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Build sugguestions

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kranchan
Mar 27, 2008 23:18:34 Hi I'm wanting to make a mean caster for the upcoming campaign I'm playing in but I'm not really sure what I should go with. We'll probably start at level 1 but I want to plan my character to level 20 anyway. Base races only with any official classes from DnD, FR, Eberron, Dragon Mag, and/or Dungeon Mag non-gestalt. I have two ideas but I would like to see what you guys think/sugguest.

Idea 1

Cleric 3, Deathmaster 3 (Dragon Compendium vol 1 p29), True Necromancer 14 (Libris Mortis p51)

Pros - Casting Arcane & Divine @ 17th level by level 20, Able to cast arcane in light armor. Yay Halfweight Mithril Full Plate, Crappy undead minion, 20th level rebuke, +4 Necromantic Prowess bonus

Cons - Study and prayer for spells.

Idea 2

Warmage 5 (Complete Arcane p10), Favored Soul 5 (Complete Divine p6), Mystic Theurge 10 (DMG p192)

Pros - Casting Arcane & Divine @ 15th level by level 20, Able to cast arcane in light/med armor. Yay Halfweight Mithril Full Plate, can just cast. no study or prayer.

Cons - Lower caster level, no extra abilities from MT
#2
22_Over_7
Mar 27, 2008 23:35:15 Dual casters, in general, suck very hard. You need RAPID spellcasting advancement to make it work (i.e. Ur-Priest (Complete Divine) or Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane)).
#3
stickboy2323
Mar 27, 2008 23:41:56 If you're looking to play a dual caster look at the Arcane Heirophant. That way you get to be a wizard and a druid.
#4
kranchan
Mar 28, 2008 0:29:13
If you're looking to play a dual caster look at the Arcane Heirophant. That way you get to be a wizard and a druid.

So basically this build is awesome because it gets an uberfied familiar companion pet thing?
#5
aftercrescent
Mar 28, 2008 0:48:46 And abilities

Mystic theurge is a horrible weak prc. Not familiar with the first build, but the second one will not get 9th level spell. That's just bad
#6
kranchan
Mar 28, 2008 1:08:49
And abilities

Mystic theurge is a horrible weak prc. Not familiar with the first build, but the second one will not get 9th level spell. That's just bad

A friend recommended it to me but I don't think I'll do it because of its cons and I want to do a char with a necromantic focus.
#7
aftercrescent
Mar 28, 2008 1:15:16 Dread necromancer from heroes of horror, check the surrealdex for a handbook.
#8
kranchan
Mar 28, 2008 13:55:44
Dread necromancer from heroes of horror, check the surrealdex for a handbook.

I'm a little new here. Where can I find the surrealdex? Google doesn't help at all.
#9
littlefreak_dup
Mar 28, 2008 14:03:14 number two on my sign
#10
kranchan
Mar 28, 2008 14:32:49 So after being reminded of the existance of the Dread Necro class I have revamped my necro build.

Dread Necromancer 5, Favored Soul 1, True Necromancer 14. The feat Alternative Source Spell Dragon Mag 325 p61 must be taken.

Pros - Cast at 19th level arcane & 15th level divine with Necromancy spells cast at +4 levels, only 1 super important stat rather than 3 w/the previous build, more spells, no study or prayer for spells, can cast arcane in light armor, special stuff.

Cons - Slower spell progression, umm gtg. I'll list these later.
#11
aftercrescent
Mar 28, 2008 14:45:04 don't take warmage. It' a trap! Don't believe me? Ask logicninja!

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=963854
#12
magius_rerecros
Mar 28, 2008 15:11:25 No no no no no, you've got it all wrong. You NEVER want to be a True Necromancer. I STRONGLY recommend that you read through K's Revised Necromancer's Handbook and Tome of Necromancy before actually going through with any builds. The suggestions in there have never let me down when it comes to necromancy.

As for my previous statement of not being a True Necromancer, K sums that up rather nicely in the RNH.
You are not going to play a True Necromancer!
A lot of people love the True Necromancer, even though it’s a completely crippled class. Even a Mystic Theurge is better, and that’s saying quite a bit because that class is a dog with fleas. You’re 5 real caster levels behind the curve. If you just took Leadership, and then your cohort took Leadership, both of the cohorts would have better casting than you (being 2 levels behind and 4 levels behind respectively). You can provide the party better and more powerful Necromancy as a single classed Fighter that happens to have Leadership than you would if you were a “True” Necromancer.

Top Ten Reasons True Necromancers Are Bad

1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter.
2. You have to take the Death Domain as a Necromancer Cleric, which is a waste of a Domain Slot when you are trying to be good at Necromancy.
3. In the early levels, you postpone your access to Animate Dead by 4 levels.
4. At 8th level a True Necromancer can create, but not control Ghouls. A Cleric at that level can control but not create Ghouls. Guess which is better? At 11th level, the True Necromancer gets the ability to control Ghouls, and the Cleric gets the ability to create them, so there’s no point at which this is advantageous.
5. The only unique ability of the True Necromancer class is unimpressive. Desecrate is a great spell, but it’s also a second level spell.
6. True Necromancers eventually get a bonus to Rebuking – at 17th level they have a +1 bonus to their Rebuking level. But at 7th level they have a 3 level penalty to their Rebuking level. So at low levels when rebuking is good they can’t use it, and at high levels when Rebuking doesn’t matter they don’t care.
7. True Necromancers are always going to have underwhelming Save DCs. Between MAD and the fact that they are often forced to use spells that are 3 spell levels lower than what the single-classed casters can use, they’re going to be out enough Save DC that it shows. A lot.
8. As a True Necromancer you have all the disadvantages of both a Cleric (the gods can take away all your spellcasting at any time), and a Wizard (you have Arcane Spell Failure, preventing you from wearing good armor). Also, your BAB and HPs stink when compared to a Cleric.
9. Control pools from Animate Dead actually don’t accumulate between your two classes. It’ right in the spell, if you cast the spell it considers all undead you control from all castings of Animate Dead, not just your Arcane or just your Divine castings of the spell. Some people say differently, and some even quote CustServ, but when was the last time you won an argument with your DM using the line "some guy on a board said that CustServ told him....."?
10. There is almost no synergy between Cleric and Wizard Necromancy. Any synergy you desperately want to find could be replicated by just taking the Apprentice feat at first level and having some Use Magic Device. Get yourself a couple of Wizard Scrolls or something. It’s a better buy than setting 5 caster levels on fire. Smart cookies can even get the right spell effects off monsters for free, no less.

#13
kranchan
Mar 29, 2008 0:33:16 I'm sorry. Did I say Warmage? I meant Favored Soul. I totally wasn't paying attention when I posted that.

In arguement with the top 10 reasons list
1. Actually I would only be 1 caster level behind...with 15 caster levels of Favored Soul to back me up. I doubt my DM would allow this leadership trick.
2. The feat customize domain solves this. Dragon Mag 325 p61.
3. Animate dead only postponed by 1 level.
4. Where does it say clerics can cast control undead? According to the PHB it is a Sor/Wiz 7 spell only.
5. +4 effective caster level for rebuking, casting necromancy spells, or useing a spell-like ability that mimics a necromancy spell. That seems fairly special to me. Did I mention I get some goodies from Dread Necro?
6. At level 20 I will be rebuking as if I were a level 23 cleric.
7. My spells will be hard to save against because my main attribute for both my Dread Necromancer and Favored Soul classes is CHA so all I have to do is pump my CHA.
8. Lol not a cleric or wizard. I cast both my arcane and divine spells as if I were a Sorc. No preperation or prayer. Also I get more spells than a cleric and a wizard although my arcane spells are a bit restricted but that's ok with me. I don't plan on being the front lines of the battle if I can help it so having a smaller HD and only my Fort save will be worse than a cleric's
9. See Animate Undead Legion Dragon Mag 309 p50. Also Skeletons though less durable than zombies get more attacks a round and cost fewer control points.
10. Only losing 1 caster level which isn't that big of a deal since bonus spells will make up for it. Also I could take leadership and since CHA is my important stat I would have a pretty nice cohort among other minions and I could have a nice Transmuter with Transmute Any Object. Elite undead here I come!

Also unless you can show me what books the stuff in Revised Necromancer's Handbook and Tome of Necromancy come from my DM won't even consider them no matter how balanced they may be.
#14
aftercrescent
Mar 29, 2008 2:39:12 Favored soul's not good either. Go cleric or druid. Actually, I think dread necro/druid/arcane heirophant is not only decent but an insanely good role-playing opportunity.
#15
kranchan
Mar 29, 2008 11:21:59
Favored soul's not good either. Go cleric or druid. Actually, I think dread necro/druid/arcane heirophant is not only decent but an insanely good role-playing opportunity.

Other than the limited choice in spells known for the Favored Soul I can't see anything else that would be bad about it. I'll just have to chose my spells wisely if I'm restricted. I don't really want to go Cleric or Druid they have to chose and prep their spells in advance and Druids have that stupid no metal restriction. On the bright side they get an animal companion but since I would be taking only one level in a divine class it wouldn't get all of the nice bonuses that it would if I had more levels in Druid unless the bonuses accrue based on my caster level in Druid not class level. Also my DM kind of hates animal companions and he has intentionally killed off quite a few of other people's in the past.

I do like the Arcane Heriophant class but I think I'll save it for a gestalted character. I don't really want to lose out on the 9th level spells.
#16
vicen_korel
Mar 29, 2008 11:28:44 why not stack Arcane Heriophant with Mystic Thuerge?

Wizard 1 (precocious Apprintence)
Druid 1
Druid 2
Druid 3
Mystic thuerge *2 skills at rank 6, and 2nd lvl spells*
...
Arcane Heriophant 10

You have Druid 19 Wizard 17

9th levels galore.
#17
kranchan
Mar 29, 2008 12:08:29 Hmm this Precocious Apprentice feat is realvent to my interests.
#18
kranchan
Mar 29, 2008 13:34:00 I seem to have made a critical oversight. Neither Dread Necro or Favored Soul have access to domain spells unless I'm overlooking them. What all classes have access to domains?
#19
kranchan
Mar 30, 2008 1:54:19 Ok so what about using the Horned Harbinger (Faiths and Pantheons p197)?
#20
aftercrescent
Mar 30, 2008 1:58:02 Base class? Only clerics have domains. There are ways to get others, but not as a base class.

Besides having to prep spells, clerics and druids get access to a new spell level one level earlier than favored souls. If you just want a one level dip into a divine class, take cloistered cleric. It gets 3 domains, which is hot. Also, if you want some cool abilities, you could take the magic domain and go into dweomerkeeper after any other prestige class. Just throwing out thoughts now.
#21
kranchan
Mar 30, 2008 12:57:25 Any opinions on Dread Necro 8 / Horned Harbinger 10? Or the Uttercold Assault Necro Wizard build coupled with Horned Harbinger 10?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kranchan Mar 27, 2008 23:18:34	Hi I'm wanting to make a mean caster for the upcoming campaign I'm playing in but I'm not really sure what I should go with. We'll probably start at level 1 but I want to plan my character to level 20 anyway. Base races only with any official classes from DnD, FR, Eberron, Dragon Mag, and/or Dungeon Mag non-gestalt. I have two ideas but I would like to see what you guys think/sugguest. Idea 1 Cleric 3, Deathmaster 3 (Dragon Compendium vol 1 p29), True Necromancer 14 (Libris Mortis p51) Pros - Casting Arcane & Divine @ 17th level by level 20, Able to cast arcane in light armor. Yay Halfweight Mithril Full Plate, Crappy undead minion, 20th level rebuke, +4 Necromantic Prowess bonus Cons - Study and prayer for spells. Idea 2 Warmage 5 (Complete Arcane p10), Favored Soul 5 (Complete Divine p6), Mystic Theurge 10 (DMG p192) Pros - Casting Arcane & Divine @ 15th level by level 20, Able to cast arcane in light/med armor. Yay Halfweight Mithril Full Plate, can just cast. no study or prayer. Cons - Lower caster level, no extra abilities from MT
#2 22_Over_7 Mar 27, 2008 23:35:15	Dual casters, in general, suck very hard. You need RAPID spellcasting advancement to make it work (i.e. Ur-Priest (Complete Divine) or Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane)).
#3 stickboy2323 Mar 27, 2008 23:41:56	If you're looking to play a dual caster look at the Arcane Heirophant. That way you get to be a wizard and a druid.
#4 kranchan Mar 28, 2008 0:29:13	If you're looking to play a dual caster look at the Arcane Heirophant. That way you get to be a wizard and a druid. So basically this build is awesome because it gets an uberfied familiar companion pet thing?
#5 aftercrescent Mar 28, 2008 0:48:46	And abilities Mystic theurge is a horrible weak prc. Not familiar with the first build, but the second one will not get 9th level spell. That's just bad
#6 kranchan Mar 28, 2008 1:08:49	And abilities Mystic theurge is a horrible weak prc. Not familiar with the first build, but the second one will not get 9th level spell. That's just bad A friend recommended it to me but I don't think I'll do it because of its cons and I want to do a char with a necromantic focus.
#7 aftercrescent Mar 28, 2008 1:15:16	Dread necromancer from heroes of horror, check the surrealdex for a handbook.
#8 kranchan Mar 28, 2008 13:55:44	Dread necromancer from heroes of horror, check the surrealdex for a handbook. I'm a little new here. Where can I find the surrealdex? Google doesn't help at all.
#9 littlefreak_dup Mar 28, 2008 14:03:14	number two on my sign
#10 kranchan Mar 28, 2008 14:32:49	So after being reminded of the existance of the Dread Necro class I have revamped my necro build. Dread Necromancer 5, Favored Soul 1, True Necromancer 14. The feat Alternative Source Spell Dragon Mag 325 p61 must be taken. Pros - Cast at 19th level arcane & 15th level divine with Necromancy spells cast at +4 levels, only 1 super important stat rather than 3 w/the previous build, more spells, no study or prayer for spells, can cast arcane in light armor, special stuff. Cons - Slower spell progression, umm gtg. I'll list these later.
#11 aftercrescent Mar 28, 2008 14:45:04	don't take warmage. It' a trap! Don't believe me? Ask logicninja! http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=963854
#12 magius_rerecros Mar 28, 2008 15:11:25	No no no no no, you've got it all wrong. You NEVER want to be a True Necromancer. I STRONGLY recommend that you read through K's Revised Necromancer's Handbook and Tome of Necromancy before actually going through with any builds. The suggestions in there have never let me down when it comes to necromancy. As for my previous statement of not being a True Necromancer, K sums that up rather nicely in the RNH. You are not going to play a True Necromancer! A lot of people love the True Necromancer, even though it’s a completely crippled class. Even a Mystic Theurge is better, and that’s saying quite a bit because that class is a dog with fleas. You’re 5 real caster levels behind the curve. If you just took Leadership, and then your cohort took Leadership, both of the cohorts would have better casting than you (being 2 levels behind and 4 levels behind respectively). You can provide the party better and more powerful Necromancy as a single classed Fighter that happens to have Leadership than you would if you were a “True” Necromancer. Top Ten Reasons True Necromancers Are Bad 1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter. 2. You have to take the Death Domain as a Necromancer Cleric, which is a waste of a Domain Slot when you are trying to be good at Necromancy. 3. In the early levels, you postpone your access to Animate Dead by 4 levels. 4. At 8th level a True Necromancer can create, but not control Ghouls. A Cleric at that level can control but not create Ghouls. Guess which is better? At 11th level, the True Necromancer gets the ability to control Ghouls, and the Cleric gets the ability to create them, so there’s no point at which this is advantageous. 5. The only unique ability of the True Necromancer class is unimpressive. Desecrate is a great spell, but it’s also a second level spell. 6. True Necromancers eventually get a bonus to Rebuking – at 17th level they have a +1 bonus to their Rebuking level. But at 7th level they have a 3 level penalty to their Rebuking level. So at low levels when rebuking is good they can’t use it, and at high levels when Rebuking doesn’t matter they don’t care. 7. True Necromancers are always going to have underwhelming Save DCs. Between MAD and the fact that they are often forced to use spells that are 3 spell levels lower than what the single-classed casters can use, they’re going to be out enough Save DC that it shows. A lot. 8. As a True Necromancer you have all the disadvantages of both a Cleric (the gods can take away all your spellcasting at any time), and a Wizard (you have Arcane Spell Failure, preventing you from wearing good armor). Also, your BAB and HPs stink when compared to a Cleric. 9. Control pools from Animate Dead actually don’t accumulate between your two classes. It’ right in the spell, if you cast the spell it considers all undead you control from all castings of Animate Dead, not just your Arcane or just your Divine castings of the spell. Some people say differently, and some even quote CustServ, but when was the last time you won an argument with your DM using the line "some guy on a board said that CustServ told him....."? 10. There is almost no synergy between Cleric and Wizard Necromancy. Any synergy you desperately want to find could be replicated by just taking the Apprentice feat at first level and having some Use Magic Device. Get yourself a couple of Wizard Scrolls or something. It’s a better buy than setting 5 caster levels on fire. Smart cookies can even get the right spell effects off monsters for free, no less.
#13 kranchan Mar 29, 2008 0:33:16	I'm sorry. Did I say Warmage? I meant Favored Soul. I totally wasn't paying attention when I posted that. In arguement with the top 10 reasons list 1. Actually I would only be 1 caster level behind...with 15 caster levels of Favored Soul to back me up. I doubt my DM would allow this leadership trick. 2. The feat customize domain solves this. Dragon Mag 325 p61. 3. Animate dead only postponed by 1 level. 4. Where does it say clerics can cast control undead? According to the PHB it is a Sor/Wiz 7 spell only. 5. +4 effective caster level for rebuking, casting necromancy spells, or useing a spell-like ability that mimics a necromancy spell. That seems fairly special to me. Did I mention I get some goodies from Dread Necro? 6. At level 20 I will be rebuking as if I were a level 23 cleric. 7. My spells will be hard to save against because my main attribute for both my Dread Necromancer and Favored Soul classes is CHA so all I have to do is pump my CHA. 8. Lol not a cleric or wizard. I cast both my arcane and divine spells as if I were a Sorc. No preperation or prayer. Also I get more spells than a cleric and a wizard although my arcane spells are a bit restricted but that's ok with me. I don't plan on being the front lines of the battle if I can help it so having a smaller HD and only my Fort save will be worse than a cleric's 9. See Animate Undead Legion Dragon Mag 309 p50. Also Skeletons though less durable than zombies get more attacks a round and cost fewer control points. 10. Only losing 1 caster level which isn't that big of a deal since bonus spells will make up for it. Also I could take leadership and since CHA is my important stat I would have a pretty nice cohort among other minions and I could have a nice Transmuter with Transmute Any Object. Elite undead here I come! Also unless you can show me what books the stuff in Revised Necromancer's Handbook and Tome of Necromancy come from my DM won't even consider them no matter how balanced they may be.
#14 aftercrescent Mar 29, 2008 2:39:12	Favored soul's not good either. Go cleric or druid. Actually, I think dread necro/druid/arcane heirophant is not only decent but an insanely good role-playing opportunity.
#15 kranchan Mar 29, 2008 11:21:59	Favored soul's not good either. Go cleric or druid. Actually, I think dread necro/druid/arcane heirophant is not only decent but an insanely good role-playing opportunity. Other than the limited choice in spells known for the Favored Soul I can't see anything else that would be bad about it. I'll just have to chose my spells wisely if I'm restricted. I don't really want to go Cleric or Druid they have to chose and prep their spells in advance and Druids have that stupid no metal restriction. On the bright side they get an animal companion but since I would be taking only one level in a divine class it wouldn't get all of the nice bonuses that it would if I had more levels in Druid unless the bonuses accrue based on my caster level in Druid not class level. Also my DM kind of hates animal companions and he has intentionally killed off quite a few of other people's in the past. I do like the Arcane Heriophant class but I think I'll save it for a gestalted character. I don't really want to lose out on the 9th level spells.
#16 vicen_korel Mar 29, 2008 11:28:44	why not stack Arcane Heriophant with Mystic Thuerge? Wizard 1 (precocious Apprintence) Druid 1 Druid 2 Druid 3 Mystic thuerge 2 skills at rank 6, and 2nd lvl spells ... Arcane Heriophant 10 You have Druid 19 Wizard 17 9th levels galore.
#17 kranchan Mar 29, 2008 12:08:29	Hmm this Precocious Apprentice feat is realvent to my interests.
#18 kranchan Mar 29, 2008 13:34:00	I seem to have made a critical oversight. Neither Dread Necro or Favored Soul have access to domain spells unless I'm overlooking them. What all classes have access to domains?
#19 kranchan Mar 30, 2008 1:54:19	Ok so what about using the Horned Harbinger (Faiths and Pantheons p197)?
#20 aftercrescent Mar 30, 2008 1:58:02	Base class? Only clerics have domains. There are ways to get others, but not as a base class. Besides having to prep spells, clerics and druids get access to a new spell level one level earlier than favored souls. If you just want a one level dip into a divine class, take cloistered cleric. It gets 3 domains, which is hot. Also, if you want some cool abilities, you could take the magic domain and go into dweomerkeeper after any other prestige class. Just throwing out thoughts now.
#21 kranchan Mar 30, 2008 12:57:25	Any opinions on Dread Necro 8 / Horned Harbinger 10? Or the Uttercold Assault Necro Wizard build coupled with Horned Harbinger 10?