Thanks a lot!
Chaoz
As for making a "powerful but not broken characters" I'd just say you are trying to max out a full caster who can be "broken" without doing a lot to its build.
Since you're starting at level 24, you can lose 4 levels of casting progression without any loss of spells per day. You do wind up with a lower caster level, but you can take the practiced spellcaster feat to make that up.
The pale master prestige class (Libris Mortis) gives you full undead immunities without actually making you undead. The only better set of immunities goes to constructs. Undead are only immune to damage to physical ability scores. Constructs are immune to damage to all ability scores. Both are immune to all ability drain.
I'm not normally a fan of the green star adept prestige class, since it causes you to lose 5 levels of spellcasting, but it might work here. The class turns you into a construct at level 10, except you don't get the normal immunity to mind-affecting effects.
I'd suggest the warforged juggernaut prestige class (Eberron Campaign Setting) if I could think of a way around the 35% arcane spell failure chance imposed by one of the prerequisite feats.
IotSV is a REALLY great PrC, and Master Abjurer gets really good abilities, including casting Personal Range spells as touch spells, then Archmage turns it into ranged touch/ray spells!
The suggestions from StevenO and Maat_Mons are great too (i just don't know about Warforged Juggernaut, i mean, you get all those immunities, but if you are Warforged you lose 1 caster level already counting with Practiced Spellcaster feat, if you are Human and go with Renegade Mastermaker -> Warforged Juggernaut then you lose 3 caster level already counting with the aforementioned feat).
If you follow the StevenO's tips take at least one level of Spellthief and the Master Spellthief feat.
The reason I suggest this build is simple, action economy. You get a swift action to cast haste or an abjuration with each round at no additional resource cost, and then you've got a full round (or move and standard), as well as another Standard to do whatever you want with. Flexibility is why wizards win. I'm not even going to get into the potent defensive abilities that both prcs have access to. You just need a couple simple offensive tricks, maybe using Conjuration, Transmutation and Abjuration to control fights.
Talk Loudly And Carry A Big Stick ... Azuran(human)
Bard 4 / PsyWar 4 Mantled acf / Psychic Theurge 3 / Mind Mage 10 / Psychic Theurge +3
Ask your DM if he thinks 1st level spells with metamagic are too powerful (leading question).
Ask your DM if he thinks 1st level spells as not quite at-wills are too powerful.
After getting a Yes to both ahead of time ... get a Psi recharge set-up going and
get the Cerebremetamagic feat from Dr#349 so every spell is metamagic-ed up
to your max spell/power level. You have access to all Bard spells and Psi powers
up to level 6, fully metamagic-ed, but mostly out-of-combat. Your nickname is: Tool Belt .
Epic Spellcasting is the ONLY thing that matters at this level. Seriously, the only thing. So, for the sake of the thread, I'll assume you can't have it.
Ignore every suggestion for Swfitblade. It's a weak class, and would give you nothing of value. No, the real build you're going to want is Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Divine Oracle 3/Incantatrix 10/SCM OR some Circle Magic PrC 5. Take Spontaneous Divination ACF.
Shazam! And now you can do everything most of the above builds can do, but better, and you have Mindsight. Also pick up a minor schema of Favor of the Martyr to Persist with Incantatrix.
Other good options involve Dweomerkeeper, Anima Mage, any number of hilarious Theurge builds, even some rather brutal trip-9s builds, or really anything that doesn't involve such shining examples of mediocrity as Swiftblade, or truly awful classes like the Juggernaut or the GSA. There are plenty of great options. Just not those.
Oh, and DM, it's Cerebremancer. Psychic Theurge is Psionic/Divine.
Swift Blade is not weak, but despite that your suggestions are good, i'll just complement these suggestions:
Replace Mindbender, Divine Oracle, Circle Magic PrC and some others levels. Reasons:
Wizard 3/Sorcerer 1 (or Beguiler or other spontaneous caster, i don't know)/Spellthief 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Incantatrix 9
You lose some nice abilities, but nothing crucial, and if you take Practiced Spellcaster feats and Master Spellthief feat you get past 40th caster level that is the limit of Circle Magic, not just that but Circle Magic is kind hard of happen. What means that in exchange of secondary abilities you improved your mainly ability.
Wizard 10/Beguiler 1/Dread Necromancer 1/Sorcerer 1/Spellthief 1/Red Wizard 10
Now you know spells as a Wizard 20 (the limit of spells know), and can raise all your arcane caster levels to 40, then use the Master Spellthief feat to sum all of them.
Of course you don't need to be Wizard 10, you cant replace some of those levels with a good PrC, the same for Red Wizard (since you don't need Great Circle Leader to go to 40th caster level).
Why is everyone and their dog so obsessed with such mediocre classes
He said his DM wouldn't allow “broken things” without giving any indication of what his DM considers broken. Based on the little information I have, I've guessed that he'll deem all the more powerful abilities to be broken. Dweomerkeeper, epic spellcasting, incantatrix, mindsight, red wizard, and shadowsraft mage are all things I considered but didn't suggest because I assumed they wouldn't be allowed.
In any case, an indication of what the DM considers an appropriate power level would help. So, chaoz, can you tell me how your DM feels about:
- Getting 10 turns for every 1 other people get? (Planar Shepeherd)
- Gaining an arbitrarily high casting stat? (Tainted scholar)
- Removing the xp and gp components of spells? (Dweomerkeeper)
I was going to give more examples, but I'm tired. Can somebody else throw some out?
Now that said... IF you bother to take the 10th level (and lose the final caster level), which in an EPIC game I would, you can make that first haste a 4 round time stop by using a 9th if you'd like (As per the 10th level ability), and buff like mad, move around a bit, set up a pile of magicala traps, what have you, discern the location of all your enemies.
Also, it has another nice feature, Casting Stat to Init, which also means you probably act first. And I'm sorry but win more spells are not what wins at this power level, it's rocket tag. Going first, and succesfully locating your opponent in time to tag them frist is what wins.
==Aelryinth
Uh, no. Hell no.
Look, UM is garbage compared to Circle Magic, and CL is overrated. Mediocre build. Plus, this builld lacks omnicience and mindsight. Both are vastly superior to UM.
UM + Master Spellthief is absolutely better than Circle Magic. Because you don't need peoples giving you spell energy for 1 hour to improve your CL, and because your CL doesn't stack at 40. Actually is possible to combine Circle Magic, multiple Arcane Caster Classes and Master Spellthief, then you get a CL of 40+40+40+40...
Ultimate Magus is just a non-overpowered (and practical) way of using Master Spellthief without resorting to Circle Magic, since his DM won't allow "broken things".
But if Mindsight and Omnicience are so important, it's possible to give up some levels of UM or whatever other thing to fulfill these roles AND Master Spellthief Cheese.
And from what book is Omnicience anyway?
Now I really want to know: Why is everyone and their dog so obsessed with such mediocre classes as UM and Swiftblade. Hell, both are strictly inferior to Mystic Theurge, and it has no class features.
No way Mystic Theurge is superior to Ultimate Magus if the later possess the Master Spellthief feat, since there's no version of this feat for arcane + divine spellcasting (actually there is in a Dragon Magazine, but just works for one spell school for feat, not for ALL your spells from ALL schools).
And you say any Wizard can do the same as Swift Blade just using Celerity and Shapechange, but a Persisted Haste on a Swift Blade will give him 1 extra action like forever (well, you just have to remake this every 24 hour, but until there your Haste don't get dispelled, nulified or disjointed by any means), what is better than using Shapechange for that, AND you can use BOTH this Swift ability and Shapechange to get 2 extra actions.
About Celerity, you don't need to rely on it anymore to act first, you can go first just rolling Initiative and then when it's your enemy's turn you act again now using Celerity (and your wonderful tip about Favor of the Martyr to get rid of Dazle weakness).
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Core and Complete Divine. It's also known as Divine Oraclel+CoP
I still didn't see any Omniciente ability there.
Lemme tell you something: The difference between three full-round actions and four full-round actions and a standard action is negligable at best, especially when Time Stop is on the table. Certainly not worth 10 levels.
It's not negligible, after all each action = one more spell to the victory. And Swift Blade has Time Stop too, and better than the usual.
Can't take immediate actions while flat-footed. Do note that you actually can talk the second combat starts, and then use it since you took a free action, but this is liable to get books thrown at you.
But the Swift Blade won't take any immediate actions while flat-footed, first he will win the Initiative, take his normal actions, then he's not flat-footed anymore and can use Celerity.
And, bro? Initiative means absolutely less than nothing at this level. Contingencies, being a turtle, and so on render the whole thing pointless. Also, an Incantatrix WILL have higher intiative than a swiftblade. Persistomancy is vastly superior to a slight boost from a garbage class.
Swift Blade can have Contingencies and Persistomancy too, but Incantatrix has a lot better time Persisting spells than Swift Blade, so point for you, but if Swift can manage Persist certain spells, this combined with his highly natural initiative makes him go first again, or being neraly-indestructible or whatever you want to persist.
Allow me to rephrase: Superior divination easily bordering on omnicience.
Now i get it, but still, you won't reach Omniscience even with the most powerful divination spells.
And if you need that extra action, you don't deserve to win. Seriously, bro. Totally unneeded.
This was an illogical statement. I could say if you need those persisted spells you don't deserve to win lol. Each build has its own way to the victory, some of them relies more on buffs, some on many actions/spells per round, and so on.
No. The Swiftblade will have inferior initiative. The Incantatrix can use Minor Schemas or some such to have persisted off-list spells, among other things.
The Swift can have Minor Schemas AND natural highly initiative.
Swiftblade just don't have enough useful toys. They got the shiny ones instead of the good ones. And, by the way, I do want to see this hypothetical persisting Swiftblade. Not that it'll even be able to harm an Incantatrix, but I'm curious.
Well, this persisting Swiftblade can be an Incantatrix as well lol, something like:
High Elf Wizard 5/Incantatrix 2/Swift Blade 9/Incantatrix 3-6
Later i may post something more decent, that was just a concept.
Sorry for not putting the definition of "broken" earlier, here is the full set:
0. any WOTC D&D 3.5 materials are allowed, upon DM permission;
1. anything that breaks the action economy is not allowed (no free actions);
2. no DIY classes, feats, spells, items etc, except epic spells;
3. cannot obtain the effect and avoid the usual cost (not free wish, etc);
4. you can operate at most two characters (no circle magic, no 30 solars, etc);
5. cannot change ECL in any ways (no dragonwrought kobold, etc);
6. UA is allowed but needs permission, as well as epic spell development;
7. when use Genesis, the demiplane doesn't have special time traits (no 100 days casting, etc);
8. no Celerity, Synchronicity and traveling back time;
9. 3.0e materials are allowed by permission;
Basically, the only way I can think of to abuse epic level is the epic mage of arcane order.....
Thanks again!
You've obviously never read Contact Other Plane
I just did and it's not that big deal.
Do you really not understand how wizards work? Wizards shouldn't need more than one or two actions to kill an opponent. And that's not even getting into the fact that if you can't kill an opponent with four standard actions, five won't make much of a difference, anyways.
Each extra action will make the difference when when you have to kill more than one opponent and each one of them are in completely different sides of the battlefield making you hit each one of them individually or something like that.
But they cannot Persist their Minor Schemas like an Incantatrix. Try to keep up.
They can, but of course it's not with the same ease and such as Incantatrix do.
That is so downright awful I don't know where to even start. That build is absolutely inferior to even a crap build like wizard 10/Incantatrix 10, much less an actually focused build like Wizard 1/Anima Mage 7/Mindbender 1/Incantatrix 10/Sacred Exorcist 1. But if you like wasting 9 levels, have fun with it. Just don't act like it's functional.
Of course it's functional in its niche, that is having nice passive abilities, extra actions, going first, and such that can't be dispelled. The same way your build has the Persisting Buffer/Metamagic Master niche, and of course you can emulate other niches with spells, but you can't persist all of them AND emulating a bunch of niches is not the same as specializing in a few niches.
I have friends that think I overdo the optimization because I'll plan a build out from 1-20 even if I'm pretty sure the game won't last more than a few sessions. I practically never try and make a character that can do everything, or win every encounter because that's just not fun to me, not because I don't know how or couldn't.
Just lighten up already CJ, life is better if you can let go.
Besides, all of this is OVER in the context of this thread, because the OP has added some info; no extra-action cheese is one of them, so no swift blade or incantatrix.
You're adorable.
Wizards shut down entire battles with one spell. They shouldn't, and don't need the extra action.
And what spell is that?
If you tell me that Wizard is one of the (or even THE) best classes of the game i'll agree with you, but even then there's situations you can't just win with one spell, so you don't know what you're talking about.
Let's say you try an Area Save or Die, but one of the enemies is immune to death effects, or you try some damage, but some enemy is immune to the kind of damage you used, or you try negative levels and someone is immune to that, or you try ability damage/drain, or mind-effect, or stun, or... Let's even say that you try Shapechange yourself into a killing machine and those constructs of the other topic disjoint you lol, and so on, it's impossible to cover ALL situations in just ONE spell, that's why having more actions/spells per round is better in some situations.
Other situation when Swiftblade can be better is when you just woke up, you just prepared your spells, but didn't buffed/persisted yourself yet, and your camp/whatever is getting attacked, then the Swifty is going to win the Initiative and take the better course of actions, and the Incantatrix isn't.
If your DM always let you set up your persisted buffs without an ambush he's just too good lol
And there's the flavor-fluffy thing too, sometimes peoples like to play with something and they try to optimize THAT something, not other something just because it's supposedly better.
A single mid-level Evocation says that no buffs can be dispelled. Try again.
What?
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And i won't quote the rest because you don't even try to argue, you just says yours is better.
But the point is:
Incantatrix is better at many niches, and Swifty is better at many others niches, and maybe (probably) Incantatrix is better at many more niches, but if that means to you that all resume to Swifty is garbage compared with Incantatrix, then why don't you just take PunPun?
Everything is garbage compared to it, even your "almighty unbeatable Incantatrix". If you just want to say yours is better do it, take PunPun.
... Oh, and DM, it's Cerebremancer. Psychic Theurge is Psionic/Divine.
Gah!
Right.
... one of those shrill hotties on MSNBC ...
You can always hit the mute button ...
That's the point of Wizards! A lot of them! Solid Fog, Force Cage, Stoneshape, and so much more I'm not going to bother going further.
It was what i told, that there's no way of covering ALL situations with ONE spell, there's a spell for each one situation, even the most embracing spell still doesn't cover all situations, and then more actions are welcome to cast more spells that can cover each others weaknesses.
And THAT's why Boccob gave us Time Stop.
Swifty can cast a better Time Stop and before other one one does, unless you have a Persisted spell that makes you go first or if you have a Persisted Time Stop itself lol, but it requires preparation which you won't have always, so there is the situations where each one is better.
In one impossible-to-occur event, a Swiftblade has a tiny, tiny chance of out-performing an Incantatrix. Except, a wizard can buff in one round.
A small shiny light of hope just brightened. Sou you admit there's situations where Swiftblade (not just Swiftblade, but any good class/PrC) can out-perform Incantatrix depending on the niches of the classes being compared and depending on the situations they're going through.
If you LET the DM do that you deserve to be caught unprepared.
Well, he is the DM lol
And a Wizard is a paranoid, crazy super-genius. Massive buff routines, contingencies, and preparations are not out of character.
I never said that all of it is out of character, i just said that sometimes even that is not enough because everything is circumstantial and situational.
Of course certain classes can cover more of the situations a DM can put against players, mainly spellcasters, that's why they're Tier 1, that's the case of both Incantatrix and Swiftblade, so even if Incantatrix being better than Swiftblade (and i do believe that), it still doesn't outclass Swiftblade completely, that's just non-sense of you.
Play gestalt, take Swiftblade on a side, smash the game with Innervated Speed and Perpetual Options? Granted, this could be achieved with Factotum too, except Factotum isn't quite as sustainable for one fight.
Uh, no. Gestalt prevents the taking of more than one PrC at any given time, so you're still giving up a lot, plus you still have to meet the garbage prereqs.
It doesn't improve enough in Gestalt rules to make it worth it, because, yanno, it's still a garbage class.
Yeah, like Draco said, you've got loony ideas, brother. Action advantage is god, and gestalt completely eliminates the usual problems (since you could just progress another fullcaster side while you're raising swiftblade and get level 9 spells anyways). Past a certain point, you don't need more choices for what to do with your actions per round, you just straight up need more actions per round. Gestalt lets you hit that point very, very early, making Swiftblade outstanding. Pit two properly kitted out gestalt characters against each other and the swiftblade is going to win nine times out of ten because he can counter what the other guy is doing and still do stuff of his own.
Contingency, it does not do what I think you think it does. Most especially, it does not pre-empt something happening to you, nor does it have extrasensory capacity. It reacts after the fact to something that happens to you. And you can only have one of each type on you.
If Celerity wins all combats, then everyone has Celerity, and highest initiative is going to win, anyways. Celerity is broken and if used, then EVERYONE should use it, since it's an 'I Win' button.
Someone who relies on Permabuffs to win dies without them. Saying you can't get your buffs removed is an open challenge to find someone who can remove them for you...adn will do so, and then you do.
Schroedinger's wizard is theorycraft only. The game tends to play very differently. And if PC's abuse the rules for uberness, the DM should be doing so, as well...and the DM has many, many more tricks to play then any PC.
==Aelryinth
I'm sorry, but could you clearly present a situation with a moderate chance of occurance in which the Swiftblade's 6/10 casting, crappy prerequisites, full BAB *yay?*, and so-so buffs while hasted are better than the insanity that is the Incantatrix? I feel like a few of these would really help your case.
It's quite simple actually, you need to be an Evil character with 9 levels of Swiftblade and 3 of Incantatrix, the others levels are meant to fulfil requisites and improve this build's power (adding levels of good classes like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and just go to level 10 Swiftblade if you go epic because then you'll get 9th spells and Practiced Spellcaster will fix the 6/10 casting).
Without further ado:
Cast Masochism/Sadism spell from Book of Vile Darkness and then get i REALLY high Spellcraft check very easily, now you just need to cast any buff you want in yourself and turn them Persisted with Metamagic Effect from Incantatrix 3, and there is NO limit for that, while Cyclone_Joker's build relies on Instant Metamagic and Vestige Metamagic that will end after like 4 daily uses, still he acts like he could buff himself forever with his build.
It's not even necessary adding more Incantatrix levels after that unless you want Bonus Metamagic Feats, because all the others Incantatrix's abilities focus on aplying these metamagics, and you already can do that with ease through Masochism/Sadism + Metamagic Effect, so more levels of Incantatrix would be almost irrelevant in this case.
If you don't wanna play as an Evil character you will have to:
1)Rely on CJ's build, which doesn't completely outclass Swiftblade like he says, but is better than Swiftblade about the buffing thing, still Swiftblade is better at other situations and CJ's free Persisted Spells runs out quickly (like 2 Instant Metamagic per day and 2 Vestige Metamagic);
2)Rely on other ways of getting high Spellcraft check, then pick up only 3 levels of Incantatrix and you are done, you even don't need to be a Swiftblade along with these 3 levels of Incantatrix, but higher Initiative + Extra Actions + 50% miss chance for ALL attakcs against you = REALLY useful.
If you don't wanna Swiftblade then go with Dweomerkeeper, IotSV, Wyrm Wizard or something like that, but i believe i already made my point that is: Swiftblade abilities ARE good, and for someone like CJ who always talk about how 10 levels of Swiftblade are redundant/are not worth, is surprising that he takes all 10 levels of Incantatrix if it's possible to do better with just an Evil spell and 3 levels of the aforementioned class.
About CJ's post: I won't quote it because Aelryinth, Armisael and Draco1119 already told the same things i think.
I'm sorry, but do you understand how this game works? It is so trivially easy to raise skill checks.
Did i said anything different?
I even said if you don't want to be evil and rely on such spells, then you should rely on other ways of getting high Spellcraft.
And Metamagic Effect DOES have limited number of uses, which you'd know if you actuallly read the ability instead of parroting bad advice.
My bad, but 3+Int modifier is still more than your build (you have around 2 Instant Metamagic, 2 Vestige, and so on), and is easy to get high Int mod, so...
Now, the build I've made uses DMM(With Southern Magician to get Divine spells), Vestige Metamagic, Instant Metamagic, Residual Magic, and Metamagic Effect, for truly insane levels of persisting. Now, try to keep up. I'm trying to keep it simple, but I'm not sure I can make it slower for you.
All of it is irrelevant/redundant/not worth (except for Southern Magician that i can get for my builds too) because Metamagic Effect + High Spellcraft = You persist any spell in the game, you don't need to invest in a bunch of Instant and Vestige and such Metamagic.
Swiftblade in other way hasn't abilities that are redundant with Metamagic Effect, so it can still uses its maximum potencial and do not lose time improving your metamagic powers since you already has the best ability for that.
Good god, do you understand how this game works? Masochism and Sadism are irrelevent. Your "build," if such a bad one can be called such, is wastin 9 levels and 3 CL on garbage.
Lol how contradictory you are, sometimes you says Incantatrix is awesome and now says 3 levels of it are garbage. And if these spells are irrelevant is irrelevant, i just used them as examples, any way of high Spellcraft check can do it.
All of those 'benefits" are either crap, or so easily replicatable that they aren't worth mentioning. And, no, a Swiftblade will NOT go first.
Which are replicatable? Polymorphing into a Choker to get an extra action? Buffing your Initiative to go first?
All of it is cumulative with Perpetual Options and Arcane Reflexes.
But Metamagic Effect + Instant Metamagic? They're not cumulative, Metamagic Effect already does the better that can be done.
First off, Wyrm Wizard is not good enough to make that list with Dweomerkeeper and IotSFV.
Whatever, it's just that the possibility of get any spell from any class is nice.
Snip
Glad to see you made a build that has clipped wings and trouble meeting feat prerequisites, as well as getting pulled in ten directions. Elegance, man, elegance. Power trips only work if they are stylish and...well, can actually be pulled off.
Then, contigency can't have a spell of more than 6 lv to be use when the conditions are met, and you can only have one on yourself at anytime.
By the way, what is your daily buff routine with your so called unkillable Incantatrix?
Ho and nice build for a lv ....40 character: "Wizard 1/Anima Mage 7/Incantatrix 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Mindbender 1//Factotum 8/Telepath 12"
Yeah I know ECL 24 is crazy. But I am very excited and got pigeonholed a lot by the choices. I am making a wizard type guy, can some one help me with it? I know it will be focused specialist, with some levels of archmage. But what else to throw in? Also, DM is very experienced and strict on "broken things", so I am making a powerful but not broken char.
Thanks a lot!
Chaoz
Which says nothing. Come back with some actual rules.
Take a look at the note:
It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.
Sure, the bag of holding is a nondimensional item, but you wouldn't be able to rope trick into another.
Gestalt build, bro. Try to keep up with the conversation.
Not everyone has knowledge of gestalt rules, especially since it's a variant rule that comes from a book full of variants.
Which means your build has nothing over a standard incantatrix.
Yes it has, because it does not need 10 levels of Incantatrix for being God at buffing & persisting, it only needs Metamagic Effect.
It's a good thing the build I brought up can use it, too. 'Cuz, yanno, it's an Incantatrix class feature, and all?
You just need Metamagic Effect.
All of the swiftblade abilities are redundant. All are easily replicatable with buffs.
Good PrCs bring new abilities or enhance existing abilities. Swiftblade gives a lot of abilities the wizard already had, at the cost of a bunch of garbage feats, 10 levels, and 4 CL.
Replicatable abilities are one thing, cumulative abilities are another. All the abilities Wizard already has aren't replacing Swiftblade abilities, they stack, what means, they enhance existing abilities exactly like you said.
Which matters how, exactly? The three levels of Incantatrix will do all the work. These class features are trash.
Exactly, the three levels of Incantatrix will do all the buffing & persisting work, what means other Incantatrix abilities are replicatable with Metamagic Effect, what means you don't need more levels of Incantatrix.
Swiftblade in another way doesn't have replicatable abilities, but cumulative. All the spells that do the same as Swiftblade can stack with Swiftblade abilities, with Blink and Wannabe + Evasive Celerity being the only exception.
Talking about Incantatrix, its Metamagic Effect does the same job as Instant Metamagic and such, but much better, so who is spending class levels with redundancy is you.
And no, i don't think 10 levels of Incantatrix are garbage, i'm just trying to use your twisted logic.
There is so much wrong with this the only reasonable response is
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Nice champz, you're running out of arguments.
Which is something Wizards already had. If you want more, don't waste time with Wyrm Wizard, just play a damn Mystic Theruge.
The point is that Wyrm Wizard can get ANY spell. For instance:
Wizard/Archvist/Mystic Theurge can get any divine spell and almost all arcane spells, but it can't achieve spells like Arcane Fusion, Arcane Spellsurge, Greater Arcane Fusion, and others exclusive spells from Sorcerer and other arcane classes.
oh, and sorry, the feat is Called Dimensional Spell here? THe one that lets you strike at extradimensional, ethereal, and incorporeal targets without them manifesting on the prime? Thus, you can bombard people in extradimensional spaces without them being able to do anything back to you.
Tinfoil hats work right up until someone spends 1k gp and throws a packet of dust of dispelling against your chest, whereupon you are immediately trapped inside your own bloody protective hat with your personal A-M shell, at which time they carve through it and waste you. Or maybe thy just walk up to you and trigger it while standing in your face, and your hat comes down and you're trapped inside an A-M shell with a swiftblade gish, still hasted.
Seriously, dumb tactic.
Contingent spells activate AFTER something has happened, not before. They are not-preemptive, and have no capacity to make detect events that have not happened, make rational decisions, anticipate, or make judgement calls. Eesh. Classic spellcaster error, allowing Contingent spells to do more then they are capable of.
Craft Contingent Spell is not a Contingency spell. It's a magic item rendered as one shot spellcasting, and follows all the rules thereby. Trying to present it as a spell, not a Crafting feat, is quite precious of you. You're effectively saying, the instant you quote this feat, that "I have whatever magic item I choose to have at whatever time I choose to hate it."
i.e. Schroedinger's Artificer, by way of Craft Contingent. Precious, precious of you. Totally wrong, but precious.
And trying to ignore the fact that if Celerity wins all fights, anyone with more then a 3 Int will have a celerity effect at hand, is wonderfully obfuscatory of you. Do continue with the closemindedness, and keep that hand on your face. Maybe you can see better with it that way.
==Aelryinth
Vacuum The Cleaner
Commoner 23 / Thrallherd 1 ... a little attention to Knowledge (Religion)
known to mutter under his(her/its) breath: "I'm bad, I'm bad, you know it."
Since VD obviously doesn't understand how the build works, and probably not even how the GAME works, as well as his apparent thought that only Swiftblades get Metamagic Effect, I think I'm done with him.Notice how he's ignoring that his Rope Trick trick is utterly trashed, and he missed it. At the levels you use Rope Trick, sticking a big bonfire underneath it to fill it with smoke and heat should work fine, or the people suffocate within. SPell limitations, ya know.
Oh, you're adorable.
First off, there's the issue of locating the Rope Trick. Second of all, you're assuming that a level 8+ wizard has no protections against this. So, what level is it that this wizard will be fighting enemies with rapid, highly powerful divinations that can cross planes?oh, and sorry, the feat is Called Dimensional Spell here? THe one that lets you strike at extradimensional, ethereal, and incorporeal targets without them manifesting on the prime? Thus, you can bombard people in extradimensional spaces without them being able to do anything back to you.
Oh, you mean Transdimensional Spell? You mean the one that is total crap and nobody ever takes unless they decide they specifically need when running around in a Metamagic Storm?Tinfoil hats work right up until someone spends 1k gp and throws a packet of dust of dispelling against your chest, whereupon you are immediately trapped inside your own bloody protective hat with your personal A-M shell, at which time they carve through it and waste you. Or maybe thy just walk up to you and trigger it while standing in your face, and your hat comes down and you're trapped inside an A-M shell with a swiftblade gish, still hasted.
Seriously, dumb tactic.
First off, source? Second off, acting like a wizard would actually get hit by something? With AC high enough, and over a 95% miss chance? OkayContingent spells activate AFTER something has happened, not before.
Incorrect. They can be set up like readied actions.They are not-preemptive, and have no capacity to make detect events that have not happened, make rational decisions, anticipate, or make judgement calls. Eesh. Classic spellcaster error, allowing Contingent spells to do more then they are capable of.
Wrong. You just obviously have no idea how to word things.Craft Contingent Spell is not a Contingency spell. It's a magic item rendered as one shot spellcasting, and follows all the rules thereby. Trying to present it as a spell, not a Crafting feat, is quite precious of you. You're effectively saying, the instant you quote this feat, that "I have whatever magic item I choose to have at whatever time I choose to hate it."
i.e. Schroedinger's Artificer, by way of Craft Contingent. Precious, precious of you. Totally wrong, but precious.
Wrong. Wizards have no feat at level 12, just as Druids don't have one at 6. They instead get Craft Contingent Spell.
And how adorable! You're acting like crafting actually COSTS anything.
Pro tip: Crafting has a flat cost of 20,000 GP and 500 XP. As much crafting as you could possibly want costs exactly that much.And trying to ignore the fact that if Celerity wins all fights, anyone with more then a 3 Int will have a celerity effect at hand, is wonderfully obfuscatory of you. Do continue with the closemindedness, and keep that hand on your face. Maybe you can see better with it that way.
==Aelryinth
There is so wrong here, I don't know where to start.
Oh, you're precious.
You're saying that all wizards use Rope Trick, and yet obvously nobody knows anything about Rope Trick. Why all the footprints come to this one point and vanish. Why Detect Magic shows a swirl in the air. Why a DC 20 Spot check can tell there's something up there.
And even more precious, assuming all wizards at level 8 have Resist Energy/Fire AND protection against suffocation in place.
Precious, indeed!
As for Transdimensional SPell: You mean that feat that becomes EXTREMELY USEFUL when every wizard and their mother is holed up in extradimensional spaces and thinks they are the perfect defense? And which can be made into a lesser Metamagic Rod for a low, low cost to bedevil idiotic wizards with?
That feat? Oh, let's just poo-poo the cheap and easy way to defeat my blatant Rope Trick effect that everyone uses but nobody knows about. Oh, how darling.
Oh, and the wizard never gets hit. All those things that have True Seeing, blindsense, tremorsense, spot checks through the roof, and all the enemy NPC's that can have whatever the DM wants, striking at a guy whose Touch AC isn't going to mean much once his miss chances are totally foiled, and whose AC is then absolutely in the toilet once he's in an A-M shell. Because we all know that every wizard uses magic to buff his AC and do miss chances, but nobody knows that's what the wizard does, so he must be invulnerable.
That precious wizard. Yes. As if people won't find ways to overcome the wizard's defenses, generally with far less effort then he spent putting them up.
And then with Contingent Spell! Which, unfortunately is not a magic item, and so Wish cannot duplicate it. And Contingent SPells respond to things, you precious boy, they don't anticipate them. they have no capability to anticipate, you have to word them to respond to what happens, not what is going to happen...it's right there in the spell description. I would love to see some of your darling wording of all these Contingent spells you have infinite amounts of, just so you could watch them get flushed down the toilet. I would also love to see how you replace them so very, very quickly after they get expended...no, wait, I'm sure you use the 5 minute adventuring day and leave the world to burn if your precious contingencies go off and leave you bereft. Yes, that sounds like the smart Schroedinger's wizard play.
And then you bring up the whole idea that Wish can take the place of all Item Creation feats, and then look down on people creating Celerity items wholesale to deal with the Celerity "I Win" button. It appears that only precious people like you are allowed to abuse the rules wholesale with rules-bending, while making simple wondrous items with Celerity are not allowed because they'd disrupt your wonderful worldview.
What a precious chi-er, wizard you are. The rest of the world is totally stupid and could NEVER figure out how to overcome the defenses that obviously every single spellcaster in the world must use, because they are the One True Way.
==Aelryinth
Ael...
For the most part your suggestions seem like they'd work fairly well against any poorly played wizard. However that's not to say that with a large amount of preperation and equal part large amount of luck that it wouldn't be possible to kill a competently played, built, and paranoid wizard. I just prefer calling it is what it is most of the time, a vindictive DM. Of course it could go back and forth all day with you suggesting more "Obvious" counters and others suggesting more "Obvious" defenses. The real point is that a so-so (make no mistake, it's a fun and flavorful class) gish prc has little place in an optimized wizard build.
Also... What the hell is "chahar aina, dastana" armor? Are those special materials, enchantments, what?
Somehow, despite the fact he's always been using Rope Trick, he's now deferring it to level 8 when he can sleep through the night.
And somehow, the ENTIRE PARTY CAN FLY ALL DAY by this level.
And all he has the money to automatically have all the proper defenses for whatever you throw at him without straining his magical capability.
He natters on about an 80% miss chance that is actually zero, because he won't support it.
And doesn't realize the DC 20 spot check is for invisible objects, too. Not to mention a simple Detect Magic. And people suspecting it's there. Oh, right, nobody knows that all wizards use Rope Trick. Got it!
Then, he's going to NEST TWO EXTRA-DIMENSIONAL SPACES!!!!! LOL. And somehow not be obliterated.
And THEN, we magically jump to level 13, and he must not be uber, because now he's relying on the cleric in the party!!! And as we all know, Plane shift, that wonderfully accurate transportation spell that sets you down somewhere within a couple hundred miles of your destination. Yeah. I mean, c'mon, if you're going to do that, just say you're going to teleport home at night, right?
He's tossing out 'Contingency will do this and that' without daring to provide wording of all these delicious can't-fail contingency spells.
He doesn't realize that everyone and their mother now knows about the tinfoil hat, and will put the a-m shell up on him point-blank, not go running up with it already active. Leaving him trapped inside his own un-polymorphed hat inside an a-m shell, waitinig for his enemies to sunder it and him. Dust of negation bulb on an arrowhead from a missile guy with improved precise shot, ignoring all miss chances, yay!
Of course, he's only going to have such a hat in the late 1/3rd of the game, but Dust of Negation is available considerably before then.
===========
In other words, there are things wizards can do, and by now, they are rote. On the flip side, people of that level messing with wizards know the wizards can do that stuff, and pull it off.
Astral Projection means you are vulnerable to anything that hedges out extraplanars...plus you can get dispelled, or dismissed. One spell of much lower level to counter your spell.
And you're relying on a nightmare to do that? oooookay...
The problem iwth being paranoid is that when the people really are out to get you, they know the defenses you'll use and they will overcome them, and they don't have to go to extremes...they just have to have the right spells. While said paranoid wizard has to spend copious amounts of time, money, xp to try and have those defenses in place, while his enemies can take them and him down that much quicker.
Schroedinger wizard is theory-craft. With unlimited time and money and crafting ability, of course anything is possible. Unfortunately, wizards live in the real world with everyone else, and and it just isn't that easy.
==Aelryinth
Since VD obviously doesn't understand how the build works, and probably not even how the GAME works, as well as his apparent thought that only Swiftblades get Metamagic Effect, I think I'm done with him.
And obviously you don't know how to read because i never said that only Swiftblade gets Metamagic Effect, what i said is that i'm getting 3 levels of Incantatrix to make the build work while you are spending 10 levels of Incantatrix to do the same thing a level 3 does.
Ael...
Totally relying on Metamagic Effect for your buff routine not only removes flexibility,
No, it doesn't. The flexibility of Metamagic Effect by itself is already much better and wider than Instant Metamagic's flexibility. Adding Instant and Vestige Metamagic on the build doesn't do anything that Metamagic Effect can't do.
but loses out on the absurd versatility of Metamagic Effect,
You don't lose anything, i don't know from where did you get that idea. Metamagic Effect's versatility is the same with or without Instant Metamagic because it does the same Instant does but better, so adding Instant doesn't do anything new.
and limits your number of buffs/day.
3+Int mod per day isn't limited, it's more than your daily uses of Instant and Vestige Metamagic.
Furthermore, Metamagic Effect is only useful on persistable buffs. My build has a wider range of useful buffs, because it can make use of the various ways to make non-persistable spells persistable.
Turning Non-Persistable Spells into Persistables there is NOTHING to do with Metamagic Effect, Instant Metamagic or such. These Incantatrix's abilities will only help to Persist spells after you make them someway persistable, so you're still wasting 10 levels for something you can do with 3, sorry.
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LOLOLOLOL. That, my friends, is the sign of a really weak argument.
Do tell me how you're going to cast 4 Persistent Swift Fly spells at level 8 on other people. What's the level pre-req for Incantatrix? Oh, you can't DO this trick until you are an Incantatrix...if the DM allows the PrC! Hey, great, ALL WIZARDS ARE NOW INCANTATRIXES regardless of what the DM says!
Kewl! But I suppose that's not all that bad, because he's using over half his Persistents on spells for others! Um, what other hundreds of buffs are you keeping on yourself at level 8, now?
Then explain to me why every other wizard in the world isn't doing the exact same thing as you, and everyone over the level of 8 isn't flying all the time.
Oh, look! He pulled out the trifecta of blink (Detect Invis, Ghost touch stops cold), Displacement (an illusion easily defeated by multiple senses) and Mirror Image (foiled by Tremorsense, blindsight, detect Illusion, true Sight, Mindsight). I was expecting invisibility, but Detect Invis and the other divs thwart that, too, not to mention simple Spot checks.
The rules state very clearly that putting one extra-dimensional space inside another is a very bad thing. ANd you're going to be dumb enough to CREATE one? You deserve what happens to you. And WHAM, his wizards all start their adventuring career at 8th level, too! Isn't that convenient!
Note: Once again, not bothering to look at the rules RIGHT IN THE Rope Trick SPELL IN THE SRD.
To Wit: Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.
But he thought that since he was 'creating one', instead of maybe 'carrying one' (that got shot down earlier, remember?), he could get away with it.
And he has unlimited spell capacity, because 'spells are cheap'. Righto, baby-o. It's darling how Schroedinger's Wizard gets to hand wave little things like cash, time and spells per day, isn't it?
And naturally he won't define any of his contingencies, because he knows they will get shot down. Every Schroedinger's Wizard with Contingents I've ever seen that actually defined his conditions put his foot in his mouth hard as the language was torn apart, or so open ended getting attacked by a mosquito set it off. There were about a dozen or two on my Lockdown thread, and NONE of them worked. Actually, I think that's where the 'vs anti-magic hat' first became a meme, or close to it.
Astral Projection by a mage is subject to a dispel, as it is a spell. The one by a nightmare is subject to all the others. DO keep up.
Sticking a packet of dust of Negation into a bulb on an arrow or as a sling bullet to explode when it hits an object will trigger it just fine, and create the 'mage hoisted by his own petard' effect quite nicely, thank you. Optionally, the person can just run up to you and throw it in the air while in your face. Guess what? Your hat will drop down around the two of you. Things might get a little squishy. Alternatively, they could, you know, push it off to one side, and you're still in the A-M shell, and probably starting a grapple with a superior opponent.
And now he's trying to argue that because the rules only mention invisible creatures, spot checks can't possibly see invisible objects, either. Oh, how rich. And consistently avoiding the idea that the portal is magical and easily detected. Also, you were kind enough to quote HALF the rule, attempting to mislead everyone, to wit: A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). Now, I'm not sure where a gaping magical portal holds on there, but it's definitely one of those. Since most magical portals are protrayed as swirling pools, I'm probably guessing a 30; in motion, but not 'moving'.
Oh, oh, he's using SHRINK ITEM now for his 'tinfoil hat'. Did you even bother to read the spell description? No?
You DO realize that it has a volume limit of 2 cu feet/level?
A human body is going to require a minimum of 12 cubic feet to fit comfortably within a properly shaped container, and a tinfoil hat is not a properly shaped container. The reason I used polymorph any object is because you could transform a proper barrier device into a comfortable hat. How exactly are you going to be wearing this shrunken item of rather past your level in cubic volume comfortably?
In gaming terms, you have to have an object that completely envelopes your space to stop an emnation from reaching you.
Furthermore, it has to be sturdier then armor or a shield, on the level of a Tower Shield, to provide the needed level of TOTAL COVER deferment, otherwise it's just considered a part of you (akin to throwing a sheet over yourself) and doesn't do the job.
So, at level 75, when you can Shrink Item an object that blocks out a 5x5x6 space to provide Total Cover for you, look us up. Or, you know, wait until you're level 15, 3/4 of the game is done, and you can actually pull off this trick that won't protect you once the AM center is inside your own hat trapping you.
Come now...your arguments are sprouting more holes then a gopher colony. Why don't you go back and do some studying, and come back with some trite optimization rules that might actually work, and don't involve totally broken magical objects that no sane DM will put into his game?
Seriously, you're the first person to even mention the Thought Bottle on these boards in years. Doing so is pure munchkin power gaming, NOT optimization. It's considered on a par with actually letting some of the Pun-Pun and sarluk mechanics actually work.
And I've been signing my name this way for ten years on these boards. If you don't like it, tough. When people start whining about miniscule things, it's a sheer sign they are losing an argument.
==Aelryinth
A couple questions, though: A) What is this "tinfoil hat" that keeps getting mentioned? I understand the term in RL parlance, but I seem to be lost when it's used in D&D.
B) What is the thought bottle? Tempest brought it up as "extra action cheese" in a thread a few weeks back, but I've never heard/seen the term before that.
I mean why would the theoretical Incantrix need to give the whole party presisted fly in order to prevent tracks seeing as all he'd need do would be keep himself alive . Given the anount of resources the "enemies" are devoting to stopping the wizard and the ease with which all of them are getting into close proximity to said wizard the rest of his slacker party should be so lucky as to get him to waste buffs on them. Truly it is the only way to progress the conversation beyond "Wizards are great!" and "Nuh uhhhhh".
I for one at least find it somewhat pointless as Wizard/Incantrix really is great and don't believe it can be brought low by the few "tricks" shown so far on this thread, but believe you me I would find an in-depth arguement as to why anyone would think this way fascinating. Please do take care to leave out things like "since most magical portals are protrayed as swirling pools" though and lay off the caps.
It was originally designed as an anti-energy drain/resurrection level drain item, but given the voluntary nature of it, immediately got scoped into all sorts of ways to redo characters and pay xp costs without actually paying them, pick up templates that cost xp and get all the xp back, etc.
Horribly abusive item. It never, ever sees use in actual play.
The 'tinfoil hat' concept was designed to defeat an anti-magic shell. Basically, you shrink down a big cone, or a polymorphed barrier, and wear it around. When an anti-magic shell touches it, it naturally loses the morph/returns to full size, surrounding you in something with total cover, and blocking off the AM shell since the shell is an emnation.
Your wizard then pats himself on the back and gets the heck out of dodge.
Unfortunately, a tinfoil barrier won't provide total cover, and so won't block the emnation. He'd need something a bit sturdier...and Shrink Item by itself can't shrink down an item large enough to do the job.
Eld, your posting language and style indicates you're probably from the BG forums too, which has an entirely unrealistic interpretation of the game. CJ certainly is, and is suspicously similar in posting style to someone who had a dozen accounts banned from the wizard servers.
Nobody is denying the power of wizards and incantatrixes, but for CJ it's obvious that there are no wizards but Incantatars, because natural selection would take care of it, and he's a regular Schroedinger's Wizard user, meaning trite statements that don't hold up, always having unlimited spell selection and availability, and unlimited time and funds he can adjust on spur of the moment to have the perfect solution to any problem.
And he probably can't word a Contingency effectively, either.
==Aelryinth
Sometimes I wonder why I bother. Some people just don't want to learn.
Do you mind giving up then? You are clearly smarter than everyone, and we can't grasp your super advanced concepts even a little bit. Its obviously a waste of your time to keep posting here.
And creating extradimensional spaces inside of others doesn't 'do nothing', otherwise it wouldn't be 'hazardous'. 'Hazardous' without definition means 'let the DM determine the consequences of doing this, and it should be bad', not 'nothing happens'.
Eesh. metagame, much?
So, no, you can't make that hat, darling.
Whether or not the tinfoil is going to be enough to block the Shell is going to be a DM call. If it's thin, and I mean thin enough to qualify for wearing comfortably as a hat, it isn't going to block line of effect any more then wearing a cloth sheet would.
And wizards aren't melee. Something moves into your space, you likely can't do a blessed thing, because you cast a spell and don't have a melee weapon readied. Or are you going to blow yet another of your unlimited feat selection on making touch spells an AoO? Claim that you're going to be in a polymorphed form all day at level 3 with readied nat weapons while spellcasting?
Uncanny Forethought has limitations on what spells you know, and is yet another feat your incantatrix somehow has. Where ARE you getting all these metamagic feats? Residual Metamagic on top of things, yet. Schroedinger's wizard, unlimited feat selection, too!
None of the serious Optimizers on this board use the Thought Bottle anymore, it was broken as badly as Sarluuk poly other. It's a dead item, and even referencing it is a clear arrow to a munchkin mindset. Welcome to Gillikin land, Schroedinger Wizard, darling.
Given the liberality you're taking with the rules, I find it highly amusing that something that burst up and disperses dust over a 10' area is a no go with you. Oh, wait, it would shut down your wizard. Of course it can't work.
And as for your miss defenses poo-poo...blindsight is available on large numbers of monsters below level 5, tremorsense is available to low level elementals, Detect Invis and Det Illusion can both be made permanent, and the former is long-lasting; Ghost Touch is available as Serren Wood for little cost and doesn't even have to be magical; and True Seeing is available on an erinyes and tons of creatures stronger then one, not to mention once/day magical items and the like, or even Gems of Seeing...and not to mention a single AoE spell would clear out every mirror image you toss up. The idea that you'd blow three spell slots on having all of them up at one time is amusing, especially for multiple fights, and gold costs are going to rein in having them as magical items. Except, of course, Schroedinger's wizard with unlimited gold.
And you're using a Nightmare for Astral Projection. Wonderful. Except a summoned creature is highly susceptible to being dispelled because it's summoned; it's evil and totally untrustworthy; and it's a nightmare. It dies if someone sneezes too hard at it, and gets banished at the drop of a hat, and you with it. Ta, darling.
You note that the entire party is flying at level 8, then talk around the point that it's impossible. You claim infinite amounts of money for wizards, and that's a freaking riot...and where are you fitting in crafting feats amidst all these metamagic feats you suddenly have, darling?
Your arguments are narrow and extremely unconvincing, pure Schroedinger's Wizard. You have unlimited everything, OF COURSE you can handle anything. In the real game, things tend to not work out so marvelously. There's little things like time, money, limited spell knowledge, limited resources/day, and per level gold guidelines that you obviously aren't playing with in the games that you are.
==Aelryinth
Which is why it's better not to waste every single Metamagic Effect on buffs. Try to keep up.
You got 3+Int mod Metamagic Effect per day for 3 levels of Incantatrix, for more 4 levels you got ONE instant metamagic that does the same thing Metamagic Effect does, so you don't want to waste Metamagic Effect uses because you got ONE extra use after spending 4 more levels?
Please.
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Sorry, no, darling. THe spell even quotes a SIZE LIMIT, not a mass limit. It's looking at area, and you have to abide by the area rules.
And look, your wizard is falling back on Celerity, which if he plays EVERYONE is going to use since it's the I WIN button, and somehow he has an unworded contingency that does the job. Perfect Schroedinger's wizard again!
And he poo-poos how easily his superb defenses can be overcome with fewer spells (A couple summoned/called monsters) then he uses to put them up in the first place. Double standards, much?
His nightmare defense made no sense whatsoever.
He poos the fact you're talking about infinite gold, infinite buffs, and infinite feats. Classic Schroedinger Wizard again.
And suddenly all wizards have Uncanny Forethought as a class ability. Wow, when did that happen?
And you can't break WBL unless the DM lets you break it. That's all there is to THAT.
So, yeah, really not seeing his arguments here. Just the words of someone who is uttering stuff that just isn't true.
==Aelryinth
And you're still falling back on Celerity as a defense. Laughable.
And your nightmare defense still doesn't make sense to the original argument, regardless of your dismissals, which means you're hand-waving supremacy again, little Schroedinger.
And yes, arbirtrary feats, golds and stuff is all pitifully easy if you don't have to keep track of those things. Unlike, you know, the game requires.
Oh, right. Odd. Don't see Uncanny Forethought on most wizard builds out there. Even the optimizer builds here. Strange, that. And unlike Natural Spell, it's not core, either. It's not even a comparison on allowability and play frequency.
BWAHAHAHAHA. You can break WBL if the DM DOES NOT ALLOW IT? BWAHAHAHAHAHA.
It's really, really depressing that you don't know what you're talking about, and yet you post like nobody else does, and only you do. Total BG forum attitude, Schroedinger wizard and all.
==Aelryinth
Yeah I know ECL 24 is crazy. But I am very excited and got pigeonholed a lot by the choices. I am making a wizard type guy, can some one help me with it? I know it will be focused specialist, with some levels of archmage. But what else to throw in? Also, DM is very experienced and strict on "broken things", so I am making a powerful but not broken char.
Thanks a lot!
Chaoz
If you say that your DM is against breaking the action economy how about playing a mind rapist? a build Like Enchanter Wizard 3/ Spell Thief 1/ Master Specialist 10/ Mind Bender 10 wouldn't be horribly bad and fall in line with what I take your DM's opinion of acceptable optimization to be. Throw in master spell thief and you can steal any spells from forbidden school from other spell casters, mind sight will allow you to tell if a creature has an intelligence score or not (letting you know if they can be enchanted at all), and practice spell caster will eat up most of the lost levels in terms of your CL. Master specialist and mind bender also give boosts to the caster level of enchantment spells, so you would start out with a base caster level of 23 (assuming you take practiced spell caster) but your enchantment spells will actually have a caster level of 29.
I believe you mentioned that your DM has limited you to a set number of "controlled" characters (I'd quote the post, but I don't really feel like trudging through the quagmire of debate right now), so a good question would be does he consider dominated or charmed monsters to fall under that ruling? If yes, then I would opt for something else, if no, then prepare to be the face of the party as most people who see you will probably like you due to your magic is making them, a decent diplomacy check, or because they are drooling and awaiting your command to smash things. Also look forward to decent discounts on magic items ( I say discounts because charming a person into 10% off may be accepted by your DM, whereas most would outright kill you off for dominating shop owners into giving you things) and free room and bord at the local lords houses cause they thing your just fine and dandy.
Edit: Also look into the feat arcane disciple to see about adding spells from the domination domain onto your spell list. It could lead to some fun.
Yeah I know ECL 24 is crazy. But I am very excited and got pigeonholed a lot by the choices. I am making a wizard type guy, can some one help me with it? I know it will be focused specialist, with some levels of archmage. But what else to throw in? Also, DM is very experienced and strict on "broken things", so I am making a powerful but not broken char.
Thanks a lot!
Chaoz
What epic rules your DM going to apply, he going to use the Epic Level Hanbook Update or the Standard 3.5 Epic Core????
At this level maybe you need a good Hp maybe a template and good support spells like greater celerity,greater teleport, nondetection, mind blank, Moment of Prescience, true seeing, assay spell resistan and others.
I'm sorry, but could you clearly present a situation with a moderate chance of occurance in which the Swiftblade's 6/10 casting, crappy prerequisites, full BAB *yay?*, and so-so buffs while hasted are better than the insanity that is the Incantatrix? I feel like a few of these would really help your case.
It's quite simple actually, you need to be an Evil character with 9 levels of Swiftblade and 3 of Incantatrix, the others levels are meant to fulfil requisites and improve this build's power (adding levels of good classes like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and just go to level 10 Swiftblade if you go epic because then you'll get 9th spells and Practiced Spellcaster will fix the 6/10 casting).
Without further ado:
Cast Masochism/Sadism spell from Book of Vile Darkness and then get i REALLY high Spellcraft check very easily, now you just need to cast any buff you want in yourself and turn them Persisted with Metamagic Effect from Incantatrix 3, and there is NO limit for that, while Cyclone_Joker's build relies on Instant Metamagic and Vestige Metamagic that will end after like 4 daily uses, still he acts like he could buff himself forever with his build.
It's not even necessary adding more Incantatrix levels after that unless you want Bonus Metamagic Feats, because all the others Incantatrix's abilities focus on aplying these metamagics, and you already can do that with ease through Masochism/Sadism + Metamagic Effect, so more levels of Incantatrix would be almost irrelevant in this case.
If you don't wanna play as an Evil character you will have to:
1)Rely on CJ's build, which doesn't completely outclass Swiftblade like he says, but is better than Swiftblade about the buffing thing, still Swiftblade is better at other situations and CJ's free Persisted Spells runs out quickly (like 2 Instant Metamagic per day and 2 Vestige Metamagic);
2)Rely on other ways of getting high Spellcraft check, then pick up only 3 levels of Incantatrix and you are done, you even don't need to be a Swiftblade along with these 3 levels of Incantatrix, but higher Initiative + Extra Actions + 50% miss chance for ALL attakcs against you = REALLY useful.
If you don't wanna Swiftblade then go with Dweomerkeeper, IotSV, Wyrm Wizard or something like that, but i believe i already made my point that is: Swiftblade abilities ARE good, and for someone like CJ who always talk about how 10 levels of Swiftblade are redundant/are not worth, is surprising that he takes all 10 levels of Incantatrix if it's possible to do better with just an Evil spell and 3 levels of the aforementioned class.
About CJ's post: I won't quote it because Aelryinth, Armisael and Draco1119 already told the same things i think.
I'm sorry, but do you understand how this game works? It is so trivially easy to raise skill checks.
Did i said anything different?
I even said if you don't want to be evil and rely on such spells, then you should rely on other ways of getting high Spellcraft.
And Metamagic Effect DOES have limited number of uses, which you'd know if you actuallly read the ability instead of parroting bad advice.
My bad, but 3+Int modifier is still more than your build (you have around 2 Instant Metamagic, 2 Vestige, and so on), and is easy to get high Int mod, so...
Now, the build I've made uses DMM(With Southern Magician to get Divine spells), Vestige Metamagic, Instant Metamagic, Residual Magic, and Metamagic Effect, for truly insane levels of persisting. Now, try to keep up. I'm trying to keep it simple, but I'm not sure I can make it slower for you.
All of it is irrelevant/redundant/not worth (except for Southern Magician that i can get for my builds too) because Metamagic Effect + High Spellcraft = You persist any spell in the game, you don't need to invest in a bunch of Instant and Vestige and such Metamagic.
Swiftblade in other way hasn't abilities that are redundant with Metamagic Effect, so it can still uses its maximum potencial and do not lose time improving your metamagic powers since you already has the best ability for that.
Good god, do you understand how this game works? Masochism and Sadism are irrelevent. Your "build," if such a bad one can be called such, is wastin 9 levels and 3 CL on garbage.
Lol how contradictory you are, sometimes you says Incantatrix is awesome and now says 3 levels of it are garbage. And if these spells are irrelevant is irrelevant, i just used them as examples, any way of high Spellcraft check can do it.
All of those 'benefits" are either crap, or so easily replicatable that they aren't worth mentioning. And, no, a Swiftblade will NOT go first.
Which are replicatable? Polymorphing into a Choker to get an extra action? Buffing your Initiative to go first?
All of it is cumulative with Perpetual Options and Arcane Reflexes.
But Metamagic Effect + Instant Metamagic? They're not cumulative, Metamagic Effect already does the better that can be done.
First off, Wyrm Wizard is not good enough to make that list with Dweomerkeeper and IotSFV.
Whatever, it's just that the possibility of get any spell from any class is nice.
Snip
Glad to see you made a build that has clipped wings and trouble meeting feat prerequisites, as well as getting pulled in ten directions. Elegance, man, elegance. Power trips only work if they are stylish and...well, can actually be pulled off.
Then, contigency can't have a spell of more than 6 lv to be use when the conditions are met, and you can only have one on yourself at anytime.
By the way, what is your daily buff routine with your so called unkillable Incantatrix?
Ho and nice build for a lv ....40 character: "Wizard 1/Anima Mage 7/Incantatrix 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Mindbender 1//Factotum 8/Telepath 12"
Yeah I know ECL 24 is crazy. But I am very excited and got pigeonholed a lot by the choices. I am making a wizard type guy, can some one help me with it? I know it will be focused specialist, with some levels of archmage. But what else to throw in? Also, DM is very experienced and strict on "broken things", so I am making a powerful but not broken char.
Thanks a lot!
Chaoz
Which says nothing. Come back with some actual rules.
Take a look at the note:
It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.
Sure, the bag of holding is a nondimensional item, but you wouldn't be able to rope trick into another.
Gestalt build, bro. Try to keep up with the conversation.
Not everyone has knowledge of gestalt rules, especially since it's a variant rule that comes from a book full of variants.
Which means your build has nothing over a standard incantatrix.
Yes it has, because it does not need 10 levels of Incantatrix for being God at buffing & persisting, it only needs Metamagic Effect.
It's a good thing the build I brought up can use it, too. 'Cuz, yanno, it's an Incantatrix class feature, and all?
You just need Metamagic Effect.
All of the swiftblade abilities are redundant. All are easily replicatable with buffs.
Good PrCs bring new abilities or enhance existing abilities. Swiftblade gives a lot of abilities the wizard already had, at the cost of a bunch of garbage feats, 10 levels, and 4 CL.
Replicatable abilities are one thing, cumulative abilities are another. All the abilities Wizard already has aren't replacing Swiftblade abilities, they stack, what means, they enhance existing abilities exactly like you said.
Which matters how, exactly? The three levels of Incantatrix will do all the work. These class features are trash.
Exactly, the three levels of Incantatrix will do all the buffing & persisting work, what means other Incantatrix abilities are replicatable with Metamagic Effect, what means you don't need more levels of Incantatrix.
Swiftblade in another way doesn't have replicatable abilities, but cumulative. All the spells that do the same as Swiftblade can stack with Swiftblade abilities, with Blink and Wannabe + Evasive Celerity being the only exception.
Talking about Incantatrix, its Metamagic Effect does the same job as Instant Metamagic and such, but much better, so who is spending class levels with redundancy is you.
And no, i don't think 10 levels of Incantatrix are garbage, i'm just trying to use your twisted logic.
There is so much wrong with this the only reasonable response is
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Nice champz, you're running out of arguments.
Which is something Wizards already had. If you want more, don't waste time with Wyrm Wizard, just play a damn Mystic Theruge.
The point is that Wyrm Wizard can get ANY spell. For instance:
Wizard/Archvist/Mystic Theurge can get any divine spell and almost all arcane spells, but it can't achieve spells like Arcane Fusion, Arcane Spellsurge, Greater Arcane Fusion, and others exclusive spells from Sorcerer and other arcane classes.
oh, and sorry, the feat is Called Dimensional Spell here? THe one that lets you strike at extradimensional, ethereal, and incorporeal targets without them manifesting on the prime? Thus, you can bombard people in extradimensional spaces without them being able to do anything back to you.
Tinfoil hats work right up until someone spends 1k gp and throws a packet of dust of dispelling against your chest, whereupon you are immediately trapped inside your own bloody protective hat with your personal A-M shell, at which time they carve through it and waste you. Or maybe thy just walk up to you and trigger it while standing in your face, and your hat comes down and you're trapped inside an A-M shell with a swiftblade gish, still hasted.
Seriously, dumb tactic.
Contingent spells activate AFTER something has happened, not before. They are not-preemptive, and have no capacity to make detect events that have not happened, make rational decisions, anticipate, or make judgement calls. Eesh. Classic spellcaster error, allowing Contingent spells to do more then they are capable of.
Craft Contingent Spell is not a Contingency spell. It's a magic item rendered as one shot spellcasting, and follows all the rules thereby. Trying to present it as a spell, not a Crafting feat, is quite precious of you. You're effectively saying, the instant you quote this feat, that "I have whatever magic item I choose to have at whatever time I choose to hate it."
i.e. Schroedinger's Artificer, by way of Craft Contingent. Precious, precious of you. Totally wrong, but precious.
And trying to ignore the fact that if Celerity wins all fights, anyone with more then a 3 Int will have a celerity effect at hand, is wonderfully obfuscatory of you. Do continue with the closemindedness, and keep that hand on your face. Maybe you can see better with it that way.
==Aelryinth
Vacuum The Cleaner
Commoner 23 / Thrallherd 1 ... a little attention to Knowledge (Religion)
known to mutter under his(her/its) breath: "I'm bad, I'm bad, you know it."
Since VD obviously doesn't understand how the build works, and probably not even how the GAME works, as well as his apparent thought that only Swiftblades get Metamagic Effect, I think I'm done with him.Notice how he's ignoring that his Rope Trick trick is utterly trashed, and he missed it. At the levels you use Rope Trick, sticking a big bonfire underneath it to fill it with smoke and heat should work fine, or the people suffocate within. SPell limitations, ya know.
Oh, you're adorable.
First off, there's the issue of locating the Rope Trick. Second of all, you're assuming that a level 8+ wizard has no protections against this. So, what level is it that this wizard will be fighting enemies with rapid, highly powerful divinations that can cross planes?oh, and sorry, the feat is Called Dimensional Spell here? THe one that lets you strike at extradimensional, ethereal, and incorporeal targets without them manifesting on the prime? Thus, you can bombard people in extradimensional spaces without them being able to do anything back to you.
Oh, you mean Transdimensional Spell? You mean the one that is total crap and nobody ever takes unless they decide they specifically need when running around in a Metamagic Storm?Tinfoil hats work right up until someone spends 1k gp and throws a packet of dust of dispelling against your chest, whereupon you are immediately trapped inside your own bloody protective hat with your personal A-M shell, at which time they carve through it and waste you. Or maybe thy just walk up to you and trigger it while standing in your face, and your hat comes down and you're trapped inside an A-M shell with a swiftblade gish, still hasted.
Seriously, dumb tactic.
First off, source? Second off, acting like a wizard would actually get hit by something? With AC high enough, and over a 95% miss chance? OkayContingent spells activate AFTER something has happened, not before.
Incorrect. They can be set up like readied actions.They are not-preemptive, and have no capacity to make detect events that have not happened, make rational decisions, anticipate, or make judgement calls. Eesh. Classic spellcaster error, allowing Contingent spells to do more then they are capable of.
Wrong. You just obviously have no idea how to word things.Craft Contingent Spell is not a Contingency spell. It's a magic item rendered as one shot spellcasting, and follows all the rules thereby. Trying to present it as a spell, not a Crafting feat, is quite precious of you. You're effectively saying, the instant you quote this feat, that "I have whatever magic item I choose to have at whatever time I choose to hate it."
i.e. Schroedinger's Artificer, by way of Craft Contingent. Precious, precious of you. Totally wrong, but precious.
Wrong. Wizards have no feat at level 12, just as Druids don't have one at 6. They instead get Craft Contingent Spell.
And how adorable! You're acting like crafting actually COSTS anything.
Pro tip: Crafting has a flat cost of 20,000 GP and 500 XP. As much crafting as you could possibly want costs exactly that much.And trying to ignore the fact that if Celerity wins all fights, anyone with more then a 3 Int will have a celerity effect at hand, is wonderfully obfuscatory of you. Do continue with the closemindedness, and keep that hand on your face. Maybe you can see better with it that way.
==Aelryinth
There is so wrong here, I don't know where to start.
Oh, you're precious.
You're saying that all wizards use Rope Trick, and yet obvously nobody knows anything about Rope Trick. Why all the footprints come to this one point and vanish. Why Detect Magic shows a swirl in the air. Why a DC 20 Spot check can tell there's something up there.
And even more precious, assuming all wizards at level 8 have Resist Energy/Fire AND protection against suffocation in place.
Precious, indeed!
As for Transdimensional SPell: You mean that feat that becomes EXTREMELY USEFUL when every wizard and their mother is holed up in extradimensional spaces and thinks they are the perfect defense? And which can be made into a lesser Metamagic Rod for a low, low cost to bedevil idiotic wizards with?
That feat? Oh, let's just poo-poo the cheap and easy way to defeat my blatant Rope Trick effect that everyone uses but nobody knows about. Oh, how darling.
Oh, and the wizard never gets hit. All those things that have True Seeing, blindsense, tremorsense, spot checks through the roof, and all the enemy NPC's that can have whatever the DM wants, striking at a guy whose Touch AC isn't going to mean much once his miss chances are totally foiled, and whose AC is then absolutely in the toilet once he's in an A-M shell. Because we all know that every wizard uses magic to buff his AC and do miss chances, but nobody knows that's what the wizard does, so he must be invulnerable.
That precious wizard. Yes. As if people won't find ways to overcome the wizard's defenses, generally with far less effort then he spent putting them up.
And then with Contingent Spell! Which, unfortunately is not a magic item, and so Wish cannot duplicate it. And Contingent SPells respond to things, you precious boy, they don't anticipate them. they have no capability to anticipate, you have to word them to respond to what happens, not what is going to happen...it's right there in the spell description. I would love to see some of your darling wording of all these Contingent spells you have infinite amounts of, just so you could watch them get flushed down the toilet. I would also love to see how you replace them so very, very quickly after they get expended...no, wait, I'm sure you use the 5 minute adventuring day and leave the world to burn if your precious contingencies go off and leave you bereft. Yes, that sounds like the smart Schroedinger's wizard play.
And then you bring up the whole idea that Wish can take the place of all Item Creation feats, and then look down on people creating Celerity items wholesale to deal with the Celerity "I Win" button. It appears that only precious people like you are allowed to abuse the rules wholesale with rules-bending, while making simple wondrous items with Celerity are not allowed because they'd disrupt your wonderful worldview.
What a precious chi-er, wizard you are. The rest of the world is totally stupid and could NEVER figure out how to overcome the defenses that obviously every single spellcaster in the world must use, because they are the One True Way.
==Aelryinth
Ael...
For the most part your suggestions seem like they'd work fairly well against any poorly played wizard. However that's not to say that with a large amount of preperation and equal part large amount of luck that it wouldn't be possible to kill a competently played, built, and paranoid wizard. I just prefer calling it is what it is most of the time, a vindictive DM. Of course it could go back and forth all day with you suggesting more "Obvious" counters and others suggesting more "Obvious" defenses. The real point is that a so-so (make no mistake, it's a fun and flavorful class) gish prc has little place in an optimized wizard build.
Also... What the hell is "chahar aina, dastana" armor? Are those special materials, enchantments, what?
Somehow, despite the fact he's always been using Rope Trick, he's now deferring it to level 8 when he can sleep through the night.
And somehow, the ENTIRE PARTY CAN FLY ALL DAY by this level.
And all he has the money to automatically have all the proper defenses for whatever you throw at him without straining his magical capability.
He natters on about an 80% miss chance that is actually zero, because he won't support it.
And doesn't realize the DC 20 spot check is for invisible objects, too. Not to mention a simple Detect Magic. And people suspecting it's there. Oh, right, nobody knows that all wizards use Rope Trick. Got it!
Then, he's going to NEST TWO EXTRA-DIMENSIONAL SPACES!!!!! LOL. And somehow not be obliterated.
And THEN, we magically jump to level 13, and he must not be uber, because now he's relying on the cleric in the party!!! And as we all know, Plane shift, that wonderfully accurate transportation spell that sets you down somewhere within a couple hundred miles of your destination. Yeah. I mean, c'mon, if you're going to do that, just say you're going to teleport home at night, right?
He's tossing out 'Contingency will do this and that' without daring to provide wording of all these delicious can't-fail contingency spells.
He doesn't realize that everyone and their mother now knows about the tinfoil hat, and will put the a-m shell up on him point-blank, not go running up with it already active. Leaving him trapped inside his own un-polymorphed hat inside an a-m shell, waitinig for his enemies to sunder it and him. Dust of negation bulb on an arrowhead from a missile guy with improved precise shot, ignoring all miss chances, yay!
Of course, he's only going to have such a hat in the late 1/3rd of the game, but Dust of Negation is available considerably before then.
===========
In other words, there are things wizards can do, and by now, they are rote. On the flip side, people of that level messing with wizards know the wizards can do that stuff, and pull it off.
Astral Projection means you are vulnerable to anything that hedges out extraplanars...plus you can get dispelled, or dismissed. One spell of much lower level to counter your spell.
And you're relying on a nightmare to do that? oooookay...
The problem iwth being paranoid is that when the people really are out to get you, they know the defenses you'll use and they will overcome them, and they don't have to go to extremes...they just have to have the right spells. While said paranoid wizard has to spend copious amounts of time, money, xp to try and have those defenses in place, while his enemies can take them and him down that much quicker.
Schroedinger wizard is theory-craft. With unlimited time and money and crafting ability, of course anything is possible. Unfortunately, wizards live in the real world with everyone else, and and it just isn't that easy.
==Aelryinth
Since VD obviously doesn't understand how the build works, and probably not even how the GAME works, as well as his apparent thought that only Swiftblades get Metamagic Effect, I think I'm done with him.
And obviously you don't know how to read because i never said that only Swiftblade gets Metamagic Effect, what i said is that i'm getting 3 levels of Incantatrix to make the build work while you are spending 10 levels of Incantatrix to do the same thing a level 3 does.
Ael...
Totally relying on Metamagic Effect for your buff routine not only removes flexibility,
No, it doesn't. The flexibility of Metamagic Effect by itself is already much better and wider than Instant Metamagic's flexibility. Adding Instant and Vestige Metamagic on the build doesn't do anything that Metamagic Effect can't do.
but loses out on the absurd versatility of Metamagic Effect,
You don't lose anything, i don't know from where did you get that idea. Metamagic Effect's versatility is the same with or without Instant Metamagic because it does the same Instant does but better, so adding Instant doesn't do anything new.
and limits your number of buffs/day.
3+Int mod per day isn't limited, it's more than your daily uses of Instant and Vestige Metamagic.
Furthermore, Metamagic Effect is only useful on persistable buffs. My build has a wider range of useful buffs, because it can make use of the various ways to make non-persistable spells persistable.
Turning Non-Persistable Spells into Persistables there is NOTHING to do with Metamagic Effect, Instant Metamagic or such. These Incantatrix's abilities will only help to Persist spells after you make them someway persistable, so you're still wasting 10 levels for something you can do with 3, sorry.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct
Please remember to keep your posts polite, on topic and refrain from personal attacks. You are free to disagree with one another as long as it is done in a respectful manner.
LOLOLOLOL. That, my friends, is the sign of a really weak argument.
Do tell me how you're going to cast 4 Persistent Swift Fly spells at level 8 on other people. What's the level pre-req for Incantatrix? Oh, you can't DO this trick until you are an Incantatrix...if the DM allows the PrC! Hey, great, ALL WIZARDS ARE NOW INCANTATRIXES regardless of what the DM says!
Kewl! But I suppose that's not all that bad, because he's using over half his Persistents on spells for others! Um, what other hundreds of buffs are you keeping on yourself at level 8, now?
Then explain to me why every other wizard in the world isn't doing the exact same thing as you, and everyone over the level of 8 isn't flying all the time.
Oh, look! He pulled out the trifecta of blink (Detect Invis, Ghost touch stops cold), Displacement (an illusion easily defeated by multiple senses) and Mirror Image (foiled by Tremorsense, blindsight, detect Illusion, true Sight, Mindsight). I was expecting invisibility, but Detect Invis and the other divs thwart that, too, not to mention simple Spot checks.
The rules state very clearly that putting one extra-dimensional space inside another is a very bad thing. ANd you're going to be dumb enough to CREATE one? You deserve what happens to you. And WHAM, his wizards all start their adventuring career at 8th level, too! Isn't that convenient!
Note: Once again, not bothering to look at the rules RIGHT IN THE Rope Trick SPELL IN THE SRD.
To Wit: Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.
But he thought that since he was 'creating one', instead of maybe 'carrying one' (that got shot down earlier, remember?), he could get away with it.
And he has unlimited spell capacity, because 'spells are cheap'. Righto, baby-o. It's darling how Schroedinger's Wizard gets to hand wave little things like cash, time and spells per day, isn't it?
And naturally he won't define any of his contingencies, because he knows they will get shot down. Every Schroedinger's Wizard with Contingents I've ever seen that actually defined his conditions put his foot in his mouth hard as the language was torn apart, or so open ended getting attacked by a mosquito set it off. There were about a dozen or two on my Lockdown thread, and NONE of them worked. Actually, I think that's where the 'vs anti-magic hat' first became a meme, or close to it.
Astral Projection by a mage is subject to a dispel, as it is a spell. The one by a nightmare is subject to all the others. DO keep up.
Sticking a packet of dust of Negation into a bulb on an arrow or as a sling bullet to explode when it hits an object will trigger it just fine, and create the 'mage hoisted by his own petard' effect quite nicely, thank you. Optionally, the person can just run up to you and throw it in the air while in your face. Guess what? Your hat will drop down around the two of you. Things might get a little squishy. Alternatively, they could, you know, push it off to one side, and you're still in the A-M shell, and probably starting a grapple with a superior opponent.
And now he's trying to argue that because the rules only mention invisible creatures, spot checks can't possibly see invisible objects, either. Oh, how rich. And consistently avoiding the idea that the portal is magical and easily detected. Also, you were kind enough to quote HALF the rule, attempting to mislead everyone, to wit: A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). Now, I'm not sure where a gaping magical portal holds on there, but it's definitely one of those. Since most magical portals are protrayed as swirling pools, I'm probably guessing a 30; in motion, but not 'moving'.
Oh, oh, he's using SHRINK ITEM now for his 'tinfoil hat'. Did you even bother to read the spell description? No?
You DO realize that it has a volume limit of 2 cu feet/level?
A human body is going to require a minimum of 12 cubic feet to fit comfortably within a properly shaped container, and a tinfoil hat is not a properly shaped container. The reason I used polymorph any object is because you could transform a proper barrier device into a comfortable hat. How exactly are you going to be wearing this shrunken item of rather past your level in cubic volume comfortably?
In gaming terms, you have to have an object that completely envelopes your space to stop an emnation from reaching you.
Furthermore, it has to be sturdier then armor or a shield, on the level of a Tower Shield, to provide the needed level of TOTAL COVER deferment, otherwise it's just considered a part of you (akin to throwing a sheet over yourself) and doesn't do the job.
So, at level 75, when you can Shrink Item an object that blocks out a 5x5x6 space to provide Total Cover for you, look us up. Or, you know, wait until you're level 15, 3/4 of the game is done, and you can actually pull off this trick that won't protect you once the AM center is inside your own hat trapping you.
Come now...your arguments are sprouting more holes then a gopher colony. Why don't you go back and do some studying, and come back with some trite optimization rules that might actually work, and don't involve totally broken magical objects that no sane DM will put into his game?
Seriously, you're the first person to even mention the Thought Bottle on these boards in years. Doing so is pure munchkin power gaming, NOT optimization. It's considered on a par with actually letting some of the Pun-Pun and sarluk mechanics actually work.
And I've been signing my name this way for ten years on these boards. If you don't like it, tough. When people start whining about miniscule things, it's a sheer sign they are losing an argument.
==Aelryinth
A couple questions, though: A) What is this "tinfoil hat" that keeps getting mentioned? I understand the term in RL parlance, but I seem to be lost when it's used in D&D.
B) What is the thought bottle? Tempest brought it up as "extra action cheese" in a thread a few weeks back, but I've never heard/seen the term before that.
I mean why would the theoretical Incantrix need to give the whole party presisted fly in order to prevent tracks seeing as all he'd need do would be keep himself alive . Given the anount of resources the "enemies" are devoting to stopping the wizard and the ease with which all of them are getting into close proximity to said wizard the rest of his slacker party should be so lucky as to get him to waste buffs on them. Truly it is the only way to progress the conversation beyond "Wizards are great!" and "Nuh uhhhhh".
I for one at least find it somewhat pointless as Wizard/Incantrix really is great and don't believe it can be brought low by the few "tricks" shown so far on this thread, but believe you me I would find an in-depth arguement as to why anyone would think this way fascinating. Please do take care to leave out things like "since most magical portals are protrayed as swirling pools" though and lay off the caps.
It was originally designed as an anti-energy drain/resurrection level drain item, but given the voluntary nature of it, immediately got scoped into all sorts of ways to redo characters and pay xp costs without actually paying them, pick up templates that cost xp and get all the xp back, etc.
Horribly abusive item. It never, ever sees use in actual play.
The 'tinfoil hat' concept was designed to defeat an anti-magic shell. Basically, you shrink down a big cone, or a polymorphed barrier, and wear it around. When an anti-magic shell touches it, it naturally loses the morph/returns to full size, surrounding you in something with total cover, and blocking off the AM shell since the shell is an emnation.
Your wizard then pats himself on the back and gets the heck out of dodge.
Unfortunately, a tinfoil barrier won't provide total cover, and so won't block the emnation. He'd need something a bit sturdier...and Shrink Item by itself can't shrink down an item large enough to do the job.
Eld, your posting language and style indicates you're probably from the BG forums too, which has an entirely unrealistic interpretation of the game. CJ certainly is, and is suspicously similar in posting style to someone who had a dozen accounts banned from the wizard servers.
Nobody is denying the power of wizards and incantatrixes, but for CJ it's obvious that there are no wizards but Incantatars, because natural selection would take care of it, and he's a regular Schroedinger's Wizard user, meaning trite statements that don't hold up, always having unlimited spell selection and availability, and unlimited time and funds he can adjust on spur of the moment to have the perfect solution to any problem.
And he probably can't word a Contingency effectively, either.
==Aelryinth
Sometimes I wonder why I bother. Some people just don't want to learn.
Do you mind giving up then? You are clearly smarter than everyone, and we can't grasp your super advanced concepts even a little bit. Its obviously a waste of your time to keep posting here.
And creating extradimensional spaces inside of others doesn't 'do nothing', otherwise it wouldn't be 'hazardous'. 'Hazardous' without definition means 'let the DM determine the consequences of doing this, and it should be bad', not 'nothing happens'.
Eesh. metagame, much?
So, no, you can't make that hat, darling.
Whether or not the tinfoil is going to be enough to block the Shell is going to be a DM call. If it's thin, and I mean thin enough to qualify for wearing comfortably as a hat, it isn't going to block line of effect any more then wearing a cloth sheet would.
And wizards aren't melee. Something moves into your space, you likely can't do a blessed thing, because you cast a spell and don't have a melee weapon readied. Or are you going to blow yet another of your unlimited feat selection on making touch spells an AoO? Claim that you're going to be in a polymorphed form all day at level 3 with readied nat weapons while spellcasting?
Uncanny Forethought has limitations on what spells you know, and is yet another feat your incantatrix somehow has. Where ARE you getting all these metamagic feats? Residual Metamagic on top of things, yet. Schroedinger's wizard, unlimited feat selection, too!
None of the serious Optimizers on this board use the Thought Bottle anymore, it was broken as badly as Sarluuk poly other. It's a dead item, and even referencing it is a clear arrow to a munchkin mindset. Welcome to Gillikin land, Schroedinger Wizard, darling.
Given the liberality you're taking with the rules, I find it highly amusing that something that burst up and disperses dust over a 10' area is a no go with you. Oh, wait, it would shut down your wizard. Of course it can't work.
And as for your miss defenses poo-poo...blindsight is available on large numbers of monsters below level 5, tremorsense is available to low level elementals, Detect Invis and Det Illusion can both be made permanent, and the former is long-lasting; Ghost Touch is available as Serren Wood for little cost and doesn't even have to be magical; and True Seeing is available on an erinyes and tons of creatures stronger then one, not to mention once/day magical items and the like, or even Gems of Seeing...and not to mention a single AoE spell would clear out every mirror image you toss up. The idea that you'd blow three spell slots on having all of them up at one time is amusing, especially for multiple fights, and gold costs are going to rein in having them as magical items. Except, of course, Schroedinger's wizard with unlimited gold.
And you're using a Nightmare for Astral Projection. Wonderful. Except a summoned creature is highly susceptible to being dispelled because it's summoned; it's evil and totally untrustworthy; and it's a nightmare. It dies if someone sneezes too hard at it, and gets banished at the drop of a hat, and you with it. Ta, darling.
You note that the entire party is flying at level 8, then talk around the point that it's impossible. You claim infinite amounts of money for wizards, and that's a freaking riot...and where are you fitting in crafting feats amidst all these metamagic feats you suddenly have, darling?
Your arguments are narrow and extremely unconvincing, pure Schroedinger's Wizard. You have unlimited everything, OF COURSE you can handle anything. In the real game, things tend to not work out so marvelously. There's little things like time, money, limited spell knowledge, limited resources/day, and per level gold guidelines that you obviously aren't playing with in the games that you are.
==Aelryinth
Which is why it's better not to waste every single Metamagic Effect on buffs. Try to keep up.
You got 3+Int mod Metamagic Effect per day for 3 levels of Incantatrix, for more 4 levels you got ONE instant metamagic that does the same thing Metamagic Effect does, so you don't want to waste Metamagic Effect uses because you got ONE extra use after spending 4 more levels?
Please.
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Sorry, no, darling. THe spell even quotes a SIZE LIMIT, not a mass limit. It's looking at area, and you have to abide by the area rules.
And look, your wizard is falling back on Celerity, which if he plays EVERYONE is going to use since it's the I WIN button, and somehow he has an unworded contingency that does the job. Perfect Schroedinger's wizard again!
And he poo-poos how easily his superb defenses can be overcome with fewer spells (A couple summoned/called monsters) then he uses to put them up in the first place. Double standards, much?
His nightmare defense made no sense whatsoever.
He poos the fact you're talking about infinite gold, infinite buffs, and infinite feats. Classic Schroedinger Wizard again.
And suddenly all wizards have Uncanny Forethought as a class ability. Wow, when did that happen?
And you can't break WBL unless the DM lets you break it. That's all there is to THAT.
So, yeah, really not seeing his arguments here. Just the words of someone who is uttering stuff that just isn't true.
==Aelryinth
And you're still falling back on Celerity as a defense. Laughable.
And your nightmare defense still doesn't make sense to the original argument, regardless of your dismissals, which means you're hand-waving supremacy again, little Schroedinger.
And yes, arbirtrary feats, golds and stuff is all pitifully easy if you don't have to keep track of those things. Unlike, you know, the game requires.
Oh, right. Odd. Don't see Uncanny Forethought on most wizard builds out there. Even the optimizer builds here. Strange, that. And unlike Natural Spell, it's not core, either. It's not even a comparison on allowability and play frequency.
BWAHAHAHAHA. You can break WBL if the DM DOES NOT ALLOW IT? BWAHAHAHAHAHA.
It's really, really depressing that you don't know what you're talking about, and yet you post like nobody else does, and only you do. Total BG forum attitude, Schroedinger wizard and all.
==Aelryinth
Yeah I know ECL 24 is crazy. But I am very excited and got pigeonholed a lot by the choices. I am making a wizard type guy, can some one help me with it? I know it will be focused specialist, with some levels of archmage. But what else to throw in? Also, DM is very experienced and strict on "broken things", so I am making a powerful but not broken char.
Thanks a lot!
Chaoz
If you say that your DM is against breaking the action economy how about playing a mind rapist? a build Like Enchanter Wizard 3/ Spell Thief 1/ Master Specialist 10/ Mind Bender 10 wouldn't be horribly bad and fall in line with what I take your DM's opinion of acceptable optimization to be. Throw in master spell thief and you can steal any spells from forbidden school from other spell casters, mind sight will allow you to tell if a creature has an intelligence score or not (letting you know if they can be enchanted at all), and practice spell caster will eat up most of the lost levels in terms of your CL. Master specialist and mind bender also give boosts to the caster level of enchantment spells, so you would start out with a base caster level of 23 (assuming you take practiced spell caster) but your enchantment spells will actually have a caster level of 29.
I believe you mentioned that your DM has limited you to a set number of "controlled" characters (I'd quote the post, but I don't really feel like trudging through the quagmire of debate right now), so a good question would be does he consider dominated or charmed monsters to fall under that ruling? If yes, then I would opt for something else, if no, then prepare to be the face of the party as most people who see you will probably like you due to your magic is making them, a decent diplomacy check, or because they are drooling and awaiting your command to smash things. Also look forward to decent discounts on magic items ( I say discounts because charming a person into 10% off may be accepted by your DM, whereas most would outright kill you off for dominating shop owners into giving you things) and free room and bord at the local lords houses cause they thing your just fine and dandy.
Edit: Also look into the feat arcane disciple to see about adding spells from the domination domain onto your spell list. It could lead to some fun.
Yeah I know ECL 24 is crazy. But I am very excited and got pigeonholed a lot by the choices. I am making a wizard type guy, can some one help me with it? I know it will be focused specialist, with some levels of archmage. But what else to throw in? Also, DM is very experienced and strict on "broken things", so I am making a powerful but not broken char.
Thanks a lot!
Chaoz
What epic rules your DM going to apply, he going to use the Epic Level Hanbook Update or the Standard 3.5 Epic Core????
At this level maybe you need a good Hp maybe a template and good support spells like greater celerity,greater teleport, nondetection, mind blank, Moment of Prescience, true seeing, assay spell resistan and others.