Rules:
1. This is about the WEAPON not the class or character. The class that will use the bow is a generic 20th level human fighter.
1. Any official DnD supplement 3.0/3.5 can be used. If a power was updated in 3.5 then the most recent version should be used.
2. This is for a level 20 non-epic character. Maximum of a +10 weapon with at least +1 devoted to the bonus. Powers that can be added for only a +gp cost are allowed in addition to the +10 max (example "Sizing" in MIC p.43).
3. The weapon is a bow. It can be any type of bow (even an EWP).
4. You can assume that most spells would also be available (example "Greater Magic Weapon").
Highest damage per round wins.
1. This is about the WEAPON not the class or character. The class that will use the bow is a generic 20th level human fighter.
4. You can assume that most spells would also be available (example "Greater Magic Weapon").
not sure what's meant by this since a 20th level fighter can't cast spells. Do you mean most spells would be available for item creation?
+3 Splitting
+2 Exit Wounds
+2 Force
+2 Holy
Each shot gives you 2 shots, which can hit up to 2 targets each if you line it up. They count as force effects, so they bypass incorporality. Holy gets you though most outsiders DR (just add mundane cold iron or silver arrows)and gives you +2d6 damage against most foes.
Tack on a Greater Revieling or Greater Energy Assault(Acid) crystal for kicks.
So, assuming 2 evil targets standing in a line, with a +5str composite long bow, you'd do
4x (1d8+5 +5 +2d6 +1d6 +3d6) or about 4x (35.5) or 142 damage per shot you take. A hasted fighter with Rapid Shot can take 6 shots a round, for 842 damage per round, split aprox evenly between 2 targets.
not sure what's meant by this since a 20th level fighter can't cast spells. Do you mean most spells would be available for item creation?
Just because a fighter20 can't cast it, doesn't mean he doesn't have a wizard20 or cleric20 friend who can?
There are quite a few spells that could be buffed onto the bow or arrows (like Flame Arrow), but of course they could go on any bow, so we should probably leave those out, unless they work especially well on a particular bow for some reason.
Also, a bow built for a +100 Strength modifier would do alot of damage... if you could find someone to fire it. So we should probably leave that off too, IMO.
Now, I think this would be a good starting point. Power Shot gives you an extra +20 damage per shot, and the base damage is higher than normal for a bow. It also shoots "force arrows", and adjusts to any Str modifier automatically. Assuming that the other properties don't increase the virtual enhancement bonus, let's add on Splitting, Holy, Vicious, and Exit Wounds for a start (that's +10 now) for [6d6+25+Str] x4 per shot (avg 184), assuming maximum power attack, someone to hit it with a GMW, and a +5 str mod. Then tack on whatever abilities that have flat gp costs.
Splitting, Exit Wounds, and Holy are a good start, but all he said the criteria was is "most damage". So I'd think adding on more damaging abilities, even things like Flaming, would be better than Force for this (silly) exercise. Now... for a bow for use in a real game, I agree that Force is better.
Hmmm, maybe a +1 Sacred Bane Evil Outsiders Bane Chaotic Outsiders Mage Bane Holy Splitting Acid?
Thats 3x bane for a +6 enhancment on top of the +5 for +11, then tack on 2d6 for sacred, 6d6 for bane, 2d6 for holy, and 1d6 for acid. Thats 1d8+11d6+16 per shot, times 2 for 2d8+22d6+32 or 107 damage to a single target. Greater Fiend Slaying Crystal makes it 114 per target. Thats 684 damage per round to a single true tanarri, since they are the only ones that fit all 3 of the banes (have [chaotic] [evil] and cast SLAs).
Of course, all my calcs are done with a +5 composite long bow as the base. I'd assume you could come up with more on a stronger pull bow, but seriously, who has a +100 str mod? There has to be a benchmark somewhere.
Also, if the foe was a 1/2 fiend X, you could tack on Bane X as well. 1/2 Fiends are [Evil] [Chaotic] and have SLAs. Something like a 1/2 fiend halfelf would let you stack on another 2 banes on for +4d6+4 damage.
Elven Double Bow (page 7, Arms and Equipment Guide)
Bow Blade (page 109, Complete Scoundrel)
Elvencraft Bow (page 166, Races of the Wild)
Swordbow (page 171, Races of the Wild)
Wounding is probably a shoe-in, as the more powerful the enemy is, the more powerful it is.
Force does dmg and allows ghost touch...but note a Soren-wood bow gives ghost touch, anyway.
Any bow allowing Power Shot should be a shoe-in. Likewise, a bow with infinite str and/or dex mods to dmg.
Splitting is neccessary...it doubles the power of all other effects.
If you can assume most spell effects exist, then you don't need holy, as you can get that from a paladin or clerical spell, and dmg type cold/silver/adamantine from quivers or jjust being made.
I'd guess that a +1 Hank's Bow with Splitting and Wounding would do the job. The arrows bypass all DR with force dmg (but not, you'll note, regeneration). Add Prismatic Burst if allowed on missile weapons (+30k), a Quiver of Anarial to pull out the correct kind of arrows for regen, or the appropriate Elemental Assault crystal thing, a Hardening spell to make the bow stronger. The bow has built-in Power Shot and infinite Str mod capacity for dmg. Tack a GMW on top for fun and goodness.
Exit Wound has the capability for more dmg raw, if someone is behind the target, but for broad-based shootie everyone, the above bow would be very hard to beat. Bane, while solidly the best enhancement for cost, is only good against one class of foes, and making a bow bane against 9 things is self-defeating.
===Aelryinth
Force does dmg and allows ghost touch...but note a Soren-wood bow gives ghost touch, anyway.
Where's Soren wood from?
Where's Soren wood from?
Serren Wood is from book of exalted deeds page 38
i agree that splitting+wounding is the best combo of enhancements
Exit Wound has the capability for more dmg raw, if someone is behind the target, but for broad-based shootie everyone...
For dealing damage to a single creature, I think a +1 splitting, wounding, marrowcrushing, psychokinetic bow would be best. Marrowcrushing adds another point of constitution damage per hit, for 4 total points of constitution damage per attack. The devastation spider from my example above, with 128 hit dice, would loose 1280 hit points to constitution damage per round.
I’m not up on the rules for improving specific weapons. How much enhancement bonus is left to work with when upgrading Hank’s bow?
I like Hank's Bow from above (Thanks PhaedrusXY, see link in post #4) Would be better to make it a +1 instead of a +2 bow, are there rules for doing this?
I think the +1 Hank's Bow of Wounding, Splitting is good for the first +6.
What about adding:
Marrowcrushing (BoVD p. 112 (+3)) = +1 con damage per hit
Magebane (Complete Arcane (+1)) = +2 bonus +2d6 dmg (most enemies at level 20 would have spells or SLA).
+1 Hank's Bow of Wounding, Splitting, Marrowcrushing, Magebane = +10
That would be 4 CON damage per attack plus other damage
Any other ideas?
EDIT:
Ammunition would be nice to include:
Arrows of Brilliant Energy, Seeking, Blood Seeking, Keen, Maiming, Binding +1
(This would allow all arrows from the bow to ignore armor/shield, cover, concealment, 19-20 threat with a 1d4 critical modifier, and target is effected by a dimensional anchor for 13 minutes.)
Granted with all these bonuses or whatnot it would probably mind control you.....but we're only talking weapon right?
EDIT: how do you guys get a calculation of 4 CON dmg... per attack?
wasnt there an ability that automatically made a bow the same as its wielder's strength bonus?
I think there is. Hank's bow (above) also does that.
EDIT: how do you guys get a calculation of 4 CON dmg... per attack?
Splitting. Each shot is two arrows.
I don't think you can "downgrade" an enhancement bonus unfortunately. So I think Hank's bow is stuck with +2. Some of its abilities might add to the effective enhancement bonus also. I just took best case scenario saying they didn't. It's always guesswork reverse engineering a unique item.
Also I don't think you can use arrows at all with Hank's bow. It fires force arrows.
Edit: I guess you can. I reread it. Nice.
Basically, the bow of the solars is kick ass and if money isn't an issue you should get it. On top of that every bow should be splitting. Tertiary abilities to grab include greater wounding (Savage species or some other obscure source for 2 con damage a hit for +4 cost), seeking (screw miss chance!), and bone crushing are all nice add ons, but not really needed.
+1 Splitting Bow of the Solars. Assuming rapidshot and haste are in effect you toss out 12 shots on a full attack. 46% chance to kill any creature with 12 hits. If we want to get fun we can toss on more attacks (belt of battle, tiger claw boost, swiftblade+manyshot (that's 16 attacks a round for a 53% chance to kill any creature) or factotum+manyshot (it dies because you stacked up some FoI to get as many actions as you need).
Basically, the bow of the solars is kick ass and if money isn't an issue you should get it. On top of that every bow should be splitting. Tertiary abilities to grab include greater wounding (Savage species or some other obscure source for 2 con damage a hit for +4 cost), seeking (screw miss chance!), and bone crushing are all nice add ons, but not really needed.
Slaying arrows I think require a Fort save (DC: 20) to work. Most Challenge rating 20 creatures will have over a +20 fortitude bonus. That makes the chance of death only 5% each shot (natural 1). Not to mention that "death ward" or similar spells/effects can make the target immune.
Greater Wounding is in MM2, but it only does hit point damage, not con damage.
I still think that CON damage is better, except vs. undead.
Oh, and if we add Trollbane alchemical substance to all arrows, it prevents regeneration.
with the size increase rules from the arms and equipment guide, a huge composite greatbow would do 3d8 base damage.
since this is a human without powerful build, you would have to use divine might or something, but that's reasonable.
i cant remember at what point you stop taking non-proficient penalties and instead become physically unable to wield a weapon.
monkey grip only works for melee weapons, so thats out.
there is always the proficient (+2) enchantment. and sizing for +5000gp
I'm pretty sure that Marrowcrushing and Wounding would be considered the same effects by current rules. Both are +3 enhancements dealing Con dmg. Greater Wounding does 2 hp dmg/rd per injury, which could add up in successive rounds if you generate a lot of hits, but for opening dmg isn't going to mean much, and its defeated by any cures, fast healing, and potentially regen.
Note that force dmg will bypass elemental DR, also. If you don't want to go Force dmg, A Soeren wood bow with Shadow Striking would take care of our last +3, and satisfies ALL conditions used to punch DR. Unless you can guarantee +15-20 dmg per arrow to bypass the DR of numerous enemies, it's probably the best default left.
Merciful is a good choice for pure dmg, although if the enemy has regen, this could be spotty without Trollbane (how do you apply alchemy to force arrows?)
Remember, this is about the bow, not the arrows. Arrows are made to be selective against certain creatures. Them Sacred Holy Axiomatic Demon-bane Demon-Slaying Arrows can be rather effective.
Also, there's the rules for Item familiars you can apply, and Ancestral Weapon lets you tack on extra goodies without violating the wealth limits...although I'm not sure that's a problem, given the rules. I think they are mostly there so you can get an intelligent weapon 'for free'.
Don't forget the Prismatic Burst for +30K.
Take an intelligent weapon with SPP "Preserve the life of the wielder" and tack on something with dmg, see what you get.
Any other +GP effects you can just add onto the weapon?
==Aelryinth
Hanks + Splitting + Wounding + Magebane + Enfeebling + Prismatic Burst seems pretty solid if combined with Keen arrows.
(or did I cross the 200k barrier, there?)
Marrowcrushing is restricted to blunt attacks, is it not? (Could be remembering wrong)...I'm pretty sure that Marrowcrushing and Wounding would be considered the same effects by current rules. Both are +3 enhancements dealing Con dmg.
In 3.0 the DMG "Wounding" (a +2 effect) was only 1hp/round extra damage, not CON damage. The 3.0 Book of Vile Darkness added a +3 effect "Marrowcrushing" that does 1 con damage, with no restrictions on critical hits (RAW). (it can be put on any type of weapon).
In DMG 3.5 they updated Wounding (Still +2 effect) to do 1 CON damage, but it is restricted to not be able to critical the ability damage.
Since both abilities have different costs and the difference between critical hits, I would say they qualify as separate effects.
Marrowcrushing is restricted to blunt attacks, is it not? (Could be remembering wrong). Also, I think Exit Wound requires arrows with piercing dmg (could also be mistaken). If we're using Hank's bow, all that dmg is force dmg.
It says you can string it up and use it like a normal bow, and all that it changes is that the damage is no longer force. I was going to protest people talking about using different arrows with it earlier until I went back and reread it.
Only got it for the necrotic skull spell that was mentioned in a different book.+1 Splitting Bow of the Solars.
The stated objective is "most damage per round" though. Killing an enemy with a save-or-die doesn't contribute to that.
Greater Wounding is in MM2, but it only does hit point damage, not con damage.
That’s been changed.
Greater Wounding Weapon Property: A greater wound-
ing weapon deals 2 points of Constitution damage from blood loss
when it hits a creature. A critical hit does not multiply the Consti-
tution damage. Creatures immune to critical hits (such as plants
and constructs) are immune to the Constitution damage dealt by
this weapon.
Strong evocation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Mor-
denkainen’s sword; Price +4 bonus.
This replaces the greater wounding property described in the
kelvezu entry, p. 62.
Wounding, greater wounding, splitting +1 That's -6 con a hit. -3 hp per the victim's hd.
i dont think that would work like that... since Wounding and Greater Wounding are the same effects, they Overlap, only the stronger would be used.... thus only -2 Con per hit
here is a fun Bow:
+1 Force(+2) Splitting(+3) Explosive(+3) Seeking(+1) Elvencraft Dwarvencraft Quality Serren Wood Composite Longbow
Force overcomes all DR, and ignores Incorporeal Miss chance
Splitting doubles the number of arrows shot
Explosive changes damage to a 5’ radius explosion that does 2d4 damage (Ref½ DC15).
Seeking ,Negates the Miss Chance due to Concealment, Blur, etc. The attack must be aimed at a hex containing a creature to work (i.e., it cannot find random Invisible foes in the battlefield).
Elvencraft ... May be used as a Longbow –or– a Quarterstaff. The wielder threatens the squares around himself/herself even if the last use was as a ranged weapon. The bow is not damaged when used as a melee weapon and the wielder may shift between ranged and melee as part of a Full Round Attack (if desired).
Dwarvencraft Quality ... +2 Hardness, +10 hp, +2 on all saving throws made by the item
Serren Wood ... Arrows & bolts made from Serren wood gain the Ghost-Touch property as an Exceptional (i.e., non-magical) ability Bows made from Serren wood grant the Ghost-Touch property to their ammo as an Exceptional ability.
:D
"Alright, so 12 of my attacks hit. So, roll 36 reflex saves."
From there, make it huge (wielded by a Enlarge Personed guy with Strongarm Bracers) for increased damage and range. Then go with Splitting of course... that's an obvious choice.
Of course, you can do much better with an Aptitude Great Crossbow, but that requires a more specific build.
JaronK
...Of course, you can do much better with an Aptitude Great Crossbow, but that requires a more specific build.
I'd like to hear how, please do elaborate.
Now, this build is effective as soon as it has Aptitude Great Crossbows, but at level 20 it's incredible. Open the fight by using Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still, and you'll have 48 shots, the vast majority of which are at full BAB. They threaten critical hits on a 15-20, and every time you threaten you get a free attack, and the bonus attacks can also generate new attacks, so that, on average gives you an additional 44 to 46 new attacks (don't forget that Splitting is doubling everything), meaning an average of about 92 shots in the opening round of combat. Due to Blood in the Water, you now have about +23 to hit and to damage, and of course Woodland Archery is probably giving you an additional +4 to hit relatively soon. At this point, the encounter is probably over, but if not, it's actually worthwhile to take a round recharging your manuevers before firing again, unless you think you can end the encounter next round, in which case just use Dancing Mongoose. That would give you only 36 or so shots, but with the Blood in the Water bonus you generated last round that's going to hurt quite a bit.
Your basic attack routine, then, becomes to stand near total cover and full attack with TSS and Raging Mongoose, then 5' step into cover. Next round, take a standard action to refresh manuevers, take a move action to hide, and take a 5' step to where you can shoot. Repeat, unless you want to finish with Dancing Mongoose. This makes you basically a really good sniper... except that instead of the usual form of sniping, you're more of an artillery piece. Also note that huge Great Crossbows get a +50% range increase due to their size, and you might as well wear that helm that gives far shot, so you've got absolutely incredible range with these things. Plus, you're wielding two huge Great Crossbows... could you look any more like a badass anime character? I think not. And note that Lightning Mace and Blood in the Water do trigger against critical immunes... you just don't get the bonus critical hit damage.
JaronK
Your basic attack routine, then, becomes to stand near total cover and full attack with TSS and Raging Mongoose, then 5' step into cover. Next round, take a standard action to refresh manuevers, take a move action to hide, and take a 5' step to where you can shoot. Repeat. This makes you basically a really good sniper... except that instead of the usual form of sniping, you're more of an artillery piece. Also note that huge Great Crossbows get a +50% range increase due to their size, and you might as well wear that helm that gives far shot, so you've got absolutely incredible range with these things. Plus, you're wielding two huge Great Crossbows... could you look any more like a badass anime character? I think not. And note that Lightning Mace and Blood in the Water do trigger against critical immunes... you just don't get the bonus critical hit damage.
JaronK
You forgot the part where you have to hold the xbows sideways while screaming filthy obscenities and whitty one-liners. You get tons of bonus damage for channeling any Bruce Willis character EVER.
Personally, I think every TSS/Raging Mongoose volley should require a one liner. "Say hello to my little friends!" being an obvious choice.
JaronK
You forgot the part where you have to hold the xbows sideways while screaming filthy obscenities and whitty one-liners. You get tons of bonus damage for channeling any Bruce Willis character EVER.
I'd go with "Yippee kye yay melon farmer!", which also happened to be the worst dubbing I've ever seen in my life. Good job Fox.
And thanks for the run down, Jaronk.
I'd go with "Yippee kye yay melon farmer!", which also happened to be the worst dubbing I've ever seen in my life. Good job Fox.
One edit of that I saw was "Yippe kye yi yay, Mister Falcon."
And thanks for the run down, Jaronk.
Sure thing.
JaronK
JaronK
Get Multidexterity, Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Greater Multiweapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Woodland Archer, Dead Eye, Skewer Foe, Rapid Shot and Precise Shot, proceed to pump out 60 arrows per round before Time Stands Still, Raging Mongoose, Lightning Mace and Blood in the Water. Heheheh.
JaronK
So we're assuming a fairly conservative campaign, where wording abuse of the Aptitude enhancement isn't allowed, and buying multiple artifact-level relics isn't allowed.
===Aelryinth
In 3.0 the DMG "Wounding" (a +2 effect) was only 1hp/round extra damage, not CON damage. The 3.0 Book of Vile Darkness added a +3 effect "Marrowcrushing" that does 1 con damage, with no restrictions on critical hits (RAW). (it can be put on any type of weapon).
In DMG 3.5 they updated Wounding (Still +2 effect) to do 1 CON damage, but it is restricted to not be able to critical the ability damage.
Since both abilities have different costs and the difference between critical hits, I would say they qualify as separate effects.
I see. So Wounding effectively replaces Marrowcrusher as a standard effect.
Greater Wounding would override Wounding, I believe, not stack with it. It'd still be 4 con per shot (2 per arrow), which would be a BIG effect with multiple effects (and should probably be +5 if it isn't already).
However, WOunding is ineffective against a fairly broad array of creatures, particularly undead, and doesn't actually do direct dmg. So while it can go on the wish list, it doesn't actually fit the criteria of the challenge.
===Aelryinth
However, WOunding is ineffective against a fairly broad array of creatures, particularly undead, and doesn't actually do direct dmg. So while it can go on the wish list, it doesn't actually fit the criteria of the challenge.
You are arguing that constitution damage is not damage?
Damage: A decrease in hit points, an ability score, or other aspects of a character caused by an injury, illness, or magical effect. The three main categories of damage are lethal damage, nonlethal damage, and ability damage.
You are arguing that constitution damage is not damage?
No, I think he was argueing for the fact that hp loss due to con damage is hard to factor for this experiment, because the hd of a foe is not an absolute factor, so the damage is not dependant on the internal mechanics of the bow. Against a foe with 10 hd, it might do 20 points of hp damage per shot, and against a foe with 1000 hd, it would do 2000 hp damage per shot. Its not like flaming, which does 1d6 to the target regardless of whether or not its a 1hd commoner or a 20 hd outsider. Thats why he was saying that its hardly applicable in the parameters of this challenge.
Creature-independence was not a stated criterion, so wounding does not violate the rules laid down. You’ll notice also that the original poster seems to like the use of wounding.
I still think that CON damage is better, except vs. undead.
That’s out of context, but my impression from his posts is that he views wounding as a legitimate entry.
It would be entirely reasonable to discuss both wounding and non-wounding bows, and to evaluate the number of hit dice that make one better than the other. I see no grounds for excluding discussion of wounding.
It would be entirely reasonable to discuss both wounding and non-wounding bows, and to evaluate the number of hit dice that make one better than the other. I see no grounds for excluding discussion of wounding.
Then a set number of HD should be used for calculating damage. I mean, you have the above mentioned Desolation Spider with what, 128 HD? Thats a huge difference from a 5 hd orc. See, thats the problem. You can qualify that a Holy bow does an average of +7 damage per hit against an evil target. As long as the foe is evil, thats 7 damage. Finite number. Against any evil target. As long as you aren't making the bow a Holy Unholy bow, you can safely assume that you'll get the +7 damage for the sake of the competition. Wounding is different. Its not a simple works or doesn't, its a function of the HD of the foe, something that is more variable than evil or not. Everything has HD, and different ammounts of them.
Therefore, you'd have to assign some kind of constant to wounding. Say, a 20 HD creature, since this is an uber bow probably ment to be held in the hands of a level 20 character. That means that each 2 points of CON you inflict, the target takes 20 damage. Thats gonna result in about 40% of the damage from the bow coming from one enchantement allone, but I guess thats part of the challenge.
:D
But quite expensive IIRC, and I think they only return at the end of the round. If you're talking about an archer that's shooting 20+ arrows per round, that's going to be a problem.
JaronK
6,006 gold each, and very much craftable. Upgrading would cost under 4,000 gold since a +10 item is 200k and ammo costs 2% normal price, thus 4k. Some of which is already accounted for above. Haste + Rapid Shot is 6 arrows a round. Splitting makes that 12 shots, but it's still only 6 arrows. Maybe if you were doing the Arrow Demon thing or the multiple full attacks a round thing you'd get more.
Arrows have been mentioned multiple times, so why not do it right? This gives you a +23 weapon instead of a +14 weapon.
here is a fun Bow:
+1 Force(+2) Splitting(+3) Explosive(+3) Seeking(+1) Elvencraft Dwarvencraft Quality Serren Wood Composite Longbow
Force overcomes all DR, and ignores Incorporeal Miss chance
Splitting doubles the number of arrows shot
Explosive changes damage to a 5’ radius explosion that does 2d4 damage (Ref½ DC15).
Seeking ,Negates the Miss Chance due to Concealment, Blur, etc. The attack must be aimed at a hex containing a creature to work (i.e., it cannot find random Invisible foes in the battlefield).
Elvencraft ... May be used as a Longbow –or– a Quarterstaff. The wielder threatens the squares around himself/herself even if the last use was as a ranged weapon. The bow is not damaged when used as a melee weapon and the wielder may shift between ranged and melee as part of a Full Round Attack (if desired).
Dwarvencraft Quality ... +2 Hardness, +10 hp, +2 on all saving throws made by the item
Serren Wood ... Arrows & bolts made from Serren wood gain the Ghost-Touch property as an Exceptional (i.e., non-magical) ability Bows made from Serren wood grant the Ghost-Touch property to their ammo as an Exceptional ability.
:D
* How is useful Force vs Serren Wood ?
I mean, the first one overcomes DR. The 2d is only to avoid the 50% for ethereal creatures as ghost ?
* Explosive => which kind of damage are done by the 2D4 ?
Changed it to
+1 Force(+2) Splitting(+3) Explosive(+3) Elvencraft Serren Wood Composite Longbow
What could be the price of this item ?
Changed it to
+1 Force(+2) Splitting(+3) Explosive(+3) Elvencraft Serren Wood Composite Longbow
What could be the price of this item ?
166700 gp, I think.
* How is useful Force vs Serren Wood ?
I mean, the first one overcomes DR. The 2d is only to avoid the 50% for ethereal creatures as ghost ?
Serren wood allows you to use the Bow as a Melee Weapon with Ghost Touch ability if needed ... and can still threaten adjacent because of Elvencraft
* Explosive => which kind of damage are done by the 2D4 ?
since Force converts the Damage to Force... the Explosion is also Force Damage
Changed it to
+1 Force(+2) Splitting(+3) Explosive(+3) Elvencraft Serren Wood Composite Longbow
What could be the price of this item ?
+9 bow = 162000gp
Elvencraft = +300gp
Serren Wood = +4000gp
Masterwork Composite Longbow = 400gp
166700gp total ... as _V_ said
:D
6,006 gold each, and very much craftable.
Somehow I thought they were more expensive than that. Yeah, that needs a special mention then... it's not technically a bow (neither were my crossbows) but it's something any archer should keep in mind.
JaronK
Serren wood allows you to use the Bow as a Melee Weapon with Ghost Touch ability if needed ... and can still threaten adjacent because of Elvencraft
Here's the exact verbiage from BOED, p38:
"Serren: Serren trees grow on Arvandor, the uppermost of Arborea’s three layers. The trees serve as vessels for nature spirits, and any branch that falls from a serren tree can be fashioned into a bow, arrow, or crossbow bolt imbued with a portion of the tree’s spirit. Serren bows, arrows, and bolts have the ghost touch special quality, although this property is not magical. The market price modifier for a serren weapon (one bow or 50 arrows or bolts) is +4,000 gp.
Serren has the same hit points per inch of thickness and hardness as regular wood."
Although both the DMG1 (p224) and MIC (Ghost Strike, p35) infer Ghost Touch is a special ability for melee (not missile) weapons, the text from BOED doesn't say anything about the Ghost Touch quality -- associated with Serren-crafted missiles/missile weapons -- being effective in melee only. In fact, the BOED passage appears to specifically infer that Ghost Touch is meant to affect missiles and missile weapons made of Serren wood.
IMHO, an Elvencraft bow made from Serren wood should be able to affect incorporeal creatures as a melee weapon AND a missile weapon, but I'd also double the monetary cost for each (+600 for Elvencraft; +8000 for Serren wood).
Just my $0.02 for my first post here. Game on.
IMHO, an Elvencraft bow made from Serren wood should be able to affect incorporeal creatures as a melee weapon AND a missile weapon, but I'd also double the monetary cost for each (+600 for Elvencraft; +8000 for Serren wood).
That would be the case if it didn't specify that the arrow is what needs to be made of Serren wood. See it's the wood that has the Ghost Touch ability, and it doesn't say it imbues the same ability on the arrows, so if the arrow itself isn't Serren wood, no dice.
"Serren bows, arrows, and bolts have the ghost touch special quality, although this property is not magical"
Or, you know, make the bow of it, as the entry also says.
"Serren bows, arrows, and bolts have the ghost touch special quality, although this property is not magical"
Right, that would make melee attacks with the bow have the Ghost Touch ability. However, where does it stipulate that it would imbue that arrows with it? Nowhere. So unless you're the kind of archer who throws his bow like a javelin, Serren wood would only work on melee attacks with the bow, provided you can make them.
You are arguing that constitution damage is not damage?
Wounding falls into the same category as Bane. If it can't do dmg against an opponent, or potentially up to 1/3rd of the opponents you fight, it can be considered a waste of an enchantment. Just because it's optimized for killing big creatures with high Con scores doesn't mean it does schlok against undead or constructs of much lower level/HD.
==Aelryinth
Or, you know, make the bow of it, as the entry also says.
"Serren bows, arrows, and bolts have the ghost touch special quality, although this property is not magical"
any property a missile weapon has, it confers to its ammunition.
The fact that Seren wood is not magical in no way replaces this overarching rule.
As a matter of fact, interpreting the above sentence any other way is pointless, because it wouldn't matter if Seren bows had the property if they couldn't confer it on their ammunition. If Elvencrafted, the bow is treated as a staff, and serenwood staves do not have the ghost touch property, now, do they?
==Aelryinth
any magical property a missile weapon has, it confers to its ammunition.
I'm AFB right now, but I'm fairly certain this is the case.
The fact that Seren wood is not magical in no way replaces this overarching rule.
I'll argue the opposite. The bow is Serren wood, the arrow is not, and there is no magic involved. What makes you think that a non-magical property of wood would be transferred from bow to arrow?
Out of game, if you shoot a cedar arrow with a yew bow, does the arrow become yew?
As a matter of fact, interpreting the above sentence any other way is pointless, because it wouldn't matter if Seren bows had the property if they couldn't confer it on their ammunition. If Elvencrafted, the bow is treated as a staff, and serenwood staves do not have the ghost touch property, now, do they?
Treating something as a staff doesn't make it a staff. It makes you use it differently, as though it was a staff, but it remains the same. So I'd have to disagree with that too.
[...] it doesn't say it imbues the same ability on the arrows [...]
It also doesn't say that the bow doesn't imbue the arrow with the ability, even though it's clear from the text a bow can be made from it.
I'll argue the opposite. The bow is Serren wood, the arrow is not, and there is no magic involved. What makes you think that a non-magical property of wood would be transferred from bow to arrow?
Some speculation: Perhaps the bow propels the arrow through whatever plane of existence (Ethereal plane?) is appropriate; some very specific planar travel.
Approaching the entire issue from a different angle:
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons).
That might change the question to: Does a weapon with the ghost touch special quality make it a ghost touch weapon?
It also doesn't say that the bow doesn't imbue the arrow with the ability, even though it's clear from the text a bow can be made from it.
Using the fact that it doesn't say it can't in an argument is a counterproductive use of faulty logic. The fact that the text doesn't stipulate that it does imbue the arrow means that it isn't a legitimate use of the wood, otherwise it would have been written.
Some speculation: Perhaps the bow propels the arrow through whatever plane of existence (Ethereal plane?) is appropriate; some very specific planar travel.
The fluff behind Serren wood, if I recall correctly, is that it is essentially from another plane, not that bows made from it shoot arrows through planes...
That might change the question to: Does a weapon with the ghost touch special quality make it a ghost touch weapon?
I don't understand your question here, I'm afraid. Serren wood bows count as Serren wood bows, and Serren wood has a mundane version of the Ghost Touch ability.
Using the fact that it doesn't say it can't in an argument is a counterproductive use of faulty logic.
No, I didn't say "[the description] doesn't say that the bow doesn't imbue the arrow with the ability, therefore it DOES pass it on to the arrow". I said the description doesn't explicitly prevent the bow from passing ghost touch on to its ammo. Therefore, it's undefined. RAW that means, it doesn't pass it on. RAI it might. RAW some other argument/rule might be found that does allow the special quality to be passed on to the ammo.
I don't understand your question here, I'm afraid. Serren wood bows count as Serren wood bows, and Serren wood has a mundane version of the Ghost Touch ability.
Let's go through it step by step.
A Serren wood bow counts as a weapon (a bow is a weapon), that has the ghost touch special quality.
When that bow is fired at an incorporeal target, an attack is made with a weapon that has the ghost touch special quality.
Is a "ghost touch weapon" a weapon that has the (magical) ghost touch special ability?
Or is a "ghost touch weapon" a weapon that has the ghost touch special ability or special quality?
If it's the latter, it satifies "or attacks made with ghost touch weapons" from the description of the incorporeal subtype.
Perhaps a new thread should be made if this argument is going to continue.
Perhaps a new thread should be made if this argument is going to continue.
A whole thread for our pointless argument? How about we agree to disagree and call it a day?
Let's go through it step by step.
A Serren wood bow counts as a weapon (a bow is a weapon), that has the ghost touch special quality.
When that bow is fired at an incorporeal target, an attack is made with a weapon that has the ghost touch special quality.
Is a "ghost touch weapon" a weapon that has the (magical) ghost touch special ability?
Or is a "ghost touch weapon" a weapon that has the ghost touch special ability or special quality?
If it's the latter, it satifies "or attacks made with ghost touch weapons" from the description of the incorporeal subtype.
I'd say RAW-wise, this is correct, because of the passage you quoted. It specifically does say that ghost touch weapons confer that property to their ammunition. Serren-wood bows are ghost touch weapons. It doesn't matter how or why they are ghost touch weapons.
Also, the fluff is that the wood is from a tree in which there is a nature spirit. So it's the spirit that confers the ghost touch ability.
Its religious.If we are on to wounding, go for "greater wounding" in the errata file of monster manual 2 Its religious.
Or listen to that guy and ignore me lol
but just so ya know I'm not crazy, without a house rule it can't be done.
Or listen to that guy and ignore me lol
but just so ya know I'm not crazy, without a house rule it can't be done.
That depends on how you read the entry. In almost every version of the erratas out there (every one of them I've read, at least), there is a passage that says something akin to 'Text trumps table, where the two disagree'.
If you look at the entry for (for example), Brilliant Energy weapons, you see the following (bolded for emphasis):
Brilliant Energy
A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition.
If you look at the entry for wounding...
Wounding
A wounding weapon deals 1 point of Constitution damage from blood loss when it hits a creature. A critical hit does not multiply the Constitution damage. Creatures immune to critical hits (such as plants and constructs) are immune to the Constitution damage dealt by this weapon.
Moderate evocation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, mage’s sword; Price +2 bonus.
You see nothing of the sort.
While wounding is in none of the 'ranged weapon properties' tables (in either the DMG or MIC), there is nothing in the actual text of the property that prevents you from adding it to a ranged weapon, by RAW.
After a review of the ability, I’d say the only troubling thing is the omission of the phrase “bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the property upon their ammunition.” There is a difference between being able to apply the quality to a ranged weapon and being able to gain a benefit from applying the quality to a ranged weapon.