Can't touch this. Crusader (or) Fighter - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Can't touch this. Crusader (or) Fighter

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
cravin
Apr 22, 2008 2:32:06 This build focuses on being able to make as many saves as possible, and not get hit.

Paladin 2/ Crusader 13/ Deep Warden 5
Alternatively - Paladin 3/Fighter 6/ Deep Warden 9/Pious
Templar 1/ OPEN 1
After looking over both builds, The Fighter build Prevents EXP penalties (not sure if anyone cares) and offers a bit of feats, while giving up 4+Int for skills, more skills, and of course, the Maneuvers (Which would be a 7th level maneuver as your highest level maneuver.) The fighter build also has more levels of Deep warden. Which gives a d12 HD, good will AND fort saves, and 6+ int mod for skills.

Both builds have
Race: Dwarf, Desert (UA)
Dwarf, Desert
(UA p11)
+2 Con
–2 Dex
Dwarves have a +2 against ALL spells, this in itself is advantageous. However, The Desert Dwarf Does not have a penalty to its constitution, and it is a prerequisite for Mountain plate armor, and the Deep Warden PrC.

Key Abilities:
Constitution
Charisma
A high con grants not only more hit points per HD, but also is your effective bonus to your AC thanks to the deep wardens 'Stone warden' ability (see below.)
A High charisma assists not only in lending healing abilities from the Paladins 'lay on hands' ability, but more importantly grants a bonus to ALL saves.

Key Features:
Mettle: A successful Will or Fortitude
saving throw that would normally reduce the spell’s effect,
she suffers no effect from the spell at all. Only those spells
with a Saving Throw entry of “Will partial,” “Fortitude half,”
or similar entries can be negated through this ability.
Nuf Said. Being able to Evade for mental and fortitude saves is awesome. Find a way to get evasion with heavy armor and your set (done below). This is 'more' advantageous in the Fighter build because it has more levels of deep warden, which has a good will AND fort.

Divine Grace: At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to
her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
I feel like this is very important, especially when you need to make a REFLEX save, which is your worst save.

Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all
diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as
mummy rot and lycanthropy).
A third level of paladin wasn't Necessary, but this ability is really good, it adds to the 'can't touch this' aspect of this build.

Stone Warden (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a deepwarden knows how to use his strengths to compensate for his weaknesses. He adds his Constitution bonus to AC instead of his Dexterity, if the character's Constitution bonus is higher. The deepwarden loses this bonus to his Armor Class whenever he would normally be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. In such a situation, the deepwarden would still be considered flat-footed.
This feature is what makes this build. It allows you to wear giant armor without the Penalty to AC for Low or no DEX maximums.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a deepwarden gains the ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus (if any, or his Constitution bonus, if it's higher) to AC even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity (or Constitution) bonus to AC if immobilized.
Again, it adds to the 'can't touch this' feel.

Stubborn Mind (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a deep warden has a mental resistance to outside influences. If a deepwarden with the stubborn mind ability is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails his saving throw, he can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. He gets only this one extra chance to succeed on his saving throw. This ability also works against a mind flayer's mind blast attack.
Even if you Do fail from an enchantment spell, you get a SECOND chance to avoid it.

These items arent necessarily Required, but I'm trying not to go over bored with many magic items or anything. This is just the basic build. So basically I am trying to avoid throwing in magical equipment into the build as much as possible.
Non Magical Items:
Mountain Plate (RoS p158 +10AC +0 DEX)
Tower Shield (PHB +4 AC)
Assuming you have a minimum of 20 to your Con, your AC with these will be +29.

I know I just said I was trying to avoid Items, but this is an important one.
Magical Items:
Ring of Evasion (DMG p232):
On Reflex saves for 1/2 damage, take no
damage if save is successful.
No worries about that Reflex save now.

(I am tired and about to pass out, but I just wanted to throw this out there to get peoples general opinion, and of course, any Optimizations would be great to see.)

Books used:
Tome of Battle
Players handbook
Complete Divine
Races of stone
Dungeon masters guide
#2
cravin
Apr 22, 2008 2:34:13 Stone Warden Link for quick reference to anyone who can't find it.

I just came across this item

Tooth of Savnok:
Tome of Magic
You can move at your normal speed regardless of medium or heavy armor, or carrying a medium or heavy load.

Opinions? That 10' move speed sucks.
#3
kaiza
Apr 22, 2008 5:50:16 Yeah, the problem with such builds is the abysmal mobility they have, so it becomes easy for an enemy to just circumvent/ignore them. The best thing you could do to optimise it would be to give it some sort do flying/teleporting method or more movement. Barbarian 1 may be a good start, as well as dipping into psionics for a couple of levels.
#4
andyjames
Apr 22, 2008 6:45:45 Isn't Mountain Plate more or less instant Medium load, and you can't fly with medium load?
#5
ander_spectacular
Apr 22, 2008 9:41:52 Paladin 4 for Turn Undead is really nice. There is also no reason to go Crusader 13 for Mettle when you can pick it up from Pious Templar 1.
Crusader4/Paladin4/PiousTemplar4/Deepwarden2/ would give you more goodies faster, but you will have a serious feat shortage. Maneuvers are better than the vast majority of feats, so Crusader is pretty much better than Fighter in all circumstances. Occult Slayer also gets some nice bonuses to saves and might help with what you are looking for.
-AS-
#6
cravin
Apr 22, 2008 11:09:37
Paladin 4 for Turn Undead is really nice. There is also no reason to go Crusader 13 for Mettle when you can pick it up from Pious Templar 1.
Crusader4/Paladin4/PiousTemplar4/Deepwarden2/ would give you more goodies faster, but you will have a serious feat shortage. Maneuvers are better than the vast majority of feats, so Crusader is pretty much better than Fighter in all circumstances. Occult Slayer also gets some nice bonuses to saves and might help with what you are looking for.
-AS-

What book is occult slayer in?
#7
ander_spectacular
Apr 22, 2008 13:01:58 Complete Warrior.

It requires 2 feats(one of which you already require), which doesn't help the feat tightness.
-AS-
#8
Nathreet
Apr 22, 2008 13:19:33 MAD
#9
robbypants
Apr 22, 2008 13:19:52
What book is occult slayer in?

Complete Warrior
#10
sunsetpsychosis
Apr 22, 2008 16:22:20 A favorite character of mine was pretty damn near unkillable (usually). Its been awhile since I played him, and I only hit level 15 or so in the campaign, but this is the build as I remember it

Marduk Ornvyth ux Bahamuti
Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Warblade 6/Dragon Devotee 5 (flavor)/Fighter 4 (32 point buy, classes not shown necessarily in order taken)
Str 18 (16 bought, +2 class bonus)
Dex 12 (14 bought, -2 racial)
Con 32 (17 bought, +2 level, +6 racial, +2 class, +5 tome of bodily health, )
Int 10 (9 bought -2 racial, +1 level)
Wis 10 (bought)
Cha 6 (8 bought, -4 racial, +2 class)

Feats
Shield Wall
Phalanx Fighting
Endurance
Die Hard
Wild Talent
Heavy Armor Optimization
Shape Breath
Deflective Armor
Shield Specialization (heavy)
Shield Ward
Steadfast Determination
Unnerving Calm

Most of my power laid in my choice of maneuvers, my dwarven fighter buddy by my side, my riduclous Con (and the resulting hit points), and of course the single Con based skill, Concentration. The majority of the maneuvers I chose were Diamond Mind maneuvers, for which Concentration is the main skill. The ones that made my build were the counters that allowed me to use concentration checks in place of my saves (not really important for my already crazy fort saves, but a godsend for my craptastic reflex and will saves) Factoring in max ranks of 18 at level 15 and a +11 Con modifier and my saves were at +29. Of course I had a amulet of health +6 and a neat custom magic item dubbed "ring of mental fortitude" I had my wizard buddy craft me that gave me +10 to concentration checks, and my saves got even more crazy.
And thats just my saves. My armor class was pretty hefty as well. I believe at the time I was wearing +3 adamantine full plate and a +3 heavy steel shield, as well as a ring of protection +3. With my feat selection and Stumpy (my dwarf pal) at my side, my AC was about 48. Oh, and that was my touch AC as well, thanks to shield ward and deflective armor. The stance Pearl of Black Doubt became my best friend, with my AC increasing the more people missed me. And I wasn't lacking in damage dealing potential either, with my choice of Stone Dragon maneuvers providing the extra dice of whoopass that my light weapon limitation would have normally missed.
Oh, and of course there was my breath weapon, which thanks to my con and a Dragon Spirit Cincture was doing pretty good damage on its own, with a high DC. I eventually ended up buying a second breath weapon (cone of force) through a draconic graft. And the two levels of sorcerer spellcasting gained from Dragon Devotee was icing on the cake. Though without magical aid I didn't actually have the requisite Charisma to cast anything, it still enabled me to use magic items. With my cloak of charisma handy I of course loaded up on wands and scrolls, with my class spell selection of course including Expeditious Retreat and True Strike. Needless to say I wasn't very popular with the DM or alot of the other players (who hated the Book of Nine Swords and how I cheesed it, yet couldn't do anything about it because it was an Undermountain campaign run at the local comic shop and the campaign documents said I could), but nobody could refute my staying power and excellence at being the ultimate meat shield.
Obviously I'm very proud of this character, and I can't wait till I get a chance to play him again

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cravin Apr 22, 2008 2:32:06	This build focuses on being able to make as many saves as possible, and not get hit. Paladin 2/ Crusader 13/ Deep Warden 5 Alternatively - Paladin 3/Fighter 6/ Deep Warden 9/Pious Templar 1/ OPEN 1 After looking over both builds, The Fighter build Prevents EXP penalties (not sure if anyone cares) and offers a bit of feats, while giving up 4+Int for skills, more skills, and of course, the Maneuvers (Which would be a 7th level maneuver as your highest level maneuver.) The fighter build also has more levels of Deep warden. Which gives a d12 HD, good will AND fort saves, and 6+ int mod for skills. Both builds have Race: Dwarf, Desert (UA) Dwarf, Desert (UA p11) +2 Con –2 Dex Dwarves have a +2 against ALL spells, this in itself is advantageous. However, The Desert Dwarf Does not have a penalty to its constitution, and it is a prerequisite for Mountain plate armor, and the Deep Warden PrC. Key Abilities: Constitution Charisma A high con grants not only more hit points per HD, but also is your effective bonus to your AC thanks to the deep wardens 'Stone warden' ability (see below.) A High charisma assists not only in lending healing abilities from the Paladins 'lay on hands' ability, but more importantly grants a bonus to ALL saves. Key Features: Mettle: A successful Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce the spell’s effect, she suffers no effect from the spell at all. Only those spells with a Saving Throw entry of “Will partial,” “Fortitude half,” or similar entries can be negated through this ability. Nuf Said. Being able to Evade for mental and fortitude saves is awesome. Find a way to get evasion with heavy armor and your set (done below). This is 'more' advantageous in the Fighter build because it has more levels of deep warden, which has a good will AND fort. Divine Grace: At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws. I feel like this is very important, especially when you need to make a REFLEX save, which is your worst save. Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy). A third level of paladin wasn't Necessary, but this ability is really good, it adds to the 'can't touch this' aspect of this build. Stone Warden (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a deepwarden knows how to use his strengths to compensate for his weaknesses. He adds his Constitution bonus to AC instead of his Dexterity, if the character's Constitution bonus is higher. The deepwarden loses this bonus to his Armor Class whenever he would normally be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. In such a situation, the deepwarden would still be considered flat-footed. This feature is what makes this build. It allows you to wear giant armor without the Penalty to AC for Low or no DEX maximums. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a deepwarden gains the ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus (if any, or his Constitution bonus, if it's higher) to AC even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity (or Constitution) bonus to AC if immobilized. Again, it adds to the 'can't touch this' feel. Stubborn Mind (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a deep warden has a mental resistance to outside influences. If a deepwarden with the stubborn mind ability is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails his saving throw, he can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. He gets only this one extra chance to succeed on his saving throw. This ability also works against a mind flayer's mind blast attack. Even if you Do fail from an enchantment spell, you get a SECOND chance to avoid it. These items arent necessarily Required, but I'm trying not to go over bored with many magic items or anything. This is just the basic build. So basically I am trying to avoid throwing in magical equipment into the build as much as possible. Non Magical Items: Mountain Plate (RoS p158 +10AC +0 DEX) Tower Shield (PHB +4 AC) Assuming you have a minimum of 20 to your Con, your AC with these will be +29. I know I just said I was trying to avoid Items, but this is an important one. Magical Items: Ring of Evasion (DMG p232): On Reflex saves for 1/2 damage, take no damage if save is successful. No worries about that Reflex save now. (I am tired and about to pass out, but I just wanted to throw this out there to get peoples general opinion, and of course, any Optimizations would be great to see.) Books used: Tome of Battle Players handbook Complete Divine Races of stone Dungeon masters guide
#2 cravin Apr 22, 2008 2:34:13	Stone Warden Link for quick reference to anyone who can't find it. I just came across this item Tooth of Savnok: Tome of Magic You can move at your normal speed regardless of medium or heavy armor, or carrying a medium or heavy load. Opinions? That 10' move speed sucks.
#3 kaiza Apr 22, 2008 5:50:16	Yeah, the problem with such builds is the abysmal mobility they have, so it becomes easy for an enemy to just circumvent/ignore them. The best thing you could do to optimise it would be to give it some sort do flying/teleporting method or more movement. Barbarian 1 may be a good start, as well as dipping into psionics for a couple of levels.
#4 andyjames Apr 22, 2008 6:45:45	Isn't Mountain Plate more or less instant Medium load, and you can't fly with medium load?
#5 ander_spectacular Apr 22, 2008 9:41:52	Paladin 4 for Turn Undead is really nice. There is also no reason to go Crusader 13 for Mettle when you can pick it up from Pious Templar 1. Crusader4/Paladin4/PiousTemplar4/Deepwarden2/ would give you more goodies faster, but you will have a serious feat shortage. Maneuvers are better than the vast majority of feats, so Crusader is pretty much better than Fighter in all circumstances. Occult Slayer also gets some nice bonuses to saves and might help with what you are looking for. -AS-
#6 cravin Apr 22, 2008 11:09:37	Paladin 4 for Turn Undead is really nice. There is also no reason to go Crusader 13 for Mettle when you can pick it up from Pious Templar 1. Crusader4/Paladin4/PiousTemplar4/Deepwarden2/ would give you more goodies faster, but you will have a serious feat shortage. Maneuvers are better than the vast majority of feats, so Crusader is pretty much better than Fighter in all circumstances. Occult Slayer also gets some nice bonuses to saves and might help with what you are looking for. -AS- What book is occult slayer in?
#7 ander_spectacular Apr 22, 2008 13:01:58	Complete Warrior. It requires 2 feats(one of which you already require), which doesn't help the feat tightness. -AS-
#8 Nathreet Apr 22, 2008 13:19:33	MAD
#9 robbypants Apr 22, 2008 13:19:52	What book is occult slayer in? Complete Warrior
#10 sunsetpsychosis Apr 22, 2008 16:22:20	A favorite character of mine was pretty damn near unkillable (usually). Its been awhile since I played him, and I only hit level 15 or so in the campaign, but this is the build as I remember it Marduk Ornvyth ux Bahamuti Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Warblade 6/Dragon Devotee 5 (flavor)/Fighter 4 (32 point buy, classes not shown necessarily in order taken) Str 18 (16 bought, +2 class bonus) Dex 12 (14 bought, -2 racial) Con 32 (17 bought, +2 level, +6 racial, +2 class, +5 tome of bodily health, ) Int 10 (9 bought -2 racial, +1 level) Wis 10 (bought) Cha 6 (8 bought, -4 racial, +2 class) Feats Shield Wall Phalanx Fighting Endurance Die Hard Wild Talent Heavy Armor Optimization Shape Breath Deflective Armor Shield Specialization (heavy) Shield Ward Steadfast Determination Unnerving Calm Most of my power laid in my choice of maneuvers, my dwarven fighter buddy by my side, my riduclous Con (and the resulting hit points), and of course the single Con based skill, Concentration. The majority of the maneuvers I chose were Diamond Mind maneuvers, for which Concentration is the main skill. The ones that made my build were the counters that allowed me to use concentration checks in place of my saves (not really important for my already crazy fort saves, but a godsend for my craptastic reflex and will saves) Factoring in max ranks of 18 at level 15 and a +11 Con modifier and my saves were at +29. Of course I had a amulet of health +6 and a neat custom magic item dubbed "ring of mental fortitude" I had my wizard buddy craft me that gave me +10 to concentration checks, and my saves got even more crazy. And thats just my saves. My armor class was pretty hefty as well. I believe at the time I was wearing +3 adamantine full plate and a +3 heavy steel shield, as well as a ring of protection +3. With my feat selection and Stumpy (my dwarf pal) at my side, my AC was about 48. Oh, and that was my touch AC as well, thanks to shield ward and deflective armor. The stance Pearl of Black Doubt became my best friend, with my AC increasing the more people missed me. And I wasn't lacking in damage dealing potential either, with my choice of Stone Dragon maneuvers providing the extra dice of whoopass that my light weapon limitation would have normally missed. Oh, and of course there was my breath weapon, which thanks to my con and a Dragon Spirit Cincture was doing pretty good damage on its own, with a high DC. I eventually ended up buying a second breath weapon (cone of force) through a draconic graft. And the two levels of sorcerer spellcasting gained from Dragon Devotee was icing on the cake. Though without magical aid I didn't actually have the requisite Charisma to cast anything, it still enabled me to use magic items. With my cloak of charisma handy I of course loaded up on wands and scrolls, with my class spell selection of course including Expeditious Retreat and True Strike. Needless to say I wasn't very popular with the DM or alot of the other players (who hated the Book of Nine Swords and how I cheesed it, yet couldn't do anything about it because it was an Undermountain campaign run at the local comic shop and the campaign documents said I could), but nobody could refute my staying power and excellence at being the ultimate meat shield. Obviously I'm very proud of this character, and I can't wait till I get a chance to play him again