Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bahamut920 Jun 25, 2012 20:24:24	Due to a lucky combination of abilities, my Wizard 5/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Spellguard of Silverymoon 5 has the ability to cast the shapechange spell on others (My DM has ruled that since shapechange frequently increases physical ability scores and/or natural armor, it counts as a defensive spell for the purposes of the Spellguard's spellguard class ability).  He can do it at a range due to possessing the Reach Spell feat and Ultimate Magus levels, so he doesn't even have to get near the battle (and in a few levels, he'll be able to Chain Spell it, too). The party consists of three paladins (a human and two goatfolk; one of the goatfolk dual-wields due to a relic weapon we found, the other is a 2HW fighter, and the human is a combination 2HWF and sword-and-board - his shield changes sizes at will as a free action), a Neutral Good gnome cleric of Gond (more healbot/buffmonkey than cleric-zilla), an archer (an elf with more classes than I can remember off the top of my head, but mostly a Swift Hunter with a few rogue and fighter levels), and an earth genasi druid/forestmaster (who can cast shapechange, himself, but not on others). What would be the best forms for a bunch of sword-wielding smite maniacs (and the archer and cleric, too, I guess)?
#2 awaken_D_M_golem Jun 26, 2012 16:09:36	... My DM has ruled that since shapechange frequently increases * physical ability scores and/or natural armor, it counts as a defensive spell for the purposes of the Spellguard's spellguard class ability ... Makes sense ... (I've no book access) Dex+ = better AC , like multiple 1st level spells and powers Con+ = better HP , like multiple 1st level spells and powers NA+ = better AC , like above some (su) abilities = better "defensive" abilities ... just so long as it satisfies one of these things (or similar). Str+ = probably not , unless some ability turns Str+ into a defensive improver
#3 thedragonmaster Jun 26, 2012 16:38:56	I vote Chronothyryn*, as always, for every casting of Shapechange from here to the end of time. Two full rounds worth of actions per round in itself being the reasoning behind it. * It's in FF or MM2, I never remember which.
#4 Krusk Jun 27, 2012 15:10:49	Its in a 3.0 book regardless. Its ability IIRC is based off of the haste power, and in a 3.5 conversion should probably have a 3.5 haste applied to it.  If your DM is fine with you running it as is, its way beyond anything else as an option.
#5 thedragonmaster Jun 28, 2012 2:29:46	It's not in any way shape or form based on Haste. If it was, I wouldn't have recommended it. The fluff revolves around it having two heads and thus two concurrent minds, but it's still somehow a Su ability. Having spent a lot of time toying in my mind with a Master Transmogrifist in Chronotyryn/Choker-form for epic action economy abuse (not epic in TO standards, but in Character Development standards (old community boards how I miss you!)), I read up on it a few times... oh, and it's in FF, I checked.
#6 Krusk Jun 28, 2012 15:52:52	It was written under 3.0 rules where it haste allowed you to do pretty much exactly that. They put some fluff in about it having two brains, but really it has haste.  To convert to 3.5 the first thing that should be done is the removal of two standard actions a turn.
#7 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 28, 2012 16:06:59	It was written under 3.0 rules where it haste allowed you to do pretty much exactly that. They put some fluff in about it having two brains, but really it has haste.  To convert to 3.5 the first thing that should be done is the removal of two standard actions a turn.  Like they did on the choker. Or, since we're talking about two brains, we should change it the same way they updated Schism from 3e to 3.5. And I'm positive they fixed it when they published a 3.5 update to the Fiend Folio. ...Wait... The chronotyrn is a lot more than just having two brains. You can guess that there's more to it given the first part of their name. Since we're talking a ninth level spell that can already do pretty much exactly what the chronotyrn can do without stepping outside of core, it isn't a problem - particularly because it's impossible to mix the two without being a master transmogrifist, and that class normally costs you four caster levels if you want that specific ability (meaning I don't know how the Dragonmaster got both Infinite Variety and Shapechange, unless he was casting the latter from an item).
#8 Krusk Jun 28, 2012 16:25:33	I don't follow what you said, can you clarify some? Also checked fiend folio, which doesn't mention it. I feel like I just missed a bunch of sarcasm or something.  Timestop is a 9th level spell, this is a racial trait. Not really the same. Chokers get an extra standard or move action, not full round worth of actions. They are also considered super good/broken good. The Schism gets a single extra standard action that can only be mental. Not the worst thing ever, because spells. But still not as good as "Full extra turn".
#9 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 28, 2012 16:46:44	I don't follow what you said, can you clarify some? Also checked fiend folio, which doesn't mention it. I feel like I just missed a bunch of sarcasm or something. Yeah, I was being sarcastic. All three of those places are perfect opportunities for the 3.5 update to apply, so if there was a general rule against blocking extra actions, they would have shown up there. Instead, the choker's ability was unchanged, Schism (which has the two-brain flavor and existed as a clear extra-action parallel to 3e Haste) was virtually unchanged, and the Fiend Folio explicitly used large elements of what would eventually become 3.5 itself during its writing - the only exceptions were things like DR, which is why that's more or less the only thing related to the Fiend Folio that needed updating. As a result, we cannot say that extra-actions were under a blanket nerf in 3.5. In fact, I think only a minority (Haste and some of the many versions of Expert Tactician) were actually changed; the guideline for fewer action-abusers was more of a "going forward" thing (at least until Races of Destiny, which had two of the worst psionic powers ever written*, and culminating in the PHB2, which had the Celerity line of spells). * To be fair, when Synchronicity and Anticipatory Strike were reprinted in Complete Psionic, they deleted a part of Anticipatory Strike. Read the versions of the powers in Races of Destiny and then carefully look at ready actions and delays and how initiative ticks. It's possible to use those powers with a psicrystal to actually get the initiative counter to skip over an enemy, in effect turnjacking them, and there's nothing you can do about it as-written. The CPsi versions got rid of the paragraph that lets this work - one of only a small number of ways CPsi actually improved psionics.
#10 Krusk Jun 29, 2012 9:54:55	Thanks for the clarification.  It appears psionics has a lot of similar options to a chronotyrtn. I've never actually played a psionic guy, and rarely see them in play when DMing, or by other players, so I can't really debate this and will just assume you are correct.
#11 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 29, 2012 11:44:19	Thanks for the clarification.  It appears psionics has a lot of similar options to a chronotyrtn. I've never actually played a psionic guy, and rarely see them in play when DMing, or by other players, so I can't really debate this and will just assume you are correct.  Oddly, I think I just listed every single psionic power that involves action abuse. The grand total list in every book is Hustle (psywar/egoist only), Synchronicity (widely reviled, even though it's basically just a ready-action), Anticipatory Strike (expensive and much less abusive after the editing), Fission (Egoist only, needs a psicrystal and Metamorphosis (polymorph!) to truly break), Temporal Acceleration (a great power, but expensive and weakens you after using it), and Schism (telepath-only, takes a round to come online, and the second mind is limited to PURELY mental actions (so you can't mix it with spellcasting unless there's no components) and comes at a serious ML penalty). There are half as many spells that do this in the PHB2 alone, and they're all better. When viewed in the context of psionics as a whole, the victory is clear: Psionics do not scale for free, so you have to pay for each effect you want. Furthermore, if an effect shows up in psionics and in magic, it usually costs more (again!), has some drawback (see Schism), or has some anti-synergy failsafe in place to prevent abuse. The classic example is metamagic. A psion has to know at least two extra feats to even consider using two metapsionic feats at once (Psicrystal Affinity + Psicrystal Containment), and even then it takes two full-round actions afterwards to do it again, so it's limited to once per combat. For another two feats (Psionic Meditation and Expanded Knowledge: Hustle - even egoist might want this, since the psychic warrior version of Hustle is cheaper) you can recharge in a single round with a move+swift action and 3 power points - in other words, you can use two metamagics at once every other round (or a metamagic and regular movement every round) by spending four feats on top of the metamagic and a second-level spell slot every turn. Sorcerers can just give up their familiar and get better than that.
#12 Slagger_the_Chuul Jun 29, 2012 11:56:57	The classic example is metamagic. A psion has to know at least two extra feats to even consider using two metapsionic feats at once (Psicrystal Affinity + Psicrystal Containment), and even then it takes two full-round actions afterwards to do it again, so it's limited to once per combat. For another two feats (Psionic Meditation and Expanded Knowledge: Hustle - even egoist might want this, since the psychic warrior version of Hustle is cheaper) you can recharge in a single round with a move+swift action and 3 power points - in other words, you can use two metamagics at once every other round (or a metamagic and regular movement every round) by spending four feats on top of the metamagic and a second-level spell slot every turn. Sorcerers can just give up their familiar and get better than that. The only exception that comes to mind on the metapsionic front would be the dominant ideal ardent, who can get effective metapsionics with powers from a single mantle (at the cost of one secondary mantle).  And that only puts a single psionic class variant slightly ahead of the magical standard when using a handful of powers with which they're specialized.