The following appears almost word-for-word as LordofProcrastination wrote it:
This thread has a very specific purpose. It is to be a nexus for all of the tricks, combinations, and builds which, if allowed as-is, can almost immediately ruin a game.
[color=blue]Disclaimer:[/color] Intentionally ruining a game is an immature and selfish thing to do. We don't condone it. However, since there is a significant demand on the CO Board for such techniques, we might as well be efficient about it.
Background: While the majority of Character Optimization either occurs in the realm of theoretical exercise or play-enhancing-build-improvement, we are continually flooded with requests for options which downright destroy the game. The requesters might be trying to prove a point to someone back home, "challenging" the capability of the CO Board in general, or just curious. The problem is that every time these requests pop up, they are either ignored or haphazardly replied to, frequently producing a whole new round of re-explanation, cross-linking, and debate. This thread aims to make the whole process a lot smoother.
Methodology: The "Campaign Smashers" thread will provide a list of major combos/builds which have the capability to utterly disrupt a game. The list will include a brief explanation of each combo/build and a link to the major thread(s) discussing them. For the combos/builds which don't have their own threads, or are hard to read/access, members of the CO community can contribute their own short write-ups/explanations which will then be inserted into the main listing.
Criteria: Deciding what really smashes a campaign is a tricky thing. Many optimized builds are really powerful or completely dominate in a single aspect of the game. However, this list will be dedicated to the ones which most directly and immediately can unbalance any semblance of reasonable play. Yes, having a +300 Jump check, top-notch spellcasting capabilities, or all-around-robustness is a major optimization success, and may even be "broken" in some respects, but it won't instantly make the character/game unplayable.
For now, we're using a working definition of a "Campaign Smasher" as: [indent][/indent] Some "benefit of the doubt" will be given to semi-disputed combos/builds. This thread isn't about debating particular options, it's about coordinating access to them.
Format: Divided by general level-availability, and then alphabetically. Note that some builds are clearly powerful both at high and low levels. Placement in the listings here is based on where they "come into their own."
- Title of Combo/Build: Executive summary of combo/build. Absolutely bare-bones.
- Links to further explanation, development, or debate. Credit to the primary/original posters.
- Bestow Power: Discounted manifesting repeated for unlimited power points.
- Explained Here and here by RadicalTaoist and psly4me
- Fission version by cyberpunk
- Explained Here and here by RadicalTaoist and psly4me
- Consumptive Field: Repeated overlapping castings of consumptive field, sometimes accompanied by a dual-caster-level-progression combo, can lead to limitless Str and CL.
- "infinate" caster level loop by deathwishjoe.
- Diplomacy Specialists: Continually high Diplomacy bonuses which render all NPC interactions entirely one-sided.
- Record Diplomacy Build by Interested2
- Dragonwrought Kobold Oldies: Kobolds with the Dragonwrought feat qualify for Epic Feats at low low level.
- The Cheesewrought Instabold by LordofProcastination et al.
- Electroshock Therapy:Changing shape into a Shambling Mound or Zeugalak and hitting oneself with a repeated source of electrical damage to produce limitless Constitution or Dexterity. Converted by other traits into outrageous bonuses elsewhere.
- The Beast by Squirrelloid
- Energy Transformation Field: A permanent spell which can produce limitless single-spell outputs in a specific location.
- Explained Here by Vanigo.
- Festering Strength: Festering Anger disease + Cancer Mage (or some other mitigation factor) to produce limitless Strength.
- Explained here by Dark Kyosuke.
- The Ghola Character: An attempt to equal the grandeur of Pun-Pun while abstaining from manipulate form.
- The Ghola Character by Tleilaxu_Ghola
- Limitless Spells per Day: The Wand Surge feat and combos for giving renewable action points results in a free spell castable every round in a day.
- Endless Spells by LordofProcrastination.
- Make a Wish: The Gate clause of the Candle of Invocation leads to wish-related hi-jinks. And by hi-jinks, we mean infinite wishes.
- The Infinite Wish Loop: Candle of Invocation Optimization by BarbeChenue.
- Nasty Gentlemen: Symbionts used to multiply the effects of spells up to thousands of times over.
- Dirty Trick #4 by LordofProcrastination
- Dirty Damage Combo by psly4me
- Dirty Trick #4 by LordofProcrastination
- Perpetual Damage Machine: A damage feedback loop which produces infinite bonuses to attacks, skills, and saves.
- Dirty Trick #2 by LordofProcrastination
- The Omniscificer by LordofProcrastination
- Dirty Trick #2 by LordofProcrastination
- Pun Pun: Use of the Sarruhk's Manipulate Form ability to acquire all capabilities in the game.
- The most powerful character. EVER by Khan the Destroyer
- The Synchronicity Shuffle: Using the synchronicity power in conjunction with Psycrystal Containment and an infinite source of power points leads to an infinite-action loop.
- Explained here by DisposableHero_.
- Tainted Spellcasting: Undead and evil-subtype characters are immune to the negative effects of Taint, which can be used in the Tainted Scholar prestige class to gain an unlimited virtual spellcasting ability.
- Explained Here by Kresalak
- Templates for Free: By either using Effigies, the tauric template or lycanthropy, it is possible to stack up a massive amount of templates for minimal LA investment.
- Mr. Roboto by deathwishjoe
- The 1d2 Crusader: Infinite damage by maxing damage on every roll thus activating Aura of Chaos with every roll.
- The 1d2 Crusader by Bassetking
- Charge-Specialization: Charge-related damage multiplication effects can be combined, outputting thousands of damage in a single round.
- Legal UberCharger by swanusd
- Outcharging the UberERCharger by Gideon_Gideonson
- UberERCharger by Tempest Stormwind
- Legal UberCharger by swanusd
- Component-Free Wishing: Combos like the Cheater of Mystra and the Dupe Tricks can provide for the repeated casting of Wish with no costly XP investment.
- Awaiting Write-up or Link (AWOL)
- Dupe Tricks: A variety of combinations can allow a character to create multiple duplicates of him/herself.
- Legion by Tleilaxu_Ghola.
- "Infinite" Stuff by Odytoboman.
- Psionic Time-Copies by DisposableHero_.
- Dirty Trick #3: Attack of the Clones by LordofProcrastination.
- Legion by Tleilaxu_Ghola.
- Emancipated Spawn Reincarnation: The Emancipated Spawn prestige class along with modes of Xp loss and retrieval enable adding up many lifetimes of experience into a single character.
- The Ascended v2 by SigmaJargon
- Forever Monty: Manipulate time to become invincible.
- The H.I.V.E: Verminlord's hivemind ability mixed with summoning swarms of creatures to add to the character's incredible spellcasting capabilities.
- The H.I.V.E. by SigmaJargon
- Hulking Hurler: The weight-based improvised-weapon damage chart combined with geometrically advancing lifting load corresponding to strength results in outrageous damage.
- The Hulking Hurler Thread by group effort
- Ice Assassin: When combined with a method of removing material components, the ice assassin spell can replicate any creature/god/character for you.
- Summary of uses listed by Tleilaxu_Ghola.
- The Jovoc Generator: An endless cycle of damage, graciously distributed to everyone nearby courtesy of the Jovocian Aura of Retribution.
- Jovoc Generator (And the Jovocian Bomb theory) listed by Lyinginbedmon.
- Multi-Evolved Undead: Undead control followed by hyper-aging to accrue stacking applications of the Evolved Undead template for a super-minion.
- Juju Mastery by SigmaJargon
- Nanobots: Uses hundreds or thousands of helpers to produce skill, attack, and AC bonuses ranging from the hundreds to the hundreds of thousands.
- Nanobots Conquer D&D by LordofProcrastination
- Nanoaffinity by RadicalTaoist
- Nanobots Conquer D&D by LordofProcrastination
- True Creation Economics: A repeat-use command item of True Creation can effectively produce limitless quantities of valuable goods, exchangeable for gold.
- Low on Cash? by Gideon_Gideonson
- Wish/Word: Two builds which mis/ab/re-use the wording of the Wish spell and the Holy Word/Blasphemy set of spells.
- The Wish and the Word by K and Frank Trollman
- Epic Verminlord: Combination of the Verminlord's hivemind ability and Epic Leadership for a humongous hivemind.
- Infinite Everything with the Epic Vermin Lord by Gideon_Gideonson
- Epic Spells with Follower Mitigation: Epic leadership garners hundred or thousands of followers, who can each contribute spells in the ritual casting of a created epic spell, reducing the price of the spell and enabling massive epic-seed combinations into a single power spell of negligible cost.
- Awaiting Write-up or Link (AWOL)
- Permanent Emanation: Learn an immensely powerful and nearly uncastable Epic Spell, then take Permanent Emanation for fun and profit.
- Post #42 by psly4mne
And Now...
This is going to be a growing list. No doubt I've missed some worthy entries and no doubt more will grow over time. By all means, please post to fill in the blanks or expand the ranks. And remember, next time someone asks for "teh most bahroken stuff CO can doo!!," save yourself the trouble and send them here.
- Behold!: Through use of Polymorph any Object and Metamorphic Transfer, characters can qualify for Beholder Mage, a kickarse class.
- Behold! by LordofProcrastination.
- Cheater of Mystra: A build which features top-notch metamagic cleric spellcasting and supernatural spells.
- The Cheater of Mystra thread by Funny Slaughter and Neonsamurai.
- Explosive Rune Collecting: Explosive runes can be made in large quantities, then exploded all at once with an intentional dispel magic.
- A basic explanation by soulbergb.
- Follower Casting: Uses Epic Leadership and additional casters to drop immensely high DC spells to easy-to-cast levels.
- Followers and Epic Spells by sCRuLooSe.
- Hannibal Lector: An invulnerability build using Illithid Savant.
- hannibal lector by deathwishjoe.
- Mercantile Background: Using this feat with team resource consolidation, Leadership, or the Thrallherd prestige class results in a significant advantage in gold gain.
- Awaiting Write-up or Link (AWOL)
- Thrallherd sacrifice version by Vikjunk
- Awaiting Write-up or Link (AWOL)
- Mind Switch: Versatile power that lets you pick and choose bodies and capabilities.
- More fun than a barrel of Monkeys by Tleilaxu_Ghola.
- Stacking combo explained by Tleilaxu_Ghola.
- More fun than a barrel of Monkeys by Tleilaxu_Ghola.
- Multipounce: The Telflammar Shadowlord prestige class plus other teleportation powers to gain multiple full-attacks in a round.
- Psionic Shadowlord by DisposableHero_.
- Save Game: Create a "Save Game" point that you can return to in case things go badly.
- Dirty Trick #5: "Save" Game Mechanics by Tleilaxu_Ghola
- Spell-Level Hijinks: Sanctum Spell and other feats can adjust up or down a spell's effective level, enabling a variety of wily tricks.
- Sanctum Spell + Affinity Field by Tleilaxu_Ghola et al.
- Miracle at Level 6 by DisposableHero_
- Sanctum Spell + Affinity Field by Tleilaxu_Ghola et al.
- The Twice Betrayer: Trick for expanded persistification capability and an invulnerability combo.
- The Twice Betrayer of Shar by LordofProcrastination.
7/31/07
Added "Jovoc Generator" to the list
"Energy Transformation Field" has moved up from Semi-smasher
Added "Candle of Invocation"
Added "Monty"
8/2/07
Added "1d2 Crusader"
Added Epic Leadership/Epic Spellcasting combo
"Component Free Wishing" has moved up from Semi-smasher
Added "Outcharging the UberER Charger" to Charge builds
Added "The Ghola Character"
Added "Behold!"
Added "Dirty Trick #5: 'Save' Game Mechanics"
Added Permanent Emanation trick
Thanks in advance. Posting may now begin.
[thread=777565]The Ghola Character[/thread]
[thread=540563]Behold![/thread] (semi-smasher?)
[thread=737126]Save Game mechanics[/thread] (semi-smasher?)
[thread=705721]Candle of Invocation[/thread]
[thread=347044]Permanent Emanation abuse[/thread] (scroll down to my first post)
Energy Transformation Field should really be a full smasher, not a semi-smasher.
You should include a link to the original. Also, I think your last post should say "posting may now begin"
Anyway, it never mentions a build that I could see. Any ideas at what level it can be accomplished?
Also, while impressive, the Permenant Emanation really falls more in line with the Epic Spell/Leadership abuse. Once we find a link to that thread (or a new one about it), I think that should cover it.
About your builds...Monty is in, but the others I'm not sure about. Infinite cohorts is a nice one, but may rely on to much DM interpretation. Without such DM rules, it's actually a pretty easy one to catch.
The Thief one is interesting, but seems more like a neat trick that a way to smash a campaign.
Opinions?
To get something on this list, remember to post a link to the thread. I do not have time to go thread-hunting for something.
Thanks in advance. Posting may now begin.
I really don't want to have to go hunting for stuff. I don't know where most of this is, and haven't seen most of it to begin with. If you can, PLEASE post a link.
While his work impresses me, I must admit that the Ghola character gives me a headache. Probably the first post. :D
Anyway, it never mentions a build that I could see. Any ideas at what level it can be accomplished?
The intention is to get it down to level 1, but it's not there yet. I'm pretty sure it's done by level 10 anyway, so you can put it in the 1-10 section. As for the readability, that's just T_G's style. Too much overcomplication.
Also, while impressive, the Permenant Emanation really falls more in line with the Epic Spell/Leadership abuse. Once we find a link to that thread (or a new one about it), I think that should cover it.
It's really a different abuse, showcasing Permanent Emanation more than Epic Spellcasting. Your call though. Also, I'm pretty sure someone did at least a partial writeup of Epic Spellcasting / Mitigation in the original thread, after LoP stopped upd
ated the OP.
About your builds...Monty is in, but the others I'm not sure about. Infinite cohorts is a nice one, but may rely on to much DM interpretation. Without such DM rules, it's actually a pretty easy one to catch.
The Thief one is interesting, but seems more like a neat trick that a way to smash a campaign.
Yeah, good call on those. I'm just fond of the thief trick because it was one of my first ideas in optimization.
I skimmed the builds portion of the Handy Links thread for recent material and posted what I found.
Non-charge-based infinite damage, produced through a combination of the Aura of Chaos stance, and the feat "Imbued Healing: Luck"
Level 12, infinite damage on hit. Smasher.
Here's a newer submission, utilising the wealth/level rules to achieve nigh-infinite wealth and a global workforce: The Monstrous Workforce. Available at exactly level 5.
Here is the link for epic spellcasting writeup I did a while back in the old smasher thread.
Epic Spellcasting with Leadership
Also, would we consider the Epic Spellcasting trick to be Campaign Smashing or only Semi-Smashing? It's rather tame by most of the Epic Smashing standards, but it's still really powerful. I'm kind of torn.
The Monstrous Workforce is interesting, but not exactly Campaign Smashing due to the sheer amount of time involved. Unless I get a lot of people saying otherwise, I'm not sure it merits a spot, interesting though it is.
Opinions?
Also, the formatting of the list keeps getting messed up whatever I do. I have NO idea what's wrong. See the 1d2 Crusader entry for an example. Any ideas on how to fix that?
sCRuLooSe: Thanks for that link. Would you mind editting to include something about the Permenant Emanation feat? I think it belongs in that write-up rather than making a new link simply for it, since to really break it requires the Epic Leadership trick to begin with.
Also, would we consider the Epic Spellcasting trick to be Campaign Smashing or only Semi-Smashing? It's rather tame by most of the Epic Smashing standards, but it's still really powerful. I'm kind of torn.
Opinions?
Breaking Permanent Emanation does not require Epic Leadership. The whole point is that, since you never have to actually cast the spell chosen, you don't need to be able to producer the helper casters (if you use a ritual spell) or the XP (if you use a spell with an XP cost). That's why ES+PE is so much more broken than ES+EL. You can just research a spell that costs any amount of XP and get the effect, rather than finding followers and starting a feedback loop.
For this reason, I would consider the Leadership version a semi-smasher, and the Emanation version a smasher.
I'll fix that just as soon as I figure out my formatting problem...I can't seem to add anything in front of the rest without it breaking the list format.
Ah. Somehow I missed that part of it.
I'll fix that just as soon as I figure out my formatting problem...I can't seem to add anything in front of the rest without it breaking the list format.
You seem to be adding {list} tags. There should only be one {list} tag at the beginning of the whole list, so if you want to add something at the beginning of the list, you have to put it after the {list} tag. To add something at the end, likewise put it before the {/list} tag. I hope that helps.
EDIT: Fixed. Thanks again.
Again...opinions? Is it in or not?
Also listed as AWOL are the component-free wish tricks. Since this entry is not a single trick, you should include several links:
[thread=655556]Shadowcraft Mage Handbook[/thread] by NineInchNall
[thread=248239]Cheater of Mystra[/thread] by Funny Slaughter
I'm sure there are more.
Mercantile Background is listed as AWOL. I'm not sure what trick that was referring to.
[thread=755481]Shadow's Hidden Power[/thread] (tiluvias99) might qualify as a smasher or semi-smasher.
edit:Maybe add Planar Shepherd in the semi-smashers cat.? I'm not sure, but it's at least on the bubble
And thanks for updating this!
sCRuLooSe: Thanks for that link. Would you mind editting to include something about the Permenant Emanation feat? I think it belongs in that write-up rather than making a new link simply for it, since to really break it requires the Epic Leadership trick to begin with.
If you would like me to, I will; but I tend to agree with psly4mne. These are two different ways to break Epic, and should probably each get their own thread. I would consider them both to be smashers, but using Permenant Emanation to bypass casting the spell entirely is a faster break. Using Epic Leadership to actually cast the spell may take more preparation, but once you have the combo cast, your CR jumps well beyond your level.
I would also second the Planar Shepherd, although I consider it a full smasher, for the temporal abuses primarily. Here is the link to the handbook
Planar Shepherd Handbook
I would also propose the use of White Raven Tactics by 2 warblades on one another granting the characters infinite attacks to be a semi-smasher. This can be accomplished by two characters by 5th level (you only need one person if you choose to ignore the new sage ruling). Unfortunately, I do not have a link to a thread that directly describes how to do this. Basically, one of two warblades uses his swift action to give a secon warblade a new initiative that round, makes a single attack, and reset his maneuvers. The other warblade returns the favor on his new action. Rinse and repeat. This assumes a character gets one swift action when they receive initiative, not one swift action per turn.
sCRuLooSe, nevermind the spell stuff. I worked it in as it is, and it's fine.
I'm very sad. No-one ever cares about my baby.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12657563&postcount=321
Also the King of smack should probably be there, don't have the link tho
The King of Smack is quite far from being a campaign smasher, or even a semi-smasher. It's just a good build.
really, I remember him being really good, maybe its because he was the first optimized build I saw.
That said, Chuck is certainly better. It doesn't take anywhere near as many resources to pull off (except in the extreme case presented; one could say *exactly* the same thing about the UberERcharger, which is at its core just a simple lancer) and thus can be more robust in other areas.
Epic Sleight of Hand to move other person 10 ft as a free action. Then they do the same. Quick Draw, assuming the feat works backwards (which I'd say has a good reason not to), lets you steal anything in the universe along the way. Your arms would probably turn to mush.
Quick Draw does not work backwards, and there is no official "quick sheath" feat.
So it's not so much "steal everything" as "strew everything about" since dropping things is a free action.
Just use Sleight of Hand to conceal the objects you grab on your person, taking a -20 penalty to do so as a free action. There's not even a set DC for it; it's just opposed by a Spot check for anyone who wants to notice where they are (and you probably don't care if anyone sees where they are).
Eeeeeeexcellent...
Yeah...it exists. The first few versions got shot down, but T_G reincarnated it a while ago (I think he used Triad Spell combined with free metamagic cheese to get a ton of Absorptions, which he discharged as Triad Absorptions and Arcane Fusions of damaging spells into himself, gaining more slots for Triad Absorptions...). Yeah, you'd have to ask him.
You mean the Arcane Nova?
Yeah...it exists. The first few versions got shot down, but T_G reincarnated it a while ago (I think he used Triad Spell combined with free metamagic cheese to get a ton of Absorptions, which he discharged as Triad Absorptions and Arcane Fusions of damaging spells into himself, gaining more slots for Triad Absorptions...). Yeah, you'd have to ask him.
No, it isn't Arcane Nova... and Absorption doesn't figure in it. It's a Bard-based build... I think I'll post it.
This costs about 7700 gp or so; I don't have the paper in front of me. It's cheaper with iterative uses, as the glue, the bag, and the rope (if it's at all magical) are undamaged by the nonmagical fire. Also, fabricate is a good way to make alot of alchemist's fire pretty quick.
One problem I can foresee is if the DM rules that there is no "back" of the bag, and you can continue feeding rope into it until the volume of the rope in the bag equals 30ft^3 (which of course wouldn't leave any room for alchemist fire). So yeah, basically alot of words for a simple, and probably flawed, idea. Rip it apart, guys!
One problem I can foresee is if the DM rules that there is no "back" of the bag, and you can continue feeding rope into it until the volume of the rope in the bag equals 30ft^3 (which of course wouldn't leave any room for alchemist fire). So yeah, basically alot of words for a simple, and probably flawed, idea. Rip it apart, guys!
Personally, I'm of a mindset that multiple applications of alchemist's fire in a single attack don't all inflict their full dice of damage simultaneously. I don't think there's any rule prohibiting it, but common sense would have to win out, I would think.
But hey, that's just me.
Personally, I'm of a mindset that multiple applications of alchemist's fire in a single attack don't all inflict their full dice of damage simultaneously. I don't think there's any rule prohibiting it, but common sense would have to win out, I would think.
But hey, that's just me.
"Common sense" is kind of a foreign concept for this board... whose entire purpose is to find weird ways to break the rules. Of course the vast majority of this stuff would never be allowed in a real game. That's kind of the point...
One problem I can foresee is if the DM rules that there is no "back" of the bag, and you can continue feeding rope into it until the volume of the rope in the bag equals 30ft^3 (which of course wouldn't leave any room for alchemist fire). So yeah, basically alot of words for a simple, and probably flawed, idea. Rip it apart, guys!
You could just crawl into the bag and attach the rope by hand.
Heck, why not just attach the rope to the bottom of the bag, on the outside? I'm pretty sure you can dump their contents out by turning them upside down, right?
This is something that came to me the other day... certainly not a campaign-smasher (to be honest, I was proud of coming up with it, but when I got on these forums I felt a bit... outclassed? ;) ). Anyway, a lesser bag of holding can hold 250lbs or 30 cubic feet (whichever comes first). I would think it's safe to assume that if you dangled a rope into one, it would be 30 feet to the "back wall" of it. Then, you take a rope of the appropriate length (with about a foot to spare), dip one end in some sovereign glue, and lower it into the bag until it is secure on the far side. Your next step is getting all the air out of the bag. The DMG say that there is "ten minutes of air" inside a bag, which is pretty vague considering different creatures will have different oxygen requirements. Anyway, I would think putting a creature inside and waiting ten minutes should get rid of it. Then you take your 250 servings of alchemist fire (you probably saw that coming) and find a way to get it into the bag without introducing any air (as alchemist fire is, I believe, ignited upon contact with air). The result? You hold the extra foot of rope, throw the bag 30'. When it reaches the end of its rope, its inertia will turn it inside out (no ruling there, just how I perceive physics to operate) depositing the 250 servings of alchemist fire on its target (which, on a direct hit, is enough average dice damage to kill a tarrasque [minus the miracle/wish portion]).
This costs about 7700 gp or so; I don't have the paper in front of me. It's cheaper with iterative uses, as the glue, the bag, and the rope (if it's at all magical) are undamaged by the nonmagical fire. Also, fabricate is a good way to make alot of alchemist's fire pretty quick.
One problem I can foresee is if the DM rules that there is no "back" of the bag, and you can continue feeding rope into it until the volume of the rope in the bag equals 30ft^3 (which of course wouldn't leave any room for alchemist fire). So yeah, basically alot of words for a simple, and probably flawed, idea. Rip it apart, guys!
Cool idea. Erm... Prestidigitation can fill in mind gray areas like, how to put it in the bag without air entering. Around the same vein as placing hurtful objects in miniature portable containers or shrinking them and letting their full force be unleashed at the right moment. We need to compile a list of ways a Commoner 20 could actually be a viable PC with ingenuity.
Not sure if it qualifies, but I thought I'd apply.
It was a good thought, however. There's also the fact that the objects in the bag are in a non-dimensional space, not in your space. Ergo, they don't have inertia or velocity. If they did, if you were walking and suddenly stopped, 250 lbs of stuff in the bag at your side would probably drag you off your feet as it kept moving.
===Aerlyinth
Bestow Power:RadicalTaoist,psly4me,cyberpunk
The Cheesewrought Instabold
Festering Strength: Dark Kyosuke
The Ghola Character
Dirty Trick #2
The Omniscificer
The Synchronicity Shuffle:DisposableHero_
Tainted Spellcasting:Kresalak
Can I get my infinite damage at 1st level thread added?
Not sure if it qualifies, but I thought I'd apply.
I second that.
Some of the links on the OP are dead.
Some of the links on the OP go to White Screen Of Death.
someone want to find them ??
Eighth-Red Dragon, Eighth-Green Dragon, Eighth-Stone Golem, Eighth-Clay Golem. Captured One (take your pick). Carry around an item of Antimagic Field for extra annoyance. As it is, he's immune to damage and magic. ECL 17, if I recall correctlly.
I may as well add my unkillable Troll...
Eighth-Red Dragon, Eighth-Green Dragon, Eighth-Stone Golem, Eighth-Clay Golem. Captured One (take your pick). Carry around an item of Antimagic Field for extra annoyance. As it is, he's immune to damage and magic. ECL 17, if I recall correctlly.
Well... not really. First of all, you can't really play as one very well (you'd need a rather silly DM, ) and DM can whip out unkillable opponents anyway. Besides, a half-green Wartroll is a better base, IMO.
Would an Assassin... yes, an assassin's death attack could still work, presuming the creature has discernible anatomy, although I think it may have gone Construct type from half-golem templates. Hm.
Are there feats which let SA work on constructs?
A simpler one is just a Quarter-Red Dragon Quarter-Clay Golem Captured One Troll. Half-Clay Golem gives immunity to magic and gives Acid Healing, plus the flat immunity to Slashing and Piercing.
Although, you COULD always just kill the Raggamoffyn and THEN the troll, since they keep different HP totals and the Raggamoffyn doesn't gain the troll's special abilities.
EDIT: My complicated version that dodges that weakness, but has one of its own, quoted from an old thread.
The final creature is an Incarnate Construct-Warforged Scout (the creature in MM3, not a Warforged with Scout levels) Fighter 10/Psychic Warrior 1/Warforged Juggernaut 2 as the guest in a Symbiotic creature with a host consisting of a Yellow Musk Zombie-Half Clay Golem-War Troll that succeeded on its Will save.
Incarnate Construct gives us humanoid type, Warforged Juggernaut 2 gives us immunity to nonlethal damage, Symbiotic Creature gives us the special qualities of both creatures, Yellow Musk Zombie gives us Plant type, Half-Clay Golem gives us acid immunity/healing as well as immunity to magic, and War Troll gives us regeneration overcome only by acid. The final CR is 16: 12 for the Troll's base, +3 for Half-Golem, +0 for Yellow Musk Zombie, for 15, plus 1 for being a mixed pair with a CR 13 creature.
EDIT: Of course, it dies in 61+1d4 days after being created, and can't leave a 100 ft radius of its creator plant before then. Anybody know how to remove a special quality from a creature?
(I've put hyphens between different templates/base creatures for clarity)
Well... not really. First of all, you can't really play as one very well.
Completely game-legal. Just to note, it still has a Con score. Half-Golem doesn't have to grant Construct traits. So it has regen and Construct traits.
Besides, a half-green Wartroll is a better base, IMO.
Yours is Epic, mine isn't. EL 11+3+3< EL 21 | EL18+3=EL 21
As a side, it should be pointed out that there's no damage type that can touch him because of his regen and he's immune to subdual damage. Also, no magic can get past his overlaping magic immunities.:D
Also, no magic can get past his overlaping magic immunities.
Ohhhhh, THAT'S what a pair of Half-golem Templates are for. I missed that.
Ohhhhh, THAT'S what a pair of Half-golem Templates are for. I missed that.
I was kinda proud of that one. :D
This is the beginning of a thrallherd combo. My addition is the 2 druid thralls. A psion 5, thrallherd 10 that can bring 14th & 13th lvl druids, both of their animal companions, and a 16 HD astral construct (in the 2nd round) should be worthy of a semi-breaker. You may outnumber your group, 2 of which are the disputed best class. Work in undead thralls and dreadmaster, and you bring a small army with you. Its not really a specific build, but the main post said this is a guide to broken combos, not a critique forum.
er, regen + subdual immunity --> fast healing. Anyone got the ruling?
It was ruled that if, via regeneration, you become immune to a dmg type, then regeneration is simply fast healing.
I.e. a troll with fire and acid immunity has fast healing, not regeneration.
===Aelryinth
Also, no magic can get past his overlaping magic immunities.:D
I didn't check your templates, but how do you avoid the Searing Spell'ed Orb of Fire ?
And then there's Vile damage.
It was ruled that if, via regeneration, you become immune to a dmg type, then regeneration is simply fast healing.
I.e. a troll with fire and acid immunity has fast healing, not regeneration.
===Aelryinth
Where?
And, as a side note, drop the immunities, he's immune to subdual anyway. Just buy a couple Rings of Energy Immunity. They're expensive, probably out of his purchasing power, but really, since he has an Antimagic Field around him permenantly, it won't matter too much. It'll be hard to hit him with magic that could duck past his immunities.
Did you not see my post above ?
Searing Spell (PHB2) partially bypasses Fire immunity.
Orb of Fire (SC) is an instantaneous conjuration with SR:No so it bypasses the AMF and the Magic Immunity.
*nudges OokamiKiba*
Did you not see my post above ?
Searing Spell (PHB2) partially bypasses Fire immunity.
Orb of Fire (SC) is an instantaneous conjuration with SR:No so it bypasses the AMF and the Magic Immunity.
I saw, that's why the guy carries his item of Antimagic Field. He doesn't like things that can bypass his immunity to magic. By the way, can your spell get past two golems' magic immunity (they're mutually exclusive :D)
Orb of Fire (SC) is an instantaneous conjuration with SR:No so it bypasses the AMF and the Magic Immunity.
The sad (ok, not really) truth is that full immunity to damage is impossible to obtain at reasonable levels.
Reading assignment:
- the AMF spell
- any Golem's Magic Immunity quality
The sad (ok, not really) truth is that full immunity to damage is impossible to obtain at reasonable levels.
Reading assignment:
- the AMF spell
- any Golem's Magic Immunity quality
Bypasses AMF? I'm pretty sure that AMF simply negates magic.
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.
Not to mention that he's immue to fire/acid/etc
Genesis (arcane version) lets you create anything you can imagine in the environment of the created plane. This includes planar traits... such as Flowing Time. By making a Flowing Time 100,000 plane, you get many days in the time when others get single rounds. Add in Timeless and you don't age faster. From here, open up gates to attack whatever you want, and your targets can't react at all.
JaronK
I didn't see it mentioned, so I might as well do so here.
Genesis (arcane version) lets you create anything you can imagine in the environment of the created plane. This includes planar traits... such as Flowing Time. By making a Flowing Time 100,000 plane, you get many days in the time when others get single rounds. Add in Timeless and you don't age faster. From here, open up gates to attack whatever you want, and your targets can't react at all.
JaronK
Oooooh. I like.
Gate opens
Suprise Round:Maximized, Widened, Enlarged, Empowered Evocation, Maximized, Widened, Enlarged, Empowered Evocation, Quickened, Maximized, Widened, Enlarged, Empowered Evocation, Quickened Gate x4 (Legion Devils), etc...
One hundred thousand swift actions later: Portal closes
Survivors? Nahh...
Bypasses AMF? I'm pretty sure that AMF simply negates magic.
Not to mention that he's immue to fire/acid/etc
The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.
(yes, it's strange, but it's RAW)
And Searing Spell bypasses the immunity partially (deals 1/2 damage).
*grumbles*
When I give sources and reading assignments you can check them out...
(yes, it's strange, but it's RAW)
And Searing Spell bypasses the immunity partially (deals 1/2 damage).
*grumbles*
When I give sources and reading assignments you can check them out...
Subdual... weeeee (immune)
It's fire damage he's not immune to. It bypasses Regeneration.
Before you go looking for Regeneration that's only bypassed by acid, Vile damage always bypasses Regen, as well as Trollbane (Dungeonscape, alchemical item).
I feel bad for polluting this thread, but...
It's fire damage he's not immune to. It bypasses Regeneration.
Before you go looking for Regeneration that's only bypassed by acid, Vile damage always bypasses Regen, as well as Trollbane (Dungeonscape, alchemical item).
Ok, he'll spend the rest of his wealth on healing. Not really an issue since it'll be rare time he'll need it.
Where?
And, as a side note, drop the immunities, he's immune to subdual anyway. Just buy a couple Rings of Energy Immunity. They're expensive, probably out of his purchasing power, but really, since he has an Antimagic Field around him permenantly, it won't matter too much. It'll be hard to hit him with magic that could duck past his immunities.
Wait, did you just say he buys a pair of magic rings to use in an anti-magic field?
Ok, he'll spend the rest of his wealth on healing. Not really an issue since it'll be rare time he'll need it.
While I'm at it, a question of my own:
where did you get the LA for the Half-Golem and Captured One templates ? The MM2 update says LA - but I assume there's a later printing.
You mentioned the build was ECL 17, which could imply you think LA - is equivalent to LA +0... that would be funny. (Hint for the unwary: LA - means it doesn't have a defined LA, i.e. it's not playable by PCs.)
Also, what does the build contribute to a party ?
While I'm at it, a question of my own:
where did you get the LA for the Half-Golem and Captured One templates ? The MM2 update says LA - but I assume there's a later printing.
You mentioned the build was ECL 17, which could imply you think LA - is equivalent to LA +0... that would be funny. (Hint for the unwary: LA - means it doesn't have a defined LA, i.e. it's not playable by PCs.)
One problem. Half-Golem, by RAW, can be used by PCs. If it has an LA of "-" then there's something wrong here, because PCs can use it.
In the original MM2, yes. The update to 3.5 wisely gave them LA - : immunity to magic is not very appropriate for players. Too much of an advantage and too much of a hindrance (how do you teleport/planeshift ? it's only possible if you are the caster. Healing is not fun either.).
Once again, it's appliable. The fact that it'd be a hindrence is something that a PC would have to think about. Most wouldn't and would regret it. Regarless, the wording of the template makes it clear that it's designed to be player-usable. If it isn't, then listing a lot of the fluff (among other things) would make it pointless. Not to mention that requiring saves to avoid becoming a construct is stupid if no one would ever need to roll it. DMs can just choose the outcome they want, so it becomes a moot point.
As a side note, your fire will simply slow him for 2d6 rounds. He can wait. You'll run out of spells eventually.
Once again, it's appliable. The fact that it'd be a hindrence is something that a PC would have to think about. Most wouldn't and would regret it. Regarless, the wording of the template makes it clear that it's designed to be player-usable. If it isn't, then listing a lot of the fluff (among other things) would make it pointless. Not to mention that requiring saves to avoid becoming a construct is stupid if no one would ever need to roll it. DMs can just choose the outcome they want, so it becomes a moot point.
I'm not sure what you expect from me. LA - means not playable ; talk to your DM to make it playable if you want but we deal with RAW here.
But I'm pretty sure Captured One is not meant to be played (Bauglir seems to confirm that) and it's fairly integral to your combo, right ?
Trollsbane is poison. Constructs are immune to poison. The creature has Construct traits, and so is immune to Trollsbane. We can start with a War Troll if you'd prefer, which negates the Searing Spell vulnerability, even if the DM allows an equivalent feat for Acid damage (which now heals you, thanks to Half-Clay Golem). Makes the ECL epic, but the CR stays low enough that it can still be fun for a DM (although, in all fairness, the Captured One template pretty much means it HAS to be an NPC). I'm also not seeing where it says that Vile damage overcomes Regeneration. Yes, it only heals in a holy area, but the creature never takes the damage in the first place so it doesn't need to heal.
Apologies if I was wrong. I'm AFB right now so I can't check.
A DM should use them if it rocks his boat. I'm simply pointing out (theoretical) DM counter-tactics if a player tries to use those.
I haven't mentioned one of my favorites, which is Gate (travel) + a bull-rush to a desolate plane/demi-plane, leaving the poor thing stranded - Invincibility is overrated when you can't go anywhere. Given the LAs, this kind of build is also fair game for a supernatural Holy Word/Blasphemy, but that's cheese of its own.
Oh, and I said before that I wasn't considering epic.
edit: and I still wonder how these builds are campaign-smashers given that their abilities are extremely passive.
But I'm pretty sure Captured One is not meant to be played (Bauglir seems to confirm that) and it's fairly integral to your combo, right ?
As far as I know, the template implies that it's an NPC, in fact it says it...almost. It could, in theory, be playable, just if you don't mind being a really, really wierd thing...:D
But really, as far as I can tell, the easiest way to annoy him is the Gate-him-into-nowhere plan. If you can manage to do it outside his AMF then he's really, quite helpless when he lands. :D
Also, Never, EVER allow a party of Legion Devils :D...or someone to have Gate LEARN of Legion Devils. 64 of the guys will wipe the Tarrasque off the face of the Material Plane if you give them weapons. If some jerk (read: me) ever thinks of the idea of giving them Half-Troll?
Now we have a pool of 1280 hp that has Fast Healing 320.
And yeah, Gate + bullrush is pretty much a win. As is Supernatural Blasphemy; it's immune to the death and paralysis, but weakening (somehow) and daze still work, giving you ample time to run away/making its attacks easier to absorb.
I'd imagine, however, a creature that can walk into any given royal palace and murder everyone in the place before the wizard has time to get there and cast the gate spell would be fairly campaign smashing. This discounts, of course, magocracies and kings who have wizards always on hand. So actually only minor kingdoms. Still pretty annoying. Best used as a means of forcing those characters who are campaign smashers by right of doing obscene damage into compliance, however.
Apologies if I sounded overly condescending. Half the time I'm talking to idiots, and the other half I'm talking to reasonable people, and occasionally the proper attitude for one bleeds into the other. This is something I have to work on.
I wasn't shocked by your tone at all. I still haven't checked :embarrass but I'd rather people tell me when I'm wrong.
And yeah, Gate + bullrush is pretty much a win. As is Supernatural Blasphemy; it's immune to the death and paralysis, but weakening (somehow) and daze still work, giving you ample time to run away/making its attacks easier to absorb.
Oh, I forgot the death by Blasphemy was only for living creatures. How troublesome.
Actually, are you not still living ? Any creature with a Con score is living, no ?
If not, I guess the only way I can think of to kill it (without attacking the raggamuffyn) right now is a Supernatural Greater Humanoid Essence (RoE) followed by any kind of supernatural save-or-die (targetting Fort makes that part easy).
I'd imagine, however, a creature that can walk into any given royal palace and murder everyone in the place before the wizard has time to get there and cast the gate spell would be fairly campaign smashing. This discounts, of course, magocracies and kings who have wizards always on hand. So actually only minor kingdoms. Still pretty annoying.
But at this high a level most wizards can do the same.
Shapechange+Veil of Undeath+Energy Immunity makes you invulnerable to most damage (not the combos I listed though). Ghostform and/or Superior Invisibility to go wherever. You have other spells to deal with the rest.
Best used as a means of forcing those characters who are campaign smashers by right of doing obscene damage into compliance, however.
That I like. :D
"Your 1d2 Crusader strikes. The creature grins."
Majere Crystalblaze - The Savant Priest
I hope yes...