race: elf (perhaps wood elf)
ranger (3)
fighter (2) for feats, thought about pally here
deepwood sniper (2) duh!
wildrunner (2) for scream +6 dex
order of the bow initiate (1) ?
feats that i WILL get:
deadeye (dragon #304)
woodland archer and prereqs (races of wild)
knowledge devotion
I am wondering if there is a better 1 level dip instead of OBI since I don't plan to use this guy as a sneakattack/precision shooter, but rather a back the heck up and full volley (outside of 30 ft). I also played around with grabbing 2 pally levels for smite evil, but it didn't seem worth losing the two fighter feats.
Let me know if you can think of anything i'm missing... will work out equipment and stats soon, my dex at level 10 will be about 24 according to progression and buy points and elf bonus.
Thanks!
-mal
Race: Fire Elf
Alignment: Neutral Good (Worshipper of Ehlonna)
1. Fighter 1 - Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow) (Figher bonus)
2. Fighter 2 - Rapid Shot (Fighter bonus)
3. Fighter 3 - True Believer
4. Fighter 4 - Precise Shot (Fighter bonus)
5. Fighter 5
6. Fighter 6 - Manyshot (Fighter bonus), Improved Rapid Shot
7. Pious Templar 1
8. Pious Templar 2
9. Pious Templar 3 - Weapon Specialization (longbow) (Pious Templar bonus), Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
10. Order of the Bow Initiate 1
Swap Handle Animal for Gather Information and Ride for Tumble using the variant from the Cityscape web enhancement for fighter. It's really solid all-around.
Also shooting things from within 30ft isn't advisable. I had a swift hunter in my party ones doing so... He could do a lot of damage when he got within 30 ft of an opponent. So after he shot an orc in the face, the orc would look at my partymates fragile bow, at his axe, at that thin piece of wood again and sunder the bow. Smarter opponents started sundering and disarming his quiver(s) of ehlonna. If you want a character that doesn't need the dm to be in a good mood for the character to work, dont try shooting stuff from within 30ft. If anything comes in that range, drop the bow and grap a more solid weapon. Therefore, stuff like skirmish and sneak attack doesn't really work well with bows and ranged precision is a joke.
In my experience, if you want to do some damage with an archer, make sure you get the following feats:
point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, weapon focus, weapon specialization, ranged weapon mastery, far shot and improved precise shot. After that make sure you add anything that lets you get more attacks, more attack bonus and more damage. Extra attacks are hard. Whirling frenzy was already advised above, you could also try to get the wizard to cast haste on you. Also, depending on how much you can spend on gear, check out the splitting enhancement from champions of ruin, it basically doubles your attacks. For attack bonus, max out dex, get improved rapid shot if you can spare the feats (probably not) and maybe get a martial discipline weapon (if your dm is okay with that, not all dm's allow martial discipline on a ranged weapon). For adding damage max your strength (often overlooked by people who create archers) and check out the gaunlets of war from complete champion. If your dm uses a deity that grants the war domain and has longbow as a favored weapon (like phaulkon), gauntlets of war is an absolute winner. Also important is the spot skill. The further your enemies are when you first see them, the earlier you can start firing arrows and the more they will have to endure before you have to switch to a melee weapon. Also having something like power attack and possibly some martial maneuvers when you do get in melee is a big boon.
Edit: I guess you could use knowledge devotion instead of ranged weapon mastery and weapon specialization if you can get the checks high enough. There are 6 knowledges you'd have to put at least some points in though, so thats quite an investment. If you want to go that route, check out the collector of stories skill trick and the vetaran knowledge feat from heroes of battle. Also dont forget about masterwork items, they only cost 50gp and add +2 to a skill of your choice. So you could spend 300 gp to get 6 encyclopidias or something.
Wood Elf
Patron:Ehlonna
Ranger 3/ Fighter 4/ Pious Templar 3
not in that order... last 2 fighter levels last
Feats:
Track(ranger Bonus)
Rapid Shot(Ranger bonus)
Endurance(Ranger bonus)
1st lvl: Education
3rd lvl: True Believer
4th lvl: Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow)(Fighter Bonus)
5th lvl: Precise Shot(Fighter Bonus)
6th lvl: Knowledge Devotion
8th lvl: Weapon Specialization(Composite Longbow)
9th lvl: Rapid Shot, Ranged Weapon Mastery(Fighter bonus)
10th lvl Woodland Archer(Fighter Bonus)
this gives great Skills(and Enough to make Knowledge Devotion worth it)... and the feats to make Archery good... later you could also take Horizon Walker or Wildrunner
You want a mount somehow. Even if you have to buy one. Then you want mounted/improved mounted archery. Now you can move (Way further than normal) and full attack. Your tactics in every fight are "Mount, run away from everyone while I shoot arrows at anyone who tries to chase us. If no one chases us, I will shoot at someone until they chase us."
I like Fighter 10 for archers, because it is so feat intensive. (One of the few builds I would play for a level 20 fighter is archer.) I also should point out cleric archers. The key to that being the zen archery feat, and clerics being better fighters than fighters (Or at least as good as).
As a fighter 10, you will have 9 feats. I would consider the following as the minimum archer feats.
Rapid Shot, Improved Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Improved Mounted Archery, Woodland Archer. Thats 7. I don't normally recomend weapon focus line, but the +damage is handy when making this many attacks. These also benefit from being a fighter, because now you can take them. Some of those probably have pre-reqs but I didn't go check. Also you mention deadeye in dragon mag as something you want. I don't know it, but thats 8 for you. Knowledge devotion makes 9.
Don't worry about sunders. No intelligent foe will do this.
- You obviously will buy an expensive bow. It will obviously look expensive. Any inteligent foe will want to sell this bow after they kill you.
- You are like 80ft away and probably flying on a griffon or something.
- There is a check involved, and this often leaves room for failure. If that happens, they just wasted their action.
- If you are seriously concerned buy armor spikes, and use them for the AoO provoked when your opponent attempts to sunder (Because no one takes the feat). Now they try it, and you spike them for their effort. Also, your mount can take an AoO on them. So they try it, and get bitten, and spiked in exchange for the chance to break your weapon.
Buy a +1 composite longbow. Throw some "Flames, Cold" or damage enhancers onto it because those are actually worth it when you make so many attacks around. Speed is not a bad investment. Don't neglect your strength score. Splitting is great if you can convince the DM it isn't super broken. (Double attacks, Sure why not). You want some way to go through DR. Adamantine Arrows help. I also recomend buying some "X Bane" arrows. Find out depending on your DMs "I always run zombie games" preferences. Or do it in game, "Hey lets go fight orcs" "BRB gonna buy some orc killer arrows"
I thought i'd suggest a build too
Human point blank shot
ranger1 track, precise shot (fav enemy arcanists)
barbarian1 (whirling frenzy)
ranger2 rapid shot, true believer
fighter1 weapon focus
fighter2 power attack
pious templar1 woodland archer
pious templar2
pious templar3 weapon specialization
pious templar4 improved precise shot and knowlodge devotion or ranged weapon mastery
ranger3 for endurance and the skill points or warblade1 for white raven tactics and iron heart surge and access to marshal discipline weapons.
EDIT: or a fighter feat variant rogue at the last lvl, that way you could get both ranged weapon mastery and knowledge devotion and the skills could help with the knowledge devotion, or at least with knowledge local for the humanoid targets.
I don't have access to dragon so i dont know what deadeye is, if your really keen on using it, maybe switch some stuff around and get it instead of power attack.
You can get the far shot feat from a helm of the hunter, it costs 9000gp and it also grants darkvision and a +5 to spot.
Krusks idea is of running away on a mount while shooting is a good one, but check with your dm if he's okay with shooting backwards. You could do it without the mounted archery feat, you'd just take a penalty on your attack bonus. It's pretty bad, but I wouldn't want to switch any feats for mounted combat and archery as it isn't a trick that can always be applied (most campaigns have some "indoor" combat too, which is also another good reason to have power attack as a backup).
Also I'm surprised that none of you like the wildrunner/deepwood build. deepwood gives 19-20 crits and a x4 modifier, and wildrunner adds +6 dex to the party. I think I will try to add whirling barbarian to my origional build, and see how that looks all calculated out.
Thanks to those with gear suggestions, feel free to keep those coming, I haven't yet done a full dig for archer gear.
Thanks to all that responded!
-mal
So after he shot an orc in the face, the orc would look at my partymates fragile bow, at his axe, at that thin piece of wood again and sunder the bow.
If that's a big concern, these things can help:
Crystal of Adamant Weaponry: This weapon augment crystal gives a weapon +2 hardness for 300 gp (least), +5 hardness for 1,400 gp (lesser), or +10 hardness for 3,400 gp (greater). (Magic Item Compendium 64)
Deep Crystal: This special material gives a bow 10 hardness and 15 hit points (instead of 5 hardness and 5 hit points) for +1,000 gp. Deep crystal is a mineral, and deep crystal armor “is considered to be made out of metal,” so you could plausibly argue for applying dwarvencraft to a deep crystal item. (Expanded Psionics Handbook 182)
Densewood: This special material gives a bow 8 hardness and 10 hit points (instead of 5 hardness and 5 hit points) for double the base cost. (Eberron Campaign Setting 126)
Dragonbone Bow: This gives a bow +20 feet range increment for +100 gp. I had trouble finding this, but Dungeon Master's Guide has the statistics for bone on page 144. The bow has 6 hardness and 5 hit points. (Draconomicon 117)
Dwarvencraft: This gives a weapon +2 hardness, +10 hit points, and +2 saves for +600 gp. It must be made of metal or stone, so I don't know how to get it on a bow, but a way might exist. (Races of Stone 159)
Enhancement Bonus: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points. (Dungeon Master's Guide 217 and 222 [see errata])
Hardening: This permanent spell improves an object's hardness by 1 per 2 caster levels. It's 6th level and requires a 50 gp component, so paying a 20th level NPC wizard to cast it costs 1,250 gp (and results in +10 hardness). (Spell Compendium 109)
Matter Manipulation: This instantaneous power improves an object's hardness and hit points. This is expensive, but the 15 cubic feet of material affected (at minimum manifester level) can be made into quite a few bows. (The best figure I can find for the size of the piece of wood you start with to make a longbow is 6 feet by 1 inch by 2 inches, so 180 bows.) You may be able to buy a piece of wood affected by the power for a fraction of the cost of an NPC manifestation of the power. (Expanded Psionics Handbook 115)
Soulforged: This weapon template gives a weapon +1 hardness and +5 hit points for +800 gp. It must be made on the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia by a native. The description notes that most soulforged weapons are made by the spirits of dwarven smiths, so it should be compatible with dwarvencraft. (Dungeon Master's Guide II 279)
For those that don't know Deadeye allows you to add Dex mod to all damage rolls on attacks within 30 ft. (I know I won't be in 30 feet every time, but it's a huge amount of damage for when 30 feat isn't that bad)
it would be great... but you need to either:
1)Keep OoTBI in for Close Combat
2)take Exotic Weapon Proficency(Greatbow)... and a single level of Exotic Weapon Master, and get Close Combat Trick
then i would suggest a build like this:
Wood Elf
Patron:Ehlonna
Ranger 3/ Fighter 2/ Pious Templar 4/ Exotic Weapon Master 1
Feats:
Track(ranger Bonus)
Rapid Shot(Ranger bonus)
Endurance(Ranger bonus)
1st lvl: Education
3rd lvl: True Believer
4th lvl: Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow)(Fighter Bonus)
5th lvl: Exotic Weapon Proficency(Greatbow)(Fighter Bonus)
6th lvl: Knowledge Devotion
8th lvl: Weapon Specialization(Composite Longbow)(Pious Templar Bonus)
9th lvl: Deadeye, Ranged Weapon Mastery(Pious Templar bonus)
Also I'm surprised that none of you like the wildrunner/deepwood build. deepwood gives 19-20 crits and a x4 modifier, and wildrunner adds +6 dex to the party. I think I will try to add whirling barbarian to my origional build, and see how that looks all calculated out.
i like Wildrunner .... for several reasons, it also gives you a boost to speed, which helps a lot ..... Deepwood Sniper is also very nice, but is 3.0 so i try to avoid it.... but if your DM allows it, great; it can be a very strong build with it:
you Build:
Wood Elf
Ranger 3/ Fighter 2/ Deepwood Sniper 2/ Wildrunner 2/ Order of the Bow Initate 1 .... is not a Bad build(actually it can perform quite well) .... however, you have added an additional Attribute to Boost(Cha determines how many Primal Screams/day you get), and the build develops a little later(Close Combat is at OotBI 2, and you wont qualify for some feats that require Weapon Specialization until much later) right now it is a little under-powered
Thanks to those with gear suggestions, feel free to keep those coming, I haven't yet done a full dig for archer gear.
At lvl 10 the standard is 49000gp so some nice cheap archer gear...
Bows:
A +1 splitting composite longbow will cost around 33000gp, so thats pretty much off limit, I guess a bow with a +2 or 3 bonus would be the max.
First of all, I already suggested the martial discipline enhancement from tome of battle, it grants a +3 to attack bonus at the cost of a +1 bonus. Only downside is, you need access to martial maneuvers and stances to use it. Warblade1 is a very nice dip for white raven tactics, iron heart surge and a stance to couple your bow with though.
Magebane from complete arcane is also a VERY good enhancement. At lvl 10, most of the dangerous things can cast spells or use spell like abilities. This enhancement makes the weapon act as a +2 higher than normal weapon AND do an additional 2d6 points of damage against the target for the price of a +1 bonus.
Be warry of the precise shot enhancement. It grants the same bonusses as the feat precise shot, but it doesn't grant the feat. It will not let you qualify for improved precise shot, while you absolutely need it to make a succesful archer.
Arrows:
Your not doing that much damage per attack so make sure you can overcome some DR by carrying enough adamantine, cold-iron and silver arrows with you.
Also if your shooting a lot of arrows per round the cheaper poisons might help you. Drow poison costs 75gp and has a devastating effect in combat, so rubbing that on some arrows could be very helpful.
Also make sure you colorcode the different arrows, so you dont accidentaly waste the poisoned arrows on constructs and the adamantine arrows on lycanthropes.
Armor:
A mithral chain shirt is cheap, and with dex24 you get the maximum armor bonus out of it. pretty standard here
Shield:
Depends on what skills you want to use and your strength. If you going for survival, spot and knowledges a +1 animated tower shield is nice, it costs about 9500gp. Make sure you still carry a light load when you use this. Otherwise go for the +3 buckler
Other:
Besides the otherwise standard str, dex, resistance, protection and natural armor bonusses there are several nice items to look out for.
Gauntlets of war from complete champion can give you an extra 3 damage per attack and costs 4000gp. That is a good deal! The downside is, your deity would have to have the war domain and you have to use that deities favorit weapon to get the bonus. Deities that have both the war domain and a bow as favored weapon aren't present in core. From living greyhawk there is phaulkon (CG) and from Fearun there are solonor thelandira (CG) and shevarash (CN). But check with your dm if he uses those deities.
Helm of the hunter grants far shot, a +5 to spot and darkvision. All nice things for an archer. It costs 9000gp
When you fire from a distance, it might be wise to have some defense against things that can retaliate from a distance. A ring of entropic does this very nicely when you combine it with an item that grants a speed enhancement. The ring costs 8000gp and you need an item for speed, so it might be a bit to expensive. If you'll have to choose between this and a helm of the hunter, take the helm of the hunter. Also a crystal of arrow deflection from magic item compendium could help with this, the least variant grants a +2 bonus to AC for only 500 gp.
Belt of Healing from magic item compendium is IMO one of the most overlooked items out there. It's super cheap at 750gp and can save your life when the cleric isn't right beside you. I use it on almost any character I play.
If you are going to use knowledge devotion, a crystal mask of knowledge might increase your damage output. It costs 2500 and grants a +5 enhancement bonus to 1 knowledge, so look at what kind of creatures you'll have to fight the most and buy a mask for that particular knowledge (like knowledge religion if the world is infested with zombies)
Last but not least a survival pouch from magic item compendium might be very good depending on your dm's style. It costs 3300gp and you can pull any out of combat survival stuff you might need out of it. But that's not what makes it good. When your bow gets smashed, stolen or whatever, you can just pull a backup bow+arrows out of this pouch.
Krusks idea is of running away on a mount while shooting is a good one, but check with your dm if he's okay with shooting backwards.
Facing doesn't exist in any form of DND 3.X outside of some brief mentions as house rules in unearthed arcana. Its no different than move action away and attack which is increadibly common in any game with an archer, and many games up to level 3 (When most spellcasters are pretending to be archers)
Krusks idea is of running away on a mount while shooting is a good one, but check with your dm if he's okay with shooting backwards.
Facing doesn't exist in any form of DND 3.X outside of some brief mentions as house rules in unearthed arcana. Its no different than move action away and attack which is increadibly common in any game with an archer, and many games up to level 3 (When most spellcasters are pretending to be archers)
By RAW, you are right. It's still wise to check with the dm though. The majority of the actual games aren't entirely played by RAW, most dm's want to create a world that's as realistic as possible. And face it, when you ride a horse it's hard to even look back, it would be impossible to twist half your body, keep the bow steady, aim and fire, while your horse is running in the opposite direction. By RAW you can do this, realisticly you can't, so the dm will have to decide if it's possible.
By RAW, you are right. It's still wise to check with the dm though. The majority of the actual games aren't entirely played by RAW, most dm's want to create a world that's as realistic as possible. And face it, when you ride a horse it's hard to even look back, it would be impossible to twist half your body, keep the bow steady, aim and fire, while your horse is running in the opposite direction. By RAW you can do this, realisticly you can't, so the dm will have to decide if it's possible.
- See Mongols
- If you spend 3 feats to do something, and your DM then says "Oh but you can't do it very well" that means its time to walk, not put up with their house rules.
- I have never seen or even heard of facing rules being used for longer than half a session. (They usually end halfway through session 1 because everyone says "This is tedious" and stops)
- Hard/unrealistic to twist while riding a horse? You are gonna be riding something like a pterrodactyl, a spiked tiger, a griffon or even a dragon. If someone's ability to turn and shoot is where your realism alert goes off you may need professional help.
Lastly, a quick google of the term "Use a bow to shoot backwards" gives the following video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLasu7S5tBU . If you throw the word mounted in that search term, you get the following article on wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot
2. Everytime anyone says anything in the sense of "you can't/shouldn't abuse surtain rules to that extend", someone here starts screaming to find a different group. The rules are open to different interpretations and the only exceptable one on this forum seems to be the one that gives the most bonusses to the thing your trying to optimize... that's not how it works in an actual campaign where you play with friends. If I would have to walk away from any game where houserules were applied I wouldn't have even been able to finish 1 campaign. By talking to the dm about it before you start abusing surtain rules you can prevent a situation where you have spend 3 feats to still suck. Therefore, my advice to speak with the dm before trying to pull it off, which is the only thing i said about it.
3. lucky you
4. It is totally realistic to ride a pterrodactyl, a spiked tiger, a griffon or even a dragon... Have you not seen avatar? Have you not seen Harry Potter? Have you not seen How to train your dragon? Did you not watch cartoons when you were a kid?
And lastly, that's actually pretty cool.
OT again?
I have narrowed it down to the following builds
2 ranger/2 fighter/2 deepwood sniper/2 wildrunner/ 1 whirly barb
2 ranger/2 fighter/2 deepwood sniper/2 pious templar/ 1 whirly barb
2 ranger/2 fighter/2 deepwood sniper/3 pious templar
My choice at this point depends on my GM talk tomorrow (apparently deities play a large role in the campaign so i'm going to chat with him about who i'd be templaring and if that fits his plan) I will likely skip knowledge devotion if i hit up the wildrunner so i can get some cha and con for the primal scream (duration is con and #/day is cha iirc).
I think the barb/wildrunner mix would be cool, so I think that's the most likely choice, I've never played a holy char so there would be quite a bit of digging for my pious templar stuff, but if the GM is interested in that i'm sure he'll help me out.
Thanks again for all the help, and if anyone sees anything that they think was missed feel free to chime in, the campaign won't start until the first week of january.
-mal
surtain rules
You mean these?
Scout 3/Ranger6/Cloistered Cleric 1
Scout 1: Point Blank
Scout 2: Uncanny Dodge
Scout 3: Precise Shot
Scout 3 Ranger 1 (4): Rapid Shot (Ranger Style), Favored Enemy: Arcanists (ACF)
Scout 3 Ranger 3 (6): Swift Hunter, Favored Enemy Undead, Endurance
Scout 3 Ranger 4 (7): Trade pet for Distracting Attack (ACF)
Scout 3 Ranger 6 (9): Rapid Shot (Ranger Style), Improved Skirmish
Scout 3 Ranger 6 Cloistered Cleric 1 (10): Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Magic Domain
Gets you a 5d6 skirmish (+2AC) after moving 20 feet, with a move speed of 40. Race is up to you still (I am assuming multiclass penalty doesn't matter if you don't level up). And you'll have 3 attacks (6/6/1 after rapid shot penalty) a round all with 5d6 skirmish damage due to travel devotion. And with the level in cleric you can actually use travel devotion a few times a day (2 turn attempt cost after the first).
Also, I love the energy bow... nothing beats force damage and not having to keep track of arrows for every shot...
www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20...
With the force bow and say a modest 22 dex, a bracer of archery, knowledge devotion, and point blank shot, you're looking at something like a +16/+16/+11 on 3 attacks, each doing 7d6+5+strength for an average around 32-35 damage each hit. Not bad at all at range... (2d6 force bow, 5d6+2 skirmish, point blank shot, +2 enhancement on force bow, plus strength since force bow is adjustable composite).
And you can still skirmish vs undead thanks to swift hunter, as well as anything that casts spells. You're a bit limited on constructs/plants/oozes still but you won't see too many of them at 10.
Plus, with the magic domain and a level of cleric, you are able to use any cleric or wizard/sorcerer wands.
Most of this comes from the Swift Hunter guide.
Why would you go for order of the bow initiate with that build? Wouldnt a ranged precision attack with 1d8 extra damage result in far less damage than a rapid shot full round attack? Or am i missing something?
When I posted my build it was a straight cut/paste from an older thread I posted it on. If not going above level 10, absolutely take another level of Pious Templar instead.
However, I'd also like to point out that Improved Precise Shot requires BAB 11, which will never be met if the character never goes past level 10. So take Woodland Archer at that level and you'll be golden.
Some tidbits...
If you're going to be firing from close range or in melee, there are quite a few methods to help with this:
1) You'll want to be able to threaten opponents to gain AoO's, and you'll want to not create AoO's against yourself when you fire your bow.
2) For efficiency reasons, you may want to always be able to use your bow - in melee and out. The reason for this is it's likely far more cost effective to dump most of your gold and feats into the bow tree, by also using it in closer combat when it arrises. The alternative is to have a bow and a melee weapon, but that means that both weapons will be weaker (gp and feats) vs. if you had speant most of those on just the bow.
-Exotic Weapon Master (1), or Order of the Bow initiate (2) give a close combat ability to avoid drawing AoO's.
-The Arrowmind spell helps a lot, especially if persisted or in a magic item. There's also an epic feat that does essentially the same thing.
-Ways to instantly change out your bow would help. There's a variety of ways to do this - often requiring combinations like gloves of storing, magic bows that change to a sword or staff, a harder bow that can be swung as a club (races of the wild I believe), magic item enhancements like calling?, feats, etc. Armor spikes is also a solid alternative - so you're always able to threaten. The hard part isn't drawing weapons quickly, but sheathing your bow - and doing everything with minimal actions such as free or swift/immediate actions. But there are definitely ways to do this. Something along the lines of fire your bow, then quickly switch it out for a melee weapon before the end of your turn. Then next round draw the bow, fire, then switch it out for a melee weapon. The goal is to keep your ability to threaten, and to avoid provoking AoO's - while retaining your standard/move actions for bigger things.
Ranged Threaten (Dragon Mag 350 I believe) gives you the ability to threaten enemies out to 15'. It is feat intensive, but may be worth it, if combined with the Exotic Weapon Master or OoBI ability to not draw AoO's.
There are a variety of materials that will harden your bow - most have been pointed out. But here's an even better method if sunder is a problem:
The material Aurorum (BoED). It magically recreates a sundered item into a non sundered state. It's a great addition, particularly for bow users who wind up in combat.
Regarding sundering: A comment was made along the lines that intelligent enemies won't sunder (because they will want to defeat you and take your weapon as a prize). I disagree almost entirely. Most of the rational for not sundering items is based on metagaming, where the DM doesn't want to irritate the players, and the players want to retain their pc's power level/wealth. Now, I certainly agree that a pc plundering for treasure wouldn't want to destroy valuable loot (as a general rule), and even the monster/npc might have similar inclinations. However, being that neither the pc's, nor the enemy know the power level of their opponent (without metagaming), I would think the number one priority is survival, followed by gaining treasure. This goes for pcs and the enemy. Additionally, most enemies are by nature weaker than the party. Let's put it like this (without metagaming, and assuming the role of the enemy monster/npc): If I were an intelligent enemy whose lair was being invaded by an apparantly strong enemy, I'd use every tactic at my disposal to make that enemy weaker, including sunder if that were an obvious benefit. After all, (normally) the enemy's primary concern should be survival, again with treasure being secondary. This would be compounded by the fact that it would be noticed if a bow was doing massive amounts of magical damage, beyond what a character could achieve on their own - thus making it a good target to at least consider if it came within range. From my perspective, it would likely be poor decision making on the enemy's part if they were to allow that bow to continue pounding them, if they had an easy way to take it out. (In a similar vein, not sundering a powerful bow - given the chance - would be comparible to say ignoring the spell casters bombarding you and controlling the battlefield, or choosing not to use your disposable magic items to save your skin, because you don't want to waste the money). In a metagame scenario, it makes perfect sense to not sunder, but in the pc/nps/monster role, sunder should definitely be on the table.
To give one last example: Imagine you were in a life or death situation in real life. If you had the capability to destroy a powerful, valuable (dollars) enemy weapon - wouldn't you take the opportunity if you had the chance - even if you might wind up winning the battle and taking the enemy's valuable weapon? Or - would you risk your life and not destroy the weapon (given the chance), because you won't be able to capture the prize if you somehow defeat your enemy? If we avoided sundering in real life, then we probably wouldn't do bombing missions, fire artillery at enemy vehicles, set anti vehicle mines, mine/depth charge ships/subs, etc. - for fear of damaging the enemies weapons/vehicles/tools that we may convert to our own use.
For the record, I realize sundering may very well not be a problem in your campaign (nor in most campaigns). You may want to touch on the subject with your DM. I'm just saying that there is certainly rationale for it. Personally, the campaign I run is heavy into "what's good for the pc's is good for the npc's/monsters". Meaning that the non pc's have similar motivations/sense of being that the pc's do, and are essentially "of equal importance" in the world overall (or at least they feel that way), so they will certainly use any trick they can to survive a battle.
[Aurorum is] a great addition, particularly for bow users who wind up in combat.
Aurorum is a metal, “luminous steel,” in fact. Are there rules that allow for a metal bow?
also i'm not worried about AOOs, I am planning on staying at least 30 ft from the melee (at the least). Still not sure if I plan to get to 30 exactly before opening up, or keeping back something more like the end of my first range inc. (deadeye existing makes me lean toward the 30ft mark, +12 dmg on each arrow is too good to pass up imo)
The force bow idea seems interesting, but couldn't it just be dispelled by an enemy caster? Also, is there a place where all the arrow types are sorted out with prices etc, or is it a muti book crawl for adam, cold iron, etc arrows?
Thanks again,
mal
Reasons people won't sunder your bow
- Your Bow is blind-eg out. They will want to pawn it. Its not metagaming at all to assume monsters enjoy obtaining magic items. See Dragon hordes, and orcs with class levels (AKA adventurers). Do your PCs sunder the obviously magic sword, and if they have how did the rest of the party respond? (Shouts of "You **** that comes out of your share" have been my experience)
- You are very very far away. They can spend a turn or two trying to catch you while you go further, and then trying to break it while being harassed by the rest of your party, OR they can ignore you for a few rounds, deal with your party, and then chase you down.
- No one has the feat. You get an AoO (Armor spikes/improved unarmed) and so does your mount.
- Hopefully you took a mount and it flies. Now you are super duper hard to catch. (IE 100ft above the person who is going to try to sunder your bow)
- There is a check, and it might not even work. It is an opposed attack roll that you are going to get +4 to. If they win, then they get to deal damage and hope it is enough to break your item. Its a lot of ifs, and mights in there for someone who is trying not to die to bother with.
All those combined mean no one will try to sunder.
Really its no more probable than someone trying to sunder your sword or axe in a traditional character, only you get the benefit of being super far away and a +4 to the check.
The force bow idea seems interesting, but couldn't it just be dispelled by an enemy caster?
What is there to dispel? It's a physical bow that shoots force arrows.
It's basically a +2 composite longbow with the force property on it, plus it adjusts to your strength and you can in a way power attack with it, and it acts like its bigger (2d6 vs 1d8). It's really too inexpensive at the price listed there.
Here it is from the link:
Energy Bow
Price: 22,600 gp
Body Slot: — (held)
Caster Level: 6th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 18) evocation
Activation: See below
Weight: 3 lb.
-mal
MACE OF THE
DARK CHILDREN
Price (Item Level): 8,012 gp (12th)
Body Slot: — (held)
Caster Level: 9th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) necromancy
Activation: —
Weight: 8 lb.
ROD OF
DEFIANCE
Price (Item Level): 7,312 gp
(11th)
Body Slot: — (held)
Caster Level: 10th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 20)
necromancy
Activation: —
Weight: 3 lb.
etc etc. As far as I know it doesn't mean that they can be dispelled, but when you cast detect magic that is what you see.
I didn't notice the fact that improved precise shot had a bab11 requirement. Now I remember why every archer takes it at 12. Maybe look into the guided shot spell? It cant be used by any of the builds above though.
EDIT: About the sundering...
When you fire from further away, chances it will happen are very slim. Also sundering the bow isn't that smart for enemies either, that's not really the big problem. A far bigger problem is that smart enemies go for the quiver. Even when they don't sunder it but just disarm it, your gonna be in trouble. But that just applies to archers stupid enough to come within 30ft of their enemies, like swift hunters, rogues or order of the bow initiates. I dont think that's what we were after here.
[Aurorum is] a great addition, particularly for bow users who wind up in combat.Aurorum is a metal, “luminous steel,” in fact. Are there rules that allow for a metal bow?
Good point - I forgot that.
Metal bows (including steel bows) are definitely possible, but not standard in D&D.
Google: "metal bow archery"
I wonder if swordbows/bow swords or whichever one's change forms from a bow to another weapon(?), etc. are made of metal or wood, or shift materials based on their form?
Aurorum could certainly be houseruled to work with wooden objects without upsetting the balance of things, but that of course would be a houserule. (I don't see much reason to only allow magic metal weapons to recreate themselves, and not wooden ones - unless the intent were specifically to leave bows in harms way).
1) A lot of this thread had to do with the character being within 30', including feat choices/suggestions and class features. That, automatically makes sunder a possibility depending on the DM's style of play. The OP may choose a flying mount, etc., but the 30' thing has been a recurring possibility. And, even if it weren't, there's always a possibility of being in melee with a bow - particularly inside dungeons/buildings, etc.
2) My position is it is totally metagaming to choose not to sunder for fear of damaging your potential gains. Sure most intelligent characters/many monsters, etc. hope to acquire wealth upon their enemy's defeat in D&D. However, to choose not to sunder, when that could be a strategic move to save your life, is likely metagaming. Again - IF it were real life, and you were likely to lose a battle (and your life) due to an enemy weapon, would you hesitate to damage that weapon if it could save your life - even if the weapon were near priceless? But my position, is the moment you decide that the treasure is worth more than saving your life (even if it's from the perspective of a non pc), should sunder be a strong possibility of saving it, then you're choosing metagaming over roleplaying. (And remember, the enemy is most often the ones with their backs against the wall against more powerful pc parties - once it is likely that the enemy is trying to fight for their lives, or protect their home (lair), then they should be using any tactic to survive - if they're intelligent). Anyway, I'm not saying metagaming is always bad. But I am saying metagaming is the likely reason to put the value of the object over the value of a character/npc/intelligent monster's own life.
3) I'm not saying sunder is a likely scenario, and I'm not limiting it to bows. I'm saying that it could be a valid option for a DM to throw at his characters on occasion. And it is far more likely with some (the minority likely) DM's than others. And, I'm saying it is more likely if the character is building around feats/class features that keep him within 30' of his enemy. (Scout, for example, IIRC has to move before his shot, which has the potential of putting him within Melee distance (and without a way to move away after the shot) every time he uses his Skirmish ability if he's not using other abilities (such as travel devotion) to avoid this situation. Not to mention if the encounter simply begins in close range. Lastly, one other very good reason why sunder should be in games (even if it's not the best mechanical option) is to keep the players on their toes...
4) Personally, I don't like overusing sunder for my own metagaming reasons, and for the same reason other DM's don't use it. I don't like to take away the player's favorite weapon, etc. that they've worked so hard for. However, I do use it on occasion to keep them on their toes, and to keep them from becoming complacent in assuming that a sunder could never happen. In the same way you might have a dungeon full of orc warriors/fighters/rogues attacking newbie players, then suddenly throw an unexpected slightly higher level (wolf-in-sheeps-clothing) orc sorcerer in the mix to keep the players on their toes, and remind them to not become complacent. Weak example, but you get the idea. It's a potential way turn the tide of a battle, from an otherwise less dangerous encounter. It's also one more "metagaming" tool for keeping player wealth in check.
So, my players should at least consider things like Aurorum, or harder wood materials, etc. if they plan on being in melee. There's a chance that their specific character might never face it - but odds are 100% that the sunder could happen at any time to someone in the party.
can you use psionics? if you can, this is a good option too
Also the argument about no one takes the feat... I'm pretty sure combat brute isn't that rare to have on a fighter and improved sunder is a prereq. Also in my group the disarming strike maneuver sees a lot of play. People use it to get iron heart surge when they dip into the warblade.
I fail to see how using a standard action to retrieve a quiver from a survival pouch is better than using a move action to retrieve a quiver from a backpack.
The rules don't address how you carry quivers. In real life, over your shoulder, on your belt, and attached to your bow are options. I don't see what stops you from having more than one quiver ready to use at a time.
On an unrelated note, I forgot this in my earlier post on increasing a bow's hardness and hit points:
Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points.
The psionic thing seems interesting, but wouldn't fit this campaign.
I believe I have settled on Ranger2/fighter2/deepwood2/pious3 after a discussion with my DM.
Backstory:
My character started out an elf archer who wanted to be the best in all the land, but something tragic happened to his family (that he doesn't talk about). He now lives in a self-built shrine to (made up chaotic neutral nature deity that has a longbow favored weapon). He has crafted thousands of bows and millions of arrows of all types in his 40 year exile from civilization. He is also CN, and believes only in the order of nature.
Thanks to all for the help, the items and exact feats will be ironed out in the coming week. I will likely post here with the final results in the unlikely case that anyone cares.
-mal
==+Aelryinth
note that aurorum is a metal and bows are made of wood, so are therefore ineligible for the benefits of making an item out of it.
==+Aelryinth
Not all bows are made of wood
www.articleclick.com/Article/Ancient-Ste...
As an example. Therefore if could be made of aurorum.
Though I'll be honest, I find the whole sunder argument silly. Because, is an enemy likely to disengage combat, leaving a hostile foe behind him, to go split a bow in half? Not likely. Not if they are intelligent as has been stated that this foe is
Sundering is ag reat tactic against archers...their weapons are vulnerable, they do hellacious amounts of damage, and they like to run away from you. Playing the metagame is stupid...leave the weapon intact and dying doesn't get you loot.
===aelryinth
Darkwood
This rare magic wood is as hard as normal wood but very light. Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type. Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood. The armor check penalty of a darkwood shield is lessened by 2 compared to an ordinary shield of its type. To determine the price of a darkwood item, use the original weight but add 10 gp per pound to the price of a masterwork version of that item.
Ergo, it's falling under the 'common sense' ruling. You could make a bow out of a non-standard material, but it would have to be a magical item from the get go to function properly, likely.
==Aelryinth
Very interesting...the SRD doesn't explicitly say bows are made out of wood. But, they also don't say swords are made out of steel, or axes out of both.
Ergo, it's falling under the 'common sense' ruling. You could make a bow out of a non-standard material, but it would have to be a magical item from the get go to function properly, likely.
Thats what I hit. I guess it falls into that realm of "What can you convince your DM to let slide?"
Some say all bows have to be oaken. Some say it can be made of pure, glistening, Fantasinium and shoot arrows made of rainbows, provided the mechanics stay the same.
Basically it would be something you could argue for, but you would have to expect, and be ok, with your DM not allowing it.
Very interesting...the SRD doesn't explicitly say bows are made out of wood. But, they also don't say swords are made out of steel, or axes out of both.
Ergo, it's falling under the 'common sense' ruling. You could make a bow out of a non-standard material, but it would have to be a magical item from the get go to function properly, likely.Thats what I hit. I guess it falls into that realm of "What can you convince your DM to let slide?"
Some say all bows have to be oaken. Some say it can be made of pure, glistening, Fantasinium and shoot arrows made of rainbows, provided the mechanics stay the same.
Basically it would be something you could argue for, but you would have to expect, and be ok, with your DM not allowing it.
India (I believe) was a country that used metal bows in a timeframe comparable to DnD.
Many modern bows are not built of wood at all.
So, in theory metal bows wouldn't be a huge strecth - though, as a DM, I'd require it to be specially made and have associated cost. (After all, I believe there are bone bows for example).
Isn't there a magic bow that transforms into a sword or something? I know there's one that magically turns into a staff (bowstaff I believe), and another non-magic one that doesn't transform, but is built more sturdily and can be used as a club (in races of the Wild). I believe there's a one that magically transforms a bow into a sword - which may be good enough to apply the anti-sundering material.
There may also be an enhancement that changes what an item is composed of. I swear I read it once, but cannot remember the name of it. Seems that it was from the magic item compendium though. Not sure if it worked to change wood to metal.
....
Sweet. Like I said, you'd have to make that arguement with your indivdual DM. I'm probably not your DM, and I'd totally let someone use the Fantasinim bow that shoots rainbows, so it wouldn't take much to convince me.
....Sweet. Like I said, you'd have to make that arguement with your indivdual DM. I'm probably not your DM, and I'd totally let someone use the Fantasinim bow that shoots rainbows, so it wouldn't take much to convince me.
Sorry Krusk - I wasn't intending on quoting you or responding directly to your post... I used the quick reply, and it apparently defaults to quoting when responding to a post. My post was more of a general comment on the subject.
Mongol bows are composite bows, and there is still wood involved.
Modern bows don't count. Magical realms don't generally have advanced composite polymers, or use compound 'dwarven bow' mechanical wheels to leverage the drawstring.
===Aelryinth
Modern bows don't count. Magical realms don't generally have advanced composite polymers, or use compound 'dwarven bow' mechanical wheels to leverage the drawstring.
===Aelryinth
I wouldn't go so far as to say modern bows don't count. The point is that bows can be made out of non-wood materials, and even metal. (India used steel bows in midieval times). (I believe there were metal bows (bronze?) in the very early A.D. era as well.
While they didn't have complex materials that we have in the modern world, they did have magical means, special (mundane and magical) materials, that generally exceed our modern world capability (material-wise) etc. that may be able to be substituted instead of modern materials. Dragonbone is probably a good example. Chitin might be possible, but I'd have to read up on it.
The point I was making with modern bows not being wood, includes simple bows - not just compound bows with pulleys, etc.
By the way - I did find some clear RAW metal bow information:
Races of the Wild page 171: Swordbow.
It essentially changes from bow to sword (or the opposite) as a free action. Key to the text: the bow is made of metal.
This does two things for us:
1) It gives us an actual bow item that aurorum can be applied to.
2) It gives us a working example of a metal bow. Granted it's a magical metal bow, but a metal bow nonetheless.
Extrapolating some...
Oddly enough the spell needed to craft it is shrink item. The only reason I mention this, is it doesn't imply anywhere that the bow is requiring special magic to enable the bow to function in a metal form, nor is any material conversion occuring during the reshaping. Instead, it implies that the bow works in metal form, but the magic is used to alter it's shape, not the material it's made from - nor whether or not the bow can function in metal form. Therefore, it's likely that non magic metal bows are also possible and useable in 3.5 D&D.
Combine this with the fact that metal bows exist in real life, in the appropriate time periods (albeit rare if not living in the right country/region), gives me enough evidence to allow non magical metal bows in 3.5 D&D as well (at an appropriately adjusted cost)
I knew that aurorum could be used with a bow RAW for some reason, but I couldn't remember why from my ranged combat notes. RAW, aurorum can at least be used on a sword bow, and the evidence shows it's more likely than not that metal bows can exist in D&D (alongside bone bows, etc.).
I'm still, also pretty sure there's a magical enhancement that will change the properties of a weapon material (such as silver to steel, etc.), while retaining its function. Not sure if it will work on a bow, however - have to find/read the enhancement.
I'm still, also pretty sure there's a magical enhancement that will change the properties of a weapon material (such as silver to steel, etc.), while retaining its function. Not sure if it will work on a bow, however - have to find/read the enhancement.
Metalline
MiC 38
+2 Weapon Bonus, allows you to change the weapon's material to a variety of rare metals (adamantine, cold iron, etc)
I'm still, also pretty sure there's a magical enhancement that will change the properties of a weapon material (such as silver to steel, etc.), while retaining its function. Not sure if it will work on a bow, however - have to find/read the enhancement.
Metalline
MiC 38
+2 Weapon Bonus, allows you to change the weapon's material to a variety of rare metals (adamantine, cold iron, etc)
Good find -
I believe that's the one I was thinking of. RAW, it works on a bow. RAI, not sure, but I think that it was likely intended as well. From what I read, it works on any weapon, not just metallic ones. It doesn't have any exclusions for wooden weapons, nor any limitations on wooden weapons behavior after they change to another substance.
So, RAW, this is definitely another example of a working metal bow (through magical means using the fabricate spell as a basis).
And, theorhetically, you may be able to apply aurorum to it on item creation.
Somewhat tangentially, Dragon #349 has rules for steel crossbows.
The default bow is made of wood...that's RAW. If made of special materials, the bow is almost certainly magical. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's going to be a house rule. Your own example of the sword bow is a magic weapon...and dragonbone bows are also intrinsically magical.
I have no opposition to the idea, but it's not in the core rules.
==Aelryinth
The default bow is made of wood...that's RAW.
Composite bows don't have to be made of wood. (They can be made of wood, and so are still eligible for darkwood et cetera.)
Composite bows are made of laminated horn, wood, or bone …
… and dragonbone bows are also intrinsically magical.
No, dragonbone bows are dragoncraft items, and dragoncraft items are not intrinsically magical.
Dragoncraft items are nonmagical objects made from specific parts of a true dragon's body.
Metalline literally says "Weapon" under the "What can this go on" section. You could put this on greatclubs, saps, whips, swords, whatever you want.
It then says "You change its composition to" and lists a bunch of special materials you can change the weapon into. It even says you can change the weapon into "Ordinary Steel". That to me strongly strongly implies "You can put this on wooden weapons". Why would you want to turn a steel weapon into "ordinary steel"?
This is one example, I'm sure there are others....
Eberron Campaign Setting, page 126. There's a picture of a flametouched throwing axe. The picture shows the entire axe is made from metal, including the handle. Go to the players handbook. The throwing axe (and all other axes) are shown with wood handles.
Now, the Flametouched iron entry specifically states that you cannot apply flametouched to an item without metal parts.
That shows two things:
1) Flametouched specifically cannot be added to items that have no metal, because it specifies that.
2) A throwing axe, which default has a wood handle, can also be made all metal (in this case by applying the flametouched Iron special material).
I feel it's safe to assume that any wooden weapon can likely be made from all metal. I think some combinations would be ridiculously heavy (such as an all metal polearm), but then again, real life folks don't have 25 STR either. But that's another topic.
############
Just to be argumentitive, but there is also a legitimate argument here:
Aurorum: No where in the description does it say it must be applied only to metal weapons. It does say it is a metal substance, but does not limit what it can be applied to.
To compare, the next entry of special materials (Book of Exaulted Deeds pg 38) is Frystalline. Frystalline is a crystal substance. No where in it's entry does it have any limitations on what weapons it can be applied to. It is assumed that it can be applied to any weapon, without limitation. None of the basic default weapons are made of crystal. So, using Aelryinth's logic, no base weapon could have Frystalline applied, because no base weapons start out as crystal.
So...
If you say Aurorum cannot be applied to wood weapons, because wood weapons can't be made of metal - you are also saying that Frystalline cannot be applied to any normal weapon, because none of them are made of crystal.
Or...
If you're saying Frystalline can be applied to any weapon because it doesn't state any restrictions, then Aurorum can also be applied to any weapon, because it doesn't state any restrictions.
One last comment - I find it to be much less of a stretch to have an all metal bow, than I do to have a crystal rapier, whip, chain, or bow. Yet Frystalline is assumed to work with any weapon.
There are many more example like these.
###############
And another side point - I think there's an entry somewhere about primitive weapons. That entry also likely uses non standard materials to create weapons (such as stone, horn).
I'm also all for common sense as far as wood and metal combined weapons. Pretty sure you could sub metal for the wooden parts of most melee weapons...the reason they are wood is because of their weight. But Medieval weapon smiths didn't have access to aluminum or titanium, either.
A bow is by definition in the rules made out of wood. A composite bow is by definition made out of more then one substance (composite, get it?). Composite bows are quite naturally different then normal bows. Pure horn and ivory composite bows would be hard to make, however...pretty sure there's almost always some wood involved, somewhere.
You don't apply aurorum to something, you make it out of it. You could make a mace out of aurorum, but it won't affect the wooden handle.
The language for Metalline is because it's going to largely be applied to common steel. Sure, the default you'd keep it at would be adamantine. But unless you want to pay +4k for your longsword, it was made of steel, and that's the 'default'. Cold Iron is somewhat less durable, alchemical silver does less dmg.
==Aelryinth