The topic was about if a creature could take a template multiple times.
I brought up the paragraph in libris mortis,at the involved undead section,in order to justify my opinion of the templates not stacking with themselves.
It only brought disaster as the paragraph worded:unlike most temlates this one can be added multiple times which implies that template stacking was something seen before.
So apart from this note is there anything anywhere to support me in the argument that templates don't stack with themselves (else I am going to have the time of my life seeing the players bitting themselves endlessly while roleplaying the issue).
what do you mean by stacking with itself? you mean a werewolf getting further infected with lycanthropy and thus bestowing the bonuses again for being a lycanthrope? i'm gonn say no. you're already a werewolf and can't werewolf any more. i think they men the template can stack with other types of templates. also, isn't a werewolf immune to lycanthropy anyway?
What you wrote is what I am trying to lawfully prove with the the precence of something writen implying that I am right.Do you have anything like that in mind?
PS:There is nothing even implying that the werewolf is immune to lycanthropy (even his own).
Whats he trying to point out is that by RAW there is at least one template that DOES stack with itself and can be gained multiple times.
Evolved Undead stats: "Unlike most templates, an evolved undead can potentially acquire this template more than once, evolving more with each application."
To answer your question, no a lycanthrope couldn't bite himself to infinite HP as almost every template in exhistence specifically states that you can only gain it once.
In all honesty I believe the Evolved Undead template to be one of the most dangerous template merely for the fact that an undead who lives long enough can potentially gain this up to 100 times. (Since the percentile die stops at 100% it would presumably be foolish to continue gaining the template afterwards.) But if a DM really wants an epic world ending monster.... an undead with +100 bonus to AC, powerful 12 at will spell like abilities usable multiple times a day, Fast Healing 300, +200 Str, and +200 Cha.... ye that would put a damper on any epic party.
And the Evolved Undead templatex100 would be the worst epic monster ever unless it had some HD to back that up. Too easy to just Holy word it to oblivion. Or turn. Or Glass strike.
I know what he pointed out, I just answered to the topic title and the answer is no, he cannot continue to do that by RAW.
And the Evolved Undead templatex100 would be the worst epic monster ever unless it had some HD to back that up. Too easy to just Holy word it to oblivion. Or turn. Or Glass strike.
Or get hit with a metamagic'd up 4 digit scorching ray.
Whats he trying to point out is that by RAW there is at least one template that DOES stack with itself and can be gained multiple times.
Evolved Undead stats: "Unlike most templates, an evolved undead can potentially acquire this template more than once, evolving more with each application."
To answer your question, no a lycanthrope couldn't bite himself to infinite HP as almost every template in exhistence specifically states that you can only gain it once.
In all honesty I believe the Evolved Undead template to be one of the most dangerous template merely for the fact that an undead who lives long enough can potentially gain this up to 100 times. (Since the percentile die stops at 100% it would presumably be foolish to continue gaining the template afterwards.) But if a DM really wants an epic world ending monster.... an undead with +100 bonus to AC, powerful 12 at will spell like abilities usable multiple times a day, Fast Healing 300, +200 Str, and +200 Cha.... ye that would put a damper on any epic party.
Where does it spesifically states that you can gain a template once?
The only thing that would suggest that is the logic that the system is built upon ,but the subjective nature of this statement makes it invalid in any argument about RAW.
Still if there is even a sliver of hope,I take it.Please give me a line from any (official, 3,5 ,D&D)book that even implies the forbidance of using the same template multiple times.
The Evolved Undead template text is really explicit. It is an exception to the rule, just like it reads there. There is a specific part that states it is an exceptional template, because it can be taken multiple times. It doesn't get any more RAW than that.
To sum up: Bonuses from the same source don't stack and the Evolved Undead template is explicitly mentioned to deviate from the norm, because it can be taken multiple times. If the exception is that it can be taken multiple times, then what is the norm? This isn't rocket science.
Edit: Because I am pretty sure even the stuff I just wrote isn't going to be enough, I will post a little mind game.
Templates, by default, either stack or do not stack. Two options. From this we have to select which one is right. Then a specific template says that it is an exception and it does indeed stack with itself. A reasonable man might say that case is now closed, templates do not stack. This is because the both the exception and the default cannot be the same.
Let's make this simple. Bonuses from the same source do not stack. Werewolf template is a source. Therefore Werewolf templates do not stack.
The Evolved Undead template text is really explicit. It is an exception to the rule, just like it reads there. There is a specific part that states it is an exceptional template, because it can be taken multiple times. It doesn't get any more RAW than that.
To sum up: Bonuses from the same source don't stack and the Evolved Undead template is explicitly mentioned to deviate from the norm, because it can be taken multiple times. If the exception is that it can be taken multiple times, then what is the norm? This isn't rocket science.
Edit: Because I am pretty sure even the stuff I just wrote isn't going to be enough, I will post a little mind game.
Templates, by default, either stack or do not stack. Two options. From this we have to select which one is right. Then a specific template says that it is an exception and it does indeed stack with itself. A reasonable man might say that case is now closed, templates do not stack. This is because the both the exception and the default cannot be the same.
If you go to my first post ,you will see that this was what I brought up in the first place but I was turned down as the involved undead template says unlike most other templates implying it is not the only one.As for the templates probably due to type changes very little of them actually stacks with itself.
In short some templates have no other rule stopping them from stacking and the involved undead text could either denying OR implying their existence (although the balance turns to the second side which uses the text literally).
However afflicted Lycanthropes cannot spread Lycanthropy.
It's debatable as it's got Lycanthropy wether it could gain Lycanthropy, however the books seem silent on this issue.
My personal opinion is that this seems absurd and I certainly wouldn't allow it if I was the DM
Using RAW A natural werewolf (or other lycanthrope) could bite itself and turn itself into an afflicted werewolf, gaining the template again. I see nothing in the book that forbids this.
However afflicted Lycanthropes cannot spread Lycanthropy.
It's debatable as it's got Lycanthropy wether it could gain Lycanthropy, however the books seem silent on this issue.
My personal opinion is that this seems absurd and I certainly wouldn't allow it if I was the DM
That was what I was afraid of.
Fortunately most animals that make the lycanthropes have no advancement in their HD and as becoming a lycanthrope is like multyclassing with the animal you should have a maximum number of HD where the creature gets no more.
Also as the alternate form is like polymorph,infinite physical stats are out of the question too.
The major issue is the +2Wis given by the template which can scale to infinity.
Imagine:the wiser creature in the universe which bites itself to reach the consept of the meaning of life mentally.
Sounds like humor from the Monty Pythons or Duglas Adams.
It only brought disaster as the paragraph worded:unlike most temlates this one can be added multiple times which implies that template stacking was something seen before.
"Unlike most templates..." -- this is already setting up the "standard." It's flat out telling you that templates do NOT allow multiple stacking. It calls this particular template out as an exception to that rule (which the line itself implies IS a rule, otherwise, why is there an exception?). Which means any other template would need to explicitly be called out as an exception in order to stack with itself, otherwise...tough cookies.
It's such elementary logic...I almost want ot write it as a if...then loop in C++...
Even if it were allowed by RAW...the DM can always say no. Or in this case, it'd be more like "NO!!!!!!!!!!"
Mostly, what you are attempting to exploit is the fact that the rules don't say you can't. Which is dumb. Don't do that. That way lies madness, and munchkinism at it's worst.
Bonuses from the same source don't stack. In short, while stacking a dozen of Half-dragon templates would work as long as you use a different dragon, this one would not.
I'd challenge that, but I'm too lazy. Not that it would be worth the LA too...
Too easy to just Holy word it to oblivion. Or turn. Or Glass strike.
What is that last one?