Building a new Beguiler - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Building a new Beguiler

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
stsai465
Apr 15, 2008 11:02:11 I'm back. Our campaign is about to change (new DM) and now I have acccess to the class I originally wanted, so now I'm building a new Beguiler. Please have a look (yes, I've read the Handbook thread; this is for my own specifics).

We have access to all the central WotC books (the "Complete" series), but no campaign-specific guidebooks. EDIT: Forgot to mention; Psionics are off-limits.

Human Female Beguiler - CN

Char concept: Social beguiler; able to blend in anywhere, can be anyone (ie, big disguise). Manipulator, etc (which is kind of redundant being a beguiler).

Str: 6
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 18
Wis: 12
Chr: 18

Numbers were rolled w/ 4d6-1d6; stats can be changed 1-for-1.

Skills:
Bluff 4
Concentration 4
Diplomacy 4
Disguise 4
Forgery 4
Gather Info 4
Intimidate (cc) 2
Notice* 4
Sense Motive 4
Sleight of Hand 4
Spellcraft 2
Stealth* 4

*Campaign specific rules: Our DM has combined some skills into single skills. Sneak/Hide = Stealth. Spot/Listen/Search = Notice. You'll also notice the points don't quite add up; my GM wants to make it easier to cross-class on skills, so he's only charging 1-for-1 on cross-class skill costs, but we are still restricted to buying them up to lvl+1 in ranks.

Feats:
Spell Focus Enchantment
Greater Spell Focus Enchantment

Starting cash: 150gp.

Projected future: Beguiler up to 5, Mindbender 1, then Beguiler from there forward.
------------------------
Specific questions/thoughts:

* Would it be better to have Spell Focus Illusion instead of GSF-Enchantment at 1st lvl? Probably would get both eventually.
* Get chain shirt at 1st lvl? One of the class' advantages is armored casting, but w/ a Str 6, that might not be feasible. Would Mage Armor be sufficient to replace it at the early levels?
* Any other Prestige classes I should consider? I've heard some stuff about Shadowcraft mages or Incantrix (which book is that from?), and I recall another class that gets GSF for free (Archmage?). The one thing I recall is that this class lives-or-dies with saving throws, so boosting the spell DC is paramount.
* Thinking of getting Leadership Feat once I get high enough (if my DM allows it) with the thinking more like having "followers" spread around (ie, like an espionage network) as opposed to a traditional fortress power structure. Good/bad idea?
* Maybe get Force of Personality Feat; then I could rob my Wisdom and put them to my Dex and/or Con?

If there's anything else I'm missing, please feel free. Thanks in advance.
#2
jameswilliamogle
Apr 15, 2008 12:13:18 Illusions are slightly > enchantments, imo, since you can affect mind-immune critters. Its a close call, though, and depends on what you want. I love familiars, so I recomend the Obtain Familiar feat and Improved Familiar later.

Don't get Force of Personality. Your Will save will be enough.
#3
stsai465
Apr 15, 2008 14:01:46 I've not been a fan of familiars; they always struck me as a quick way to hose a wizard (ie, an easy target). What benefits do a familiar give a beguiler these days?

On Force of Personality; my thinking is if I get it, I can drop my Wisdom a lot (ie, 6 or so), then take those points and pump my Con and Dex. Other than skills (which I don't think I have many that apply), where would a low-Wisdom hurt me if I take FoP (so Will save would be my Chr bonus instead of my Will bonus/penalty)?
#4
jameswilliamogle
Apr 15, 2008 14:50:46
I've not been a fan of familiars; they always struck me as a quick way to hose a wizard (ie, an easy target). What benefits do a familiar give a beguiler these days?

Perhaps you should check out this link :D.
#5
ninjarabbit
Apr 15, 2008 15:46:26
I've not been a fan of familiars; they always struck me as a quick way to hose a wizard (ie, an easy target). What benefits do a familiar give a beguiler these days?

For starters your familiar will have all the skill points that you do. Secondly the familiar can give you an extra roll on notice/knowledge checks or use the aid another action to give you +2 to many of your skill checks.
#6
streetshaman
Apr 15, 2008 15:58:45 The raven for Beguilers is a nice roleplay based familiar (ravens are often tricksters in traditional mythology) and have the advantage of speaking a language so they can use the UMD skill if you have it and assist in the aural aspects of illusions. Plus it flys and is small for travel and hiding.
#7
stsai465
Apr 16, 2008 9:17:36 Regarding the familiar; what happens when it gets killed? In older versions of D&D, I recall harsh penalties like permanent losses to stats, HP, and sometimes lvls.

Any other ideas, other than the familiar? Comments about armor, stats, feats or PrCs?
#8
jameswilliamogle
Apr 16, 2008 10:19:40
Regarding the familiar; what happens when it gets killed? In older versions of D&D, I recall harsh penalties like permanent losses to stats, HP, and sometimes lvls.

You lose 200 xp per Sorcerer level. You have none, ergo no penalty other than it takes longer than a year to get a new one. Also, the XP loss is in the Wizard description, not the Familiar Ability section, so the feat doesn't grant the penalty.

Forget Force of Personality. -2 to your best stat isn't that big of a deal. Besides, if you PrC into some arcane stuff, it will get really strong really rapidly.

Mindbender for 1 level, taking the Mindsight feat (Lords of Madness) is wicked good.

Shadowcraft Mage along with Shadow Adept are both strong. ScM can become broken. There's a whole handbook for the class currently on the first page of this forum.
#9
stsai465
Apr 16, 2008 10:33:27 Thanks; I'm not sure my DM will allow LoM or ScM (from RoS), but I will certainly try.

My idea of Force of Personality isn't the -2 to Will though. Here was my thinking. If I took FoP, I could jigger my stats as such:
Str: 6
Dex: 18 <-- add 4
Con: 16 <-- add 2
Int: 18
Wis: 6 <--- drop 6
Chr: 18

then my Will save gets the +4 mod, and I get the extra Dex and Con with minimal loss. I'm guessing that if my Wisdom no longer contributes to my Will save, it becomes a new dump-stat (I think; I could be missing something).
#10
indeterminate
Apr 16, 2008 10:40:50 I do notice one important omission from your build: where's the UMD? That skill is far too useful to go without max ranks in.
#11
stsai465
Apr 16, 2008 10:57:51
I do notice one important omission from your build: where's the UMD? That skill is far too useful to go without max ranks in.

I actually tried looking into this last night. I didn't see how magic items are restricted (ie, Wand of Cure Light Wounds only usable by cleric or something like that?). We've been playing restrictions up to this point, so I'm assuming that they are legit.

If so, then yeah, I can see that I need to put UMD in there and delete another skill.
#12
jameswilliamogle
Apr 16, 2008 11:02:30
I do notice one important omission from your build: where's the UMD? That skill is far too useful to go without max ranks in.

True that. Should be maxed out.

I'd just dump the Wis anyways.

Even 1 level of Mindbender is a good investment without Mindsight. Telepathy is great for party coordination.

I'm playing a low-level Beguiler right now in the Shackled City adventure path, but doubt I'll be able to do that much. My plan is to take all 4 relevant spell foci, and since its not setting specific I may or may not take Shadow Adept (I have to run it by the DM). I'm avoiding ScM cheese, mainly b/c I don't want power creep to mess up the game, and the other players aren't optimizers, regardless.

My save DCs for L1 spells is a 17 for illusions already at L2 (+1 feat, +4 Int, +1 level, sometimes an additional +1 for catching the enemy flatfooted); not sure how far I want to push that.

BTW, it may seem redundant w/ Beguiler abilities, but the Fey Heritage line of feats, as I've seen before, is wicked good on a Cha-based character. They may only be 1/day, but the scaling DCs are so freakin' good. I've taken Fey Heritage and Fey Power, and expect to be taking Fey Presence and Legacy later.
#13
streetshaman
Apr 16, 2008 12:20:18 If you are playing a non-Good Beguiler, definately take the 1 level dip into Mindbender and get the Mindsight feat if you can. This can help with your Advanced Learning if you take it at 6th level to allow you higher level advanced learning spells at a good time in your career. Since you are taking points in intimidation, this should be easy to meet the reqs and blends well with a social Beguiler.

If you are playing a Good beguiler, I highly recommend the Nymph's Kiss feat from Book of Exalted Deeds. +2 to all Charisma based skills and an extra skill point per level works well with a Beguiler.

If you would like a level dip for Advanced Learning stall; go Visionary Seeker from the Planar Handbook at sixth level. The benefits are a +2 reflex save (not bad) and a +1 to Div spealls (so-so). This is one of the few classes that can 1 level dip and let you keep your caster level intact without a bunch of crazy reqs.

Also I wouldn't get too comfy with the advantages from feints as you will never want to be on the front line feinting. Stay back and charm/battle control/buff/debuff. As mentioned in one of the beguiler's guides; you should get so good at hiding and disguising that even your party doesn't know who/what/where you are ;)

Lastly, regardless of Good or not, the Gnome race opens up the before mentioned Shadowcraft Mage. Even if you don't cheese out on class, it is great to be small and most Gnome races will help the Beguiler.

Examples:

Generic Gnome: +1 Illusions
Whisper Gnome: 30' move, silence spell like ability
#14
stsai465
Apr 18, 2008 11:35:45 OK, revised:

Str: 6
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 18
Wis: 8
Chr: 18

(We're basically counting on the class' base Will save to be sufficient).

Dropping Forgery for UMD.

My DM has said he wants to avoid Mindsight for now, but says he will reconsider it when/if the campaign gets closer to 6th lvl.

Feats:
1st Spell Focus Enchantment
1st Fey Heritage
3rd Spell Focus Illusion
6th Fey Power or Mindsight (if my DM relents)
9th Greater Spell Focus Illusion or Enchantment

Some other feats I'm considering are Unsettling Enchantment and Heighten Spell. The Fey line of feats, I'm mixed on. I suppose having a handful more spells would be nice though having toughened skin I'm not sure buys much given that this character ideally shouldn't be mixing it up w/ the meleers.

Probably not going to plan further than this as it's uncertain if the campaign will even get that far and lot of advanced planning depends on what kind of equipment ends up dropping.

EDIT: I seem to remember a set of Feats from Song & Silence called Trustworthy, Friendly (?), then Alluring (which required the 1st 2 as prereqs). I can't find them in the "Complete 3.5" series. Did they take those out? Also, are they worth building to? Alluring had the +2 to DC for verbal charms, but having to spend 2 additional feats is pretty steep (though to be fair, you got quite a bit of skill buffs to Diplomacy, Gather Info and Intimidate IIRC).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 stsai465 Apr 15, 2008 11:02:11	I'm back. Our campaign is about to change (new DM) and now I have acccess to the class I originally wanted, so now I'm building a new Beguiler. Please have a look (yes, I've read the Handbook thread; this is for my own specifics). We have access to all the central WotC books (the "Complete" series), but no campaign-specific guidebooks. EDIT: Forgot to mention; Psionics are off-limits. Human Female Beguiler - CN Char concept: Social beguiler; able to blend in anywhere, can be anyone (ie, big disguise). Manipulator, etc (which is kind of redundant being a beguiler). Str: 6 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 18 Wis: 12 Chr: 18 Numbers were rolled w/ 4d6-1d6; stats can be changed 1-for-1. Skills: Bluff 4 Concentration 4 Diplomacy 4 Disguise 4 Forgery 4 Gather Info 4 Intimidate (cc) 2 Notice* 4 Sense Motive 4 Sleight of Hand 4 Spellcraft 2 Stealth* 4 Campaign specific rules: Our DM has combined some skills into single skills. Sneak/Hide = Stealth. Spot/Listen/Search = Notice. You'll also notice the points don't quite add up; my GM wants to make it easier to cross-class on skills, so he's only charging 1-for-1 on cross-class skill costs, but we are still restricted to buying them up to lvl+1 in ranks. Feats: Spell Focus Enchantment Greater Spell Focus Enchantment Starting cash: 150gp. Projected future: Beguiler up to 5, Mindbender 1, then Beguiler from there forward. ------------------------ Specific questions/thoughts: Would it be better to have Spell Focus Illusion instead of GSF-Enchantment at 1st lvl? Probably would get both eventually. * Get chain shirt at 1st lvl? One of the class' advantages is armored casting, but w/ a Str 6, that might not be feasible. Would Mage Armor be sufficient to replace it at the early levels? * Any other Prestige classes I should consider? I've heard some stuff about Shadowcraft mages or Incantrix (which book is that from?), and I recall another class that gets GSF for free (Archmage?). The one thing I recall is that this class lives-or-dies with saving throws, so boosting the spell DC is paramount. * Thinking of getting Leadership Feat once I get high enough (if my DM allows it) with the thinking more like having "followers" spread around (ie, like an espionage network) as opposed to a traditional fortress power structure. Good/bad idea? * Maybe get Force of Personality Feat; then I could rob my Wisdom and put them to my Dex and/or Con? If there's anything else I'm missing, please feel free. Thanks in advance.
#2 jameswilliamogle Apr 15, 2008 12:13:18	Illusions are slightly > enchantments, imo, since you can affect mind-immune critters. Its a close call, though, and depends on what you want. I love familiars, so I recomend the Obtain Familiar feat and Improved Familiar later. Don't get Force of Personality. Your Will save will be enough.
#3 stsai465 Apr 15, 2008 14:01:46	I've not been a fan of familiars; they always struck me as a quick way to hose a wizard (ie, an easy target). What benefits do a familiar give a beguiler these days? On Force of Personality; my thinking is if I get it, I can drop my Wisdom a lot (ie, 6 or so), then take those points and pump my Con and Dex. Other than skills (which I don't think I have many that apply), where would a low-Wisdom hurt me if I take FoP (so Will save would be my Chr bonus instead of my Will bonus/penalty)?
#4 jameswilliamogle Apr 15, 2008 14:50:46	I've not been a fan of familiars; they always struck me as a quick way to hose a wizard (ie, an easy target). What benefits do a familiar give a beguiler these days? Perhaps you should check out this link :D.
#5 ninjarabbit Apr 15, 2008 15:46:26	I've not been a fan of familiars; they always struck me as a quick way to hose a wizard (ie, an easy target). What benefits do a familiar give a beguiler these days? For starters your familiar will have all the skill points that you do. Secondly the familiar can give you an extra roll on notice/knowledge checks or use the aid another action to give you +2 to many of your skill checks.
#6 streetshaman Apr 15, 2008 15:58:45	The raven for Beguilers is a nice roleplay based familiar (ravens are often tricksters in traditional mythology) and have the advantage of speaking a language so they can use the UMD skill if you have it and assist in the aural aspects of illusions. Plus it flys and is small for travel and hiding.
#7 stsai465 Apr 16, 2008 9:17:36	Regarding the familiar; what happens when it gets killed? In older versions of D&D, I recall harsh penalties like permanent losses to stats, HP, and sometimes lvls. Any other ideas, other than the familiar? Comments about armor, stats, feats or PrCs?
#8 jameswilliamogle Apr 16, 2008 10:19:40	Regarding the familiar; what happens when it gets killed? In older versions of D&D, I recall harsh penalties like permanent losses to stats, HP, and sometimes lvls. You lose 200 xp per Sorcerer level. You have none, ergo no penalty other than it takes longer than a year to get a new one. Also, the XP loss is in the Wizard description, not the Familiar Ability section, so the feat doesn't grant the penalty. Forget Force of Personality. -2 to your best stat isn't that big of a deal. Besides, if you PrC into some arcane stuff, it will get really strong really rapidly. Mindbender for 1 level, taking the Mindsight feat (Lords of Madness) is wicked good. Shadowcraft Mage along with Shadow Adept are both strong. ScM can become broken. There's a whole handbook for the class currently on the first page of this forum.
#9 stsai465 Apr 16, 2008 10:33:27	Thanks; I'm not sure my DM will allow LoM or ScM (from RoS), but I will certainly try. My idea of Force of Personality isn't the -2 to Will though. Here was my thinking. If I took FoP, I could jigger my stats as such: Str: 6 Dex: 18 <-- add 4 Con: 16 <-- add 2 Int: 18 Wis: 6 <--- drop 6 Chr: 18 then my Will save gets the +4 mod, and I get the extra Dex and Con with minimal loss. I'm guessing that if my Wisdom no longer contributes to my Will save, it becomes a new dump-stat (I think; I could be missing something).
#10 indeterminate Apr 16, 2008 10:40:50	I do notice one important omission from your build: where's the UMD? That skill is far too useful to go without max ranks in.
#11 stsai465 Apr 16, 2008 10:57:51	I do notice one important omission from your build: where's the UMD? That skill is far too useful to go without max ranks in. I actually tried looking into this last night. I didn't see how magic items are restricted (ie, Wand of Cure Light Wounds only usable by cleric or something like that?). We've been playing restrictions up to this point, so I'm assuming that they are legit. If so, then yeah, I can see that I need to put UMD in there and delete another skill.
#12 jameswilliamogle Apr 16, 2008 11:02:30	I do notice one important omission from your build: where's the UMD? That skill is far too useful to go without max ranks in. True that. Should be maxed out. I'd just dump the Wis anyways. Even 1 level of Mindbender is a good investment without Mindsight. Telepathy is great for party coordination. I'm playing a low-level Beguiler right now in the Shackled City adventure path, but doubt I'll be able to do that much. My plan is to take all 4 relevant spell foci, and since its not setting specific I may or may not take Shadow Adept (I have to run it by the DM). I'm avoiding ScM cheese, mainly b/c I don't want power creep to mess up the game, and the other players aren't optimizers, regardless. My save DCs for L1 spells is a 17 for illusions already at L2 (+1 feat, +4 Int, +1 level, sometimes an additional +1 for catching the enemy flatfooted); not sure how far I want to push that. BTW, it may seem redundant w/ Beguiler abilities, but the Fey Heritage line of feats, as I've seen before, is wicked good on a Cha-based character. They may only be 1/day, but the scaling DCs are so freakin' good. I've taken Fey Heritage and Fey Power, and expect to be taking Fey Presence and Legacy later.
#13 streetshaman Apr 16, 2008 12:20:18	If you are playing a non-Good Beguiler, definately take the 1 level dip into Mindbender and get the Mindsight feat if you can. This can help with your Advanced Learning if you take it at 6th level to allow you higher level advanced learning spells at a good time in your career. Since you are taking points in intimidation, this should be easy to meet the reqs and blends well with a social Beguiler. If you are playing a Good beguiler, I highly recommend the Nymph's Kiss feat from Book of Exalted Deeds. +2 to all Charisma based skills and an extra skill point per level works well with a Beguiler. If you would like a level dip for Advanced Learning stall; go Visionary Seeker from the Planar Handbook at sixth level. The benefits are a +2 reflex save (not bad) and a +1 to Div spealls (so-so). This is one of the few classes that can 1 level dip and let you keep your caster level intact without a bunch of crazy reqs. Also I wouldn't get too comfy with the advantages from feints as you will never want to be on the front line feinting. Stay back and charm/battle control/buff/debuff. As mentioned in one of the beguiler's guides; you should get so good at hiding and disguising that even your party doesn't know who/what/where you are ;) Lastly, regardless of Good or not, the Gnome race opens up the before mentioned Shadowcraft Mage. Even if you don't cheese out on class, it is great to be small and most Gnome races will help the Beguiler. Examples: Generic Gnome: +1 Illusions Whisper Gnome: 30' move, silence spell like ability
#14 stsai465 Apr 18, 2008 11:35:45	OK, revised: Str: 6 Dex: 18 Con: 14 Int: 18 Wis: 8 Chr: 18 (We're basically counting on the class' base Will save to be sufficient). Dropping Forgery for UMD. My DM has said he wants to avoid Mindsight for now, but says he will reconsider it when/if the campaign gets closer to 6th lvl. Feats: 1st Spell Focus Enchantment 1st Fey Heritage 3rd Spell Focus Illusion 6th Fey Power or Mindsight (if my DM relents) 9th Greater Spell Focus Illusion or Enchantment Some other feats I'm considering are Unsettling Enchantment and Heighten Spell. The Fey line of feats, I'm mixed on. I suppose having a handful more spells would be nice though having toughened skin I'm not sure buys much given that this character ideally shouldn't be mixing it up w/ the meleers. Probably not going to plan further than this as it's uncertain if the campaign will even get that far and lot of advanced planning depends on what kind of equipment ends up dropping. EDIT: I seem to remember a set of Feats from Song & Silence called Trustworthy, Friendly (?), then Alluring (which required the 1st 2 as prereqs). I can't find them in the "Complete 3.5" series. Did they take those out? Also, are they worth building to? Alluring had the +2 to DC for verbal charms, but having to spend 2 additional feats is pretty steep (though to be fair, you got quite a bit of skill buffs to Diplomacy, Gather Info and Intimidate IIRC).