Building a Tier 1 Party of Gishzilla's - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Building a Tier 1 Party of Gishzilla's

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kell_kheraptis
Jun 28, 2009 22:22:34 As an exercise for a friend of mine, I decided I'm going to make a party of Tier 1 bad asses, but the only stipulations are 9th level spells and BAB of at least +16 (unless the trade off is REALLY good and they can DP themselves). Example of an exception to that rule would be a Cheater of Mystra (ironically, the chosen for my "cleric" in the party). The idea is to show him the pinnacle of optimization-fu, while at the same time giving him ideas on how to challenge a party of any power level, since if you can take on a party of Twice-Betrayer Cheaters of Smack, you can take on just about anything short of Pun-Pun. I'm thinking 6 total, in the layout of :

1 Divine Caster - Cheater of Mystra
1 Arcane Caster - Jade Phoenix Mage most likely
1 Dual caster/archivist - This one may be a dragonblood pool archivist War Weaver
1 Sneaky caster - Seeing Arcane type Unseen Seer
1 Bardic based caster - Sublime Chord builds welcome!
1 Druidzilla - Another easy one

That makes for a party of 6, synergy via the War Weaver and JPM for BC, the War Weaver and Bard for Buffing in combat (not to mention anti-casting), the CoM for just about anything, all of them capable for damage, and truth be told, all of them capable on their own, but nigh unstoppable together.

Go all out on this, Affiliations, Teamwork benefits, buying a zillion feats and retraining them, the works (IIRC there's like 23 if you get em all, for something like 100k, a bargain in my book). He also put in a request for a monk-type, which I saw as a Cleric/Sacred Fist/Divine Oracle with IUS/SUS/Monk's Belt abuse.

Some assumptions about this exercise :

1. All spells through various means exist as both divine and arcane.
2. Text trumps table. DM's might rule otherwise, but not for this exercise.
3. LA Buyoff in effect for up to 3 LA pre-epic, and bloodline levels are paid for as you level (meaning if you have 18,000 XP or more to play with in addition to level 20, you can add a bloodline for free, since it was paid for during play, as the bloody things were intended...no pun intended).
4. Will add to this as needed.

Let the games...BEGIN!
#2
Endarire
Jun 28, 2009 23:02:13 Sneaky casters like Unseen Seers can fairly easily get L9 spells but not a consistent 16+ BAB.

As for the arcane melee guy, he's akin to Hood.

Doubly Flawed Simple Nezumi
NG or CG Dragonborn Nezumi (Oriental Adventures) Barbarian1/Martial Transmuter5/Eldritch Knight6/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight4

1: {Aggressive OR Spellgifted: Transmutation}, Battle Jump, Leap of the Heavens, [Literacy], [Pounce], Practiced Caster: Wizard, {Quick}
2: [Power Attack], [Sudden Shift OR Hummingbird Familiar]
3: Travel Devotion
6: [Domain Granted Power: Time (Improved Initiative)], Leap Attack
7: [Cleave]
9: Arcane Strike
12: Combat Casting
15: Improved Bull Rush
18: Combat Brute
#3
jaronk
Jun 29, 2009 0:08:47 I don't see why you're worrying about BAB, at least for Archivists and Clerics. They've got Persistant Divine Power available anyway. Heck, if the Wizard wants to be a bastard he can take levels in Anima Mage, then cast Persistant Shapechange to turn into a Solar, then use the Cleric casting of the Solar to Persist Divine Power. Whee!

JaronK
#4
gorfnad_the_shiznit
Jun 29, 2009 3:40:32 Two gish bard builds with sublime chord that I can think of are
Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Bard 7/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3
Both get BAB 17 and 9th level spells

For a sneaky caster
Whisper Gnome with Dark Creature (ToM) and Shadow Creature (LoM) Templates. You said LA +3 pre-epic.
Rogue 1/ Beguiler 6/ Unseen Seer 1/ Beguiler 1/ Unseen Seer 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcraft 5
So it's BAB is negligible. This one's hide/ move silently checks are insane especially with HiPS and Shadowblend. Throw in the Dark Stalker Feat and this guy is nearly impossible to find. Hunters Eye + Craven will add nicely to the sneak attack damage. And then there is the Shadowcraft Mage goodness....
#5
syrazemyla
Jun 29, 2009 6:20:12 What about a psionic gish? Ranger 1/Psion 6/Illithid Slayer 9/Sanctified Mind 4 gets 9th level powers and BAB +17, and a host of other goodies.
#6
naldor
Jun 29, 2009 9:45:49 If I might suggest, I put together a rather nice Arcane Caster who can use Persistant Divine Power to get the BaB you want, and has a few other very nice goodies as well, such as casting True Resurrection in the middle of combat to keep the rest of the party on their feet:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1190944
#7
lormador
Jun 29, 2009 9:50:24
For a sneaky caster
Whisper Gnome with Dark Creature (ToM) and Shadow Creature (LoM) Templates. You said LA +3 pre-epic.
Rogue 1/ Beguiler 6/ Unseen Seer 1/ Beguiler 1/ Unseen Seer 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcraft 5
So it's BAB is negligible. This one's hide/ move silently checks are insane especially with HiPS and Shadowblend. Throw in the Dark Stalker Feat and this guy is nearly impossible to find.

I like it.

Since we're going this far, why not go all the way for an extreme undetectability build? Drop him undead to avoid Lifesense, give him Shadow Magic to cloak his illusions. If Mind Blank/Darkstalker etc. won't cover him from Mindsight, maybe Wish him immune or just keep him farther than 100', still Medium range anyway. He'll be flying, so Tremorsense won't reveal him.
#8
kell_kheraptis
Jun 29, 2009 10:27:01 Archivist 3/War Weaver 5/Spellguard of Silverymoon 5/Legacy Champion 5/Mindbender 1/Sacred Exorcist 1 was what I was thinking of for the archivist entry, as they mesh uber well with War Weaver, and Doc Roc has already set precedent for a divine caster getting in. That gish though looks pretty sexy :D I'm guessing the idea is using archivist's list and alternate spell source to port everything over to the wizard spellbook?

Ok, here's what I have so far :

Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/Divine Disciple 5

Archivist 3/War Weaver 5/Spellguard of Silverymoon 5/Legacy Champion 5/Mindbender 1/Sacred Exorcist 1

Wizard 6/Ruathar 3/Warblade 1/Jade Phoexin Mage 10

Bard 6/Crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Sublime Chord 2/Jade Phoenix Mage +8

Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10

Rogue 1/Beguiler 6/Unseen Seer 1/Beguiler +1/Unseen Seer +1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter 5

As I see it, all have a trick to get BAB, or raw BAB of 16+, all have 9th level spell capability, and all have plenty of versatility. Also, for purposes of this exercise since it's available from 15th level on, consider all to be Planetars :D As I said, if you're gonna go, go all out!
#9
Endarire
Jun 29, 2009 16:21:51 How does Archivist3 qualify for War Weaver? I see Human with Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, Enlarge Spell, and Sanctum Spell.
#10
Omen_of_Peace
Jun 30, 2009 7:10:38 BAB is really immaterial - everyone can get DP via a Ring of Spell Storing (have one cleric take Easy Metamagic: Persistent Spell just in case the DMM/spell level interaction is not clear).

So the Wizard should really be an Incantatrix/SCM or an Incantatrix/Io7V.

I'd include a RKV to provide extra turns to everyone via WRT (you know, in case the Planar Bubble is not enough).

For the Monk, there's always Monk 1/Erudite 19 with Tashalatora and Spell to Power.
#11
naldor
Jun 30, 2009 9:13:52 Not to toot my own horn too much, but I'd argue that the build I linked for the wizard would be stronger than either Incantrix / SCM or Incantrix / Iot7FV because of the Dweomerkeeper levels, allowing fun shenannigans like free Miracles / Wishes and the ability to cast any Divine / Wiz spell (Favor of the Martyr + Celerity anyone?) for no XP / Material cost, regardless of spell casting time. This would apply even for Epic spells if you ever got there.
#12
kell_kheraptis
Jun 30, 2009 12:18:53
BAB is really immaterial - everyone can get DP via a Ring of Spell Storing (have one cleric take Easy Metamagic: Persistent Spell just in case the DMM/spell level interaction is not clear).

So the Wizard should really be an Incantatrix/SCM or an Incantatrix/Io7V.

I'd include a RKV to provide extra turns to everyone via WRT (you know, in case the Planar Bubble is not enough).

For the Monk, there's always Monk 1/Erudite 19 with Tashalatora and Spell to Power.

That's what I was thinking with the Arcane God, who I believe was built by CantripN? I hadn't thought of combining White Raven's dance with the Synchronicity Shuffle though, that's sexy :D And we all know my views on StP ^.^

Naldor, how would that build look with Haluran Elder capped on the end? Similar concept to the Incantatrix, only with Sup. capability for the XP breakers.
#13
naldor
Jun 30, 2009 13:42:59 Kell, I'd actually say that Haluran Elder wouldn't add much to the build. The character already has spontaneous casting ability from the Uncanny Forethought feat, which works on a wider list than the signature spell feature would. The metamagic feat reduction would make the Spellcraft DC's to modify spells lower, but that character should have +50 spellcraft by level 10 or so, so it's not really needed, and he rarely actually prepares metamagic feats normally. Overall, I think the Iot7FV levels and their defensive capabilities add a lot more to the build, especially a gish who wants to not worry about other casters while he charges people with his thunderlance while riding a Phantom Steed.

And where are you getting (su) capability from? I didn't notice anything about that while glancing through the class.
#14
kell_kheraptis
Jun 30, 2009 13:45:17
Kell, I'd actually say that Haluran Elder wouldn't add much to the build. The character already has spontaneous casting ability from the Uncanny Forethought feat, which works on a wider list than the signature spell feature would. The metamagic feat reduction would make the Spellcraft DC's to modify spells lower, but that character should have +50 spellcraft by level 10 or so, so it's not really needed, and he rarely actually prepares metamagic feats normally. And where are you getting (su) capability from? I didn't notice anything about that while glancing through the class.

I was refering to the Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell ability. I may have gotten things tangled...got a lot of stuff going on at the moment lol
#15
elondir
Jun 30, 2009 16:37:34 I know it's not a +16/9th level spells, but how about 9th level spells/9th level spells? As in...

Half-fey Human Bard 1/wizard 5/mindbender 1/ur-priest 3/sublime chord 1/mystic theurge 9 advancing sublime chord and ur-priest.

32-point buy: STR 10, DEX 8, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 16, CHA 14.
After adjustments: STR 10, DEX 10, CON 10, INT 16, WIS 18, CHA 18.

Take Able Learner so you only have to spend 1 point for cross-class skill ranks. This comes in really handy in the Ur Priest and Mindbender levels when you have to max out perform and listen in a hurry. You could do Changeling as well but watch out for that -2 to CHA.

Has 9th level divine spells and 9th level wizard spells. Casts all classes at 20th level (Ur-Priest 10 + Sublime Chord 10). Take practiced spellcaster feats to boost your caster level further. Buy back your half-fey LA at levels 6 and 9 using Unearthed Arcana rules. Your BAB is crap at +8/+3 but that can be boosted easily. Also with fractional BAB you get +11/+6/+1 instead. Half-fey provides flight and lots of other useful SLA's. Grab a belt of magnificence +6 to compensate for slight MAD between WIS and CHA, and the INT for skill points.

EDIT: Add leadership and make your cohort a half-iron golem half-black dragon troll if your leadership score is high enough (he's ECL 17). Cure his half-golem insanity with a heal spell. He's nearly indestructible - rust and ability damage/drain are his only weaknesses, since he's immune to acid and fire, and all damage is subdual damage because of his troll regeneration, but he's immune to subdual damage because of his construct traits.

His average base stats (assuming all 10's rolled) are STR 42 DEX 12 CON 28 INT 2 WIS 8 CHA 2, so you'll need to give him a headband of intellect +6 and a cloak of charisma +6 to get him to just below average in these fields. If you use point buy I'd put most of your points in INT and CHA. He's your meat shield.
#16
kell_kheraptis
Jun 30, 2009 17:02:24 From now on, consider all characters to be Planetars, due to PAO capability. Thus only the DK needs a cleric base, and all will in a sense be MT's. That's a pretty wicked MT though, similar to the War Weaver one I built before deciding to make the ungodly host into "host" members :P
#17
Omen_of_Peace
Jun 30, 2009 17:28:14
Not to toot my own horn too much, but I'd argue that the build I linked for the wizard would be stronger than either Incantrix / SCM or Incantrix / Iot7FV because of the Dweomerkeeper levels, allowing fun shenannigans like free Miracles / Wishes and the ability to cast any Divine / Wiz spell (Favor of the Martyr + Celerity anyone?) for no XP / Material cost, regardless of spell casting time. This would apply even for Epic spells if you ever got there.

I'll give you the reduced spellcasting time and Supernatural Gate and quite importantly non-dispellability (I do think Dweomerkeepers are great), but Supernatural Wish is obtainable trivially by Shapechanging into a Zodar (a different Zodar every time naturally, so no 1/year restriction nonsense) and SCMs perform Shadow Miracles like they give out candy (IIRC with Residual Magic and the other shenanigans they can use an 8th level and a 0th level spell slot to cast two Miracles, in 2 consecutive rounds).
#18
naldor
Jun 30, 2009 20:39:03 @Omen of Peace: Don't forget the delight of Persistent Arcane Spellsurge for 2 spells / round, every round. Free Quicken is pretty nice. Swift action to cast an arcane spell, standard action to cast a divine spell from the MT levels, or from being a planetar.

You know, if you really are just going to throw all the cheese into the melting pot... *cough* Planar Shepard *cough*, you might as well take the best dip known to man in terms of BaB...

+6 BaB at first level
#19
Omen_of_Peace
Jul 01, 2009 6:54:39 I'm actually not sure about Arcane Spellsurge. If you use an immediate action you can't cast an arcane spell afterwards... that sucks.

Planar Shepherd is still CO, overpowered though it is. The (fun) trick you link to is just plain TO ("let's misinterpret the words by taking them litterally and ignoring context"). And TO leads to Pun-Pun. ;)

On another note, why stick to Planetar ? With a Bard cohort using Inspire Greatness (with a Vest of Legend) you can have most of the party changing to Solars...
#20
kell_kheraptis
Jul 01, 2009 10:19:15
I'm actually not sure about Arcane Spellsurge. If you use an immediate action you can't cast an arcane spell afterwards... that sucks.

Planar Shepherd is still CO, overpowered though it is. The (fun) trick you link to is just plain TO ("let's misinterpret the words by taking them litterally and ignoring context"). And TO leads to Pun-Pun. ;)

On another note, why stick to Planetar ? With a Bard cohort using Inspire Greatness (with a Vest of Legend) you can have most of the party changing to Solars...

Good thing someone is good with Bards here, because I'm not (despite being a musician IRL) :P I was also thinking...any of them could conceivably have a melee specialty and still have full caster capability, metamagic and all with the bought feats available, due to Planetar/Solar form. Solar Revanent Blade Berserker! As for a Psi-Gish, I'm thinking a Psionic Abjurant Champion, Psionic Swiftblade tacked onto Ardent with Practiced Manifester would be downright wicked, especially since from a CO standpoint we can always PS more powers into his brain.

So we've got a Cheater of Mystra, a Planar Shepherd Druid, that Psi-Gish, an Incantaluran Elder for buffzilla, a dedicated propshredder, and various Shadowcraft Mage builds for "sneckin' ." Perhaps #5 = CO-ed up Malconvoker, for never-ending supply of BSFs? "Leadership? Bah...I brought the entire damned ABYSS!"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kell_kheraptis Jun 28, 2009 22:22:34	As an exercise for a friend of mine, I decided I'm going to make a party of Tier 1 bad asses, but the only stipulations are 9th level spells and BAB of at least +16 (unless the trade off is REALLY good and they can DP themselves). Example of an exception to that rule would be a Cheater of Mystra (ironically, the chosen for my "cleric" in the party). The idea is to show him the pinnacle of optimization-fu, while at the same time giving him ideas on how to challenge a party of any power level, since if you can take on a party of Twice-Betrayer Cheaters of Smack, you can take on just about anything short of Pun-Pun. I'm thinking 6 total, in the layout of : 1 Divine Caster - Cheater of Mystra 1 Arcane Caster - Jade Phoenix Mage most likely 1 Dual caster/archivist - This one may be a dragonblood pool archivist War Weaver 1 Sneaky caster - Seeing Arcane type Unseen Seer 1 Bardic based caster - Sublime Chord builds welcome! 1 Druidzilla - Another easy one That makes for a party of 6, synergy via the War Weaver and JPM for BC, the War Weaver and Bard for Buffing in combat (not to mention anti-casting), the CoM for just about anything, all of them capable for damage, and truth be told, all of them capable on their own, but nigh unstoppable together. Go all out on this, Affiliations, Teamwork benefits, buying a zillion feats and retraining them, the works (IIRC there's like 23 if you get em all, for something like 100k, a bargain in my book). He also put in a request for a monk-type, which I saw as a Cleric/Sacred Fist/Divine Oracle with IUS/SUS/Monk's Belt abuse. Some assumptions about this exercise : 1. All spells through various means exist as both divine and arcane. 2. Text trumps table. DM's might rule otherwise, but not for this exercise. 3. LA Buyoff in effect for up to 3 LA pre-epic, and bloodline levels are paid for as you level (meaning if you have 18,000 XP or more to play with in addition to level 20, you can add a bloodline for free, since it was paid for during play, as the bloody things were intended...no pun intended). 4. Will add to this as needed. Let the games...BEGIN!
#2 Endarire Jun 28, 2009 23:02:13	Sneaky casters like Unseen Seers can fairly easily get L9 spells but not a consistent 16+ BAB. As for the arcane melee guy, he's akin to Hood. Doubly Flawed Simple Nezumi NG or CG Dragonborn Nezumi (Oriental Adventures) Barbarian1/Martial Transmuter5/Eldritch Knight6/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight4 1: {Aggressive OR Spellgifted: Transmutation}, Battle Jump, Leap of the Heavens, [Literacy], [Pounce], Practiced Caster: Wizard, {Quick} 2: [Power Attack], [Sudden Shift OR Hummingbird Familiar] 3: Travel Devotion 6: [Domain Granted Power: Time (Improved Initiative)], Leap Attack 7: [Cleave] 9: Arcane Strike 12: Combat Casting 15: Improved Bull Rush 18: Combat Brute
#3 jaronk Jun 29, 2009 0:08:47	I don't see why you're worrying about BAB, at least for Archivists and Clerics. They've got Persistant Divine Power available anyway. Heck, if the Wizard wants to be a bastard he can take levels in Anima Mage, then cast Persistant Shapechange to turn into a Solar, then use the Cleric casting of the Solar to Persist Divine Power. Whee! JaronK
#4 gorfnad_the_shiznit Jun 29, 2009 3:40:32	Two gish bard builds with sublime chord that I can think of are Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8 Bard 7/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3 Both get BAB 17 and 9th level spells For a sneaky caster Whisper Gnome with Dark Creature (ToM) and Shadow Creature (LoM) Templates. You said LA +3 pre-epic. Rogue 1/ Beguiler 6/ Unseen Seer 1/ Beguiler 1/ Unseen Seer 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcraft 5 So it's BAB is negligible. This one's hide/ move silently checks are insane especially with HiPS and Shadowblend. Throw in the Dark Stalker Feat and this guy is nearly impossible to find. Hunters Eye + Craven will add nicely to the sneak attack damage. And then there is the Shadowcraft Mage goodness....
#5 syrazemyla Jun 29, 2009 6:20:12	What about a psionic gish? Ranger 1/Psion 6/Illithid Slayer 9/Sanctified Mind 4 gets 9th level powers and BAB +17, and a host of other goodies.
#6 naldor Jun 29, 2009 9:45:49	If I might suggest, I put together a rather nice Arcane Caster who can use Persistant Divine Power to get the BaB you want, and has a few other very nice goodies as well, such as casting True Resurrection in the middle of combat to keep the rest of the party on their feet: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1190944
#7 lormador Jun 29, 2009 9:50:24	For a sneaky caster Whisper Gnome with Dark Creature (ToM) and Shadow Creature (LoM) Templates. You said LA +3 pre-epic. Rogue 1/ Beguiler 6/ Unseen Seer 1/ Beguiler 1/ Unseen Seer 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcraft 5 So it's BAB is negligible. This one's hide/ move silently checks are insane especially with HiPS and Shadowblend. Throw in the Dark Stalker Feat and this guy is nearly impossible to find. I like it. Since we're going this far, why not go all the way for an extreme undetectability build? Drop him undead to avoid Lifesense, give him Shadow Magic to cloak his illusions. If Mind Blank/Darkstalker etc. won't cover him from Mindsight, maybe Wish him immune or just keep him farther than 100', still Medium range anyway. He'll be flying, so Tremorsense won't reveal him.
#8 kell_kheraptis Jun 29, 2009 10:27:01	Archivist 3/War Weaver 5/Spellguard of Silverymoon 5/Legacy Champion 5/Mindbender 1/Sacred Exorcist 1 was what I was thinking of for the archivist entry, as they mesh uber well with War Weaver, and Doc Roc has already set precedent for a divine caster getting in. That gish though looks pretty sexy :D I'm guessing the idea is using archivist's list and alternate spell source to port everything over to the wizard spellbook? Ok, here's what I have so far : Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/Divine Disciple 5 Archivist 3/War Weaver 5/Spellguard of Silverymoon 5/Legacy Champion 5/Mindbender 1/Sacred Exorcist 1 Wizard 6/Ruathar 3/Warblade 1/Jade Phoexin Mage 10 Bard 6/Crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Sublime Chord 2/Jade Phoenix Mage +8 Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10 Rogue 1/Beguiler 6/Unseen Seer 1/Beguiler +1/Unseen Seer +1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter 5 As I see it, all have a trick to get BAB, or raw BAB of 16+, all have 9th level spell capability, and all have plenty of versatility. Also, for purposes of this exercise since it's available from 15th level on, consider all to be Planetars :D As I said, if you're gonna go, go all out!
#9 Endarire Jun 29, 2009 16:21:51	How does Archivist3 qualify for War Weaver? I see Human with Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, Enlarge Spell, and Sanctum Spell.
#10 Omen_of_Peace Jun 30, 2009 7:10:38	BAB is really immaterial - everyone can get DP via a Ring of Spell Storing (have one cleric take Easy Metamagic: Persistent Spell just in case the DMM/spell level interaction is not clear). So the Wizard should really be an Incantatrix/SCM or an Incantatrix/Io7V. I'd include a RKV to provide extra turns to everyone via WRT (you know, in case the Planar Bubble is not enough). For the Monk, there's always Monk 1/Erudite 19 with Tashalatora and Spell to Power.
#11 naldor Jun 30, 2009 9:13:52	Not to toot my own horn too much, but I'd argue that the build I linked for the wizard would be stronger than either Incantrix / SCM or Incantrix / Iot7FV because of the Dweomerkeeper levels, allowing fun shenannigans like free Miracles / Wishes and the ability to cast any Divine / Wiz spell (Favor of the Martyr + Celerity anyone?) for no XP / Material cost, regardless of spell casting time. This would apply even for Epic spells if you ever got there.
#12 kell_kheraptis Jun 30, 2009 12:18:53	BAB is really immaterial - everyone can get DP via a Ring of Spell Storing (have one cleric take Easy Metamagic: Persistent Spell just in case the DMM/spell level interaction is not clear). So the Wizard should really be an Incantatrix/SCM or an Incantatrix/Io7V. I'd include a RKV to provide extra turns to everyone via WRT (you know, in case the Planar Bubble is not enough). For the Monk, there's always Monk 1/Erudite 19 with Tashalatora and Spell to Power. That's what I was thinking with the Arcane God, who I believe was built by CantripN? I hadn't thought of combining White Raven's dance with the Synchronicity Shuffle though, that's sexy :D And we all know my views on StP ^.^ Naldor, how would that build look with Haluran Elder capped on the end? Similar concept to the Incantatrix, only with Sup. capability for the XP breakers.
#13 naldor Jun 30, 2009 13:42:59	Kell, I'd actually say that Haluran Elder wouldn't add much to the build. The character already has spontaneous casting ability from the Uncanny Forethought feat, which works on a wider list than the signature spell feature would. The metamagic feat reduction would make the Spellcraft DC's to modify spells lower, but that character should have +50 spellcraft by level 10 or so, so it's not really needed, and he rarely actually prepares metamagic feats normally. Overall, I think the Iot7FV levels and their defensive capabilities add a lot more to the build, especially a gish who wants to not worry about other casters while he charges people with his thunderlance while riding a Phantom Steed. And where are you getting (su) capability from? I didn't notice anything about that while glancing through the class.
#14 kell_kheraptis Jun 30, 2009 13:45:17	Kell, I'd actually say that Haluran Elder wouldn't add much to the build. The character already has spontaneous casting ability from the Uncanny Forethought feat, which works on a wider list than the signature spell feature would. The metamagic feat reduction would make the Spellcraft DC's to modify spells lower, but that character should have +50 spellcraft by level 10 or so, so it's not really needed, and he rarely actually prepares metamagic feats normally. And where are you getting (su) capability from? I didn't notice anything about that while glancing through the class. I was refering to the Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell ability. I may have gotten things tangled...got a lot of stuff going on at the moment lol
#15 elondir Jun 30, 2009 16:37:34	I know it's not a +16/9th level spells, but how about 9th level spells/9th level spells? As in... Half-fey Human Bard 1/wizard 5/mindbender 1/ur-priest 3/sublime chord 1/mystic theurge 9 advancing sublime chord and ur-priest. 32-point buy: STR 10, DEX 8, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 16, CHA 14. After adjustments: STR 10, DEX 10, CON 10, INT 16, WIS 18, CHA 18. Take Able Learner so you only have to spend 1 point for cross-class skill ranks. This comes in really handy in the Ur Priest and Mindbender levels when you have to max out perform and listen in a hurry. You could do Changeling as well but watch out for that -2 to CHA. Has 9th level divine spells and 9th level wizard spells. Casts all classes at 20th level (Ur-Priest 10 + Sublime Chord 10). Take practiced spellcaster feats to boost your caster level further. Buy back your half-fey LA at levels 6 and 9 using Unearthed Arcana rules. Your BAB is crap at +8/+3 but that can be boosted easily. Also with fractional BAB you get +11/+6/+1 instead. Half-fey provides flight and lots of other useful SLA's. Grab a belt of magnificence +6 to compensate for slight MAD between WIS and CHA, and the INT for skill points. EDIT: Add leadership and make your cohort a half-iron golem half-black dragon troll if your leadership score is high enough (he's ECL 17). Cure his half-golem insanity with a heal spell. He's nearly indestructible - rust and ability damage/drain are his only weaknesses, since he's immune to acid and fire, and all damage is subdual damage because of his troll regeneration, but he's immune to subdual damage because of his construct traits. His average base stats (assuming all 10's rolled) are STR 42 DEX 12 CON 28 INT 2 WIS 8 CHA 2, so you'll need to give him a headband of intellect +6 and a cloak of charisma +6 to get him to just below average in these fields. If you use point buy I'd put most of your points in INT and CHA. He's your meat shield.
#16 kell_kheraptis Jun 30, 2009 17:02:24	From now on, consider all characters to be Planetars, due to PAO capability. Thus only the DK needs a cleric base, and all will in a sense be MT's. That's a pretty wicked MT though, similar to the War Weaver one I built before deciding to make the ungodly host into "host" members :P
#17 Omen_of_Peace Jun 30, 2009 17:28:14	Not to toot my own horn too much, but I'd argue that the build I linked for the wizard would be stronger than either Incantrix / SCM or Incantrix / Iot7FV because of the Dweomerkeeper levels, allowing fun shenannigans like free Miracles / Wishes and the ability to cast any Divine / Wiz spell (Favor of the Martyr + Celerity anyone?) for no XP / Material cost, regardless of spell casting time. This would apply even for Epic spells if you ever got there. I'll give you the reduced spellcasting time and Supernatural Gate and quite importantly non-dispellability (I do think Dweomerkeepers are great), but Supernatural Wish is obtainable trivially by Shapechanging into a Zodar (a different Zodar every time naturally, so no 1/year restriction nonsense) and SCMs perform Shadow Miracles like they give out candy (IIRC with Residual Magic and the other shenanigans they can use an 8th level and a 0th level spell slot to cast two Miracles, in 2 consecutive rounds).
#18 naldor Jun 30, 2009 20:39:03	@Omen of Peace: Don't forget the delight of Persistent Arcane Spellsurge for 2 spells / round, every round. Free Quicken is pretty nice. Swift action to cast an arcane spell, standard action to cast a divine spell from the MT levels, or from being a planetar. You know, if you really are just going to throw all the cheese into the melting pot... cough Planar Shepard cough, you might as well take the best dip known to man in terms of BaB... +6 BaB at first level
#19 Omen_of_Peace Jul 01, 2009 6:54:39	I'm actually not sure about Arcane Spellsurge. If you use an immediate action you can't cast an arcane spell afterwards... that sucks. Planar Shepherd is still CO, overpowered though it is. The (fun) trick you link to is just plain TO ("let's misinterpret the words by taking them litterally and ignoring context"). And TO leads to Pun-Pun. ;) On another note, why stick to Planetar ? With a Bard cohort using Inspire Greatness (with a Vest of Legend) you can have most of the party changing to Solars...
#20 kell_kheraptis Jul 01, 2009 10:19:15	I'm actually not sure about Arcane Spellsurge. If you use an immediate action you can't cast an arcane spell afterwards... that sucks. Planar Shepherd is still CO, overpowered though it is. The (fun) trick you link to is just plain TO ("let's misinterpret the words by taking them litterally and ignoring context"). And TO leads to Pun-Pun. ;) On another note, why stick to Planetar ? With a Bard cohort using Inspire Greatness (with a Vest of Legend) you can have most of the party changing to Solars... Good thing someone is good with Bards here, because I'm not (despite being a musician IRL) :P I was also thinking...any of them could conceivably have a melee specialty and still have full caster capability, metamagic and all with the bought feats available, due to Planetar/Solar form. Solar Revanent Blade Berserker! As for a Psi-Gish, I'm thinking a Psionic Abjurant Champion, Psionic Swiftblade tacked onto Ardent with Practiced Manifester would be downright wicked, especially since from a CO standpoint we can always PS more powers into his brain. So we've got a Cheater of Mystra, a Planar Shepherd Druid, that Psi-Gish, an Incantaluran Elder for buffzilla, a dedicated propshredder, and various Shadowcraft Mage builds for "sneckin' ." Perhaps #5 = CO-ed up Malconvoker, for never-ending supply of BSFs? "Leadership? Bah...I brought the entire damned ABYSS!"