Cannith Wand Adept: useless for optimized blastificer? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 alphathegreat Mar 28, 2008 17:59:54	So, I couldn't find this point made elsewhere(could be I'm just bad at searching). If this has been addressed elsewhere, please let me know. It appears to me that in creating a level 20 blastificer, the Cannith Wand Adept would actually be inferior to the alternatives. Compare: Cannith Wand Adept benefits: +2 BAB Saves +1/+1/+3 Identify any wand just by studying it for an extra minute Every level adds +3 to CL and DC of wands you cast Quickdraw wands +1 to attack rolls with wands Dual-wield wands, costing 1d4 charges per wand(avg 5 charges spent overall) spend 1d6 charges from a wand to use as basic action point(no special uses, just adds to dice rolls) dragonmark improves(manifests least mark or gets one extra use of least mark) requirements of note(most aren't worth mentioning): Favored in House or Least Dragonmark of Making 3 levels out of main class(it's a big deal) Artificer, last 3 levels benefits: +1 6th and +1 5th level infusion +3 CL for infusions Bonus Artificer Feat +3 BAB Saves: +1/+1/+2 12,000 craft reserve requirements: none If you take 3 levels of Wand Adept: Lose 1 BAB(+1 to wand attacks helps lessen the pain, but not completely) Lose 12,000 craft reserve points Lose 2 high level infusion slots(very important) Lose the bonus feat Use up a starting level feat on a dragonmark/Favored in House, which while useful for RP, isn't so good for the optimized blastificer Gain that neat +3DC/+3CL Emergency dual-wielding(5 charge average means you'll only be using it to get out of a tight spot) Quickdraw wands The action point thing: again, an emergency measure Improved dragonmark(whoopee) The problems: 1. It takes 2 feats for a normal artificer to dual-wield wands(TWF and Double Wand Wielder), but he ends up with better dualwielding on his wands(3 charges for a double shot, rather than 2d4), and gets TWF(with 2 wands chambers, can definitely come in handy). You lose 2 feats for taking the Wand Adept in the first place, so it's not even a big deal to do. If you feel that blastificers are better served using those 2 feats elsewhere, it makes the Wand Adept even LESS appealing. 2. Quickdraw on wands isn't terribly hard to come by. Wand bracers and the marvelous Heward's Handy Haversack(free action to remove anything from the bag) make this almost pointless. 3. Artificer's monocle replicates, for 1500gp, the Identify wand ability almost precisely, but isn't limited to wands. 4. Finally(and perhaps most importantly), the Craft Reserve loss even calls into question the usefulness of the all-important bonuses to Caster Level. There are two uses for the Wand Focuse ability of the Wand Adept: 1-+3 Caster Level means you can use cheaper wands to reach the same power level 2-+3 DC means stronger wands than are normally possible. -For case number 2, +3 DC helps, but it doesn't exactly make wands effective in overcoming saving throws at high levels(DC for a level 4 wand in a Cannith Wand Adept's hands is 21--not terrible, but it still means high level characters/monsters will resist most casts), so blastificers at that level of necessity will be using wands that don't allow saves. -For case number one, it becomes a numbers game: Cost Comparison Consider the money costs: 12,000 craft reserve. With Extraordinary and Legendary Artisan, the modifer to base cost becomes: .375(base cost)=materials cost .03(base cost)=xp cost Inverted, 12,000/.03=400,000gp base cost 400,000.375=150,000gp materials cost 400,000gp-150,000gp=250,000gp total value gained* Now for the value gained by the Wand Adept's CL addition: cost for each +CL of a level 4 wand=43752=3000gp Given +3 CL from the Cannith Wand Adept, that comes to 9000gp per wand. cost for each +CL of a level 3 wand=33752=2250gp Given +3 CL from the Cannith Wand Adept, that comes to 6750gp per wand Divide the gp gained from the extra craft reserve by the gp gained per wand with the Wand Adept to find the number of 4th-level wands you'd have to get to make up the difference: 250,000gp/9000gp=27.8 wands For 3rd-level wands: 250,000/6750=37 wands
#2 sinfire_titan Mar 28, 2008 19:56:10	Item Familiar takes care of the Craft Reserve decrease. You shunt the 10% into your Reserve to help restock your items. This takes care of the second largest problem the multiclassing gives.
#3 cyrocloud Mar 28, 2008 21:27:57	Bloodlines may make cannith wand adept more likable. with a major bloodline were looking at what a 18 to caster level and dc's for alls spells from wands. I guess you could increase it furter with legacy champion. Assuming you recieve entry at this at 6th level(don't own the book with the class in it) then move in to legacy champ and take full bloodlines you'll get what (3[bloodlines] + 3 [class level] + 6[8 levels of legacy champ])*3=+36 to all DCs and CL for wands. That could save you on buffs and such. I guess if their is an uncapped level 4 or below spell this could be very effective (I think Eye of the Hunter [I think that's the name of the spell that gives you sneak attack die] and wings of fury qualify but I'm not sure.) Also being level six you have access to metamagic spell trigger.
#4 alphathegreat Mar 30, 2008 13:37:26	On review(and as I'm toying with a blastificer for the lvl11 challenge), I've decided that a Cannith Wand Adept does indeed become more feasible around mid-levels. Still, it seems strange that it would scale so absolutely poorly at the top levels.
#5 eldritch_lord Mar 30, 2008 15:02:12	Bloodlines may make cannith wand adept more likable. with a major bloodline were looking at what a 18 to caster level and dc's for alls spells from wands. I guess you could increase it furter with legacy champion. Assuming you recieve entry at this at 6th level(don't own the book with the class in it) then move in to legacy champ and take full bloodlines you'll get what (3[bloodlines] + 3 [class level] + 6[8 levels of legacy champ])3=+36 to all DCs and CL for wands. That could save you on buffs and such. I guess if their is an uncapped level 4 or below spell this could be very effective (I think Eye of the Hunter [I think that's the name of the spell that gives you sneak attack die] and wings of fury qualify but I'm not sure.) Also being level six you have access to metamagic spell trigger. +36 DC is good, but you unfortunately lose some BAB from bloodline levels, so this pigeonholes you to save spells rather than ranged touch spells. Not necessarily a bad thing overall, but it hurts when you need to break out the orb* wands.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

alphathegreat

Mar 28, 2008 17:59:54

So, I couldn't find this point made elsewhere(could be I'm just bad at searching). If this has been addressed elsewhere, please let me know.

It appears to me that in creating a level 20 blastificer, the Cannith Wand Adept would actually be inferior to the alternatives.

Compare:

Cannith Wand Adept
benefits:
+2 BAB
Saves +1/+1/+3
Identify any wand just by studying it for an extra minute
Every level adds +3 to CL and DC of wands you cast
Quickdraw wands
+1 to attack rolls with wands
Dual-wield wands, costing 1d4 charges per wand(avg 5 charges spent overall)
spend 1d6 charges from a wand to use as basic action point(no special uses, just adds to dice rolls)
dragonmark improves(manifests least mark or gets one extra use of least mark)

requirements of note(most aren't worth mentioning):
Favored in House or Least Dragonmark of Making
3 levels out of main class(it's a big deal)

Artificer, last 3 levels
benefits:
+1 6th and +1 5th level infusion
+3 CL for infusions
Bonus Artificer Feat
+3 BAB
Saves: +1/+1/+2
12,000 craft reserve

requirements:
none

If you take 3 levels of Wand Adept:
*Lose 1 BAB(+1 to wand attacks helps lessen the pain, but not completely)
*Lose 12,000 craft reserve points
*Lose 2 high level infusion slots(very important)
*Lose the bonus feat
*Use up a starting level feat on a dragonmark/Favored in House, which while useful for RP, isn't so good for the optimized blastificer
*Gain that neat +3DC/+3CL
*Emergency dual-wielding(5 charge average means you'll only be using it to get out of a tight spot)
*Quickdraw wands
*The action point thing: again, an emergency measure
*Improved dragonmark(whoopee)

The problems:
1. It takes 2 feats for a normal artificer to dual-wield wands(TWF and Double Wand Wielder), but he ends up with better dualwielding on his wands(3 charges for a double shot, rather than 2d4), and gets TWF(with 2 wands chambers, can definitely come in handy). You lose 2 feats for taking the Wand Adept in the first place, so it's not even a big deal to do. If you feel that blastificers are better served using those 2 feats elsewhere, it makes the Wand Adept even LESS appealing.

2. Quickdraw on wands isn't terribly hard to come by. Wand bracers and the marvelous Heward's Handy Haversack(free action to remove anything from the bag) make this almost pointless.

3. Artificer's monocle replicates, for 1500gp, the Identify wand ability almost precisely, but isn't limited to wands.

4. Finally(and perhaps most importantly), the Craft Reserve loss even calls into question the usefulness of the all-important bonuses to Caster Level.
There are two uses for the Wand Focuse ability of the Wand Adept:
1-+3 Caster Level means you can use cheaper wands to reach the same power level
2-+3 DC means stronger wands than are normally possible.
-For case number 2, +3 DC helps, but it doesn't exactly make wands effective in overcoming saving throws at high levels(DC for a level 4 wand in a Cannith Wand Adept's hands is 21--not terrible, but it still means high level characters/monsters will resist most casts), so blastificers at that level of necessity will be using wands that don't allow saves.
-For case number one, it becomes a numbers game:

Cost Comparison

Consider the money costs:
12,000 craft reserve.
With Extraordinary and Legendary Artisan, the modifer to base cost becomes:
.375*(base cost)=materials cost
.03*(base cost)=xp cost
Inverted, 12,000/.03=400,000gp base cost
400,000*.375=150,000gp materials cost
400,000gp-150,000gp=250,000gp total value gained

Now for the value gained by the Wand Adept's CL addition:

cost for each +CL of a level 4 wand=4*375*2=3000gp
Given +3 CL from the Cannith Wand Adept, that comes to 9000gp per wand.

cost for each +CL of a level 3 wand=3*375*2=2250gp
Given +3 CL from the Cannith Wand Adept, that comes to 6750gp per wand

Divide the gp gained from the extra craft reserve by the gp gained per wand with the Wand Adept to find the number of 4th-level wands you'd have to get to make up the difference:
250,000gp/9000gp=27.8 wands
For 3rd-level wands: 250,000/6750=37 wands

sinfire_titan

Mar 28, 2008 19:56:10

Item Familiar takes care of the Craft Reserve decrease. You shunt the 10% into your Reserve to help restock your items. This takes care of the second largest problem the multiclassing gives.

cyrocloud

Mar 28, 2008 21:27:57

Bloodlines may make cannith wand adept more likable. with a major bloodline were looking at what a 18 to caster level and dc's for alls spells from wands. I guess you could increase it furter with legacy champion. Assuming you recieve entry at this at 6th level(don't own the book with the class in it) then move in to legacy champ and take full bloodlines you'll get what (3[bloodlines] + 3 [class level] + 6[8 levels of legacy champ])*3=+36 to all DCs and CL for wands. That could save you on buffs and such. I guess if their is an uncapped level 4 or below spell this could be very effective (I think Eye of the Hunter [I think that's the name of the spell that gives you sneak attack die] and wings of fury qualify but I'm not sure.) Also being level six you have access to metamagic spell trigger.

alphathegreat

Mar 30, 2008 13:37:26

On review(and as I'm toying with a blastificer for the lvl11 challenge), I've decided that a Cannith Wand Adept does indeed become more feasible around mid-levels. Still, it seems strange that it would scale so absolutely poorly at the top levels.

eldritch_lord

Mar 30, 2008 15:02:12

Bloodlines may make cannith wand adept more likable. with a major bloodline were looking at what a 18 to caster level and dc's for alls spells from wands. I guess you could increase it furter with legacy champion. Assuming you recieve entry at this at 6th level(don't own the book with the class in it) then move in to legacy champ and take full bloodlines you'll get what (3[bloodlines] + 3 [class level] + 6[8 levels of legacy champ])*3=+36 to all DCs and CL for wands. That could save you on buffs and such. I guess if their is an uncapped level 4 or below spell this could be very effective (I think Eye of the Hunter [I think that's the name of the spell that gives you sneak attack die] and wings of fury qualify but I'm not sure.) Also being level six you have access to metamagic spell trigger.

+36 DC is good, but you unfortunately lose some BAB from bloodline levels, so this pigeonholes you to save spells rather than ranged touch spells. Not necessarily a bad thing overall, but it hurts when you need to break out the orb wands.