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Building things for money?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
venshad
Sep 13, 2008 12:31:31 Hi!

As stated by my other posts, I'm currently making an artificer for a FR game, staring soon. However my DM is somewhat strict to the amount of gold pieces we start, even if we begin at 6th (as our case).

Here is my question: As an artificer, my main ability is to make things, both magical and ordinary. As this, can I spend, lets say, 5.000 XP, dropping to
5th level and sell the items I make with this XP?

I'll be more clarifying: I made an armor set that costs something around 60.000 gp. I want to use some XP to make hypothetical items (prior to the game) so I can sell them for double it's creation cost and use this money to construct my armor set.

Is this valid? Wrong? As DMs what should you do?

Thanks for reading!
#2
pithica
Sep 13, 2008 14:10:37 It's valid. Unless your DM houserules it somehow, any campaign in which you start out at a level higher than 1st you can spend the XP on item creation rather than on levels, normally.

It's not normally worth it, though. You seem to have missed a little snag in your plan, which is that selling items, normally, only go for 50% of their Market Price. So, your creation costs are the selling costs of the item. So you're spending XP for a net gain of 0 gold.

If, however, you take Mercantile Background, and the Artisan Feats (at least the gold and xp ones) from EBCS, you may be able to come out on top, mathematically. With those three feats, you're creation costs both in XP and Gold drop by 25% (32.5% of Market Price in Gold instead of 50%), and your sell price increases by 50% (to 75% of Market price in Gold, instead of 50%). In that way, you *can* double your starting cash, but you're blowing 2 feats to do so. (taking the xp reduction just means you won't spend as much XP to do so, but if you plan on playing a crafter, all three of these feats are good options anyway)

EDIT: And before I forget. Taking Mercantile Background gives you an additional 300gp at starting (600gp if you pick Sembia as your starting region). It also means that EVERYTHING you sell, is at 75% instead of the normal 50%, increasing all the loot you bring in. More importantly, it means you get to make a single purchase each month at 75% of market price. Every DM I know, including me, has ruled that starting equipment can almost all (at least the major gear) be purchased this way, since there's no reason why a person with this feat wouldn't wait a month between each major equipment purchase. They are merchants, after all.
#3
venshad
Sep 13, 2008 14:44:30 First, thanks for the reply!

Well, I see that when selling loot you will receive just 50% of an item market price. Period.

However, I'm not selling loot. IMO I'm making items and selling them as if I were a merchant (not selling to a merchant).

As I started as 5th level there's nothing that says I can't have had a living as a merchant. Although there's no rule about it, isn't it logical?

Thanks again!
#4
pithica
Sep 13, 2008 15:04:04 Your DM can certainly rule it that way, but the actual RAW is that for players selling anything that isn't 'Trade Goods' (which is a defined list and does not include magic items), they always sell at 50% of market price, without the Mercantile Background Feat. Normally, by RAW, only NPC's can sell goods (other than trade goods) at 100% of their market price.
#5
venshad
Sep 13, 2008 19:46:41 I see. Just to avoid counting with the good will of my DM, I decided to add Mercantile Background to my build, so I can get as much money as if I was selling the item by it's market price.
#6
pithica
Sep 13, 2008 22:18:57 If you want a full 100% profit with stuff you make, you need both Mercantile Background (sell at 75% of Market Price), plus Extraordinary Artisan (-25% to Creation cost, or 37.5% of Market Price instead of 50%). Both of these are good feats for any crafter build, though, and worth it, if that's the way you plan on playing your character for the duration.

If you can get your DM to rule that you were a 'merchant' in your previous life to save you the two feats, you may be able to convince him. But, don't be surprised if he expects you to pay taxes and rent and all the other things that NPC merchants have to pay (which is why adventurers normally only sell for 50% of Market, because they are going around the normal system).
#7
venshad
Sep 14, 2008 6:10:55 Yes, thats ok.

I've already added those two Feats at the progression. The bad side is that the Artisan Feat chain (Extraordinary, Legendary and Exceptional) does not stack with each other.

Anyway, I'm still able of starting at 5th level with almost all my stuff made.
#8
pithica
Sep 14, 2008 7:40:23 Umm...yeah they do...If you have all three, it's 25% off the time, XP, and Gold costs for the item. None of them affect each other, if that's what you mean.
#9
venshad
Sep 14, 2008 13:23:47 Wait, do you mean that the 3 feats add together their bonuses, but not over each other? For example an item costing 1.000 gp would be 250gp + 25 gp + 1 day of work to create?
#10
randomfellow
Sep 14, 2008 13:43:02
Wait, do you mean that the 3 feats add together their bonuses, but not over each other? For example an item costing 1.000 gp would be 250gp + 25 gp + 1 day of work to create?

No.

It is 25% off each thing seperately so with 3 feats its:

750gp + 60 XP + 1.75 Days for a 2000gp base price item.
#11
pithica
Sep 14, 2008 14:36:35 What RandomFellow said. They each effect separate things. Time, XP Cost, and Base Price. None of them affect market price, which is what all three of those things are based on.

So for a 2,000gp Market Price Item, the Base Price is normally 1,000gp; the XP cost is normally 80xp; and the Time to create is normally 2 days.

With all three feats, the Base Price is 750gp, the XP cost is 60xp, and the Time to create is 1.5 days (which get's rounded up to two anyway, so there's no real savings there; you won't actually save any time until the market price jumps above 4k gp).
#12
venshad
Sep 14, 2008 14:40:04 Yeah!

This is good news!!!!!
#13
Endarire
Sep 15, 2008 18:25:42 Player's Guide to Faerun also has the feat Magical Artisan. Taking Magic Artisan (Wondrous) applies a 25% discount in GP, XP, and time to everything to make with that feat, which is most of what you should expect to make. Ask your DM if the artisan feats stack multiplicatively (75% * 75%) or additively (half normal crafting cost).
#14
venshad
Sep 15, 2008 18:34:01
Player's Guide to Faerun also has the feat Magical Artisan. Taking Magic Artisan (Wondrous) applies a 25% discount in GP, XP, and time to everything to make with that feat, which is most of what you should expect to make. Ask your DM if the artisan feats stack multiplicatively (75% * 75%) or additively (half normal crafting cost).

I've already done that. I still haven't asked the DM about the costs, though. I'm making my calcs by half the cost, as it is a worse in relation to 75 * 75.

Thanks

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 venshad Sep 13, 2008 12:31:31	Hi! As stated by my other posts, I'm currently making an artificer for a FR game, staring soon. However my DM is somewhat strict to the amount of gold pieces we start, even if we begin at 6th (as our case). Here is my question: As an artificer, my main ability is to make things, both magical and ordinary. As this, can I spend, lets say, 5.000 XP, dropping to 5th level and sell the items I make with this XP? I'll be more clarifying: I made an armor set that costs something around 60.000 gp. I want to use some XP to make hypothetical items (prior to the game) so I can sell them for double it's creation cost and use this money to construct my armor set. Is this valid? Wrong? As DMs what should you do? Thanks for reading!
#2 pithica Sep 13, 2008 14:10:37	It's valid. Unless your DM houserules it somehow, any campaign in which you start out at a level higher than 1st you can spend the XP on item creation rather than on levels, normally. It's not normally worth it, though. You seem to have missed a little snag in your plan, which is that selling items, normally, only go for 50% of their Market Price. So, your creation costs are the selling costs of the item. So you're spending XP for a net gain of 0 gold. If, however, you take Mercantile Background, and the Artisan Feats (at least the gold and xp ones) from EBCS, you may be able to come out on top, mathematically. With those three feats, you're creation costs both in XP and Gold drop by 25% (32.5% of Market Price in Gold instead of 50%), and your sell price increases by 50% (to 75% of Market price in Gold, instead of 50%). In that way, you can double your starting cash, but you're blowing 2 feats to do so. (taking the xp reduction just means you won't spend as much XP to do so, but if you plan on playing a crafter, all three of these feats are good options anyway) EDIT: And before I forget. Taking Mercantile Background gives you an additional 300gp at starting (600gp if you pick Sembia as your starting region). It also means that EVERYTHING you sell, is at 75% instead of the normal 50%, increasing all the loot you bring in. More importantly, it means you get to make a single purchase each month at 75% of market price. Every DM I know, including me, has ruled that starting equipment can almost all (at least the major gear) be purchased this way, since there's no reason why a person with this feat wouldn't wait a month between each major equipment purchase. They are merchants, after all.
#3 venshad Sep 13, 2008 14:44:30	First, thanks for the reply! Well, I see that when selling loot you will receive just 50% of an item market price. Period. However, I'm not selling loot. IMO I'm making items and selling them as if I were a merchant (not selling to a merchant). As I started as 5th level there's nothing that says I can't have had a living as a merchant. Although there's no rule about it, isn't it logical? Thanks again!
#4 pithica Sep 13, 2008 15:04:04	Your DM can certainly rule it that way, but the actual RAW is that for players selling anything that isn't 'Trade Goods' (which is a defined list and does not include magic items), they always sell at 50% of market price, without the Mercantile Background Feat. Normally, by RAW, only NPC's can sell goods (other than trade goods) at 100% of their market price.
#5 venshad Sep 13, 2008 19:46:41	I see. Just to avoid counting with the good will of my DM, I decided to add Mercantile Background to my build, so I can get as much money as if I was selling the item by it's market price.
#6 pithica Sep 13, 2008 22:18:57	If you want a full 100% profit with stuff you make, you need both Mercantile Background (sell at 75% of Market Price), plus Extraordinary Artisan (-25% to Creation cost, or 37.5% of Market Price instead of 50%). Both of these are good feats for any crafter build, though, and worth it, if that's the way you plan on playing your character for the duration. If you can get your DM to rule that you were a 'merchant' in your previous life to save you the two feats, you may be able to convince him. But, don't be surprised if he expects you to pay taxes and rent and all the other things that NPC merchants have to pay (which is why adventurers normally only sell for 50% of Market, because they are going around the normal system).
#7 venshad Sep 14, 2008 6:10:55	Yes, thats ok. I've already added those two Feats at the progression. The bad side is that the Artisan Feat chain (Extraordinary, Legendary and Exceptional) does not stack with each other. Anyway, I'm still able of starting at 5th level with almost all my stuff made.
#8 pithica Sep 14, 2008 7:40:23	Umm...yeah they do...If you have all three, it's 25% off the time, XP, and Gold costs for the item. None of them affect each other, if that's what you mean.
#9 venshad Sep 14, 2008 13:23:47	Wait, do you mean that the 3 feats add together their bonuses, but not over each other? For example an item costing 1.000 gp would be 250gp + 25 gp + 1 day of work to create?
#10 randomfellow Sep 14, 2008 13:43:02	Wait, do you mean that the 3 feats add together their bonuses, but not over each other? For example an item costing 1.000 gp would be 250gp + 25 gp + 1 day of work to create? No. It is 25% off each thing seperately so with 3 feats its: 750gp + 60 XP + 1.75 Days for a 2000gp base price item.
#11 pithica Sep 14, 2008 14:36:35	What RandomFellow said. They each effect separate things. Time, XP Cost, and Base Price. None of them affect market price, which is what all three of those things are based on. So for a 2,000gp Market Price Item, the Base Price is normally 1,000gp; the XP cost is normally 80xp; and the Time to create is normally 2 days. With all three feats, the Base Price is 750gp, the XP cost is 60xp, and the Time to create is 1.5 days (which get's rounded up to two anyway, so there's no real savings there; you won't actually save any time until the market price jumps above 4k gp).
#12 venshad Sep 14, 2008 14:40:04	Yeah! This is good news!!!!!
#13 Endarire Sep 15, 2008 18:25:42	Player's Guide to Faerun also has the feat Magical Artisan. Taking Magic Artisan (Wondrous) applies a 25% discount in GP, XP, and time to everything to make with that feat, which is most of what you should expect to make. Ask your DM if the artisan feats stack multiplicatively (75% * 75%) or additively (half normal crafting cost).
#14 venshad Sep 15, 2008 18:34:01	Player's Guide to Faerun also has the feat Magical Artisan. Taking Magic Artisan (Wondrous) applies a 25% discount in GP, XP, and time to everything to make with that feat, which is most of what you should expect to make. Ask your DM if the artisan feats stack multiplicatively (75% * 75%) or additively (half normal crafting cost). I've already done that. I still haven't asked the DM about the costs, though. I'm making my calcs by half the cost, as it is a worse in relation to 75 * 75. Thanks