Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Salvag3 Feb 11, 2014 15:51:44	So my DM has allowed me to make a new Char in our 3.5 game. Since we are level 7 I asked to be a lizardfolk and decided to play a class I have never played before. Being the first Char I have played that has Natural attacks its raised some questions about them as well as unarmed strikes since its my first monk so here goes.   1. The rules say any disarm atempt you make when your not armed counts as doing it with a light weapon ( makes sense ) what happens if your char gets enlarged ? Do your hands become med sized weapons by default since you count as being armed ( because your a monk with unarmed strike )    2. Are natural attacks from med creatures small or med weapons, and as such if I take the Improved Natural attack do they count as a size cat larger for the use in disarms and/or if im enlarged do they go up in size ?
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 11, 2014 16:11:02	Standard disclaimer about monks before I continue. There should be similar disclaimers about Disarm as well.   Salvag3 wrote:
#3 StevenO Feb 11, 2014 16:31:20	1.  Just because you are larger your hands remain "light" weapons.  Now I'd need to check but I know getting bigger makes Grappling easier so I wonder if it shouldn't also make it easier to disarm a smaller opponent.  To put it another way I think that getting larger should make it easier to disarm an opponent but that would be because of the size increase and NOT because of the "weapon's" increased size.
#4 Salvag3 Feb 11, 2014 20:52:26	I guess thats the real question, is that it makes little sense to me because most of the rule book is written in a way to make me belive that unless it says so the examples its giving is based on you playing one of the Races in the PHB and they are all med creatures. So if Enlarging makes everything about you bigger your hands would be a part of that. If you are wielding a longsword as a med creature, and a mage casts enlarge on you the weapon grows with you and now your a large creature wielding a longsowrd so its a large longsword. why wouldnt you also shift your damage to the large monk table ?    in that same though, a dwarf thats got a short sword gets enlarged, now its large shortsword, so for a med creature it would be a long sword right ? so if he tries to disarm a med creature with a one handed weapon ie a long swords the two weapons being used are the same size. I guess im also drawing this from the weight of the weapons, a med short sword is 2lbs , and med long sword is 4lbs, if you enlage a shortsword its now 4lbs the same as the long sword, so since they have the same mass why would the new larger short sword be any less good at disarming than the longsword ?   And So I guess this all ties into the first round of questions, I know that unarmed attacks and natural weapons are not the same thing but if you dont have unarmed strike your unarmed damage will still go up when you get larger, a halfling deals 1d2 unarmed damage as a small creature, enlarged he deals 1d4 how would his unarmed disarm still have the same modifers now that hes twice as big. By the rules it dosent matter if a giant trys to disarm you if he uses his bare hands hes still doing it with "light weapons" it makes no sense.    example: A ogre tries to disarm a  3rd level halfing fighter wielding a two handed sword, so we end up with: Ogre's Score       - d20+8-4 total of +4                                                                                                                                                                                                     Halfling's Score - d20+4     total of +4    Im sorry what ? this really makes no sense to me, now this gets even more silly if the unarmed disarm attack is made by someone thats been trained in unarmed combat. I know its kinda silly to run into a Ogre monk in the wilds but what about a half giant monk ? now we have a " large Creature "  trained to use his body as a weapon and fight things armed with weapons still on even ground vs a creature that comes up to his knee. Also unarmed disarm gives the impression that you are only using one of your arms to try to disarm, why no change if your using both your hands to take someone's weapon away
#5 Salvag3 Feb 11, 2014 20:59:44	[quote="StevenO"] 1.  Just because you are larger your hands remain "light" weapons.  Now I'd need to check but I know getting bigger makes Grappling easier so I wonder if it shouldn't also make it easier to disarm a smaller opponent.  To put it another way I think that getting larger should make it easier to disarm an opponent but that would be because of the size increase and NOT because of the "weapon's" increased size.   You do, +4 per size cat diff, but in a lot of cases with things trained in unarmed it still seems broken in a way as to make unarmed disarmed not really a option worth investing in.
#6 Andarious-Rosethorn Feb 12, 2014 21:14:59	<span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">Salvag3</span> wrote:
#7 Slagger_the_Chuul Feb 11, 2014 22:13:03	Salvag3 wrote:
#8 Salvag3 Feb 11, 2014 23:30:30	[quote="Slagger_the_Chuul"]     Salvag3 wrote:
#9 Salvag3 Feb 11, 2014 23:51:41	As far as my build, im Multi Classing as a fighter, its a pretty magic devoid world so a fighter monk made the most sense, Lizardfolk ,two flaws + quickness trait, 2 levels of Monk and 4 of fighter to start this guy out with 10 feats at class level 6. Superior Unamed Strike, Snap kick, and Flying Kick are some of them, it allows for a Charge at +10 +10 that can deal 2d6 + 1d12 + str and 2d6 +1d12 + 1/2 str if they both hit.   I was wondering, Monk unarmed attack says that you can apply effects and enchantments that can go on either unarmed or natural attacks, so can you take Improved Natural Attack for monk unarmed strike ?
#10 Slagger_the_Chuul Feb 12, 2014 0:07:29	Salvag3 wrote:
#11 Salvag3 Feb 12, 2014 0:13:51	I see what you mean about the weapon mass, I just used short swords as a random example, and the logic makes sense to make things easy on the players and DM. I guess I just dont understand why my lizards natural attacks are med weapons if I use them in a disarm. But if I use the same hand as a unarmed attack somehow its less effective at the same thing. Or to take it a step father, a pure fighter lizardfolk using his Claws to Disarm with out improved unarmed attack and with improved disarm would be better at disarming than my lizard with Improved unarmed attack and Improved disarm using his unarmed attack.
#12 StevenO Feb 12, 2014 12:21:17	Andarious-Rosethorn wrote:
#13 Andarious-Rosethorn Feb 12, 2014 19:04:49	LOL sorry, I hit the wrong quite button, didn't even catch that until now. Didn't know that was even a thing. They were Salvag3 quotes not Steven0
#14 StevenO Feb 12, 2014 20:57:41	Just pointing it out.  I'll admit I'm not a big fan of this new board style and how things work.