build contest

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

gsman

May 30, 2009 20:04:40		Arcane vs. divine. Which will win? In 2 weeks, what can the members of this board come up with? well... lets find out shall we? I suppose you want rules...

1) only use the spellcasting from your respective type for the build.
2) use 32 point buy
3) level 20 max
4) average HP, but still max at 1st level
5) standard gold for a level 20 character, as found in DMG, however much that is.
That's it. Sound fun?

List of allowed books: PHB/PHBII/DMG/DMGII/MMI-III(feats only, humanoid races please)/complete(warrior/divine/arcane/adventurer/mage).

Where will this fight take place?

An arena sounds fair

What will the terrain be like?
As it is an arena, it is flat

Will there be a buff round?
One

Will contestants be allowed to walk in with buffs on them?
No

Are cohorts allowed?
One on one, plus cohorts, so yes

How about followers?
This isn't a war here

What is your view on planar travel?
As long as it's done during the fight, it's cool

What about using divination to prepare for the other persons build?
Yeah, the spells prepared and whatnot, of course, but feats and such will be chosen before you know what the build is

Can creatures be summoned to fight for you?
Like summon nature's ally or something? It's a spell, isn't it(yes)

This is just a fun thing, nothing in particular rushing this one, but lets decide on a date to have builds by anyway. someone make a different topic for the arcane caster and I won't look in it, we'll discuss the divine caster here, and um... well, trust you guys not to look here. Does anyone else think this sounds like a cool idea?

EDIT: Make a build by yourself, NO PUN-PUN when everyone's ready, we'll post them.
EDIT2: additional info added
#2

ninjarabbit

May 30, 2009 21:29:54 		How about both

wizard5/mindbender1/ur-priest2/mysticthuerge8/x4

The point is that evil always wins
#3

emy

May 30, 2009 23:28:51
How about both

wizard5/mindbender1/ur-priest2/mysticthuerge8/x4

The point is that evil always wins

I'm sure X 4 could end up being Dweomerkeeper (it's in Complete Divine. Well, the web enhancement, at least.) if you can get Magic domain access. That would allow a 1/day Supernatural Spell.
#4

dr_rocktopus

May 31, 2009 0:36:05 		See if these extra large shoes fits. Be careful not to drop the other one.
#5

winternacht

May 31, 2009 6:56:22
1) only use the spellcasting from your respective type for the build.

Is it that difficult to read?
#6

dandu

May 31, 2009 7:02:34
Arcane vs. divine. Which will win?

Define win.
#7

Senevri

May 31, 2009 7:25:22
Define win.

I'm easily amused, so outside the obvious...
...
Or maybe not that obvious. I kinda like the "Has advantage over" definition.

Now, where was I?

Certain builds, are indeed made of Win, and it should be pretty obvious. Ruby Knight Windicator even has it in the title. Not sure if such a level of Win is required here, as it doesn't really require challenging the opposition...

But, come to think of it, who would win, a Cheater of Mystra vs. a Killer Gnome? Hmm.
#8

gsman

May 31, 2009 19:39:37 		Win: kill the other one, assuming that neither of them got lots of criticals or failed saves(barring the saves that fail on average) and such.

No, you may not do both. I am working on divine, lets just turn this into an individual person contest. Everyone pick one or the other and post it at a later date(to be determined)

EDIT: This is hard... how do you get decent caster level out of two different classes, I considered a druid/cleric, but that's not looking like it'll work. Maybe a favored soul or something.
#9

gsman

Jun 04, 2009 20:35:39 		Sorry for the double post, but... Does practiced spellcaster work for divine spellcasting classes? I see nothing that says it doesn't but, hey, no harm in double checking(complete divine, p. 82)
#10

SwordDisciple

Jun 04, 2009 21:14:15
Sorry for the double post, but... Does practiced spellcaster work for divine spellcasting classes? I see nothing that says it doesn't but, hey, no harm in double checking(complete divine, p. 82)

Here is the example from Complete Divine

For example, a human 5th-level cleric/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his cleric caster level from 5th to 8th (since he has 8 HD). If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his cleric caster level would become 9th (since he now has 9 HD).

How about yes?
#11

pyro_azer

Jun 04, 2009 21:36:05
Win: kill the other one, assuming that neither of them got lots of criticals or failed saves(barring the saves that fail on average) and such.

OK. A few problems:

This is not enough information.

Where will this fight take place?

What will the terrain be like?

Will there be a buff round?

Will contestants be allowed to walk in with buffs on them?

Are cohorts allowed?

How about followers?

What is your view on planar travel?

What about using divination to prepare for the other persons build?

Can creatures be summoned to fight for you?

etc.
#12

gsman

Jun 04, 2009 21:52:43
OK. A few problems:

This is not enough information.

Where will this fight take place?

An arena sounds fair

What will the terrain be like?
As it is an arena, it is flat

Will there be a buff round?
One

Will contestants be allowed to walk in with buffs on them?
No

Are cohorts allowed?
One on one, plus cohorts, so yes

How about followers?
This isn't a war here :P

What is your view on planar travel?
As long as it's done during the fight, it's cool

What about using divination to prepare for the other persons build?
Yeah, the spells prepared and whatnot, of course, but feats and such will be chosen before you know what the build is

Can creatures be summoned to fight for you?
Like summon nature's ally or something? It's a spell, isn't it(yes)

etc.

Answers in bold, I'll copy this to the first post.

Another thing, I've decided I won't be entering. As I worked on this build, I found me a fun sounding one, and wanna play it.
#13

SwordDisciple

Jun 04, 2009 22:02:23 		Why not play it AND test it in your arena?

Further. Are you allowing Timestop? Celerity? Shapechange? Gate? etc.. Because you will be putting the Divine characters automatically on the back foot
#14

gsman

Jun 04, 2009 22:13:17 		Further. Are you allowing Timestop? Celerity? Shapechange? Gate? etc.. Because you will be putting the Divine characters automatically on the back foot

Would you guys consider one use of timestop reasonable? What's celerity? Shapechange, go ahead, but remain the same size you were before you used it. What you mean gate? Thinking about htis before bed is making my brain hurt, I'll post a coherent answer in the morning.
#15

SwordDisciple

Jun 04, 2009 22:27:56 		Ok......?


Timestop is a stable of a High Level Caster..

Celerity is in the PHB2.. Check it out

So you'll allow Shapechange but limit the size options?????

Gate is another often-used 9th Level spell..

I would make yourself knowledgeable on these and other high-powered spells if you are going to limit/disallow them..
#16

Senevri

Jun 05, 2009 4:20:37 		Okay, so... presuming I win init, I will hit the opposition with Disjunction and use Belt of Battle to activate Time Stop. I gate in a couple of big huge destroyers (fiendish reds or celestial golds, say), and put the opponent in an AMF. Then I turtle up. If it's ruled that I cannot command the dragons during time stop, I can use a Delay Spell'd sound figment of some sort for their orders.

This can be done with either an arcane caster, or with a divine caster possessing appropriate domains, I believe.

Now, both sides will be trying to win Init, so we can presume both have very high inits. Is Chronotyryn medium? What sort of a contingency could we use for winning the init? Contingent Wish should manage, at least -- unless opponent is using it, too.
#17

gsman

Jun 05, 2009 9:19:43
Ok......?


Timestop is a stable of a High Level Caster..

Celerity is in the PHB2.. Check it out

So you'll allow Shapechange but limit the size options?????

Gate is another often-used 9th Level spell..

I would make yourself knowledgeable on these and other high-powered spells if you are going to limit/disallow them..

Now that thinking is not giving me a headache, here's your coherent answers.

Celerity looks awesome, go ahead. Time stop, if you have X spells per day of that level, you can cast it that many times. Shapechange, yeah, go ahead with like normal, no limit on size options. Gate is fair, as spells per day are limited. So, if theres any more "can I use this spell" questions, the answer is "go ahead, but it can't kill them outright(unless it's like fireball)"
#18

jaronk

Jun 05, 2009 12:50:56 		For the divine side, I'd go with Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Tenebrous Apostate 1, using the divine adaptation of Anima Mage. This gives you access to all spells from the Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, and Adept lists, plus a few more (and all the domain lists!). You also get endless metamagic (Tainted Sorcerer + Naberius) and no spell component costs (Tainted Sorcerer + Persistant Vigorous Circle). And you can cast all the overpowered shadow magic spells you want (Shadow Genesis, anyone?).

Be a gnome with two flaws, and the feat loadout would be Improved Binding, Heighten Spell, Spell Focus (Illusion), Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Residual Metamagic, Echoing Spell. Pump Con and Wis (might as well have a decent Int too). Gear is almost irrelevant, but you might as well aim for a high initiative, high wisdom, and caster level boosts. Your casting is based on your taint score, which can be as high as one less than twice your wisdom... note that there's no taint modifier, just the score, so if you had a wisdom of 21 and a taint of 40 you'd be casting as though your casting stat was 90. Wheeee!

Strategy? Contingent Celerity, going off whenever the arena fight starts (use whatever the signal is for the game starting to trigger it). Be in a persistant shapechange as a dire tortoise to ensure you have to go first. During the granted round, cast Time Stop, followed by a plane shift to the astral and then casting Shadow Genesis (make sure you take with you some stone for you to stand on, you need it for Earth Spell). Make your new plane Flowing Time 100,000,000,000, in addition to whatever other attributes you desire (positive energy dominant can be fun, so can the shadow trait that auto maximizes all shadow spells). Now you have millions of actions before your opponent even gets to roll initiative. Open up a Shadow Gate (it takes a first level spell slot for you, just like Genesis) to near your opponent and blow the heck out of them with something nasty (your choice). If that doesn't work, try again... you've got literally years before they can even act.

When you're done, go back and declare victory. It will all have happened so fast that no one will have seen you leave.

Okay, there's my strategy, and you can read it yourself and decide if you've got something that can beat that.

JaronK
#19

emy

Jun 05, 2009 13:11:35
Shadow Genesis

I was considering something very similar, for a different contest. What do you do about the "At first, the fledgling plane grows at a rate of 1 foot in radius per day to an initial maximum radius of 180 feet" bit, if anything?
#20

jaronk

Jun 05, 2009 13:17:55 		It's a description of how it grows over the course of a week (the casting time). Shadow genesis shrinks that casting time down to 1 standard action. So, I think it's fine. If the DM does not agree, simply cast it beforehand, then use your contingent celerity to cast Plane Shift (which is a 5th level spell for you, yay Archivists!) to go to your plane.

I just felt like it was making more of a point to do it on the fly before your opponent can even blink.

I should note that the head of this little tourney seems to think spells are limited, so I was showing off the fact that they really aren't. Assuming my little guy can manage a wisdom of 21 by level 20 (does anyone disagree with that?) he's got bonus spells as though his casting stat were 90... and with free echoing spell, all his spell slots come back an hour later. Plus, you know, the hyper speed plane thing. That lets him sleep and get new spells instantly. I don't know of any way to avoid this combination, and it's divine but still casts nearly all the arcane spells in existance (certainly all the ones that matter).

JaronK
#21

emy

Jun 05, 2009 13:24:07 		But... 1 foot per day to a max of 180 feet isn't a week -- it's half a year.

I'm confused.

(edit: of course, it only needs to get big enough that you can stand/sleep in it, but that's still 3-5 days.)
#22

dandu

Jun 05, 2009 14:57:36 		My Build:

Human

Beguiler5/Mindbender1/Rainbow Servant4/Contemplative1/Rainbow Servant6/Divine Oracle1/Sacred Exorcist1/Church Inquisitor1

Feats:

1:
Extend Spell
Heighten Spell

3:
Sculpt Spell

5:
Silent Spell

6:
Arcane Preparation

9:
Reach Spell

12:
Persist Spell

15:
Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell

18:
Extra Turning

Domains:
Air
Law
Good
Trickery (Grants Time Stop!)
Oracle
Inquisition

Inventory:
Bead of Karma
Ring of Arcane Might
Orange Ioun Stone
Wand of Celerity

All spells are cast as arcane spells.
#23

gsman

Jun 05, 2009 20:44:51
For the divine side, I'd go with Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Tenebrous Apostate 1, using the divine adaptation of Anima Mage. This gives you access to all spells from the Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, and Adept lists, plus a few more (and all the domain lists!). You also get endless metamagic (Tainted Sorcerer + Naberius) and no spell component costs (Tainted Sorcerer + Persistant Vigorous Circle). And you can cast all the overpowered shadow magic spells you want (Shadow Genesis, anyone?).

Be a gnome with two flaws, and the feat loadout would be Improved Binding, Heighten Spell, Spell Focus (Illusion), Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Residual Metamagic, Echoing Spell. Pump Con and Wis (might as well have a decent Int too). Gear is almost irrelevant, but you might as well aim for a high initiative, high wisdom, and caster level boosts. Your casting is based on your taint score, which can be as high as one less than twice your wisdom... note that there's no taint modifier, just the score, so if you had a wisdom of 21 and a taint of 40 you'd be casting as though your casting stat was 90. Wheeee!

Strategy? Contingent Celerity, going off whenever the arena fight starts (use whatever the signal is for the game starting to trigger it). Be in a persistant shapechange as a dire tortoise to ensure you have to go first. During the granted round, cast Time Stop, followed by a plane shift to the astral and then casting Shadow Genesis (make sure you take with you some stone for you to stand on, you need it for Earth Spell). Make your new plane Flowing Time 100,000,000,000, in addition to whatever other attributes you desire (positive energy dominant can be fun, so can the shadow trait that auto maximizes all shadow spells). Now you have millions of actions before your opponent even gets to roll initiative. Open up a Shadow Gate (it takes a first level spell slot for you, just like Genesis) to near your opponent and blow the heck out of them with something nasty (your choice). If that doesn't work, try again... you've got literally years before they can even act.

When you're done, go back and declare victory. It will all have happened so fast that no one will have seen you leave.

Okay, there's my strategy, and you can read it yourself and decide if you've got something that can beat that.

JaronK

Wow, I got nothin that can beat that, but my build sure gets alot of spells per day and such. Now then... can anyone beat this? He blew my build out of the water.
#24

jaronk

Jun 06, 2009 0:15:08
But... 1 foot per day to a max of 180 feet isn't a week -- it's half a year.

I'm confused.

(edit: of course, it only needs to get big enough that you can stand/sleep in it, but that's still 3-5 days.)

Wow, I've totally been misreading that this whole time (I thought it was 1 foot per hour or so). Okay, cast the Genesis ahead of time and just planeshift to it. Easily solved.

Anyway, that's a pretty stock standard Wizard method of winning in arenas... and you can see why the big casters win these things by so much. Of course, as an Archivist you can do all the Wizard tricks and more, thanks to the way Archivist spells work. I should also note that that character can get endless wishes (Planar Bind/Gate Efreetis) so gear is pretty darn trivial. You can also use the Love's Pain trick to ensure your opponent dies without even pulling up a gate to attack them through. Overkill, baby. And all before the enemy gets to roll initiative.

JaronK
#25

Senevri

Jun 06, 2009 4:34:06 		I think use of Genesis counts as "Pre-buffing".
Can you do it sans Genesis Time Trait cheese? I'm sure you can, since you go first... Except, how to guarantee your opponent isn't using same tactics?
#26

jaronk

Jun 06, 2009 12:54:09 		Genesis isn't a buff by any definition of the word. In the prefight buff round, you'll cast Extended Timestop, and get your buffs in order there (Including Shapechange and Vigorous Circle). In fact, you could plane shift to the astral, cast Genesis, and then watch it grow... remember, it grows by 1 foot per day, but the darn plane moves at 10,000,000 times normal speed, so you can create it in the prebuff round anyway. If your opponent uses the same tactics, then it's just a dice off to see who actually goes first... not much to be done about that. If they don't use Celerity/Dire Tortoise to ensure they go first, they're doomed.

Now, of course you can do it without genesis time cheese. You'll use SOMETHING people would call cheesy though. Genesis just ensures that you've got multiple shots to end the fight. Other available tricks include Time Stop/Shadow Delayed Blast Fireball nuking, Time Stop/Shadow Major Creation to hit them with gallons of Black Lotus Poison, rapid self cloning via Shadow Simaculum, etc.

JaronK