Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Malagent Oct 29, 2012 6:45:47	Hello everybody Below follows the first part of my study over several "exotic" classes that are supposed to add flavour and meaning to the game. The first subject is the Swashbuckler. Let’s compare the Swashbuckler with a swashbuckler – oriented Fighter. I compare them at lvl 6, a low/medium level at which a character starts to show its capabilities. The facts swashbuckler (Complete Warrior, p.11) conventional fighter (PHB, p.37). same race level: 6 (each) same hd (d10) swashbuckler: special abilities + 3 feats fighter (swashbuckler): no special abilities, 7 feats The characters Swashbuckler 6th level Abilities/ feats: weapon finesse, two weapon fighting, weapon focus, dodge, insightful strike, grace +1 Game effect: He strikes with two weapons at -1 primary (weapon focus), -2 off hand. He has +1 dodge bonus. He does x-tra dmg, equal to his Int mod (which in a fighting oriented class normally is not so high) and this only to opponents who are subjected to critical hits. Note that the abilities insightful strike, grace and dodge cannot be used with medium or heavier armor. This limits dramatically his armor selection and makes him very vulnerable. Fighter (swashbuckler oriented) 6th level Abilities/ feats: weapon finesse, two weapon fighting, weapon focus, combat expertise, improved feint, dodge, improved disarm or expert tactician (see. Sword and Fist, p.6 and Sword and Fist Errata, p.3.) Game effect: He strikes with two weapons at -1 primary (weapon focus), -2 off hand. He has +1 dodge bonus. He may apply his Combat Expertise bonus to further improve his AC (but only if need be). He may make opponent lose Dex AC bonus and get advantage to hit him, with the Improved Feint and make an x-tra att should the feint succeeds and if he has chosen Expert Tactician. If instead he has chosen Improved Disarm, he can make easier his disarm attempts. Instead of Impr Dis or Exp Tact he can simply choose to take Weapon Specialization and do more dmg (with the designated weapon, of course). He may even select Imrp Trip. Note that he can make use of all of the above, regardless of the type of armor worn. Conclusion: the “boring” PHB fighter, with the proper selection of feats, can be more effective and versatile than the “exotic” CoW swashbuckler, thus making the latter class nearly obsolete. I would more than welcome any suggestions, remarks, corrections etc.
#2 draco1119 Oct 29, 2012 6:57:47	Two words: Daring. Outlaw.
#3 Andarious-Rosethorn Oct 29, 2012 7:02:14	The Swashbuckler also has superior skill selection and skills/level. I'll leave the arguements about multiclassing options and class blending feats alone in favor of a single class arguement. If you want to compare something with fighter though try Warblade or Crusader next... good times. Or what about a Factotem/Beguiler/Artificer/Spellthief compared to Rogue? Ninja's bad but the rest are... interesting.
#4 Malagent Oct 29, 2012 9:46:34	Two words: Daring. Outlaw. Yeah, right... Point taken!
#5 The_Fred Oct 30, 2012 15:01:45	This is why Swash 3 is such a common "dip". Insightful Strike is the signature ability; after that, sure, maybe then getting all those feats is more useful. I think Swash 3/Fighter 2/??? 1 would likely be better than both. The Fighter might have more options when it comes to feats, but Insightful Strike can't be replicated (at least, not by him) so even if he were better overall, he wouldn't be making the Swash obselete. Besides, we are comparing two not-so-strong classes anyway. All we can say is that at least one thing from CW is not horrendously overpowered.
#6 awaken_D_M_golem Oct 30, 2012 16:40:22	I wanna play Class X, I wanna play it "Style" Y, and I want it to work at Power Level (~tier) Z. The class with more options, is more likely to be able to fulfill any particular XYZ combo.
#7 SwordDisciple Nov 04, 2012 21:25:10	The Swashbuckler also has superior skill selection and skills/level. I'll leave the arguements about multiclassing options and class blending feats alone in favor of a single class arguement. If you want to compare something with fighter though try Warblade or Crusader next... good times. Or what about a Factotem/Beguiler/Artificer/Spellthief compared to Rogue? Ninja's bad but the rest are... interesting. Ninja are not bad. Rather entertaining in fact.
#8 aelryinth Nov 05, 2012 18:34:18	I'm not sure how many feat-equivalents that swashies have, but it's likely only 20ish. Comparing that to a warblade, which ends up with 43, is automatically a losing endeavor. If a fighter compares to a swash, with a whopping 11 feat-equivs, that sort of tells you how weak the class abilities of the swash really are. ==Aelryinth
#9 MrCustomer Nov 08, 2012 9:58:56	I am not that sure about comparing a Swashbuckler with a Fighter, they don't have the same feel. Plus the limits to light Armor. I would be more inclined to compare it with a Rogue
#10 The_Fred Nov 08, 2012 13:36:05	Flavour-wise, Swash is more like Rogue, but it's a full-BAB, d10 class with a bonus to damage on melee attacks. That makes it far more like Fighter - the main issue you have is sucky light armour, though if you want manoeuvrability that's not necessarily a bad thing anway. Also there's little benefit from L4+. Swash 3/Fighter X would probably be better than either.