calculations (and the DMG) a said magical kukri would cost around 9600gp (9508gp to be exact). A surely justifiable amount for the given level (12th).
Any suggestions/ remarks/ objections?
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| #2StevenOMay 19, 2015 7:28:40 |
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| #3Slagger_the_ChuulMay 19, 2015 8:15:09 | Regarding the idea of a wracking touch weapon, imbuing a spell into a weapon doesn't automatically change how it works. Obviously, you'd often make such an adjustment for practical purposes when designing an item, but then you'd want to consider how valuable the overall effect is for the price, rather than just following the default formula.
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| #4Tempest_StormwindMay 19, 2015 12:01:22 | Oh my. There is so much wrong with this, and even more poorly done, that I almost don't know where to begin.
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| #5StevenOMay 19, 2015 12:27:11 | Actually, I just did it (sblockmy comment) because some places and people don't like to see the accurate, but overall negative, comments that are going against what someone is trying to do. It doesn't happen here so much but where we still talk about StarWars SAGA Edition I sometimes get accused of telling people "how to play the game" when they are throwing out new stuff and 'overpowered" characters/ideas. The (sblock) to the quote is simply to keep things clean and to keep a record of what I was commenting on.
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| #6ShevarashMay 19, 2015 18:34:56 |
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| #7Slagger_the_ChuulMay 19, 2015 18:43:36 |
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| #8Tempest_StormwindMay 19, 2015 19:28:16 | Apologies; your reply indicates a degree of sincerity I didn't gather from reading your initial post.
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| #9Slagger_the_ChuulMay 19, 2015 20:32:14 |
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| #10Luna_TriggerMay 19, 2015 20:59:09 |
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| #11Slagger_the_ChuulMay 19, 2015 21:25:42 |
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| #12Luna_TriggerMay 19, 2015 21:47:36 |
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| #13ShevarashMay 19, 2015 22:33:08 | Wow! Never thought a mere experiment would trigger such debate...
I thank you all for your contribution.
I got the point of what Tempest, Slagger (grats on co - authoring those monsters, btw!) and Luna say. Guess I'll have to take items more seriously into account and study ToB a bit. As for the ability score method, I think I'll stick to 5d6. It is legal and I don't see any reason for unbalancing the game. After all, we want the players to achieve epic feats, don't we?
I know the fear - Intimidate concept is not as effective as others, I just wanted to experiment. And ofc, there is the never-ending effort to make sneak attack/ sudden strike trigger more often than not.
P.S. You are welcome to comment on my Champion of Shevarash thread |
| #14Slagger_the_ChuulMay 19, 2015 22:56:16 | EDIT:
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| #15ShevarashMay 19, 2015 23:20:55 |
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| #16Luna_TriggerMay 20, 2015 0:21:21 |
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| #17Slagger_the_ChuulMay 20, 2015 1:22:42 |
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| #18Luna_TriggerMay 20, 2015 11:14:29 |
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| #19Tempest_StormwindMay 20, 2015 13:13:10 |
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| #20Luna_TriggerMay 20, 2015 14:01:35 |
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| #21Slagger_the_ChuulMay 20, 2015 23:40:27 |
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| #22Luna_TriggerMay 21, 2015 0:45:18 |
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| #23Slagger_the_ChuulMay 21, 2015 1:39:58 |
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| #24Luna_TriggerMay 21, 2015 10:57:59 |
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| #25Slagger_the_ChuulMay 21, 2015 21:43:51 |
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| #26Luna_TriggerMay 21, 2015 22:34:52 | Wrong, yet again. You're obviously being intentionally dense at this point. Unless you actually have something to say, we're done. |
| #27Slagger_the_ChuulMay 22, 2015 1:46:12 |
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| #28Luna_TriggerMay 22, 2015 8:30:54 |
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| #29Slagger_the_ChuulMay 22, 2015 11:59:55 |
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| #30Luna_TriggerMay 22, 2015 11:51:14 |
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| #31Slagger_the_ChuulMay 22, 2015 12:24:43 |
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| #32Luna_TriggerMay 22, 2015 13:56:20 |
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| #33Slagger_the_ChuulMay 22, 2015 20:14:50 |
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| #34Luna_TriggerMay 23, 2015 7:30:45 |
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| #35Slagger_the_ChuulMay 23, 2015 9:46:25 |
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| #36Luna_TriggerMay 23, 2015 11:00:33 | Repeating lies doesn't make them true.
But given that you've failed to actually support your "argument," I think we're done. Call me when you finally discover what a fact is. |
| #37Slagger_the_ChuulMay 24, 2015 0:00:07 |
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