--EDIT--
Lots of people don't seem to consider my build seriously. Let me summarize the important points here:
Touch AC: 69
Saves: +33/+35/+39 (+46/+48/+52 vs. spells and spell-like abilities)
Evasion and Mettle to cancel all partial effects of successful saves
Claim: Can defeat casters, as long as casters aren't using the overpowered Gate spell. Even Shapechange is OK, after it was errataed to your Caster level in HD (as opposed to double your HD like Gate).
--END EDIT--
Race: Half-Fey Human
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Classes: Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Hexblade 3 / Rogue 2 / Wilder 2 / Sorceror 1 / Arcane Duelist 2 / Warmind 8
Initial Stat Block (28 point buy):
STR 8 0 pt
DEX 12+2=14 (+2) 4 pt
CON 14-2=12 (+1) 6 pt
INT 10 2 pt
WIS 14+2=16 (+3) 6 pt
CHA 16+4=20 (+5) 10 pt
Relevant abilities:
Paladin of Tyranny lvl 2:
Divine Grace (Su): CHA bonus to all saving throws
Hexblade lvl 2:
Arcane Resistance (Su): +CHA to saves vs. spells and spell-like effects
Mettle (Ex): No effect on successful Fort and Will saves
Arcane Duelist lvl 2:
Enchant Chosen Weapon (Ex): +1 enhancement bonus to weapon, stacks with weapon enhancement
Apparent Defense (Ex): CHA bonus to AC
Wilder lvl 2:
Elude Touch (Ex): Gain CHA bonus to touch AC, not to exceed max AC.
Rogue lvl 2:
Evasion (Ex): Avoid the half damage on successful Reflex half save, only works in Light Armor
War Mind:
Chain of Defensive Poster (Ex): +4 Insight bonus to AC at 8th level
Relevant Skills:
Max Listen, Spot, and Use Magic Device. Some others as requirements dictate.
Feats:
1: Quick Reconnoiter
1: Able Learner
3: Tower Shield Proficiency
6: Parrying Shield (Lord of Madness, apply shield AC to touch AC)
9: Dodge
12: Mobility
15: Quick Draw
18: Shield Specialization (Tower)
---
Lvl 20 snapshot:
Items:
+2 Spell-Storing Splitting Returning Javelin (72k)
+2 Greater Dispelling Adamantine Longsword (32k)
+5 Mithral Breastplate (counts as light armor) (30k)
+5 Mithral Tower Shield (25k)
Cloak of Resistance +5 (25k)
Ring of Freedom of Movement (40k)
Ring of Protection +5 and Natural Armor +3 (68k)
Stone of Good Luck (20k)
Vest of Magnificence +6 to all stats(200k)
Scroll of Antimagic Field x10 (16.5k)
Wand of Inflict Serious Wounds (11.25k)
Tome of +5 CHA (137.5k)
Belt of Battle (12k)
Eyes of True Seeing
Other magical items like potions, scrolls, wands, and staves
71k gold left over
---
Stats:
STR 10+6=16 (+3)
DEX 14+6=20 (+5)
CON 12+6=18 (+4)
INT 8+6=14 (+2)
WIS 16+6=22 (+6)
CHA 20+5+5+6=36 (+13)
We'll analyze him under two circumstances, Normal and in AMF.
Normal:
usual AC: 10 (base) + 5 (DEX) + 13 (CHA) 10 (armor) + 10 (shield) + 5 (deflection) + 3 (natural) = 56 (56 touch, due to Elude touch)
combat AC: Fully Boosted AC: 56 + 4 (insight) + 3 (fighting defensively) + 5 (combat expertise) + 1 (dodge) = 69 (69 touch)
Base Fort: 3 (paladin) + 1 (hexblade) + 0 (rogue) + 0 (sorc) + 0 (arcane duelist) + 0 (wilder) + 6 (warmind) = 10
Base Ref: 0 (paladin) + 1 (hexblade) + 3 (rogue) + 0 (sorc) + 3 (arcane duelist) + 0 (wilder) + 6 (warmind) = 13
Base Will: 0 (paladin) + 3 (hexblade) 0 (rogue) + 3 (sorc) + 3 (arcane duelist) + 3 (wilder) + 2 (warmind) = 14
Fort: 10 (base) + 4 (CON) + 13 (divine grace) + 5 (resistance) + 1 (luck) = +33 (+46 vs. spells)
Ref: 13 (base) + 3 (DEX) + 13 (divine grace) + 5 (resistance) + 1 (luck) = +35 (+48 vs. spells)
Will: 14 (base) + 6 (WIS) + 13 (divine grace) + 5 (resistance) + 1 (luck) = +39 (+52 vs. spells)
Evasion and Mettle to cancel side effects of succeeding saving throw
----
AMF:
AC: 10 (base) + 2 (DEX) + 10 (CHA) + 5 (armor) + 5 (shield) + 4 (insight) + 3 (fighting defensively) + 5 (combat expertise) = 44 (44 touch)
Fort in Anti-Magic Field: 10 (base) + 1 (CON) = +11
Ref in Anti-Magic Field: 13 (base) + 2 (DEX) = +15
Will in Anti-Magic Field: 14 (base) + 3 (WIS) = +17
*************
You'll note that I didn't bother writing down anything about the attacks, because presumably the Wizard, deprived of his magical boosts, shouldn't be too hard to hit with a mostly-melee character. Thanks to the Half-Fey template wings, there shouldn't be any trouble getting to the Wizard in an Anti-Magic Field. The Wand of Inflict Serious Wounds is for the Spell-Storing Splitting Javelin.
Thoughts?
--
Edit: Belt of Battle to make things more efficient. First round: activate Belt of Battle for extra standard action, read Scroll of Antimagic Field (using Quickdraw), then attack (assuming he's not too far away).
Alternatively, maybe I could switch in a Improved Grapple into the feat tree instead of the Shield Specialization...
That isn't really a gish though as it has virtually no casting.
Hm, true. I was calling it a Gish because of the Warmind psionic powers.
The End.
Even in an AMF, a Wizard still stands a good chance at high levels. Some can even cast there, and that's when it ends.
Hm, what do you mean? I know Disjunction can negate an AMF with a low probability of success (at most 1/3 probability), but Disjunction requires you to be outside of the field to cast in the first place. Is there a prestige class ability or something that allows a caster to IGNORE AMF?
Contingent spells can all be dispelled (hence the greater dispelling weapon).
Summoned and called monsters can't attack the round that they're summoned. The idea would be that the caster dies before I die. (Actually, summons cease to exist in an AMF, only Conjuration(Calling) monsters stay.)
HD is limited by caster level, no? Looking at MM, a "Very Old Red Dragon" is 31 HD (and casters are going to struggle to get CL past 31), and has a BAB of 31 and STR of 37 (+13), for a total attack bonus of +44, not counting feats. That's not going to hit the 69 touch AC before the AMF comes up, and the AMF comes up during my turn, at which point I can finish my turn with a Belt-of-Battle extra full round action to attack the wizard.
You spy the image of a chuckling dire tortoise, then a mere fraction of a moment later, you are surrounded by gigantic dragons. You are disemboweled. The dragons take your items, go sell them, and give their master the gold.
The End.
... I have no idea what to make of the first part of your response. Shapechange, you mean? That's suppressed by AMF when I approach. Gigantic dragons? Can't act before I do because they can't act on the round they're called/summoned. (And not clear they can hit AC 69 anyway).And they can act in the round they are called. Well... at least they can act as soon as the wizard's Time Stop ends...
Dire Tortoises go first. Wizard casts Maximized, Extended Time Stop. Wall of Stone, Stone Shaped into dome. Prismatic Sphere around that. Shapechanged into Greater Shadow for incorporeal. Then Dragons. What can you do against a dome of solid, non-magical stone surrounded my a prismatic sphere? Oh, throw some walls of force on there too, they don't get dispelled. Antimagic field doesn't even get through the rock dome anyway, as its line of effect is blocked. Also, no AMF, you'd get torn to shreds by Dragons.
Dragons have spells, breath weapons and +51 to hit. What is your to-hit? Include penalties for fighting defensively.
Did I mention casts spells? Antimagic field is a spell. A dragon in an antimagic field beats you in an antimagic field.
In summary: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html
Ninja'd, but mine is slightly more in depth.
Dire Tortoises go first. Wizard casts Maximized, Extended Time Stop. Wall of Stone, Stone Shaped into dome. Prismatic Sphere around that. Shapechanged into Greater Shadow for incorporeal. Then Dragons. What can you do against a dome of solid, non-magical stone surrounded my a prismatic sphere? Oh, throw some walls of force on there too, they don't get dispelled. Antimagic field doesn't even get through the rock dome anyway, as its line of effect is blocked. Also, no AMF, you'd get torn to shreds by Dragons.
Dragons have spells, breath weapons and +51 to hit. What is your to-hit? Include penalties for fighting defensively.
Did I mention casts spells? Antimagic field is a spell. A dragon in an antimagic field beats you in an antimagic field.
In summary: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html
Ninja'd, but mine is slightly more in depth.
Hm, I didn't realize that Gate was double CL.
OK, that hurts, a bit, and requires me to be more creative. Maybe not AMF for now. However, with the huge CHA bonus and Able Learner giving maxxed UMD, this shouldn't be insurmountable. Throw in a few scrolls of Time Stop and Dimension Door and Forcecage, and this should work.So, I'm picturing this as a "Duel in an Arena" scenario, postulating that both combatants must say within the arena (say, a 200 ft by 200 ft room), or else forfeit the fight. (Because otherwise, I could just Plane Shift away, and basically the fight breaks down into who can come up with a good plan to surprise the other.)
(Round 1) Finding myself surround by a Wall of Stone and dragons, I read my scroll of Time Stop.
(Time Stop 1) Dimension Door out of the dome, with instructions to place me 50 feet away from my original position.
(Time Stop 2) Find the caster (retroactively assuming I gave myself an item with True Seeing). Use Hustle power as swift action to move towards him with 2 move actions. (At this point, his Contingent spells go off.) Assuming that he's dimensioned doored somewhere within the Arena, I Dimension Door to him again
(Time Stop 3) Activate Belt of Battle. Read Forcecage Scroll. Read Anti-magic Field scroll. Presumably, Time Stop immediately ends.
Now, you the Wizard find yourself reverted to normal form, in an antimagic field centered me, next to you, and a forcecage just outside of the Antimagic Field.
Question: How are you achieving the Extended Maximized Time Stop? You can only apply one effect from a Metamagic Rod, so presumably the other effect is a class feature or something.
Regarding the dragons, the only real threat is their melee.. with saves above +30, and Evasion and Mettle, there's no real chance for the spells and breaths to affect me.
And as for saves, you aren't so tough to hit when in an AMF.
Also, as for Extended Maximised Time Stop, metamagic rod+arcane thesis :D
And you don't actually need the rod if you multiclass, but I'm assuming wizard 20.
EDIT: And if you dimension door in, not out, well, I'm ethereal, I simply move 15 ft. underground.
After a Quickened True Strike+Dimensional Anchor of course, for some more planning time.
And they can act in the round they are called. Well... at least they can act as soon as the wizard's Time Stop ends...
Gate spells to call a monster requires Concentration to maintain if you don't want to spend 1 minute bargaining, so you can't call more than 1 (at most 1 ancient Wyrm).
Regarding whether it (not they) can act right away, I think this is a rules interpretation question, because the Gate spell doesn't mention when the called creature's initiative is (unlike the Summon Monster spells, for example). When your Time Stop ends, it has just been called, so I'd personally be inclined to think that it acts either on Initiative 0 or the next round on its own initiative. (At least, this is what I would rule as a DM for the Vampire's Children of the Night abilities.)
I know. The wizard is in the rock and prismatic sphere, not you. Sorry if I gave you that impression.
And as for saves, you aren't so tough to hit when in an AMF.
Also, as for Extended Maximised Time Stop, metamagic rod+arcane thesis :D
And you don't actually need the rod if you multiclass, but I'm assuming wizard 20.
Oh, then I can blast the rock with a Disintegrate Scroll and just walk through the Prismatic Sphere with my high saves, and then do the whole Forcecage + antimagic thing.
The Forcecage protects me from the Dragon's spells and breath. (And if that isn't enough, I guess I can copycat and throw a Dome of Stone around the Forcecage before activating the Antimagic field.
EDIT: Mind you, the Prismatic Sphere is OUTSIDE the rock.
EDIT 2: You're forgetting his Contingencies again...
When does it say you need to bargain for 10 rounds, I don't see it.
The spell description for Gate for the "longer calling" refers to Lesser Planar Ally, which does state you need to take at least 1 round to bargain (Hm, that's strange, I swear I read 1 minute or more somewhere).
EDIT: Mind you, the Prismatic Sphere is OUTSIDE the rock.
EDIT 2: You're forgetting his Contingencies again...
Then I'll walk through the Prismatic Sphere first, and then Disintegrate the Wall of Stone after bumping my nose on it (not too much of a difference).
Regarding Contingencies, what spells did you have in mind? I planned for your contingency of Dimension Door or Teleporting away (but staying within the Arena.) Note that I'm doing everything under a Time Stop, so while you can pull off your contingency actions, the turn returns to me right afterwards.
Also, as for Extended Maximised Time Stop, metamagic rod+arcane thesis :D
Wait a minute... you can't Extend Time Stop, it's considered an "Instantaneous" spell (at least according to the Errata, according to some guy on the Fighter 20 vs. Wizard 20 thread). You could Empower it, but that's +2 spell levels, so even with Arcane Thesis, it won't fly.
Anyway, I'll be glad to discuss this Saturday, but I have to get to school in 6 hours, and I want some sleep.
Besides, I need to be well rested for the 7 hours of D&D to follow school. :D
EDIT: Anyway, I never even used all 10 rounds. And again, with Empower, Metamagic Rods.
EDIT 2: If we want to take it out of just Wizard, Incantrix allows w/o metamagic rods.
Also, even with all these things we're fooling with for wizards, I'd like to bring out caster 20 number two. Druid/Planer Shepard as an example of why gish just may not work. Or, Arcane Heirophant for wildshape and companion to beat you in beatstick mode, and wizard spellcasting to beat you in caster mode. :D (heehee)
Hmm... How about a contingencied Gate to call another dragon, contingencied True Strike, Contingencied Dimensional Anchor (on you), contingencied Limited Wish (saves), contingencied Dimension Door out. Oh, and a Time Stop :D
OK, your first Dragon pops out of existence because you're not concentrating on him anymore, and your second Dragon doesn't do anything until next round. Dimensional Anchor requires a touch attack. At the time your Contingency spells go off, I haven't done Antimagic Field yet, so my Touch AC is 69. Good luck with that, even with your True Strike. Oh boo hoo, my Saves take a -7 hit, they're still +26/+28/32 (+39/+41/+45 vs. spells).
The Contingency Time Stop is a bit tricky to think about, because you're doing it in response to me doing it in the middle of a Time Stop. Time Stop's description says that "I'm moving so fast everyone else is apparently stopped." But if we're both moving so fast that everyone else is apparently stopped, then shouldn't we both act as normal?
In any case, what's the trigger condition on your Contingency spells?
No, actually, it's Extendable, it's only instantaneous for the purposes of Persist, mainly a reason pulled out of WotC's rear nether regions for why you can't Persist it.
Anyway, I'll be glad to discuss this Saturday, but I have to get to school in 6 hours, and I want some sleep.
Besides, I need to be well rested for the 7 hours of D&D to follow school. :D
Anyway, I never even used all 10 rounds. And again, with Empower, Metamagic Rods.
Haha, OK, sure, I'd love to chat more later. (Actually I have to give a job interview talk in about 8 hours, so I probably should head to bed as well.):D
You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled.
Also, the thing is that Contingency has a 10 minute casting time. So if you've set up a Contingency spell in advance, I'd have one set up in advance as well, something like "Time Stop when I say 'Funky chicken.'"
PS: The wizard wins. Even if you could get within 10' of him with AMF - you would discover it was only actually an illusion. The real wizard is off adventuring; he'll scry the battlefield and teleport in once he thinks you've wasted enough of your voodoo.
If you're going to spew this much hot air around, you may as well just find a DM and a wizard and have the battle on OpenRPG or something.
PS: The wizard wins. Even if you could get within 10' of him with AMF - you would discover it was only actually an illusion. The real wizard is off adventuring; he'll scry the battlefield and teleport in once he thinks you've wasted enough of your voodoo.
Right, the simulacrum/cohort/illusion/whatever argument. Geez, I can just as easily invoke "That was my simulacrum too, casted from a scroll (Remember my huge UMD score). The real gish is off laying an ambush to kill the real adventuring wizard." I really find these arguments to be pretty silly: of course the way to not die in the Arena is not to be there, and OF COURSE the whole Arena situation is pretty contrived. Usually the fight is settled elsewhere by player (as opposed to character) intelligence. But, since that's hard to gauge, and most ambushes plans rely on some surprise, the Arena fight is the next best thing to gauge power by.
Besides, the only real thing that I've heard to be effective is Gate, calling 50 HD monsters. If this is the wizard's only trick against my gish, then I'd say he's pretty well built.
On a separate note, the Gate spell really is pretty broken as written. Maybe the called monster should also be subject to a (Challenge Rating <= Caster Level) requirement. Hm, I think I'll house-rule that in if ever I run a high-level campaign.
It really speaks volumes that to counter a wizard you need to pack all these spellls along.
And the feat for casting in an AMF, since you apparently don't know about it, is "Initiate of Mystra", from the Player's Guide to Faerun.
PS: Little do you know, all those scrolls you are using were scribed by this wizard, who used foresight and divination to know about this duel 5 years ago. They are in fact faulty, and each of them is covered in explosive runes.
Also, your scrolls are going to be dispelled.
For the record, I think the wizard's familiar could probably kill you.
Also, your scrolls are going to be dispelled.
There's a lovely item in Secrets of Sarlona (?) that simply disables Scroll/Potion use in a 1 mile radius or so.... Constantly. Useful, no?
The only reason I proposed to use all these spells from scrolls in the first place is because the Gate spell is too powerful; can you come up with a different way of killing my character *without* using Gate?
BTW, again, unless the familiar can cast Gate, how the heck does the familiar plan to hurt me?
Of course. The caster uses Shapechange to become a Chronotyryn, casts Quickened True strike+Dimensional anchor and then Wall of stone. After that he places a Cloudkill within the dome.
A Chronotyryn's DEX is 21 (+5), with a -1 size penalty to hit, even with a BAB of +10 and True Strike for another +20, that's only +34. You'd need a natural 20 to hit a touch AC of 69 (and maybe not even then, depending on if we're using the rule variant for "natural 20" counts as 30).
Even assuming that the Dimensional Anchor hits, the Mettle takes care of the Fortitude partial by Cloudkill. It's a matter of waiting out the effects of Dimensional Anchor while cutting through the dome of stone with my adamantine longsword.
Any damage I take from occasional Natural 1's (again, this only occurs if we're assuming a natural 1 is auto-fail, rather than a roll of -10), can be countered by UMD on a Scroll, Potion, Wand, or Staff of Lesser Restoration.
Although, a better plan may be to hack at the Dome for 4-5 rounds, and then drop to the ground with a thud, luring the smug caster in. Surprise round for me when the fighting starts again!
(BTW, thanks for a serious post...)
Something that is at least bothersome to a mage is an arcane archer with antimagic field.
Unfortunately, Anti-magic Field is an emanation around you, rather than the mage. So the difficulty, as in previous discussion, is getting near the mage to trigger the AMF.
Executive Summary for others who have been following the thread:
69 touch AC
+33/+35/+39 saves (+46/+48/+52 vs. spells and spell-like effects)
Evasion and Mettle to cancel partial effects of successful saves
UMD skill of 23 (ranks) + 13 (CHA) = 34
Claim: cannot be beaten by Caster who doesn't use the overpowered Gate spell.
Unfortunately, Anti-magic Field is an emanation around you, rather than the mage. So the difficulty, as in previous discussion, is getting near the mage to trigger the AMF.
Imbue Arrow (Sp): (...) When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster.
That is why Arcane archer is actually useful for something
A lot of posters here could post a build that could beat yours (although whether or not you would accept that fact is questionable gives your immense hubris) but they just don't find your question, build, or arguments interesting enough to do so. You haven't done your homework before posting some retarded build which isn't even that good then you want to come back at people whining that "gate is too good" or say "oh i didn't realize X".
If you just did a little reading on the board you would realize that the question you are posing is flawed in its basic premise. A wizard is best at fighting a 1 on 1 duel against another non-wizard when he is expecting that attacker and has all his resources unexpended. You may be able to beat a wizard at his own game by using UMD to emulate wizard spells but thats just saying a wizard can beat another wizard, really. Crap like flying up to him with a AMF will never work unless you rig the rules of the match so badly in his disfavor that the challenge becomes meaningless. I'm not going to play the one-up game with you about "oh, but then I can just do this" because thats also pointless, you are just too dense to see that the question you are asking is not a very intelligent one and thus I say, retarded thread.
Caster casts dimensional lock, maximized extended maw of chaos and wall of stone dome on you. Oh, lets put wall of force on the wall of stone dome also. What do you do then?
Ah, gotta low those "Will partial" spells. Check out the wording of Mettle in Complete Warrior:
If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect.
Also, not that it matters too much, but Dimension Lock is countered by Bracers of Exit (Arms and Equipment Guide)
Oh and you do understand that if you teleport out of the globe you'll get stuck to the wizards (greater) anticipate teleport and he can prepare a new trap for you within those 2-3 rounds he has?
but look, even if it was clear to us who have seen this argument brought up and rehashed a hundred times on this board that your build actually can beat a wizard20, which it isn't even though you seem to believe otherwise, all you would be proving is that you can beat a wizard by using his own tricks against him which is to say, you haven't proven anything other than that one caster can beat another-- using UMD tricks etc is just the same thing since you're emulating caster class features.
A lot of posters here could post a build that could beat yours (although whether or not you would accept that fact is questionable gives your immense hubris) but they just don't find your question, build, or arguments interesting enough to do so. You haven't done your homework before posting some retarded build which isn't even that good then you want to come back at people whining that "gate is too good" or say "oh i didn't realize X".
If you just did a little reading on the board you would realize that the question you are posing is flawed in its basic premise. A wizard is best at fighting a 1 on 1 duel against another non-wizard when he is expecting that attacker and has all his resources unexpended. You may be able to beat a wizard at his own game by using UMD to emulate wizard spells but thats just saying a wizard can beat another wizard, really. Crap like flying up to him with a AMF will never work unless you rig the rules of the match so badly in his disfavor that the challenge becomes meaningless. I'm not going to play the one-up game with you about "oh, but then I can just do this" because thats also pointless, you are just too dense to see that the question you are asking is not a very intelligent one and thus I say, retarded thread.
Thanks, Mr. "retarded thread" for yet another meaningful comment. Read my executive summary, at the very, very least. I'm using UMD mostly for things like Lesser Restoration and Dimension Door; the highest I suggested was Antimagic Field (level 6 spell). The key point to this build is that the gish is neigh-indestructible. The AMF argument was dropped about 20 posts ago.
You think I'm the one with hubris, Mr. "you are just too dense to see that the question you are asking is not a very intelligent one?" Look, I admit when I got something wrong, like the HD limit of Gate.
Also, I never said that this build cannot be beaten, I'm suggesting it can't be beaten by a caster without Gate. For example, I think a well-built power-charger can easily defeat this build.
The idea is that if this is true, then there is balance at lvl 20, with:
Caster > Charger > Gish > Caster
which would satisfy my aesthetic sensibilities.
The wizard shapes into a chronotyrn, uses belt of battle and maybe celerity for example to get 4 spells out. Then he casts 4 maximized icebergs on you (using rods). 4 giant icebergs fall on you. How much hp do you have?
Oh and you do understand that if you teleport out of the globe you'll get stuck to the wizards (greater) anticipate teleport and he can prepare a new trap for you within those 2-3 rounds he has?
Kudos to you for coming up with a plan with the best chance of success so far. However...
Iceberg is a brutal and direct spell.
When cast, the spell creates a single
large block of ice that drops from the
sky onto a spot you select. The iceberg
then shatters if it encounters a solid
surface. Elephant-sized blocks of ice
scatter in all directions, affecting
nearby creatures based on how far
they are from the center of the area.
Within 20 Feet of the Center Point: Any
creature or object directly beneath the
iceberg takes 20d6 points of crushing
damage (no save) and is buried in snow
(see page 90).
The iceberg shatters when it encounters a solid surface. Fortunately, my gish has a natural fly speed, so he can avoid the problem by just hovering 30-60 feet above the ground.
Ok, so the wizard creates a solid surface under you? Same scenario. Go go Icebergs!
Haha. Well, two things. All of the Wall spells are listed as vertical; can't do horizontal walls by RAW. Even if you could, you need some way of supporting the walls in mid-air (it seems like something I can get around just by flying higher, at the very least). The Creation ones have a casting time of 1 minute, and has a range of 0 ft.
That is why Arcane archer is actually useful for something
Hm, you know, that's actually a really, really good idea. Unfortunately, I don't think I can fit it into my build because Human is important for the Listen and Spot and UMD, while that requires Elf or Half-Elf (not to mention too many feats).
I am looking to swap out the last 8 levels of War-mind with something better though. As it is, the War-mind 8 is only there to give me an extra +4 insight AC.
EDIT: BTW, my girlfriend is from Beijing! Actually, some of my co-workers went to Beijing University to give talks earlier in the year; I didn't go though because I was too busy :/
(notice my cool ice theme)
Also sculpt spell allows me to make vertical walls.
I guess you haven't heard of the column of ice spell. I start, gaining my 4-5 spells. One of them is column of ice (widened if need be) which is raised under you. Then Iceberg Iceberg Iceberg Iceberg Iceberg! (until dead).
(notice my cool ice theme)
Also sculpt spell allows me to make vertical walls.
Haha, you really do know your Ice well. But Column of Ice sucks for this. It allows me to avoid it with a Reflex save, as stated in the spell description, which means I'm on the side of the Ice Column when it's done raising.
Oh, boo-hoo, you can change the Wall spells into a column 30 ft high. I guess I'll just need to start the duel 150 feet off the ground then.:D
Also, 150 feet is 5 walls of stone, which I can easily do inside a time stop, meaning you'll still die even if you say column of ice gives you a save.
Hey, read the column of ice well. You don't get a reflex save, you're not standing on the area of the spell are you? If you were standing on the area, I wouldn't need the spell. I'll raise it 1 foot below you, enough that you are within the area of the no save iceberg.
Effect: One column of ice, 10-ft.
radius and 5 ft./level in height
It doesn't say you can finely control the height of the column. So unless I'm between 0 and 20 feet above the 5*(your caster level) in feet, I'd say I get a Reflex save to avoid either the Column or the Icebergs.
Also, 150 feet is 5 walls of stone, which I can easily do inside a time stop, meaning you'll still die even if you say column of ice gives you a save.
Oh, fine fine fine. This fight will have to be completely aerial (60 feet for a widened column * 10 = 600 feet should be more than enough for now, but on the safe side let's say 1000 feet, placing you still in long range of a spell or the range of an archery bow).
Oh, and if you were thinking of Greater Whirlwind next (I guess it's kind of like ice.. ;) ), the Ring of Freedom of Movement protects against that.
EDIT: Actually, note that the spell description for Column of Ice says it raises from the ground, which means you can't stack one on top of another.
EDIT 2: BTW, I'm getting these great mental images from Final Fantasy VII of Neo-Bahamut raising a platform with your foes up into the skies, and then blasting them.. ^^
EDIT: Hm, which version of Sculpt Spell are you refering to? The one from Complete Arcane says nothing about Fine-Tuning...
Might remember wrong to what extent sculpt spell allowed area formation. Anyway, because column of ice is permanent, I would consider the top of the column to be ground too. Afterall ground refers to solid surface which my column of ice creates.
No, because you can topple the column of ice over, so it's not permanent. Besides, even if it is permanent, I don't think that would allow stacking...
Consider that you're not allowed to cast a Column of Ice rising from the roof of a building, rather than the ground floor, and the roof of a well-built building is pretty permanent. RAW, you definitely cannot stack.
Now that I think of it, can I add widen spell to ice column?
Fine. Let's do this the hard way then. I take arcane thesis column of ice, metamagic school specialization conjuration (or something else that lowers the metamagic cost). Now I can add column of ice with only +1 to spell level. I make a level 9 column of ice meaning it's a widened widened widened widened widened column of ice which I widen with a metamagic rod. Now I can create a 6400 feet high column of ice from the ground!!!! ICEBERG!
Now that I think of it, can I add widen spell to ice column?
Lol! I must say, this has been great fun.
First, a question: Can you apply multiple Widens to the same spell? Because if you can, then Arcane Thesis and Practical Metamagic allows you to do Empower for +0 cost...
So you get INFINITE damage from (Empower)^n Fireball.
Second, a comment: Stacking Widens, even if allowed, doesn't do that. DnD stacking is such that you would get a triple from applying 2 doublings, so your puny Column of Ice is only 700 feet high.
Third, actually, I think you're right about not able to apply Widen to Column of Ice:
Benefit
You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell’s area increase by 100%.A widened spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.
But if column of ice doesn't work, I don't think there is any other way to defeat your gish.
(yes, that was sarcasm)
No, because you can topple the column of ice over, so it's not permanent. Besides, even if it is permanent, I don't think that would allow stacking...
Consider that you're not allowed to cast a Column of Ice rising from the roof of a building, rather than the ground floor, and the roof of a well-built building is pretty permanent. RAW, you definitely cannot stack.
Ghostaxe I think you're overlooking several important things here.
First of, in an AMF none of your supernatural abilities (divine grace, arcane resistance) would work. Neither would any of your magic items. So you'd be severely nerfed. A Wizard could summon a 9th level creature with spell resistance and you'd need to make a caster level check, if you failed the creature would be able to move through it and eat you up very quickly.
Secondly, he could cast Invoke Magic, which as a swift action negates an AMF and then cast Mordankeinen's Disjunction to render all your precious magic items useless. And then proceed to kill you in literally hundreds of different ways.
Third, in a cruel twist he could turn AMF on you. He could use all his starting money to create a 20HD+ Red Dragon Effigy, ride it into combat and cast AMF on himself. You'd be a squishy with no powers and the Red Dragon Effigy would proceed to eat you (even though a contruct doesn't need to eat).
Fourth and final, he can scribe all the scrolls you could cast from (and at a higher CL), and can cast from wands like you can, he just was access to higher level spells. So he wins everything being equal.
These are just off the top of my head, if I really thought about it could come up with many different secenarios. Most of these people are right, this build isn't that great and you're not taking into account all the 9th level spells a Wizard has at his disposal or the items he could buy as well. Sorry, you'd still lose
One means of controlling the glorified fighter: Time Stop and Forcecage him, then shapechange into a Beholder and bathe both him and the forcecage in the antimagic cone.
One means of damaging him: the Simulacrum teleports to the nearest equipment shop and buys a whole bunch of acid, returning to dump it onto the Forcecage. Sure, no one is going to hit this glorified (after all, who could be more Charismatic?) fighter, but I don't see any immunity to acid splash damage. No save!
How much preparation does the wizard need? Whatever his means is of going first, Moment of Prescience and Foresight if Celerity isn't allowed; a Time Stop at the ready; a few scrolls for the Shapechange and the Forcecage, enough cash for the acid, and a ready-made Simulacrum.
That stuff doesn't seem too hard to come by. Actually I did something like this in a tournament against a dude who thought extreme AC/saves and all those ignore-partial-effects abilities would be enough... he made it to the final match. Unfortunately for him, I was playing the wizard: and the Forcecage + Beholder Antimagic Cone proved to be too much for him.
Once the challenger is locked up like that, all that remains is seeking out a non-magical no-save method of inflicting damage, however slowly, and there's the win. No need for these fancy Gates and Dragons and such. That's just showing off!
Ghostaxe I think you're overlooking several important things here.
First of, in an AMF none of your supernatural abilities (divine grace, arcane resistance) would work. Niether would any of your magic items. So you'd be severely nerfed. A Wizard couls summon a 9th level creature with spell resistance and you'd need to make a caster level check, if you failed the creature would be able to move through it and eat you up very quickly.
Secondly, he could cast Invoke Magic, which as a swift action negates an AMF and then cast Mordankeinen's Disjunction to render all your precious magic items useless. And then procedd to kill you in literally hundreds of different ways.
Third, in a cruel twist he could turn AMF on you. He could use all his starting money to create a 20HD + Red Dragon Effigy, ride it into combat and cast AMF on himself. You'd be a squishy with no powers and the Red Dragon Effigy would proceed to eat you (even though a contruct they don't need to eat).
Most of these poeple are right, this build isn't that great and you're not taking into account all the 9th level spells a Wizard has at his disposal or the items he could buy as well. Sorry, you'd still lose
Hi, yeah, I realize all of that, and mentioned that in previous posts.
The AMF was there only to try to deal with Gate. If we stipulate that Gate is broken and disallow it (or limit it to 30HD), then I don't need to use AMF at all.
Also, AMF would never work to my disadvantage. My touch AC in an AMF is still 42, thanks to many of my abilities being extraordinary. As long as either (1) we're both in AMF, or (2) we're both out of AMF, I'm safe. The only trouble is when I'm in AMF but he's not, which I don't think is possible, because Antimagic Ray requires a touch attack and a will save.
What do you think your chances are of either a) avoiding this fate, b) escaping, or c) surviving such utter helplessness while the wizard has plenty of time to contemplate what he wants to do with you?
One means of controlling the glorified fighter: Time Stop and Forcecage him, then shapechange into a Beholder and bathe both him and the forcecage in the antimagic cone.
Hm, this *is* a pretty good trick that I hadn't thought of. I'll need to think some more about this.
One means of damaging him: the Simulacrum teleports to the nearest equipment shop and buys a whole bunch of acid, returning to dump it onto the Forcecage. Sure, no one is going to hit this glorified (after all, who could be more Charismatic?) fighter, but I don't see any immunity to acid splash damage. No save!
Haha, this is great!
You need to hit me for the 1d6, which isn't going to happen considering my touch AC. The 1 splash damage that you refers to wouldn't apply, because we're 1000 feet in the air, so the acid drops harmless down to the ground. Same thing goes for Alchemist's Fire.
And even if we apply a rule that you can target the bars of the Forcecage, I can do this:
Ready action to move 10 feet upon you throwing the acid. (You can only throw 1 acid per round, no?)
Finally, if nothing works out and I'm brought down by mundane acid and fire, I'll find a template that gives me Fire Resistance 5 and Acid Resistance 5
With little buffing, the wizard can hit your touch ac and that means death to you without having to come up with any more innovative methods of slaying.
The only ones I can think of are True Strike and Moment of Prescience, which don't stack because both are Insight bonuses.
Assuming a +10 BAB, a 20 DEX (+5), and a Moment of Prescience (+25), that's only +40, which isn't nearly enough to hit me without the AMF on (you're at least 9 short).
But you probably ARE going to wind up in an antimagic field with the wizard safely outside- he can Shapechange into a Beholder after Forcecaging you. It's not the Field you need to fear, it's the Cone.
What do you think your chances are of either a) avoiding this fate, b) escaping, or c) surviving such utter helplessness while the wizard has plenty of time to contemplate what he wants to do with you?
I'm still thinking!!
But seriously, this is a good plan, in that I can't figure out an out in 5 minutes. I'm still pretty confident of 3, and have given up on 1, so I'll think about 2. (I'm heading out for the day, be back in 12 or so hours).
I shapechange into a gloom, moment of prescience, divine power, bite of the wererat already gives +66 to ranged touch attacks. And that's not even using all the possible +to hit spells.
I really, really need to go, but one last response:
Gloom is in Epic Level Handbook, I thought that was generally out of bounds..
Divine Power (presumably from a Wish?) gives you +20 BAB, Moment of Prescience gives you +25 insight (How are you getting CL 25?). Bite of the Wererat gives an Enhancement bonus, which I already assumed you had a +6 DEX item.
Those give you a total of +48. Assuming I'm not in an AMF, that's still not going to hit, although it's getting close. What other +to hit spells are there?
I was unaware that this was an aerial battle. Please forgive me.
In any case, the wizard might indeed observe that the fire, acid, or other effect he's been using isn't having much of an effect, so he can order his simulacrum to try a different tactic, can't he? I mean, he's got 40 hours on the Forcecage and 200 minutes on the Shapechange at 20th level, without doing anything fancy.
Let's say it's wintertime, and he wants to get funky with Control Weather. Once the temperature in that forcecage drops below -20 degrees, you'll be taking no-save damage from the temperature.
Other Options: Surrounding the forcecage on all sides except one with a solid material, and pouring in large amounts of water or some other unhealthy liquid. You could potentially be exposed to some pretty bad stuff.... bathed in Green Slime? Holy Water, instead, if you're undead.
A 20th level wizard with money, a 10th level Simulacrum, knowledge, and basically all the time in the world will be able to do this. And while you're readying actions to dodge acid flasks, he might decide to take advantage of the lull and recast Shapechange.... from a scroll his Simulacrum just picked up for him.
This is without leaving Core. I don't see what chance ANY character has once it's locked in a forcecage and bathed in an antimagic cone, so don't feel bad. Your build is awesome: magic really is just so good.
Gate spells to call a monster requires Concentration to maintain
No, it doesn't. Reread the spell. It says nothing like that anywhere. I don't know where you're getting some of this stuff.
As to what to do when the fighter is stuck in the Forcecage, with the familiar's beholder Antimagic cone aimed at him: Open a Gate inside a lake of lava on the Elemental Plane of Fire, with the other side pointing down 20 feet above the forcecage (outside of the AMF cone). The guy stuck in the forcecage will be bathed in tons of lava every round, with no way to escape it. The lava itself is non-magical. The gate is outside the antimagic cone.
You could also use some other method of transporting this much lava, if you don't like using even the travel version of Gate, like casting Shrink Item on a bunch of it. You use the version that gives it cloth-like consistency. The instant it hits the AMF, it unshrinks. Center a Reverse Gravity spell so that instead of just falling through the cage to the ground, if falls up and hovers at the top of the spell, which happens to be even with the top of the Forcecage. With enough lava, the entire Forecage will be filled with a floating pool of it, and you can shrink a lot of lava with a 20th level Shrink Item, and each casting lasts 1 day per level, even without Extending it.
And the wizard could have planned all this a week in advance by using Contact Other Plane, and knowing exactly how to kill you, even if he'd never heard of you before.
Here are a couple of threads where some of the best optimizers around are debating whether it is even possible for a non-caster to defeat a high level optimized wizard, using all the cheese available and their combined optimization skill.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3576.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3763.0
So far, I think the general consensus is: No, not if the wizard really pulls all the stops and uses every resource available. If the wizard is not quite so paranoid, and is a bit sloppy, then yeah it is probably possible for a very specialized anti-mage character to beat him, under some circumstances.
Gate spells to call a monster requires Concentration to maintain if you don't want to spend 1 minute bargaining, so you can't call more than 1 (at most 1 ancient Wyrm).
As pointed out, this is wrong. Note that the travel version of gate has a duration of Concentration. The calling version has a duration of 1 round/level (or more, depending on what you order the creature to do). Calling in Half-Celestial Great Wyrm Gold Dragons is totally legit, and there is nothing you can do against them inside an AMF or out.
You know what auto-hits anything, regardless of AC? Limited wish emulating surge of fortune. Congratulations, you are now under a dimensional lock, not that it matters because you have no defense against shapechange (Beholder) + forcecage. At that point, there is literally any number of ways to kill you. Shrink item + giant boulders will do enough damage eventually. Or PhaedrusXY's gate to the Elemental Plane of Lava to bathe you in infinite amounts of molten rock. Or we could just fill the forcecage with Black Lotus Poison (made via major creation). And all of these are Core (except for surge of fortune, which is irrelevant to the fight).
If the Wizard goes outside of core, things get worse for you. The wizard now has celerity, access to dire tortoise form, and no-save, no-SR orbs.
I like using lava, because the stuff made with Major Creation dissappears in an AMF. :D The only problem with this strategy is it won't work against things that are too big to fit inside the Forcecage, or things that are immune to fire.
I apologize in advance if there is some infinite CL trick with this I missed.
Edit: Though if Gate control stacks this is sort of moot.
He cast multiple Gates. With a CL of 21 (wiz20 + Orange Ioun Stone), you can control one GWyrm Gold per Gate.
Like I editted, I wasn't sure if Gate control stacked. Thanks for clarifying. ^_^
Weee, experiments!
Another huge issue with your build:
Even if you win, killing the wizard doesn't hurt him much. He'll be true resurrection'd and come back with a vengeance. You really need a better exit strategy, like polymorph any objecting him into something with no spellcasting after disjunctioning him.
I can picture some of my evil aligned wizards having a lot of fun determining how to harm you once they have you trapped inside their AMF Forcecage.
Weee, experiments!
Another huge issue with your build:
Even if you win, killing the wizard doesn't hurt him much. He'll be true resurrection'd and come back with a vengeance. You really need a better exit strategy, like polymorph any objecting him into something with no spellcasting after disjunctioning him.
Or, y'know, he'll just have his Nightmare simulacrum recast astral projection and pop back in one round later after restoring all his spell slots. Killing high-level Wizards takes more than just fighting them somewhere. You have to find the Wizard's actual body before you can make any real impact.
The build posted by the OPer is not even close to a REAL gish. Start with Persist, Extraordinary Spell Aim or Initiate of Mystra + AMF, then abuse the **** out of WBL to get lots of awesome items. Since you are a turtle, and not of the joke kind of turtle like the OPer and you have Celerity, Foresight, blah blah blah it comes down to a coin toss. Otherwise forget it.
Talking about the spells they use is pointless, since that's common domain. Junk like that is just all about which player knows more about d&d, and actually given the INT scores of some combatants may be veto'd as metagaming.
It's the feats and class features that seal the deal.
While some Gish features are nifty (RKV, for instance), the thrust of the gish is usually higher melee dps (Mainly BAB for arcane casters). Since they will probably never get a chance to be in melee with the caster, it's rather useless.
The caster on the other hand, will have lots of nasty things (IE incantatrix) which will actually be a factor in the fight, and they will usually (Not necessarily) win the fight for them.
To me the question of if winning is possible is not interesting, you have to be able to win more often than the wizard. Even a CR 0 pointy rock has a chance of autokilling the mighty wizard when he trips and lands on it.
Even a CR 0 pointy rock has a chance of autokilling the mighty wizard when he trips and lands on it.
No, it doesn't... unless you use the retarded 3 20s is an autokill houserule, or something similiar.
No, it doesn't... unless you use the retarded 3 20s is an autokill houserule, or something similiar.
This entire thread has been about a bunch of BS houserules... like natural 20s not being auto hits for example.
A real gish has a chance, because they have an AMF that does not affect themselves, so they still have relevant saves, full spell granted mobility, etc along with the same defenses, and while Orbs normally own AMFers, this is because the AMF is nerfing the user... which it isn't, in the case of the real gish, who could just Ray Deflect or high touch AC + saves it.
It's a matter of initiative. Whoever goes first is going to win. They both can use Shapechange and Celerity and such. The idea, for the gish is to get some super good fly speed like fly 190 (perfect) which isn't that hard to do, then Pounce on round 1, hoping that the AMF stops them while not stopping you. If you fail for any reason you're screwed.
No, because you can topple the column of ice over, so it's not permanent. Besides, even if it is permanent, I don't think that would allow stacking...
Consider that you're not allowed to cast a Column of Ice rising from the roof of a building, rather than the ground floor, and the roof of a well-built building is pretty permanent. RAW, you definitely cannot stack.
Well, there is always one thing... The Wizard could cast Shapechange, become a Zodar and every round use a Wish to duplicate some nice spell and just wait for you to roll a natural one and lose. Meanwhile there is nothing you can do and the Wizard is immune to all damage but bludgeoning damage (and you can't hit him anyway) and gets a supernatural Wish once every round. That Dominate monster gets you some day.
Well, there is always one thing... The Wizard could cast Shapechange, become a Zodar and every round use a Wish to duplicate some nice spell and just wait for you to roll a natural one and lose. Meanwhile there is nothing you can do and the Wizard is immune to all damage but bludgeoning damage (and you can't hit him anyway) and gets a supernatural Wish once every round. That Dominate monster gets you some day.
Ssssh, now he has to ban "Shapechange" in addition to "Gate".
Soon the Wizard won't be allowed to cast any spells at all :'(
Ssssh, now he has to ban "Shapechange" in addition to "Gate".
Soon the Wizard won't be allowed to cast any spells at all :'(
I am waiting for it. Eventually this'll be a class featureless Duskblade against a so called gish.
I am waiting for it. Eventually this'll be a class featureless Duskblade against a so called gish.
That's usually how these things go, if they do not instead turn into a 'no tactics, auto attack only, FINAL DESTINATION'.
I think if we tighten the parameters a bit, something might come up useful.
Wizard 20 (strictly) vs. Wiz biased +16 bab and 9s as much as possible.
The Wiz would be up at least 2 feats and at least 2 spells.
I doubt the +16 bab has any effect at all on initiative.
Maybe the initiative win ratio for the Wiz is at least 70% (??).
Cleric 20 vs. Cleric Gish 20 is just one spell difference (Divine Power pre-buffed).
What does initiative have to do this this battle?
Maybe the win ratio is based explicitly on who goes first ; 51/49 split (??).
Foch Lyrist might have a trick or two up it's sleeves.
But it would all be pre-buffing based.
How much Initiative based spells can one of these get going?
Psion 20 vs. Ardent 4 / +1 BAB 2 / Slayer 10 / CPsi Stormgish 4
The Ardent ends up BAB 19 / 2 8th level powers and 4 9th level powers, but down about 6 or 7 feats.
There's no chance the Ardent could go 1st ...
but it does stand a chance on a Plane that works with the Stormy class 3 ability.
Erudite Spell to Power vs. Erudite with the Discipline based class option.
With some work, and Dragon #349 feat, the 2nd build could get Divine Power
and maybe a tricky Psi/Magic interaction from inadequate transparency editing.
My money is on the Spell to Power one.
What else
You cannot extend Time Stop, either.
The logic of FAQ banning persistent spell should apply to extend spell, too.
Extend Spell does not make Time Stop non-instantaneous spell suddenly.
And the description of Time Stop says the duration of Time Stop is 'apparent' time.
5 or 6 rounds.
5 + (1d4+1) x 1.5 = min. 8 rounds, max. of 12.
Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw.
Wizard 5/Cleric of Mystra 1/Fatespinner 4/Incantatrix 10
Feats of Note:
1--Initiate of Mystra
3--Empower Spell
6--Maximize Spell
12--Arcane Thesis: Disintegrate
Equipment of Note
Boots of Temporal Acceleration
Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken
Tome of Clear Thought
Headband of Intellect +6
Scores of Note
Int 29 (18 base + 6 headband + 5 tome)
Strategy
Win initiative, in whatever way you choose.
- Round 1
- Swift--Activate Boots of Temporal Acceleration
- Temporal Acceleration, Round 1
- Standard--Cast antimagic field
- Move--Move next to gish, catching him in AMF
- Standard--Cast antimagic field
- Temporal Acceleration, Round 2
- Swift--Cast quickened limited wish on self using the Rod: Auto-hit with next attack roll
- Standard--Ready an action to cast when temporal acceleration ends
- Swift--Cast quickened limited wish on self using the Rod: Auto-hit with next attack roll
- Temporal Acceleration, Round 1
- Readied--Cast limited wish on gish for -7 to next save.
- Standard--Cast maximized empowered disintegrate
- Swift--Activate Boots of Temporal Acceleration
The disintegrate ray automatically hits, and the gish must make a DC 25 (10 + 9 Int + 6 spell level) Fort save or take 240+20d6 damage. Given that (A) his Fort modifier in an AMF is +11, (B) he has a -7 penalty to the save, and (C) the wizard can use Fickle Finger of Fate to make him reroll a natural 20, the chances of him making it the first time are nonexistant. Even if the gish rolls a 20, on the second roll the gish takes a -10 penalty to his save thanks to Seal Fate, and again can only make it on a natural 20.
That's a .25% chance to avoid taking 240+20d6 damage, and given that (A) the gish's Con modifier is only +1, (B) max HP with a +1 Con even with d12 HD gives only 260 HP, exactly the minimum damage of the disintegrate, and (C) there are no d12 HD classes in the build, the gish will die 99.75% of the time. On that other .25% of the time, he'll take no damage; the battle proceeds as normal, with the wizard's net expenditure being 3 7th level slots, 2 class features, and 2 item uses.
So, there's a 99.75% chance that a wizard, using 3 7th level slots and with a fairly standard blaster build, can wipe the gish in 1 round. Are you willing to chance your life on rolling 2 natural 20s in a row, Mr. Gish?
1--Initiate of Mystra
Doesn't IoM require 3 levels of Cleric ?
Doesn't IoM require 3 levels of Cleric ?
I do believe it does.
Doesn't IoM require 3 levels of Cleric ?
Indeed it does; I thought Initiate feats were of the 1st-level-only type like Precocious Apprentice et al., but on further reading it appears the build should be Wizard 5/Cleric of Mystra 3/Fatespinner 4/Incantatrix 8, which works just fine since the ability we want is at Incantatrix 8. Thanks for the catch.
The save is way too low. Add in +5 from levels, +2 from race and make the standard Snowcasting trick for another +10 to the save DC and you already have +14 to your 25. Oh yeah, Heighten spell for another +3. That's DC 42. Fatespinner can adjust the DC too, right?
I know it's way too low--that's my point! He's relying so much on his "massive" saves that when he's antimagic'd, the basic DC is high enough to wipe him. The fatespinner's spin, Snowcasting, etc. would be used if and when the gish survives; the ones I listed were only the ones necessary for this trick.
You do realize no one is contesting that win init = win here, right?
As a matter of fact, the OP has been contesting that. It's been "If the wizard does X, the gish does Y, the gish is fine!" and so forth, even when the wizard wins initiative. And honestly, typing "win initiative" was much faster than "stick around and look bored until you decide to act," since you can pull this off at any point in the combat. ;)
Well, the gish does have the same defeses if made right. The OPer is... not a competent gish maker.
Were that the case, we wouldn't be having the conversation. For once, we agree on something. ;)
Base Fort: 3 (paladin) + 1 (hexblade) + 0 (rogue) + 0 (sorc) + 0 (arcane duelist) + 0 (wilder) + 6 (warmind) = 10
Base Ref: 0 (paladin) + 1 (hexblade) + 3 (rogue) + 0 (sorc) + 3 (arcane duelist) + 0 (wilder) + 6 (warmind) = 13
Base Will: 0 (paladin) + 3 (hexblade) 0 (rogue) + 3 (sorc) + 3 (arcane duelist) + 3 (wilder) + 2 (warmind) = 14
Fort: 10 (base) + 4 (CON) + 13 (divine grace) + 5 (resistance) + 1 (luck) = +33 (+46 vs. spells)
Ref: 13 (base) + 3 (DEX) + 13 (divine grace) + 5 (resistance) + 1 (luck) = +35 (+48 vs. spells)
Will: 14 (base) + 6 (WIS) + 13 (divine grace) + 5 (resistance) + 1 (luck) = +39 (+52 vs. spells)
in an Antimagic Field these will be only:
Fort: 10 (base) + 1 (CON) = +11
Ref: 13 (base) + 2 (DEX) = +16
Will: 14 (base) + 3 (WIS) = +17
since the Antimagic Field surpresses ALL of his ITEMS and SU and Spell-like abilities
thus the easy way to deal with this threat is as PhaedrusXY pointed out..... Forcecage... then use Minor Creation(Black Lotus poison) in a Barrel... and Pour on cage with trapped Gish, repeat as needed... he will fail a save and die
:D
:D
I looked at his saves and AC listed for the AMF briefly, and thought it looked right. I was suprized that some of that stuff is Ex, but I'd never checked before. I was actually impressed with that part of the build. It's not a bad build, and would probably work well in a party as a caster-harrasser.
Only if you define the term as annoying the caster by giving them free XP and loot.
Carnivore--you are aware that there's a separate listing for stats in an AMF at the bottom, right?
opps... you are correct.... sorry, did not read the first post completely... was in a rather large hurry
that being said.... what is to prevent a caster from making a Ranged attack with something that is No Save/ No SR... Instantaeous(Conjuration (Creation)) spell..... im thinking True Strike with Extended Twin Acid Arrow vs Gish in a Forcecage..... if cast outside of an Antimagic Field... the field wont affect the spell
:D
that being said.... what is to prevent a caster from making a Ranged attack with something that is No Save/ No SR
Nothing at all. That's what my build does, with limited wish ensuring an auto-hit. The only reason it goes out of its way to put the gish in an AMF is to keep the save DC down, because I wanted to keep the build as general as possible. Pick something with no save and you'd be good. I have a player currently who's a pyromaniac with a level of Sanctified One of Kord to ignore energy resistance/immunity; he could one-shot the gish with his orb of fire, but that's too specialized of a build to put up here, I think.
You do realize no one is contesting that win init = win here, right?
I'll contest it.
Wizard 20
Greater Celerity.
Ready action dispel, or ready action time stop.
Wizard level 13, ECL 13, no prestige classes.
16 point buy
Used less than 15% of gold for a level 13 character.
Things not important to the build, like feats that didn't need to be used, etc. Are left out.
Race: Fire Elf
Class: Wizard 13
Scores: Str 8, Dex 10, Con 6, Int 20, Wis 8, Cha 6
Spells Known: Read Magic, Teleport, Forcecage, Simulacrum.
Evocation Specialist (Not necessary if we assume the simulacrum was created before today)
Items:
Heavy Crossbow
Crossbow Bolts x 2000
Heward's Handy Haversack x 2
Scroll of Time Stop (CL 17)
Scroll of Shapechange (CL 20)
Ruby Dust for Forcecage
Simulacrum has 6HD, and is based off some type of devil with Fighter class levels.
1 level feat - Brand of the Nine Hells (Prereq for Mark of Cania )
Fighter feat - Quick Draw (To get the crossbow bolts out of the haversack)
3 level feat - Rapid Reload (To reload our crossbow, of course)
6 level feat - Mark of Cania (From FCII: Every time you miss with an attack or have an opponent save against a spell, you gain a cumulative +1 bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and checks. This bonus disappears when you successfully hit with an attack or an opponent fails to save against a spell you cast.)
Battle Plan:
Go into battle as a dire tortoise (from the shapechange scroll). You go first.
(Tortoise Round) Cast time stop off your scroll. Doesn't matter what you get off the roll, only two rounds are needed.
(Time Stop round one) Close the gap between the gish, using your teleport if necessary.
(Time Stop round two) Forcecage the gish. Free action shapechange into a beholder, and project that antimagic cone.
(Gish's turn) I have no idea, not much he can do right now. I guess he sulks in his cage or something.
(Your turn again) Have your simulacrum move into place. Have him fire his crossbow into the force cage.
(Gish's turn) Same thing.
(Your turn again, and from now on) Have your simulacrum quick draw a bolt out of the haversack, rapid reload his crossbow, and fire.
The simulacrum attacks for up to 1997 rounds, considering we've got a 200 minute shapechange and we've already used three rounds.
If we're assuming natural 20's autohit, then the simulacrum has a 1 in 20 chance to hit, meaning he'll hit about every twenty times he fires, which means that, on average, he'll have a +19 bonus to damage from the Mark of Cania whenever he does hit. Since a heavy crossbow does 1d10 damage, average 5, we'll just assume that his DR 5/Cold Iron evens out the damage that the actual bolt does on any given shot. So, every 20 rounds, we do 19 damage. Therefore, over 1997 rounds, we do, on average, 1881 damage. That's one dead gish.
If we're assuming natural 20's don't autohit, we'll say that, on average, we've got a base +16 to hit (not counting our bonuses from Mark of Cania). +6 from Fighter BAB and +10 from the average d20 roll. That means that, since his AC is 69, we'll finally hit him after 54 rounds, when we have a +59 to hit from Mark and roll a 10 on our d20. We do 1d10 + 53 damage, for an average of 58 damage, 5 of which goes away because of his DR. So, every 54 rounds, we do 53 damage. Over the course of our 1997 rounds, we do 1908 damage. This also produces one dead gish, extra holey.
So the gish is dead, and we've still got 93,000 gold to spend and 7 levels to gain! Our wizard buys some magic items goes to adventure peacefully forever more, and settles down later in life to become the mayor of some small town.
Only if you define the term as annoying the caster by giving them free XP and loot.
This thread is made of lolzand yes going first (after the insta-rage, celerity, dire-tortiose cheese stuff; not just initiative) = winning. If you don't kill your ECL20 opponent when you are ECL20, you are not optimized. :P