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Building my first Artificer!

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
casualgatherer
Apr 12, 2009 14:28:21 And, understandably, my inexperience with Eberron gets in the way. Critique and hopefully help my build out. I did look through the pseudo Artificer handbook from the handy links.

Neutral Changeling Artificer 20 (Point buy 32+1d12, assuming 35 here.)

Str: 10 (2)
Dex: 14 (6)
Con: 12 (4)
Int: 18 (16)
Wis: 8 (0)
Cha: 15 (7)

1: Legendary Artisan
3: Extend Spell
4b: Extraordinary Artisan
6: Persist Spell
8b: Wand Mastery
9: Energy Substitution
12: Quicken Spell
12b: Attune Magic Weapons
15: Energy Admixture
16b: Extra Rings
18: Twin Spell
20b: Craft Construct

Skills maxed are: Appraise, Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Planes), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device. Craft (Pottery) has 4 ranks (Dedicated Wight is DC 14), Craft (Metalworking) has 4 ranks for Iron Defenders, Craft (Sculpting) has 6 ranks for Expedititous Messengers. Furtive Filchers are DC 12 (Pottery) or (Sculpting).

Comments? Thanks in advance.
#2
phoenix00
Apr 12, 2009 14:40:56 What is your starting level?

What is your party like?

What role do you want to do?

What books are avaliable?

Remember with artificers if you go the persist route than your persistent spells/wands affect the entire party. All they need is their own source of umd or the spell on their spell list.
#3
casualgatherer
Apr 12, 2009 15:03:33 Starting level is two. I understand i'll be playing through the tough levels where my best UMD modifier is +7 without Skill Focus feats, but this campaign is going from 2-20, and i've decided that the benefit isn't worth losing the feat.

Party is 2 rogues, a paladin, a bard, a barbarian, a fighter, a cleric, a ranger/Wizard later on, and a Monk/Dragon magazine class which casts both Arcane and divine spells up to fifth level. That being said, only 4 or 5 of them ever show up for any one session. The group has always been this large, and we have played three campaigns like this.

I tried to do both. Twin Spell and the Energy Sub/Admixture for an insane amount of wand blasting damage very late, While Extend and Persist fit a Buffing role earlier. I plan to go through wands very fast.

There is a long list of allowed and disallowed. For base classes, Core, Completes, ECS, PHB@ and alternate features therein. For races, PHB, ECS, Mongrelfolk, Whisper Gnome, Dream Dwarves, Forest Gnomes, Orcs, Grey, Wild and Wood elves, Goblins, Deep dwarves, Tallfellow and Deep Halflings, as well as a couple races from Frostburn or Sandstorm. PrCs and Feats (and equipment and spells) can be taken from DMG, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Sandstorm (Only Scorpion Heritor), Races of the Wild (with restrictions), Races of Destiny (with restrictions), Heroes of Battle (Only Combat Medic and Dread Commando), Races of Stone (with restrictions), Stormwrack (Stormcaster), Frostburn (with restrictions), Complete Mage (with restrictions), Cityscape, Dragon Compendium, Complete Scoundrel (With restrictions), Complete Champion, Dungeonscape, Oriental Adventures (not Iajutsu Master)

there are some other places to get feats specifically, but they are not part of his list and i cannot remember them.

Essentially, i plan on using Eternal Wands for persisted, extended buffs, if that works, and then have wands of sonic/fire scorching rays. or maybe Acid orbs. I won't use these often, instead relying on something else, probably scrolls and things which have been given out as random party treasure, like they always seem to be done in our campaigns.

would invisible spell be of any use at all?
#4
casualgatherer
Apr 12, 2009 18:41:42 Come on, nothing? Doesn't the CO boards love Artificers? Just an extra thing to add to the build, would being anything other than a human from my race list be helpful? The party already has 4 humans out of 8 characters, so...
#5
jameswilliamogle
Apr 12, 2009 18:51:13
Come on, nothing? Doesn't the CO boards love Artificers? Just an extra thing to add to the build, would being anything other than a human from my race list be helpful? The party already has 4 humans out of 8 characters, so...

Feat selection looks fine. I also like Craft Construct in there, but whatever. The two feat requirements for Admixture I've always thought were too high; you might consider changing that to something else (Repeat, Maximize, or Chain Spell, perhaps, for Chained buffs for the party).

Only thing I'd try to change among rules: I'd play a Warforged and take the Warforged Artificer ACFs (but not the one for craft homonculus unless you make room for Craft Construct at 6th). Otherwise, human is OK. Boring, though (you play one in RL, why would you want to game as one, LOL).

Other than that, it looks fine. Not quite a pure bufficer or a pure blastificer, but a healthy mix.

Don't take Invisible spell. Very overrated metamagic for the way that DMs interpret how it works. Unless you're in Athkatla, then its "meh".
#6
casualgatherer
Apr 12, 2009 19:20:48 I thought that Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture were the ways that got Artificers crazy damage. Energy Sub changes everything into Sonic damage, while Energy Admixture doubles everything, making it Sonic and whatever the original was. (sonic can be acid, electricity, frost, fire...) If i drop those for Chain spell and something else, I'm better at buffing (Eternal wand of Heroics with Persist, chained to the whole party?) but worse at my crazy blasting with wands for like 96d6.

Warforged ACFs are not allowed, actually. I already asked about the ACF from Races of Eberron, and was denied. I'm actually playing a Changeling for roleplay reasons.

Any ways i can further become a generalist Artificer? Any reccomendations for my 200gp? i was thinking a +2 UMD item, Scale Mail, 25 daggers and a basic kit full of ropes and things. This would probably leave me with something like 30 gold. It would slowly become a Glamered +1 Breastplate, some stat boosting Items, and probably a Magical Crossbow, not that I really want to be using a weapon at all.
#7
jameswilliamogle
Apr 12, 2009 19:29:12 I'd buy a +2 UMD item, a few daggers, and scroll scribing equipment.

Energy Sub:Sonic hasn't been legal since 3.0, so make sure to list that as a house-rule if your DM is cool w/ it.

Repeat is just as good as Admixture. The only difference is that one is single round-super-impact and the other takes a round longer (and takes fewer feats).

If you can take energy admix sonic, I'd still say its a closer toss-up, but I'd lean towards the admix.

Full disclosure, though - having moderate buffing and nearly full blasting will make you a glory-vacuum, taking away utility from the party. This is the main reason why I prefer buffing roles.
#8
casualgatherer
Apr 12, 2009 19:42:52 dropping Admix and Energy sub for Chain and Repeat then. Repeat looks almost the same as Admix, but without Energy Sub. Chain Spell also gives me the ability to Eternal Wand the entire party with one spell, assuming i can persist chain an eternal wand.
#9
jameswilliamogle
Apr 12, 2009 19:54:45
assuming i can persist chain an eternal wand.

I don't think you can. For one thing, I think the metamagic costs are too high (I don't think you can apply anything other than +1 or +2 metamagics to eternal wands, due to charges, depending on whether you use the ECS or MIC rules for eternal wands).

Persistant Spells have to have target: Personal or fixed range spells (like detect magic et al, or true strike). And, Chain Spell can only affect single target spells. Strict ruling, this means spells with "single target" in their target entry; loose ruling, this includes rays and touch spells - ask your DM how he interprets it, as its not as good in the first case.

He might even say that "personal" means single target, too, which is the most beneficial case, since you could chain persist your wand buffs then (you'd still need to use a regular wand, though).
#10
casualgatherer
Apr 12, 2009 20:14:53 Hrmm... That makes chain spell a little bit worse. I might be going with my battlefield control wizard after all. This is way too confusing, and i don't know if i want to be perpetually a level and a bit behind, since I'm already starting really far behind, with a party that ranges from 25xp from 3rd level to 560xp from 2nd level. I guess being 1000xp from 3rd isn't so bad...

So, here is my new bunch of feats...

1: Legendary Artisan
3: Extend Spell
6: Persist Spell
9: Twin Spell
12: Quicken Spell
15: Repeat Spell
18: FREE

because i doubt my DM will rule in favour of Chain spell. what can i fill that last feat with? (not energy sub.) Is it worth moving everything after extend three levels down for Martial Weapon Prof. in Longbows so that i can get Iterative Attacks?
#11
jameswilliamogle
Apr 12, 2009 20:27:16
what can i fill that last feat with? (not energy sub.)

Maximize Spell. Mainly, b/c adding up 96 die of damage in a round is a pain in the arse!
Is it worth moving everything after extend three levels down for Martial Weapon Prof. in Longbows so that i can get Iterative Attacks?

No. Thats what your eternal wand of Heroics is for. Just use thrown simple weapons instead (maybe returning spellstoring thrown weapons). Hunter's Eye + Acid Flasks works nicely, too.
#12
casualgatherer
Apr 12, 2009 20:44:06 Probably thrown daggers, nonmagical, until i get Gauntlets of Infinite Blades. Alternatively, +1 Metalline Returning Spell storing is +5, so i can always hope. i only need 3 for a full attack, and they ramp well, becoming +1 Returning ->+1 Returning Spell storing ->Metalline.

For armour, my hopefully good armour would be a +X Glamered Breastplate. Having a +X Glamered Full plate would let me use all of my +3 Dex, while also giving me an 8+X bonus.

For wands, i was planning on always having an eternal wand of Heroics and maybe some other Transmutation buffs, as well as having some wands of various spells like lesser acid orb and summon monster (appropriate for level)
#13
jameswilliamogle
Apr 12, 2009 20:52:29 Sounds good. Don't overrate eternal wands, though... Heroics is great, and a few other buffs too, probably, but they're at very low CL.
#14
casualgatherer
Apr 12, 2009 21:13:48 Heroics would be for Quick Draw, so i can hit with multiple daggers. It would probably be used in the first 2 big encounters a day, hopefully carrying over from the increased CL.

I would probably be Persisting a wand of Mage armour/Greater mage armour, which i would subsume for craft reserve once i got a better armour bonus through more expensive items. After that, i was thinking that Persisting Heroism (Brd 2) would be a nice buff to have all day, as well as giving me a +2 to UMD.

Some wands that would be great would be some Cleric buffs, Enervation, possibly Ray of Enfeeblement and other Ability damage spells, which i would Maximize (is empower better?) and twin. I don't know if those spells work with repeat though, as they probably don't stack.

Another question, does Repeat spell also duplicate any MM used as well, cause if so then Repeated, Twin, Maximized Enervation is like 16 negative levels.
#15
jameswilliamogle
Apr 12, 2009 21:28:26
Another question, does Repeat spell also duplicate any MM used as well, cause if so then Repeated, Twin, Maximized Enervation is like 16 negative levels.

Yes.
#16
casualgatherer
Apr 12, 2009 22:03:13 Well, that's kinda silly. I'm pretty sure this thread is over now, unless someone wants to critque other parts of my build.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 casualgatherer Apr 12, 2009 14:28:21	And, understandably, my inexperience with Eberron gets in the way. Critique and hopefully help my build out. I did look through the pseudo Artificer handbook from the handy links. Neutral Changeling Artificer 20 (Point buy 32+1d12, assuming 35 here.) Str: 10 (2) Dex: 14 (6) Con: 12 (4) Int: 18 (16) Wis: 8 (0) Cha: 15 (7) 1: Legendary Artisan 3: Extend Spell 4b: Extraordinary Artisan 6: Persist Spell 8b: Wand Mastery 9: Energy Substitution 12: Quicken Spell 12b: Attune Magic Weapons 15: Energy Admixture 16b: Extra Rings 18: Twin Spell 20b: Craft Construct Skills maxed are: Appraise, Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Planes), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device. Craft (Pottery) has 4 ranks (Dedicated Wight is DC 14), Craft (Metalworking) has 4 ranks for Iron Defenders, Craft (Sculpting) has 6 ranks for Expedititous Messengers. Furtive Filchers are DC 12 (Pottery) or (Sculpting). Comments? Thanks in advance.
#2 phoenix00 Apr 12, 2009 14:40:56	What is your starting level? What is your party like? What role do you want to do? What books are avaliable? Remember with artificers if you go the persist route than your persistent spells/wands affect the entire party. All they need is their own source of umd or the spell on their spell list.
#3 casualgatherer Apr 12, 2009 15:03:33	Starting level is two. I understand i'll be playing through the tough levels where my best UMD modifier is +7 without Skill Focus feats, but this campaign is going from 2-20, and i've decided that the benefit isn't worth losing the feat. Party is 2 rogues, a paladin, a bard, a barbarian, a fighter, a cleric, a ranger/Wizard later on, and a Monk/Dragon magazine class which casts both Arcane and divine spells up to fifth level. That being said, only 4 or 5 of them ever show up for any one session. The group has always been this large, and we have played three campaigns like this. I tried to do both. Twin Spell and the Energy Sub/Admixture for an insane amount of wand blasting damage very late, While Extend and Persist fit a Buffing role earlier. I plan to go through wands very fast. There is a long list of allowed and disallowed. For base classes, Core, Completes, ECS, PHB@ and alternate features therein. For races, PHB, ECS, Mongrelfolk, Whisper Gnome, Dream Dwarves, Forest Gnomes, Orcs, Grey, Wild and Wood elves, Goblins, Deep dwarves, Tallfellow and Deep Halflings, as well as a couple races from Frostburn or Sandstorm. PrCs and Feats (and equipment and spells) can be taken from DMG, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Sandstorm (Only Scorpion Heritor), Races of the Wild (with restrictions), Races of Destiny (with restrictions), Heroes of Battle (Only Combat Medic and Dread Commando), Races of Stone (with restrictions), Stormwrack (Stormcaster), Frostburn (with restrictions), Complete Mage (with restrictions), Cityscape, Dragon Compendium, Complete Scoundrel (With restrictions), Complete Champion, Dungeonscape, Oriental Adventures (not Iajutsu Master) there are some other places to get feats specifically, but they are not part of his list and i cannot remember them. Essentially, i plan on using Eternal Wands for persisted, extended buffs, if that works, and then have wands of sonic/fire scorching rays. or maybe Acid orbs. I won't use these often, instead relying on something else, probably scrolls and things which have been given out as random party treasure, like they always seem to be done in our campaigns. would invisible spell be of any use at all?
#4 casualgatherer Apr 12, 2009 18:41:42	Come on, nothing? Doesn't the CO boards love Artificers? Just an extra thing to add to the build, would being anything other than a human from my race list be helpful? The party already has 4 humans out of 8 characters, so...
#5 jameswilliamogle Apr 12, 2009 18:51:13	Come on, nothing? Doesn't the CO boards love Artificers? Just an extra thing to add to the build, would being anything other than a human from my race list be helpful? The party already has 4 humans out of 8 characters, so... Feat selection looks fine. I also like Craft Construct in there, but whatever. The two feat requirements for Admixture I've always thought were too high; you might consider changing that to something else (Repeat, Maximize, or Chain Spell, perhaps, for Chained buffs for the party). Only thing I'd try to change among rules: I'd play a Warforged and take the Warforged Artificer ACFs (but not the one for craft homonculus unless you make room for Craft Construct at 6th). Otherwise, human is OK. Boring, though (you play one in RL, why would you want to game as one, LOL). Other than that, it looks fine. Not quite a pure bufficer or a pure blastificer, but a healthy mix. Don't take Invisible spell. Very overrated metamagic for the way that DMs interpret how it works. Unless you're in Athkatla, then its "meh".
#6 casualgatherer Apr 12, 2009 19:20:48	I thought that Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture were the ways that got Artificers crazy damage. Energy Sub changes everything into Sonic damage, while Energy Admixture doubles everything, making it Sonic and whatever the original was. (sonic can be acid, electricity, frost, fire...) If i drop those for Chain spell and something else, I'm better at buffing (Eternal wand of Heroics with Persist, chained to the whole party?) but worse at my crazy blasting with wands for like 96d6. Warforged ACFs are not allowed, actually. I already asked about the ACF from Races of Eberron, and was denied. I'm actually playing a Changeling for roleplay reasons. Any ways i can further become a generalist Artificer? Any reccomendations for my 200gp? i was thinking a +2 UMD item, Scale Mail, 25 daggers and a basic kit full of ropes and things. This would probably leave me with something like 30 gold. It would slowly become a Glamered +1 Breastplate, some stat boosting Items, and probably a Magical Crossbow, not that I really want to be using a weapon at all.
#7 jameswilliamogle Apr 12, 2009 19:29:12	I'd buy a +2 UMD item, a few daggers, and scroll scribing equipment. Energy Sub:Sonic hasn't been legal since 3.0, so make sure to list that as a house-rule if your DM is cool w/ it. Repeat is just as good as Admixture. The only difference is that one is single round-super-impact and the other takes a round longer (and takes fewer feats). If you can take energy admix sonic, I'd still say its a closer toss-up, but I'd lean towards the admix. Full disclosure, though - having moderate buffing and nearly full blasting will make you a glory-vacuum, taking away utility from the party. This is the main reason why I prefer buffing roles.
#8 casualgatherer Apr 12, 2009 19:42:52	dropping Admix and Energy sub for Chain and Repeat then. Repeat looks almost the same as Admix, but without Energy Sub. Chain Spell also gives me the ability to Eternal Wand the entire party with one spell, assuming i can persist chain an eternal wand.
#9 jameswilliamogle Apr 12, 2009 19:54:45	assuming i can persist chain an eternal wand. I don't think you can. For one thing, I think the metamagic costs are too high (I don't think you can apply anything other than +1 or +2 metamagics to eternal wands, due to charges, depending on whether you use the ECS or MIC rules for eternal wands). Persistant Spells have to have target: Personal or fixed range spells (like detect magic et al, or true strike). And, Chain Spell can only affect single target spells. Strict ruling, this means spells with "single target" in their target entry; loose ruling, this includes rays and touch spells - ask your DM how he interprets it, as its not as good in the first case. He might even say that "personal" means single target, too, which is the most beneficial case, since you could chain persist your wand buffs then (you'd still need to use a regular wand, though).
#10 casualgatherer Apr 12, 2009 20:14:53	Hrmm... That makes chain spell a little bit worse. I might be going with my battlefield control wizard after all. This is way too confusing, and i don't know if i want to be perpetually a level and a bit behind, since I'm already starting really far behind, with a party that ranges from 25xp from 3rd level to 560xp from 2nd level. I guess being 1000xp from 3rd isn't so bad... So, here is my new bunch of feats... 1: Legendary Artisan 3: Extend Spell 6: Persist Spell 9: Twin Spell 12: Quicken Spell 15: Repeat Spell 18: FREE because i doubt my DM will rule in favour of Chain spell. what can i fill that last feat with? (not energy sub.) Is it worth moving everything after extend three levels down for Martial Weapon Prof. in Longbows so that i can get Iterative Attacks?
#11 jameswilliamogle Apr 12, 2009 20:27:16	what can i fill that last feat with? (not energy sub.) Maximize Spell. Mainly, b/c adding up 96 die of damage in a round is a pain in the arse! Is it worth moving everything after extend three levels down for Martial Weapon Prof. in Longbows so that i can get Iterative Attacks? No. Thats what your eternal wand of Heroics is for. Just use thrown simple weapons instead (maybe returning spellstoring thrown weapons). Hunter's Eye + Acid Flasks works nicely, too.
#12 casualgatherer Apr 12, 2009 20:44:06	Probably thrown daggers, nonmagical, until i get Gauntlets of Infinite Blades. Alternatively, +1 Metalline Returning Spell storing is +5, so i can always hope. i only need 3 for a full attack, and they ramp well, becoming +1 Returning ->+1 Returning Spell storing ->Metalline. For armour, my hopefully good armour would be a +X Glamered Breastplate. Having a +X Glamered Full plate would let me use all of my +3 Dex, while also giving me an 8+X bonus. For wands, i was planning on always having an eternal wand of Heroics and maybe some other Transmutation buffs, as well as having some wands of various spells like lesser acid orb and summon monster (appropriate for level)
#13 jameswilliamogle Apr 12, 2009 20:52:29	Sounds good. Don't overrate eternal wands, though... Heroics is great, and a few other buffs too, probably, but they're at very low CL.
#14 casualgatherer Apr 12, 2009 21:13:48	Heroics would be for Quick Draw, so i can hit with multiple daggers. It would probably be used in the first 2 big encounters a day, hopefully carrying over from the increased CL. I would probably be Persisting a wand of Mage armour/Greater mage armour, which i would subsume for craft reserve once i got a better armour bonus through more expensive items. After that, i was thinking that Persisting Heroism (Brd 2) would be a nice buff to have all day, as well as giving me a +2 to UMD. Some wands that would be great would be some Cleric buffs, Enervation, possibly Ray of Enfeeblement and other Ability damage spells, which i would Maximize (is empower better?) and twin. I don't know if those spells work with repeat though, as they probably don't stack. Another question, does Repeat spell also duplicate any MM used as well, cause if so then Repeated, Twin, Maximized Enervation is like 16 negative levels.
#15 jameswilliamogle Apr 12, 2009 21:28:26	Another question, does Repeat spell also duplicate any MM used as well, cause if so then Repeated, Twin, Maximized Enervation is like 16 negative levels. Yes.
#16 casualgatherer Apr 12, 2009 22:03:13	Well, that's kinda silly. I'm pretty sure this thread is over now, unless someone wants to critque other parts of my build.