Building a challenging encounter... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 flawless_p Jul 12, 2009 18:31:54	So the game I DM for has taken an Up shoot in the power Department and I am a little sick of them walking all over monsters of their challenge rating. So here is the party and maybe we can toss around some ideas, I don't want them to die but I want them to limp away barely. The Party Human Druid 5/MoMF 8 (w/ Beholder Eye Rays Assume Supernatural Ability) Half-Black Dragon Human Fighter 6/Occult Slayer 5 Human Warmage8/GSA 5 Kobold Fighter 5/Dragonrider 5/Dragon Rider 3(From Dragonlance) w/Green Dragon Cohort Black Dragon 12 HD (No Class Levels) Half-Orc Dragon Shaman 9/Mountebank 4 Tiefling Rogue 10/ Dread Pirate 3
#2 mining_monk Jul 12, 2009 18:58:32	So the game I DM for has taken an Up shoot in the power Department and I am a little sick of them walking all over monsters of their challenge rating. So here is the party and maybe we can toss around some ideas, I don't want them to die but I want them to limp away barely. The Party Human Druid 5/MoMF 8 (w/ Beholder Eye Rays Assume Supernatural Ability) Half-Black Dragon Human Fighter 6/Occult Slayer 5 Human Warmage8/GSA 5 Kobold Fighter 5/Dragonrider 5/Dragon Rider 3(From Dragonlance) w/Green Dragon Cohort Black Dragon 12 HD (No Class Levels) Half-Orc Dragon Shaman 9/Mountebank 4 Tiefling Rogue 10/ Dread Pirate 3
#3 flawless_p Jul 12, 2009 19:47:28	Throw out a rival group of adventurers that are their opposites. Cliched maybe, but easy to balance. doesn't sound like a bad idea but what do you propose? I did that once already but the party had a much more powerful member at the time and in presently that other team would probably destroy them pretty easily.
#4 flawless_p Jul 12, 2009 19:54:00	Human Druid 5/MoMF 8 (w/ Beholder Eye Rays Assume Supernatural Ability) vs. A Doppleganger of some kind? Half-Black Dragon Human Fighter 6/Occult Slayer 5 vs. A Were Bear Dungeon Crasher Bullrush fighter? Human Warmage8/GSA 5 vs. Warforged Monk maybe? Kobold Fighter 5/Dragonrider 5/Dragon Rider 3(From Dragonlance) w/Green Dragon Cohort vs. A Dragon Slayer Ranger? I'm having the most trouble with an Idea on this one. Black Dragon 12 HD (No Class Levels) vs. Maybe another Dragon Slayer somehow related to the other ranger? Half-Orc Dragon Shaman 9/Mountebank 4 vs. I'm thinking a Justicar/Blood hound Tiefling Rogue 10/ Dread Pirate 3 vs. A Swashbuckler? i know it seems kinda cliche but this group seems like it would be fun to throw at my group any ideas on how to make this a bit more fun?
#5 dandu Jul 12, 2009 20:23:29	What about something that requires out of the box thinking to solve? Hilarious if your party has issues being creative. Tiefling Rogue 10/ Dread Pirate 3 vs. A Swashbuckler? vs a Ninja.
#6 flawless_p Jul 12, 2009 20:36:51	What about something that requires out of the box thinking to solve? Hilarious if your party has issues being creative. vs a Ninja. you are my hero I am going to make that ninja right now.
#7 dandu Jul 12, 2009 20:41:37	It shall be an Aasimar ninja with a perpetual halo.
#8 flawless_p Jul 12, 2009 20:49:02	It shall be an Aasimar ninja with a perpetual halo. Aasimar sure but what significance does the halo have to the joke?
#9 dandu Jul 12, 2009 20:53:24	A ninja with a permanent glowing ring of light around his head. I'm going to let that thought sink in for a moment.
#10 flawless_p Jul 12, 2009 20:58:34	A ninja with a permanent glowing ring of light around his head. I'm going to let that thought sink in for a moment. Wait I get it.....nope wait lost it... lol no i get it tho
#11 surreal Jul 12, 2009 22:55:46	An Illumian can accomplish that halo with no effort.
#12 kaszman Jul 12, 2009 23:28:51	Honestly I'm a fan of traps. really obscure ones that really make your party's trap-detector feel like its not a wasted skill point, but don't exclude the party. one of my favourites is from Grimtooths first book of traps. the wheel trap. basically, as soon as they step on the ramp, the wall rises, the wheels come down. the ramp is a pressure plate, search for traps to find it etc. to get past the trap they need to open the wall, so they need to activate it (on purpose or not). the obvious danger is the two wheels. one coming down the ramp, the other down the trench, the second is the barrels, which in this design are full of lets say acid. (you could make them full of oil and have flaming wheels). if they hide in the side rooms they have to make successful checks to get over the barrels....and the wheels smash the barrels shooting acid/flaming oil all over the side rooms. if they try to dodge past the wheels....well obvious danger vs reflex. now thats a pretty standard room trap. and the party can work its way around it, terms of an encounter, lets say you fill the barrels with acid, find out how many Acid elementals (medium) = the desired CR and put them in random barrels....thats my own personal flavour...tinker as appropriate. the only safe way past this trap really is to move all the barrels out of the way of the wheels. sit in the sidelines, let the reflex saver activate the trap and join up with the party as the wheels hit the wall and then they climb over them and leave. another comedy option is to have the wheels smash into the back wall and instead of acid elementals in the barrels have tons of dizzy orcs stumble out of the wheel or skeletons which would be immune to such dizzyness. (if they are smart enough to move the barrels maybe) you can counter this. by having the wall the wheels hit as another pressure plate that activates something to smash the barrels/adventurers sitting on the barrels....although I am known as a mean ****** when it comes to my parties and room traps...this was the first room in my vampires tower a few weeks ago. terms of a challenging encounter....well theres a big hard trap which leads to lots of monsters.....if it all goes wrong you could in theory...be hit by a wheel....caked in acid....hit by a monster before you get to make an attack. if they are the sort who run in shouting this will get them everytime, if they are thinkers this might be fun...
#13 mining_monk Jul 13, 2009 3:17:57	Have the opposing party be in cahoots with a Xorvintal (Great Game thingy) dragon, who is the opposite of the black dragon, otherwise as you said. oh, and against the MoMF, a beholder. Make it the opposite gender and... frisky. Scary, scary stuff.
#14 Senevri Jul 13, 2009 4:49:13	Take a look at the CR 10 traps. 16 to 18 dice auto-hit no save. Fun. Also, I have similar considerations, although my party isn't probably quite as powerful, but are of a similar level. Their next major opponent are: Vampire Ninjas (no actual ninja levels were harmed in making.) In a Fog Cloud. (natural, non-magical.) When vampires have scent and blindsight. A rolling boulder trap can work wonders--- if the PCs have first traversed a few thousand feet in a tunnel. I had some heavier orcs I used, but they died quite fast. Still, they did hit and cause damage, so just more of 'em next time.
#15 flawless_p Jul 14, 2009 5:06:44	ninja Aasamir Ninja 13 Str 16 +3 Dex 20 +5 Con 14 +2 Int 16 +3 Wis 20 +5 Cha 16 +3 AC +2 F R W +6 +13 +9 10 + 5 + 5 + 2 AC 22 +2 Keen Blurstrike Ninja-to +13/+9 1d6+5 17-20 x2 (Sudden Strike +7d6) Ceramic Eggs +14/+9 1d2+poison 2 blowgun needles w Colossal Centipede poison DC 36 2d6 Dex 1 Dose of Colossal Scorpion Venom DC 54 2d8 Str 4 Ceramic Eggs with Eyeblast Poison DC 22 Poision for Blindness Ring of Silence 3/day 1st Quick Draw 3rd Combat Reflexes 6th Master of Poisons 9th Venomous Strike 12th Disemboweling Strike
#16 flawless_p Jul 14, 2009 19:17:36	how about this? Dwarven Werebear Dungeon Crasher Fighter 6d10 and 8d8 HP 146 Fighter 6/Brown Bear 6/Warshaper 2 Str 16 +3 \|Str 40 +15 Dex 14 +2 \|Dex 16 +3 Con 20 +5 \|Con 32 +11 Int 15 +2 Wis 13 +1 Cha 16 +3 Saves Hybrid 19 6 6 Normal 13 5 6 Normal 18 Hybrid 21 Fighter 1. Power Attack (1st), Improved Bull Rush (Fighter 1). Fighter 2. Dungeon Crasher class feature. Fighter 3. Knockback (3rd). Fighter 4. Combat Reflexes (Fighter 4). Fighter 5. Fighter 6. Multiattack 6th, Shock Trooper (Fighter 6). Bear Hit Dice 6 Endurance Run and Track(Iron Will) 10/5 13/8(23/18) 1 Claw +22 1d8+15 2 Claws +20 1d8+15 and 1 Bite 1d6+7 Bull Rush Results 4+4+15+Roll 5 ft. + 5 feet for ever 5 point the check exceedes the defenders
#17 croxley_dup Jul 14, 2009 19:26:51	Wouldn't you want to drop the two Warshaper Levels for 2 more Dungeoncrasher levels and get Up against the Walls for 8d6+39 damage? For the Ninja, Arterial Strike with Wounding Weapon. Go Ethereal and Strike as Ethereal - they have to have some way of seeing you or all attacks are Sudden Strikes. 2 Bleeding Wounds per hit, culmulative. :D
#18 flawless_p Jul 14, 2009 19:44:19	Wouldn't you want to drop the two Warshaper Levels for 2 more Dungeoncrasher levels and get Up against the Walls for 8d6+39 damage? For the Ninja, Arterial Strike with Wounding Weapon. Go Ethereal and Strike as Ethereal - they have to have some way of seeing you or all attacks are Sudden Strikes. 2 Bleeding Wounds per hit, culmulative. :D I was under the impression that I am getting the dungeon crasher 8d6 already since it goes up at fighter lvl 6
#19 croxley_dup Jul 14, 2009 19:49:51	Sorry, my mistake. Don't know where I was coming from there.. Long day it has been..
#20 flawless_p Jul 14, 2009 19:52:19	Sorry, my mistake. Don't know where I was coming from there.. Long day it has been.. No problem I think the Werebear is fairly optimized but I am very open to suggestions.
#21 croxley_dup Jul 14, 2009 21:33:09	Vs the Dragon (whom I'm guessing is Medium Sized?) Half-Ogre (LA +2 bought off) Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Ranger(Favoured Enemy Dragon) 1/ Barbarian (Ordered Chaos Feat here) 1/ Drunken Master 7 Sample Stats: 24, 13, 16, 13, 14, 6 (Can drink down to 1 Int and 2 Wis for +6 to Str and Con, and Rage for more) Drunk/Rage Stats 40, 13, 32, 1, 2, 6 Feats: Improved Feint, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Harpoon), Great Fortitude, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, Track, Ordered Chaos, 2 Normal Feats and 1 Bonus Fighter Feat Free (Maybe Endurance/Steadfast Determination?) Drunken Saves: +28, +11, +3 Harpoon the Dragon if he tries to fly, pull him in and Flurry/Grapple him with the +33 Grapple Check you have. Use him to beat up other PC's or generally beat him down. Pin him (stop him from opening his mouth) to negate his Breath Weapon. If he gets away to do a flyby attack pick up a 40-50 ft pole (Greater Improvised Weapons) and hit him (AoO) if he comes in range (Alternatively, which is a character of mine, swap out the last two levels of Drunken Master for two levels of Justicar to get; Bring ’em back alive, Nonlethal strike, Improved grapple, Crippling Strike) Tweak as you will :D
#22 flawless_p Jul 14, 2009 22:11:24	I like the build but do you know of any sub races as the only Half Ogre I can find is from Dragonlance. I don't have many Dragon Magazine issues other than the compendium.
#23 croxley_dup Jul 14, 2009 22:26:03	Half Ogre is in Savage Species You could use Half Giant? from Expanded Psionics? Or even a Goliath for Powerful Build would work Another feat I would recommend is Standstill (Expanded Psionics) to stop any flyby attacks :D
#24 flawless_p Jul 14, 2009 22:33:59	Found it thanks im gonna check this stuff out and come up with a finalized build. I'm gonna make a combo for this guy to control the dragons while the Ranger tags them up with his arrows.
#25 croxley_dup Jul 14, 2009 22:39:27	Sounding good. I had an Idea for your Ranger too.. Human with Shadow Template Ranger 1/ Fighter 2/ Ranger 2/ Horizon Walker 2/ Shadowdancer 2/ Horizon Walker 4 (with Planar Terrain Mastery) Feats (with 2 flaws): Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Endurance, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run, Track, Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow), Able Sniper, Woodland Archer, Darkstalker Get a Bow with Splitting and Exit Wound He can Snipe really well and has great mobility with Planar terrain mastery. You could max out Ride and Dimension Door to the back of one of the dragons and attack from there too
#26 flawless_p Jul 14, 2009 22:59:40	Half Ogre Monk 2/Fighter 2/Ranger 1/Barbarian 1/Drunken Master 7 Str 24 7 Dex 16 3 Con 20 5 Int 14 2 Wis 16 3 Cha 13 1 10+3+3+1+4 AC 22 1st: Dodge 3rd:Great Fortitude 6th:Ordered Chaos 9th: Dive for Cover (Go Prone to retry a failed reflex save. To offset this: standing up from prone as a free action without attacks of oppertunity = DC 35 means rolling a 2 is a success.) 12th:Brutal Throw Monk: Improved Unarmed Strike Stunning Fist Combat Reflexes Evasion Fighter 1:Exotic Weapon Prof(Harpoon) 2: Ranger Track Favored Enemy (Dragons) Barbarian Rage Movement Bonus +10ft. Drunken Master Drink Like A demon Improvised Weapons (Improved,Greater) 1d8 additional damage Stagger DC 15 (Max Ranks 15 + 3 + Item for +15) Swaying Waist AC Bonus +1
#27 croxley_dup Jul 14, 2009 23:31:56	Back On Your Feet Skill Trick from Complete Scoundrel will do what Dive for Cover does without using up a Feat? Brutal Throw is a great idea
#28 flawless_p Jul 14, 2009 23:41:32	Back On Your Feet Skill Trick from Complete Scoundrel will do what Dive for Cover does without using up a Feat? Brutal Throw is a great idea Dive for Cover actually allows you to make a second Reflex save in the event that you fail the initial one but you end up prone, The notation is just a reminder of how this is going to be offset. I.E. Free Stand Epic use of Tumble
#29 siranui Jul 15, 2009 5:10:07	There's a bit of a dragon theme in the party, so I'd break open the various dragon books and throw them against an assorted bunch of hardened and specialised dragon slayers. Are the party evil? If so, include a paladin or two! Is the MoMF a bit of a one-trick pony who always resorts to beholder? If so, then I'd make a point of somehow depriving him of his 'trick' somehow, by hook or by crook: It doesn't have to be 'fair'. Maybe an ancient palace they are exploring has very ancient spells designed to stop ANY form of shapeshifting working within its limits, to prevent doppelganger or any other infiltration.
#30 kirak Jul 15, 2009 17:04:36	I've found that the best way to make an encounter challenging is take a regular encounter and add in something that the players have no control over. Since your party is mostly dragons, I would recommend a group of rangers, with Favored Enemy: Dragon. Through in a couple of support people, maybe a paladin or some other Good aligned caster and you have a decent encounter. I'd then stick them in a room, large enough for decent combat, but with all the material made of mirror, so they can't pinpoint where anyone is. That or have all players look the same as the NPCs so they have to actually think during the fight. Then again there is always the trap that will kill them given enough time.
#31 SwordDisciple Jul 15, 2009 20:55:57	Need help building a character Flawless?
#32 flawless_p Jul 15, 2009 22:36:12	Need help building a character Flawless? As a matter of fact I have been looking into something castery to challenge a warmage... any thoughts?
#33 SwordDisciple Jul 15, 2009 23:24:59	Do you want to nerf him or outblast him? To nerf him, Doc Rock's War Weaver works well at this sort of thing. I can also whip up a Sorceror who will essentially prevent him from casting spells I can also provide an outblast him character but I think this might be bad as you don't with to kill all of them do you?
#34 flawless_p Jul 16, 2009 1:11:10	Do you want to nerf him or outblast him? To nerf him, Doc Rock's War Weaver works well at this sort of thing. I can also whip up a Sorceror who will essentially prevent him from casting spells I can also provide an outblast him character but I think this might be bad as you don't with to kill all of them do you? How about we aim for a not Out Blasting but instead Matching his blasting. His favorite spell is Greater Fire Burst. So this is the only guy I acutally want to match with someone mostly like him....I'm thinking Ice Elemental Savant.
#35 SwordDisciple Jul 16, 2009 5:18:08	Ok, been pondering this.. I think an Elemental Savant is a good idea too How about: Fire Mephling (Planar Handbook) with Draconic Creature template Sorceror 5/ Elemental (Fire) Savant 4/ Argent Savant 4 Stats with 32 Pt Buy + levels Str: 10 Dex: 10 Con: 18 Int: 12 Wis: 8 Cha: 25 You get: 6/ 8/ 8/ 8/ 7 /6 /4 level spells You lose 1 caster level but Elemental Savant gives Elemental specialty, Immunity to sleep, Energy penetration +2, Resistance to Fire 10; and Argent Savant gives Force specialization, Force armor, Extended force, Ablate force Feats: Blistering Spell, Empower Spell, Energy Admixture - Fire, Energy Substitution - Fire, Practical Metamagic - Energy Admixture This will give you the power to match his character if you want and will reduce what damage he can do to you. Spells I'll leave to you but an example of this is Magic Missile as a 5th Level Spell giving 5 missiles doing 5d4+10 Force and 5d4+7 Fire damage (average of 37, minimum of 27, maximum of 57) with the option of Empowering as well. You could throw Warmage in there instead of Sorceror if you want to get Warmage Edge.
#36 siranui Jul 16, 2009 5:40:06	If the caster tends to blast away from the start, I'd recommend spell reflection!
#37 SwordDisciple Jul 16, 2009 16:27:51	So to summarise thus far.. Human Druid 5/MoMF 8 (w/ Beholder Eye Rays Assume Supernatural Ability) vs. ? Half-Black Dragon Human Fighter 6/Occult Slayer 5 vs. The Were Bear Dungeon Crasher Human Warmage8/GSA 5 vs. The Sorceror/Ardent Kobold Fighter 5/Dragonrider 5/Dragon Rider 3(From Dragonlance) w/Green Dragon Cohort vs The Archer? Black Dragon 12 HD (No Class Levels) vs. The Half-Ogre Drunken Master? Half-Orc Dragon Shaman 9/Mountebank 4 vs ? Tiefling Rogue 10/ Dread Pirate 3 vs. The Ninja Question on the Mountebank Flawless, what colour Dragon does he follow? I have an idea here. Caster Level for the Eye Rays? A great way to nerf the Eye Rays would use something that gives Antimagic. Su's don't work in them so he would be his normal human self. Or you could use something that has a high spell resistance. Again I have an idea to combat him which I'll post soon
#38 flawless_p Jul 16, 2009 16:56:10	So to summarise thus far.. Human Druid 5/MoMF 8 (w/ Beholder Eye Rays Assume Supernatural Ability) vs. ? Half-Black Dragon Human Fighter 6/Occult Slayer 5 vs. The Were Bear Dungeon Crasher Human Warmage8/GSA 5 vs. The Sorceror/Ardent Kobold Fighter 5/Dragonrider 5/Dragon Rider 3(From Dragonlance) w/Green Dragon Cohort vs The Archer? Black Dragon 12 HD (No Class Levels) vs. The Half-Ogre Drunken Master? Half-Orc Dragon Shaman 9/Mountebank 4 vs ? Tiefling Rogue 10/ Dread Pirate 3 vs. The Ninja Question on the Mountebank Flawless, what colour Dragon does he follow? I have an idea here. And a great way to nerf the Eye Rays would use something that gives Antimagic. Su's don't work in them so he would be his normal human self. Or you could use something that has a high spell resistance. Again I have an idea which I'll post soon Yeah I have some old characters that i'm going to throw in to fill the blanks as the game is tonight, but if you guys want here is a bit of the build I made for the Half Orc Mountebank. Dwarf Ranger 4/Bloodhound 5/Justicar 5 Dwarf Ranger 4/Bloodhound 5/Justicar 5 Str 18 +4 Dex 17 +3 COn 20 +5 Int 16 +3 Wis 14 +2 Cha 16 +3 Saves +14 +12 +11 BAB +14/+9/+4 18/12/8 Net and Trident +16-16/+10-10/+6-6 Then 22/17/12 +2 Merciful Trident 1d8+6 +3d6 and 3 Str 1rst Skill Focus (Gather Information) 3rd: Weapon Focus Trident 6th: Exotic Weapon Prof Net 9th: Net and Trident Style 12th: Quick Draw Track Ranger Endurance Ranger Mark (2) Combat Style Two Weapon Fighting Favored Enemy Humanoids(Humans) Bonus Nonlethal Damage:+2d6 and 3 Str Hide 17 Listen 1 Move Silently 17 Spot 17 Survival 17 Use Rope 3 Bluff 15 Disguise 17 Gather Information 15 Intimidate 5 Sense Motive 17
#39 SwordDisciple Jul 16, 2009 17:34:08	My idea for your MOMF is Nerra - Kalareem (LA+6 Fiend Folio) Outsider 3/ Fighter 2/ StreetFighter 2 Stats with 32 Pt Buy + levels Str: 16 Dex: 20 Con: 22 Int: 13 Wis: 12 Cha: 10 Initiative: +10 HP:82 AC: 20 without Armour Full Attack: Shard Longsword +10/+5 Shard Dagger +10/+5 Damage: Shard Longsword 1d8+5 Shard Dagger 1d4+3 off-hand plus culmulative wounding on each blow Special Attacks: Shard spray, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: Cold resistance 10, electricity resistance 10, fire resistance 10, mirror jump, outsider traits, reflective spell resistance 17, Immune to Gaze attacks, sonic vulnerability Feats: Bonus Exotic Weapon Proficiency (shard longsword & shard dagger), Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative From Streetfighter: Stand Tough Shard Spray (Su): 3/day, 30 ft cone, 1d4/lvl max 5d4 + 2 bleeding wounds. Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—mirror image. Combat: Shard him for 2 wounds (or get the anti-magic dust and dust him) then move in. He'll take 2 damage on his turn and will probably bring his eyes to play and hopefully get hit by a few rays himself. If all attacks hit on a full attack he'll get another 4 wounds which means he'll be bleeding for 6 hp this round. And thus forth until the Kalareem is finished - I don't think he'll be a huge upset but it will certainly shock him to have his rays reflected back at him.
#40 flawless_p Jul 17, 2009 2:51:30	As it turns out the Dugeon Crasher Fighter was a bit more than they could handle killed 1 put another into the negatives and the beholder died too.
#41 siranui Jul 17, 2009 3:02:55	Sounds about right: You wanted to give them a smack-down, and they got it!
#42 flawless_p Jul 17, 2009 3:35:43	Sounds about right: You wanted to give them a smack-down, and they got it! Yeah although I teamed him with a mage who can cast wall of force. so lots of damage was done...
#43 SwordDisciple Jul 17, 2009 7:29:06	Yeah although I teamed him with a mage who can cast wall of force. so lots of damage was done... Good man But seriously, it was probably a good exercise on "The DM can do what you can do, only better". And at the end of the session, the deaths aren't anything that a good Raise Dead or Resurrection can't fix :D
#44 flawless_p Jul 17, 2009 14:58:11	Good man But seriously, it was probably a good exercise on "The DM can do what you can do, only better". And at the end of the session, the deaths aren't anything that a good Raise Dead or Resurrection can't fix :D Funniest thing about it was The Ninja blinded the warmage and in response to Panic the Warmage started using greater fire burst, one failed reflex save later and the Beholder was killed via friendly fire.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

flawless_p

Jul 12, 2009 18:31:54

So the game I DM for has taken an Up shoot in the power Department and I am a little sick of them walking all over monsters of their challenge rating.
So here is the party and maybe we can toss around some ideas, I don't want them to die but I want them to limp away barely.

The Party

Human Druid 5/MoMF 8 (w/ Beholder Eye Rays Assume Supernatural Ability)

Half-Black Dragon Human Fighter 6/Occult Slayer 5

Human Warmage8/GSA 5

Kobold Fighter 5/Dragonrider 5/Dragon Rider 3(From Dragonlance)
w/Green Dragon Cohort

Black Dragon 12 HD (No Class Levels)

Half-Orc Dragon Shaman 9/Mountebank 4

Tiefling Rogue 10/ Dread Pirate 3

mining_monk

Jul 12, 2009 18:58:32

So the game I DM for has taken an Up shoot in the power Department and I am a little sick of them walking all over monsters of their challenge rating.
So here is the party and maybe we can toss around some ideas, I don't want them to die but I want them to limp away barely.
The Party

Human Druid 5/MoMF 8 (w/ Beholder Eye Rays Assume Supernatural Ability)

Half-Black Dragon Human Fighter 6/Occult Slayer 5

Human Warmage8/GSA 5

Kobold Fighter 5/Dragonrider 5/Dragon Rider 3(From Dragonlance)
w/Green Dragon Cohort

Black Dragon 12 HD (No Class Levels)

Half-Orc Dragon Shaman 9/Mountebank 4

Tiefling Rogue 10/ Dread Pirate 3

flawless_p

Jul 12, 2009 19:47:28

Throw out a rival group of adventurers that are their opposites. Cliched maybe, but easy to balance.

doesn't sound like a bad idea but what do you propose? I did that once already but the party had a much more powerful member at the time and in presently that other team would probably destroy them pretty easily.

flawless_p

Jul 12, 2009 19:54:00

Human Druid 5/MoMF 8 (w/ Beholder Eye Rays Assume Supernatural Ability) vs. A Doppleganger of some kind?

Half-Black Dragon Human Fighter 6/Occult Slayer 5 vs. A Were Bear Dungeon Crasher Bullrush fighter?

Human Warmage8/GSA 5 vs. Warforged Monk maybe?

Kobold Fighter 5/Dragonrider 5/Dragon Rider 3(From Dragonlance)
w/Green Dragon Cohort vs. A Dragon Slayer Ranger? I'm having the most trouble with an Idea on this one.

Black Dragon 12 HD (No Class Levels) vs. Maybe another Dragon Slayer somehow related to the other ranger?

Half-Orc Dragon Shaman 9/Mountebank 4 vs. I'm thinking a Justicar/Blood hound

Tiefling Rogue 10/ Dread Pirate 3 vs. A Swashbuckler?

i know it seems kinda cliche but this group seems like it would be fun to throw at my group any ideas on how to make this a bit more fun?

dandu

Jul 12, 2009 20:23:29

What about something that requires out of the box thinking to solve? Hilarious if your party has issues being creative.

Tiefling Rogue 10/ Dread Pirate 3 vs. A Swashbuckler?

vs a Ninja.

flawless_p

Jul 12, 2009 20:36:51

What about something that requires out of the box thinking to solve? Hilarious if your party has issues being creative.

vs a Ninja.

you are my hero I am going to make that ninja right now.

dandu

Jul 12, 2009 20:41:37

It shall be an Aasimar ninja with a perpetual halo.

flawless_p

Jul 12, 2009 20:49:02

It shall be an Aasimar ninja with a perpetual halo.

Aasimar sure but what significance does the halo have to the joke?

dandu

Jul 12, 2009 20:53:24

A ninja with a permanent glowing ring of light around his head. I'm going to let that thought sink in for a moment.

#10

flawless_p

Jul 12, 2009 20:58:34

A ninja with a permanent glowing ring of light around his head. I'm going to let that thought sink in for a moment.

Wait I get it.....nope wait lost it...

lol
no i get it tho

#11

surreal

Jul 12, 2009 22:55:46

An Illumian can accomplish that halo with no effort.

#12

kaszman

Jul 12, 2009 23:28:51

Honestly I'm a fan of traps. really obscure ones that really make your party's trap-detector feel like its not a wasted skill point, but don't exclude the party.

one of my favourites is from Grimtooths first book of traps. the wheel trap.

IMAGE(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1958/wheeltrap.png)

IMAGE(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1958/wheeltrap.png)

basically, as soon as they step on the ramp, the wall rises, the wheels come down. the ramp is a pressure plate, search for traps to find it etc.
to get past the trap they need to open the wall, so they need to activate it (on purpose or not).

the obvious danger is the two wheels. one coming down the ramp, the other down the trench, the second is the barrels, which in this design are full of lets say acid. (you could make them full of oil and have flaming wheels). if they hide in the side rooms they have to make successful checks to get over the barrels....and the wheels smash the barrels shooting acid/flaming oil all over the side rooms. if they try to dodge past the wheels....well obvious danger vs reflex.

now thats a pretty standard room trap. and the party can work its way around it, terms of an encounter, lets say you fill the barrels with acid, find out how many Acid elementals (medium) = the desired CR and put them in random barrels....thats my own personal flavour...tinker as appropriate.

the only safe way past this trap really is to move all the barrels out of the way of the wheels. sit in the sidelines, let the reflex saver activate the trap and join up with the party as the wheels hit the wall and then they climb over them and leave. another comedy option is to have the wheels smash into the back wall and instead of acid elementals in the barrels have tons of dizzy orcs stumble out of the wheel or skeletons which would be immune to such dizzyness. (if they are smart enough to move the barrels maybe)

you can counter this. by having the wall the wheels hit as another pressure plate that activates something to smash the barrels/adventurers sitting on the barrels....although I am known as a mean ****** when it comes to my parties and room traps...this was the first room in my vampires tower a few weeks ago.

terms of a challenging encounter....well theres a big hard trap which leads to lots of monsters.....if it all goes wrong you could in theory...be hit by a wheel....caked in acid....hit by a monster before you get to make an attack.

if they are the sort who run in shouting this will get them everytime, if they are thinkers this might be fun...

#13

mining_monk

Jul 13, 2009 3:17:57

Have the opposing party be in cahoots with a Xorvintal (Great Game thingy) dragon, who is the opposite of the black dragon, otherwise as you said.

oh, and against the MoMF, a beholder. Make it the opposite gender and... frisky. Scary, scary stuff.

#14

Senevri

Jul 13, 2009 4:49:13

Take a look at the CR 10 traps. 16 to 18 dice auto-hit no save. Fun.

Also, I have similar considerations, although my party isn't probably quite as powerful, but are of a similar level.

Their next major opponent are:

Vampire Ninjas (no actual ninja levels were harmed in making.)
In a Fog Cloud. (natural, non-magical.)
When vampires have scent and blindsight.

A rolling boulder trap can work wonders--- if the PCs have first traversed a few thousand feet in a tunnel.

I had some heavier orcs I used, but they died quite fast. Still, they did hit and cause damage, so just more of 'em next time.

#15

flawless_p

Jul 14, 2009 5:06:44

ninja

Aasamir Ninja 13
Str 16 +3
Dex 20 +5
Con 14 +2
Int 16 +3
Wis 20 +5
Cha 16 +3

AC +2

F R W
+6 +13 +9

10 + 5 + 5 + 2
AC 22

+2 Keen Blurstrike Ninja-to +13/+9 1d6+5 17-20 x2 (Sudden Strike +7d6)
Ceramic Eggs +14/+9 1d2+poison

2 blowgun needles w Colossal Centipede poison DC 36 2d6 Dex
1 Dose of Colossal Scorpion Venom DC 54 2d8 Str
4 Ceramic Eggs with Eyeblast Poison DC 22 Poision for Blindness
Ring of Silence 3/day

1st Quick Draw
3rd Combat Reflexes
6th Master of Poisons
9th Venomous Strike
12th Disemboweling Strike

#16

flawless_p

Jul 14, 2009 19:17:36

how about this?

Dwarven Werebear Dungeon Crasher Fighter
6d10 and 8d8 HP 146
Fighter 6/Brown Bear 6/Warshaper 2
Str 16 +3 |Str 40 +15
Dex 14 +2 |Dex 16 +3
Con 20 +5 |Con 32 +11
Int 15 +2
Wis 13 +1
Cha 16 +3

Saves

Hybrid
19 6 6

Normal
13 5 6

Normal
18
Hybrid
21

Fighter 1. Power Attack (1st), Improved Bull Rush (Fighter 1).
Fighter 2. Dungeon Crasher class feature.
Fighter 3. Knockback (3rd).
Fighter 4. Combat Reflexes (Fighter 4).
Fighter 5.
Fighter 6. Multiattack 6th, Shock Trooper (Fighter 6).
Bear Hit Dice 6 Endurance Run and Track(Iron Will)

10/5

13/8(23/18)
1 Claw +22 1d8+15
2 Claws +20 1d8+15 and 1 Bite 1d6+7
Bull Rush Results
4+4+15+Roll
5 ft. + 5 feet for ever 5 point the check exceedes the defenders

#17

croxley_dup

Jul 14, 2009 19:26:51

Wouldn't you want to drop the two Warshaper Levels for 2 more Dungeoncrasher levels and get Up against the Walls for 8d6+39 damage?

For the Ninja, Arterial Strike with Wounding Weapon. Go Ethereal and Strike as Ethereal - they have to have some way of seeing you or all attacks are Sudden Strikes. 2 Bleeding Wounds per hit, culmulative.

:D

#18

flawless_p

Jul 14, 2009 19:44:19

Wouldn't you want to drop the two Warshaper Levels for 2 more Dungeoncrasher levels and get Up against the Walls for 8d6+39 damage?

For the Ninja, Arterial Strike with Wounding Weapon. Go Ethereal and Strike as Ethereal - they have to have some way of seeing you or all attacks are Sudden Strikes. 2 Bleeding Wounds per hit, culmulative.

:D

I was under the impression that I am getting the dungeon crasher 8d6 already since it goes up at fighter lvl 6

#19

croxley_dup

Jul 14, 2009 19:49:51

Sorry, my mistake. Don't know where I was coming from there.. Long day it has been..

#20

flawless_p

Jul 14, 2009 19:52:19

Sorry, my mistake. Don't know where I was coming from there.. Long day it has been..

No problem I think the Werebear is fairly optimized but I am very open to suggestions.

#21

croxley_dup

Jul 14, 2009 21:33:09

Vs the Dragon (whom I'm guessing is Medium Sized?)

Half-Ogre (LA +2 bought off)
Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Ranger(Favoured Enemy Dragon) 1/ Barbarian (Ordered Chaos Feat here) 1/ Drunken Master 7

Sample Stats: 24, 13, 16, 13, 14, 6
(Can drink down to 1 Int and 2 Wis for +6 to Str and Con, and Rage for more)
Drunk/Rage Stats 40, 13, 32, 1, 2, 6

Feats:
Improved Feint, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Harpoon), Great Fortitude, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, Track, Ordered Chaos,
2 Normal Feats and 1 Bonus Fighter Feat Free (Maybe Endurance/Steadfast Determination?)

Drunken Saves:
+28, +11, +3

Harpoon the Dragon if he tries to fly, pull him in and Flurry/Grapple him with the +33 Grapple Check you have. Use him to beat up other PC's or generally beat him down. Pin him (stop him from opening his mouth) to negate his Breath Weapon. If he gets away to do a flyby attack pick up a 40-50 ft pole (Greater Improvised Weapons) and hit him (AoO) if he comes in range

(Alternatively, which is a character of mine, swap out the last two levels of Drunken Master for two levels of Justicar to get; Bring ’em back alive, Nonlethal strike, Improved grapple, Crippling Strike)

Tweak as you will

:D

#22

flawless_p

Jul 14, 2009 22:11:24

I like the build but do you know of any sub races as the only Half Ogre I can find is from Dragonlance. I don't have many Dragon Magazine issues other than the compendium.

#23

croxley_dup

Jul 14, 2009 22:26:03

Half Ogre is in Savage Species

You could use Half Giant? from Expanded Psionics? Or even a Goliath for Powerful Build would work

Another feat I would recommend is Standstill (Expanded Psionics) to stop any flyby attacks

:D

#24

flawless_p

Jul 14, 2009 22:33:59

Found it thanks im gonna check this stuff out and come up with a finalized build. I'm gonna make a combo for this guy to control the dragons while the Ranger tags them up with his arrows.

#25

croxley_dup

Jul 14, 2009 22:39:27

Sounding good.

I had an Idea for your Ranger too..

Human with Shadow Template
Ranger 1/ Fighter 2/ Ranger 2/ Horizon Walker 2/ Shadowdancer 2/ Horizon Walker 4 (with Planar Terrain Mastery)

Feats (with 2 flaws):
Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Endurance, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run, Track, Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow), Able Sniper, Woodland Archer, Darkstalker

Get a Bow with Splitting and Exit Wound

He can Snipe really well and has great mobility with Planar terrain mastery. You could max out Ride and Dimension Door to the back of one of the dragons and attack from there too

#26

flawless_p

Jul 14, 2009 22:59:40

Half Ogre
Monk 2/Fighter 2/Ranger 1/Barbarian 1/Drunken Master 7

Str 24 7
Dex 16 3
Con 20 5
Int 14 2
Wis 16 3
Cha 13 1

10+3+3+1+4
AC 22

1st: Dodge
3rd:Great Fortitude
6th:Ordered Chaos
9th: Dive for Cover (Go Prone to retry a failed reflex save. To offset this: standing up from prone as a free action without
attacks of oppertunity = DC 35 means rolling a 2 is a success.)
12th:Brutal Throw

Monk: Improved Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Combat Reflexes
Evasion

Fighter
1:Exotic Weapon Prof(Harpoon)
2:

Ranger
Track
Favored Enemy (Dragons)

Barbarian
Rage
Movement Bonus +10ft.

Drunken Master
Drink Like A demon
Improvised Weapons (Improved,Greater) 1d8 additional damage
Stagger DC 15 (Max Ranks 15 + 3 + Item for +15)
Swaying Waist
AC Bonus +1

#27

croxley_dup

Jul 14, 2009 23:31:56

Back On Your Feet Skill Trick from Complete Scoundrel will do what Dive for Cover does without using up a Feat?

Brutal Throw is a great idea

#28

flawless_p

Jul 14, 2009 23:41:32

Back On Your Feet Skill Trick from Complete Scoundrel will do what Dive for Cover does without using up a Feat?

Brutal Throw is a great idea

Dive for Cover actually allows you to make a second Reflex save in the event that you fail the initial one but you end up prone, The notation is just a reminder of how this is going to be offset. I.E. Free Stand Epic use of Tumble

#29

siranui

Jul 15, 2009 5:10:07

There's a bit of a dragon theme in the party, so I'd break open the various dragon books and throw them against an assorted bunch of hardened and specialised dragon slayers.

Are the party evil? If so, include a paladin or two!

Is the MoMF a bit of a one-trick pony who always resorts to beholder? If so, then I'd make a point of somehow depriving him of his 'trick' somehow, by hook or by crook: It doesn't have to be 'fair'. Maybe an ancient palace they are exploring has very ancient spells designed to stop ANY form of shapeshifting working within its limits, to prevent doppelganger or any other infiltration.

#30

kirak

Jul 15, 2009 17:04:36

I've found that the best way to make an encounter challenging is take a regular encounter and add in something that the players have no control over.

Since your party is mostly dragons, I would recommend a group of rangers, with Favored Enemy: Dragon. Through in a couple of support people, maybe a paladin or some other Good aligned caster and you have a decent encounter.

I'd then stick them in a room, large enough for decent combat, but with all the material made of mirror, so they can't pinpoint where anyone is. That or have all players look the same as the NPCs so they have to actually think during the fight. Then again there is always the trap that will kill them given enough time.

#31

SwordDisciple

Jul 15, 2009 20:55:57

Need help building a character Flawless?

#32

flawless_p

Jul 15, 2009 22:36:12

Need help building a character Flawless?

As a matter of fact I have been looking into something castery to challenge a warmage... any thoughts?

#33

SwordDisciple

Jul 15, 2009 23:24:59

Do you want to nerf him or outblast him?

To nerf him, Doc Rock's War Weaver works well at this sort of thing. I can also whip up a Sorceror who will essentially prevent him from casting spells

I can also provide an outblast him character but I think this might be bad as you don't with to kill all of them do you?

#34

flawless_p

Jul 16, 2009 1:11:10

Do you want to nerf him or outblast him?

To nerf him, Doc Rock's War Weaver works well at this sort of thing. I can also whip up a Sorceror who will essentially prevent him from casting spells

I can also provide an outblast him character but I think this might be bad as you don't with to kill all of them do you?

How about we aim for a not Out Blasting but instead Matching his blasting.

His favorite spell is Greater Fire Burst. So this is the only guy I acutally want to match with someone mostly like him....I'm thinking Ice Elemental Savant.

#35

SwordDisciple

Jul 16, 2009 5:18:08

Ok, been pondering this.. I think an Elemental Savant is a good idea too

How about:

Fire Mephling (Planar Handbook) with Draconic Creature template
Sorceror 5/ Elemental (Fire) Savant 4/ Argent Savant 4

Stats with 32 Pt Buy + levels

Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 18
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 25

You get: 6/ 8/ 8/ 8/ 7 /6 /4 level spells

You lose 1 caster level but Elemental Savant gives Elemental specialty, Immunity to sleep, Energy penetration +2, Resistance to Fire 10; and Argent Savant gives Force specialization, Force armor, Extended force, Ablate force

Feats:
Blistering Spell, Empower Spell, Energy Admixture - Fire, Energy Substitution - Fire, Practical Metamagic - Energy Admixture

This will give you the power to match his character if you want and will reduce what damage he can do to you. Spells I'll leave to you but an example of this is Magic Missile as a 5th Level Spell giving 5 missiles doing 5d4+10 Force and 5d4+7 Fire damage (average of 37, minimum of 27, maximum of 57) with the option of Empowering as well.

You could throw Warmage in there instead of Sorceror if you want to get Warmage Edge.

#36

siranui

Jul 16, 2009 5:40:06

If the caster tends to blast away from the start, I'd recommend spell reflection!

#37

SwordDisciple

Jul 16, 2009 16:27:51

So to summarise thus far..

Human Druid 5/MoMF 8 (w/ Beholder Eye Rays Assume Supernatural Ability) vs. ?
Half-Black Dragon Human Fighter 6/Occult Slayer 5 vs. The Were Bear Dungeon Crasher
Human Warmage8/GSA 5 vs. The Sorceror/Ardent
Kobold Fighter 5/Dragonrider 5/Dragon Rider 3(From Dragonlance) w/Green Dragon Cohort vs The Archer?
Black Dragon 12 HD (No Class Levels) vs. The Half-Ogre Drunken Master?
Half-Orc Dragon Shaman 9/Mountebank 4 vs ?
Tiefling Rogue 10/ Dread Pirate 3 vs. The Ninja

Question on the Mountebank Flawless, what colour Dragon does he follow? I have an idea here.

Caster Level for the Eye Rays?
A great way to nerf the Eye Rays would use something that gives Antimagic. Su's don't work in them so he would be his normal human self. Or you could use something that has a high spell resistance. Again I have an idea to combat him which I'll post soon

#38

flawless_p

Jul 16, 2009 16:56:10

So to summarise thus far..

Human Druid 5/MoMF 8 (w/ Beholder Eye Rays Assume Supernatural Ability) vs. ?
Half-Black Dragon Human Fighter 6/Occult Slayer 5 vs. The Were Bear Dungeon Crasher
Human Warmage8/GSA 5 vs. The Sorceror/Ardent
Kobold Fighter 5/Dragonrider 5/Dragon Rider 3(From Dragonlance) w/Green Dragon Cohort vs The Archer?
Black Dragon 12 HD (No Class Levels) vs. The Half-Ogre Drunken Master?
Half-Orc Dragon Shaman 9/Mountebank 4 vs ?
Tiefling Rogue 10/ Dread Pirate 3 vs. The Ninja

Question on the Mountebank Flawless, what colour Dragon does he follow? I have an idea here.

And a great way to nerf the Eye Rays would use something that gives Antimagic. Su's don't work in them so he would be his normal human self. Or you could use something that has a high spell resistance. Again I have an idea which I'll post soon

Yeah I have some old characters that i'm going to throw in to fill the blanks as the game is tonight, but if you guys want here is a bit of the build I made for the Half Orc Mountebank.

Dwarf Ranger 4/Bloodhound 5/Justicar 5

Dwarf Ranger 4/Bloodhound 5/Justicar 5

Str 18 +4
Dex 17 +3
COn 20 +5
Int 16 +3
Wis 14 +2
Cha 16 +3
Saves
+14 +12 +11

BAB
+14/+9/+4

18/12/8

Net and Trident +16-16/+10-10/+6-6
Then
22/17/12 +2 Merciful Trident 1d8+6 +3d6 and 3 Str

1rst Skill Focus (Gather Information)
3rd: Weapon Focus Trident
6th: Exotic Weapon Prof Net
9th: Net and Trident Style
12th: Quick Draw
Track Ranger
Endurance Ranger
Mark (2)
Combat Style Two Weapon Fighting

Favored Enemy Humanoids(Humans)

Bonus Nonlethal Damage:+2d6 and 3 Str

Hide 17
Listen 1
Move Silently 17
Spot 17
Survival 17
Use Rope 3
Bluff 15
Disguise 17
Gather Information 15
Intimidate 5
Sense Motive 17

#39

SwordDisciple

Jul 16, 2009 17:34:08

My idea for your MOMF is

Nerra - Kalareem (LA+6 Fiend Folio)
Outsider 3/ Fighter 2/ StreetFighter 2

Stats with 32 Pt Buy + levels

Str: 16
Dex: 20
Con: 22
Int: 13
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

Initiative: +10

HP:82

AC: 20 without Armour

Full Attack: Shard Longsword +10/+5 Shard Dagger +10/+5
Damage: Shard Longsword 1d8+5 Shard Dagger 1d4+3 off-hand plus culmulative wounding on each blow

Special Attacks: Shard spray, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Cold resistance 10, electricity resistance 10, fire resistance 10, mirror jump, outsider traits, reflective spell resistance 17, Immune to Gaze attacks, sonic vulnerability

Feats: Bonus Exotic Weapon Proficiency (shard longsword & shard dagger),
Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative

From Streetfighter: Stand Tough

Shard Spray (Su): 3/day, 30 ft cone, 1d4/lvl max 5d4 + 2 bleeding wounds.
Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—mirror image.

Combat: Shard him for 2 wounds (or get the anti-magic dust and dust him) then move in. He'll take 2 damage on his turn and will probably bring his eyes to play and hopefully get hit by a few rays himself. If all attacks hit on a full attack he'll get another 4 wounds which means he'll be bleeding for 6 hp this round. And thus forth until the Kalareem is finished - I don't think he'll be a huge upset but it will certainly shock him to have his rays reflected back at him.

#40

flawless_p

Jul 17, 2009 2:51:30

As it turns out the Dugeon Crasher Fighter was a bit more than they could handle killed 1 put another into the negatives and the beholder died too.

#41

siranui

Jul 17, 2009 3:02:55

Sounds about right: You wanted to give them a smack-down, and they got it!

#42

flawless_p

Jul 17, 2009 3:35:43

Sounds about right: You wanted to give them a smack-down, and they got it!

Yeah although I teamed him with a mage who can cast wall of force. so lots of damage was done...

#43

SwordDisciple

Jul 17, 2009 7:29:06

Yeah although I teamed him with a mage who can cast wall of force. so lots of damage was done...

Good man

But seriously, it was probably a good exercise on "The DM can do what you can do, only better". And at the end of the session, the deaths aren't anything that a good Raise Dead or Resurrection can't fix :D

#44

flawless_p

Jul 17, 2009 14:58:11

Good man

But seriously, it was probably a good exercise on "The DM can do what you can do, only better". And at the end of the session, the deaths aren't anything that a good Raise Dead or Resurrection can't fix :D

Funniest thing about it was The Ninja blinded the warmage and in response to Panic the Warmage started using greater fire burst, one failed reflex save later and the Beholder was killed via friendly fire.