Build Challenge- Total Defense - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Build Challenge- Total Defense

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
bighairygeekman
May 19, 2008 18:32:16 Ok so I was just playing d20 modern and I made a shadow slayer who fought full defense and attacked on with counter-attacks/ attacks of opportunity. Now my DM is taking all our characters and sending them into the fantasy world.

So I have to remake him using fantasy rules. The thing is I am totally lost when it comes to building him, I can't seem to find the feats to allow him to fight total defense and attack every turn. Basically what I'm saying is I need your help.

I was planning on making him an assassin but any class that would fit the total defense thing just through it up. I would appreciate anything from one feat to an entire build. Thanks a lot guys.
#2
erhnamdj
May 19, 2008 23:13:00 From the SRD: Total Defense
You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

Now, what you can do is fight using Combat Expertise. You might want to check out the feats Robilar's Gambit from Player's Handbook 2 and Karmic Strike from Complete Warrior. Those both let you make an attack of opportunity when you are attacked (only when you're actually hit if using Karmic Strike, though, so it is somewhat counterproductive to use it with Combat Expertise.)

What is a shadow slayer? What level? What are you ability scores? What books do you have available? What weapons do you use? Are you more of a skill type or a frontline melee guy? We need to know these things to help you.
#3
operation_shoestring
May 20, 2008 2:15:59 What books is your DM allowing? And do you just thematically want to be an assassin, or do you actually want to take levels in the Assassin PrC (which kinda sucks, by the way)?
#4
bighairygeekman
May 20, 2008 13:35:53 I was kinda trying to give you guys free rein but here are some more specifics.
First I have all 3.5 books not kidding rich older brother.
Second I was thinking level 13 human using ranger to get into assassin PrC.
I got items to change stats but mostly str and dex with a little into int and wis.
Yeah I got the Robilars Gambt feat, I just wondered if there was more.

Also maybe a way to make att of opp sneak?
#5
operation_shoestring
May 20, 2008 14:55:55
I was kinda trying to give you guys free rein but here are some more specifics.
First I have all 3.5 books not kidding rich older brother.
Second I was thinking level 13 human using ranger to get into assassin PrC.

Assassin sucks and has no synergy with ranger. Try looking up the Swift Hunter, you may like that. Alternatively, Ninja/Avenging Executioner.

I got items to change stats but mostly str and dex with a little into int and wis. Yeah I got the Robilars Gambt feat, I just wondered if there was more.

You could add karmic strike, too, but your DM might hit you.

Also maybe a way to make att of opp sneak?

Not unless your DM is allowing Dragon Mag or you hit Epic.
#6
curtis_ownby
May 20, 2008 19:38:12 What you want is Active Shield Defense PH2 page 71.:D It will do the job. I would pick up the Sheild Ward as well. Yes this means you will need to use a sheild of some kind. You will be sending at least two feats, three if you Sheild Ward as well. They are Fighter feats so a two level dip will get them for you. Also do not forget to get at least 5 ranks in tumble.

Another feat that would help would be Combat Reflexes,you will also need a high Dex go with it.
#7
surreal
May 20, 2008 21:45:12 The Hin Disciple monk substitution level (Champions of Valor - web enhancement) at 6th level lets you take a full defence action and still make a single attack.
#8
stormbrooke
May 20, 2008 21:54:02
From the SRD: Total Defense
You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

Am I missing something? You can't make AoOs while using Total Defense... and before you say feats, they use AoOs. How is this build working?
#9
curtis_ownby
May 20, 2008 22:36:02 For the Ideal to be reasonably playable you need three feats, one of which you can not any earlier than 12th level. Even then you only get a net gain of two to AC and you loss 4 to attacks. On top of this you are only able to attack when someone first attacks you. If you could get it to work without Robilar's Gambit the ideal could work. It would work great if Robilar's Gambit gives you attacks of AoO from AoO, if you add the feat Moblility but then you need dodge. So you could do it but for it to be able to work all of the time it is just too costly when it comes to feats unless you have a super high Dex like about 24 or higher other wise there are better ways to take out the enemy. You could make a working build but then it would only in a few cases, on the up side it would only take to feats one of which is useful almost all of the time. Other wise you are looking at about five or more feats.

Feats: Robilar's Gambit, Shield Specialization, Active Shield Defence, Dodge, and Mobility.
#10
aelryinth
May 21, 2008 1:14:14 Actually, you can make AoO's while in Full Defense, as far as I know.

He was using riposte...when someone misses you in a fight, get an AoO on them.

There's no identical feat in 3E, although there's some similar ones out there. I would really just suggest getting a good AC shield build, deft opportunist, and learning how to turtle if that's how you want to play it. Keep in mind your damage might suffer some, but that shouldn't be a problem...d20 Modern is also MUCH more restricted on spells and dmg then D&D is, so you might want to be careful, as the two games are not strictly balanced.

===Aelryinth
#11
Xeraph
May 21, 2008 2:49:24 Kalashtar with Path of Shadows and Dancing with the Shadows can exploit fighting defensively very very good.
#12
erhnamdj
May 21, 2008 4:04:25
Actually, you can make AoO's while in Full Defense, as far as I know.

Is full defense the same as total defense? Because: You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.
#13
kuroimaken
May 21, 2008 11:43:24
Is full defense the same as total defense? Because: You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

I believe he meant the same thing.

Either way, I'd recommend you seek out Caelic's Jack B. Quick build. (Ah, here's the link: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=646185) Some might argue he's a bit of a cheater, though. The build is very playable by level 12, and it fits what you're looking for, provided you're not worried about using Hide and Move Silently.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bighairygeekman May 19, 2008 18:32:16	Ok so I was just playing d20 modern and I made a shadow slayer who fought full defense and attacked on with counter-attacks/ attacks of opportunity. Now my DM is taking all our characters and sending them into the fantasy world. So I have to remake him using fantasy rules. The thing is I am totally lost when it comes to building him, I can't seem to find the feats to allow him to fight total defense and attack every turn. Basically what I'm saying is I need your help. I was planning on making him an assassin but any class that would fit the total defense thing just through it up. I would appreciate anything from one feat to an entire build. Thanks a lot guys.
#2 erhnamdj May 19, 2008 23:13:00	From the SRD: Total Defense You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense. Now, what you can do is fight using Combat Expertise. You might want to check out the feats Robilar's Gambit from Player's Handbook 2 and Karmic Strike from Complete Warrior. Those both let you make an attack of opportunity when you are attacked (only when you're actually hit if using Karmic Strike, though, so it is somewhat counterproductive to use it with Combat Expertise.) What is a shadow slayer? What level? What are you ability scores? What books do you have available? What weapons do you use? Are you more of a skill type or a frontline melee guy? We need to know these things to help you.
#3 operation_shoestring May 20, 2008 2:15:59	What books is your DM allowing? And do you just thematically want to be an assassin, or do you actually want to take levels in the Assassin PrC (which kinda sucks, by the way)?
#4 bighairygeekman May 20, 2008 13:35:53	I was kinda trying to give you guys free rein but here are some more specifics. First I have all 3.5 books not kidding rich older brother. Second I was thinking level 13 human using ranger to get into assassin PrC. I got items to change stats but mostly str and dex with a little into int and wis. Yeah I got the Robilars Gambt feat, I just wondered if there was more. Also maybe a way to make att of opp sneak?
#5 operation_shoestring May 20, 2008 14:55:55	I was kinda trying to give you guys free rein but here are some more specifics. First I have all 3.5 books not kidding rich older brother. Second I was thinking level 13 human using ranger to get into assassin PrC. Assassin sucks and has no synergy with ranger. Try looking up the Swift Hunter, you may like that. Alternatively, Ninja/Avenging Executioner. I got items to change stats but mostly str and dex with a little into int and wis. Yeah I got the Robilars Gambt feat, I just wondered if there was more. You could add karmic strike, too, but your DM might hit you. Also maybe a way to make att of opp sneak? Not unless your DM is allowing Dragon Mag or you hit Epic.
#6 curtis_ownby May 20, 2008 19:38:12	What you want is Active Shield Defense PH2 page 71.:D It will do the job. I would pick up the Sheild Ward as well. Yes this means you will need to use a sheild of some kind. You will be sending at least two feats, three if you Sheild Ward as well. They are Fighter feats so a two level dip will get them for you. Also do not forget to get at least 5 ranks in tumble. Another feat that would help would be Combat Reflexes,you will also need a high Dex go with it.
#7 surreal May 20, 2008 21:45:12	The Hin Disciple monk substitution level (Champions of Valor - web enhancement) at 6th level lets you take a full defence action and still make a single attack.
#8 stormbrooke May 20, 2008 21:54:02	From the SRD: Total Defense You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense. Am I missing something? You can't make AoOs while using Total Defense... and before you say feats, they use AoOs. How is this build working?
#9 curtis_ownby May 20, 2008 22:36:02	For the Ideal to be reasonably playable you need three feats, one of which you can not any earlier than 12th level. Even then you only get a net gain of two to AC and you loss 4 to attacks. On top of this you are only able to attack when someone first attacks you. If you could get it to work without Robilar's Gambit the ideal could work. It would work great if Robilar's Gambit gives you attacks of AoO from AoO, if you add the feat Moblility but then you need dodge. So you could do it but for it to be able to work all of the time it is just too costly when it comes to feats unless you have a super high Dex like about 24 or higher other wise there are better ways to take out the enemy. You could make a working build but then it would only in a few cases, on the up side it would only take to feats one of which is useful almost all of the time. Other wise you are looking at about five or more feats. Feats: Robilar's Gambit, Shield Specialization, Active Shield Defence, Dodge, and Mobility.
#10 aelryinth May 21, 2008 1:14:14	Actually, you can make AoO's while in Full Defense, as far as I know. He was using riposte...when someone misses you in a fight, get an AoO on them. There's no identical feat in 3E, although there's some similar ones out there. I would really just suggest getting a good AC shield build, deft opportunist, and learning how to turtle if that's how you want to play it. Keep in mind your damage might suffer some, but that shouldn't be a problem...d20 Modern is also MUCH more restricted on spells and dmg then D&D is, so you might want to be careful, as the two games are not strictly balanced. ===Aelryinth
#11 Xeraph May 21, 2008 2:49:24	Kalashtar with Path of Shadows and Dancing with the Shadows can exploit fighting defensively very very good.
#12 erhnamdj May 21, 2008 4:04:25	Actually, you can make AoO's while in Full Defense, as far as I know. Is full defense the same as total defense? Because: You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.
#13 kuroimaken May 21, 2008 11:43:24	Is full defense the same as total defense? Because: You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense. I believe he meant the same thing. Either way, I'd recommend you seek out Caelic's Jack B. Quick build. (Ah, here's the link: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=646185) Some might argue he's a bit of a cheater, though. The build is very playable by level 12, and it fits what you're looking for, provided you're not worried about using Hide and Move Silently.