I was reading over Spellwarp Sniper, and double checked its caster progression, +1 existing spellcasting class. Sweet, arcane or divine, my choice. Maybe I should go with a favoured soul/sorcerer sniper, or something along those lines, right? Maybe combining this with something like Mystic Theurge would be beneficia--wait. +1 existing spellcasting class???
*rereads the spellcasting*
Spellcasting: At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not however gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a spellwarp sniper, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known
Mystic Theurge enhances the spellcasting of a seperate class. It does not have it's own spellcasting, and so you cannot apply a +1 spellcaster level to the Mystic Theurge (or rather, if you did then it would have no effect as it does not progress class features, just base spellcasting).
Mystic Theurge doesn't have 'casting' itself, it progresses other classes, thus this is not addable.
Adding this to Ur-Priest is the best it can get, and it's because Ur-Priest is broken, not this.
Edit: Gah, where's my anti-ninja spray?
*note - haven't check other dual-progression PrC but I assume they are written as per mystic theurge
Edit - NINJAS EVERYWHERE! GAH!
Spells per Day: When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
Arg major ninja'age
no.
But let's follow your logic. I could take 1 rank in cerebremancer to get advancing manifesting and arcane. Then a rank in Theurge to advance that and divine- but rather then straight divine, I can advance the divine cerebremancer, for doubly advanced psionics, advanced arcan and advanced divine. BUT WAIT, I can take ranks in Fochlucal Lyrist and advance that single advancement from Theurge and ANTOHER divine class. BUT WAIT, I can find another double class and chain them until I have 20th level manifesting 100 times, 20th level divine casting 5938u38589399390 times and so on and so forth.
NO. IT DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT.
Or will you now argue that if I hold a wand of enlarge person, I technically have ranks in cleric and should be allowed access to Mystic Theurge?
By raw, a spellcasting class is a class that can cast its own spells. A class that has no spellcasting of its own isn't a spellcasting class.
Point me to this source and I'll be on my way sir
oh, and @ Dr_Rocktopus, lolz
No? Show me where is says that I can't, by RAW. Otherwise it stands.
Divine ranks...... generally come from worshipers, right?
Dance is almost as easy to optimize for as jump or diplomacy....
Remind me to roll Cotton-Eyed Joe sometime, please. I bet we really can get divine ranks using dance! I'll try to work in the chicken dance, but no promises re: free action. <3
Oh, and Kerrus, you don't have ranks in a class, you have levels. Ranks is a keyword in D&D, reserved for skills :D
This is "it says I can, prove me wrong"
@ sofawall hmm, it doesn't have a chart, no. The one thing though, is it says it advances the spells/day, spells known, and CL of the class "as if you had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged", and if you had instead gained a level of mythic theurge, you'd gain spells per day as if you'd advanced in an arcane & a divine casting class, however I don't think the CL would stack because that is satisfied by choosing mythic theurge?
EDIT: Mystic Theurge has a "Spells per Day" column on their chart, correct?
EDIT: Mystic Theurge has a "Spells per Day" column on their chart, correct?
No, it does not. Which is still not the point. Spellwarp Sniper does advance casting of a spellcasting class so really the most cheese in that respect has been mentioned with either Ur-Priest or Sublime chord on sure basis of advancing those two class's spellcasting.
Also, do you realize how many other prestige classes have the exact same wording for spell casting advancement? Complete Mage has 2. There are more in other books but I'm not going to be bothered enough to look through just to add to this already nonsensical debate.
Now, what are the definition of a 'spellcasting class'? I personally can't find one.
But if we take the definition of 'spellcaster' from PHB, it says 'a character capable of casting spells', and makes that a class: spellcasting class: 'a class capable of casting spells'. I think most people will agree thats almost the same. now this is is interesting. mystic theurge arent capable of casting spells. Sorcerer are, clerics are, a sorcerer/cleric/mystic theurge are, but a mystic theurge by itself arent. A mystic theurge advances spellcasting, it doestn't cast spells itself.
No it does not.
Unfortunately for my hypothesis, that is a lie.
All it says, however, is "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class"
Ok, in the description of spellwarp sniper, it says: 'as if you had also gained a level in a spellasting class to which you belonged'.
Now, what are the definition of a 'spellcasting class'? I personally can't find one.
But if we take the definition of 'spellcaster' from PHB, it says 'a character capable of casting spells', and makes that a class: spellcasting class: 'a class capable of casting spells'. I think most people will agree thats almost the same. now this is is interesting. mystic theurge arent capable of casting spells. Sorcerer are, clerics are, a sorcerer/cleric/mystic theurge are, but a mystic theurge by itself arent. A mystic theurge advances spellcasting, it doestn't cast spells itself.
Actually, you make a good point, as when you qualify with just wizard (domain wizard or some such thing) there's no divine class to improve. Therefore, Mystic theurge without a Divine spellcasting class cannot cast spells, therefore is not a divine spellcaster. If we could pull the same shenanigans with divine casters casting arcane spells, then you would gain no arcane spells, therefore proving the Mystic Theurge cannot cast arcane spells without an arcane caster, therefore it is not an arcane caster. If it is neither an arcane caster, nor a divine caster, it must not be a spellcaster.
Mystic Theurge
Blurring the line between divine and arcane, mystic theurges draw power from divine sources and musty tomes alike. While most spellcasters choose one path to magical power, mystic theurges walk two roads at once, simultaneously mastering spells common to clerics and wizards.
Mystic theurges have unparalleled diversity of spells. In time, a mystic theurge can cast almost any spell in the Player's Handbook. While a mystic theurge doesn't have the uninterrupted spell advancement that a cleric, wizard, or sorcerer has, he makes up for this with versatility. Mystic theurges are often obsessed with magical lore, traveling to the ends of the earth to learn some new arcane secret or divine insight.
Because a mystic theurge casts both arcane and divine spells, all members of this class are multiclass spellcasters. Cleric/sorcerers and cleric/wizards are the most common mystic theurges, with druid/sorcerers more rare and druid/wizards almost unheard of.
Mystic theurges tend to be fascinated with magic in whatever form it takes. They're always on the hunt for powerful magic items and new arcane spells. Those mystic theurges who worship a deity use the power of their spellcasting to further their deity's agenda.
link-> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rs/20030402a
I put in the bolds
@ Gorfnad, you're wrong, it does, read 'em and weep. http://s667.photobucket.com/albums/vv37/arogenith/?action=view¤t=MysticTheurge.jpg
That picture was taken from the site listed above, just wanted to make it easier for everyone to see that "Spells Per Day" column. Also, I know there are a lot with this, I was just describing how I noticed it. Thats the beauty, more customization for your destructobot casters
EDIT: take that nay sayers :P (you know I'm just messin)
To elaborate, the features tends to begin something like "Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells."
This makes it pretty clear that it's a class that casts spells. Mystic Theurge has;
"Spells per day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class..."
you know how it goes.
So the theurge grants more spells per day, but does not cast spells as one of it's class features. Therefore, it is not a "spellcasting" class.
mystic theurge prereq is that it must be able to cast 2nd level spells that are divine, and 2nd level spells that are arcane, so it MUST be able to cast spells, and therefore must be a spell, caster.
So any PrC that requires spellcasting is a spellcasting class? That's just silly. so now you're saying that an aracne archer is a spellcasting class because all arcane archers can cast spells? Mystic Theurge can't cast spells by itself. Yeah, all MTs can cast spells. but not by itself. it can by the virtue of its OTHER spellcasting levels, the MT merely adds to this.
I believe this thread deals with, and refutes, the same sort of shenanigans that you're talking about. But, as many others have pointed out, Mystic Theurge doesn't have its own spellcasting progression - there are no spells anywhere, in any WotC splatbook, that are listed as 'Mystic Theurge X' spells - it merely progresses both an arcane and divine casting class's progression. Find one one spell that lists as Mystic Theurge X, point to it, and I'll rescind and give you a
. Until then, nice try, been tried before, but it still ain't legal.this kind of crap has come along far too often in the past already
Someone should put together a list of these sort of things. You know, persisted time stop being the unbeatable combo, etc. Add a link in to the library for 'Things that are too good to be true! (and in fact are false after all).'
Optimization Myths
It's old as hell, and some of it's changed, but that's where I always start when this kind of thing comes up. It could probably use an update, or 10.
I've seen with my own eyes 4 separate threads that made the current OP's claim, it's not true, even in TO. I thought there was a FAQ entry or a Sage Advice specifically about it at some point, that basically said what everyone here has said like 9 times and been ignored (a class/prc has to have it's own spells/day chart to be advance-able by +1 CL classes) but I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment.
Optimization Myths
It's old as hell, and some of it's changed, but that's where I always start when this kind of thing comes up. It could probably use an update, or 10.
I've seen with my own eyes 4 separate threads that made the current OP's claim, it's not true, even in TO. I thought there was a FAQ entry or a Sage Advice specifically about it at some point, that basically said what everyone here has said like 9 times and been ignored (a class/prc has to have it's own spells/day chart to be advance-able by +1 CL classes) but I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment.
The only thing that could possibly state that is a sage, cuz I've checked elsewhere and seen nothing. Also MT has its own "spells/day" chart literally on its class progression chart, and in its class skills it says "Spells per Day" and describes exactly how its spellcasting increases as it levels. I use the word spellcasting for a reason, because as all of you seem to have diliberately disregarded, it clearly and distinctly states that MTs are spellcasters in its description. Just like a wizard is said to be a spellcaster in its description, so is the MT.
@ innabinder, I read the OP and first few posts, its talking about early entry, not utilizing its caster level bonus.
@ Hijax, yes, if the description says that it is a spellcaster, its a spellcaster, I see no reason to completely look at a line of text in a WoTC published book and go ".....but they don't really mean that."
@ Weezel I see what you're trying to say, but a level 4 sorcerer, level 4 favoured Soul has lvl 2 arcane and lvl 2 divine spells available. So how the hell does it make sense, according to you, that a lvl 4 sorc, lvl 4 favoured soul, lvl 2 MT can cast level 3 spells of both arcane and divine? I mean, MTs have nothing to do with spellcasting, right? After another 2 levels, it should be able to cast 4th level arcane's and divine's, but thats only RAW, I guess we should get an eratta going that states no PrCs can't actually cast spells or have anything to do with them.
@ everyone, if people have tried this before, I appoloize, however I think I'm making a better point then them as everything I've stated here works RAW, though I know you all want to believe it as little as possible, and so do I
for example, in the wizard description, it says: "a few unintelligible words and fleeting gestures carry more power than a battleaxe, when they are the words and gestures of a wizard". Would that mean that everytime a wizard make a few gestures and say some unintelligible stuff, it deal more than 1d8 damage, since 1d8 is "the power of a batlle axe"? Oh, and since it doesn't say any limitations, i can use it any number of times per day? Or the eldritch knight "who can cast a fireball on her foes or charge them with sword drawn", so all eldritch knights can cast fireball?
(also, the mystic theurge's descriptions says NOTHING about them being spellcasters. NOTHING.
Don't say "they need their own list" because ultimate magus, red mage, etc are all prestiges, and don't have their own list, and if its claimed that a mage isn't a spellcaster, I think we should all leave these board, go home, and sit down for a few to recollect on where we're going. If the description of something says "this is a spellcaster" WHY are people saying "nope, WoTC is a liar, its not a spellcasting class, they can't cast spells, they have nothing to do with the arcane or the divine".
I wanted to share something with you guys that I hadn't thought was commented on before, here it is. It 'does' work RAW, please stop nitpicking at my exact words to try and find a way around it. If there was a Sage ruling that says it doesn't work, a link works for me, but thats it, well unless someone has something to say that actually makes sense. Someone who can cast spells, is a spell 'caster'. They cast them, that person, that class. MT is just an expansion on the spellcasting capabilities of the two prereq classes, and combines that into a form of spellcasting of its own. So stop debating the fact that MT doesn't "cast spells" cuz it does, its spell list is just 'possibly' any other caster class'
EDIT: @ hijax's edit- yes, it does. "While most spellcasters choose one path to magical power, mystic theurges walk two roads at once, simultaneously mastering spells common to clerics and wizards." This puts MTs into the category of spellcasters directly.
Point 2. Spellcaster: a character capable of casting spells.
-PHB 3.5.
now, are a mystic theurge capable of casting spells, ON ITS OWN? no its not. it doesn't have a spellcasting class feature, it have a class feature to ADVANCE spellcasting. not do it, ADVANCE. You keep bringing up the EXCACT same point: all mystic theurges can cast spells, the mystic theurge class advancees that, therefore mystic theurges are spellcasters. the tricky part to this debate is, all those spellcasting advancing classes say "spellcasting class", not "spellcaster". there is no WoTC definition of this "spellcasting class, so i take it for granted they're just synonyms.
I leave this conversation now, because it's not leading anywhere. you simply keep denying our points, and we keep reapllying them.
Also, one last note. Yes, it needs is own list. red wizard, ultimate magus and their kin dont count as spellcaster FOR RULES PURPOSES because of the exact same reasons that mystic theurge do. of course they count as spellcasters in-game, just not in the rules.
Prev arguments haven't seemed to work so lets go for one that is silly, but works by RAW if we want to nit-pick.
MT can never benefit from that as it is not a spellcasting class.
It is by RAW a "Prestige Class"
Since SS says nothing about advancing spellcasting of "Prestige Classes," by RAW MT cannot benefit. lol
Everyone else, please proceed with what we already know.
MT doesn't have it's own spells/day progression chart, therefore cannot benefit from SS, but other classes/prestige classes that do have their own spells/day progression chart can.
This is pathetic. Claiming that MT is a spellcasting class because all MT's cast spells is like claiming that "all cookies are brown, therefore everything that is brown is a cookie."
After all, all Fighter/Wizards can cast spells, so Fighter must be a spellcasting class, because it's part of the levels that a spellcaster has, right?
Wrong.
look at the Class Features:
Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.
If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.
as many have already said...... Mystic Theurge is not a Spell Casting class... it is a Prestige Class that advances PREVIOUS Spell casting Class Progression
how is this confusing?
:D
The only thing that could possibly state that is a sage, cuz I've checked elsewhere and seen nothing. Also MT has its own "spells/day" chart literally on its class progression chart, and in its class skills it says "Spells per Day" and describes exactly how its spellcasting increases as it levels. I use the word spellcasting for a reason, because as all of you seem to have diliberately disregarded, it clearly and distinctly states that MTs are spellcasters in its description. Just like a wizard is said to be a spellcaster in its description, so is the MT.
It doesn't have a SPELL PROGRESSION of it's own, nor does it provide any SPELLS/DAY on it's own. If your DMG shows actual spells per day on the MT level chart, I'd like to see an image of it. What MT actually does, as a Class Feature, is that it advances the spell progression of another (two) class(es), but this is not the same thing.
Just compare...This or this or even this with the same chart on the MT writeup.
Notice that the former three (and every other 'spellcasting class' that a +1 caster level PrC refers to) have actual numbers under 'Spells/day' and not just +1 caster level.
Also notice nothing in the MT writeup that says that MT is a spellcasting class, it says that...
the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously.
It doesn't say anything about the MT being a spellcasting class, it says it advances OTHER spellcasting classes.
Now, if you had said you wanted to use something like, Uncanny Trickster, or bloodlines, which explicitly state that it advances 'Class Features', you might have an argument.
@ everyone, if people have tried this before, I appoloize, however I think I'm making a better point then them as everything I've stated here works RAW, though I know you all want to believe it as little as possible, and so do I
Seriously, do a freaking google if you don't believe us, this argument has been made before and refuted multiple times, by people a lot smarter than me. You aren't making the argument any better than the previous failures were. It isn't 'everyone out to get you', it's that you're wrong, even in theory, not by RAW or any other measure of rules. It just doesn't work that way.
how did this get this far?
No kidding.
Ok, when the ENTIRE CO-BOARD disagrees with you, literally everyone, I'm pretty sure you're wrong.
+1 level existing message board posting class/+1 level existing post count bolstering class.
That aside, I do believe you are incorrect, but I'd like to apologize for the amount of vitriol this has drawn from both sides. I know it's not my place, but I definitely can say I understand why you might think MT counts as a spell casting class.
But! Let us put forward a thought. Here, unlike in most places, we walk among titans, men who have learned the system's ins and outs with a great deal of thoroughness, who have sat at the knee of the mad CustServ seers, who have talked and thought and chewed. Their wisdom, freely offered, is probably pretty well worth considering.
RAW, MT grants you levels of progression in an existing class with a set of abilities loosely defined as casting spells. While it may be a spellcasting class semantically speaking, and certainly from the standpoint of pure systemic logic there is nothing that denies us this interpretation, we have one thing that must lead us to presume it is not for our purposes a spell casting class.
Ready?
Tinfoil hats locked in position, boys, we're headed into hell.
The advancement of spells per day that MT grants is a class feature.
Virtually no PrC grants you advancement of class features.
Instead they say "new spells per day as though you had gained a level in that class."
Casting progression is not a class feature. It's a mechanical axiom, that lives below the system's granularity of ruling. MT is a spellcasting class, yes, absolutely. It has no inherent spellcasting progression. If you gained a level in MT that did not also advance your class features:
You would gain no spells per day.
This is not to say that MT is not a casting class.
This is not to say that it has a spell progression, or does not. That does not matter.
This is to say that its ability to gain spells based on your base classes is a class feature, not an inherent progression. I say this because it has class specific rules governing what it does and does not do, as well as when and how it does such things. It is listed as a class feature.
Hence, Spellwarp Sniper could indeed be stacked with MT, it would simply do nothing because SwS, like all PrCs, specifies it does not in any fashion advance class features.
I'm AFB, so the precision of language I desire here is unavailable to me. I apologize if this adds fuel to the fire rather than resolving matters.
I would say Spells per Day is a separate class feature from Spells, and would therefore not be subject to increase from increasing the number of spells per day from another prestige class.
Look, a "spellcaster" has a description, however a "spellcasting class" does not. A mystic theurge's only ability is to cast spells, so though its left to the players to decide it for themselves, I personally believe that they have that ability. If they do not, then a person who levels up 1 level in MT is actually levelling up 3 times simotaniously; once in MT, once in cleric, and once in wizard. This just doesn't sound right to me. Increasing another casting class' level isn't a class feature, its "how" they get their spells. The reason why classes like this don't have the list, is because a)it would be annoying as hell to type out for WotC and look awkward, and b)it allows you to choose if you want to be say, a druid instead of a cleric, or a favoured soul so you can have those spontanious spells, and what not. It could not possibly have a specific list without being horribly horribly mangled and nerfed beyond the point of anyone ever wanting to play it, and it would not make sense in the slightest as to how the prerequistes work with the Spells per Day of the class.
I hopes no bodeh's gettin angry at me for posting this, I believe you that its been posted before, I've just never seen it personally, I thought it an amazing find, and so far, I still cannot see anything within the rules that deny this. I'm not disregarding your posts, I'm reading them, and I'm trying to make them work, but that nagging voice never ceases because there is a hole in every one of them. This has a terrible hole in itself, because of RAI, but according to word for word the written text of every word in every book, nothing states that this class isn't a spellcasting class, and though it doesn't have a list, it has a spell "progression", it allows you to cast spells that you would not have been able to if you did not have this class. If you can cast 2nd level divine and arcane, then gain 2 levels of this class, he can cast lvl 3 spells, if he loses these class levels, he no longer can, therefore its his MT levels that are providing him with these spells, merely by "tapping" into the arcane and divine magic sources that he's used to already from his other classes.
Yes, I know everybody on the board is against me, but I've also noticed that in every response, someone is leaving out the counter argument that I already have made towards what they're about to say. I'll consider myself wrong, once everyone reads these posts and considers the possibility that its "possible" I could have been right. I know its disgustingly broken RAI, and no one would ever allow it, I just wanted it to be acknowledged to be true from someone who had no conscious, but just the knowledge of what is provided by the books. Thanks and sorry for your time
Okay, first off, the plural of anecdote is not facts.
That aside, I do believe you are incorrect, but I'd like to apologize for the amount of vitriol this has drawn from both sides. I know it's not my place, but I definitely can say I understand why you might think MT counts as a spell casting class.
But! Let us put forward a thought. Here, unlike in most places, we walk among titans, men who have learned the system's ins and outs with a great deal of thoroughness, who have sat at the knee of the mad CustServ seers, who have talked and thought and chewed. Their wisdom, freely offered, is probably pretty well worth considering.
RAW, MT grants you levels of progression in an existing class with a set of abilities loosely defined as casting spells. While it may be a spellcasting class semantically speaking, and certainly from the standpoint of pure systemic logic there is nothing that denies us this interpretation, we have one thing that must lead us to presume it is not for our purposes a spell casting class.
Ready?
Tinfoil hats locked in position, boys, we're headed into hell.
The advancement of spells per day that MT grants is a class feature.
Virtually no PrC grants you advancement of class features.
Instead they say "new spells per day as though you had gained a level in that class."
Casting progression is not a class feature. It's a mechanical axiom, that lives below the system's granularity of ruling. MT is a spellcasting class, yes, absolutely. It has no inherent spellcasting progression. If you gained a level in MT that did not also advance your class features:
You would gain no spells per day.
This is not to say that MT is not a casting class.
This is not to say that it has a spell progression, or does not. That does not matter.
This is to say that its ability to gain spells based on your base classes is a class feature, not an inherent progression. I say this because it has class specific rules governing what it does and does not do, as well as when and how it does such things. It is listed as a class feature.
Hence, Spellwarp Sniper could indeed be stacked with MT, it would simply do nothing because SwS, like all PrCs, specifies it does not in any fashion advance class features.
I'm AFB, so the precision of language I desire here is unavailable to me. I apologize if this adds fuel to the fire rather than resolving matters.
No, thank you, I agree with everything said here. Except one thing (
) As you can tell from the links in the posts above, There are a few distinct columns on a character's progression, and thats exactly whats getting me. The columns are as followslevel BAB Fort Ref Will Special -----Spells per Day-----
This is true for base casting classes (I was looking at Bard for reference, which is definitely a casting class with casting as a base ability. Also its still listed under the "class features" section, as is MT's ability) and prestige casting classes based on other class' spell lists. Basically, everything thats considered "class feature" goes under the "Special" column, and then everything thats spellcasting goes under the "Spells per Day" column. Fighters don't get a Spells per Day column, classes that cast spells do.
Hopefully this doesn't put you off this version of disproving it, I'm actually hoping we can, but I wanna do it legit, not just accepting its over, if possible
Also, Candela, where are you seeing this? Cuz in my books it says Spells per Day
For example, for Sorcerer, on page 54 in my PHB, the second class feature, right under Weapon and Armor Proficiency, is Spells.
On page 192 in my DMG, the Mystic Theurge has Spells per Day right under Weapon and Armor Proficiency.
They just never learn...
Assassin (5th feature)
Mystic Theurge (2nd feature)
I just want non-ambiguous definitions for system keywords.
That's the trouble isn't it? They have keywords that don't seem to be keywords, keywords that are only used once or twice, keywords that they don't always use as keywords etc.
hmmm, so basically, the only difference there is, is that under the class features, its listed as spells instead of Spells per Day or Spellcasting. The only thing we need to confirm this difference now is that prestiege classes don't have a Spells per Day or Spellcasting instead of a Spells description. If they all merely have Spells, then I guess we can finally rule this as a no go, put it in FAQ, and use that as a solid proof against people who suggest this in the future. Basically we need a list of classes that have that ability type and what it says under their descriptions, otherwise we're back at square one. Please, anyone who can, help with this, that way we can finally end this string of nightmares forever. This is the only thing that can beat this trick RAW that I've seen, so lets hope to god it works whilest research takes place. Good find candela, I hope you're right
Well, both of the classes I linked to were prestige classes. One has "Spells" and the other has "Spells per Day". I might not be following what you're saying, but basically, the classes that grant spell casting have "Spells", and the prestige classes that modify spell casting capabilities use either "Spells per Day" or "Spells Known", and maybe some other ones.
I think this whole thing is actually still open to interpretation, but I side with the majority of the CO board.
There are a few prestige classes that explicitly state that they advance class features (see hellfire warlock discussions). Those are the prestige classes that would work along w/ Mystic Theurge. Not sure exactly, since I don't have those particular books, someone more versed in that lore would be able to follow up there.
Mystic Theurge (as well as other dual-progression Prestige Classes such as True Necromancers) grants additional spells per day a) for existing arcane & divine spellcasting class b) as part of a class feature. As MT does not have a spells known/ spells per day table accompanying the class, there is no additional spells per day granted by the Spellwarp Sniper when applying towards the Mystic Theurge.
Then again, if you want to get technical, Mystic Theurge does not state that you learn new spells with the levels gained, so Sorcs would never learn a new spell to go with their new spell levels. Wizards would have to buy scrolls, but that isn't too bad. Unless your DM is an arse and doesn't have magic shops neatly available w/ scrolls for purchase. :P You have additional spells per day, but nothing to memorize/cast.
Edit: The only amount of confusion is that the class feature list in the chart is titled "Spells per Day" instead of "Class Features". As the DMG was one of the earlier printings for 3.5 rules, there might be some irregularities... but then again even some later books have irregularities in their descriptions.
There are prestige classes that have their own spell progression charts (Sublime Chord, Holy Liberator, Ur-Priest). Those are valid references to be progressed.
If you want to disbelieve this information, there is not much we can do but shake our heads. Go, have fun, and hope you have a DM that sides with you, since the majority of the people here will not.
thats what this thread is like
Dunno how you are arguing this one.
Mystic Theurge (as well as other dual-progression Prestige Classes such as True Necromancers) grants additional spells per day a) for existing arcane & divine spellcasting class b) as part of a class feature. As MT does not have a spells known/ spells per day table accompanying the class, there is no additional spells per day granted by the Spellwarp Sniper when applying towards the Mystic Theurge.
100% wrong, it does clearly say it. Why does no one read the earlier posts so this doesn't have to reach 60 stinkin replies??
I'll give in once someone shows me anything that actually disproves it. Pithica had the best attempt...
You clearly have a misconception where the burden of proof lies. Fantastic claims do not require being disproven, they require proof.
If I was to claim that my 5th level fighter can crap swarms of angry bees, you will find nowhere in the rules that proves me wrong. The burden of proof is mine.
You need to be showing us proof that a PrC that has no independant spellcasting, but merely advances spellcasting of previous classes, counts as independant spellcasting progression.
As Carnivore's previous post showed, by the rules, a MT merely advances spellcasting of previous classes.
Your response that you are unconvinced is not sufficient. You now need to show proof that a wizard 5/cleric 5/MT 5 is not merely a Wizard 10/Cleric 10 in regards to spellcasting progression.
Otherwise, you are just crapping swarms of bees.
100% wrong, it does clearly say it. Why does no one read the earlier posts so this doesn't have to reach 60 stinkin replies??
It does not have a Spells/Day chart with a spell progression. The Spells/day chart is freaking empty, having just two '+1/+1 lines' each, both referring to other, actual, spellcasting classes. The fact that you refuse to see this is your problem, not anyone else's.
I've pointed this out three times now. I'm out.
Your response that you are unconvinced is not sufficient. You now need to show proof that a wizard 5/cleric 5/MT 5 is not merely a Wizard 10/Cleric 10 in regards to spellcasting progression.
Otherwise, you are just crapping swarms of bees.
Okay, I have to admit, this was pure genius :P
For the purposes of this forum, we've all got to assume a certain interpretation of the rules. Unless specified that a particular rule is a house-rule, we've got to assume the majority opinion on rules is correct (I've been bad about that myself, actually). It seems like the weird interpretation is minority.
So, if you want to optimize something with this interpretation, then that's great, we can help. No point in belaboring the point that you think we're all wrong.
You clearly have a misconception where the burden of proof lies. Fantastic claims do not require being disproven, they require proof.
If I was to claim that my 5th level fighter can crap swarms of angry bees, you will find nowhere in the rules that proves me wrong. The burden of proof is mine.
You need to be showing us proof that a PrC that has no independant spellcasting, but merely advances spellcasting of previous classes, counts as independant spellcasting progression.
As Carnivore's previous post showed, by the rules, a MT merely advances spellcasting of previous classes.
Your response that you are unconvinced is not sufficient. You now need to show proof that a wizard 5/cleric 5/MT 5 is not merely a Wizard 10/Cleric 10 in regards to spellcasting progression.
Otherwise, you are just crapping swarms of bees.
That was so freakin' genius i have to come back to this thread.
also, i mailed WoTC about this, since i find it hard to believe that a 1 vs all discussion can reach friggin 61 replies.
We've seen way. way. worse. There's a mail out to CustServ now, and I suggest we see what kind of answer we get.
Please note that the next fighter I design will have to find a way to crap bees. Look what you've done
He's not being THAT unreasonable. Don't crucify him.
We've seen way. way. worse. There's a mail out to CustServ now, and I suggest we see what kind of answer we get.
Please note that the next fighter I design will have to find a way to crap bees. Look what you've done
If you do that, fighter becomes my favorite class.
You've earned at least that much effort from me, for your excellent handbooks. I'll see what I can do. I mean, I think adding "Class Feature: Bee-Stool" to the fighter should be doable. How many dips am I allowed, and what level cap?
...There's a mail out to CustServ now, and I suggest we see what kind of answer we get...
Some along the lines of "Screw you, this is 3.5! We only do 4e!"
You know, if they released these books to a select few optimizers to proofread, we would catch most of these things...
I know RPGs are a small market, but it would take so little effort. So very little. I mean, Planar Shepard? Walker In The Wastes?
Yes, I want my players to turn into liches and timelords by twelfth level. That sounds greeeeeat! Part of a balanced breakfast, indeed. :raincloud Oh, a free mummy-army that we never errata'd and CustServ gives varying answers about?
:invasion:
PS: NOT THE BEES!
So far the proof that I have is that it merely states a "spellcasting class" to which logic states its a class that can cast spells. MTs (and other similar classes) are the ones that begin granting new spells, and therefore its the MT casting the spell when its a higher level spell (lvl 3 wiz level 2 MT, 0, 1, & 2 lvl spells cast by wiz, 3rd lvl spells cast by MT). Also, in the description of a MT it states that they belong to the group known as spellcasters. I suppose beyond that, I can't prove it is a spellcaster, but I still do think that it would be sufficient proof. At least we can stop this before 70 replies? Hopefully that FAQ will give a reply, but the question that was asked is what my question is. Surely this doesn't work RAI, but I'm just curious if MT is considered a spellcaster by WotC, cuz thats what this whole debate comes down to
EDIT: 80 replies*
I'm not just saying "no, you're all wrong", I've been giving proof that states otherwise.
"Proof"? Did the discussion on "burden of proof" bypass you entirely?
So far the proof that I have is that it merely states a "spellcasting class" to which logic states its a class that can cast spells. MTs (and other similar classes) are the ones that begin granting new spells, and therefore its the MT casting the spell when its a higher level spell (lvl 3 wiz level 2 MT, 0, 1, & 2 lvl spells cast by wiz, 3rd lvl spells cast by MT).
Except the MT does not grant you new spells. It grants you the ability to gain new spells from two other classes. That's what the whole "+1 level..." in their spells per day column means.
Also, in the description of a MT it states that they belong to the group known as spellcasters. I suppose beyond that, I can't prove it is a spellcaster, but I still do think that it would be sufficient proof.
Fluff is mutable.
Fluff is immaterial.
Fluff is not rules text.
Basing your "proof" on flavor text is fallacious from the outset.
At least we can stop this before 70 replies? Hopefully that FAQ will give a reply, but the question that was asked is what my question is. Surely this doesn't work RAI, but I'm just curious if MT is considered a spellcaster by WotC, cuz thats what this whole debate comes down to
We can stop it as soon as your argument is anything more than "Okay, I hear you, but you're wrong because I don't believe you." CO regulars are attracted to debates on rules minutiae like moths to a flame, and such an obviously one-sided argument is even more tempting.
All these are classes that are spellcasting classes... why? Because as a class feature, they all have a feature that at the beginning of it's description clearly states that they cast spells or gain the ability to cast spells. Classes that advance spellcasting of other classes but are NOT spellcasters, such as Mystic Theurge do not have a class feature that states they cast spells, they have a class feature that allows them to advance a previous spellcasting class.
To be a spellcasting class, a class must logically have a class feature that allows them to cast spells.
I hope this is enough to wrap this up? :D
I apologize customer service does not have the ability to answer questions about versions of Dungeons and Dragons other then Fourth edition. We have collected some information here that may answer your question, but if it is not there the only advise I can give is to have your Dungeon Master make the best call he can and go forward from there.
Good Gaming!
(the answer custserv send me)
(the answer custserv send me)
Custserv was useless anyways, and less than useful in solving disputes.
To prove this once, I had two different people send Custserv the same question but worded differently (each way worded showed an interest in a certain response). The two responses came with the opposite answer.
So far the proof that I have is that it merely states a "spellcasting class" to which logic states its a class that can cast spells.
Please explain how the MT does not just improve the casting of previous classes, as it says in the description, as per Carnivore's post on page 1, but instead gains casting of its own, in conflict with the PrC description.
If it is just improving previous classes casting abilities - then how does this constitute proof of any kind?
Let me ask you this: What is the spellcasting of a MT? Please keep the spellcasting of previous classes out of your answer...
Honestly... I'd say that a wizard 20 would wreck any of this mystic theurge garbage at every level until level 20 when this build could potentially get 9th level spell. Even at 20 there are much more powerful caster builds than this.
I've had to say this many times: The limiting factor for wizards has never been options. It's always been actions.
Arogenith: I think it's pretty clear that no one supports your view of this. Mystic Theurge does not have it's own spellcasting to advance. I think the fact that it advances other spellcasting instead of creating it's own is proof enough.
- Spellcasting is a class feature. it is under the class features section of the classes that do it. please dont say that class features are under the 'special' column, because 'special' and 'class features' are not the same in my opinion.
- The Mystic Theurge, and all the other PrC's with a similar ability, advances that class feature
- So what you are saying is, the class feature to advance a class feature is the same as the class feature you are advancing
- uncanny trickster can advance ALL class features
- according to your theory, uncanny tricksters have all class features, qualifi for all classes, and lots of other nonsense
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously.
As an example, say you have Bob, a wiz4/clr3. Bob can cast level 2 arcane spells. Bob decides to take a level in MT, making him wiz4/clr3/MT1. Bob can now cast level 3 arcane spells. What granted him the ability to cast level 3 arcane spells? Wiz4 didn't. Clr3 didn't. If he didn't have MT1, he would not have the ability to cast level 3 arcane spells, but now that he has MT1 he can. Just because Bob has the spells per day of a wiz5 doesn't mean he IS a wiz5.
It's pretty obvious to me that for this to happen, MT has to grant spellcasting ability. If it only "improved" spellcasting ability, then Bob would not get to cast level 3 spells, only better/more level 2 (and lower) spells.
I almost hate to do it, but I have to say that I read MT as granting spellcasting ability. Here's why:
This is why people are getting ****** off at the OP for continuing to propagate ignorance, ignorance breeds and festers.
I'm snipping out your explanation because it's irrelevant.
Instead, I'm going to quote the same thing you did to show you what you, and the OP seem to keep missing...
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to [u]before he added the prestige class[/u] and any one divine spellcasting class he [u]belonged to previously.[/u]
MT isn't a spellcasting class. It adds it's level to OTHER spellcasting classes. No amount of focusing on the first part of that sentence gives you the right to ignore the latter half of that sentence.
1) MT is not a spell-casting class as it does not grant the ability to cast spells to a character that previously did not have the ability to cast spells.
2) If you managed to satisfy the requirements to enter MT (and took level(s) of MT), but then lost the ability to cast spells from one (or both) of the classes, you would also lose the ability to cast spells of levels gained by your level(s) of MT.
Example of this is Cleric 5/ Wizard 5/ MT 5.
Cleric performs act(s) that their deity determines is against protocol, and has angered said deity. Cleric loses the ability to cast spells. Gaining another level of MT without seeking atonement will state that it grants another level of spellcasting in both a divine and arcane spellcasting class held prior to the level of MT. You do not spontaneously gain the ability to cast divine spells, even though you had level(s) of MT prior to your new level of MT.