Building a dual class Dread Necromancer - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Building a dual class Dread Necromancer

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jasper1972
Dec 22, 2008 11:49:30 Howdy,

First time posting to the boards. Forgive the newb-ness.

My DM is running a campaign, heading towards epic level, starting at 5th (going to 20th or so). We're playing dual classed characters, and the party is neutral or good.

I'm wanting to play the undead controlling character, and Dread Necromancer looked like exactly what I was looking for (the black sheep of the party). However, I'm going back and forth on what the other class should be, and what my progression track should be.

I've considered Bard, Sorcerer, and Hexblade, as they all rely on the same base stats that the Dread Necromancer does (Dex and Cha, mostly). We're using a 32 point stat build system, and I'm looking to optimize the stats where possible.

I'm envisioning someone who hangs back and lets his undead do his fighting for him (though how that'll work at 5th level, I'm not quite sure).

For prestige classes, I've been thinking about Pale Master and/or True Necromancer.

Last question, when is controlling your undead a standard action? When you first give them orders? When you change their orders? Every round that they're there (which, I imagine, would seriously hamper your ability to cast other spells). Does it matter if the undead is summoned or animated or rebuked (whether it's a standard action to control them)?

Any suggestions/tips/threads I should have read before posting this?

Thanks!
#2
phaedrusxy
Dec 22, 2008 12:27:45 There is no such thing as Duel classing, unless you're playing a 2nd edition (or earlier?) game. You must be talking about gestalt. I'd suggest cleric for the other class, with a focus on buffing via Divine Metamagic: Persistent, or DMM: Quicken. True Necro should be an illegal class in gestalt, as it is duel progression.

Undead controlled via Animate Dead respond to verbal commands, and talking is a free action. Rebuked/Commanded undead require a standard action. I think this should only apply when you want to change the commands they're following, though.

Archivist might be another class to consider gestalting with, since you'll get Rebuke Undead to fuel your DMM from Dread Necro. If you go with a true neutral deity for your cleric, you could get Turn Undead, though. Having that plus Rebuke Undead should give you double the normal number of Turning attempts, letting you get alot more mileage out of Divine Metamagic. Things like Extra Turning would apply to both classes, also.
#3
jasper1972
Dec 22, 2008 13:35:02 Yeah, you're right (feelin sheepish), I meant gestalt.

The Dread Necromancer already has the Rebuke Undead feat if I recally correctly. If my other class was a cleric, how would that work? Would I be able to control twice as many undead?

Thanks for the reply.
#4
phaedrusxy
Dec 22, 2008 13:43:16
The Dread Necromancer already has the Rebuke Undead feat if I recally correctly. If my other class was a cleric, how would that work? Would I be able to control twice as many undead?

The best answer is... ask your DM. If you have both Turn Undead AND Rebuke Undead, you should almost certainly get them as separate abilities, with a total of twice the normal number of Turn/Rebuke attempts. If you get Rebuke from two classes... it isn't as clear, especially in gestalt...
#5
phoenix00
Dec 22, 2008 13:56:01 Another good option for the other side is binder (especially if you take a level of cleric for turn undead to compliment the rebuke undead, and then take tenebrous which boosts both turn and rebuke undead.)

Sure archivist would be better due to DMM, but binder is flavorful and easy on the book keeping once you have the build done.
#6
almagest
Dec 22, 2008 14:14:35
The best answer is... ask your DM. If you have both Turn Undead AND Rebuke Undead, you should almost certainly get them as separate abilities, with a total of twice the normal number of Turn/Rebuke attempts. If you get Rebuke from two classes... it isn't as clear, especially in gestalt...

I would say that with two class features that are exactly the same, you choose the better of the two, like with HP, BAB, saves, etc. If they're similar, but not the same (arcane spontaneous/vancian casting, turn/rebuke undead, etc.), you get both. It's probably up to the DM, though, like you said.
#7
jasper1972
Dec 22, 2008 19:36:51
Another good option for the other side is binder (especially if you take a level of cleric for turn undead to compliment the rebuke undead, and then take tenebrous which boosts both turn and rebuke undead.)

Sure archivist would be better due to DMM, but binder is flavorful and easy on the book keeping once you have the build done.

What is tenebrous? I can't find that. Is that a feat?
#8
rebel7284
Dec 22, 2008 20:12:00 It's a vestige a binder can bind. Basically vestiges are aspects of extraplanar beings that give you class features. They are specific to binders.
#9
jimmynids
Dec 22, 2008 21:21:35
Yeah, you're right (feelin sheepish), I meant gestalt.

The Dread Necromancer already has the Rebuke Undead feat if I recally correctly. If my other class was a cleric, how would that work? Would I be able to control twice as many undead?

Thanks for the reply.

Rebuke Undead stacks with Rebuke Undead. Cleric specifically says you must pick one and turn/rebuke was ruled if you have one you cannot have the other, they are mutually exclusive. If you have rebuke from 2 sources, the levels stack, however you can only gain 1 effective rebuking level per level when gestalting because you gain the benefits of any class features or abilities once. Example is if you were a gestalt sorcerer wizard, you dont have second level casting, you have 1st wizard and 1st sorcerer and they have 2 separate spell lists. If you took rogue and assassin, you could take the levels so that you gain 1d6 sneak attack every level, but if you would get 1d6 from both classes at the same time, you only get 1d6 not 2d6.

Dread Necromancer and Cleric is a waste as you cannot control more undead this way, Binder is a good idea, and prestige into Anima Mage for full Binding and Spellcasting. Alternatively you could go with Dread Necro and Wizard into Ultimate Magus. Or Dread Necro 20 and Binder 20. I like the whole DN20 cause you get (4+CHA)*Your DN level in undead control, so you would have the potential to get 300HD of undead control by 20, with a +6 item, +5points from level ups and a +5 CHA Tome with a base CHA 18. On top of this you will be a binding beast. Avoid dual progression prestiges, you prolly want at least DN 20.

OOH! Rogue 20! You are now a DN20 with improved evasion, 10d6 sneak attack on spells, cannot be flanked, and can bluff/tumble/diplomacy anything and has nice rogue tricks with DR from DN... fun stuff!

Lotsa ideas others will say are better but there is a few simple ones here that work nicely.

Gestalt Rules: When you gain the same feature from 2 sources, pick the better of the 2

Take the highest saves of both classes, as well as HD, skill points, BAB, only one set of spells per day(assuming both classes add spells per day to the same class spell pool) otherwise(incase of arcane and divine or spontaneous and prepared) gain a spell level of each class.

Remember, do what makes you happy, what you think you will enjoy, not what we say to because we like it or think its the best.
#10
phoenix00
Dec 23, 2008 2:02:12 Binders allow you to bind vestiges, effectively you are making deals with spirits, devils, demons, angels, and other beings and gaining part of their powers in return for them to "feel part of the material world."

Tenebrous, the Shadow that was is actually an imprint from the Demon Orcus. Orcus for a time assumed true godhood before he was betrayed by the Drow Demigod Kiaransalee. Somehow part of Orcus survived this betrayl but he was a shadow of what he once was, and due to the magic of Kiaransalee was forgotten by mortal men (and thus loss even more power for he wasn't worshipped.) He changed his name to Tenebrous as a means of hiding.

Tenebrous trying to regain all his powers began on a secret quest. He was stopped by adventurers and he was destroyed again.

He was then resurrected but during the resurrection process he lost his divinity and was a normal demon prince.

------

A binder binds with the shadow of the shadow of Orcus's original divinity.

------

Tenebrous when bind gives you a bonus to your turn/rebuke level equal to your binding level.

Ability to create a permanent deeper darkness ability which you can suppress/create at will. As well the ability to always see in darkness even your own darkness.

The flicker shadow mystery a few times per day.
#11
jameswilliamogle
Dec 23, 2008 2:08:17 A Dread Necromancer 20 // Paladin of Tyranny (or Slaughter) 20 would be both fun and flavorful (and simple). Paladin of Tyranny (and Slaughter) is a base class with some minor modifications from the Paladin found in Unearthed Arcana or here.
#12
jaronk
Dec 23, 2008 2:51:08 Well, the build I've been wanting to do for a while (and note that Anima Mage is not recommended for Gestalt, so ask your DM on this one, plus it's using the Divine adaptation for Anima Mage) is this:

Dread Necromancer 20//Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Tenebrous Apostate 5. Note that Tainted Sorcerer should be taken as soon as you can afford an item that gives Moment of Perfect Mind and have a high enough concentration check to always pass the save to not take more levels in the class.

It's brutal. 16th level Binding (with max level vestiges), 19th level Archivist casting (using taint for your casting stat, so no need to keep a high Int or Wis), free metamagics all day long as long as you're binding Naberius on Archivist spells, free material components all day long on Archivist spells, 20th level Dread Necromancer casting, SAD around Charisma (though Con is nice too), the ability to AoE burst heal all undead in the area easily, access to nearly every spell in the game (and certainly all the good ones), free self healing in addition to being able to persist various healing spells, AoE buffs combined with undead minions, free access to nearly every crafting feat when you want them... the works.

Or, if you prefer, swap Tenebrous Apostate for Runesmith, and be a Gold Dwarf. You'll have to bind Sovok all the time for Heavy Armor proficiency and lose 5 levels of binding, plus the AoE burst heals, but you gain the ability to craft runes of persistant spells and give them to your minions or party mates, plus you'll get spell like abilities of spells with exp costs (True Creation!). Fun stuff.

...of course, if that's too game breaking, Binder 20//Dread Necromancer 20 works good too.

JaronK
#13
jameswilliamogle
Dec 23, 2008 3:35:57 Binder 15 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 // Dread Necromancer 20 is my preference for slightly more combat ability.

A super debuffer:
Dread Necromancer 8 / Shadow Adept 2 / Incanatrix 10 // Hexblade 7 / Paladin of Tyranny 3 / Binder 10
+17 BAB, dark companion / aura of despair (x3 w/ Focolar and Chupoclops) / Hexblade curse (greater) gives a net -12 to saves to nearby opponents, and a little smaller debuff to skills, attack rolls, and AC (I think one affects AC, afb). Lots of reduced cost metamagics to make that save debuff useful (twinned harms, for example, or repeating slay livings, or quickened mass harms after charging in to pounce some dude w/ shocktrooper).

Makes me wish I knew DMs that did gestalt!
#14
phoenix00
Dec 23, 2008 3:44:17 If you do the binding route, try to get your DM to allow other spellcasting prcs to advance binding. For example if you can the fiend blood prc from heroes of horror to advance spellcasting you get 5 more spells of the illusion, enchantment, necromancy (things such as favor of the martyr are allowed), or fire descriptors. Balancing out your dread necro while still be full binding advancing.

More fiendblood love here
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=873373

Heart ripper+chain metamagic vs finger of death. The entire party of monsters (though lower save dcs) or a single creature?

Next level you get the spell that freezes everyone from frostburn.
#15
phaedrusxy
Dec 23, 2008 12:51:42
Rebuke Undead stacks with Rebuke Undead. Cleric specifically says you must pick one and turn/rebuke was ruled if you have one you cannot have the other, they are mutually exclusive. If you have rebuke from 2 sources, the levels stack, however you can only gain 1 effective rebuking level per level when gestalting because you gain the benefits of any class features or abilities once.

Is this from the gestalt rules? The FAQ? Sage Advice? What? I don't remember ever hearing such a "ruling".
#16
tonymitsu
Dec 23, 2008 13:58:42
Is this from the gestalt rules? The FAQ? Sage Advice? What? I don't remember ever hearing such a "ruling".

He's right about the cleric thing, a neutral cleric has to choose whether he turns or rebukes undead (just like whether he throws for cures or inflicts).

He's also right about the gestalt class ability thing, as in the same ability from different classes granted at the same level doesn't stack. I'm pretty sure the sneak attack example he put there is exactly from the book.

I don't recall any specific rulings, but it's a tough call the way I see it.

I certainly wouldn't allow a player to put cleric on both sides of his build to get double the HD worth of undead and multiple turn/rebuke attempts.
But what's to say he's not a neutral Dread Necromancer//Cleric who happens to worship Wee Jas and turns/throws for healing as a cleric?
#17
phaedrusxy
Dec 23, 2008 15:03:47
He's right about the cleric thing, a neutral cleric has to choose whether he turns or rebukes undead (just like whether he throws for cures or inflicts).

That doesn't prohibit him from getting the other ability from another source, though, as far as I know.

He's also right about the gestalt class ability thing, as in the same ability from different classes granted at the same level doesn't stack. I'm pretty sure the sneak attack example he put there is exactly from the book.

Yeah, I know that part.
But what's to say he's not a neutral Dread Necromancer//Cleric who happens to worship Wee Jas and turns/throws for healing as a cleric?

This is a specific example of exactly what I was suggesting in post 2:
If you go with a true neutral deity for your cleric, you could get Turn Undead, though. Having that plus Rebuke Undead should give you double the normal number of Turning attempts, letting you get alot more mileage out of Divine Metamagic. Things like Extra Turning would apply to both classes, also.

#18
tonymitsu
Dec 24, 2008 9:13:36 *scratch head*

Wow... this is a wierd one...
Unless someone knows of something we'll probably need a ruling.

DN seems to create some kind of loophole because it specifically grants Rebuke without actually requiring you to be evil.

Well... as a Sorc//Wiz you get two separate spell lists... which would imply that you have two separate caster level progressions...
What if you prestige out on one side, what are the rules on PrC that call for caster level checks? Do you use the highest caster level you have, or the side that qualified for the class in the first place?

If the answer is "yes you have two caster level progressions", is there a rule that stops someone from going Cleric//Cleric and getting two spell lists and 4 domains?
As illogical as it sounds that would imply that you can be true neutral and turn on one side and rebuke on the other.

If the answer to the above is "no you have one caster level progression regardless of how many divine/arcane classes you take on either side" then as a GM I would say, "Class abilities are granted only once. Since a cleric can turn or rebuke and not have both it is the same ability that just produces different results. Thus gaining Rebuke from DN would preclude you from gaining turning as a cleric."

But like I said, we'd probably need a ruling.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jasper1972 Dec 22, 2008 11:49:30	Howdy, First time posting to the boards. Forgive the newb-ness. My DM is running a campaign, heading towards epic level, starting at 5th (going to 20th or so). We're playing dual classed characters, and the party is neutral or good. I'm wanting to play the undead controlling character, and Dread Necromancer looked like exactly what I was looking for (the black sheep of the party). However, I'm going back and forth on what the other class should be, and what my progression track should be. I've considered Bard, Sorcerer, and Hexblade, as they all rely on the same base stats that the Dread Necromancer does (Dex and Cha, mostly). We're using a 32 point stat build system, and I'm looking to optimize the stats where possible. I'm envisioning someone who hangs back and lets his undead do his fighting for him (though how that'll work at 5th level, I'm not quite sure). For prestige classes, I've been thinking about Pale Master and/or True Necromancer. Last question, when is controlling your undead a standard action? When you first give them orders? When you change their orders? Every round that they're there (which, I imagine, would seriously hamper your ability to cast other spells). Does it matter if the undead is summoned or animated or rebuked (whether it's a standard action to control them)? Any suggestions/tips/threads I should have read before posting this? Thanks!
#2 phaedrusxy Dec 22, 2008 12:27:45	There is no such thing as Duel classing, unless you're playing a 2nd edition (or earlier?) game. You must be talking about gestalt. I'd suggest cleric for the other class, with a focus on buffing via Divine Metamagic: Persistent, or DMM: Quicken. True Necro should be an illegal class in gestalt, as it is duel progression. Undead controlled via Animate Dead respond to verbal commands, and talking is a free action. Rebuked/Commanded undead require a standard action. I think this should only apply when you want to change the commands they're following, though. Archivist might be another class to consider gestalting with, since you'll get Rebuke Undead to fuel your DMM from Dread Necro. If you go with a true neutral deity for your cleric, you could get Turn Undead, though. Having that plus Rebuke Undead should give you double the normal number of Turning attempts, letting you get alot more mileage out of Divine Metamagic. Things like Extra Turning would apply to both classes, also.
#3 jasper1972 Dec 22, 2008 13:35:02	Yeah, you're right (feelin sheepish), I meant gestalt. The Dread Necromancer already has the Rebuke Undead feat if I recally correctly. If my other class was a cleric, how would that work? Would I be able to control twice as many undead? Thanks for the reply.
#4 phaedrusxy Dec 22, 2008 13:43:16	The Dread Necromancer already has the Rebuke Undead feat if I recally correctly. If my other class was a cleric, how would that work? Would I be able to control twice as many undead? The best answer is... ask your DM. If you have both Turn Undead AND Rebuke Undead, you should almost certainly get them as separate abilities, with a total of twice the normal number of Turn/Rebuke attempts. If you get Rebuke from two classes... it isn't as clear, especially in gestalt...
#5 phoenix00 Dec 22, 2008 13:56:01	Another good option for the other side is binder (especially if you take a level of cleric for turn undead to compliment the rebuke undead, and then take tenebrous which boosts both turn and rebuke undead.) Sure archivist would be better due to DMM, but binder is flavorful and easy on the book keeping once you have the build done.
#6 almagest Dec 22, 2008 14:14:35	The best answer is... ask your DM. If you have both Turn Undead AND Rebuke Undead, you should almost certainly get them as separate abilities, with a total of twice the normal number of Turn/Rebuke attempts. If you get Rebuke from two classes... it isn't as clear, especially in gestalt... I would say that with two class features that are exactly the same, you choose the better of the two, like with HP, BAB, saves, etc. If they're similar, but not the same (arcane spontaneous/vancian casting, turn/rebuke undead, etc.), you get both. It's probably up to the DM, though, like you said.
#7 jasper1972 Dec 22, 2008 19:36:51	Another good option for the other side is binder (especially if you take a level of cleric for turn undead to compliment the rebuke undead, and then take tenebrous which boosts both turn and rebuke undead.) Sure archivist would be better due to DMM, but binder is flavorful and easy on the book keeping once you have the build done. What is tenebrous? I can't find that. Is that a feat?
#8 rebel7284 Dec 22, 2008 20:12:00	It's a vestige a binder can bind. Basically vestiges are aspects of extraplanar beings that give you class features. They are specific to binders.
#9 jimmynids Dec 22, 2008 21:21:35	Yeah, you're right (feelin sheepish), I meant gestalt. The Dread Necromancer already has the Rebuke Undead feat if I recally correctly. If my other class was a cleric, how would that work? Would I be able to control twice as many undead? Thanks for the reply. Rebuke Undead stacks with Rebuke Undead. Cleric specifically says you must pick one and turn/rebuke was ruled if you have one you cannot have the other, they are mutually exclusive. If you have rebuke from 2 sources, the levels stack, however you can only gain 1 effective rebuking level per level when gestalting because you gain the benefits of any class features or abilities once. Example is if you were a gestalt sorcerer wizard, you dont have second level casting, you have 1st wizard and 1st sorcerer and they have 2 separate spell lists. If you took rogue and assassin, you could take the levels so that you gain 1d6 sneak attack every level, but if you would get 1d6 from both classes at the same time, you only get 1d6 not 2d6. Dread Necromancer and Cleric is a waste as you cannot control more undead this way, Binder is a good idea, and prestige into Anima Mage for full Binding and Spellcasting. Alternatively you could go with Dread Necro and Wizard into Ultimate Magus. Or Dread Necro 20 and Binder 20. I like the whole DN20 cause you get (4+CHA)*Your DN level in undead control, so you would have the potential to get 300HD of undead control by 20, with a +6 item, +5points from level ups and a +5 CHA Tome with a base CHA 18. On top of this you will be a binding beast. Avoid dual progression prestiges, you prolly want at least DN 20. OOH! Rogue 20! You are now a DN20 with improved evasion, 10d6 sneak attack on spells, cannot be flanked, and can bluff/tumble/diplomacy anything and has nice rogue tricks with DR from DN... fun stuff! Lotsa ideas others will say are better but there is a few simple ones here that work nicely. Gestalt Rules: When you gain the same feature from 2 sources, pick the better of the 2 Take the highest saves of both classes, as well as HD, skill points, BAB, only one set of spells per day(assuming both classes add spells per day to the same class spell pool) otherwise(incase of arcane and divine or spontaneous and prepared) gain a spell level of each class. Remember, do what makes you happy, what you think you will enjoy, not what we say to because we like it or think its the best.
#10 phoenix00 Dec 23, 2008 2:02:12	Binders allow you to bind vestiges, effectively you are making deals with spirits, devils, demons, angels, and other beings and gaining part of their powers in return for them to "feel part of the material world." Tenebrous, the Shadow that was is actually an imprint from the Demon Orcus. Orcus for a time assumed true godhood before he was betrayed by the Drow Demigod Kiaransalee. Somehow part of Orcus survived this betrayl but he was a shadow of what he once was, and due to the magic of Kiaransalee was forgotten by mortal men (and thus loss even more power for he wasn't worshipped.) He changed his name to Tenebrous as a means of hiding. Tenebrous trying to regain all his powers began on a secret quest. He was stopped by adventurers and he was destroyed again. He was then resurrected but during the resurrection process he lost his divinity and was a normal demon prince. ------ A binder binds with the shadow of the shadow of Orcus's original divinity. ------ Tenebrous when bind gives you a bonus to your turn/rebuke level equal to your binding level. Ability to create a permanent deeper darkness ability which you can suppress/create at will. As well the ability to always see in darkness even your own darkness. The flicker shadow mystery a few times per day.
#11 jameswilliamogle Dec 23, 2008 2:08:17	A Dread Necromancer 20 // Paladin of Tyranny (or Slaughter) 20 would be both fun and flavorful (and simple). Paladin of Tyranny (and Slaughter) is a base class with some minor modifications from the Paladin found in Unearthed Arcana or here.
#12 jaronk Dec 23, 2008 2:51:08	Well, the build I've been wanting to do for a while (and note that Anima Mage is not recommended for Gestalt, so ask your DM on this one, plus it's using the Divine adaptation for Anima Mage) is this: Dread Necromancer 20//Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Tenebrous Apostate 5. Note that Tainted Sorcerer should be taken as soon as you can afford an item that gives Moment of Perfect Mind and have a high enough concentration check to always pass the save to not take more levels in the class. It's brutal. 16th level Binding (with max level vestiges), 19th level Archivist casting (using taint for your casting stat, so no need to keep a high Int or Wis), free metamagics all day long as long as you're binding Naberius on Archivist spells, free material components all day long on Archivist spells, 20th level Dread Necromancer casting, SAD around Charisma (though Con is nice too), the ability to AoE burst heal all undead in the area easily, access to nearly every spell in the game (and certainly all the good ones), free self healing in addition to being able to persist various healing spells, AoE buffs combined with undead minions, free access to nearly every crafting feat when you want them... the works. Or, if you prefer, swap Tenebrous Apostate for Runesmith, and be a Gold Dwarf. You'll have to bind Sovok all the time for Heavy Armor proficiency and lose 5 levels of binding, plus the AoE burst heals, but you gain the ability to craft runes of persistant spells and give them to your minions or party mates, plus you'll get spell like abilities of spells with exp costs (True Creation!). Fun stuff. ...of course, if that's too game breaking, Binder 20//Dread Necromancer 20 works good too. JaronK
#13 jameswilliamogle Dec 23, 2008 3:35:57	Binder 15 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 // Dread Necromancer 20 is my preference for slightly more combat ability. A super debuffer: Dread Necromancer 8 / Shadow Adept 2 / Incanatrix 10 // Hexblade 7 / Paladin of Tyranny 3 / Binder 10 +17 BAB, dark companion / aura of despair (x3 w/ Focolar and Chupoclops) / Hexblade curse (greater) gives a net -12 to saves to nearby opponents, and a little smaller debuff to skills, attack rolls, and AC (I think one affects AC, afb). Lots of reduced cost metamagics to make that save debuff useful (twinned harms, for example, or repeating slay livings, or quickened mass harms after charging in to pounce some dude w/ shocktrooper). Makes me wish I knew DMs that did gestalt!
#14 phoenix00 Dec 23, 2008 3:44:17	If you do the binding route, try to get your DM to allow other spellcasting prcs to advance binding. For example if you can the fiend blood prc from heroes of horror to advance spellcasting you get 5 more spells of the illusion, enchantment, necromancy (things such as favor of the martyr are allowed), or fire descriptors. Balancing out your dread necro while still be full binding advancing. More fiendblood love here http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=873373 Heart ripper+chain metamagic vs finger of death. The entire party of monsters (though lower save dcs) or a single creature? Next level you get the spell that freezes everyone from frostburn.
#15 phaedrusxy Dec 23, 2008 12:51:42	Rebuke Undead stacks with Rebuke Undead. Cleric specifically says you must pick one and turn/rebuke was ruled if you have one you cannot have the other, they are mutually exclusive. If you have rebuke from 2 sources, the levels stack, however you can only gain 1 effective rebuking level per level when gestalting because you gain the benefits of any class features or abilities once. Is this from the gestalt rules? The FAQ? Sage Advice? What? I don't remember ever hearing such a "ruling".
#16 tonymitsu Dec 23, 2008 13:58:42	Is this from the gestalt rules? The FAQ? Sage Advice? What? I don't remember ever hearing such a "ruling". He's right about the cleric thing, a neutral cleric has to choose whether he turns or rebukes undead (just like whether he throws for cures or inflicts). He's also right about the gestalt class ability thing, as in the same ability from different classes granted at the same level doesn't stack. I'm pretty sure the sneak attack example he put there is exactly from the book. I don't recall any specific rulings, but it's a tough call the way I see it. I certainly wouldn't allow a player to put cleric on both sides of his build to get double the HD worth of undead and multiple turn/rebuke attempts. But what's to say he's not a neutral Dread Necromancer//Cleric who happens to worship Wee Jas and turns/throws for healing as a cleric?
#17 phaedrusxy Dec 23, 2008 15:03:47	He's right about the cleric thing, a neutral cleric has to choose whether he turns or rebukes undead (just like whether he throws for cures or inflicts). That doesn't prohibit him from getting the other ability from another source, though, as far as I know. He's also right about the gestalt class ability thing, as in the same ability from different classes granted at the same level doesn't stack. I'm pretty sure the sneak attack example he put there is exactly from the book. Yeah, I know that part. But what's to say he's not a neutral Dread Necromancer//Cleric who happens to worship Wee Jas and turns/throws for healing as a cleric? This is a specific example of exactly what I was suggesting in post 2: If you go with a true neutral deity for your cleric, you could get Turn Undead, though. Having that plus Rebuke Undead should give you double the normal number of Turning attempts, letting you get alot more mileage out of Divine Metamagic. Things like Extra Turning would apply to both classes, also.
#18 tonymitsu Dec 24, 2008 9:13:36	scratch head Wow... this is a wierd one... Unless someone knows of something we'll probably need a ruling. DN seems to create some kind of loophole because it specifically grants Rebuke without actually requiring you to be evil. Well... as a Sorc//Wiz you get two separate spell lists... which would imply that you have two separate caster level progressions... What if you prestige out on one side, what are the rules on PrC that call for caster level checks? Do you use the highest caster level you have, or the side that qualified for the class in the first place? If the answer is "yes you have two caster level progressions", is there a rule that stops someone from going Cleric//Cleric and getting two spell lists and 4 domains? As illogical as it sounds that would imply that you can be true neutral and turn on one side and rebuke on the other. If the answer to the above is "no you have one caster level progression regardless of how many divine/arcane classes you take on either side" then as a GM I would say, "Class abilities are granted only once. Since a cleric can turn or rebuke and not have both it is the same ability that just produces different results. Thus gaining Rebuke from DN would preclude you from gaining turning as a cleric." But like I said, we'd probably need a ruling.