Building a Character with low stats - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Building a Character with low stats

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ebonyphoenix
Mar 22, 2013 13:31:54 I was browsing some of the many threads, and while stumbling amongst them I had a sudden thought.

How low can I set a character's stats and still have a functional character in your average 3.5e game?

I put a couple rules in mind.

1) Character needs to be playable at level 1 (so no LA), and useful, if not powerful, until level 20.

2) Templates and racial variants are allowed, but they cannot have an LA attached as per rule 1.

3) Assume your stats, pre-racial bonuses, are straight 8s, 9s, or 10s.

Currently, the best I've come up with is a Vow of Poverty Lesser Aasimar Druid. That works with straight 10s without delaying spell progression as far as I can tell, but seems like an obvious option all considered for optimising.

So, I decided to turn to the CharOp experts to see what else works.

Just like a game of limbo, how low can you go?
#2
Tempest_Stormwind
Mar 22, 2013 13:54:55 How low you can go is largely a function of how much cheese you can muster. It's possible to do Pun-Pun at (actually slightly before) level 1, for instance.

I would strongly recommend against Vow of Poverty. Setting aside its RP problems, the benefits you gain are worse than what your native wealth can provide at (almost) every level, and certainly less customizable. If your ability scores are low, you'll need your gear to pick up the slack.

Lesser Aasimar is one of the better races for this, yes; adding Dragonborn to that basis gives you a LA+0 race with -2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, and the other dragonborn goodies in place of the aasimar's energy resistance and Daylight spell-like ability. (The Mind aspect gives you better perception than the aasimar if that's your goal, although the other aspects are more dramatic and might see better use.)

The bigger concern is picking a class that can get by without particular ability scores. Polymorphers (including druids) are a good example of this because if they need their physical scores, they can just replace them. Other possibilities include artificers (although with a low Charisma, Skill Focus (UMD) might be a good investment; the point here is to trigger magic from items which don't reference your ability scores; the Wand Overdrive build in my signature is a good example of this) and possibly warlocks or binders (both of these classes can be built without demanding particularly high ability scores, although their impact is limited).
#3
StevenO
Mar 22, 2013 14:12:05 A 'functional' character with stats that low is almost always going to be based on physical combat or skills although if you can get spellcasting of some kind that may break things wide open. I'm not sure they will function well at all in even an "average" 3.5 game where even the basic NPCs have higher stats then you do unless you are resorting to some kind of cheese.

Tempest has mentioned the Warlock (I don't know much about Binders) and that could be a very potent class as it's EB damage doesn't care about ability scores and unless I'm mistaken low ability scores will not prevent a character from getting better invocations.
#4
Tempest_Stormwind
Mar 22, 2013 14:41:00
Tempest has mentioned the Warlock (I don't know much about Binders) and that could be a very potent class as it's EB damage doesn't care about ability scores and unless I'm mistaken low ability scores will not prevent a character from getting better invocations.

The other thing is that warlock invocations that care about ability scores generally only care about a single score - Dexterity if you're focusing on targeted blasts, or Charisma if you're focusing on carrier effects. So while you're gaining new invocations (which, as has been mentioned, don't care about your scores the way that spells do - i.e. you can have 8 Charisma and still get Dark invocations), you can work on amping up one or the other score with points, booster gear, and tomes. You may only finish with a 24 or 26 with full gear, which isn't all that hot, but it's a start.

Binders work similarly to warlocks in that their abilities do not require ability scores to learn, and most of them come with enough of a boost that you can at least be competent in an area (i.e. as I recall, binding Paimon gives you increased Dexterity, Weapon Finesse, proficiency with several light blades, a bonus on Tumble, and an ability that, once every 5 rounds, allows you to dance past targets and attack them on the go - that's a pretty decent fencer backdrop even before you consider other vestiges adding into that. He's also available at a reasonably low level.) Save DCs tend to be based on your Charisma, but again, if you pick the right vestiges, you can either synergize well with that (eg. Naberius is a badass social bind) or cover for other non-charisma effects (eg. the Paimon example above). They're also not fixed to any particular role from one day to the next, so while a binder with higher - and variable - ability scores might pick pacts that emphasize his array, having a uniform 8 across the board means that there isn't really a "best" vestige for you and you can adapt to whatever you need from day to day. (Be advised that if you fail binding checks, and some have nontrivial DCs, the vestiges influence your personality and might attach an ever-growing penalty to you if you don't act in accordance with their wishes.)

Another thing to note: A lot of "common" feats have ability score requirements. Power Attack comes to mind (and melee without Power Attack simply can't keep up on the damage front - to say nothing of trying to melee with 8 Constitution). Others lack ability score requirements explicitly but have an implicit one - Combat Reflexes can be taken at any Dexterity but won't provide any benefit if you've got less than a 12. This rules out a LOT of common tactical choices as well as long-term prestige class options.
#5
awaken_D_M_golem
Mar 22, 2013 14:45:45 3rd-ing Warlock ... Druid deserves a mention,
especially if the various stat mods are available
later like normal. Pumping all that back into Wis
is obvious, says captain obvious.

There was a short discussion about this, buried
within BG somewhere. iirc - the lowest highest
stat is a 14 (reread that, I really was trying to make sense).

OA Samurai (possibly the CW also)
sell the stupid masterwork fan shield thingy
keep the Sword , Mercantile feat
quick google for the +100gp 1st level apprentice thingy
Semi- magic mart , and go to town buying
Bunko's + early MacGyver stuff
#6
Andarious-Rosethorn
Mar 22, 2013 14:54:33 VoP's garbage, excpet for Polymorphers, which you suggested. I'm pretty sure that's why you went with that huh? It's not until much later level in 3.5 that you can get enough Wild items to make WBL better than VOP on a Polymorph focused character, unless blowing WBL up by exploiting trade good production or some other loophole.

Warlock is one of those strange shining stars, and not just because of EB which is really bad, even when optimized to hell. There's a bunch of non-attribute dependant stuff you can cause like Summon Swarm and Chill Tentacles.
#7
ebonyphoenix
Mar 22, 2013 15:05:33
First, thank you for the replies.

Going down the line...

Regarding the VoP Aasimaar: I would never play a VoP character, simply because I'm not confident enough in my roleplay capabilities to pull it off. The VoP was simply the idea that I had that fit the limitations, not that it was a terrific idea for your average Joe.

Warlock makes sense, the touch attack abilities and the non-DC related invocations would work.

Similar to Steven0, I don't have enough knowledge on the Binder either, but that does look like a good class when you don't have the ability scores to fall back on.

I fully get what you're saying about the lowest-highest stat awaken. The ideal scores to still be hitting somewhat reliably, or getting your 9th level spells without items/Wish/Miracle is 14 plus the 5 stat points by level 20.

To clarify, this whole question is more of a thought exercise.

While it would be an idea to save for a low-powered game, I'm unlikely to run it myself otherwise.
#8
Maat_Mons
Mar 23, 2013 4:57:44
It's possible to get some fairly large bonuses from race, even when restricted to +0 LA.

Strength: Water orc (Unearthed Arcana, p18) gives +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha for +0 LA. The proto-creature template (Bestiary of Krynn, p88 [p79 for revised version]) gives +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -4 cha for +0 LA. With all 8s to start with, that's str 16, dex 8, con 12, int 4, wis 6, cha 2.

Dexterity: Muckdweller (Serpent Kingdoms, p71) gives +6 dex, -6 str, -2 wis, -2 cha for +0 LA. With all 8s to start with, that's str 2, dex 14, con 8, int 8, wis 6, cha 6.

Constitution: Gnome gives +2 con, -2 str. The arctic variant (Dragon 306, p61) gives +2 con, -2 cha for +0 LA. The dragonborn of Bahamut template (Races of the Dragon, p5; already mentioned by Tempest) give +2 con, -2 dex for +0 LA. The proto-creature template (see above) also finds use here. With all 8s to start with, that's str 10, dex 6, con 14, int 6, cha 2.

Intelligence: I can't find anything better than the assorted +2 int races here.

Wisdom: Anthropomorphic bat (Savage Species, p215) gives +6 wis, -4 str, -2 cha for +0 LA. With all 8s to start with, that's str 4, dex 8, con 8, int 8, wis 14, cha 6.

Charisma: I can't find anything better than the assorted +2 cha races here.

I was actually avoiding lesser planetouched for those. Mostly just because it's annoying to provide citations for them. I like providing citations. Anyway, you can look at more alternatives here.

Getting a bit cheesier, the incarnate construct template (Savage Species, p120) is -2 LA.
#9
Slagger_the_Chuul
Mar 23, 2013 10:39:24 Tainted Scholar is another one that's relatively score-independent, assuming taint is available. It's just a question of surviving five levels as an arcane caster before that. If you just wanted to tough out some low levels, a mongrelfolk totemist (with dragonborn of Bahamut, if possible) could hold it together as an option, just to squeeze Constitution for all it's worth.

But it is hard to beat druid overall, especially since they've got such a good chance to survive the lower levels; the animal companion is a huge boon there, and having built-in summoning to keep yourself off the front lines doesn't hurt.
#10
ebonyphoenix
Mar 23, 2013 12:16:42 Well, it seems that once again I must bow before you all. *bow*

That definitely answers my quandary, and once again shows how much I have yet to grow in my CharOp-Fu. (So much to learn, so little time)

Feel free to keep adding ideas as you wish, but that takes care of my original post.

#11
Tempest_Stormwind
Mar 23, 2013 12:39:26
Tainted Scholar is another one that's relatively score-independent, assuming taint is available. It's just a question of surviving five levels as an arcane caster before that. If you just wanted to tough out some low levels, a mongrelfolk totemist (with dragonborn of Bahamut, if possible) could hold it together as an option, just to squeeze Constitution for all it's worth.

Slight issue: Mongrelfolk are +1 LA.

Something else just occurred to me: Warforged with Adamantine Body are uncommonly tough at level 1 (+2 con, full plate, DR 2/adamantine, host of immunities from the construct type and living construct subtype), and that doesn't have an ability score requirement. Oddly enough, they can be turned into Dragonborn as well (not terribly worthwhile as most of the warforged's appeal comes from things overwritten by that template, but if you're trying to do melee it's a better choice than gnome (Medium size and penalties on Wisdom and Charisma instead of Small size with penalty to Strength). Maat's other suggestions are spot-on (although I hadn't heard of protocreature before).
#12
awaken_D_M_golem
Mar 23, 2013 14:39:16 Don't wanna rolE-play Vow Of Poverty?

You don't have to. Give it a refluff ... like
you're a 4e Companion Character somehow
transported across Space, Time and Editions!
(wink)
#13
Tempest_Stormwind
Mar 23, 2013 15:44:08
Don't wanna rolE-play Vow Of Poverty?

You don't have to. Give it a refluff ... like
you're a 4e Companion Character somehow
transported across Space, Time and Editions!
(wink)

Sadly, the mechanics of the feat involve taking your share of the loot and giving it all away to the poor, and not making use of anything beyond the Gandhi-esque gear listed in the feat. You can refluff why the feat works, but not how it works.
#14
Slagger_the_Chuul
Mar 23, 2013 21:53:39
Tainted Scholar is another one that's relatively score-independent, assuming taint is available. It's just a question of surviving five levels as an arcane caster before that. If you just wanted to tough out some low levels, a mongrelfolk totemist (with dragonborn of Bahamut, if possible) could hold it together as an option, just to squeeze Constitution for all it's worth.

Slight issue: Mongrelfolk are +1 LA.

The Fiend Folio and Races of Destiny have them at +0 LA. What is your source for +1 LA?
#15
Tempest_Stormwind
Mar 23, 2013 22:22:35
Tainted Scholar is another one that's relatively score-independent, assuming taint is available. It's just a question of surviving five levels as an arcane caster before that. If you just wanted to tough out some low levels, a mongrelfolk totemist (with dragonborn of Bahamut, if possible) could hold it together as an option, just to squeeze Constitution for all it's worth.

Slight issue: Mongrelfolk are +1 LA.

The Fiend Folio and Races of Destiny have them at +0 LA. What is your source for +1 LA?

Poor memory? I just double-checked RoD and was kind of surprised at the result.
#16
Slagger_the_Chuul
Mar 23, 2013 22:44:40
The Fiend Folio and Races of Destiny have them at +0 LA. What is your source for +1 LA?

Poor memory? I just double-checked RoD and was kind of surprised at the result.

They do get punished quite a bit on the other ability scores.

They're certainly very usable for something like the totemist (I can't think of anything else that has such a pure Constitution dependence), but it's hard to measure well against the spellcasters at higher level.
#17
Andarious-Rosethorn
Mar 24, 2013 3:52:24 They'd work really well for the Captain Constitution build, having of course to use Stoneblessed (Dwarf) to qualify for completing it.
#18
awaken_D_M_golem
Mar 24, 2013 12:43:05
Don't wanna rolE-play Vow Of Poverty?

You don't have to. Give it a refluff ... like
you're a 4e Companion Character somehow
transported across Space, Time and Editions!
(wink)

Sadly, the mechanics of the feat involve taking your share of the loot and giving it all away to the poor, and not making use of anything beyond the Gandhi-esque gear listed in the feat. You can refluff why the feat works, but not how it works.

Heh right ; crunch.

The 4e CC gives away his (her/it's) share of the loot to the poor -ly built PCs.

Tauric Template can be used not-quite-so abusively, but
still have bad stats. It takes a bit of inverto work to do it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ebonyphoenix Mar 22, 2013 13:31:54	I was browsing some of the many threads, and while stumbling amongst them I had a sudden thought. How low can I set a character's stats and still have a functional character in your average 3.5e game? I put a couple rules in mind. 1) Character needs to be playable at level 1 (so no LA), and useful, if not powerful, until level 20. 2) Templates and racial variants are allowed, but they cannot have an LA attached as per rule 1. 3) Assume your stats, pre-racial bonuses, are straight 8s, 9s, or 10s. Currently, the best I've come up with is a Vow of Poverty Lesser Aasimar Druid. That works with straight 10s without delaying spell progression as far as I can tell, but seems like an obvious option all considered for optimising. So, I decided to turn to the CharOp experts to see what else works. Just like a game of limbo, how low can you go?
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 22, 2013 13:54:55	How low you can go is largely a function of how much cheese you can muster. It's possible to do Pun-Pun at (actually slightly before) level 1, for instance. I would strongly recommend against Vow of Poverty. Setting aside its RP problems, the benefits you gain are worse than what your native wealth can provide at (almost) every level, and certainly less customizable. If your ability scores are low, you'll need your gear to pick up the slack. Lesser Aasimar is one of the better races for this, yes; adding Dragonborn to that basis gives you a LA+0 race with -2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, and the other dragonborn goodies in place of the aasimar's energy resistance and Daylight spell-like ability. (The Mind aspect gives you better perception than the aasimar if that's your goal, although the other aspects are more dramatic and might see better use.) The bigger concern is picking a class that can get by without particular ability scores. Polymorphers (including druids) are a good example of this because if they need their physical scores, they can just replace them. Other possibilities include artificers (although with a low Charisma, Skill Focus (UMD) might be a good investment; the point here is to trigger magic from items which don't reference your ability scores; the Wand Overdrive build in my signature is a good example of this) and possibly warlocks or binders (both of these classes can be built without demanding particularly high ability scores, although their impact is limited).
#3 StevenO Mar 22, 2013 14:12:05	A 'functional' character with stats that low is almost always going to be based on physical combat or skills although if you can get spellcasting of some kind that may break things wide open. I'm not sure they will function well at all in even an "average" 3.5 game where even the basic NPCs have higher stats then you do unless you are resorting to some kind of cheese. Tempest has mentioned the Warlock (I don't know much about Binders) and that could be a very potent class as it's EB damage doesn't care about ability scores and unless I'm mistaken low ability scores will not prevent a character from getting better invocations.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 22, 2013 14:41:00	Tempest has mentioned the Warlock (I don't know much about Binders) and that could be a very potent class as it's EB damage doesn't care about ability scores and unless I'm mistaken low ability scores will not prevent a character from getting better invocations. The other thing is that warlock invocations that care about ability scores generally only care about a single score - Dexterity if you're focusing on targeted blasts, or Charisma if you're focusing on carrier effects. So while you're gaining new invocations (which, as has been mentioned, don't care about your scores the way that spells do - i.e. you can have 8 Charisma and still get Dark invocations), you can work on amping up one or the other score with points, booster gear, and tomes. You may only finish with a 24 or 26 with full gear, which isn't all that hot, but it's a start. Binders work similarly to warlocks in that their abilities do not require ability scores to learn, and most of them come with enough of a boost that you can at least be competent in an area (i.e. as I recall, binding Paimon gives you increased Dexterity, Weapon Finesse, proficiency with several light blades, a bonus on Tumble, and an ability that, once every 5 rounds, allows you to dance past targets and attack them on the go - that's a pretty decent fencer backdrop even before you consider other vestiges adding into that. He's also available at a reasonably low level.) Save DCs tend to be based on your Charisma, but again, if you pick the right vestiges, you can either synergize well with that (eg. Naberius is a badass social bind) or cover for other non-charisma effects (eg. the Paimon example above). They're also not fixed to any particular role from one day to the next, so while a binder with higher - and variable - ability scores might pick pacts that emphasize his array, having a uniform 8 across the board means that there isn't really a "best" vestige for you and you can adapt to whatever you need from day to day. (Be advised that if you fail binding checks, and some have nontrivial DCs, the vestiges influence your personality and might attach an ever-growing penalty to you if you don't act in accordance with their wishes.) Another thing to note: A lot of "common" feats have ability score requirements. Power Attack comes to mind (and melee without Power Attack simply can't keep up on the damage front - to say nothing of trying to melee with 8 Constitution). Others lack ability score requirements explicitly but have an implicit one - Combat Reflexes can be taken at any Dexterity but won't provide any benefit if you've got less than a 12. This rules out a LOT of common tactical choices as well as long-term prestige class options.
#5 awaken_D_M_golem Mar 22, 2013 14:45:45	3rd-ing Warlock ... Druid deserves a mention, especially if the various stat mods are available later like normal. Pumping all that back into Wis is obvious, says captain obvious. There was a short discussion about this, buried within BG somewhere. iirc - the lowest highest stat is a 14 (reread that, I really was trying to make sense). OA Samurai (possibly the CW also) sell the stupid masterwork fan shield thingy keep the Sword , Mercantile feat quick google for the +100gp 1st level apprentice thingy Semi- magic mart , and go to town buying Bunko's + early MacGyver stuff
#6 Andarious-Rosethorn Mar 22, 2013 14:54:33	VoP's garbage, excpet for Polymorphers, which you suggested. I'm pretty sure that's why you went with that huh? It's not until much later level in 3.5 that you can get enough Wild items to make WBL better than VOP on a Polymorph focused character, unless blowing WBL up by exploiting trade good production or some other loophole. Warlock is one of those strange shining stars, and not just because of EB which is really bad, even when optimized to hell. There's a bunch of non-attribute dependant stuff you can cause like Summon Swarm and Chill Tentacles.
#7 ebonyphoenix Mar 22, 2013 15:05:33	First, thank you for the replies. Going down the line... Regarding the VoP Aasimaar: I would never play a VoP character, simply because I'm not confident enough in my roleplay capabilities to pull it off. The VoP was simply the idea that I had that fit the limitations, not that it was a terrific idea for your average Joe. Warlock makes sense, the touch attack abilities and the non-DC related invocations would work. Similar to Steven0, I don't have enough knowledge on the Binder either, but that does look like a good class when you don't have the ability scores to fall back on. I fully get what you're saying about the lowest-highest stat awaken. The ideal scores to still be hitting somewhat reliably, or getting your 9th level spells without items/Wish/Miracle is 14 plus the 5 stat points by level 20. To clarify, this whole question is more of a thought exercise. While it would be an idea to save for a low-powered game, I'm unlikely to run it myself otherwise.
#8 Maat_Mons Mar 23, 2013 4:57:44	It's possible to get some fairly large bonuses from race, even when restricted to +0 LA. Strength: Water orc (Unearthed Arcana, p18) gives +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha for +0 LA. The proto-creature template (Bestiary of Krynn, p88 [p79 for revised version]) gives +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -4 cha for +0 LA. With all 8s to start with, that's str 16, dex 8, con 12, int 4, wis 6, cha 2. Dexterity: Muckdweller (Serpent Kingdoms, p71) gives +6 dex, -6 str, -2 wis, -2 cha for +0 LA. With all 8s to start with, that's str 2, dex 14, con 8, int 8, wis 6, cha 6. Constitution: Gnome gives +2 con, -2 str. The arctic variant (Dragon 306, p61) gives +2 con, -2 cha for +0 LA. The dragonborn of Bahamut template (Races of the Dragon, p5; already mentioned by Tempest) give +2 con, -2 dex for +0 LA. The proto-creature template (see above) also finds use here. With all 8s to start with, that's str 10, dex 6, con 14, int 6, cha 2. Intelligence: I can't find anything better than the assorted +2 int races here. Wisdom: Anthropomorphic bat (Savage Species, p215) gives +6 wis, -4 str, -2 cha for +0 LA. With all 8s to start with, that's str 4, dex 8, con 8, int 8, wis 14, cha 6. Charisma: I can't find anything better than the assorted +2 cha races here. I was actually avoiding lesser planetouched for those. Mostly just because it's annoying to provide citations for them. I like providing citations. Anyway, you can look at more alternatives here. Getting a bit cheesier, the incarnate construct template (Savage Species, p120) is -2 LA.
#9 Slagger_the_Chuul Mar 23, 2013 10:39:24	Tainted Scholar is another one that's relatively score-independent, assuming taint is available. It's just a question of surviving five levels as an arcane caster before that. If you just wanted to tough out some low levels, a mongrelfolk totemist (with dragonborn of Bahamut, if possible) could hold it together as an option, just to squeeze Constitution for all it's worth. But it is hard to beat druid overall, especially since they've got such a good chance to survive the lower levels; the animal companion is a huge boon there, and having built-in summoning to keep yourself off the front lines doesn't hurt.
#10 ebonyphoenix Mar 23, 2013 12:16:42	Well, it seems that once again I must bow before you all. bow That definitely answers my quandary, and once again shows how much I have yet to grow in my CharOp-Fu. (So much to learn, so little time) Feel free to keep adding ideas as you wish, but that takes care of my original post.
#11 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 23, 2013 12:39:26	Tainted Scholar is another one that's relatively score-independent, assuming taint is available. It's just a question of surviving five levels as an arcane caster before that. If you just wanted to tough out some low levels, a mongrelfolk totemist (with dragonborn of Bahamut, if possible) could hold it together as an option, just to squeeze Constitution for all it's worth. Slight issue: Mongrelfolk are +1 LA. Something else just occurred to me: Warforged with Adamantine Body are uncommonly tough at level 1 (+2 con, full plate, DR 2/adamantine, host of immunities from the construct type and living construct subtype), and that doesn't have an ability score requirement. Oddly enough, they can be turned into Dragonborn as well (not terribly worthwhile as most of the warforged's appeal comes from things overwritten by that template, but if you're trying to do melee it's a better choice than gnome (Medium size and penalties on Wisdom and Charisma instead of Small size with penalty to Strength). Maat's other suggestions are spot-on (although I hadn't heard of protocreature before).
#12 awaken_D_M_golem Mar 23, 2013 14:39:16	Don't wanna rolE-play Vow Of Poverty? You don't have to. Give it a refluff ... like you're a 4e Companion Character somehow transported across Space, Time and Editions! (wink)
#13 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 23, 2013 15:44:08	Don't wanna rolE-play Vow Of Poverty? You don't have to. Give it a refluff ... like you're a 4e Companion Character somehow transported across Space, Time and Editions! (wink) Sadly, the mechanics of the feat involve taking your share of the loot and giving it all away to the poor, and not making use of anything beyond the Gandhi-esque gear listed in the feat. You can refluff why the feat works, but not how it works.
#14 Slagger_the_Chuul Mar 23, 2013 21:53:39	Tainted Scholar is another one that's relatively score-independent, assuming taint is available. It's just a question of surviving five levels as an arcane caster before that. If you just wanted to tough out some low levels, a mongrelfolk totemist (with dragonborn of Bahamut, if possible) could hold it together as an option, just to squeeze Constitution for all it's worth. Slight issue: Mongrelfolk are +1 LA. The Fiend Folio and Races of Destiny have them at +0 LA. What is your source for +1 LA?
#15 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 23, 2013 22:22:35	Tainted Scholar is another one that's relatively score-independent, assuming taint is available. It's just a question of surviving five levels as an arcane caster before that. If you just wanted to tough out some low levels, a mongrelfolk totemist (with dragonborn of Bahamut, if possible) could hold it together as an option, just to squeeze Constitution for all it's worth. Slight issue: Mongrelfolk are +1 LA. The Fiend Folio and Races of Destiny have them at +0 LA. What is your source for +1 LA? Poor memory? I just double-checked RoD and was kind of surprised at the result.
#16 Slagger_the_Chuul Mar 23, 2013 22:44:40	The Fiend Folio and Races of Destiny have them at +0 LA. What is your source for +1 LA? Poor memory? I just double-checked RoD and was kind of surprised at the result. They do get punished quite a bit on the other ability scores. They're certainly very usable for something like the totemist (I can't think of anything else that has such a pure Constitution dependence), but it's hard to measure well against the spellcasters at higher level.
#17 Andarious-Rosethorn Mar 24, 2013 3:52:24	They'd work really well for the Captain Constitution build, having of course to use Stoneblessed (Dwarf) to qualify for completing it.
#18 awaken_D_M_golem Mar 24, 2013 12:43:05	Don't wanna rolE-play Vow Of Poverty? You don't have to. Give it a refluff ... like you're a 4e Companion Character somehow transported across Space, Time and Editions! (wink) Sadly, the mechanics of the feat involve taking your share of the loot and giving it all away to the poor, and not making use of anything beyond the Gandhi-esque gear listed in the feat. You can refluff why the feat works, but not how it works. Heh right ; crunch. The 4e CC gives away his (her/it's) share of the loot to the poor -ly built PCs. Tauric Template can be used not-quite-so abusively, but still have bad stats. It takes a bit of inverto work to do it.