Builds:
Bear Warrior Chameleon:
Rogue 3/Barbarian 2/Chameleon 7/Bear Warrior 7/Horizon Walker 1 - note, due to the +4 stat bonus, he has +20 Str, just like the bear warrior dire form.
Dervish Chameleon:
Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Chameleon 7/Dervish 7/Horizon Walker 1:
+10 to hit, +8 damage, +4 to AC when Dervish dancing.
Frenzied Berserker Chameleon:
Barbarian 2/Cleric 1(Trickery/War)/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10/Frenzied Berserker 5
Does Divine Meta Persistent Divine Power and has a +12 Strength when Frenzied.
Justiciar Tank Chameleon:
Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Justiciar 6/Chameleon 7/Horizon Walker 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1
Kensai Tank Chameleon:
Hexblade(or Paladin) 3/Fighter 2/Kensai 8/Chameleon 7
Puts Attribute Bonus onto Constitution, boosting Concentration check.
Master Thrower Chameleon
Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10/Master Thrower 5
Takes Weak Spot, Palm Throw, and Trip Shot
Mindspy Chameleon
Bard 4/Fighter 1/Chameleon 10/Mindspy 5
Get a helm of Telepathy
Spellsword Chameleon:
Bard 4/Fighter 1/Chameleon 10/Spellsword 5
Qualifies for Spellsword with Bard casting, but ASF reduction applies to Arcane Focus.
Chameleon Zen Archer Monks:
Ranger 2/Human Paragon 3/Cleric 1/Monk 2/Chameleon 10/OotBI 2
Rogue 1/Ranger 2/Cleric 1/Monk 2/Chameleon 10/Fighter 2/OotBI 2
Cloistered Cleric(Trickery Domain) 1/Ranger 2/Monk 2/Chameleon 10/Human Paragon 3/OotBI 2
Freaky high wisdom scores in combo with Zen Archery and Monk. DC 34-36 Stunning Fist, +14-6 to AC, Divine Metamagic
Chameleon Zen Archer Ninjas:
Ranger 2/Ninja 2/Cleric 1/Chameleon 10/OotBI 2/Human Paragon 3
Freaky high wisdom scores in combo with Zen Archery and Ninja. Turns Swift Invisible 14-16 times per day, Divine Metamagic
Stalker Rogues Chameleon:
Rogue 11/Ranger 2/Chameleon 7
Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Chameleon 7/Nightsong Enforcer 4/Exemplar 4
Rogue 4/Warlock 6/Chameleon 4/Nightsong Enforcer 6
Acts pretty much as your normal TWF Rogue. Note that gaining +4 Dex adds +2 to hit, AC, and +2 to 8 dex based skills, only one of which is not really a Rogue skill. So in essence, Chameleon is a 6 skill point per level class, not a 4 pt...
The Warlock one uses his invocations solely to be a better Rogue and can use the Chameleon bonus feat to pick useful least invocations out of a hat.
Nightsong Chameleon:
Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Chameleon 7/Nightsong Enforcer 8.
+17 BAB, +5d6 Sneak, Opportunist/Improved Evasion, Chameleon
Shadowbane Chameleon:
Rogue 1/Paladin 4/Chameleon 7/Shadowbane Inquisitor 8.
Spymaster Chameleon:
Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Chameleon 7/Spymaster 7.
Tempest Chameleon:
Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Justiciar 2/Chameleon 7/Horizon Walker 1/Tempest 5
Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Chameleon 4/Dervish 5/Horizon Walker 1/Tempest 5
Acrobat Chameleon:
Rogue 4/Cleric 1/Chameleon 10/Thief-Acrobat 5
UMD Tank Chameleon:
Barbarian 2/Warlock 4/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10/EWM 1/Horizon Walker 1
Take 10 with UMD at high levels...major issue is when to take Warlock 2-3. Early in the build makes it a really bizarre tank build at the lower levels(able to see invisible, deflects some ranged attacks, has DR 1/Cold Iron, but feats and hp aren't as good), but at the higher levels, makes it a lot easier to get that 4th level of Warlock and the resulting take 10 for UMD.
Potentially Broken Things
Changelings from Eberron with a +4 BAB qualify for Warshaper, which has Disguise as a class skill.
Illumians are technically 'human' and the Aeshkrau(str is bonus spell stat) and Uurkrau(dex is bonus spell stat) are extremely powerful with Chameleon.
Horizon Walker(Desert) is very useful for making Rage useful as it cancels fatigue, a problem with the real quick duration of Chameleon ability. Because of Able Learner, it isn't hard to qualify for the PrC by 13th level without needing Ranger levels.
Exemplar(CV) is useful for a 1 level Dip - gives Skill Mastery(for UMD in particular) and makes all skills class skills.
Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow is useful for any strength-based build, as their ability to add a decent bonus to strength makes them powerful here.
1 level of Bard, Rogue, Cleric(Trickery Domain), Ninja(CV), Warlock(CA) and Psion (Shaper) can qualify for the class by 6th level. Bloodhound(CV), Justiciar and Assassin have Bluff and Disguise as class skills without having difficult entry requirements. With the feat City Slicker, Hexblade, Marshal, Spellthief(CV), Swashbuckler and Psion (Telepath), Wilder, and Sorcerer can qualify. With the feat Draconic Heritage(Silver Dragon), Sorcerer can qualify.
The major goals seem to be:
Gain +16 BAB or higher and do Combat/Arcane Foci
Go +15 BAB or lower, get the ability to Turn outside of Chameleon, and get Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell). Then Combat/Divine Foci.
Core Spells at Lower than Normal Levels:
Bard:
1st: Undetectable Alignment
2nd: Heroism, Suggestion, Tongues
3rd: Charm Monster, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Good Hope, Scrying
4th: Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Legend Lore
5th: Greater Dispel Magic, Shadowwallk, Mass Suggestion
6th: Mass Charm Monster, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Greater Scrying, Project Image, Greater Shout
Paladin:
1st: Lesser Restoration
2nd: -
3rd: Discern Lies, Greater Magic Weapon
4th: -
Ranger:
1st: Delay Poison, Resist Energy, Embrace the Wild(CV)
2nd: Protection from Energy, Speak with Plants
3rd: -
4th: Animal Growth, Commune with Nature, Tree Stride
Adept - Very cool divine list!:
1st: Burning Hands, Sleep
2nd: Scorching Ray, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Web
3rd: Lightning Bolt
4th: Polymorph, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire
5th: Commune, Heal, Major Creation, True Seeing
Hexblade:
1st: Tasha's Hideous Laughter
2nd:
3rd:
4th: Baleful Polymorph
Interesting Persistable Spells:
Arrowmind: 1st level Ranger Spell(CV)
Haste, Swift: 2nd level Ranger Spell(CV)
Listening Lorecall: 2nd level Ranger/Druid(CV)
How to learn all the spells you want:
Take the Extra Spell feat, write the spell in your spellbook. Change your feat the next day. Even works with Divine spells that you want to cast with your Arcane Focus. From NineInchNall.
Catharz's Useful Spells
Useful Dips for the first 5 levels
Hexblade 3: Mettle, Arcane Resistance
Monk 2: Evasion, 3 feats, saves
Rogue 3: Evasion, +2d6 Sneak
Ranger 3: Endurance, 2 other feats, saves
Fighter 2: Feats
Cleric 1: Turning, possibly feats, possibly necessary class skills
Paladin 4: Divine Grace, Turning
Bard 4: 2nd level casting with +3 BAB
Barbarian 2: Actual Rage(for Rage feats), Uncanny Dodge
Marshal 1,3,5: Motivate Attributes can be very powerful.
these are also ways for early entry into Chameleon.
:D
Rogue-1 / Hexblade-3 / Rogue-1 / Chameleon-10 / Occult Slayer-5
Rogue-1 / Hexblade-3 / Rogue-1 / Chameleon-10 / Warmind-5
I like the Rogue-2 / Hexblade-3 combo for Evasion + Mettle. IMO Occult Slayer and Warmind are both good follow-ups for Chameleon.
Occult Slayer has some nice immunities at 4th & 5th level that really would add to the Chameleon mistique and make it harder for foes to figure out what they are dealing with.
Warmind would give access to a few Psionic powers and the nice Sweeping Strike ability. Plus 3/day each the character could futher bump Str+Con or AC by 2 in addition to the Chameleon bonuses.
to help your whole party
Synergy Monkey
Ranger 2/ Marshal 3/ Chameleon 10/ Master Thrower 5
Or
Ranger 2/ Bard 2/ Marshal 3/ Chameleon 8/ Master Thrower 5
or
Marshal 5/ Chameleon 10/ Master Thrower 5
Super Synergy Monkey
Marshal 7/ Master Thrower 5/ Chameleon 8
for more on these look here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=353356
:D
for a dip into Marshal , usually either 1, 3 or 5 levels are good, 3 level dip is usually best unless you are looking for more variety.
to start:
Ranger 2/ Marshal 1/ .............paladin 2 or fighter 2
Ranger 1/ Marshal 1/ swashbuckler 3
finish all these with
Master Thrower 5/ Chameleon 10
:D
human 1/2 fey phrenic warlock 6/ chameleon 10
flight, 20th lvl arcane and divine spells and eldritch blast
:D
:D
Rogue 1/Fighter 2/Monk 2/Master Thrower 5/Chameleon 10
Rogue 3/Marshall 1/Cleric 1/Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Chameleon 10/XXX1 (Cleric of Olidammara for Celerity domain for 50' base speed)
I know that's not the end of the world, but it is generally recognized that fighting builds either want +16 BAB or access to Divine Power.
Rogue 1/Fighter 2/Monk2/Invisible Blade 5/Chameleon 10.
Rogue 1/Fighter 2/Monk 2/Master Thrower 5/Chameleon 10
Show
Classes: Cloistered Cleric 1 / Paladin 4 / Chameleon 10 / Suel Archanamach 4 / Shiba Protector 1
Race: Human (Changeling or Shifter by DM approval, but note favoured class xp penalty)
Domains: Planning & Trickery (choosing no god as per PHB p32)
Ability Scores
28 point buy: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14
32 point buy: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 16
40 point buy: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 18
Rolled: Cha, Int (13+), Str (13+), Wis, Con, Dex
Level Progression
1: Cloistered Cleric 1, [Able Learner, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell]
2: Paladin 1
3: Paladin 2, [Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)]
4: Paladin 3, +1 CHA
5: Paladin 4
6: Chameleon 1, [Power Attack]
7: Chameleon 2
8: Chameleon 3, +1 CHA
9: Chameleon 4, [Combat Expertise]
10: Chameleon 5
11: Chameleon 6
12: Chameleon 7, [Iron Will], +1 CHA
13: Chameleon 8
14: Chameleon 9
15: Chameleon 10, [Combat Casting]
16: Suel Archanamach 1, +1 CHA
17: Suel Archanamach 2
18: Suel Archanamach 3, [Alertness]
19: Suel Archanamach 4
20: Shiba Protector, +1 CHA
Required Skills:
Bluff 8 ranks
Concentration 4 ranks
Disguise 8 ranks
Jump 4 ranks
Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks
Sense Motive 4 ranks
Spellcraft 5 ranks
Tumble 4 ranks
Race: Human (Changeling or Shifter by DM approval, but note favoured class xp penalty)
Domains: Planning & Trickery (choosing no god as per PHB p32)
Ability Scores
28 point buy: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14
32 point buy: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 16
40 point buy: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 18
Rolled: Cha, Int (13+), Str (13+), Wis, Con, Dex
Level Progression
1: Cloistered Cleric 1, [Able Learner, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell]
2: Paladin 1
3: Paladin 2, [Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)]
4: Paladin 3, +1 CHA
5: Paladin 4
6: Chameleon 1, [Power Attack]
7: Chameleon 2
8: Chameleon 3, +1 CHA
9: Chameleon 4, [Combat Expertise]
10: Chameleon 5
11: Chameleon 6
12: Chameleon 7, [Iron Will], +1 CHA
13: Chameleon 8
14: Chameleon 9
15: Chameleon 10, [Combat Casting]
16: Suel Archanamach 1, +1 CHA
17: Suel Archanamach 2
18: Suel Archanamach 3, [Alertness]
19: Suel Archanamach 4
20: Shiba Protector, +1 CHA
Required Skills:
Bluff 8 ranks
Concentration 4 ranks
Disguise 8 ranks
Jump 4 ranks
Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks
Sense Motive 4 ranks
Spellcraft 5 ranks
Tumble 4 ranks
Rogue 3 / Ranger 1/ Stoneblessed 3 / Deepwarden 2 / Chameleon 10 / Full BAB 1
for a meaty con-based chameleon build. unfortunately 15 BAB
I've been working on one as a BBEG for my campaign, but I'm not the best min-maxer
All the following features:
Functional Rogue. Once you tack in the +3 to all wisdom skills and the initial Rogue level, he's basically a 6+Int skill character). Can Track almost by default.
Cleric Archer who with either polymorph or just Persistent Divine Power can melee or fire off arrows. Very high AC. 34 DC Stunning Fist in combo with Spiked Quarterstaff can do lots of hurt. Yet he's more mobile than the typical Cleric Archer.
While only able to cast 6th level spells, his 38 Wisdom at 20th level makes his spells DC competitive. He can also use Shugenja or Druid spells for 'Wizard' use.
Lots of feats, about 17 or so. Some not so great, but 17 feats is 17 feats.
Great Saves: +20/11/15 before stats. Could in theory be a +24 Fort if Combat/Divine bonuses stack - they're not specifically listed as being competence bonuses.
Has anyone managed to make a super jack of all trades chameleon? I've yet to see a build that specifically plays off of the chameleon's flexibility...
I know that's not the end of the world, but it is generally recognized that fighting builds either want +16 BAB or access to Divine Power.
Doesn't every Chameleon build have Divine Power though?
Meta-items:
1 level of Bard, Rogue, and Cleric(Trickery Domain) can qualify for the class by 6th level. Justiciar and Assassin have Bluff and Disguise as class skills. With the feat City Slicker, Hexblade, Marshal, Swashbuckler and Sorcerer can qualify.
As Jens posted you should add Psion (Shaper) to the list of bases classes that can qualify you for Chameleon by taking just one level as it has both Bluff and Disguise as class skills.
Also Warlock, Psion (Telepath), and Wilder can also qualify with City Slicker since they have Bluff as a class skill.
Too lazy to read though the rest of the PrCs right now. ;)
Doesn't every Chameleon build have Divine Power though?
The Melee Chameleon
Cleric (planning & trickery) 1 / Paladin of Slaughter 4 / Chameleon 10 / Suel Archanamach 4 / xxxx 1
The Trickery domain enables this character to qualify for the Chameleon PrC. This character has access to Arcane Strike and three persistent clerical buffs of choice. Nuff said!
No it does not. You can not use any of what you gain from aptitude focus to qualify for anything. You do not have the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells outside of aptitude focus arcane, and as such can not take arcane strike no ifs ands or buts. Please people read the chameleon from beginning to end before building with it. It has quite a few limitations built in to make it fair.
Rogue 1/Ex-Monk 1/Paladin of Freedom 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Chameleon 10/Rogue 2-3/Marshall 1/Ranger 2
This only works with a high point buy (for Int, Wis, and Cha). Helps if you can use the UA variants Feat Rogue, Wilderness Rogue, and Cobra Strike Monk, in addition to the Paladin of Freedom and Cloistered Cleric listed above. Enough feats for Persistant Divine Power and full mounted combat tree.
acvar..... Suel Archanamach 4 has 3rd level arcane spells and qualifies for arcane strike.
Then again, of course, I would opt to take Doppelganger full on and accept the level adjustment. Main reason being is that the Doppelganger works better w/o a party to back it. I've taken a Doppelganger character that I've played once before and successfully made my way through an entire army encampment untouched but in the meantime, I took down the whole camp's leadership. I think that this PrC offers A LOT to the Doppelganger or even the Changeling (from Eberron; it's kinda like the Doppelganger's little cousin).
Any thoughts on a Doppelganger inclusive Chameleon build?
Any thoughts on a Doppelganger inclusive Chameleon build?
For a Doppelganger I like Mindspy.
For a Doppelganger I like Mindspy.
mindspy bonuses are worthless
Mindspy allows you to Detect Thoughts in a spherical pattern...in other words, no more suprises. How is that worthless again?
Marshal 1/ Monk 2/ Favored Soul 2/ Jordain Vizier 5/ Chameleon 10
this gives very interesting ability to do things with Int and Wis based skills, you get to Double your Int and Wis Bonuses and add your Cha to either Int or Wis based skills. and you can Counter spell without using spells.
jordain vizier is a strange class but Chameleon Makes it worth it. also gets bonus to attack and damage and AC.
the main problem is getting JV first before you go Chameleon....but it can be done.
saves are great....+10/+12/+13......without ADDing the aptitude bonus +4 to ALL or the attribute bonuses.
A build for melee combat:
Zen Melee Chameleon
Ranger 1/ Paladin 2/ Monk2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Shou Disciple 5/ Chameleon 7
BAB +17
evasion,Flurry with ALL weapons,Great unarmed damage,good saves,cast Arcane and divine spells
:D
A lot of that I think is more dependent on what skills you pick, but I think the Rogue Zen Archer Monk build(Rogue 1/Ranger 2/Cleric 1/Monk 2/Chameleon 10/Fighter 2/OotBI 2) falls into that ballpark. The eventual 38 Wisdom adds to AC, to hit, DCs of spells and stunning fist, Will Saves, etc...
All the following features:
Functional Rogue. Once you tack in the +3 to all wisdom skills and the initial Rogue level, he's basically a 6+Int skill character). Can Track almost by default.
Cleric Archer who with either polymorph or just Persistent Divine Power can melee or fire off arrows. Very high AC. 34 DC Stunning Fist in combo with Spiked Quarterstaff can do lots of hurt. Yet he's more mobile than the typical Cleric Archer.
While only able to cast 6th level spells, his 38 Wisdom at 20th level makes his spells DC competitive. He can also use Shugenja or Druid spells for 'Wizard' use.
Lots of feats, about 17 or so. Some not so great, but 17 feats is 17 feats.
Great Saves: +20/11/15 before stats. Could in theory be a +24 Fort if Combat/Divine bonuses stack - they're not specifically listed as being competence bonuses.
can you give more of an in deepth working of the Zen archey clerical Chameleon (feats and stuff???)
as i might use that build in Living greyHawk
max 16th level and 25 or 28 pts buy
tks
gregoire
effects. also works with high wisdom......clerics main casting attribute..and Monk abilities based on wisdom.
:D
Arcane Archer Chameleon
Ranger 2/ Fighter 2/ swashbuckler 3/ Wizard 1/ Arcane Archer 2/ Chameleon 10
BAB +16
saves FRW +12/+12/+5
can imbue area effect spells ....Even "antimagic field" into his arrows
6th lvl arcane and divine spells 20th lvl caster
when in melee ADDs Int to damage and dex to attack with rapier
main Attributes.....Dex and Int, wisdom needs to be 16 minimum
or try this
Holy Arcane Archer Chameleon
Ranger 2/ swashbuckler 1/ Fighter 2/ Wizard 1/Soldier of light 2/ Arcane Archer 2/ Chameleon 10
can use divine metamagic...for persistant Buffs
also Cha to all Saves
both have good skills
:D
Are you actually allowed to use Races of Destiny in Living Greyhawk?
can you give more of an in deepth working of the Zen archey clerical Chameleon (feats and stuff???)
as i might use that build in Living greyHawk
max 16th level and 25 or 28 pts buy
tks
gregoire
Could do it with flaws, I think.
heres a fun one:
Arcane Archer Chameleon
Ranger 2/ Fighter 2/ swashbuckler 3/ Wizard 1/ Arcane Archer 2/ Chameleon 10
Holy Arcane Archer Chameleon
Ranger 2/ swashbuckler 1/ Fighter 2/ Wizard 1/Soldier of light 2/ Arcane Archer 2/ Chameleon 10
Which of course, opens up a whole boatload of spell options for Chameleons who chose the divine spellcaster option.
Behold:
- Divine Crusaders (pg. 33-34 BoED) cast divine spells. By definition, they can only cast 9 spells total (unless augmented by a feat or external class mechanic that gives them additional cleric domains). Hence, they have a "spell list" to chose from.
- Pg. 34 states under spells per day, [i]"...Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells (one per spell level). If the word "effectively" throws you off, you can eliminate it. But since we see with our own bare eyes that DivCru's do in fact cast spells, they *have* to have a spell list else they be able to cast whatever the hell they want. So by definition, DivCru's *have* a spell list, and have to have written parameters that detail that lists contents. Which of course, is detailed in the quote I gave you above. If "effectively" ruins the parameter setting of the DivCru's spell list description for you, too bad. It's all it has for a decription of a game mechanic that is neccessary for its spellcasting capability to work as described in its text and tables.
- How does this apply to this thread? DOMAIN SPELLS. Cham's with divine spellcasting option activated can cast them. Go hog wild and chose whatever the hell you want (within 1st through 6th level spells) from the domains listed in Complete Divine, PGtF, Eberron, OA, etc.
- Which also leads me to the beauty and wonder of the Spell Domain's Anyspell and Greater Anyspell spells. Your Cham has a spellbook anyway, right? For her arcane spellcasting option that is. Now via divine spellcasting options, you can get the benefits of no ACP while still being able to cast the equivalent of 1st through 5th level arcane spells. Something that the vice-versa situation, cannot accomplish. The Spell Domain is the solution here.
Whee!
Snow
Divine Crusader, the class, doesn't have a spell list of all domains or for that matter a spell list. Individual members of the class gain spell lists effectively by picking a domain.
The word that messes your argument up is the word 'a' in 'a divine crusader'
Now I'm back with my books. So ... does a given Divine Crusader's (Comp. Divine book) spell list comprise only 9 spells from a given and chosen domain? Yes. And my argument is that by the RAW, a Cham can cast all cleric domain spells in interpretation of their unique divine spellcasting mechanics.
I was thinking these were really great...but...Arcane Archers have to be elven, and you don't get two feats at 1st level to get both Able Learner and Human Heritage.
Could do it with flaws, I think.
sorry about that, yes that was what i was thinking but forgot to write it down,they would be 1/2 elfs with flaws for it to work.
The Chamel-O-ficer
Ranger 2/ Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 1/ Artificer 8/ Chameleon 8
BAB +16
lots of feats
5th lvl arcane and divine spells
20th lvl caster(with practised caster)
artificer goodies
:D
Greyhawk is a little more difficult as you don't get the free feats that you get from Faerun domains. But Feats are whatever feats you'd normally take when making your favorite Cleric Archer build who uses Divine Metamagic(Persistent). Make starting Wisdom 16 and always level it up.
Are you actually allowed to use Races of Destiny in Living Greyhawk?
aye race of Destiny is usable in living greyHawk but not the presistant feat; its 28 pts buy and level 16 max.
so do you think the Zen Cam is still worth it?
(magic enh are rather scares as well as gold)
tks
gregoire
The wording on Chameleon is 'may be chosen from the spell list of any divine spellcasting class'
Divine Crusader, the class, doesn't have a spell list of all domains or for that matter a spell list. Individual members of the class gain spell lists effectively by picking a domain.
The word that messes your argument up is the word 'a' in 'a divine crusader'
Look at your quote that I bolded above. By your definition, DivCru does not have a Spell List. When in fact, it does. If it did not, the DrivCru either: (A) Could not cast any spells ... or (B) Could cast *ALL* the spells in the game. Embedded within its Spell List (which is a consistent 3.5 rule parameter), is a sub-routine 'choice mechanic'. Granted, 'choice mechanic' is *not* an official game term. But since we are talking about a gray area of 3.5 game design (which typically consists of mechanics, data tables, and exception clauses), we have to use existing examples of 3.5 combinatorial design components to extrapolate just how this critter works.
By Cham's declaration of " ... may be chosen from the spell list of any divine spellcasting class ... ", the Cham has access to the Spell List of the DivCru. And as a result, Cham has access to its unique and inchoate choice mechanic. Cham's specific wording gives you entry into "spell list" game design components.
So yeah ... the Chameleon can cast Domain Spells. If you follow this line of extrapolated logic. If it matters, there's no defined rule that says this is wrong (I know ... proving a negative).
If someone wants to ask the book's author to clarify, I'll accept those results regardless. If you wanna ask CustServ, you best ask them on 5 different inquiries. If all 5 match "exactly" - bingo.
Whoo!
Snow
If all 5 match "exactly" - bingo.
Yeah, bingo, use the inverse of what they told you.
aye race of Destiny is usable in living greyHawk but not the presistant feat; its 28 pts buy and level 16 max.
so do you think the Zen Cam is still worth it?
(magic enh are rather scares as well as gold)
tks
gregoire
Each member of the class then gets to add 9 spells to this list for their personal set of spells known based on their domain choice. Which is really little different than how a Wizard who takes Arcane Disciple or gains a domain gets to add 9 spells to their own spell list.
Look at your quote that I bolded above. By your definition, DivCru does not have a Spell List. When in fact, it does. If it did not, the DrivCru either: (A) Could not cast any spells ... or (B) Could cast *ALL* the spells in the game.
i ran the rules by my bro who is an english teacher and gamer. he agrees with snow that its a gray area but every spelcaster HAS to have a spell list. divine crusader has its spell list although its got a different way of working. we have a divine crusader in our party thats why im interested.
I'm not arguing here that an individual Divine Crusader doesn't have a spell list(though I actually think that's the intent of the word effectively)
I'm arguing that they don't have a class spell list - there's no spell that all Divine Crusaders can cast. Chameleons can only cast off of class spell lists.
You just supported my argument, MwaO.
As your quoted last sentence stated, " ... Chameleons can only cast off of class spell lists. " ...... which means your "individual" prefix argument on DivCru's spell list parameters doesn't apply. Because *some* DivCru's can cast a given domain spell while some can't. Chameleons don't care, they can simulate all or any divine or arcane spellcaster's spell list. And that's that.
Besides, the basic premise of the Chameleon is to emulate or copycat other classes "class abilities", including a *HUGE* breadth of different spellcaster "spell lists". Why would a given Cham be able to simultaneously emulate spell class access to classes as rare and specialized as a Demonologist (BoVD) and Champion of Gwynharyf (BoED) ... but not domain spells ?? Of course, this paragraph is more a fluff issue, than a crunch one.
XO,
Snow
Thanks.
I'm not arguing here that an individual Divine Crusader doesn't have a spell list(though I actually think that's the intent of the word effectively)
I'm arguing that they don't have a class spell list - there's no spell that all Divine Crusaders can cast. Chameleons can only cast off of class spell lists.
That seems to be like arguing that sorcerers don't have a spell list becuase there is no spell all sorcerers can cast. All sorcerers can choose any spell on their list, just as a Divine Crusader can choose any domain.
That seems to be like arguing that sorcerers don't have a spell list becuase there is no spell all sorcerers can cast. All sorcerers can choose any spell on their list, just as a Divine Crusader can choose any domain.
you also need to ADD this to your first post.
Warlocks get disguise and bluff as class skills
heres another build:
The Dark Chameleon
Warlock 8/ Chameleon 8..................the first/last 4 levels can be any full BAB class
+16 BAB
4d6 Eldrich Blast
DR, Fast Heal 1
cast 5th lvl spls
Caster lvl 20th (with practiced caster)
take 10 on UMD
:D
XO,
Snow
He's a secondary caster, sure, but 6th level spells with a 26 DC base at 20th caster level at 15th level is quite scary(or for that matter the 27 DC Stunning Fist with some Freezing the Lifeblood)
Hmm... something just occured to me. It says in the chameleon class description that he has a caster level of twice his class level. Does that mean that a Rogue 3/Ftr 2/Chameleon 10 has a caster level of 20 at character level 15? If it does - whoa.
Well, I'd defintely go for Chameleon, but I'd likely focus on more of a Combat/Arcane Focus. Heroism is a great spell with a Rod of Extend Spell for the Chameleon - +2 to skills, saves, and attack rolls is pretty useful.
using Complete, Divine,Warrior,Arcana, PHB what would you say is the best entrery for cham by level 6?
rogue3/War2
swas 3 / cleric 2
or some other combination with a 28pts buy?
tks
gregoire
The major thing is that Chameleon is not really an independent build class. The goal is to mimic a normal build that does what you want to do. If you want to be the toughest fighter in all the land, the Hexblade 3/Fighter 2/Kensai 8/Chameleon 7 is pretty nasty. Just take things like Combat Brute and Shock Trooper, exactly the kinds of feats that a normal tank takes. Or if you want that build to be the battlefield control expert, pick up the feats that a Spiked chain build would take.
I'd say the overall best entry by level 6 is Rogue 3/Fighter 2. Flexible, useful, able to dump charisma to 8.
using Complete, Divine,Warrior,Arcana, PHB what would you say is the best entrery for cham by level 6?
rogue3/War2
swas 3 / cleric 2
or some other combination with a 28pts buy?
tks
gregoire
A lot of that I think is more dependent on what skills you pick, but I think the Rogue Zen Archer Monk build(Rogue 1/Ranger 2/Cleric 1/Monk 2/Chameleon 10/Fighter 2/OotBI 2) falls into that ballpark. The eventual 38 Wisdom adds to AC, to hit, DCs of spells and stunning fist, Will Saves, etc...
I am trying to learn more about the Chameleon.. how do you get to the 38 wisdom?
Start 18, ability boon +6, books +5, ability bonus +5, item +6...
Is that right? That's 40 total. That assumes you max out everything on wisdom.
so like this:
16 base
+5 levels
+5 inherent(tomes or wishes)
+6 item
+6 ability boon
.....................
38 total
Artificer [Ebr] 5/Ardent dilettante [Pln] 1/Chameleon [RoD] 7
along the same lines as my Chamel-O-ficer:post #37
Ranger 2/ Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 1/ Artificer 8/ Chameleon 8
the only drawback is ......you need to take Able Learner at 1st lvl ,IIRC it can only be taken at 1st lvl
Well, he can gain max (class) ranks in every single skill in the game, at 1-to-1 cost.
How is this possible? Able learner doesn't make every skill a class skill.
no,...but Ardent Dillettante PrC does....it is a very nice PrC in the Planar Handbook :D
Oooh.. cool trick. Must get that book.
Oooh.. cool trick. Must get that book.
Cloistered Cleric 1/Scout 5/Chameleon 7/Scout +4/Highland Stalker 3
The aim here is 4th level ranger spells for Arrow Storm, 1st level sorc/wizard spells for Tenser's Floating Disc, combining with Skirmish +4d6, Persistant Divine Metamagic, and whatever other spells you have (5th level arcane spells, only a few level one spells used, knock yourself out).
Make it a half-decent Zen Archery build by swapping one level of Highland stalker for a level of monk like so:
Cloistered Cleric 1/Monk 1/Scout 3/Chameleon 7/Scout +2/Highland stalker 2/Scout +4
Thanks.
Can anyone please post what able learner does?
I can't post the original feat, it's against the boards rules. The gist of the feat is that allows you to spend 1 point for a skill, even if it is a cross class skill. Cross-class maximums still apply. There are restrictions in it's use.
Thanks
Rog3/swashb3/Chameleon10/warshaper4
BAB: 2+3+7+3=15 .... hmm...
what about:
ninja3/swash3/cham7/warshaper4/hexblade3
BAB: 3+3+5+3+3=17
Either one of the builds is immune to criticals, has fast healing, INT to damage, +4 STR, +4 CON, +2d6 SA, plus chameleon boons.
will changling qualify for Chameleon?..........IIRC, isnt it only Human or Doppelganger only?
In the Web preview:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b
it says:
If you're using the Eberron Campaign Setting, the chameleon prestige class should be available to changeling player characters as well as humans and doppelgangers.
:D
I think the right build is:
Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Warshaper 4/Chameleon 10/Exotic Weapon Master 1/+1 level of BAB class
Swashbuckler provides bluff, Warshaper gives Disguise...
Bonuses before using stats...
To hit = +9 without spells
To damage = +14+Int
Changeling:
Rog3/swashb3/Chameleon10/warshaper4
BAB: 2+3+7+3=15 .... hmm...
what about:
ninja3/swash3/cham7/warshaper4/hexblade3
BAB: 3+3+5+3+3=17
Psion 10 / Chameleon 10
5th lvl powers with 10th(14th practiced manifester) manifester lvl
6th lvl Arcane spells 20th lvl caster........any arcane
6th lvl Divine spells 20th lvl caster.........any divine
:D
Well, that splits it to two builds, the Human (with both feats) and the Illumian (with only Able learner).
I prefer the Illumian. With the floating Cham feat, you can use Master arcane artisan [PGtF?] for every single item creation feat that you already have. And for Staff/Rod/Wand, you still get Legendary and Extraordinary.
Here is a vital (as soon as can be created, at all levels) EQ list, in order of importance:
Tome of ancient lore [CD] (2 lb, UMD DC 29/25, 22,000 gp, 8,250 gp + 660 xp Incl. Legendary+Extraordinary).
Circlet of persuasion ((Bonus^2)*500 gp).
Homunculus (Dedicated wright, 1575 gp + 120 xp Incl. "").
Portable hole (20,000 gp, 7,500 gp + 600 xp Incl "").
A Dorje of Psychic reformation is very nice too.
Not every DM is going to let you use the Circlet's pricing scheme, some may allow only the +3.
How did I arrive at the equation? It provides skill bonuses. Each skill bonus is priced at (Bonus^2)*100 gp, so I squared the normal bonus (3) and divided the marked preice by that amount (for 500 gp, which seems reasonable). Balance the Persuasion bonus with a Cha enhancement bonus.
Why is the EQ important?
Make an alchemical lab in the hole, and leave your Homunculus in it. You now have a portable magic item factory.
The Circlet of persuasion should be obvious. All of your most important skills are Cha-based.
The Tome of ancient lore is a money and time-saving device, and just cool. Once you have it, you don't need a Spellbook. Every single arcane spell, from every single class list is in there.
Sure, there is a 10% failure rate on finding the spells, but that just adds a bit of spice. And you can prep arcane spells in 1/2 time (1/4 time with a Ring of meditation, there is no division rule).
How do you use it? UMD DC 29 if you're a pretend cleric, 25 if you're crafty and act like a Blighter or Ur-priest.
How do you create it? You need True believer and Sanctify relic, one of which can be done by the Chameleon floating feat. I would actually take Sanctify relic, which lets you be pragmatic with True believer and make other relics too. Of course, the best is probalbly to just get your hands on a Dorje of Psychic reformation.
Having the Tome will save you literally thousands of GP. Even if your DM is nice and allows "casts as a wizard" to mean that you get to scribe 2 free spells/level.
With a starting Dex of 16 and a +6 enhancement bonus (Dex: 29 = 16+3+4+6), spells per day at level 13 are as follows:
Infusions: 1:6/2:5/3:3.
Arcane spells: 0:4/1:7/2:6/3:6/4:4/5:2.
Divine spells: 0:4/1:7/2:6/3:6/4:4/5:2.
Some good infusions to cast are Personal weapon augmentation, Resistance item, Skill enhancement (UMD, etc), Spell storing item, Metamagic item, Power surge, and Supress requirement (For BoED Relics especially).
Due to Psi/magic transperency, Power surge may affect Dorjes, which would be nice.
At least in one thing: the caster level should be MAX. the character level. In my game I'll use this option.
More thoughts:
-the wild and stealth focus are very weak compared to the others
-the aptitude bonus should be +3 at 5th level and +4 at 10th.
-a feat "more aptitude focus a day" would be nice
-I think the combat focus should be +2(+4) bonus to the attack roll but not to the dmg roll.
A question: I have only the preview version of the chameleon class. Did they change anything in tthe book?
Did I mention my next character will be a chameleon :D
(rouge4/cleric of Olidammara1(Luck, celerity)/Chameleon10)
one more question:
As a cleric I have 3+cha bonus turn undead ability. Can I use these to enhance my chameleon spells (the divine) with divine metamagic?
Thanks
ninja3/swash3/cham7/warshaper4/hexblade3
BAB: 3+3+5+3+3=17
Nice, but note that the Complete Adventurer update of ninja nerfs it. It gives sudden strike (sneak attack that you can't use while flanking) and medium BAB. Your build will also have XP penalties for multi-classing unless you take hexblade up at the same time as your other two classes.
Nice, but note that the Complete Adventurer update of ninja nerfs it. It gives sudden strike (sneak attack that you can't use while flanking) and medium BAB. Your build will also have XP penalties for multi-classing unless you take hexblade up at the same time as your other two classes.
Well, it is just a different Ninja or does it specifically state that it replaces the Rokugan PrC?
Two slight problems however:
1) I doubt the GM will allow me to use Persistant Divine Metamagic to persistify spells that woudl break the metamagic cap (IE: No Persistant Divine Power for me)
2) Someone else in the group is going Sublime Chord/Fochlucan Lyrist, meaning we will already have a better bard than me so the Spellsword Chameleon isn't perfect for me.
I'm thus looking for a +16 BAB build that includes Chameleon 10, preferably ASF reduction, and any other goodies that can be snuck in allong the way. Ideas?
@Sisyfos: I don't know exactly. I heard from this post here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5245028&postcount=2
Swashbuckler 3/ ranger 2/ Chameleon 7
BAB +10
+4 to any ability score
Cast 5th lvl Arcane and Divine spells at 14th caster lvl
weapon finnesse(rapier) with Int to damage
wear twilight mithral chain shirt for 0 ASF
:D
My original plan was Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Chameleon 7 so that I could find traps (and track, and sneak-attack) without resorting to the stealth focus, but I suppose that if I want some other spells in there then I'll need to take a BAB hit.
Maybe take a hint from MustafaHazaraKhan's Melee Chameleon and take Suel Arcanamach 4 for the 3rd level spells, finishing on any full-bab class (spellsword/dragonslayer for extra SA casting although I don't think the ignore ASF stacks, Horizon-walker for the desert mastery, or anything else with nice synergies with the rest of my abilities).
Swashbuckler 3/ ranger 2/ Chameleon 10/ Master thrower 5 or invisible blade 5
BAB +17
:D
Well, it is just a different Ninja or does it specifically state that it replaces the Rokugan PrC?
I don't think that the OGL allows WotC to supercede a 3rd party publication.
The Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2 start shouldn't work out that well in practice - using up 2 feats at level 1(Able Learner, City Slicker) is pretty expensive.
Maybe take a hint from MustafaHazaraKhan's Melee Chameleon and take Suel Arcanamach 4 for the 3rd level spells, finishing on any full-bab class (spellsword/dragonslayer for extra SA casting although I don't think the ignore ASF stacks, Horizon-walker for the desert mastery, or anything else with nice synergies with the rest of my abilities).
and by using ranger you only lose 10 skill points, but gain wild empathy and track and 1 more feat
:D
Combat option: As is, but lets people taking the Divine Option to use the Paladin spell list and Arcane to use the Hexblade spell list.
Stealth option gives +1d6 Sneak, then +2d6 Sneak. Allows someone taking the Arcane option to cast Bard spells. Allows someone taking the Divine Option to cast spells from the Trickery and Luck Domains.
Wild option gives TWF, then ITWF or Rapid Shot, Many Shot - no prereqs. Allows someone taking the Divine Option to cast Druid and Ranger spells. Allows someone taking the Arcane Option to add the spells from the Animal and Plant domains to the Wiz/Sorc list.
Divine Option lets you cast Cleric spells only.
Arcane Option lets you cast Wiz/Sorc spells only.
Finally, max caster level of Chameleon is character level and I'd switch the +4 to attributes to level 8.
Does a couple of things:
Prevents characters from cherry picking odd PrC spell lists.
Enhances the value of the non-spellcasting foci.
Doesn't make level 7 such a monster.
I think the Chameleon should be errated....
At least in one thing: the caster level should be MAX. the character level. In my game I'll use this option.
More thoughts:
-the wild and stealth focus are very weak compared to the others
-the aptitude bonus should be +3 at 5th level and +4 at 10th.
-a feat "more aptitude focus a day" would be nice
-I think the combat focus should be +2(+4) bonus to the attack roll but not to the dmg roll.
I'd do the following to improve the balance of Chameleon:
Combat option: As is, but lets people taking the Divine Option to use the Paladin spell list and Arcane to use the Hexblade spell list.
Stealth option gives +1d6 Sneak, then +2d6 Sneak. Allows someone taking the Arcane option to cast Bard spells. Allows someone taking the Divine Option to cast spells from the Trickery and Luck Domains.
Wild option gives TWF, then ITWF or Rapid Shot, Many Shot - no prereqs. Allows someone taking the Divine Option to cast Druid and Ranger spells. Allows someone taking the Arcane Option to add the spells from the Animal and Plant domains to the Wiz/Sorc list.
Divine Option lets you cast Cleric spells only.
Arcane Option lets you cast Wiz/Sorc spells only.
Finally, max caster level of Chameleon is character level and I'd switch the +4 to attributes to level 8.
Does a couple of things:
Prevents characters from cherry picking odd PrC spell lists.
Enhances the value of the non-spellcasting foci.
Doesn't make level 7 such a monster.
In my opinion Chameleons aren't that powerful until level 12+ (cham level 7). Double aptitude just rocks. I too think that the spell level should be no more than character level. But limiting the spell list like you suggested would make the PrC worthless, IMO.
I'd do the following to improve the balance of Chameleon:
Combat option: As is, but lets people taking the Divine Option to use the Paladin spell list and Arcane to use the Hexblade spell list.
Stealth option gives +1d6 Sneak, then +2d6 Sneak. Allows someone taking the Arcane option to cast Bard spells. Allows someone taking the Divine Option to cast spells from the Trickery and Luck Domains.
Wild option gives TWF, then ITWF or Rapid Shot, Many Shot - no prereqs. Allows someone taking the Divine Option to cast Druid and Ranger spells. Allows someone taking the Arcane Option to add the spells from the Animal and Plant domains to the Wiz/Sorc list.
Divine Option lets you cast Cleric spells only.
Arcane Option lets you cast Wiz/Sorc spells only.
Hmm...I like this idea. Maybe I wouldn't grant the extra feats like sneak attacks and TWF.
Amongst the double aptitudes the combat+divine(or arcana) focus are the most overpowered so it's good to allow only 4th level spells. (I think I will use this mod.)
In my opinion Chameleons aren't that powerful until level 12+ (cham level 7). Double aptitude just rocks. I too think that the spell level should be no more than character level. But limiting the spell list like you suggested would make the PrC worthless, IMO.
With combat and divine focus the Chameleon between 12th and 15th level can beat ANY class. (unless the other broken classes
) I think this could make the class worthless Honestly, I think you really underestimate just how powerful this class is when you make statements about limiting the spell list. At level 10, they're quite likely to be able to cast persistent Divine Power on top of a mostly Fighter build.
Barbarian 4/Cleric 1(Trickery)/Chameleon 5 with +2 put onto Wis, who casts Persistent or Quickened Divine Power is going to destroy most straight warrior builds(including your Dwarf Deepwarden). They'll have similar hit points, better strength, similar AC, and then they're still roughly a 7th level cleric in spell capability who casts as a 10th level caster. As long as they start with say a 14 Wisdom and have a +2 Wisdom item, they're set. Very straightforward build, too that will get into most games that play max of 2 core classes and 1 prestige class without drawing the red flags that it ought to.
In my opinion Chameleons aren't that powerful until level 12+ (cham level 7). Double aptitude just rocks. I too think that the spell level should be no more than character level. But limiting the spell list like you suggested would make the PrC worthless, IMO.
try this:
Swashbuckler 3/ ranger 2/ Chameleon 10/ Master thrower 5 or invisible blade 5
BAB +16
Surely you mean BAB +17?
The same could be said for ending with many of the 5-level PrCs (or even some of the 3-level ones). IE: Tempest 5 for a two-weapon fighter, Reaping mauler 5 for a grappling master, Beastmaster 2/Wild Plains Outrider 3 (Share spells with your mount. 'Nuff said)
Still: They aren't perfect for builds emphasising the casting abilities of the chameleon.
Suel Arcanamach 2/Spellsword 3 would finish the build nicely, however, granting 4th level spells, ignore ASF 15 (Mithril chain shirt and a mithril large shield).
To be honest, I prefer the Rogue 3 version to the Swashbuckler 3 version (Evasion, 1 less feat, better skill points). That is, I woudl prefer it if it was possible to use it to get BAB+16 and some genuine arcane spells. Are there any classes with full bab and their own arcane spell progression? Blaggard (or some nonevil version from BoED) would do perfectly if it gave arcane rather than divine spells.
Human with the Otherworldly feat (Player's Guide to Feyrun)
Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Chameleon 10/Mortal-Hunter 5
Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Chameleon 10/Mortal-Hunter 4/Spellsword 1
BAB +16, 3rd level arcane spells for arcane strike and similar goodies.
Mortal-hunter is a nastily broken PrC from BoVD, The spells don't do much but the class abilities are awesome. The Spurn Mortal Magic and Mortal Skin (any) abilities at 5th level are particularily awesome which is why I considered not taking the level of spellsword.
The synergy between the chameleon abilities and the mortal hunter's ability to polymorph into those he kills is also interesting. (think about killing someone and pretending to be them) The only real shame is in the feat requirements which require one wasted feat (mortalbane) and one sub-optimal feat (alertness).
You're entitled to your opinion. I on the other hand think Persistent Haste, Swift by level 7 is quite powerful...
Honestly, I think you really underestimate just how powerful this class is when you make statements about limiting the spell list. At level 10, they're quite likely to be able to cast persistent Divine Power on top of a mostly Fighter build.
Barbarian 4/Cleric 1(Trickery)/Chameleon 5 with +2 put onto Wis, who casts Persistent or Quickened Divine Power is going to destroy most straight warrior builds(including your Dwarf Deepwarden). They'll have similar hit points, better strength, similar AC, and then they're still roughly a 7th level cleric in spell capability who casts as a 10th level caster. As long as they start with say a 14 Wisdom and have a +2 Wisdom item, they're set. Very straightforward build, too that will get into most games that play max of 2 core classes and 1 prestige class without drawing the red flags that it ought to.
Yes, you can break the chameleon when you use broken combos.
That doesn't mean that limiting their spell list is the answer: Every combo you just listed would be usable with your 'improved' version.
And for me, limiting the spell list would take a lot of the fun out of the class (Not it's potential to walk the cleric's footsteps.)
While the fun of cherry-picking every single spell list might go out the window, the PrC as a whole would turn from pick Combat Focus and your fav of the two caster ones would lead to a very flexible PrC who would be constantly changing archetypes depending on mood.
I personally think that version would be a lot more fun to play
That doesn't mean that limiting their spell list is the answer: Every combo you just listed would be usable with your 'improved' version.
And for me, limiting the spell list would take a lot of the fun out of the class (Not it's potential to walk the cleric's footsteps.)
It would. But it would be a lot harder.
While the fun of cherry-picking every single spell list might go out the window, the PrC as a whole would turn from pick Combat Focus and your fav of the two caster ones would lead to a very flexible PrC who would be constantly changing archetypes depending on mood.
I personally think that version would be a lot more fun to play
Why would limiting the spell list change that?
And what is wrong with picking your favorite two spellcasting focuses, and switching to a different focus when the need arises?
Why would limiting the spell list change that?
And what is wrong with picking your favorite two spellcasting focuses, and switching to a different focus when the need arises?
-Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Chamelon 5 could be an interesting combo, for its ability to MM Effect 3+Int times a day. Grab Combat and Divine, then Persist out Divine Power and a few other choice Divine spells. Your Spellcraft will be Maxed and Persistant will only cost +5, so that's a Spellcraft DC of 18+9*3=45 for a Persistant Divine Power. A 20th level Int based character will have a Spellcraft check somewhere in the high 30s/low 40s (23 ranks+10 Item+6-8 Int).
That would be a pretty nasty Gish. You can also use the Bonus feat to pull a free MM feat each day.
-The ultimate "Secret Agent" class, capable of tailoring itself to the mission at hand (literally in a few minutes, at higher levels). I'm in a Secret Agent mode right now, and I'm still trying to figure out which architecture I like best for sheer versatility. Possibly Rogue 2/Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon 10, for lots of feats and a good set of abilities.
"If you're really a Cleric of Pelor, vaproize those skeletons over there."
"Okay, but I might be a little rusty...(WHOOSH)."
-At later levels, it is probably worth it to start the day with Arcane/Divine (praying for your Divine), buff yourself out with Extend and Persistant, then switch Divine out for Combat.
-You don't necessarily have to have Divine Persistant before going Chameleon; you could use your Bonus Feat to get it. You can also use your Divine Persistant at the beginning of the day on Arcane spells.
Pyro-Chameleon
Swashbuckler 3/ Ranger 2/ Pyrokinetisist 8/ Chameleon 8
BAB +16
Int to Damage and 4d6 weapon afire
at will 8d6 ranged touch attack(fire)
5th lvl Arcane and Divine Spells
16th caster lvl(20th with practiced caster)
good skills
it is even better when you add Sanctify Spell-like(Psi-like) ability(or is it consecrate spl-like, i dont remember), ........that way 1/2 of the fire damage is holy and will affect creatures immune or resistant to Fire.
:D
"If you're really a Cleric of Pelor, vaproize those skeletons over there."
Minor tip: The 'turn undead' that chameleon gets is almost completely useless as an 'actual' ability. As a token ability ("Yep... That guy certainly channeled positive energy. He's definately a cleric") it's quite nice, and if you do find yourself fighting many small skeletal enemies then you might be able to control some with a rebuke.
My reasoning for Turn Undead being useless is based on an analysis I saw a while ago based on monster CR, monster hit-dice, turn resistance. It essentially showed that characters with full turn undead had troubble turning monsters of their own CR, let-alone characters who's turning ability is 5 levels lower than their character level. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark it and the search function is not on... Anybody help me find it?
However, all is not lost for the turning chameleon! Check the magic books of Feyrun article, the same one with the wolfskin spell. The article can be found here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a
Notice the Bone Talisman spell... A 2nd level druid spell that bases turning on caster level!
A 15th level chameleon 10 with this spell could thus, at the expense of one of his 2nd level divine slots, turn undead as-if he was a 20th level cleric. With a bead of karma (activated with UMD), this would allow the 15th level chameleon to reliably (even rolling a 1 on the turning check) turn a 21HD, CR16, Nightwalker!nightstick rod.....gives extra turn attempts
sacred armor,bracers,shield............give +2 each to turn chk and turn lvl
greater holy symbol..................empowered turning at will
:D
NOTE: An optimized undead turner should easily turn far more than thier CR lvl
wow great find......add to it an amulet of undead turning then he would turn as a 28th lvl cleric , even more as you could add on other items:
nightstick rod.....gives extra turn attempts
sacred armor,bracers,shield............give +2 each to turn chk and turn lvl
greater holy symbol..................empowered turning at will
:D
NOTE: An optimized undead turner should easily turn far more than thier CR lvl
Sadly I don't know if the nightstick rod would work as you don't actually have the turn-undead ability. It could add to your uses per day of turn undead with a UMD check, but as the only way for you to turn undead is by activating your Mimic Class Feature ability (which is limited) I don't know how much more you'd get out of it.
Minor tip: The 'turn undead' that chameleon gets is almost completely useless as an 'actual' ability. As a token ability ("Yep... That guy certainly channeled positive energy. He's definately a cleric") it's quite nice, and if you do find yourself fighting many small skeletal enemies then you might be able to control some with a rebuke.
I would never use Turning as the Mimic Class Ability unless it was to fulfill the Chameleon's great calling: Master of Disguise/Superspy. The class ability to mimic is definitely Rage.
I would never use Turning as the Mimic Class Ability unless it was to fulfill the Chameleon's great calling: Master of Disguise/Superspy. The class ability to mimic is definitely Rage.
My reasoning for Turn Undead being useless is based on an analysis I saw a while ago based on monster CR, monster hit-dice, turn resistance. It essentially showed that characters with full turn undead had troubble turning monsters of their own CR, let-alone characters who's turning ability is 5 levels lower than their character level. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark it and the search function is not on... Anybody help me find it?
Sean K. Reynolds has done an excellent analysis of turning on his website. You can find his article here:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/opinions/turningundead.html
He lays out, basically, that a cleric should be turning undead at early levels then stampede for some divine metamagic or other uses for their tuning ability asap, discounting strange prc's or equipment or whatever--- I know CO people can probably turn just about anything in a focused build, but that's specialization for you. General turning kind of blows after the beginning levels. Low HD undead aren't much of a challenge later on, so they stack on the HD and turn resistance, and POOF! you can't reliably turn them anymore...
Still: Maybe consider the Mercantile Background reigonal feat. That way you really can just sell a bunch of your gear and buy new stuff without loss.
The Chameleon Assassin (AKA the Canny Assassin):
Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon 10/Assassin 5 (BAB 14)
or
Rogue 2/Ranger 2/Swashbuckler 1/Chameleon 10/Assassin 5 (BAB 14)
or Rogue 2/Ranger 2/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon 10/Assassin 3 (BAB 15)
Feats (so far):
Able Learner
Dodge/Mobility/Spring
Wpn. Finesse
Rapid Reload (Hand Crossbow)
Leadership (Wiz/Inc Cohort)
Imp. Toughness
PB Shot
(possibly Rapid Shot through Ranger)
Right now I'm liking the last build the best, because I'll be using Insightful Strike far more often than SA, the damage I get from it will be better than an extra 1d6 SA, and I get an extra BAB and more HP. Is it worth, however, the trade off of Improved Uncanny Dodge and 2 to my Death Attack DC?
On the other hand I could get both, but I'd have to drop my Ranger levels.
Theme:
An Assassin-type character that uses his incredible intelligence to strike down opponents, using a combination of Cleric buffing (made Persistent through an Incantatrix Cohort each morning), Wizard spells (particularly spells that allow infiltration or SA), and Martial proficiency.
-Rogue is necessary for the SP
-Ranger is nice for the extra feat (Rapid Shot) and the Favored Enemy (Human)
-Swashbuckler 1 is better than Fighter 1 for the extra SP and the potential for Insightful Strike (which is statistically better than +1d6 SA).
-Death Attack and Insightful strike synergize well, and putting your Competence bonus in Int every day is +3/damage and +3 to the Death Attack DC.
-Chameleon 10 is necessary to be epic ready.
If Int was the basis for your attack roll in the first place, I think this would be worth it. But Dexterity is. So for a +3 to damage, +3 to the Death Attack and Int Skills, you're giving up +3 to AC, Dex skills, and the ability to hit in the first place.
Also, remember, by getting Assassin 5, you're casting 3rd level spells and are a 5th level caster - letting you burn spells through either Arcane Strike or Razing Strike for extra to hit/damage...
-Death Attack and Insightful strike synergize well, and putting your Competence bonus in Int every day is +3/damage and +3 to the Death Attack DC.
-Chameleon 10 is necessary to be epic ready.
I generally view this similar to the Hexblade/Paladin problem. A Cloak of Charisma +6 costs 36K and adds +3 to all saves. A Cloak of Resistance costs 25K and adds +5 to all saves. Which not to say +3 in all charisma skills isn't nice, but it usually isn't worth losing +2 to all saves.
Now why the heck wouldnt you just use a cloak of a charisma and a vest of resistance at no extra cost?
I generally view this similar to the Hexblade/Paladin problem. A Cloak of Charisma +6 costs 36K and adds +3 to all saves. A Cloak of Resistance costs 25K and adds +5 to all saves. Which not to say +3 in all charisma skills isn't nice, but it usually isn't worth losing +2 to all saves.
This is quite the whole comparison in this one case, as the +3 charisma bonus from the cloak of charisma also adds +3 to attack rolls and damage on smite attacks.. and is probably worth the additional cost, especially when you consider you can get save bonuses from another source.
The +3 bonus also adds to how much the paladin can heal... so it's not directly obvious which is a better choice.A Cloak of Resistance +5 and 11K Gold is generally worth more to a Paladin character than a Cloak of Charisma +6. Assuming they don't have the Vest as an option...
The same thing applies to a mostly Roguish build whose primary concern is being able to sneak around and hit people, and then run for it if they don't die. All of which revolves around Dexterity, not Intelligence. Now if Intelligence was used for his to hit roll, then we'd be talking...
This is quite the whole comparison in this one case, as the +3 charisma bonus from the cloak of charisma also adds +3 to attack rolls and damage on smite attacks.. and is probably worth the additional cost, especially when you consider you can get save bonuses from another source.
A Cloak of Resistance +5 and 11K Gold is generally worth more to a Paladin character than a Cloak of Charisma +6. Assuming they don't have the Vest as an option...
I don't know that I agree with that. The extra +3 to hit and +3 to damage in a smite, along with a potential better diplomacy check by +3, coupled with 3 extra hp of healing per level (30 at 10th level), and I am not sure it's a clear cut as you make it. Especially when you combine all those bonuses in one item.
The same thing applies to a mostly Roguish build whose primary concern is being able to sneak around and hit people, and then run for it if they don't die. All of which revolves around Dexterity, not Intelligence. Now if Intelligence was used for his to hit roll, then we'd be talking...
And to that.. I agree with you 100%.
If Int was the basis for your attack roll in the first place, I think this would be worth it. But Dexterity is. So for a +3 to damage, +3 to the Death Attack and Int Skills, you're giving up +3 to AC, Dex skills, and the ability to hit in the first place.
Also, remember, by getting Assassin 5, you're casting 3rd level spells and are a 5th level caster - letting you burn spells through either Arcane Strike or Razing Strike for extra to hit/damage...
I'd like to push you on this a little. Not because I disagree, necessarily, but to get a better sense of the build. So it seems clear that the competence boost goes into Dex. But should the architecture really be Assassin over Swash? Comparison:
BAB: +1 Swash
Saves: +0/1/0 F/R/W (Assassin) vs. +2/1/1 (Swash)
HP: Avg. +4 HP (Swash)
Skills: Even (Able Learner makes it a question of total SP).
Class Abilities: +1 sv. vs. poison, imp. uncanny dodge, +2 Death Attack DC and +1d6 SA vs +Int to damage (at least 6) with Light weapons at all times (I include the hand crossbow in this category, though it's questionable).
Spells: Loses 2+Bonus Int 2nd level spells and Bonus Int 3rd level spells. 3rd level Assassin spells wouldn't be good for anything but Arcane Strike.
Analysis: Mixed. Losing that Will save hurts for a build with an already weak will save (base +5 or so). Class abilities and spells +Arcane Strike do heavily benefit those extra assassin levels.
The questions for me becomes how often would I benefit from Arcane Strike vs. Insightful Strike?
Razing Strike I don't know. Book?
:D
Divine Chameleon
human
base Wis = 16
base Cha = 16
Swashbuckler 3/ Cleric 1(Pelor......Sun/Healing)/ Marshal 1/ Chameleon 10/ Radient servant of Pelor 5(glory domain)
feats of importance:
extra turning
with a few items, as was mentioned:
36000gp +6 cloak of Charisma
36000gp +6 periapt of Wisdom
20000 GP Bead of Karma (DMG) - wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes.
5040 GP Greater Holy Symbol (Defenders of the Faith) – Gain the Empower Turning* feat.
11000 GP Phylactery of Undead Turning (DMG) – Turn as a cleric 4 levels higher
20576 GP Rod of Authority (Defenders of the Faith) – turn as a cleric 4 levels higher
12500 GP Scepter of Obedience (Miniature's Handbook) - +5 competence bonus to Charisma ability and skill checks.
137000 GP Tome of Leadership and Influence +5 (DMG) - +5 inherent bonus to charisma
60000gp Ankh of Asension cast spells at +4 levels higher
9000gp +1 Sacred Shield
9000gp +1 Sacred Armor
9000gp +1 Sacred bracers
……………………
293116gp spent 466884gp left to spend
final Wis = 22(16+6 periapt)
final Cha = 38(16+5 lvls+5 inherent+6 cloak+6 Ability Boon)
Turn Undead as 24th lvl Cleric if only counting cleric and RsoP lvls, if only counting Chameleon lvls Turn as 28th lvl cleric,or as a 34th lvl cleric if they stack
# of turns = 21 regular turns, 17 greater turns
Max HD Turned = 24 or 28or 34
Max HD Destroyed = 24 or 28 or 34
Max turning damage = 2d6+1d6(glory)+14Cha+24(cleric lvl)=average rolls x1.5(empowered turning)=70/76/85 HD
Remember ,….there is no save or SR vs Turning undead
This is not even specifically optimized to Turn Undead, simply a cleric based Chameleon that can imitate a Uber-undead slayer, not only that but it can cast its Buff spells as a 28th lvl caster and All divine spls are cast at 24th lvl caster.
in addition to all that,..............his diplomacy would be maxed out and UMD!
:D
And cloak of resistance is probably inferior to a vest of resistance (CD). You can wear that and a cloak if you so desire.
Class Abilities: +1 sv. vs. poison, imp. uncanny dodge, +2 Death Attack DC and +1d6 SA vs +Int to damage (at least 6) with Light weapons at all times (I include the hand crossbow in this category, though it's questionable).
I think that's the primary question - why's your Int so high? Assuming a 14 starting value and a +2 item, that's +3 and more than enough to get all your Chameleon spells. If it is up to 22, I think the clear thing to do is just drop the Ranger levels.
The Int's up there to allow him to act as the mechanical Rogue. Maxed Hide/MS/O. Lock/Search/Disable, with Spot, Listen and UMD close. Very easy to do with a Human with Able Learner and a bunch of 4-8+Int SP/level classes.
I think that's the primary question - why's your Int so high? Assuming a 14 starting value and a +2 item, that's +3 and more than enough to get all your Chameleon spells. If it is up to 22, I think the clear thing to do is just drop the Ranger levels.
The Int's up there to allow him to act as the mechanical Rogue. Maxed Hide/MS/O. Lock/Search/Disable, with Spot, Listen and UMD close. Very easy to do with a Human with Able Learner and a bunch of 4-8+Int SP/level classes.
You're right though, with +6 Item and a 14 Int I'm only looking at a +5 melee damage...still far superior to an extra +1d6 sneak.
The silver dragon bonus class skill is Disguise, and sorcs already have Bluff.
This could add up to some fun extra spellcasting at later levels, not to mention a chameleon no-one expects.
EvilLuke
Though there's probably something fun that can be done by taking Draconic Heritage with the floating Chameleon feat, then buying the other feats afterwards.
But I'll add that to the metanotes.
A fifth level sorcerer can start on the Chameleon prestige class with the addition of a single feat: Draconic Heritage.
The silver dragon bonus class skill is Disguise, and sorcs already have Bluff.
This could add up to some fun extra spellcasting at later levels, not to mention a chameleon no-one expects.
EvilLuke
Barbarian 3/Fighter 2/Warlock 4/Chameleon 10/EWM 1
1: Barbarian 1: Able Learner, Combat Reflexes
2: Fighter 1: Combat Expertise
3: Warlock 1: Improved Trip: Invocation 1: See the Unseen, EB 1d6
4: Warlock 2: Invocation 2: Entropic Shield: Detect magic at Will: Str 17
5: Warlock 3: DR 1/Cold Iron, EB 2d6
6: Chameleon 1: EWP: Spiked Chain
7: Chameleon 2
8: Chameleon 3: Str 18
9: Chameleon 4: Quick Draw: Str 20
10: Chameleon 5
11: Chameleon 6
12: Chameleon 7: Extended Rage: Str 23
13: Chameleon 8
14: Chameleon 9
15: Chameleon 10: WF: Spiked Chain
16: Exotic Weapon Master: Flurry: Str 26
17: Warlock 4: Invocation 3: Leaps & Bounds
18: Barbarian 2: Power Attack
19: Fighter 2: Expert Tactician
20: Barbarian 3: Str 27(likely 38 with +6 stat item and +5 inherent bonus from book)
BAB +16(+3 for unusual str bonus+4 for chameleon combat focus+1 for WF = +24 effectively, almost as good as any non-Chameleon build possible - and usable all day instead during a rage or dance of some kind)
.
Saves +16/5/12. Reflex isn't that great, but on the other hand, the build has some incentive to get a higher dex so as to max out Mithril Plate. Also likely has Extended Heroism via a lesser rod going most of the time, so gets +2 of an unusual bonus to all saves, attacks, and skill checks.
Notable Odd Things:
Assuming a 14 starting int, must put a half point into all 4 of the Chameleon requirements at level 2. This is the only way to make Fighter work at 2nd level.
At 5th level, has a respectable average of 41 hp, particularly in context with the DR 1/Cold Iron, Entropic Warding(20% miss chance for most ranged attacks on him), and See Invisibility up all the time. In comparison with a typical Barbarian 1/Fighter 4 who would have 44 hp. Assuming 3 hits in order to kill, that DR should make up the difference.
Levels 6/7 are relatively lousy - no second attack, though to hit with the main attack is pretty good. I was having a lot of issues giving up Hideous Blow for an additional 2d6 with a standard attack, though I didn't think it worth it at the higher levels. Does gain +2 to hit/damage and has that nice floating feat which can be used to advance the various feats. Likely often in Still Spell or some chain off of Power Attack.
At level 9, Strength starts to jump ahead of the typical tank.
Level 12, way ahead of the typical tank, having +3 to hit, +7 damage over a typical tank of that level. Not including the 3 rages/day.
By the end of the progression, should be able to max out:
Listen, UMD, and have decent Spot and Tumble scores. By taking 10 in UMD, should auto-succeed at reading a scroll of Anti-Magic Field, giving him lots of anti-caster options. And the ability to make melee touch attacks by casting a swift 2nd level spell from CV means the average dwarven tin can tank can have 400+ hp of damage inflicted on it at high levels in a round by flurrying the spiked chain at their AC of likely about 25 or so and spending 10 points of BAB on Power Attack.
If your DM allows Illumians, the one that puts str onto bonus spells is basically a slam dunk option for this class. 38 Str worth of bonus spells...just move Fighter 1 from level 2 to at least level 3 and kill one of the higher level feats.
Thoughts?
nicely done 
Combat Reflexes especially, but also Improved Trip won't be worth a lot before you get the ability to use the darned chain. I would take EWP: Spiked Chain at 1st level, and Combat Reflexes at 2nd.
- Dain
EDIT: Do you really think it's worth giving up one feat and one level for the ability to avoid fatigue after rage? I think the feat and the level could be used for better things.
In fact, just use the feat for Extend Rage. In a lot of cases it will be just as useful or even better to extend the rage than ending the rage w/o fatigue. This way you'll have one more level to play with.
That's a good point about the Endurance. Without 3 levels of Ranger, it doesn't make it worth more than Extended Rage.
I can't figure out why you wait until level 6 with EWP: Spiked Chain.
Combat Reflexes especially, but also Improved Trip won't be worth a lot before you get the ability to use the darned chain. I would take EWP: Spiked Chain at 1st level, and Combat Reflexes at 2nd.
- Dain
EDIT: Do you really think it's worth giving up one feat and one level for the ability to avoid fatigue after rage? I think the feat and the level could be used for better things.
In fact, just use the feat for Extend Rage. In a lot of cases it will be just as useful or even better to extend the rage than ending the rage w/o fatigue. This way you'll have one more level to play with.
Meta-items:
Core Spells at Lower than Normal Levels:
Bard:
1st: Undetectable Alignment
2nd: Heroism, Suggestion, Tongues
3rd: Charm Monster, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Good Hope, Scrying
4th: Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Legend Lore
5th: Greater Dispel Magic, Shadowwallk, Mass Suggestion
6th: Mass Charm Monster, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Greater Scrying, Project Image, Greater Shout
Paladin:
1st: Lesser Restoration
2nd: -
3rd: Discern Lies, Greater Magic Weapon
4th: -
Ranger:
1st: Delay Poison, Resist Energy, Embrace the Wild(CV)
2nd: Protection from Energy, Speak with Plants
3rd: -
4th: Animal Growth, Commune with Nature, Tree Stride
Hexblade:
1st: Tasha's Hideous Laughter
2nd:
3rd:
4th: Baleful Polymorph
Here are some addition:
The Adept has a nice mixed spell list (they are divine casters): Cure spells, restoration, heal, raise dead etc. AND scorching ray, invisibility, polymorph, stoneskin etc.
Here are some addition:
The Adept has a nice mixed spell list (they are divine casters): Cure spells, restoration, heal, raise dead etc. AND scorching ray, invisibility, polymorph, stoneskin etc.
:D
the Witch(DMG) also has its own spell list , Arcane spells....including Cures and other cleric/druid spells as Arcane spells.
:D
Where is the Adept from?
0th: Deftness [Wiz, Drg 302], Foraging charm [Wiz, Drg 302], Ghostharp [Brd, MoF/PGtF], Heat water [Wiz, Drg 302], Minor disguise [Bard, MoF/PGtF], Resize [Wiz, Drg 302], Stick [Brd, Und].
1st: Accelerated movement [Brd, CAd], Accuracy [WJ, CA], Arrow mind [Wiz, CAd], Balancing lorecall [Wiz, CAd], Critical strike [Ass, CAd], Discern bloodline [Brd, RoD], Distort speach [Brd, CAd], Distract assailant [Ass, CAd], Fist of stone [Wiz, CAr], Focusing chant [Brd, CAd], Friendly face [Brd, RoD], Golem strike [Wiz, CAd], Healthful rest [Drd, CAd], Insightful feint [Wiz, CAd], Instant locksmith [Wiz, CAd], Instant search [Wiz, CAd], Locate city [Brd, RoD], Magecraft [Wiz, Ebr], Master's touch [Brd, CAd], Rooftop strider [Ass, RoD], Scholar's touch [Brd, RoD], Secret signs [WJ, CAr], Sniper's shot [Wiz, CAd], Swift exptditious retreat [Brd, CAd].
2nd: Bestow curse [Dem, BoVD], Create magic tatoo [Wiz, PGtF], Daggerspell stance [Wiz, CAd], Demoncall [Dem, BoVD], Ice knife [Wiz, CAr], Insidious rythm [Brd, CAd], Insignia of alarm [Brd, RoD], Iron silence [Brd, CAd], Listening lorecall [Wiz, CAd], Magic circle against Good/Evil [Dem, BoVD], Mindless rage [Brd, CAd], Miser's envy [Brd, Drc], Phantasmal assailants [Wiz, CAr], Swift fly [Brd, CAd], Swift invisibility [Brd, CAd], Tactical precision [Brd, CAd], Vertigo [Brd, WotC], Wall of gloom [Wiz, CAr], Wracking touch [Wiz, CAd], Wraithstrike [Wiz, CAd].
3rd: Absorb weapon [Ass, CAd], Abyssal might [Dem, BoVD], Allegro [Brd 3, CAd], Call dretch horde [Dem, BoVD], Corrupt summons [Dem, BoVD], Demon wings [Dem, BoVD], Dirge of discord [Brd, CAd], Dread word [Dem, BoVD], Dimensional anchor [Dem, BoVD], Fell the greatest foe [Ass, Drc], Find the gap [Ass, Drc], Harmonic chorus [Brd, CAd], Hymn of praise [Brd, CAd], Infernal threnody [Brd, CAd], Lesser planar binding [Dem, BoVD], Ring of blades [War, CAr], Sign of sealing [Wiz, CAr], Spectral weapon [Wiz, CAd], Speechlink [Brd, CAd].
4th: Bestow greater curse [Dem, BoVD], Call nightmare [Dem, BoVD], Cloud of the achaierai [Dem, BoVD], Dismissal [Dem, BoVD], Hide from dragons [Ass, Drc], Impotent possessor [Dem, BoVD], Imprison possessor [Dem, BoVD], Lesser spirit binding [WJ, CAr], Listening coin [Brd, CAd], Planar binding [Dem, BoVD], Shadowform [Ass, CAd], Sniper's eye [Ass, CAd], Vulnerability [Ass, Drc], War cry [Brd, CAd].
5th: Draconic polymorph [Wiz, Drc], Freezing fog [Wiz, CAr], Improvisation [Brd, CAd], Nightstalker's transformation [Wiz, CAd], Reciprocal gyre [Wiz, CAr], Wail of doom [Brd, CAd].
6th: Arrow of bone [Wiz, CAr], Greater sign of sealing [Wiz, CAr], Hindsight [Brd, CAd], Illusory pit [Wiz, CAr] Spirit binding [WJ, CAr].
Divine spells~
0th:
1st: Arrow mind [Ran, CAd], Bloodhound [Ran, CAd], Branch to branch [Ran, CAd], Camouflage [Ran, Und], Easy trail [Ran, CAd], Embrace the wild [Ran, CAd], Grave strike [Clr, CAd], Handfire [Selune, PGtF], Hawkeye [Drd, CAd], Healing lorecall [Ran, CAd], Healthful rest [Drd, CAd], Hunter's mercy [Ran, MoF], Instant search [Ran, CAd], Joyful noise [Brd, CAd], Locate city [Rng, RoD], Omen of peril [Clr, RoD], Rooftop strider [City, RoD], Sniper's shot [Ran, CAd], Surefoot [Ran, MoF], Towering oak [Ran, MoF], Vine strike [Drd, CAd], Wieldskill [Gond, PGtF].
2nd: Balancing lorecall [Drd, CAd], Cloak of bravery [Pal, Drc], Daggerspell stance [Drd, CAd], Divine insight [Clr, CAd], Easy climb [Ran, CAd], Insignia of alarm [Clr, RoD], Iron silence [Clr, CAd], Listening lorecall [Drd, CAd], Shield of warding [Pal, Drc], Swift haste [Ran, CAd], Train animal [Drd, CAd], Wracking touch [Drd, CAd].
3rd: Anyspell [Mystra, MoF/PGtF], Blade storm [Ran, CAd], Delay death [Clr, RoD], Entangling staff [Drd, CAd], Fell the greatest foe [Pal, Drc], Find the gap [Pal, Drc], Forestfold [Ran, CAd], Insignia of healing [Clr, RoD], Mace of Odo [Helm, PGtF], Magic vestiment [Clr], Mold touch [Nature, PGtF], Mystic lash [Bane, PGtF], Ring of blades [Clr, CAr], Skull watch [Clr, PGtF], Undead bane weapon [Pal, PGtF], Understand device [Gond, PGtF].
4th: Arrow storm [Ran, CAd], Commune with city [City, RoD], Draconic might [Pal, Drc], Foebane [Ran, CAd], Skull of secrets [Cyric, PGtF], Thorn spray [Nature, PGtF].
5th: Cloak of the sea [Drd, CAd], Moonweb [Selune, PGtF], Spell phylactery [Mystra, PGtF], Tree healing [Nature, PGtF].
6th: Energy immunity [Clr, Drc], Greater anyspell [Mystra, MoF/PGtF], Rainbow [Clr, Drg 321], Spellmantle [Mystra, PGtF], Stone walk [Bane, PGtF], Warp destiny [Destiny, RoD].
Format is [Spell list, Book]. Hopefully you can guess what abbreviations I'm using for which class.
:OMG! nice job catharz, this really makes this a great resource.again , nice job
lots of spells deleted...
That's a really good list - only problem I see is that you've included the Initiate spells - which aren't part of a class spell list, but rather individual's spell lists.
That's a really good list - only problem I see is that you've included the Initiate spells - which aren't part of a class spell list, but rather individual's spell lists.
I just included them for characters that may be allowed to use them (lenient DM), and for Cleric/Chameleons (IMO the next best after Artificer) considering taking the feat.
I have started with a third level ranger before I got to see Races of Destiny.
My DM is very resonible so I can make some switches. My main concern is not burning the party I am in as I am now one of the best fighters.
SO with the following stats this is my idea.
I have 14 in everything except charisma witch is 1.
I was thinking of switching the 11 to strength keeping levels of fighter and putting 1 in swashbuckler.
I would take able learner and city slicker as my first two feats unsure what to do a third.
Iw ould then continue with swashbuckler until I can entire chameleon.
Iw ould love to hear anybodies ideas.
My other thoght was maybe using cleric with trickery domain.
PLease help guide me without weakening my fighter abilities too much.
Greg
So one of my favorite 'tank' builds is Barbarian 1/Warlock 3/Fighter 1/Chameleon X - with a 14 Int and Able Learner, you've just got the stats to pull it off. Get Warlock 4 after you finish Chameleon. Get EWM in there somewhere as well so as to be able to use either Uncanny Blow or Flurry.
The Warlock levels are nice as it gives you a good will save, DR 1/Cold Iron, and you can take the See the Unseen and the Entropic Shield one. You'll take less damage in general and have a 2d6 ranged touch attack for when you need it - even if you're wearing Plate, your odds of hitting are likely better with ASF than they are just simply firing a bow.
I hope it is ok I put this in this strand.
I have started with a third level ranger before I got to see Races of Destiny.
My DM is very resonible so I can make some switches. My main concern is not burning the party I am in as I am now one of the best fighters.
SO with the following stats this is my idea.
I have 14 in everything except charisma witch is 1.
I was thinking of switching the 11 to strength keeping levels of fighter and putting 1 in swashbuckler.
I would take able learner and city slicker as my first two feats unsure what to do a third.
Iw ould then continue with swashbuckler until I can entire chameleon.
Iw ould love to hear anybodies ideas.
My other thoght was maybe using cleric with trickery domain.
PLease help guide me without weakening my fighter abilities too much.
Greg
Iwas debating about using ancestral relic or maybe weapon focus at 3rd. Are there any specific feats you feel are especially useful going into this class?
Do You know any 2nd or 3rd level divine spell which helps me keeping away a 11th level grappling monk ?
(fly, levitate, would be good...)(my character: 1 ranger/3 warlock/ 1 cleric (fate and luck domain)/5 chameleon (divine focus) (sum. 10th level) and I have to defeat a 11th level monk... won't be easy
. I can cast a single 4th level spell: -freedom of movement? (He has the weakening touch feat which can hurt me even if we don't grapple)
-polimorph? I can take a 10hd red dragon form, then cast scorsching rays above him
, but He has a very high touch ac and I have only 6 ray....)any idea?
This is another reason to like the Warlock move rather than City Slicker - they have that Invocation that adds +6 unnamed bonus to Diplomacy, Bluff and I think Intimidate. With that kind of bonus, who cares if you're not that great at it...
I liked the stat switch because of the number of skills that end up having charisma. With the 3rd level and 6th level feats what would you recommend if I was going to go the ranger/swashbuckler route. Without city slicker I wouldn't get into the class until much later.
Hi,
Iwas debating about using ancestral relic or maybe weapon focus at 3rd. Are there any specific feats you feel are especially useful going into this class?
Combat expertise is a good choice
Hi!
Do You know any 2nd or 3rd level divine spell which helps me keeping away a 11th level grappling monk ?
(my character: 1 ranger/3 warlock/ 1 cleric (fate and luck domain)/5 chameleon (divine focus) (sum. 10th level) and I have to defeat a 11th level monk... won't be easy
-freedom of movement? (He has the weakening touch feat which can hurt me even if we don't grapple)
-polimorph? I can take a 10hd red dragon form, then cast scorsching rays above him
any idea?
Possibly not the wisest idea, but why not fight fire with fire? Having your 4th level spell as freedom of movement is nice, but not entierly nessecary.
Divine power could up your BAB by 4, with the +6 strength that gives you an effective +7 to your grapple check which might be enough to match or even exceed the monk's grapple check. He'll presumably have 8+4+strength including improved grapple, you'll have 10+3+base strength.
Summon Nature's Ally IV can snag you a giant crocodile for 10 rounds. It has a grapple check of +21.
Use a 3rd level slot for Air Walk. Air walk lasts for 10 minutes per level and has saved my cleric from grappling several times.
Barbarian 3/Fighter 2/Warlock 4/Chameleon 10/EWM 1
A great build, but I have some questions about your post.
1) Your post refers to Horizon Walker, which you don't take. Is that a relic of an earlier version of the build?
2) You refer to Extended Heroism. As you don't have Extend Spell, you'd have to take Extend Spell instead of Still Spell as your floating feat. Or are you using a Rod?
3) All 5 level-ups go to increase Str?
4) You mention Illumians, but I don't see how you can fit all the feats in using Illumian. The lack of the human bonus feat seems to screw things up, as does the lack of bonus skill points.
1. Yes. Switched out Endurance for Extended Rage.
2. Yes, a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell. Something no Chameleon who casts spells should be without.
3. Yes.
4. In order to get the Illumian to work properly, you need to kill one of the later level feats, and switch the 1st level of Fighter to at least 3rd level.
A great build, but I have some questions about your post.1) Your post refers to Horizon Walker, which you don't take. Is that a relic of an earlier version of the build?
2) You refer to Extended Heroism. As you don't have Extend Spell, you'd have to take Extend Spell instead of Still Spell as your floating feat. Or are you using a Rod?
3) All 5 level-ups go to increase Str?
4) You mention Illumians, but I don't see how you can fit all the feats in using Illumian. The lack of the human bonus feat seems to screw things up, as does the lack of bonus skill points.
Frenzied Berserker Chameleon:
Barbarian 2/Cleric 1(Trickery/War)/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10/Frenzied Berserker 5
Does Divine Meta Persistent Divine Power and has a +12 Strength when Frenzied
How do you meta persistent divine power? There's no such thing as a 10th level slot.
How do you meta persistent divine power? There's no such thing as a 10th level slot.
Divine Metamagic feat... Complete Divine. Uses of turning rather than spell levels.
Divine Metamagic feat... Complete Divine. Uses of turning rather than spell levels.
Don't you think that it's cheating?
Using the turn undead effect from your cleric class to power your chameleon spells... I know there isn't anything in the rules against this, but... Possibly not the wisest idea, but why not fight fire with fire? Having your 4th level spell as freedom of movement is nice, but not entierly nessecary.
Divine power could up your BAB by 4, with the +6 strength that gives you an effective +7 to your grapple check which might be enough to match or even exceed the monk's grapple check. He'll presumably have 8+4+strength including improved grapple, you'll have 10+3+base strength..
Grapple with a monk? He can make 4 grappple checks in a round and can cause more damage than me...soo no chance
Summon Nature's Ally IV can snag you a giant crocodile for 10 rounds. It has a grapple check of +21.
Use a 3rd level slot for Air Walk. Air walk lasts for 10 minutes per level and has saved my cleric from grappling several times.
The air walk is a 4th level spell
, a crocodile has too low attack bonus to hit the monk..My strategy: freedom of movement, divine favor, shield of faith, ability boon to strenght and then rage
Honestly, I'm not that thrilled with using Divine Metamagic to Persist spells in the first place - but if a DM allows it for a cleric, I don't see why one shouldn't for a Chameleon.
Don't you think that it's cheating?
If you use the Turning effect from Chameleon, it stacks with any cleric levels you might have
Honestly, I'm not that thrilled with using Divine Metamagic to Persist spells in the first place - but if a DM allows it for a cleric, I don't see why one shouldn't for a Chameleon.
It says:
Turn/Rebuke Undead (Su): You can turn or rebuke undead creatures (your choice when activating the ability) by channeling the power of your faith through a holy symbol. See Turn or Rebuke Undead, page 159 of the Player's Handbook. Treat your cleric level as equal to your class level..
1, I think you don't really have the turn undead ability at all (just mimic-remember you can not even qualify for the div. met. feat with your mimic ability), but probably most DM would allow it to use for divine metamagic (but it's max. 3 atempts so no persistant thing...).
2, there is not a word about that turning effeckt stacks with your cleric level
I am starting in an Eberron 3.5 campaign and have been charged with the duty of Rogue. I found the Changeling race intriguing, so i chose that. My stats are STR 12, DEX 17, CON 10, INT 16, WIS 14, CHA 18. It's still early enough that I can tweak my character, so nothing is set in stone.
This Chameleon PrC is intriguing. What kind of build would you recommend? Our party has a Warforged Artificer, but no mage, so I could possibly tailor my character that way?
Any and all comments greatly appreciated!
Grapple with a monk? He can make 4 grappple checks in a round and can cause more damage than me...soo no chance
Hmm. I suppsoe the extra damage he could do when he got a hit in would balance possibly having a higher grapple check than him.
The air walk is a 4th level spell
Oops. I thought air walk was a 3rd level spell.
My strategy: freedom of movement, divine favor, shield of faith, ability boon to strenght and then rage
It might work. I personally think that Divine Power woudl be a better choice than Freedom of Movement. With the extra strength from Ability Boon, Rage, and Divine power (which also ups your BAB by 4) you should be able to shrug off his grapple attempts without difficulty. That combines with the fact that Divine Power effectively gives you +7 to hit and +3 to damage (+4-5 to damage with a two-handed weapon) to ensure a swift takedown (preferably before rage wears-off). With that high a to-hit, you might want to consider using a two-handed weapon with power attack as your shiftable feat to ensure an even faster take-down.
Polymorph may be a good choice as you can cast as it's a divine spell from the Adept NPC Class spell-list (but I think you know that already). The Very Young Red Dragon is 10HD and gives you 21 strength and large size (+9 to grapple assuming you have a base strength of 10 or 11). You also get 6 natural attacks and the ability to fly really (really) fast if you need to. It also lasts 1 minute per level rather than 1 round per level like Freedom of Movement and Divine Power.
or simply use mirror image + fly + acid fog............... fly above the acid fog and MM,scorching ray him
:D
A.) Rouge 2
B.) Bard 2
C.) Psychic Rouge 2
Then go Human Paragon
The 3 levels 4 skills and you can choose 10 skills, not to mention the bonus feat, and if you go bard or pyschic rouge you get that extra spell casting level.
Then you get to choose an automatic class skill for all your classes with adaptive learning. I would think UMD or another nifty skill.
So finally, a decent build would be somewhere along the lines of
Bard 2 Human Paragon 3 Chameleon 10 PrC 5.
I was thinking warchanter for the PrC but really its up to you.
The problem I see is that no matter what PrC for the last 5, you can have only a maxmum of +15 BAB.
Which doesn't really make any sense unless their levels stack - at least when firing off the Chameleon version.
It doesn't really matter - if your DM is allowing Divine Metamagic Persistent, odds are they don't have a real big problem with Divine Metamagic Persistent on other divine classes. If they're not, then it doesn't really matter all that much.
2, there is not a word about that turning effeckt stacks with your cleric level
. With the extra strength from Ability Boon, Rage, and Divine power (which also ups your BAB by 4) you should be able to shrug off his grapple attempts without difficulty. That combines with the fact that Divine Power effectively gives you +7 to hit and +3 to damage (+4-5 to damage with a two-handed weapon) to ensure a swift takedown (preferably before rage wears-off). With that high a to-hit, you might want to consider using a two-handed weapon with power attack as your shiftable feat to ensure an even faster take-down..
Polymorph may be a good choice as you can cast as it's a divine spell from the Adept NPC Class spell-list (but I think you know that already ). The Very Young Red Dragon is 10HD and gives you 21 strength and large size (+9 to grapple assuming you have a base strength of 10 or 11). You also get 6 natural attacks and the ability to fly really (really) fast if you need to. It also lasts 1 minute per level rather than 1 round per level like Freedom of Movement and Divine Power.
Freedom of movement is 10 min/level
To be more on topic I'm thinking on this build:
3 rogue/3 ninja/ then chameleon
On early levels I'd use the divine focus, from 7th level divine+combat and the ninja ability to ad wis modifier to ac would be good.... (my wis modifier would be 7-8 at this time)
...But maybe useless... There is an item "monk's belt" which seems to do the same thing and it's only 13000gp
Am I right?Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10/Spymaster 4 could be fun.
Just as an earlier posted started their statement, so will I; I hope it's ok that I post this here...
I am starting in an Eberron 3.5 campaign and have been charged with the duty of Rogue. I found the Changeling race intriguing, so i chose that. My stats are STR 12, DEX 17, CON 10, INT 16, WIS 14, CHA 18. It's still early enough that I can tweak my character, so nothing is set in stone.!
Human
No stats yet (yet to be rolled)
Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Chameleon 7
Feats:
1 Able Learner
H Otherworldly? (Don't know if PGtF is allowed)
3 Weapon Finesse
R Track
R TWF
6 Leadership? (Depends on charisma)
9 ITWF
12 Silent Spell? (useful for a stealthy character, but I may just use rods)
I don't know wether the extra feat is all that important, but the extra skill points will be invaluable for my skills which I want quite a few of. I was hoping to keep 8 skills maxxed (Hide, Move S. Survival, Search, Dis D, UMD, Tumble, and Concentraton) with Spellcraft at half ranks (hopefully maxxing it if I can take a class with disable device as a class skill). I was planning for my foci of choice to be the arcane/divine 'chameleon theurge' for maximised spellcasting ability
The sigl word of choice would appear to be Uurkrau to maximise dex usage for the spellcaster, but I'm not sure wether or not it's worth it. I still really should max int and wis for save DCs, and a high int may well be more easily achieveable due to spending more on it in the first place.
Other possible problems I have are: Runes are somewhat disadvantageous to a stealthy build. When I need to sneak, I lose my bonus spells and bonuses on sneaking checks. It's either that or I'm down another feat compared to the human.
Does anybody have any angles on this problem that I've not considered?
I was thinking somewhere along the lines of Cleric Of Xen Lu or whatever her name is from Complete Divine for the Trickery and War Domains. (I like the Falchion too.)
Cleric 4 Fighter 2 Warshaper 4 Chameleon 10
+17 BAB.. without Divine Favor...
Persitant Divine..
Warshaper Goodies...
I would rather have a 3 level dip instead of he cleric 4...but wasn't sure on a good one.
And some chameleon questions...
What are the two recommended abilities...
I would really want trapfinding ability, but it seems sort of a waste when you can go for more spells.
I would be definatley wanting more of a jack of all trades style chameleon hence the chameleon part.. able to fill any role when the problem happens.
Any comments?
Ranger 2/Swashbuckler 1: Track, Weapon finesse, Rapid Shot or TWF, better skills than cleric
Ranger 2/Rogue 1: Track, Trapfinding, 1d6 Sneak attack, Rapid Shot or TWF, great skill selection
Swashbuckler 3: Weapon Finesse, Int to damage, better skills than cleric
Rogue 3: Trapfinding, 2d6 sneak, Evasion, great skills.
if you're allowed Unearthed Arcana's Feat Variant Rogue then consider 1-2 levels of that for the feats, skills, trapfinding, and (at 2nd level) evasion.
Level 1 artificer might fit in there too. You get trapfinding and the ability to make practically any item. Note that you can use your floating feat to switch around item creation feats, but still need the caster level required to take those feats in the first place.
Thanks for the previous help. This is my final decison.
Ranger 2, swashbuckler 2, cleric trickery domain 1.
I was wondering about feats. I have luck of hereos and able learner first. Any suggestions for 3rd and 6th, Is luck of hereos worth it?.
Thanks,
Greg
Is Illumian worth it over human? I'm currently building a character for a 12th level game and wondering wether to make him illumian.
Human
No stats yet (yet to be rolled)
Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Chameleon 7
Hi,
Thanks for the previous help. This is my final decison.
Ranger 2, swashbuckler 2, cleric trickery domain 1.
I was wondering about feats. I have luck of hereos and able learner first. Any suggestions for 3rd and 6th, Is luck of hereos worth it?.
Thanks,
Greg
Not a tone of money and magic, partially why I liked ancestral relic.
WHat about getting set up for divine meta magic, persstent during the chameleon levels.
What would help in that regard?
And Charisma is a dump stat for Chameleons and that's a lot of feat expenditure early on.
I'd go Ranger 1/Swashbuckler 1/Warlock 3 - gets you +5/3/3 saves, DR 1/Cold Iron, the ability to See Invisible/Darkvision, and either the Entropic Shield or the one that adds +6 to 3 high-use charisma based skills or the one that gives +6 to the dex skills. Then eventually get Warlock to 4 at high levels for the take 10 on UMD.
Hi,
Not a tone of money and magic, partially why I liked ancestral relic.
WHat about getting set up for divine meta magic, persstent during the chameleon levels.
What would help in that regard?
It has to be ranger 2, then swashbuckler, cleric, thief or bard.
I was thinking of arcane strike, divene magic, persistent or soemthing like that at higher levels.
Weapon feats have me at a loss.
Whats better?
Hey I Found a trap, be careful! or Reflex save or take 4d6 damage.
(You can thank my DM for his trap heavy attitude.)
Enough about that.
so what feats are recommended for chameleons besides the able learner?
Comparing these two quite poorly built builds i made up in less than 2 minutes...
A.) Changeling
Rouge(Feat Variant) 2 /Cleric (trickery and planning) 1 /Fighter 1 /Chameleon 10 /Warshaper 4 / X 1
Not necesarily in that order...
Pros:
Divine Metamagic
Warshaper Abilities
A couple of more feats
Cons
Very Feat heavy You will be using up all your necessary feats by level 10 for divine metamagic
No Diety that I have researched has the domains of trickery and planning together. (though i hardly searched)
B.)Human Rouge(Feat Variant) 3 /Fighter 2 /Chameleon 10/ PrC 5
Pros:
Plenty of Feats (9 feats by level 10 with bonus feats)
Versatility
+16 BAB with a good prestige class for the last 5 levels
Skills
Cons:
No divine metamagic
Somewhat weaker at higher levels
Is divine metamagic better than just a veratile chameleon? It just seems that Chameleons with divine persist seem more powerful than their counter parts.
Comments positive and negative are greatly appreciated
And Artificer rocks the trapfinding.
Its Rogue.
If I had a penny everytime I did this...
We had a bit of a disagreement in our group concerning the wording under the aptitude focus introduction. In it, it mentions that at first level you get one aptitude focus at first and it lasts 24 hours. It then is followed by the phrase usuable once a day. I always understood that this meant you had all of the abilities listed under the focus usuable for a whole day. Our one group member felt it meant that once you used one of the abilities under a focus ie pluses to hit for fighter focus then you were done for the day, clarity would be appreciated. I believe its just poorly worded and means that you get all of the abilities of a focus for 24 hours not one use of them.
Please help!
Right now, two Ironwood Light Maces seem my best options, but I can't cast Ironwood for two more levels so some other option would be preferable in the mean-time.
[edit]Hmm. Re-reading it it seems that any Ironwood versions of metal weapons can be used with spikes. I'm thinking Ironwood Picks or Kukris would seem the nastiest options, no?[/edit]
Arcane Strike or Item Creation isn't very practical - you need to be able to cast 3rd level Arcane spells without Chameleon - or have a significant caster level without Chameleon.
Aptitude Focus is the ability to pick one of the five foci, not the ability granted by the foci. You pick one, it lasts for 24 hours until you change it. If your friend was right, why give more than 1 spell per level for the divine foci...
Am I right then in believing that most of us agree that diivine plus persistent is one of the very powerful combinations available? What about arcane strike with the high BAB of most builds? Any other meta magic or spell manipulating feats people recommend. I think the various creation ones taken as daily options can make you an effective magic item generator.
Our one group member felt it meant that once you used one of the abilities under a focus ie pluses to hit for fighter focus then you were done for the day, clarity would be appreciated. I believe its just poorly worded and means that you get all of the abilities of a focus for 24 hours not one use of them.
Please help!
I was wondering about feats.
If you want to take advantage of the flexability of the second level changeable feat that the Chameloeon gets, feats that are prerequisites for other feats make good early choices.
Combat Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mounted Combat, Point Black Shot, Power Attack
--Chet
How do you meta persistent divine power? There's no such thing as a 10th level slot.
Another option, should you be able to convince a DM to use Dragon Magazine 325. In it there is the Easy Metamagic feat that reduces a chosen metamagic feat's cost by 1 level.
It lets you convert turning attempts as a substitute for the metamagic cost.
I realized that the spellcraft skill is needed as a requirement.
This most defnatley happens most builds that rely on getting to cham by level 5.
It is almost required by law to have a level of cleric if you are using another non full BAB class or suffer the +15 BAB.
The only full BAB class that has spellcraft available that I know is Hexblade.
I realized that the spellcraft skill is needed as a requirement.
This most defnatley happens most builds that rely on getting to cham by level 5.
It is almost required by law to have a level of cleric if you are using another non full BAB class or suffer the +15 BAB.
A Chameleon level 2 with Magical Aptitude(from Chameleon feat), 5 ranks in spellcraft, Arcane Focus and a 14 Int has a +11 - this means he can learn any 6th level spell or lower by taking 10. I'm not sure where's the compelling need to get more than 5 ranks of it is.
@MWAO: That's very true, but maxxed spellcraft ranks are very useful to stop the chameleon falling behind on spellcraft ability. The Arcane focus can help somewhat with +4 spellcraft, but unless you put your attribute boost into Int you'll still be behind somewhat. Also not everyone uses the arcane focus.
was thinking for some reason u would be able to qualifiy with it by level 8... I need more sleep.
Ninja 3/ Ranger 2 /Chameleon 10 / OotBI 5
I stuck with OotBI becuase of the full bab progression.
Go with divine and combat... and zen archery
For a zen archer without the divine metamagic...
Ninja 3/ Ranger 2 /Chameleon 10 / OotBI 5
I stuck with OotBI becuase of the full bab progression.
Go with divine and combat... and zen archery
IMHO there are better options than OotBI for the last 3 levels. Dire skill points, d8 HD, fact that ranged precision is very limiting (It really goes against the grain of a BAB 16+ build)...
I think that 2 more levels of ranger would be better for skills and give you some actual spells (good for meeting requirements). 2 levels of fighter would boost the build's feats and HP (maybe let you snag greater manyshot if you don't have it already) but does nothing for skills. +1 level of ninja would give you more Ki power, good skills and uber jumping fun (plus ninja 4 is a +1 BAB level). Note that starting new classes (as in the case of the fighter) gives your saves a boost too.
There may be other useful dips available from PrCs like through Ranger +1 for endurance then Horizon Walker for desert mastery. If you look around I'm sure you'll find better options for skills, HD, saves, and abilities.
).It 's a divine chameleon (I think all chameleon should specialize either in divine or arcane making wis or int (the primary stat)
I checked several combination and I noticed that my final build is already in #1 :D
So:
human, 36 point buy,
stats:
14 str
14 dex
14 con
14 int
16 wis
10 cha
2 ranger/2 monk (unearthed arcana variant passive way school)/cloistered cleric (trickery and luck domain)/ 5 chameleon
probably I will finish with 3 human paragon (High wisdom is very important for this character) and two prc (master thrower maybe)
feats:
Hu: Ablelearner
1: imp thougness
3: zen archery
6: power attack(?)
9: undecided but maybe leadership because or party will need more spellcaster.
Ranger: rapid shot
Monk1: combat expertise
Monk2: Improved trip
I had 49k gp to spend and I bought:
+4 wis
+4 str
+2 con
+2 dex
+1 res. cloak
extend metamagic rod lesser.
HP:92(107 with false life) Skillpoints:103 saves:17/11/18(with divine focus)
Strategy: every evening I change my aptitude focus to arcane and have a rest. in the morning I memorize some arcane spell and cast them with my extend rod (every spell lasts 20 hours): greater mage armor, greater magic weapon (for my bow or my fists or my flachion.. I wish I had more money to buy one more rod
), false life (or darkvision...). Then I change to either divine or combat focus. At level 15 in this way I really can use 3 aptitude focus a day.
My AC quite high:
10+ 3 dex +6 mage armor +7 wis=26 (I'll buy some deflection, natural, shield bonus things when I have some money)
With combat focus my attack with my composite longbow (+4 str) (floating feat: weapon focus for example
):20/15 with rapid shot 18/18/13 not bad I think
Any suggestion?
and an important question:
Can I use zen archery for ranged touch attack (Adept scorching ray :D)? It seems logical to me but there is no rule for that.
THX
:D
PS looks good otherwise
That should really, really chew into the average day after a while. Other than providing the key skill, how does Cleric really help your character out? When Ranger 2/Ninja 3/Chameleon 10/Master Thrower 5 has a +16 BAB, can do all kinds of dangerous things, and has roughly the same amount of Wisdom synergy...sudden invisibility usable 14 times per day can be quite effective...full attack via throwing weapons, turn invisible, move 5'. Repeat.
I've started a new character some days ago (a chameleon surprisingly
It 's a divine chameleon (I think all chameleon should specialize either in divine or arcane making wis or int (the primary stat)
The problem I have with such a build is that you're giving up the eventual +16 BAB without gaining the real spellcasting power that a Cleric 20 will have or divine metamagic. Also, it isn't clear that switching foci like that is really practical. You're spending an hour to switch, then another hour to memorize arcane spells, then another hour to be a divine chameleon, and finally another hour to pray.
That should really, really chew into the average day after a while. Other than providing the key skill, how does Cleric really help your character out? When Ranger 2/Ninja 3/Chameleon 10/Master Thrower 5 has a +16 BAB, can do all kinds of dangerous things, and has roughly the same amount of Wisdom synergy...sudden invisibility usable 14 times per day can be quite effective...full attack via throwing weapons, turn invisible, move 5'. Repeat.
uh, thanks for the reply
-I don't really feel that I need 16 bab.. one extra attack with -15?
-of course I won't have the spellcasting power of a 20th level spellcaster
-switching foci gives me +6 ac (mage armor), +2 attack and dmg and other boni. At level 12 I don't need to do this any more.
-your build is also good, but:
-has less saves (much less
)-less feats (much less)
-Doesn't have the luck domain (I like it very much)
-sudden invisibility works only for one round (or less if the opponent has true seeing)
-human paragon levels give me +2 wis and I will be a 3th level spellcaster so I can take feats like craft wondorous items
Divination, Imbue with Spell Ability, Make Whole, and Augury as arcane spells, for example. And stone shape at 4th level rather than 5th as sorcerer/wizard gets. Nothing major really, but they're new possibilities for a mainly arcane/combat chameleon.
The problem is that I have only 3 turning attempt (cha:10). how can I get two more? I don't want to lose any more feat. I could buy a +4 cha item, but it's too expensive
. Is there any item (core) which gives more turning?I like Divine Vigor a lot - 2*character level in hp. By casting Eagle's Splendor, you in essence get a faster move and 20 extra temporary hit points. Good for the battles you know you're going to fight.
Nightsticks from Libris Mortis give an additional 4 turning attempts.
I think I will modify my build: I don't like persistant spells (specially combined with divine metamagic), but divine metamagiced quicken spell would be good
The problem is that I have only 3 turning attempt (cha:10). how can I get two more? I don't want to lose any more feat. I could buy a +4 cha item, but it's too expensive
Can a chameleon choose his spells from more than one spell list (at one time. for example: prot from energy from the ranger spellist as a 2nd level spell and lesser restoration form the paladin's as a 1st level spell) or he has to choose a spellcasting class and choose his daily spells only from there?
Me and my DM have a different standpoint
I figured he picked one spell list for that day and he stuck to it.
FE: Chameleon takes divine focus and takes the cleric's spell list, next day, she takes divine focus, and takes the adepts list.
you can change it day by day but not bits and peices... thats way too broken.
I could see how it could be interpreted the other way (it only says 'spell list' rather than 'spell lists') but I don't think it's fully restrictive in that sense. It does not say that all of your spells must be chosen from the same spell list, and the timing could be interpreted as "when you choose a spell, it must come from an arcane spell list".
Some clarification here would be helpful.
The big balance problem with the Chameleon is the designers think the class does one thing, when it really does another. They seem to think of it as being some kind of superspy class when it really is a warrior on steroids who happens to cast spells. When's the last time someone had to pretend to be a functional cleric of a non-specific deity? Just because you can cast a cure light wounds doesn't mean you're going to be able to lead a service for Hextor.
I also don't think they remembered that the Adept was a core spell list - that's the kind of misstep that an optimizer can take huge advantage of in a game - it is one thing if you're taking from really odd PrC spell lists, but why shouldn't the Chameleon be taking spells from the Adept list?
Chameleon takes divine focus and takes the cleric's spell list, next day, she takes divine focus, and takes the adepts list.
you can change it day by day but not bits and peices... thats way too broken.
I personally, would say if you want to pick them, be my guest, just your other spell slots wont be taken up, or the 3rd level slots for spells count for 1st level ranger spells, 4th slots for 2nd.. etc.
Anyways, it is just WAY to broken to be able to choose intense druid spells, some 4th level ranger spells, and all the cleric goodie buff spells...
If you could divine focus twice, and you choose 2 different spell lists, i see no problem, like it would be recreating a cleric/adept etc.
I second the adept spell list. That thing has a load of goodies. Too bad I dont think you can use the witch spell list in the DMG...
just my my two cents
:D
IIRC, you can only choose the Divine focus once per day, it specifically states you prepare your spells in the morning.
:D
Nah, you can choose it as many times as you can choose a focus. Unfortunately, you can't prepare spells multiple times in one day unless you are very fast.
Nah, you can choose it as many times as you can choose a focus. Unfortunately, you can't prepare spells multiple times in one day unless you are very fast.
I considered going dragon disciple instead of chameleon but the chameleon just has to much to offer nice dose of magic fun
.Am a bit confused as to the lack of changling/warshaper builds here i thought that would make a great character when combined with the chameleon (especially using the alter self/polymorph/draconic polymorpgh goodies at later levels) am i missing something?
As an aside I would like to congratulate mommy was an orc for a great and useful thread I have harvested many an idea from it cheers
There's four reasons I haven't put a lot of them in:
I don't think Changelings actually alter their form enough to turn on Warshaper - and DMs who disagree with me won't after a melee Changeling build gets +4 Str/Con and Reach by level 6.
Warshaper loses an additional BAB, making Chameleon 7 the practical end point for most builds. Chameleon 7 is nice, but Chameleon 10 is a lot better.
I think Chameleon is more valuable than the abilities granted by Warshaper. Which makes Warshaper an attachment on the end of a Chameleon build.
This is more of a campaign-neutral set of builds - there's no Faerun builds either
Am a bit confused as to the lack of changling/warshaper builds here i thought that would make a great character when combined with the chameleon (especially using the alter self/polymorph/draconic polymorpgh goodies at later levels) am i missing something?
As an aside I would like to congratulate mommy was an orc for a great and useful thread I have harvested many an idea from it cheers
Hexblade 4/ Warshaper 4/ Chameleon 10/ Dragon Disciple 2
+15 BAB
+6 Str, +4 Con
+2 Additional 6th lvl spells
+1 Natural armor
or this:
Hexblade 4/ Warshaper 4/ Chameleon 8/ Dragon Disciple 4
+16 BAB
+8 Str, +4Con
+3 Additional 5th lvl spls
+2 natural armor
or even this:
Barbarian 1/ hexblade 2/ Ranger 1/ Warshaper 4/ Chameleon 8/ Bear warrior 1/ Frostrager 3
+17 BAB
+4 Str, +4 Con(+20 Str, +6 Con in bear form)
+4 natural armor(frost rage)
:D
Ability Boon (Ex): At 4th level, when choosing an aptitude focus, you also gain a +2 competence bonus to an ability score of your choice. This bonus lasts until you change your aptitude focus. At 7th level this bonus improves to +4, and at 10th level to +6.
And
Double Aptitude (Ex): At 7th level, you can adopt two aptitude focuses in the same amount of time it previously took for you to adopt one. For example, you could adopt both the combat focus and the wild focus to mimic a ranger, or the divine focus and arcane focus to mimic a mystic theurge. You can't adopt the same aptitude focus twice simultaneously. You can still only adopt as many focuses per day as indicated by your aptitude focus ability.
So when you adopt an aptitude focus you also gain a stat bonus. So if you adopt 2 or 3 aptitudes focuses do you get 2 or 3 stat gains?
So you just get 1 bonus to an ability score.
Ability Boon (Ex): At 4th level, when choosing an aptitude focus, you also gain a +2 competence bonus to an ability score of your choice.
Double Aptitude (Ex): At 7th level, you can adopt two aptitude focuses in the same amount of time it previously took for you to adopt one.
But at tenth level can you not adopt up two 3 different aptitude foci? You don't have to choose them at the same time.
Or am I reading the adopt multiple foci wrong. Can you not gain the benefits of the warrior focus and the divine focues at the same time (for example)?
FE: I choose divine and combat, we come across a series of hallways trapped to the max, and with no rouge in sight, i think, hey, I don't feel like making a lot of saves againts easily avoidable traps, so... WHAMMY I switch out my combat focus for that day for the trapfinding ability in sneak focus. unfortunatley, you cant change back due to you using up all your focuses.
I hope that poorly thought out example helped.
thanks.
Still, getting +6 to three stats at 10th level would be neat in a "holy crap that's broken" way.
I´ll be playing my next adventurer, and would like to try out the chameleon.
We are 4 players and those are:
Human tripper
Cleric SwordDancer
Wizard Incantatrix
We´ll be starting at lvl 1, and because of the disposition, I would assume the role of skill monkey/open locker/trapfinder.
Because of that, at least a lvl of rogue must be included. Assuming that the tripper and cleric would be in the frontline, maybe I should do better staying back with the wizard, and so, focus on archery or spells.
I´m kinda out of ideas. My last character was a tripper, and I´ve already played a master thrower and a arcane trickster before.
I´ve looked at the warlock, but by being a ranged touch and assuming some of the monster would be tripped, that wouldn´t help me much.
What do you think guys?
Halfling
Rogue 4/ Marshal 1/ Chameleon 8/ master thrower 5/ xxxx 2(full BAB class or PrC)
marshal aura(motivate dexterity)
master thrower tricks(palm throw/Trip Shot/weak spot)
remember the Trip Shot trick form master thrower is an Opposed Roll...... your Dex VS thier Str or Dex......... marshals aura will boost you Dex Check.
for more on this type of idea look here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=353356
:D
Rogue 4/ Ranger 1/ Pyrokineticist 5/ Chameleon 10
gives good skills
At Will 5d6 ranged touch attack and can Add Sneak attack to this
6th lvl Arcane & Divine Spells
20th lvl caster
:D
:D
or psionic race(elan,etc....)
As you're going to have a higher than average AC and hp than your typical Rogue at some point, I'd go with the TWF Melee Expert - the advantage is that you can use the TWF feats on thrown weapons for the moment until the really strong Chameleon features kick in.
Just pick out your favorite Rogue TWF Melee Expert feats.
Then I'd also go Combat/Arcane focus eventually - which means you can favor Int over Wisdom - you'll need it for the skills. Dexterity is your other good stat.
So how about this build: Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon 10/5 levels of +1 BAB class? Classes such as Dervish, Nightsong Enforcer, Rogue 3-4, Invisible Blade, Fighter 2, etc...work. Swashbuckler is so you get a bonus to damage, not so you deliberately max out Int. Dex is your primary stat. Illumian if you can get it with the one that uses Dex for bonus spells.
How's that sound?
Ok, so here´s the deal.
I´ll be playing my next adventurer, and would like to try out the chameleon.
We are 4 players and those are:
Human tripper
Cleric SwordDancer
Wizard Incantatrix
17
16
16
15
14
14
Maybe I´ll try to focus on ranged rogue, instead of a melee one since there´s already the tripper and the cleric out there. The pyro if a cool concept because I can enchant my arrows with fire adding plus 2d6 to dmg.
Your build is almost the standard and most optimized one, but will probably end in a master thrower concept, and I´ve already played a MaT. Also, to notice that I couldn´t (or else shouldn´t) wear armor for the arcane focus for not incurring in ASF. The only problem with the pyro is that it will eventually delay the chameleon further more.
Rogue 2 (For evasion)
Ranger 2 (For rapid shot)
Marshall 1 (For dex to attack)
Chameleon mixed with Pyro
As I mentioned before the problem I see is that it will delay the chameleon.
:D
human able learner and city slicker
while not any more terribly effective in the general sense, this build does yield a whopping 35 caster level for purposes of craft magic arms and armor.
i dont really know what good this does you until you can take the epic crafting feats, but its still cool.
And at 2nd level, you'll be able to have an AC of 16(not bad for a Rogue) unarmored and turn invisible 4 rounds a day.
I'm not really a big fan of Pyro. Why play a Warlock who doesn't have Invocations at the cost of a feat?
Mommy I´ve rolled good stats, meaning:
17
16
16
15
14
14
swashbuckler 1 fighter 1 stoneblessed 3 chameleon 10 battlesmith 5
human able learner and city slicker
while not any more terribly effective in the general sense, this build does yield a whopping 35 caster level for purposes of craft magic arms and armor.
i dont really know what good this does you until you can take the epic crafting feats, but its still cool.
:D
are you sure,............. i was under the impression that it simply allowed you to Also be considered a different race (for feats and PrC) but that you remained your original race.
:D
You don't lose your original race(or its abilities). You just have an extraordinary ability which changes you from that original race to the new race in terms of all game effects that want to know what type and subtype you are.
So a Stoneblessed(Dwarf) Human has the human bonus feat and +1 skill point/level as those are part of the abilities he gets from being the actual race that he is. However, when he tries to qualify for Chameleon, there's a game effect which requires someone to be human. But his extraordinary ability now comes into play and shows his subtype to be humanoid(dwarf) - so he doesn't qualify.
The same thing would happen if a Ranger with the favored enemy(human) came up to him - no extra damage.
yes, but it doesnt state that you lose your previous race. a stone blessed human doesnt lose their bonus feat any more than they gain the stability trait. look at the example. the grimlock is still a grimlock barbarian, it is not a goliath barbarian. also notice the type doesnt change. the grimlock in teh example is a monterous humanoid, not humanoid (dwarf)
so if we drop a level of chameleon to add fighter 2 pre-chameleon the caster level is 34. if we drop battlesmith to 4 the caster level is 32
this way we dont become a dwarf until after we are finished with chameleon
so this still works:
swashbuckler 1 fighter 2 stoneblessed 2 chameleon 10 stoneblessed 3 battlesmith 4
You do get the +7 BAB, +3 to all saves, and the 4 skill points per level, though...
so this still works:
swashbuckler 1 fighter 2 stoneblessed 2 chameleon 10 stoneblessed 3 battlesmith 4
You don't have to go to the Master Thrower route - I think personally, I'd go with Invisible Blade. However, with those stats, I'd definitely swap out Rogue for Ninja - Ninja 2/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon 10/Invisible Blade 5. Straightforward, decent saves, and a pretty sick unarmored AC. Even at low levels, your unarmored AC won't be bad.
And at 2nd level, you'll be able to have an AC of 16(not bad for a Rogue) unarmored and turn invisible 4 rounds a day.
I'm not really a big fan of Pyro. Why play a Warlock who doesn't have Invocations at the cost of a feat?
Don´t know if my DM allows ninja. The invisible blade would implicate a melee build, rather than ranged one.
The only thing I like with the Pyro is that in 5lvl´s would give you 5d6 ranged free, whilst the Warlock needs 9lvl´s for this. Besides that, investing in ranger will give you Rapid shot, that´s always good with the +2d6 to arrows with Pyro. What do you think mommy?
Rogue 4/ Ranger 1/ Marshal 1/ Pyro 4
gives the following:
+7 BAB
saves +9/+10/+3
2d6 sneak attack
4d6 ranged touch attack(6d6 ranged touch Sneak Attack....AT WILL)
uncanny dodge
evasion
Marshal aura(Motivate Intelligence)....affects Search and Disable Device skills and will Aid the incantatrix in your party with Spellcraft checks
then when you add on Chameleon...............it just gets better
Rogue 3/ Ranger 2/ Marshal 1/ Pyro 4
gives an extra feat and saves but you lose uncanny dodge
:D
+6 Unnamed to 6 skills means that you're getting 44 skill points for those 4 levels of Warlock - or in other words, essentially making Warlock an 11 skill point class. Even if you later on take 8 levels after finishing Chameleon, that's still 52 points or a 6.5 skill point class. Sure, Climb and Jump aren't the best things, but they're nice to have some free skill ranks in. And the ability to take 10 on a UMD check means that at 20th level, you'll be able to toss a 9th level spell at 19th caster level if you want without fear of failure. If you have Spellcraft 5, Decipher Script 5, UMD 23, and a Charisma of 14, that's a 39. So if you just get +1 more, you can read any scroll you want...
Weapon Afire doesn't appear to work on an actual bow, only on the projectile - or there's some odd reason they spend a line and a half on it. In any case, you're talking about something that is only happening after 4 levels of Pyro - which shouldn't be happening until level 16 at the minimum.
Ninja is the Ninja from Complete Adventurer - which if your DM is allowing Chameleon shouldn't be that troublesome to get.
Finally, Invisible Blade tends to be both a melee and ranged build - if you pick daggers, you get +3d6 Sneak when you throw them and you're going to be taking 2 ranged attack feats with it anyway. As this is something you're not taking until level 16, what you can do is take Farshot at level 15, then lock the Chameleon feat into WF: Dagger at level 16 and 17 to qualify for Invisible Blade, then pick up WF: Dagger with your level 18 feat.
Don´t know if my DM allows ninja. The invisible blade would implicate a melee build, rather than ranged one.
The only thing I like with the Pyro is that in 5lvl´s would give you 5d6 ranged free, whilst the Warlock needs 9lvl´s for this. Besides that, investing in ranger will give you Rapid shot, that´s always good with the +2d6 to arrows with Pyro. What do you think mommy?
to get lots of Sneak Attacks......Ninja seems good , as they can get invisibility at 2nd lvl.
how about this then:
Ninja 2/ Warlock 3/ Chameleon 10/ Human Paragon 3/ xxxxxx 2
:D
I like particulary the invocations: See the Unseen, spiderwalk and entropic warding.
EDIT: Another problem I see is that I can´t wear armor if I´m planning to choose the arcane focus with this build.
What focus do you advise? By using warlock, I can´t boost my blast with the melee focus...
Necessary Item in any case: Rod of Lesser Extend Spell...
My DM doesn´t allow ninja because of the oriental thematics. Maybe you´re right with the Warlock mommy. If we see, the Pyro is only usefull for the ranged attack, something that can be obtained with warlock for a less compromise. Invocations are good, I really appreciate the lesser one that dispells at will, that´s really something to remind off. Maybe it was good to delay chameleon one lvl for the 3d6 blast.
I like particulary the invocations: See the Unseen, spiderwalk and entropic warding.
EDIT: Another problem I see is that I can´t wear armor if I´m planning to choose the arcane focus with this build.
What focus do you advise? By using warlock, I can´t boost my blast with the melee focus...
Looking at warlock, and contructing the build, made me realized that warlock doesn´t synergize that well with the Cham. The problem is that rapid shot, and the combat focus don´t give you bonus to your damage, that otherwise with a bow you would get.
We're talking about the ability to do a 10d6 attack at will - when a Wizard of 10th level can cast a Fireball and do the same kind of damage to everyone. At will is nice, but at 20th level, 35hp isn't going to mean that much unless your target has no idea where you are.
The thing that makes Warlock great for a Chameleon build is the easy access to that UMD take 10 - making it possible to easily control if scrolls or staves work in a normal game.
I'd guess you'd get 2* the normal spells. I tend to avoid 2 casters as the benefits of casting 2* the number of spells with increased MAD doesn't seem to be as effective as simply casting 1 set and taking the combat focus for extremely unusual large bonuses to hit.
What happens if a character takes arcane & divine focus? Does he get double the number of spells per day, like the number of spells per day for arcane spells and the number of spells per day with cleric?
Looking at warlock, and contructing the build, made me realized that warlock doesn´t synergize that well with the Cham. The problem is that rapid shot, and the combat focus don´t give you bonus to your damage, that otherwise with a bow you would get.
Human
2 Lvl Monk/ 4lvl Hexblade/ 10 lvl Chamelion/ 4 Lvl with good BAB
Why?
- You get Evasion+Mettle (my number one)
- "Practiced Spellcaster" gives you the prequisits to choose Craft Wonderous Items and Craft Arms and Armor as your 2nd lvl Chamelion Feat. As you can choose any Spelllist, well take a look around. Shadowlord (UE) hast "Improved Invisibillity" as a 2nd grade spell and a Chamelion has to be first lvl only to cast ist...so it is pretty cheap to create a divice that gives you ImpIn 24/7 :D
I´m sure there ar other spells...
- You get some nice feats from Monk + Flurry
- You have a Familiar to boost your saves
Starting Stats (32 pb)
St:10
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:14
Wis: 14
Cha: 14
I know that Charisma is a dump slot but for this build I have to go for 14 because of the Arcane Resistance.
Feats:
1. Able Learner/City Slicker
3. Practiced Spellcaster
6. ???
What other feats?
I was thinking to choose "pierce magical protection on 9th lvl. Before that I choose Mage Slayer as that 2nd lvl Chamelion feat.
So for as long as I choose another feat at 2nd lvl the Pierce magical Protection is not active and i don´t suffer the conseqencens for my Spellcaster lvl. But when I´m fet up with magic, I choose Mage Slayer and the Pierce magical Protection kicks in.
I was thinking to choose "pierce magical protection on 9th lvl. Before that I choose Mage Slayer as that 2nd lvl Chamelion feat.
So for as long as I choose another feat at 2nd lvl the Pierce magical Protection is not active and i don´t suffer the conseqencens for my Spellcaster lvl. But when I´m fet up with magic, I choose Mage Slayer and the Pierce magical Protection kicks in.
That seems like a decent idea for a buffer too. Cast all your spells, and it doesn't matter that your CL then drops by 8.
Rogue 1 - Able Learner, Point Blank Shot
Ranger 2 - Precise Shot
Monk 2 - Zen Archery
Chameleon 10
I think that the persistant divine metamagic is not worth it. Firs it´s passible of a dispell, and it occupies 3 feats.
What do you think of the feats? I would only have another free feat in 9th lvl. Also, I don´t know if monk 2 is that good. The only feat worth it from monk is deflect arrows.
If you think persistent divine metamagic/evasion isn't worth it, I'd go with a Ranger 2/Ninja 2/Fighter 1 - sure, you lose a couple of the monk feats, but you gain essentially Improved Invisibility usable for 3-14 rounds a day as a swift action. And when you still have the +2 to Will Saves from not having used them up, that gives you saves of +5/6/2 for 5 levels. Perfectly respectable.
I think that the persistant divine metamagic is not worth it. Firs it´s passible of a dispell, and it occupies 3 feats.
What do you think of the feats? I would only have another free feat in 9th lvl. Also, I don´t know if monk 2 is that good. The only feat worth it from monk is deflect arrows.
Meaning, I would have to take Cleric 1 to get the extend spell feat. Two more feats for just a persistent per day. Is that worth it mommy?
The major problem with the Zen Monk ones is that they're pretty weak from levels 3-6 - once they can persist Swift, Haste at 7th level, they get a little nastier.
The important thing to remember about them is that they're more of a Cleric Archer build than a Ranger Archer build - you don't need Rapid Shot or possibly Zen Archery that early in the build.
Well, I can´t take ninja...
Meaning, I would have to take Cleric 1 to get the extend spell feat. Two more feats for just a persistent per day. Is that worth it mommy?
I can´t use ninja, so the ideia was using martial and divine focus together. Martial will raise my damage output, for all my arrows using rapid shot, and divine will give me good divine spells and also arcane spells via Adept.
I started as Rogue 1, and haven´t decided which to go next.
My stats are:
14 STR
16 DEX
16 CON
17 WIS
15 INT
14 CHA
Was thinking about Ranger 2 and Monk 2. It´s true my BAB isn´t going to be THAT great, but I´ll try to compensate with the boost´s in Wis. Help me out here
I think with those stats being about as roughly even as they are, I'd go Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Chameleon 10/5 levels of +1 BAB PrC - it is an easier build to play 1-20. Admittedly, you're not as freakishly tough on the high end, but at the low end, you get a lot more interesting things out of it. And you do end up with a +16 BAB for epic. Finally, by putting your attribute bonus on Dexterity and having Weapon Finesse, you're going to be pretty hard to hit and you're going to hit easily too.
Admit that I have a Cha of 14, that means that I couldn´t use all of my turn atempts to reduce a persistent spell.
14 STR
16 DEX
16 CON
17 WIS
15 INT
14 CHA
Rogue 1
Ranger 1
Cleric 1
Monk 2
Chameleon 10
Any class really 5
I believe that this is the real jack of all trades, because he can really do anything. Ok, the dispell is a pain, but if you get dispelled, assume a more defensive position and use fireballs, lightning bolts, etc. Hell, Lightning bolt and scorching rays can also be shared by both focus! That means that at lvl 12 you´ll get 8 scorching rays and 8 lightning bolts!! Adept I love you! :D
EDIT: Choose Gond as a deity and so choose domains: Earth and Planning. Earth will grant you 3+Cha more turns and Planning will grant you extend Spell. Finish the build with lvl´s of Pious Templar for mettle and bonus feat´s.
Also, most turn powers only work with ordinary Turn Undead attempts, not the elemental turnings.
I´ve been thinking, and actually I´m convinced that the best focus to take are arcane & divine ones. Sure you don´t get those +2 to hit and to attack, but those can easily obtained with buff spells.
EDIT: Choose Gond as a deity and so choose domains: Earth and Planning. Earth will grant you 3+Cha more turns and Planning will grant you extend Spell. Finish the build with lvl´s of Pious Templar for mettle and bonus feat´s.
:D
:D
I'm not a big fan of the switchover that Carnivore mentions. It is legal by the RAW, but it also means the party has to spend an extra hour and 10 minutes waiting for you after sunup to get going. Something like that happening would make me really likely to restrict the Chameleon's spells as a DM.
After all, you could start as Arcane/Divine in the beginning of the day, switch to Combat/Stealth or Wild, then switch back to Combat/Arcane to get a total of 3 sets of spells.
Tough luck... Even so, do you think that the melee focus in conjuntion with arcane or divine is THAT superior to both arcane and divine?
I must agree with mommy in relation to the switchover. Besides the fact that it´s a bit cheesy, I couldn´t tell my whole party to wait one hour or even 10minutes so I could get more spells.
I can´t think of Chameleon as a 2nd rate Mystic Theurge because he would still, even without the divine power, be a 2nd fighter with a BAB of +14 and also with a great AC because of the monk lvl´s. A mystic theurge hasn´t got good AC, nor medium BAB, he has them quite low. Besides that, Mystic hasn´t got any ability boon´s, and no mimic efects.
EDIT: One more thing, Mystic Theurge can´t double his Scorching Rays and Lightning bolts. No Adept there.
After all, you could start as Arcane/Divine in the beginning of the day, switch to Combat/Stealth or Wild, then switch back to Combat/Arcane to get a total of 3 sets of spells.
incorrect:
beginning of day choose Arcane/Divine focuses(2 of 3 focuses per day) later refocus to combat(3rd of 3 focuses), cannot refocus to an additional Arcane or Divine since they are both active. it is not possible to get more than 1 Arcane or divine if you use 2 focuses at once. it also is not possible to get more than 1 divine focus per day and get extra spells.
As for doubling Scorching rays and Lightning Bolts? Why do 42 on average with a spell, when you can fire 5 arrows doing an average of 16 or so hp, and likely hit with at least 3. While only using a Mighty +4, non magical bow.
I can´t think of Chameleon as a 2nd rate Mystic Theurge because he would still, even without the divine power, be a 2nd fighter with a BAB of +14 and also with a great AC because of the monk lvl´s. A mystic theurge hasn´t got good AC, nor medium BAB, he has them quite low. Besides that, Mystic hasn´t got any ability boon´s, and no mimic efects.
EDIT: One more thing, Mystic Theurge can´t double his Scorching Rays and Lightning bolts. No Adept there.
To begin the math let´s assume that we are at 7th lvl Chameleon, because that´s the lvl where you get the double aptitude. Being that, our character will be at a 12th lvl and caster lvl 14. That means a scorching ray of 12d6 and Lightning bolts of 10d6. So a mean of 36dmg for Scorching and 30dmg for Lighning bolt.
Each ray requires a ranged touch attack, so you´ll probably be hitting more times than a normal ranged attack. So assuming a composite longbow +4 and the +4 to damage rolls that means a mean of 12dmg per arrow. Assuming you´ll have divine power casted upon you, you´ll have the BAB +12 so that means 3 attacks, and probably +1 because of RapidShot. So at the best of your chances (and assuming you don´t have rapidshot) you´ll be doing 36dmg, so equal do a scorching ray just different because it isn´t a ranged touch attack.
Now, what you say mommy, makes sense if you considerer melee builds with TWF or Master Thrower builds in which each attack transforms into two attacks with palm throw. In those builds I´ll give thumbs up to you, because +4 to damage in each attack is great, and outperforms any character. The only problem is that Master Thrower will come up too late. Only solution is take a dip into MaT early in the build.
Cast Divine Favor Persistent(+3 hit, damage)
Cast Divine Power Persistent(+4 damage from 18 str)
Cast GMW(+4 hit, damage)
Use a Necklace of Prayer Beads
Rapid Shot - even though you haven't gotten this from Ranger, you use the floating feat for this
That turns the damage into 1d8+15(19.5). Your likely to hit chance is going to be +21+Wis bonus - which should be around +8 by this point - Point buy 16 Wis+3 levelling+4 item+4 Chameleon. So +29/29/24/19 - on a creature with an AC of 27, you'll hit .95/.95/.9/.65 or 3.45 times a round. Or about 67 hp of damage. Even assuming a DR of 10, that's still 33 hp of damage.
Scorching Ray on the other hand will do an average of 14 per shot. You still have a miss chance of .95, making average damage 40. If the thing has Resistance to Fire 5, damage drops to 25.65.
And this is not taking into account that instead of starting out with a non-magical bow, could instead be using a +1 Flaming Bow - adding another 12 damage or that your character has better than average stats or that access to Haste by this level is pretty likely.
Each ray requires a ranged touch attack, so you´ll probably be hitting more times than a normal ranged attack. So assuming a composite longbow +4 and the +4 to damage rolls that means a mean of 12dmg per arrow. Assuming you´ll have divine power casted upon you, you´ll have the BAB +12 so that means 3 attacks, and probably +1 because of RapidShot. So at the best of your chances (and assuming you don´t have rapidshot) you´ll be doing 36dmg, so equal do a scorching ray just different because it isn´t a ranged touch attack.
Also, how can you get two persistent spells? Assuming a Cha of 14. That´s 5 turn atempts. The floating feat must go to extra turning totalizing 9 turning´s. So, that´s only one divine metamagic. The only way is with Nightstick´s.
Ring of Spell Storing = 4K = cast Greater Dispel Magic into it.
And don't forget, you're caster level 18 from the Beads...
Mommy you can´t assume no one´s gonna dispell you...
Also, how can you get two persistent spells? Assuming a Cha of 14. That´s 5 turn atempts. The floating feat must go to extra turning totalizing 9 turning´s. So, that´s only one divine metamagic. The only way is with Nightstick´s.
I have two questions related do Chameleon from Races of Destiny. If I take a lvl of Cleric before I take a lvl on Chameleon and assuming Ill choose the divine focus how many divine spells can I cast in a day?
Assuming Ill take the divine and arcane focus together with double aptitude, I will cast the number of divine spells per day listed in the table of chameleon plus the number of arcane spells from the same table right? Meaning Ill have double the number of spells, half divine and half arcane?
Thanks in advance
Reply by Customer Service:
1) Chameleon levels do not stack with Previous caster levels. You would get your normal 1st level allotment as a cleric and then cast from your Chameleon chart for spells beyond those.
2) Your spells per day don't change, you just have more flexibility with Double Aptitude.
Thank You.
Zephreum Aristotle
Games Support
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496
"There is no true Freedom without Discipline."
2 - I'd write back the following question: "It says you get bonus spells for the Divine focus from Wisdom and the Arcane Focus from Intelligence. Does one apply both of them to the one set of spells?"
(btw, this is what makes me think that he's wrong)
3 - this particular guy used to be unaware that Wizards had a portion of their site dedicated to answering commonly asked questions.
Hi
Reply by Customer Service:
1) Chameleon levels do not stack with Previous caster levels. You would get your normal 1st level allotment as a cleric and then cast from your Chameleon chart for spells beyond those.
2) Your spells per day don't change, you just have more flexibility with Double Aptitude.
:D
1 - that's pretty straightforward
2 - I'd write back the following question: "It says you get bonus spells for the Divine focus from Wisdom and the Arcane Focus from Intelligence. Does one apply both of them to the one set of spells?"
(btw, this is what makes me think that he's wrong)
3 - this particular guy used to be unaware that Wizards had a portion of their site dedicated to answering commonly asked questions.
Will write back then mommy. Let´s hope that someother guy answer´s the question.
And no one can convince me otherwise :o)
Please quote this e-mail in any response.
***********************************************
Zephreum Aristotle
Games Support
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496
***********************************************
At least they´ve admitted the error. The problem is that the guy only further readed it the second time...
Double Aptitude (Ex): At 7th level, you can adopt two aptitude focuses in the same amount of time it previously took for you to adopt one. For example, you could adopt both the combat focus and the wild focus to mimic a ranger, or the divine focus and arcane focus to mimic a mystic theurge. You can't adopt the same aptitude focus twice simultaneously. You can still only adopt as many focuses per day as indicated by your aptitude focus ability.
What this says to me is that you can have two aptitudes at the same time, which both use up an aptitude for the day. So you could be an arcane/divine at the same time, using up two uses of aptitude focus and not one use. Thus, unless you are 10th level, if you go with two aptitudes at once, you can't change one aptitude until the next day.
I saw people talking about changing (for the sake of example), within a 24 hour period: Ftr/Wild to Arcane/Divine.
By my reading of the class, that would be four uses of aptitude focus, which you don't get. If you can double change for one use, that makes the class even better.
I read the class:
As allowing, at 10th level: Ftr/Wild to Ftr/Arcane
If the chameleon is a 7th-9th level chameleon, then selecting Ftr/Wild at the beginning of the 24 hour period means that is it for you. You have both aptitudes for 24 hours but can't change either of them for 24 hours. Also, a 7th-9th level cha could select Ftr aspect at the start of a 24 hour period, then add an aspect later on, like stealthy. Then the 7th-9th cha couldn't change from Ftr/Stealthy until 24 hours after adopting the Ftr aspect, at which time the 7th-9th cha could change out the ftr aspect but not the stealthy aspect.
Please advise, maybe I'm making this way more complicated than it is.
What this says to me is that you can have two aptitudes at the same time, which both use up an aptitude for the day. So you could be an arcane/divine at the same time, using up two uses of aptitude focus and not one use. Thus, unless you are 10th level, if you go with two aptitudes at once, you can change only one aptitude until the next day.
I saw people talking about changing (for the sake of example), within a 24 hour period: Ftr/Wild to Arcane/Divine.
I orginally posted this:
Thus, unless you are 10th level, if you go with two aptitudes at once, you can change only one aptitude until the next day.
when I meant to post this:
Thus, unless you are 10th level, if you go with two aptitudes at once, you can't change an aptitude until the next day.
So is my reasoning still correct? It appears that you may have glossed over my original posting error (which stayed for maybe 15 minutes)
Therefore, I submit a possible build (and feel free to comment/improve upon it)
Mystic Theuge Chameleon with high AC
Ninja 1/Marshal 1/Cleric 1/Monk 2/Chameleon 10
Feats: Able Learner, Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric), Craft Wondrous Item, Precocious Apprentice, Ascetic Mage (Using Precocious Apprentice to qualify for Ascetic Mage, which is not as bad as using it to qualify for a PrC)
lvl 12, 15, Chameleon flexible feats are open to suggestions/custom tailoring to a campaign. I figure having Craft Wondrous and enough caster level to take Craft Magic Arms & Armor as your chameleon flexible feat will give this Chameleon some good options. Specifically, making stat items and magic bracers with armor properties (suggestion from Arms & Equipment) are in order.
Advantages: Take determined spellcaster (+ Cha mod to penetrate SR) from marshal.
Dex, Wis, & Cha to AC Wis from Ninja and Cha from Ascetic Mage Yes, this requires a small bit of creative interpretation, but these are the CO boards after all.
Disadvantage: Horrendous BAB (unless you can convince your DM to go partial base attack variant like I play). Zen archery + Cha comp bonus to Wis can help make up for this nicely.
I would like to see some Mystic Theurge Chameleon builds though. Mommy's compilation is sorely lacking without them. So build and post people!
The other problem is that Mystic Theurge Chameleons, particularly with Arcane Hierophant now available from Races of the Wild, are just lousy except from levels 12-15.
Mystic Theuge Chameleon with high AC
Ninja 1/Marshal 1/Cleric 1/Monk 2/Chameleon 10
Dex, Wis, & Cha to AC Wis from Ninja and Cha from Ascetic Mage Yes, this requires a small bit of creative interpretation, but these are the CO boards after all.
A Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10 stomps all over a Chameleon Theurge except at levels 12-15. And in most games, your build is going to have a BAB of +1 at 6th level...
Awww, too bad. Well, I thought you only had to have 1st level arcane, but I did post that I didn't have the book in front of me. After searching my house four times, it is still MIA. I'll edit my post.
A monk's AC and ninja's do not stack due to both being insight bonuses to their armor class correct?
This is also neglecting the fact that Ascetic Mage negates all Wisdom to AC bonuses and replaces them with a Charisma to AC bonus.
Grrrr, my missing Complete Adventurer is really getting me peaved right now. Anyway, you aren't getting your Wisdom bonus to AC twice. You get your Wisdom bonus to AC and your Cha bonus to AC. That's the theory anyway. Someone can quote Ninja for me.
A Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10 stomps all over a Chameleon Theurge except at levels 12-15. And in most games, your build is going to have a BAB of +1 at 6th level...
Only if you can't count. Druid 3 is +2 BAB, Wizard 3 is +1 BAB. Druid 3/Wizard 3 is +3 BAB at level 6.
Only if you can't count. Druid 3 is +2 BAB, Wizard 3 is +1 BAB. Druid 3/Wizard 3 is +3 BAB at level 6.
Base Classes:
- Barbarian - Rage is covered (need uncanny dodge?)
- Bard - Ranks in perform + arcane casting are a good approximation
- Cleric - Covered + lots of knowledge(religion) and Bluff to fake services and basic rituals?
- Druid - Need an animal companion? Spells + Shapechange (polymorph) covered
- Fighter - Covered
- Monk - Not good unarmed, need something to make up for it
- Paladin - Combat + Divine Covered, need a mount
- Ranger - Combat + Divine Covered, need an animal companion, maybe track + TWF/Precise Shot?
- Rogue - Evasion, SA, Stealthy Covered, need trapfinding?
- Sorcerer - Covered if you take some Spellcraft or Knowledge(arcana)
- Wizard - Covered if you take some Spellcraft or Knowledge(arcana)
PrCs:
- Arcane Archer - Not elf, irrelevant? Or Combat + Arcane + Elf disguise? Need ranged shots
- Arcane Trickster - None of the cool abilities, but Arcane + Sneaky
- Archmage - Too high level, but possible?
- Assassin - Combat/Sneaky + Arcane, SA
- Blackguard - Combat + Divine + SA?
- Dragon Disciple - Any way to do this?
- Duelist - Doable if monk is taken care of (a decent unarmored AC)
- Dwarven Defender - Not a dwarf, but manageable w/ polymorph?
- Eldritch Knight - Combat + Arcane
- Hierophant - Any way to do this?
- Horizon Walker - Combat + Divine might cover it a little?
- Loremaster - Any way to do this?
- Mystic Theurge - Covered
- Shadowdancer - Sneaky + Arcane might use spells that can mimic class aiblities (like the shadows)
- Thaumaturgist - Covered, basically
Say you wanted to use the class for its original purpose of emulating others. What levels would be important assuming you were looking to emulate as many classes as possible? (At least as a low level of it?) My basic thoughts about basic SRD classes/PrCs are below.
(use changeling as your race, although you get an xp penalty.. go human if you have a lenient dm that says as a chamelion you have the ability to cast polymorph)
ninja 1/swash 3/paladin 2/warshaper 4/chamelion 10
bab:
+3/4 +3 +2 +3 +7 1/2 = 16 1/4
wis to ac, int to dmg, cha to saves, fast healing 2 (!), immunity to crits + more goodies
also some playing around with that gives you:
ninja/swash 3/paladin 2/warlock 4/chamelion 7/elemental warrior (planar handbook) 4
xp penalties again, less if human, but some strange abilities!
no xp penalties:
ninja 2/swash 3/paladin 3/warlock 4/chamelion 7/tattoed monk 1
Say you wanted to use the class for its original purpose of emulating others. What levels would be important assuming you were looking to emulate as many classes as possible? (At least as a low level of it?)
Good idea. Here are my suggestions:
Base Classes:
- Monk - Not good unarmed, need something to make up for it
IUS as your floating feat, Combat and Arcane foci. Or the Monk's belt you were talking about.
PrCs:
- Dragon Disciple - Any way to do this?
- Hierophant - Any way to do this?
- Horizon Walker - Combat + Divine might cover it a little?
- Loremaster - Any way to do this?
The Draconic heritage spell [Drc] covers DD (but is it Sorc only? IDK), Divine focus + some metamagic for Heirophant (remember that they give up spellcasting levels), Polymorph + Arcane + Divine foci should cover Arcane heirophant, and the appropriate foci + a few knowledge skill ranks (or Bardic knowledge) will cover Loremaster.
Build choices: take the half-elf racial substitution level for half-elf bard 1 (RoD), use half-elf paragon and human paragon to advance warlock "casting"
8+16d8+3d6 hp (90.5 avg. hp), +11 BAB (+15 fractional), attacks +11/+6/+1, 94 + 23 x Int skill points, saves +7/+9/+12 (fractional +8/+14/+17)
Cha 16 (base) + 5 (level boosts) + 6 (enhancement item) + 5 (inherent, wish/tome) + 6 (competence, chameleon) + 4 (ability boosts) = 42 (+16)
HEP 1: Human Heritage (RoD)
1st: Able Learner (RoD)
3rd: Extra Music
6th: Complementary Insight (RoD)
HP 2: Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
9th: Extend Spell
Chm 2:
12th: Persistent Spell
15th: Divine Metamagic (Persistent)
18th:
Always max: Diplomacy, Use Magic Device.
Diplomacy 10 (skill mastery, take 10) + 23 (ranks) + 16 (Cha) + 3 (racial, half-elf paragon) + 9 (synergy, Complementary Insight) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 30 (competence, item) + 6 (beguiling influence, warlock) = 100
Use Magic Device 10 (skill mastery, take 10) + 23 (ranks) + 16 (Cha) + 2 (racial, half-elf paragon) + 3 (synergy, Complementary Insight) + 30 (competence, item) = 82
Pick 2 or 3 to max: Bluff, Disable Device, Search, Sense Motive, Survival.
Get some ranks: Concentration, Gather Information, Escape Artist, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Spot, Tumble.
Synergy skills: Bluff, Handle Animal (if riding is important), Jump, Knowledge (architecture and engineering), Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Search, Sense Motive, Survival.
Relevant abilities: Ability boost +2 (any) x2, bardic knowledge, bardic music (inspire courage +1, fascinate, soothing voice), domain powers, elven vision, persuasion, skill artistry (1 skill), skill mastery (1 + Int skills), turn undead.
My purposes, when constructing this build, were first to create a strong social character, and second to make a character that could easily provide skills that other party members lacked. The resulting character can easily keep up with the better diplomat builds, and with some tweaks, is as powerful as a maximized diplomat. Compare, for instance, the 155 Diplomacy build I linked in references. Gaining the magic-blooded template, substituting marshal 1, evangelist 2, and shadow thief of amn 2 for 5 chameleon levels, using the feats gained to pick up Negotiator and Persuasive, taking Item Familiar and Nymph's Kiss, and picking the Mind and Herald domains, boosts the character's Diplomacy check to 155 and allows them to make rushed checks at a -5 penalty instead of -10. Thus, they can make the check to turn a hostile opponent into a fanatic automatically; and meanwhile, unlike that master diplomat builds, they can also fight acceptably (because the combat focus is overpowered) and cast 4th-level arcane and divine spells, and have a good amount of latitude for picking up other skills.
However, for most practical purposes, focusing on the jack-of-all-trades aspect of the character in addition to getting high Diplomacy will yield a stronger character. The diplomatic chameleon, as shown above, should be able to perform any "reasonable" DC skill-based task without much difficulty, between their aptitude foci and casting. For instance, for the roles of negotiator and spy, they can have high social skills, beguiling influence from warlock, soothing voice from half-elf bard, and choose the arcane focus to use social spells from the bard list. For dungeoneer, they can have high ranks in Disable Device and Search, racial bonuses from half-elf paragon, use the stealth focus or use the divine focus to cast persistent find traps for trapfinding (and/or similar enhancement spells), and take the arcane focus for other sorts of utility magic, such as knock. For wilderness treks, they can choose wild focus to get woodland stride and divine focus to get access to the druid and ranger lists, switch their chameleon bonus feat to track, use entropic warding to make themselves untrackable, and have ranks in Survival and relevant Knowledges. They have bardic knowledge, and though their base check isn't that good, once they've switched their ability boon to Int and chameleon bonus feat to Obscure Lore (CV), they can make a half-way competent showing. Using dark one's own luck and the ability foci, they can customize their saves to anything they want on the fly. And, of course, for combat, they can use the combat focus, chameleon bonus feat, and arcane or divine focus to like any ordinary gish.
The diplomatic chameleon gets all skills in-class for many of their levels, from exemplar and Able Learner. They get three least invocations from warlock. They get chameleon casting, meaning both arcane and divine 6th-level spells from anywhere (or at least, anywhere your DM will let you have). They get two domains powers and turn undead. They get bardic music, and though their inspire courage and other class-level dependent bardic music abilities are weak, they can use alternative bardic music feat and change which one they have on a daily basis.
For the other feats, Nymph's Kiss is an excellent feat for the build, giving more skill points and a +2 bonus on all Cha checks, if you wish to play an exalted character. Smooth Talk and other feats that allow you to make rushed Diplomacy checks at lower penalties are good, though Smooth Talk itself, as a regional feat from Faerun, requires a DM willing to treat half-elves as humans for the purposes of taking Able Learner.
As for the diplomatic chameleon's class features, I'd recommend beguiling influence, dark one's own luck, and leaps and bounds as decent general choices for the three least invocations, but devil's sight, entropic warding, and spiderwalk are also good choices, and most of the others aren't bad choices. For cleric domains, good choices tend to be domains that grant feats, such as Planning for Extend Spell, or domains like Mind and Herald, which give bonuses to diplomacy. Since the diplomatic chameleon's real cleric casting is so weak, the spells a domain offers are irrelevant, and the best domain powers give a static bonus rather than one that scales with cleric level.
The diplomatic chameleon's major disadvantage is MAD. They get about as many skill points, on the whole, as a 4 + Int skills per level character, but they can use much more, so Int is an important ability for them. Cha is obviously also important. They need at least a 10 Wis so they can cast divine spells with ability boon, and they can use more if they want to cast spells with saves or for bonus spells. Str, Dex, and Con are important for the typical reasons, depending on what else the diplomatic chameleon is doing.
The specific choices I made above are more general guidelines than a specific build. A more combat-focused character might want to drop Complementary Insight and Extra Music for combat feats, and do something else with the level of bard. You could shift the skill focus from social skills (the reason I chose social skills was that they're the hardest to emulate with magic and chameleon class features) to any other combination you can envision. With clever use of the flexible bonus feat, you can make good use of even odd-ball skills like Appraise: take Appraise Magic Value (CV) to identify without the spell.
It's possible to improve your focus on Diplomacy using alternate class levels. Evangelist 2 (CD) will cut your penalties on rushed Diplomacy checks (for when you don't want to use soothing voice) to -5, and evangelist 4 will give you skill mastery for some social skills, freeing up the exemplar's skill mastery for other skills. Marshal (MHB) gets you free Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and the use of the marshal's minor and major auras, which you can use to further boost your Diplomacy checks or to help out the other members of your party in other ways. (Splashing marshal is almost certainly worthwhile; I avoided it above because I consider the class broken.) The guild thief (FRCS) or shadow thief of Amn (PGtF) can give you some boosts to Diplomacy and bonus feats, as well as sneak attack, uncanny dodge, and 6 + Int skills per level. Cloistered cleric (UA) is better than normal cleric, for the extra Knowledge domain and the 6 + Int skills for that level. In most cases, picking up other class levels involves sacrificing levels in chameleon, which hurts the character's casting and flexibility.
Beyond that, there are even more radical substitutions you can make. For instance, if you don't want to focus on making ridiculous Diplomacy checks, changing your race to human, substituting rogue levels for bard and half-elf paragon, and focusing on Int instead of Cha, can give you a character with an obscene number of skill points, higher save DCs for the chameleon's arcane focus, better checks on certain skills like Disable Device and Search, and some rogue class features like evasion and uncanny dodge. Exemplar also works and gets a different set of abilities more helpful for a pure skills character. Warlock can also be worthwhile for a different set of abilities, enhancing the build's spell-like abilities at the cost of skills.
References: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=371519 (+155 Diplomacy), http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331816, http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331816, http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=364168, http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=361514 (Diplomacy ideas),
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=360082&page=1&pp=30 (chameleon compilation).
A lot of that I think is more dependent on what skills you pick, but I think the Rogue Zen Archer Monk build(Rogue 1/Ranger 2/Cleric 1/Monk 2/Chameleon 10/Fighter 2/OotBI 2) falls into that ballpark. The eventual 38 Wisdom adds to AC, to hit, DCs of spells and stunning fist, Will Saves, etc...
All the following features:
Functional Rogue. Once you tack in the +3 to all wisdom skills and the initial Rogue level, he's basically a 6+Int skill character). Can Track almost by default.
Cleric Archer who with either polymorph or just Persistent Divine Power can melee or fire off arrows. Very high AC. 34 DC Stunning Fist in combo with Spiked Quarterstaff can do lots of hurt. Yet he's more mobile than the typical Cleric Archer.
While only able to cast 6th level spells, his 38 Wisdom at 20th level makes his spells DC competitive. He can also use Shugenja or Druid spells for 'Wizard' use.
Lots of feats, about 17 or so. Some not so great, but 17 feats is 17 feats.
Great Saves: +20/11/15 before stats. Could in theory be a +24 Fort if Combat/Divine bonuses stack - they're not specifically listed as being competence bonuses.
mommy was an orc: can you post a progression on this and key points? this sounds very key and interesting..i've been dying to try out the chameleon...;)..
Also in general, I'm not bothering to use campaign world specific material - i.e. Races, Complete, and Core material only. If your DM is crazy enough to allow Shiba Protector into a game when you've got a 30 Wisdom and use Wisdom to make your attack rolls, then feel free to use it.
Bah, what, you're not adding Wis to both Attack and Damage thanks to the Shiba Protector? A pox on your and your build, I say.
The first part of the build is:
Rogue 1
Ranger 1
Cleric 1(Planning Domain)
Monk 1: Stunning Fist
Monk 2: Combat Reflexes
Chameleon 1-10
Ranger 2
Fighter 1-2
OotBI 1-2
There's several spells in Complete Adventurer/Divine that have somewhat unusual effects with a Chameleon. By level 7, by using the Chameleon bonus feat, you should be able to get the Divine Metamagic working. Cast Eagle's Splendor to boost your turning attempts if you need to. Use this to cast Haste, Swift, Persistent. Then when slightly higher, cast Divine Power and/or Righteous Might - though I think Persistent Haste definitely has its charms, even at higher levels.
Your feats are as follows:
1: Able Learner, Point Blank Shot
3: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell
4: Stunning Fist
5: Combat Reflexes
6: Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell
9: Precise Shot
12: Zen Archery
Use the Chameleon bonus feat to take either Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, or Zen Archery, depending on what level you are and how it compares to your dexterity and what armor you're wearing. After 16th level, just start picking up the feats that you most want.
mommy was an orc: can you post a progression on this and key points? this sounds very key and interesting..i've been dying to try out the chameleon...;)..
Rogue1/Monk2/Wiz1/X1/Ur-Priest4/NarDemonbinder1/Chameleon10
Feats: Able Learner, Spell Focus (Evil), Iron Will, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Extra Spell (Animate Undead- Nar Demonbinder), Corpsecrafter, Destruction Retribution, Necromantic Presence
Skills to max: UMD, Search, Disable Device, and you can be the party "rogue" :P
Possible Choices for the Floating Feat: Necromantic Might, Item Creation, Tomb-Tainted Soul
Caster levels: Chameleon 20+20, Ur-Priest 24?, NarDemonbinder21?
Using these caster levels and a Rod of Undead Mastery, he could animate and control: 85x8 = 680 HD of undead. Each Orange Ioun Stone would add 16 more HD.
X1 can be anything. If I took cleric there with Planning and Undead, would I lose those feats when I picked up Ur-Priest? It would be very nice to get Divine Metamagic: Persistent in this build, but it's not necessary.
How would the Chameleon interact with the weird PrCs that use another class to calculate their caster level, like Ur-Priest and Nar Demonbinder? I was thinking you could make a "necromancer" type character that could animate an insane amount of undead, depending on how those stack. Here is what I have in mind:
Doesn't work at all - Chameleon foci don't interact with other classes. In essence, both of them would read Chameleon as being a non-spellcasting class.
That's one possible interpretation, but I don't think it's as clear cut as you're saying, unless there is something in the book clarifying this more than in the web version. The web version says:
You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.
It doesn't say the chameleon's abilities do not interact at all, it simply says you can't use them to qualify for anything. I'm not using it to qualify for anything. I'm using it's caster level to determine the overall caster level of another class. And it definitely gets a caster level. The Arcane Focus section says:
Your caster level is equal to twice your class level.
So for the Ur-Priest at least, which says you add half of all your other caster levels to it's caster level, it should work (as far as I know. I don't own the BoVD, and so am unsure as to the exact wording. I'm going with what is on crystalkeep. Let me know if it's incorrect).
The tricky part is with the Nar Demonbinder, which says you add your levels in one other spellcasting class to it. I agree with you there. Chameleon might not be considered a legitimate spellcasting class, but I could see it being argued either way.
By being a Chameleon without a focus, you wouldn't qualify to raise the Ur-Priest's caster level. That can't change by taking a spellcasting Aptitude focus.
(edit: in any case, Ur-Priest was updated to be advanced by half the levels in spellcasting classes by Complete Divine)
It doesn't say the chameleon's abilities do not interact at all, it simply says you can't use them to qualify for anything. I'm not using it to qualify for anything. I'm using it's caster level to determine the overall caster level of another class.
You're using the chameleon's abilities to qualify for the Ur-Priest's caster level boost.
"Caster level boost" is not an ability of the Ur-Priest. An Ur-Priest has a caster level, regardless of whether or not it has any other spellcasting classes. If it does have other spellcasting classes, you add them to it. If it doesn't, you don't. It's that simple. You're not qualifying for anything, in either case. If the Ur-Priest had no caster level at all independantly of other caster classes, then I'd say it would indeed be using those other classes to qualify for it's own caster level. But that is not the case.
(edit: in any case, Ur-Priest was updated to be advanced by half the levels in spellcasting classes by Complete Divine)
This is the thing that probably kills the idea, since alot of people seem to interpret this to mean only the actual class levels of classes that have their own specific spell lists, and not to include any "+1 caster level" PrCs. I could see that the Chameleon isn't really a spellcasting class, per say. And even if it were allowed to count as one by the DM, you'd only add 5 levels to your Ur-Priest caster level, not 20.
For that matter, the Chameleon's caster level is not considered caster levels for purposes of qualifying for other options. It doesn't have a caster level outside the class - so as an example, it can't use trigger items(although with UMD as a class skill, it shouldn't be too much of a problem)
Using the words Qualifying and Other Option is basically along the lines of stating, "If there is any question whatsoever, the answer is no..." It is one of the most open-ended statements that WotC ever used.
If it does have other spellcasting classes, you add them to it. If it doesn't, you don't. It's that simple.
Changeling Rogue 5 (Substitution)/Cabinet Trickster 5/Chameleon 8/Warshaper 2?
changeling
Rogue 2/ Ranger 2/ Warshaper 3/ Cabinet Trickster 5/ Chameleon 8
or
Rogue 2/ Ranger 2/ Warshaper 2/ Cabinet Trickster 5/ Chameleon 9
:D
My DM allows us to play Rangers without the combat styles and instead, they gain +1d6 SA at each combat style. I know it's not much but, it would net me another +1d6 SA...do you think that would be optimal or should I keep with the TWF?
:D
Cool...one question though. Why Ranger 2? I'm guessing for the needed BAB but, I also have an addage here.
My DM allows us to play Rangers without the combat styles and instead, they gain +1d6 SA at each combat style. I know it's not much but, it would net me another +1d6 SA...do you think that would be optimal or should I keep with the TWF?
Unless you plan on using Spring Attack alot, I'd say TWF. If you have, for example, 10d6 total Sneak Attack dice, adding another attack from TWF is like getting +10d6 extra Sneak Attack damage for that second ranger level, instead of +3d6 (assuming 3 attacks). Of course, all your attacks take a -2 to hit when TWF, and you have to make a full attack to use it. So if you're not planning on taking Improved and Greater TWF, then it is somewhat debateable which is better. But adding more attacks is the best way to make use of a large amount of sneak attack dice, and TWF is one of the ways to do that.
try this:
changeling
Rogue 2/ Ranger 2/ Warshaper 3/ Cabinet Trickster 5/ Chameleon 8
or
Rogue 2/ Ranger 2/ Warshaper 2/ Cabinet Trickster 5/ Chameleon 9
:D
Warshaper Requirements include +4 BAB.
When you choose the arcane focus it says you have access to all spells from all arcane classes, but it also says that you prepare them as a normal wizard does and that you´ll have a spell book. So how is this? You have all the spells in the spell book or you have access to all spells but for you to cast them you´ll have to write them on the spellbook?
Thanks for the clearing
But, you have to transcribe a version into your spellbook before you can cast it.
One little question I misunderstood when I read the chameleon.
When you choose the arcane focus it says you have access to all spells from all arcane classes, but it also says that you prepare them as a normal wizard does and that you´ll have a spell book. So how is this? You have all the spells in the spell book or you have access to all spells but for you to cast them you´ll have to write them on the spellbook?
Thanks for the clearing
My guess is that while they can know all the spells, they actually need to find them first and record them...
Yeah, but that´s just wierd! Like, if you know all the spells from all the classes why do you need to use your spellbook?
:D
if one of your domains is Spell, then you can get Anyspell and Greater Anyspell.
:D
Unfortunately it's not. I want to be able to cast it more than once anyway, so domain spell's just not the best option. Is this spell not on ANY divine prc spell list?
Also, isn't there a feat that allows you to cast arcane spell as divine spell? What's it called?
The Planning Domain, I believe, has True Strike. It's also optimal for a cleric as it grants you the Extend Spell feat for free.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=436157
very interesting
:D
A nice floating feat to take in non-combat settings is Open Minded. You gain 5 extra skill points, which you can set to any skills you wish. And you can change them from day to day. Do you suddenly find you need to speak Draconic? No problem! Do you need the Craft (basketweaving) skill? You have it!
Open minded is an awesome feat which my Chameleon is planning on putting to good use once he gets the chance (and the second level of chameleon). Even if you have the skill already, the chameleon gets the +s to skills to compensate for generally not having the skills they need maxxed-out. Widening the choice of which skills to maxx-out is really the piece de resistance IMHO.
There is the question of wether or not the skills count as class skills. This would be a non-issue with Able Learner but that doesn't affect Speak Language. Chameleon does get Speak Language as a class skill though, so I think it should be considered a class skill for the feat. Other opponions?
Technicially its feasible, but Bing! Suddenly being able to fluently speak five languages, and then just as instantly forgetting them doesn't seem to jive well...but it sure does fit the flavor of the class, doesn't it? They can be a native of anywhere, anytime...especially if the DM allows a second skillpoint to make it sound like a native instead of a taught speaker.
==Aelryinth
Rogue1/wizard5/chameleon2/dweomerkeeper10/xx2
I took rogue for character development reasons (mistake #1).
I get into dweomerkeeper by taking the arcane devotee (?) feat that allows you to cast spells from a deity's domain (magic in this case). I think it may work but then again...
I'd like to get my arcane to 17 caster level for access to 9th level spells. So I am thinking that the last two levels will be loremaster or just 2 more wiz (or something else based on advice).
at 20th level:
BAB:9/4
Caster level:17
Fort:5
Ref:7
Wil:14
Why Chameleon? well for the free feat at second level. I can chose any item creation feat in the morning and make what i need.
So is this an okay build? Can I improve it? Is it inherently weak?
currently I am rogue1/wizard3 (human) so i can not undo those first 4 levels.
ARFM
I don't think that build is worth it. Sure, you get to pick whatever feat you want, but losing 2 levels of spells really hurts a build. Do you really want to be casting only 3rd level spells at 9th level?
A much better direction is Daggerspell Mage - you already got Able Learner, which is extremely helpful with DSM's horrid skill list, you just need to pick up the 2 feats necessary(TWF, Weapon Focus: Dagger)
Not really a chameleon build but just one that dips into the PrC.
Rogue1/wizard5/chameleon2/dweomerkeeper10/xx2
I get into dweomerkeeper by taking the arcane devotee (?) feat that allows you to cast spells from a deity's domain (magic in this case). I think it may work but then again...
I was thinking in Rogue8/Rgr2/Chameleon10/
I use the Unearthed Arcana variant of the rogue with feats (I don't like SA too much)
Yeah, I know.. BAB +15 and i don't have persistent divine power, but my caracter isn't a tank, is more a skill monkey and "jack of all trades" (track, skills, cure spells, effect spells, moderate fighting, mechanic rogue, etc.)
see u
Rogue 11/Ranger 2/Chameleon 7
Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Chameleon 7/Nightsong Enforcer 4/Exemplar 4
Rogue 4/Warlock 6/Chameleon 4/Nightsong Enforcer 6
I know you say you don't want a +16 BAB, but that becomes more important as you don't have any other source of damage.
From that list, a dip into cloistered cleric really stands-out as that not only gives you 6+int skill points, but also gives you turn/rebuke undead (to qualify for/use divine feats with) and 2 domains (domain powers are always nice).
IMHO no skilled character is complete without Knowledge skills. A level of a class with all knowledge skills as class skills would thus be most useful for a skill chameleon. Options are Bard, Wizard, Cloistered Cleric, and Marshal (probably others too, can't think of many from the top of my head though.
If you have Able Learner, most knowledge skills are essentially class skills. Unless you're planning to max them all out, of course.
Feats? would you recommend me some feats?
thanks
Remember one of the huge strengths of this class is the early high power level casting and the absolute freedom to select whatever spells you want...while maintaining your BAB. You don't actually have poor saves, either, since the bonus to your saves equals that of a class with good saves in the class.
You want classes with large amounts of skill points. You want weapon skills that cater to your strengths...probably Weapon finesse since you can always use light weapons, Precise shot so you can use ranged spells and weapons in close melee, and similar things.
As a skill monkey, you have to determine what skills you are going to focus on, and what are going to be 'selective'. YOu are going to need a very high Intelligence, since Chameleon levels only give 4 sp/level.
I strongly recommend competence items for key skills that you want to be able to use all the time. UMD is basically needed to use most spell list items, since your Chameleon levels don't qualify for them, so keep it maxed. Skill monkeys generally focus on OL, DD, search, spot and the stealth skills.
=Aelryinth
Feats? would you recommend me some feats?
thanks
A)
Once per day, you can select one of five areas upon which to focus your ever-shifting talents. After meditating for 1 hour, you gain the chosen abilities for 24 hours or until you change your aptitude focus. An aptitude focus ability is usable once per day at 1st level, twice per day at 5th level, and three times per day at 10th level.
At 5th level, you can change your aptitude focus one time per day, and at 10th level you can change your aptitude focus two times per day. If you change to the arcane focus or divine focus ability, you must still obey the normal rules for preparing spells (including any rest required).
What are they saying here? The first part of the first paragraph is obvious. What seems contradictory is the last sentence of the first paragraph (bolded) and the whole second paragraph. Or is it saying that if you chose the combat focus you can use the abilities (BAB bonus, fort save bonus, etc.) a certain number of times a day? Therefore a low level Chameleon would only get one attack per day with a +2 to BAB and damage? If so that seems really weak.
B)
Double Aptitude (Ex): At 7th level, you can adopt two aptitude focuses in the same amount of time it previously took for you to adopt one. For example, you could adopt both the combat focus and the wild focus to mimic a ranger, or the divine focus and arcane focus to mimic a mystic theurge. You can't adopt the same aptitude focus twice simultaneously. You can still only adopt as many focuses per day as indicated by your aptitude focus ability.
At tenth level you can adopt 3 focuses so can you hold three at once? The last sentence is what gets me. It clashes with the whole definition. The ability is double aptitude. meaning two... and yet they drop that last sentence in there which to me sound like you could adopt 3 foci at 10th level (e.g. arcane, wild, stealth).
All in all I am bloody well confused as to what precisely the chameleon can do.
Help...
ARFM
I am confused by some of the verbiage in the chameleon description. Please help me sort through this.
A)
Once per day, you can select one of five areas upon which to focus your ever-shifting talents. After meditating for 1 hour, you gain the chosen abilities for 24 hours or until you change your aptitude focus. An aptitude focus ability is usable once per day at 1st level, twice per day at 5th level, and three times per day at 10th level.
At 5th level, you can change your aptitude focus one time per day, and at 10th level you can change your aptitude focus two times per day. If you change to the arcane focus or divine focus ability, you must still obey the normal rules for preparing spells (including any rest required).
What are they saying here? The first part of the first paragraph is obvious. What seems contradictory is the last sentence of the first paragraph (bolded) and the whole second paragraph. Or is it saying that if you chose the combat focus you can use the abilities (BAB bonus, fort save bonus, etc.) a certain number of times a day? Therefore a low level Chameleon would only get one attack per day with a +2 to BAB and damage? If so that seems really weak.
B)
Double Aptitude (Ex): At 7th level, you can adopt two aptitude focuses in the same amount of time it previously took for you to adopt one. For example, you could adopt both the combat focus and the wild focus to mimic a ranger, or the divine focus and arcane focus to mimic a mystic theurge. You can't adopt the same aptitude focus twice simultaneously. You can still only adopt as many focuses per day as indicated by your aptitude focus ability.
At tenth level you can adopt 3 focuses so can you hold three at once? The last sentence is what gets me. It clashes with the whole definition. The ability is double aptitude. meaning two... and yet they drop that last sentence in there which to me sound like you could adopt 3 foci at 10th level (e.g. arcane, wild, stealth).
All in all I am bloody well confused as to what precisely the chameleon can do.
Help...
ARFM
Pargraph 2 is just restating paragraph 1. Bing! I'm a fighter. O wait, I'm fifth level. It's the middle of the day, I'll be a cleric now! Bing! Oh, I'm tenth level. Bing! I'm now your friendly party rogue.
Nothing more complex then that. Also note that when you change your aptitude focus you can also change where your ability score boost goes.
At level 7, you can take two Focii at once. So you wake up. Bing! Bing! you take two hits on your focii, using up your allotment for the day, and are a wizard/priest. At level 10, BING! you swap out Wizard for fighter when all your spells are used up.
That's it. Don't read any more into it then that. ONe ability allows you to SELECT focii 3t/day at level 10, the other allows you to keep two of them going at the same time. Each focii counts as a selection.
==Aelryinth
I love Chameleon. I want to play one soon...
For instance:
Wake up one morning and you need to be a dwarf. Be one and take the stable footing feat (Races of Eberron). Gain +4 on trips and bullrushes, just like a normal dwarf.
Anyway, it opens up quite a few options in the feat department. At least for changelings. (If the racial emulation feat works the way I'm reading it)
Good feats that come to mind:
least dragonmark
dozens of feats from races books
stable footing (+4 on bullrush/trip and terrain mods)
J
least dragonmark
That is an amazing idea. The RP power of being able to change house memberships at will goes so far beyond the mechanical power of a single feat it is mind-boggling.
First of all, you need to be able to change Races...so you'd have to have the Permanent feat Racial Emulation (whatever). THEN you could use your bonus feat to emulate a Dragonmark...for that race only. Otherwise, taking a permanent feat 'dragonmark' and using Racial Emulation in your bonus feat slot won't work...you can't use the bonus feat of a Chameleon to help you qualify for a permanent feat OR to help you get into a PrC.
And a DM who didn't enforce the only One Racial Emulation allowed (Emulation assumes you have a direct ancestry to the race you are emulating) is a bit daft in the head.
I suggest you read the class more closely. None of the class abilities or bonuses help you qualify for feats or PrC's if they can be altered.
===Aelryinth
It won't work, period.
First of all, you need to be able to change Races...so you'd have to have the Permanent feat Racial Emulation (whatever). THEN you could use your bonus feat to emulate a Dragonmark...for that race only. Otherwise, taking a permanent feat 'dragonmark' and using Racial Emulation in your bonus feat slot won't work...you can't use the bonus feat of a Chameleon to help you qualify for a permanent feat OR to help you get into a PrC.
And a DM who didn't enforce the only One Racial Emulation allowed (Emulation assumes you have a direct ancestry to the race you are emulating) is a bit daft in the head.
I suggest you read the class more closely. None of the class abilities or bonuses help you qualify for feats or PrC's if they can be altered.
===Aelryinth
Sorry, but... what ? The Racial Emulation feat doesn't mention anything about you having to be related to the creature. Nothing. Merely when using your minor shapchange you gain that humanoid's subtype. You can only be on race at a time. Not one race period. That means if I pretended to be a dwarf and and took dwarven defender, I couldnt change to elf without loosing all the prc's abilities (since you no longer qualify).
No, you cannot be a heir of siberys, but yes, you can have any dragonmark.
And a DM who didn't enforce the only One Racial Emulation allowed (Emulation assumes you have a direct ancestry to the race you are emulating) is a bit daft in the head.
I suggest you read the class more closely. None of the class abilities or bonuses help you qualify for feats or PrC's if they can be altered.
===Aelryinth
The feat says you can change into a humanoid and assume their type for all affects. Perhaps I'll read it again. . . I don't recall it saying "choose a parent race" anywhere in the description, but I may be wrong. . . (Racial Emulation says nothing about direct ancestory). The feat is specifically written to include the possibility of becoming more than one type of creature, otherwise it would have "choose a humanoid race, you may assume shapes of that race more readily" and it wouldn't have "may only assume one form at a time." I think perhaps you are referring to other feats that aren't designed for changeling.
Anyway, I wasn't suggesting using your bonus feat to nab racial emulation, I was suggesting placing it as a regular feat earlier in the build to use the chameleon bonus feat for race specific feats (least dragonmark for instance).
And I still don't see why you can't qualify for heir of siberys. . . I could see why on dragonmark heir (since they require other dragonmark feats before entering them), but heir of siberys has only 1 feat requirement that you could meet before taking chameleon.
I wasn't suggesting that any of the chameleon abilities allowed me to do anything regarding heir of siberys. I was suggesting that having the racial emulation feat prior to chameleon (and regardless of chameleon) would allow one to take heir of siberys.
If your changeling/dop took racial emulation, it means he can become a human, for all intents and purposes.
Now, while he is a human, he can use the bonus feat from the Chameleon to gain a Human Dragonmark. That is an acceptable method of using the feat.
However! he must remain in a human form to keep the Dragonmark! if he leaves human form, he ceases to emulate being Human, and he loses the Mark instantly since he does not have the Pre-Req for the feat.
In other words, yes, you could do this, but it would put a serious Crimp into your shape shifting ability to do so.
Could you attain a Siberys Mark this way? Again, the answer is yes. You'd have to remain in the form chosen while you manifested the Mark, but since you are going to manifest it to use it only once (likely), that should not be an issue.
Could you use it to qualify for Heir of Siberys? No. Feats gained via the Chameleon's bonus feat cannot be used to qualify for a Prestige Class. You would have to independently take the Siberys Mark feat for the Race you are emulating. And if you ever change out of that race, you forever lose the Siberys Mark you just wasted a permanent feat on.
Emulation is meant to entail a very specific depth of imitation, and puts quite a crimp into what a shapeshifter can do. Of course, a changeling could emulate a human...any kind of human...but then there's the problem that no matter what human form they change into, the Siberys Mark would remain a constant identifier of who they really were.
Which, come to think of it, would be pretty unique for a changeling.
======
Edit: I see what you are trying to arrive at. It comes down to interpretation. Is Racial Emulation unlimited in the number of races you can Emulate? In other words, can you Emulate Dwarf, Elf, Human, Orc, etc? All with one feat?
Very strong. I was under the impression the feat only allowed you to Emulate one race per time the feat was taken (you could chose Emulate (humans), but Emulating Dwarves would take a second feat. Zrrrt!). Apologies!
The answer to this is still the same. Remember, Dragonmarks are inherited traits...they pass along specific bloodlines in the Eberrron setting. Now, if you want to change the rules and make them completely random, then what you have done here is opened up a huge can of worms, as now it is conceivable for any creature that is able to shapechange to manifest a Dragonmark...even a human who can polymorph or has acquired a shapechanger subtype (a Warshaper, for instance).
Keith noted that he would allow a Changeling to manifest a Dragonmark IF it had the Racial Emulation feat and did not shift out of its Emulated racial form, AND it was the child of a bloodline that had a Dragonmark...i.e. the child of a Cannith Lord or something. If it shifted out of that form, it lost the Dragonmark forever...but use of a Chameleon could get it back, but ONLY that Dragonmark.
Since the Chameleon does not override the 'inheritance' factor of the Dragonmarks, you'd be limited to doing this with a Changeling that's the child of a Specific Dragonmark House. Unlike any other member of the House, however, you could 'upgrade' your Mark for free, or Downgrade it as you wished.
In no case could you use it to qualify for a PrC. If you take the Mark permanently, then you are stuck in an emulation (remember, the Emulation only works if you are trying to appear as a member of that race), or you lose the feat. You can change your form to that of any Human...but only humans, for example.
Still, you could play mindgames, by upgrading your Dragonmark from Least to Siberys suddenly, using the Bonus feat for either as needed...and look like any male or female human as you wished. You'd just have to stay 'human'.
===Aelryinth
Emulation is meant to entail a very specific depth of imitation, and puts quite a crimp into what a shapeshifter can do. Of course, a changeling could emulate a human...any kind of human...but then there's the problem that no matter what human form they change into, the Siberys Mark would remain a constant identifier of who they really were.
Which, come to think of it, would be pretty unique for a changeling.
======
Edit: I see what you are trying to arrive at. It comes down to interpretation. Is Racial Emulation unlimited in the number of races you can Emulate? In other words, can you Emulate Dwarf, Elf, Human, Orc, etc? All with one feat?
Very strong. I was under the impression the feat only allowed you to Emulate one race per time the feat was taken (you could chose Emulate (humans), but Emulating Dwarves would take a second feat. Zrrrt!). Apologies!
Yes I think the feat is more designed for using magic items/spells, but it reads as "all affects." Generally speaking it would be a bad idea to take any feats based off of racial emulation, because they would be useless once you changed forms, but with the chameleon bonus feat it is quite a bit more useful. It is pretty powerful by itself, but even more powerful with a free swappable feat.
The answer to this is still the same. Remember, Dragonmarks are inherited traits...they pass along specific bloodlines in the Eberrron setting. Now, if you want to change the rules and make them completely random, then what you have done here is opened up a huge can of worms, as now it is conceivable for any creature that is able to shapechange to manifest a Dragonmark...even a human who can polymorph or has acquired a shapechanger subtype (a Warshaper, for instance).
Keith noted that he would allow a Changeling to manifest a Dragonmark IF it had the Racial Emulation feat and did not shift out of its Emulated racial form, AND it was the child of a bloodline that had a Dragonmark...i.e. the child of a Cannith Lord or something. If it shifted out of that form, it lost the Dragonmark forever...but use of a Chameleon could get it back, but ONLY that Dragonmark.
Since the Chameleon does not override the 'inheritance' factor of the Dragonmarks, you'd be limited to doing this with a Changeling that's the child of a Specific Dragonmark House. Unlike any other member of the House, however, you could 'upgrade' your Mark for free, or Downgrade it as you wished.
In no case could you use it to qualify for a PrC. If you take the Mark permanently, then you are stuck in an emulation (remember, the Emulation only works if you are trying to appear as a member of that race), or you lose the feat. You can change your form to that of any Human...but only humans, for example.
Still, you could play mindgames, by upgrading your Dragonmark from Least to Siberys suddenly, using the Bonus feat for either as needed...and look like any male or female human as you wished. You'd just have to stay 'human'.
===Aelryinth
The only problem is that there isn't a siberys mark feat, only the heir of siberys PrC (the only way I know of to get a siberys mark).
My idea is a changeling that was specifically bred by the cabinet tricksters. after several generations of selective breeding between changeling and house members you arrive at a changeling with at least 1/32nd of house blood from each house. . .
But that's a lot of back story and would require a lot of campaign tweaking. The PC would be very important. . .
Anyway, a changeling could take racial emulation, and the dragonmark feats, BUT I don't know how this would work for all the different houses. Would the dragonmark change to match his race or would it only work in 1 form? The feats only require a dragonmarked race and then give bonus SLA depending on what race they are. . . so if you had the feats, then by RAW you would be able to swap between marks?
But I'm let him manifest any Aberrant mark from the corrupting influence of all them combined Dragonmark feats....
But that's just me! Also note Aberrant Marks don't neccessarily have any racial tie...
==Aelryinth
1/32 blood from all Houses? I'd probably make it impossible for him to manifest a Dragonmark....
But I'm let him manifest any Aberrant mark from the corrupting influence of all them combined Dragonmark feats....
But that's just me! Also note Aberrant Marks don't neccessarily have any racial tie...
==Aelryinth
My math was off, he'd be 1/16th from each house, so 3/4 of his blood comes from dragonmarked houses.
Moradin’s smile (bonus on charisma checks)
Catfolk Pounce (UM POUNCE ANYONE?!)
Yondalla’s Sense (bonus on initiative)
Focused Mind (Bonus on Int checks)
Elf Dilettante (Bonus on untrained checks)
He'd have to be the direct child of a single House to be able to manifest a mark. Anything more, and you have mixed Mark mayhem.
Which, when they get around to doing the Aberrant marks, might not be that bad.
==Aelryinth
Pretty-much all of the spells on the Telflammer Shadowlord spell list appear a level or 3 early.
It gets Invisibility as a 1st level spell, Greater Invisibility, Displacement, and other spells at 2nd level, with Dimension Door and Darkbolt (a 2d8 bolt ranged touch attack 1/round as a free action, one bolt/2 caster levels, max 7) as 3rd level spells. I think that Chill touch and Knock are the only two spells that don't appear early!
Wildshaping Chameleons:
Human Divine Minion 1/Ninja 2/Master of Many Forms 7/Chameleon 10 (requires 1 flaw)
Human Divine Minion 1/Human Paragon 2/Master of Many Forms 7/Chameleon 10
Human Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 7/Nature's Warrior 1/Chameleon 7
Sigh.
Now I really do not know what to do with my character. Chameleon isn't going to help out.
So am I right in suspecting this. I could slide it past my GM... but I won't because well I'd hate my character because it would be cheating.
crap.
through my experience wizards suck. spell casters suck. (I know that 75% of you can offer up uber builds that can kick beaucoup arse. but it still wouldn't change my opinion) Too few spells per day means that after a few rounds you're done. kaput. useless. Scrolls, magic items, etc. take lots of time and money. something that is very rare for the most part.
ARfm done whinning.
Now a second question. Would a chemeleon with the arcane focus take the extra damage from a Magebane weapon?
Just a few things I was thinking about on how the can not use abilities for requirements type stuff.
Thanks for any help.
2) That one's a tricky one, although I'd have to say yes. There's a fine line between what counts as qualifying and what doesn't. The character obviously has to qualify for having the spells in some sense, otherwise they wouldn't even be able to cast them. By the logic that: The character's spells interact with other spells like any other spells, thus they can cast a spell which shows-up under detect magic, thus if the character was viewed with Arcane Sight then I think they'd show-up as having spells, thus they do have the spells there. As that's all the magebane weapon cares about, I think th eextra damage woudl apply.
The Chamel-O-ficer
Ranger 2/ Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 1/ Artificer 8/ Chameleon 8
BAB +16
lots of feats
5th lvl arcane and divine spells
16th lvl caster
artificer goodies:....MAKE ANY ITEM YOU WANT
or this:
Rogue 1/ Artificer 9/ Chameleon 10
BAB +14
lots of Skills
6th lvl arcane and divine spells
20th lvl caster
Trapfinding
:D
More info would be nice if this is not true.
Thanx again.
:D
artificer goodies:....MAKE ANY ITEM YOU WANT
Up to artificer caster level.
Up to artificer caster level.
artificer caster lvl +2
:D
through my experience wizards suck. spell casters suck. (I know that 75% of you can offer up uber builds that can kick beaucoup arse. but it still wouldn't change my opinion) Too few spells per day means that after a few rounds you're done. kaput. useless. Scrolls, magic items, etc. take lots of time and money. something that is very rare for the most part.
ARfm done whinning.
You don't like running out of spells per day, eh? Well, I realize you say we won't change your opinion, but actually I mostly just wanted to use your comment as a lead-in to something I've been looking at...
The Master of Low Level Spells.
I came up with this build mostly because I liked the flavor of it...it's got rotten BAB, especially early on, but I just really like the concept. It currently has three versions, two of which (if I've kept track of everything correctly) rely only on Core, Complete, and Races material and the third of which is an example of what you can do if your DM is allowing Psychic Rogues (I'm not sure the version I've seen is the same as the one people around here talk about though) and UA material and such. It allows a fair amount of tweaking to your own preferences in all three variations.
Build I:
Rogue 2/Druid 1/Bard 1/Wizard 1/Chameleon 10/Fochlucan Lyrist 5
Apply Fochlucan Lyrist spellcasting progressions to Druid and Wizard. If you take the Arcane and Divine Foci, and assume Int and Wis at least eventually both get to 16 so you can cast all of your spells and a Charisma of 10 for your Bard cantrips, you wind up with 10 cantrips per day, 8 Orisons, 9 each arcane and divine 1st-level spells, 9 each 2nd, 8 each 3rd, 5 each 4th, 3 each 5th, and 1 each 6th. If my calculations are correct, you net 3 fewer spells per day than you would by going Cleric 5/Sorceror 5/Mystic Theurge 10 (not a build I ever paid much attention to, but it seems like it's a somewhat appropriate comparison). You also have more lower-level spells and don't get 7th arcane and 7th-8th divine. On the other hand you get slightly better BAB (whoop-te-doo, 12 instead of 10), more skill points, the Chameleon's ability to pick and choose spells for large parts of your spell complement...unfortunately not as a spontaneous caster...Bardic Music and Bardic Knowledge as if you were a level 6 bard, and the ability to change roles as the Chameleon if you need to do something else that day. Also, if your Int or Wis hits 20, you should catch up to the Theurge build on total spells per day (though you obviously still don't get higher levels) due to getting bonus spells twice. Also, it's worth mentioning that this is accomplished despite using Wizard versus Sorceror, meaning fewer spells per day, and without specializing.
Build II
Rogue 1/Druid 1/Bard 1/Rogue 2/Bard 2/Warlock 1/Chameleon 9/Fochlucan Lyrist 5
This build suffers little, if at all, if you choose some other arcane spellcaster that gets level 1 spells at first level instead of the second level of Bard, but unfortunately you have to get level 1 arcane spells one way or another. You can also take one more level of Chameleon instead of one of the levels of Lyrist if you consider the higher level spells, Aptitude Focus Change and Ability Boon increase to be better than the ability to use your Chameleon bonus feat to switch around a least Extra Invocation when you need it and do a little more with your bardic music. I imagine most people probably would. If it comes to that, some people might prefer to use one or two of their levels as a Lyrist to advance their other arcane spellcasting class if they only wanted a couple of Invocations. This is really just an example of tricks you can pull off if you sacrifice one level of one of the prestige classes.
Build III (Lenient DM)
Psychic Rogue 2/Druidic Avenger 1 or Variant Druid 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Domain Wizard 1/Chameleon 10/Fochlucan Lyrist 5
Here, if your DM decides Lore qualifies as Bardic Knowledge, basically what you wind up doing is giving up a little bardic music for three Cleric domains, while getting a couple of powers to manifest, the advantages of a wizard domain without the limits of wizard specialization (a matter of taste here), and either Fast Movement and a real rage in exchange for your animal companion and spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally or a Monk-like bonus to AC in exchange for some armor and shield proficiencies you probably wouldn't have used anyway.
If I missed any problems that make some of these not work, I offer my deepest apologies.
None of these are power builds, exactly...like I said, I came up with them because I liked the concept. I'm sure the Cleric/Sorcerer/Theurge isn't the only way to outperform it. A Druid 3/Sorcerer 4/Bard 1/Arcane Hierophant X/Fochlucan Lyrist 12-X, for example, looks interesting at a brief glance. However, I prefer the flavor and versatility of this.
You don't like running out of spells per day, eh? Well, I realize you say we won't change your opinion, but actually I mostly just wanted to use your comment as a lead-in to something I've been looking at...
Well I am used to playing fighter/rogue or tank builds that can go all day long dealing out the damage or using skills. This is my first spellcaster for D20. I have been turned off right away without playing a spellcaster.
I had hoped that the chameleon class would have allowed me to craft magic items to fill in the gaps (wands and stuff) and also be fairly useful for subterfuge (spying, disguise, etc.). but then I read the rules and now i don't think that a chameleon can qualify for the crafting feats. So now my build will look something like this:
rogue 2/wizard 8/chameleon 10 with practised caster which will give me a CL of 12 which qualifies for all crafting feats. My only problem now is how to arrange the levels to insure that there are no really really bad dead spots (power capability).
arfm
The Rogue/Wizard/Chameleon build doesn't have the ability to make items that require divine spells either, so you're not going to be able to do everything.
The Rogue/Wizard/Chameleon build doesn't have the ability to make items that require divine spells either, so you're not going to be able to do everything.
why not? I thought that in making a magic item the source of the spell that powers it could be from anywhere. Another PC, a scroll, etc. So why couldn't a chameleon focused on divine cast spells into an item they are creating? The character uses the 8 wizard levels plus the practiced caster feat to (8+4=12 CL) to qualify for all of the crafting feats. Then using either (or both) the arcane or divine focus to imbue the spells into the item.
This seems to work to me.
(edited for clarity)
Well y'see the chameleon can't use abilities granted by aptitude foci to qualify for any option. In this case, the abilities that can't be used are the spells and the option is item crafting.
I'd read that as meaning that the chameleon can't qualify for item crafting feats using their aptitude foci. However, since the spells used for item crafting can come from any source - personal spellcasting ability, wands, scrolls, another spellcaster - I don't see how spells gained through aptitude foci should be treated differently in this case.
Well y'see the chameleon can't use abilities granted by aptitude foci to qualify for any option. In this case, the abilities that can't be used are the spells and the option is item crafting.
Lilt is refering to this section:
You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement.
found here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b
the only time you are able to cast spells with this PrC...is when you take an Aptitude Focus and choose Arcane or Divine...thus getting the ability to cast spells.
:D
The spells gained from the Chameleon focus (divine or arcane) are just used to power the enchantment.
If you wanted to get RAW insane you could almost say that this character couldn't get passed SR. Because you can't use any ability gained to qualify for any option... so you couldn't use the CL gained to overcome SR.
I think it works personally. I qualify for the feats with the wizard levels and the practiced caster feat.
Maybe we are just seeing this differently... I'm going to go read the SRD on creating magic items.
You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement.
PRESTIGE CLASSES
Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class.
CREATING MAGIC ITEMS
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
Now, unless you want to argue that prerequisites are different from requirements, the requirements for crafting items have to be met in the same way that the requirements for a PrC must be met. I think it's thus completely fair to deny use of chameleon spells to qualify for those requirements. Getting Scrolls and similar, or another caster to do it for you, but I don't think you can qualify for the item building requirements using chameleon spells.
Now, unless you want to argue that prerequisites are different from requirements, the requirements for crafting items have to be met in the same way that the requirements for a PrC must be met. I think it's thus completely fair to deny use of chameleon spells to qualify for those requirements. Getting Scrolls and similar, or another caster to do it for you, but I don't think you can qualify for the item building requirements using chameleon spells.
You're right.
Crap. hmm. So the chameleon doesn't 'know' the spells that s/he can cast. even though the character must keep them in a spell book, memorize them in the morning and I think roll to see if they can learn the spell (to add to their spell book). I think that this sort of sucks. oh well. the "...or other option" is so broad.
to be absurd (so ignore if you wish) A chameleon's fireball wouldn't hurt something that was only hurt by fire. Requirement = need. If you need fire to hurt said monster... well then...
The chameleon's spells are faux spells and their functionality is hampered by that rule. hrmmm... well. I guess all there is to do is kill off the character and start a FB. ;)
I call him, The Human Master of Making,
He can vary depending on whether you want him to be a spontaneous caster or not.
Spontaneous:
Warmage 1/ Favored Soul 4/ Chameleon 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ XX 3
Feats: Precocious spellcaster (1st), Able Learner (human), Practised Spellcaster (3rd), Craft Wondrous Item (6th), Theurgic Creationist (9th), XX (12th, 15th, 18th)
XX feats could be any Artisan feats you want, or any other if you'd like, whatever floats your boat.
Prepared:
Wizard 1/ Cloistered (or regular, if you want) Cleric 3/ Chameleon 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ XX 4
Feats: Precocious spellcaster (1st), Able Learner (human), Practised Spellcaster (Var), Craft Wondrous Item (3rd), Theurgic Creationist (6th), XX (9th, 12th, 15th, 18th)
Not only does he get the spells needed, but he gets every single Item Creation feat that he could use, with his second level ability. In addition to that, Theurgic Creationist (DR625, pg. 64) allows you to add all of the spellcasting levels you have, and mix that up with the Mystic Theurge, and for 17, or 16 levels, you actually count yourself as having 27, or 26 spellcasting levels, pretty sweet deal.
(Also, I have yet to read the verdict on whether it is allowed to use the Precocious Spellcaster feat to qualify for Mystic Theurge, if not, add some levels to the first classes.)
Secondly, Creationist Theurge adds both your levels to your Mystic Level...it doesn't add Theurge levels to each other. It's basically a form of Practiced Spellcaster for Theurges only, so that you can actually CAST at level 20 in both classes when you get there, even though you are effectively a c/13 Wiz/17, or somesuch, in terms of spells/day and spells known.
Level 26 or 27? Shee-yah, not.
===Aelryinth
Crap. hmm. So the chameleon doesn't 'know' the spells that s/he can cast. even though the character must keep them in a spell book, memorize them in the morning and I think roll to see if they can learn the spell (to add to their spell book). I think that this sort of sucks. oh well. the "...or other option" is so broad.
to be absurd (so ignore if you wish) A chameleon's fireball wouldn't hurt something that was only hurt by fire. Requirement = need. If you need fire to hurt said monster... well then...
well. I guess all there is to do is kill off the character and start a FB. ;)
Well... having said that I think there is some leeway for you to work in. Note that you can have the spells cast from an item, so all you need is to fork the cash out for a scroll or partially chrged want or something. Even a wonderous item or ring that produces a spell effect might suffice. UMDing a scroll would seem a fine option.
B) I think I'll keep with the same concept. I may not be able to do everything i want but it does sort of fill the concept i had in mind for the character. I wanted to use crafting to fill in some gaps... mainly with the shortage of daily allotment of spells. Fighters swing swords, spellcasters sling spells. The fighter can do it for hours on end, a spell caster not so much.
C) whine over.
arfm
I would love an official ruling on this because it seems absolute insane that they couldn't qualify for any of the creation feats. If you take the argument further if they have no fighter previous to chameleon could they wear armour without penalties?
HAs WOTC FAQ'ed this at all.
I would love an official ruling on this because it seems absolute insane that they couldn't qualify for any of the creation feats. If you take the argument further if they have no fighter previous to chameleon could they wear armour without penalties?
Call me crazy, but I think the chameleon not qualifying for item creation feats is the whole reason they denied qualification for options using foci in the first place.
I think I'll keep with the same concept. I may not be able to do everything i want but it does sort of fill the concept i had in mind for the character. I wanted to use crafting to fill in some gaps... mainly with the shortage of daily allotment of spells. Fighters swing swords, spellcasters sling spells. The fighter can do it for hours on end, a spell caster not so much.
A spellcaster can cast a single spell to last all day, or be several times as effective as the fighter whilst using other spells. A spellcaster can still swing a sword all day, although I suspect they'd be better with a weapon they were proficient with
Everybody has a limit. A fighter may be able to swing all day but he certainly can't take damage all day. Fast-healing may help, but not enough to cancel-out a reasonable amount of damage as would be dealt by an equal-CR encounter.
Call me crazy, but I think the chameleon not qualifying for item creation feats is the whole reason they denied qualification for options using foci in the first place.
I can see with the free float a PrC intended as a subterfuge jack of all trades would suddenly become a pretty nasty crafter (10th level chameleon has a CL of 20, possible at level 15)
A spellcaster can cast a single spell to last all day, or be several times as effective as the fighter whilst using other spells. A spellcaster can still swing a sword all day, although I suspect they'd be better with a weapon they were proficient with
True... I guess it comes down to play styles and forethought. This is my first spell caster in d20 and I have been playing since its inception. I prefer, what I see, a more fluid character that is created by mixing rogue like (skill monkey) classes with fighter classes. Right now at 5th level (wiz 3 / rogue 2) in our campaign it feels lame to toss out scorching ray once or twice (and hopefully hit) just to do 4d6 per ray. Especially when the barbarian across the table belts out 20-30 points of damage per hit. Yeah, without the cleric smacking him with heal spells he wouldn't last long... but that's true of any character. What really sucks and gets a little boring is after the 3rd or 4th round when I am all out of spells (some spells are cast through out the day for utility or what not) and there is very little to do. Usually I just try and stay out of the way. Maybe sometimes run up to flank a character to help out. But with a crap ac (12), crap hit points (18) and a crap melee to-hit bonus (str 10) it's dangerous.
Everybody has a limit. A fighter may be able to swing all day but he certainly can't take damage all day. Fast-healing may help, but not enough to cancel-out a reasonable amount of damage as would be dealt by an equal-CR encounter.
Now I truly end my whining. I have learned a bit and I thank you Lilt.
arfm
True... I guess it comes down to play styles and forethought. This is my first spell caster in d20 and I have been playing since its inception. I prefer, what I see, a more fluid character that is created by mixing rogue like (skill monkey) classes with fighter classes. Right now at 5th level (wiz 3 / rogue 2) in our campaign it feels lame to toss out scorching ray once or twice (and hopefully hit) just to do 4d6 per ray. Especially when the barbarian across the table belts out 20-30 points of damage per hit. Yeah, without the cleric smacking him with heal spells he wouldn't last long... but that's true of any character. What really sucks and gets a little boring is after the 3rd or 4th round when I am all out of spells (some spells are cast through out the day for utility or what not) and there is very little to do. Usually I just try and stay out of the way. Maybe sometimes run up to flank a character to help out. But with a crap ac (12), crap hit points (18) and a crap melee to-hit bonus (str 10) it's dangerous.
Might I make a suggestion towards your spell selection? Alter Self is a good spell that lasts a while (10 mins per level) and is available to you. You can use it to up your AC significantly and get a few natural attacks to augment your normal attacks with. A compilation of powerful forms can be found here. Later you'll be wanting Polymorph to up your other stats, for which there is a form compilation thread here . Wraithstrike (Complete Adventurer) is also useful to make-up for your poor strength, especially when combined with an alter self form with a number of attacks. Once you get Polymorph+Wraithstrike then you're laughing and easily out-damaging the barbarian.
Get a metamagic rod of extend spell, lesser to make your Mage Armor last much longer. Assuming you have Practiced Spellcaster, you can make a single memorisation of Mage Armor last all day using 2/day rod of extend spell (reckoned at 2k, the 3/day version in the DMG is worth it though) and a 1st level pearl of power (1k, DMG). These items are of general enough use that they'll still be used as you go up in levels. The extend rod will eventually be applied to castings of Greater Magic Weapon on your main weapon (probably a shortbow?) whilst the pearl of power is essentially an extra low-level spell slot for use with your more effective low-level spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and Grease.
If I take the Chameleon's floating Bonus Feat and choose Open Minded in Complete Adventurer, I immediatly gain 5 skill points and then spend them as normal. What is there to say that I lose these skills when I change my feat the next day?
I know this is horribly cheeserific and leads to infinite skill points, (amoung other things) but is it RAW? The way I see it atm, the skill points are already "spent" and losing the feat doesn't get rid of them. Am I wrong? If so, why?
Race: 1/2 Elf (see the sidebar in RoD about 1/2 human races)
Build, in order: Bard (Substitution level) 1/H-elf Paragon 3/Human Paragon 3/Chameleon 10/Egoist 3. At 20th level, assuming no STR increases or items (highly unlikely), you'll still be able to have STR 24 (from Chameleon ability + Animal Affinity Power) when Raging. My build has all Level boosts going into CON for the HP, since Chameleon is often a backup Tank. Put the Paragon increases into WIS in order to make Arcane and Divine equally attractive choices by the time you hit Chameleon.
Feats: Able Learner (forced), Extra Music, and Extra Turning, as well as Divine Metamagic Feats and either Wild Talent or Hidden Talent, are needed. Others are at the discretion of the player.
The post also got me thinking what other races would make good Chameleons.
I like the Mongrelman as alternate to Changeling. Would Skulks be worthwile for an Assassin type Chameleon? In an Underground campaign, Underfolk would be good because of Darkvision.
because its a good thread ;) :D
*Lots* of cool abilities.
- Social Intuition, 2 fighter feats, and evasion from Feat Rogue 2 (Changeling Substition Level 1)
- Trapfinding and Sudden Strike 1D6 from Ninja 1
- Turn Undead, 2 domains from Cleric 1 (Travel and Celerity => +10 speed and 20 rounds of freedom of movement as needed)
- Motivate DEX from Marshall 1
- 1 least invocation from Warlock 1 (Beguiling Influence, or Entropic Warding)
- Siberys Mark (Mark of Deneith for Mindblank) *2 per day, 2 general feats and 1 action point feats and additional action points from Hier of Siberys 3
- Skill Mastery from Exemplar 1
... and all the Chameleon abilities. Here, I think, is a very nice skill monkey / generalist. A total of 7 available general feats and 2 fighter feats and 1 floating feat to customize (in addition to able learner).
Feat list for my generalist Chameleon:
- Able Learner
- Extraordinary concentration
- Mobile Spellcasting
- Craven
- Heroic Spirit
- Action Surge
- Leadership
- Ancestral Relic
- Mercantile Background
- Planar Touchstone
- Combat Expertise
- Power Attack
Feedback very appreciated ... the goal of this build is to have a chameleon which really is a generalist, with an emphasis on cool abilties and the "skill monkey" role.
Thanks a bunch,
David
You forgot to include the required Action Point feats in your build.
==Aelryinth
It´s in the rules. The moment you lose the feat you lose all it´s benefits. Meaning you lose the skill points.
Aye, it's effectively a nicely superior version of Skill Focus for the discerning Chameleon. You can effectively make yourself a professional in any craft or profession with this skill, 5 ranks being the mark of an Expert. A little buffing on the side, and you can seamlessly carry out your role...you don't have to pretend to be a good barber, you are a good barber!
==Aelryinth
I can see with the free float a PrC intended as a subterfuge jack of all trades would suddenly become a pretty nasty crafter (10th level chameleon has a CL of 20, possible at level 15)
True... I guess it comes down to play styles and forethought. This is my first spell caster in d20 and I have been playing since its inception. I prefer, what I see, a more fluid character that is created by mixing rogue like (skill monkey) classes with fighter classes. Right now at 5th level (wiz 3 / rogue 2) in our campaign it feels lame to toss out scorching ray once or twice (and hopefully hit) just to do 4d6 per ray. Especially when the barbarian across the table belts out 20-30 points of damage per hit. Yeah, without the cleric smacking him with heal spells he wouldn't last long... but that's true of any character. What really sucks and gets a little boring is after the 3rd or 4th round when I am all out of spells (some spells are cast through out the day for utility or what not) and there is very little to do. Usually I just try and stay out of the way. Maybe sometimes run up to flank a character to help out. But with a crap ac (12), crap hit points (18) and a crap melee to-hit bonus (str 10) it's dangerous.
Now I truly end my whining. I have learned a bit and I thank you Lilt.
arfm
A Chameleon cannot use any abilities derived from his foci to qualify for a feat or class ability. So, effectively they have NO caster levels and cannot qualify for Item Creation feats.
In short, if not having the foci would force them to lose the feat, they can't qualify for it. Just because they 'seem to' with the right foci doesn't fix this problem.
==Aelryinth
I'd pick the Mark of Deneith. Being able to pop off a couple Mind Blanks a day is just insanely useful at level 12+.
You forgot to include the required Action Point feats in your build.
==Aelryinth
Thanks for the feedback. I've updated the feats.
Moment of Precience is a nice general utility spell.
Mind Blank is very convenient, and lasts a long time.
Hmm. I guess I agree with you -- mind blank it is. Moment of Precience is much more flexible, but I really like having all-day abilities. (And mind blank is quite powerful).
Allthough it isn't like I *have* to choose ... I can always buy an item
So anything that helps with a UMD check is probably a good thing.
==Aelryinth
Feat Rogue 2 (Changeling Substitution Level)
Where is that Substitution level found?
Where is that Substitution level found?
Races of Eberron
The Chameleon is actually casting the spell. The spell's effect is no different from a spell cast by another character from the same spelllist, using the same caster level. If it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's a duck. Item creation isn't picky about the source of the magic used to create an item. Conceptually you don't "qualify" with prerequisites for making a magical item as much as you assemble the right required components and know how to combine them in the crafting process. In that sense there is a very real difference between prequisites and requirements.
Now, of course the Chameleon alone doesn't qualify for the item creation feats, he needs another class for that. But the spells he casts are real. The spells he prepares he knows just as much as any other prepared caster knows their spells. (With the exception of a wizard with spell mastery. Heh.) I mean, using your interpretation it seems like the Chameleon couldn't even add to his own spellbook without the cheesy and probably unintentional Extra Spell feat trick.
Besides, there are worse things than a character able to make any magic item involving any arcane or divine spell of 1st-6th. Artificers and Warlocks already seem to be able to do much more than that, and with greater ease.
Sorry, it just doesn't make sense from any angle other than "We have to make sure this class isn't used too liberally." And from that angle it's clear that Chameleons don't qualify for feats or classes using thier unique powers so much of the abuse is prevented. I just think that item creation is a completely different mechanic in D&D and it also doesn't break the Chameleon to grant him that small boon.
I mean, using your interpretation it seems like the Chameleon couldn't even add to his own spellbook without the cheesy and probably unintentional Extra Spell feat trick.
Hey! Don't call my trick cheesy! It's not cheesy; the proper terminology is "inadmissibly cool."
In any case, even though Monte Cook has stated several times that it was originally an error in the 3.0 DMG, caster levels are prerequisite for item creation. As a Chameleon's caster levels come from foci, he cannot use them to qualify for the caster level prerequisites for various items. He would need a caster level from another source, possibly increased through ioun stones.
If it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's a
Chameleon pretending to be a duck?
In any case, even though Monte Cook has stated several times that it was originally an error in the 3.0 DMG, caster levels are prerequisite for item creation. As a Chameleon's caster levels come from foci, he cannot use them to qualify for the caster level prerequisites for various items. He would need a caster level from another source, possibly increased through ioun stones.
Now, of course the Chameleon alone doesn't qualify for the item creation feats, he needs another class for that. But the spells he casts are real. The spells he prepares he knows just as much as any other prepared caster knows their spells. (With the exception of a wizard with spell mastery. Heh.) I mean, using your interpretation it seems like the Chameleon couldn't even add to his own spellbook without the cheesy and probably unintentional Extra Spell feat trick.
[PseudoQuote=Lilt]
Something something MoMF Chameleon something something
[/[PseudoQuote]
I like it
According to ECS p. 12, Changelings are offsprings of Humans and doppelgangers, but a separate race from both. Since only humans and doppelgangers can become Chameleons, it seems the Changeling build is invalid.
Unless of course I am missing something. In which case please set me straight.
Three is a build here (first post) with Changeling as a race for a Chameleon.
According to ECS p. 12, Changelings are offsprings of Humans and doppelgangers, but a separate race from both. Since only humans and doppelgangers can become Chameleons, it seems the Changeling build is invalid.
Unless of course I am missing something. In which case please set me straight.
In the Side bar near the Chameleon PRC it states that if you are using the changling race they should qualify as well.
FKN
You find the answer just as I post?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b
in the article "Previews for December and Beyond"
notice this:
Adaptation: Chameleons can be made completely nonmagical, where they have no spells but use sleight of hand to make things "disappear," and potions or powders to create smoke, fog, and fire. They could be made completely magical as well, or even psionic, using spells or psionics to actually change themselves into other classes.
If you're using the Eberron Campaign Setting, the chameleon prestige class should be available to changeling player characters as well as humans and doppelgangers.
:D
Does caster level from a non-Chameleon spellcasting class stack with caster level when choosing the appropriate focus?
IOW, if I had a Rogue 2/Wizard 3/Chameleon 1 and chose the Arcane Focus, thus casting as a 2nd level caster, would I actually cast as a 5th level caster?
Reply by Customer Service:
Chameleon levels do not stack with Previous caster levels. You would get your normal 1st level allotment as a cleric and then cast from your Chameleon chart for spells beyond those.
A friend has a Wizard/Rogue, who's about to go Cleric with the intention of picking up Chameleon in a couple of levels, and I said I'd ask.
He's 3rd level now and is currently:
1 Rogue
2 Wizard
3 Wizard
I believe he's looking at
4 Cleric
5 Rogue
And then Chameleon after that.
Can't do much for him with the first 3 levels, but maybe we could help him make the Cleric option help him out a bit.
In your opinions, what are the absolute best clerical Domains for a Chameleon character?
A friend has a Wizard/Rogue, who's about to go Cleric with the intention of picking up Chameleon in a couple of levels, and I said I'd ask.
He's 3rd level now and is currently:
1 Rogue
2 Wizard
3 Wizard
I believe he's looking at
4 Cleric
5 Rogue
And then Chameleon after that.
Can't do much for him with the first 3 levels, but maybe we could help him make the Cleric option help him out a bit.
Well planning for free extend spell to lead to divine persistent, I belive the undeath domain gives extra turning also good for divine persisent, trickery to help meet skill reqs. those are the primary for the average chameleon, also potentially useful is war for free weapon focus and luck or force the rerolls
A friend has a Wizard/Rogue, who's about to go Cleric with the intention of picking up Chameleon in a couple of levels, and I said I'd ask.
He's 3rd level now and is currently:
1 Rogue
2 Wizard
3 Wizard
I believe he's looking at
4 Cleric
5 Rogue
How about not going Cleric or Chameleon? 2 levels of Wizard is a horrible lead-in to Chameleon, because there's no real benefit - lousy skills, BAB, duplication of abilities, UMD is eventually capable of allowing you to do this anyway. If you want the ability to use basic Wizard items without UMD, take the Magic Domain as a Cleric...
Chameleon is a powerful PrC(as witnessed by my example character's ability to basically autokill the AC 66 character in one round), but you want to be effective before you hit 12th level if you're only at 3rd now...
Changling Race
Creation Feat Human Heritage (now "human", required RAW for Able Learner)
Bonus "Human" Feat (Able Learner)
3rd Level Feat: Persona Immersion
6th Level Feat: Racial Emulation (Ignore Disguise Penalty)
Levels:
1 Changeling Rogue (10+INT skills; Social Intuition)
1 Swashbuckler (+1 BAB; 4+INT; Weapon Finesse)
1 Fighter (+1 BAB; 2+INT; Blind-Fight)
1 Ranger (+1 BAB; 6+INT; Human Enemy)
1 Rogue (+1 BAB; 8+INT; Evasion)
Have +4 BAB now
2 Warshaper (2+INT; Immune to Crit/Stun; Natural Weapons; +4 CON/STR)
1 Marshal (4+INT; Skill Focus Diplomacy)
10 Chameleon (4+INT)
2 XXXXX
Skills:
ECL Level 1 Rogue (4 Bluff, 4 Disguise, 4 Sense Motive)
ECL Level 2 Swashbuckler (1 Bluff)
ECL Level 5 Rogue (3 Bluff, 4 Disguise)
ECL Level 8 Marshal (4 Spellcraft as cross class via Able Learner)
Always staying in different forms.
Race, Disguise Kit = +22 to all Disguise rolls
Always able to take 10 on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Info, Intimidate, & Sense Motive.
Brings up another question. Someone earlier said "use Ioun Stones" to increase caster level. I couldn't find the limit. Is it RAW that you could use say 19 Ioun Stones +1 Caster level to increase the Ranger casting to level 20? Would you get level 20 spell list or would he still be a spell-less level 1 Ranger with effective casting level of 20? If you had a Cleric 1 and Sorcerer 1 after the Chameleon 10, then added 19 Ioun Stones +1 Caster, would it effect both or just one?
Thinking about this lead in, let me know what you think:
Changling Race
Creation Feat Human Heritage (now "human", required RAW for Able Learner)
Bonus "Human" Feat (Able Learner)
Human Heritage doesn't give you another starting feat, it only grants you 4 skill points. By your RAW Changlings can't take Able Learner or get into Chameleon. But by reading the dang book and using commen sense we know that since Changlings are a product of human/doppleganger hybrids they qualify for both. So drop Human Heritage.
Human Heritage doesn't give you another starting feat, it only grants you 4 skill points. By your RAW Changlings can't take Able Learner or get into Chameleon. But by reading the dang book and using commen sense we know that since Changlings are a product of human/doppleganger hybrids they qualify for both. So drop Human Heritage.
Ok, I made a mistake on the Human Heritage. Thanks for the correction.
But according to Wizards website, you can join Chameleon with a Changeling, so I assume that means you should be able to get Able Learner with a Changeling.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1
I assume if they ever reprint the Chameleon class in a book, they will use this website version which includes Changelings.
I'm looking for an interesting trapmonkey character for a 16th level game I'll be starting in, and looking at the Chameleon abilities to enhance my existing rogue powers. Problem is, I don't seem to have enough skill points to maintain the core rogue skills: Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Hide, Move Silently, Climb, Tumble, Spot, and Listen, at least.
Currently I'm looking at something like Rogue 5/Chameleon 10/Thief-Acrobat 1, or maybe just Rogue 6/Chameleon 10 for the extra skill points, but the Chameleon's only 4 skill points isn't quite enough, even with Int16 and the human bonus points. My other concern is the low low saves of the Chameleon - but I don't see a way of keeping them up without sacrificing the skill points from Rogue.
Anyone got any ideas for the build?
You can get by without maxxed Open Lock, instead taking 20 most of the time with masterwork thieves' tools and/or magical bonuses. Another option is to get an adamantite weapon and just cut your way through the door.
That's a fair point about Open Lock, though. I'll take a look to see what kind of bonuses I can accrue from items and such.
I've realised that if I want to skillmonkey, a level of Exemplar (so Rogue 5/Chameleon 10/Exemplar 1) would be a far better choice than Thief-Acrobat for that sixteenth level.
Anyone have any ideas how I can make sure my saves stay good? Normally I'm a good-saves man, I hate the idea of having bad ones.
Ok, I made a mistake on the Human Heritage. Thanks for the correction.
But according to Wizards website, you can join Chameleon with a Changeling, so I assume that means you should be able to get Able Learner with a Changeling.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1
I assume if they ever reprint the Chameleon class in a book, they will use this website version which includes Changelings.
The book mentions it too. That's what I was saying, that Changlings are considered human/doppleganger for the purpose of Able Learner and Chameleon.
Good points. I generally don't feel that spells are adequate as complete replacements for Climb, as they often don't have the necessary duration and can be dispelled without warning. An Overland Flight could work though. Hmm.
Seriously, when was the last time you used climb much? When was the last time you spent time hanging on a wall, with your dex bonus to AC denied, during combat?
Spider Climb has a 10min/level duration, which is usually long enough for most jobs. Depending on the books allowed (and original creature type), Alter Self can give a climb, fly, or burrow speed and that has a 10min/caster level duration too.
As a chameleon, you don't have bad saves. Note that every aptitude focus gives a bonus on particular types of saves. You also get the Ability Boons which can add to saves if applied to the right stats.
Although you probably don't want to drop Spot/Listen. You could probably get by with 1/2 ranks in each after the cut from 8 skills/level to 4 skills/level. In that opposed check, the advantage is almost always to the sneaky character due to the distance penalty on spot/listen (-1 per 10ft) and the fact that there aren't enough spot/listen boosting pieces of gear. Although Spot and Listen are nice for spotting less stealthy characters, you're rarely going to be able to spot/hear a similar-level rogue anyway. Listen can also be completely defeated with an application of the silence spell too.
Seriously, when was the last time you used climb much? When was the last time you spent time hanging on a wall, with your dex bonus to AC denied, during combat?
Spider Climb has a 10min/level duration, which is usually long enough for most jobs. Depending on the books allowed (and original creature type), Alter Self can give a climb, fly, or burrow speed and that has a 10min/caster level duration too.
Ok, I haven't spent much time in combat while climbing, but that's partly because I try not to. On the other hand, I have had to use the Climb skill plenty of times (as a Str 8 sorcerer, too...), and with preparation for spells, if the duration expires during a long day's climb or the spell is dispelled, that it over.
As a chameleon, you don't have bad saves. Note that every aptitude focus gives a bonus on particular types of saves. You also get the Ability Boons which can add to saves if applied to the right stats.
Fair point. As I have no experience of the Chameleon in play, I have a hard time seeing how it all fits together. It's part of the reason that I want to play one - to see how well they work.
Although you probably don't want to drop Spot/Listen. You could probably get by with 1/2 ranks in each after the cut from 8 skills/level to 4 skills/level. In that opposed check, the advantage is almost always to the sneaky character due to the distance penalty on spot/listen (-1 per 10ft) and the fact that there aren't enough spot/listen boosting pieces of gear. Although Spot and Listen are nice for spotting less stealthy characters, you're rarely going to be able to spot/hear a similar-level rogue anyway. Listen can also be completely defeated with an application of the silence spell too.
On the other hand, getting ambushed by a bunch of slightly lower-level rogues is both avoidable and embarrassing. I've also never been ambushed by someone using a Silence spell, not least because it completely prevents the ambusher from hearing as well. If it's maxed out, with a decent Wisdom (I'll be looking at 16-22) and Eyes of the Eagle or similar you can give an equal-level rogue a challenge at least. Even if it's difficult, that's better than no chance at all.
I'm looking for an interesting trapmonkey character for a 16th level game I'll be starting in, and looking at the Chameleon abilities to enhance my existing rogue powers. Problem is, I don't seem to have enough skill points to maintain the core rogue skills: Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Hide, Move Silently, Climb, Tumble, Spot, and Listen, at least.
Currently I'm looking at something like Rogue 5/Chameleon 10/Thief-Acrobat 1, or maybe just Rogue 6/Chameleon 10 for the extra skill points, but the Chameleon's only 4 skill points isn't quite enough, even with Int16 and the human bonus points. My other concern is the low low saves of the Chameleon - but I don't see a way of keeping them up without sacrificing the skill points from Rogue.
Anyone got any ideas for the build?
Okay, so take a look at those skills - Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble can all be based on Dex - Tactile Trapsmith from Complete Adventurer for Search/Disable Device. If you're boosting Dex by 6, that's effectively +3 to all those skills, or in other words, Chameleon then becomes a 6 skill point per level class without even picking the Stealth Focus - you don't need to max out any of those skills because you'll do that by adding the +6 Dex. Because you're likely really boosting Search/Disable Device by about another +5 each(26 Dex, 16 Int), that's a really good feat choice.
Saves of the Chameleon are not that bad. If you pick Combat/Arcane, it is a +7/3/7 saves class, which goes very well with Rogue. Divine can be used for Divine Insight, which will add +10 to your Disable Device roll - that's a lot of skill points saved.
I'd go Rogue 4/Ranger 2/Chameleon 10 - the Ranger levels give you Track/Survival, always a good skill to have as a Rogue - traps often have tracks from people either walking around them or someone setting it up as an example. And it gives you a bonus feat. Plus Rogue 4 means you don't lose that phenomenal dex bonus to AC ever...
Okay, so take a look at those skills - Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble can all be based on Dex - Tactile Trapsmith from Complete Adventurer for Search/Disable Device. If you're boosting Dex by 6, that's effectively +3 to all those skills, or in other words, Chameleon then becomes a 6 skill point per level class without even picking the Stealth Focus - you don't need to max out any of those skills because you'll do that by adding the +6 Dex. Because you're likely really boosting Search/Disable Device by about another +5 each(26 Dex, 16 Int), that's a really good feat choice.
...
I'd go Rogue 4/Ranger 2/Chameleon 10 - the Ranger levels give you Track/Survival, always a good skill to have as a Rogue - traps often have tracks from people either walking around them or someone setting it up as an example. And it gives you a bonus feat. Plus Rogue 4 means you don't lose that phenomenal dex bonus to AC ever...
I was planning more on putting the ability boon into whichever spellcasting stat I needed at the time, for more bonus spells. With 16 as a base, +6 neatly grants up to a bonus 6th level spell. Perhaps something to think about with the floating bonus feat, perhaps. And I'm keen to keep the 16th level open for a second prestige class - as mentioned above, I'm currently looking at Exemplar.
I was planning more on putting the ability boon into whichever spellcasting stat I needed at the time, for more bonus spells. With 16 as a base, +6 neatly grants up to a bonus 6th level spell. Perhaps something to think about with the floating bonus feat, perhaps. And I'm keen to keep the 16th level open for a second prestige class - as mentioned above, I'm currently looking at Exemplar.
Sure, but is a 6th level spell worth not getting +18 Skill points on skills you consider important - and that's ignoring the +3 to hit and +3 to your AC, both very useful things...
You'll need dexterity for your arcane focus, and you'll need dexterity for your stealth focus, and it won't hurt any of your other foci either. The only other stat I could think of raising instead is maybe constitution for some more hitpoints or early on raising intelligence if you have an odd number.
I'd like to continue discussion of the character build, now that I've had time to work one up; is here appropriate, or shall I start a new thread?
I also see a lot of people advocating the Illumian for a Chameleon character - but I don't think that Illumians meet the requirement of being a human or a doppleganger. Having the subtype isn't the same as being of the race.
Perhaps you should stop all of the elf subtypes from getting into elf PrCs then? Illumians and other human-subtyped creatures are just human subraces thus they can count as humans for virtually any purpose.
On the skills point: You're saying you don't have enough skill points, I'm suggesting ways to cut back on them.
If you're just wanting to climb all day then take a few ranks in climb, but why do you need it maxxed? You can get 8 ranks in it before the switch to chameleon, which if you're strong enough is enough to reliably climb up an average wall without rope or anything (take 10 with a +2 strength bonus). Unless there are other climbers in the group then maxxed-out climb will just take you away from the rest of the party, so there's relatively little point in being that much better than anyone else. It's noteable that taking the wild focus also gives you a +2/+4 on climb checks, and that if you ever come up against something that's harder to climb then it probably won't be a 24-hour thing so you can use a spell to climb it. You can still put some points into it, just don't feel that you need to max it.
If you don't have enough skill points then you're going to need to take them away from something. Listen and Spot are pretty-much the lesser of evils compared to the trap-monkey, Stealth, or Mobility (tumble) skills.
More Dexterity is always nice...
I'd like to continue discussion of the character build, now that I've had time to work one up; is here appropriate, or shall I start a new thread?
Generally best to start a new thread - gets the most viewership...
Perhaps you should stop all of the elf subtypes from getting into elf PrCs then? Illumians and other human-subtyped creatures are just human subraces thus they can count as humans for virtually any purpose.
Well, to be honest, it would depend on the subrace and the class. I wouldn't normally allow a Drow into the Seeker of the Misty Isle PrC, for example, and a Grey Elf is probably inappropriate for the Wildrunner. The prime example of what I mean that I can think of is goblins. Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Bugbears are each a distinct race, but they all have the (Goblinoid) subtype. Alternately - would you allow a lizardman to take a PrC with the requirement "Race: Kobold"? Would you allow Underfolk, or Skulks, or even a Half-Giant with the Human Heritage feat, to get into Chameleon?
If you're just wanting to climb all day then take a few ranks in climb, but why do you need it maxxed? You can get 8 ranks in it before the switch to chameleon, which if you're strong enough is enough to reliably climb up an average wall without rope or anything (take 10 with a +2 strength bonus). Unless there are other climbers in the group then maxxed-out climb will just take you away from the rest of the party, so there's relatively little point in being that much better than anyone else. It's noteable that taking the wild focus also gives you a +2/+4 on climb checks, and that if you ever come up against something that's harder to climb then it probably won't be a 24-hour thing so you can use a spell to climb it. You can still put some points into it, just don't feel that you need to max it.
If you don't have enough skill points then you're going to need to take them away from something. Listen and Spot are pretty-much the lesser of evils compared to the trap-monkey, Stealth, or Mobility (tumble) skills.
OK, I'm convinced. I will start a new thread about my character sometime soon, and we'll see what's what there.
Well, to be honest, it would depend on the subrace and the class. I wouldn't normally allow a Drow into the Seeker of the Misty Isle PrC, for example, and a Grey Elf is probably inappropriate for the Wildrunner.
If a grey elf wanted to go into wildrunner then they're probably not the stereotypical up-tight grey elf thus I'd allow them into it. I doubt an evil subterranian-drow would get into Seeker, but that's primarily because you need to be inducted by another member. If the drow was good, worshipping Eilistree or similar, and generally allied with the elven pantheon then I would definately allow them to take it because they're elves.
The prime example of what I mean that I can think of is goblins. Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Bugbears are each a distinct race, but they all have the (Goblinoid) subtype.
If there was a goblin-only PRC then I would allow any of the goblinoid races to take it, yes.
Alternately - would you allow a lizardman to take a PrC with the requirement "Race: Kobold"?
No, because he does not have the Kobold subtype. Meanwhile the fact that Illumians have the Human subtype is significant.
Would you allow Underfolk, or Skulks, or even a Half-Giant with the Human Heritage feat, to get into Chameleon?
Yes, as long as they can get able learner somehow. That's what the Human subtype means: They're humans.
If there was a goblin-only PRC then I would allow any of the goblinoid races to take it, yes.
So if a PrC had "Race: Hobgoblin" as a prerequisite, you'd allow Bugbears to join?
No, because he does not have the Kobold subtype.
There is no (Kobold) subtype. That's my point. There isn't a (Lizardman) or (Troglodyte) subtype, either - they are all Humanoid (Reptilian).
When a PRC has a race requirement they usually indicate a type. But just like a ranger's favored enemy or the bane weapon enhancement, some types require further description. Humanoid and Outsider are the two most often used this way.
So you'll almost never see a PRC that requires "Race: Humanoid" It's always something like "Race: Elf", or "Race: Dwarf." When you're asked what your race is, you don't tell them "humanoid," do you? Elf isn't a type. Dwarf isn't a type. Human isn't a type. But they are all subtypes. Or at least this is emphasized as truth now that the races books have been published.
I really don't like any of the human "subraces" presented in Races of Destiny, but I'm not denying they qualify as "human." If they don't, then what exactly is the human subtype for?
I'm playing around with Fighter2/Rogue3/Warshaper4/Chameleon10/(Something)1 ideas, And that low Will save seems pretty dangerous...
Do any of these builds compensate for having low saves? Obviously, Cleric/Rogue builds, or Paladin or Monk builds will do fine, but the various Rogue2/Fighter2/Ranger1/ChameleonX builds seem like they're just asking for trouble.
I'm playing around with Fighter2/Rogue3/Warshaper4/Chameleon10/(Something)1 ideas, And that low Will save seems pretty dangerous...
As pretty much every Chameleon build is going to take the Divine or Arcane part at some point, they're going to have +7 to Will Saves from the Chameleon part of the class.
I really don't like any of the human "subraces" presented in Races of Destiny, but I'm not denying they qualify as "human." If they don't, then what exactly is the human subtype for?
There's human the subtype and human the race. They're not the same thing - otherwise, humans qualify for the illumian PrCs and vice-versa. The writer of the book doesn't seem to think that Chameleon is a class for Illumians when he's writing up what PrCs they can take.
By saying Illumian the race in the book for Loredelver and Shadow Sentinel, they're also saying Human the race for Chameleon...
There's human the subtype and human the race. They're not the same thing - otherwise, humans qualify for the illumian PrCs and vice-versa.
The sidebar on page 150 of Races of Destiny states that Humanoids with the Human subtype qualify for feats and prestige classes that require one to be Human.
Also, page 90 doesn't mention Chameleons as a PrC that's a special option for Illumians, despite mentioning it for humans on page 32.
Sure, RAW definitely implies they should be allowed to do it, but the result of applying the RAW is so obviously against intent that I think it is unusable.
The sidebar on page 150 of Races of Destiny states that Humanoids with the Human subtype qualify for feats and prestige classes that require one to be Human.
Then classes/feats that use the Race Illumian can be qualified for by Humans. As Loredelver has no prereqs that can't be met by a human, they can qualify for it. In the case of Illumians, either the race means something or it doesn't. It can't have it both ways - if the writer of Loredelver wanted it to be not available to humans, he either thought it wasn't or he would have given it a sigil pre-req.
False Inference. A -> B != B -> A
An Illumian -is- Human. A Human is not necessarily an Illumian. You can't go from the specific to the general like that.
False Inference. A -> B != B -> A
An Illumian -is- Human. A Human is not necessarily an Illumian. You can't go from the specific to the general like that.
No, that's not how it works...Illumians are not Human, they're Humanoids of subtype Human. If the writer of Illumians agreed with you, they would have listed Chameleon as one of the possible PrCs available to them as a special option.
When they say Human is required, they mean one of two things:
A: Humanoid(Human) or B: Race is specifically Human.
When they say Illumian is required, they mean one of two things:
A: Humanoid(Human) or B: Race is specifically Illumian.
Now either it is A or B. It isn't both. You can't have it both ways.
No, that's not how it works...Illumians are not Human, they're Humanoids of subtype Human. If the writer of Illumians agreed with you, they would have listed Chameleon as one of the possible PrCs available to them as a special option.
When they say Human is required, they mean one of two things:
A: Humanoid(Human) or B: Race is specifically Human.
When they say Illumian is required, they mean one of two things:
A: Humanoid(Human) or B: Race is specifically Illumian.
Now either it is A or B. It isn't both. You can't have it both ways.
Er.... All 6 year old boys are human, but not all humans are 6 year old boys....
If Cub Scouts allows 6 year old boys to join, that doesn't mean that 80 year old women are encouraged to join as well...
I know it might be seen as logic rather then RAW... but... the aspects of my mind that use logic make me believe that while an Illumian could be a Chameleon - a non Illumian (dispite being human) would not be able to become a Loredelver.
There's an obvious edit error here in that essentially, there is no such thing as Illumians - what they should have done was given them both types, human and illumian as they suggest in the variant sidebar on page 150 and then explained what that meant. Again, as they did in the sidebar. They likely would have said something to the effect of they do not qualify for human-only PrCs.
Instead, what they did was is they made the actual race important, because there's no other way to interpret what an Illumian is except through intent. And if we go that route, it appears clear that the intent was to not allow them to be Chameleons.
Er.... All 6 year old boys are human, but not all humans are 6 year old boys....
If Cub Scouts allows 6 year old boys to join, that doesn't mean that 80 year old women are encouraged to join as well...
I know it might be seen as logic rather then RAW... but... the aspects of my mind that use logic make me believe that while an Illumian could be a Chameleon - a non Illumian (dispite being human) would not be able to become a Loredelver.
For example, there are feats that require your race to be kobold. But there is no kobold type or subtype. Instead there is Humanoid (Reptilian) and there are feats and class features that the reference this but not specifically kobolds. There are also spells and class features that reference just Humanoid.
But D&D now has a human subtype, without specifically renaming humans. If the rules reference human by the subtype in the same way the reference elf, orc, or dwarf, then we can't actually tell the different between when something is exclusively referencing the original human race or its subtype off-shoots. We could go with the old TSR GammaWorld Standard and just call them Pure Strain Humans for our own house-rules and forum conversations, but RAW isn't clear on this issue yet.
After all, Arcane Archer lists, "Elf or Half-elf" as its racial requirements, not "Elf subtype or Elf blood." We usually assume that High Elves, Wild Elves, and Gray Elves all qualify as an Elf for this requirement.
So now we get into the sticky area of RAI for the Chameleon. In which case humans are picked as qualifying for Chameleon because of their versatility and ability to persue multiple classes with ease. Illumians also accomplish this to an even better degree somewhat. One of the reasons I hate the race really. So I would say it's not a stretch to think that Illumians would be considered.
I personally don't think I'd ever have this problem as a DM because I think the Illumians are one of the few races I've seen that warrant at least a +1 LA that can't be bought off and that would scare most of my players away from it.
I definately think that now there needs to be a way to clearify the difference between human subtypes and actual humans. I don't think that Illumians should be qualifying for Red Wizard of Thay, for instance.
Then classes/feats that use the Race Illumian can be qualified for by Humans.
That isn't what the sidebar says. It does not say that creatures with the same subtype as a particular race qualify for feats and prestige classes as though they were a member of that race.
The sidebar says that Humanoids with the human subtype qualify for feats and prestige classes as though they were human.
You're treating this as a general rule, when it is, in fact, a very specific rule that only applies to exactly one situation.
As Loredelver has no prereqs that can't be met by a human, they can qualify for it.
It most certainly does have one. Race: Illumian.
Unless you can supply a quote from Races of Destiny that states that humanoids with the human subtype qualify for prestige classes and feats as though they were Illumian, then you don't have a leg to stand on here.
In the case of Illumians, either the race means something or it doesn't. It can't have it both ways - if the writer of Loredelver wanted it to be not available to humans, he either thought it wasn't or he would have given it a sigil pre-req.
Nobody is trying to have it both ways. Nobody has ever claimed that humanoids with the human subtype qualify for Illumian feats and prestige classes.
Also, page 90 doesn't mention Chameleons as a PrC that's a special option for Illumians, despite mentioning it for humans on page 32.
That isn't even rules text, unlike the quote I have provided.
Sure, RAW definitely implies they should be allowed to do it, but the result of applying the RAW is so obviously against intent that I think it is unusable.
No, the RAW explicitly states that they are allowed to do it. Further, you have not given a single valid point that shows any contradiction between RAW and intent.
When they say Human is required, they mean one of two things:
A: Humanoid(Human) or B: Race is specifically Human.
When they say Illumian is required, they mean one of two things:
A: Humanoid(Human) or B: Race is specifically Illumian.
Now either it is A or B. It isn't both. You can't have it both ways.
Once again, you're extrapolating a general rule from a specific exception to the real general rule. Here is how it really is:
When they say Human is required, they mean one thing:
Humanoid(Human)
When they say Illumian is required, they mean one thing:
Race is specifically Illumian.
This is a very basic interaction between a general rule and a specific exception. I really did expect more from you.
There's an obvious edit error here in that essentially, there is no such thing as Illumians
You just made up a rule that doesn't actually exist and this is the result. Your comments do not in any way reflect the reality of the situation due to your insistence upon this nonexistant rule.
These limitations mean that many options in this book ae off limits to such races. At the DM's discretion, half-human and humanlike races can be grouped together with humans as humanoids with the human subtype (rather than their own subtype). This means that such races qualify as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class...
So being grouped together with Humanoids who have the Human subtype allows you to qualify for feats and prestige-classes as a human, yet you would claim that creatures who actually are humanoids with the human subtype do not qualify because they are not human?
You claim that Chameleon is not available to Illumians because it's not listed under special illumian options on P90? Of course it's not! It's not a special illumian option because any other human (or doppleganger or changeling) can take it. Read the entry before you try and read into the absence of something from it!
But your quote clearly shows that it's DM's option. If it was really the case that subtype = race, then it would say that, and not simply reiterate Rule 0.
No, my quote is part of a sidebar which explains how an optional rule works. The optional rule is letting other creatures without the Human subtype count as Humanoids with the Human subtype. The explanation is that Humanoids with the Human subtype are meant to qualify for Feats and PrCs as Humans do.
So prestige classes and feats that are based on racial intollerance even within the human race, such as Red Wizard of Thay, are difficult to exclude from the other human subtype races.
Another option is to consider that if one group of humans can have a particularly racist organisation against the other group of humans, then the other group of humans could just as easily have started a similar organisation against the first group of humans. It's just human nature. In this case it's merely a roleplaying restriction.
Whether they are broken or not, they are still cool builds.
Rogue 4/Cleric 1/Warshaper 5/Cameleon 10
Going TWF, and will be the party's only rogue type.
DM is allowing me to do this as a Tiefling (I know Tiefling doesn't qualify, but the DM is allowing it so I'm not going to argue!)
Starting Stats:
Strength 15
Dexterity 19
Constitution 15
Intelligence 20
Wisdom 13
Charisma 14
Feats:
TWF
Improved TWF (Second extra attack)
Greater TWF (Third extra attack)
Combat Reflexes
Improved Init
(extend spell from cleric domain as a given)
Persistant Spell
Able Learner
BAB +16
2d6 sneak/flanking attack
Evason
Uncanny dodge
extra turnings from Cleric class for fueling divine metamagic
Imune to crits and stuns
extra 5' reach
+4 str and con
I'm not that big of a number cruncher, but I think this will make a pretty nasty combo while still being the party rogue.
So anyone suggest improvements, or critiques?
Also, your BAB isn't +16 since you took four 3/4 attack bonus classes and only took one of them to a multiple of 4. That's a no-no. Your real BAB is 3 (Rogue) + 0 (Cleric) + 7 (Chameleon) + 3 (Warshaper) = +13. Sorry but that's bad.
My advice? This could be easily fixed by changing your race to Changling, and dropping the last level of Warshaper for another level of Cleric.
Also, I am concerned about not having enough turning attempts per day for fueling the metamagic. Fighter would give me more feats, pally would give more turning attempts if I took it to 4 or 5.
Course, warshaper does have some nice goodies, like the extra 5 foot reach, and +4 to str and con. I've read the entire thread, but there was so much in it I've got a bit of overload. Just not sure what would be really good for optimizing.
This guy is the party's rogue, and I really like the TWF. I want the persistent divine meta. Everything else... I'm open for suggestions.
Thanks.
A Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 4/Zhentarim spy 4/Chameleon 8 is a solid roguish build with good synergy in infiltration and spywork. You get a BAB of +16, +4d6 sneak attack, and actual mechanics to give you a bunch of fool-proof cover identities. And the Decietful feat isn't so wasted here.
How are you going to be able to use the Warshaper abilities?
If the GM is going to allow the Tiefling to have the Warshaper stuff active, why not stay Warshaper?
Also, I agree about the divine persistant metamagic. Just because you can does not mean you should.
My DM is allowing me Warshaper because of a magic item that allows me to change shape, so I am probably going Warshaper. (I know this is not by the book.)
Given that, what should I do if I don't go for the persistant divine metamagic?
What I was thinking of doing was Polymorph into Firbolg form every morning, and boost with the DPmeta. With Warshaper, he'd have extra 5ft reach, +4 str adn +4 con. Add that to his Two weapon fighting and he'd be doing some pretty massive damage.
Warshaper+Chameleon is a natural choice for a Changling, but it's not a natural or optimized choice for Chameleon's in general. There are just too many situations where you just have empty class-levels unless you're effected by shapechanging spells. Now if your DM is letting you have those bonuses all the time or he has given you a shapechanging item that is at will or has huge durations . . . well it's not so bad but then my opinion of your DM is rather low. You don't need optimization then since he'll already let you do whatever you want.
Divine Metamagic Persistant is agreed by many as a cheap/broken trick. It's not the point of being a Chameleon anymore than it's the point of being Cleric. In other words, you already have a powerful and fun class, you probably won't suffer if you decide to not abuse this rule.
Also, you can only use Divine Metamagic on divine spells . . . I don't know every divine spell-list in existance but polymorph isn't on any of the divine spell-lists that I've encountered. Polymorph-Any-Object and Shapechange are, but those are outside the grasp of a Chameleon.
I don't know every divine spell-list in existance but polymorph isn't on any of the divine spell-lists that I've encountered. Polymorph-Any-Object and Shapechange are, but those are outside the grasp of a Chameleon.
Adept. DMG
My DM is allowing a couple bending/breakings of the rules, but he's a pretty good DM none the less.
Here's the two arguments I could see:
Full caster progression, mixed classes such as eldritch knight (full bab, full caster-1), arcane trickster (full caster + sneak attack + abilities), mystic theurge (full dual caster) are to be forbidden because they can gain supercharged abilities very quickly within a gestalt campaign. Full caster classes are more over-powered this way because of the gains that can be achieved (allegedly) through the mixing of classes that are already similar to gestalt with yet another class (kind of like triple classing).
So, either it should be allowed because it doesn't STACK with previous caster levels, or it shouldn't because it can effectively be 2 classes at once.
Therefore, either forbid it. . . or remove the double aptitude focus?
Chameleon is an extremely powerful choice in gestalt, however. That's largely because it is that powerful, but chameleon possibly gains even more when used in gestalt so I could see how people may disallow it on those grounds alone.
Anyone done a good incarnum build with the chameleon? I'm thinking that a level or two of incarnate or totemist would blend nicely with the chameleon.
Well, this one was suggested to me:
If you want utility, you really can't go wrong with things from MoI. I'd recomend something like Rogue 2/Incarnate 2/Cleric (Planning and ???) 1/Chameleon 10/Incarnate 3-7. Use the various soulmelds to augment your role that day and use your chameleon floating feet to cherrypick the various Azure/Cobalt/etc feats appropriate for your temporary role, or to snag a soulmeld from the totemist list (phase cloak/blink shirt) based on why you're doing that day. Snag divine metamagic: persistent around 12 to make the most of your clerical buffs.
This is a very, very rough build:
1) Rogue 1 (sub level- trapfinding is nice but if necessary you can get it with a spell, a soulmeld, or through chameleon, it might hurt the party a little not to have it right away, but just send the 'forged in first...)- Able Learner
2) Rogue 2 (evasion is always nice)
3) Incarnate 1 (spittle is a great weapon at low levels)- feat of choice
4) Incarnate 2
5) Incarante 3 (bump up that cap)
6) Chameleon 1: extra essentia
7) Chameleon 2
8) Chameleon 3
9) Cleric 1 (Planning + choice): Persistent Spell
10) Chameleon 4
11) Chameleon 5
12) Chameleon 6: Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell (start buying nightsticks and give yourself fun buffs)
13) Chameleon 7
14) Chameleon 8
15) Chameleon 9: if Dragon Mag avilable: aLternate Source Spell (allows you to divine persist arcane spells at -1 caster level), otherwise the MoI feat that bumps the cap on essentia feats by one
16) Chameleon 10
17) Incarnate 4
18) Incarnate 5: the MoI feat that bumps the cap by 1 for one soulmeld/day
19) Incarnate 6
20) Incarnate 7
You've got naaaasty MAD in the mid-late game, but by then you hould have the buffs to compensate. You'll be able to pick two or three things a day to be INSANELY good at, but you'll be average at most everythign else. You'll be able to pull some surprises out of nowhere using the floating feet + Incanrnum feats.
Remeber to use your casting to max out your essentia investments when stuiff hits the fan.
The floating feat + incarnum is quite nice.
(Note: The build above doesn't qualify for "Alternative Spell Source", since it can't cast divine and arcane spells for the purposes of prerequisites.)
(Note2: 2 or 3 levels of incarnate + bonus essensia is very good -- you can get +10 or +12 to many cool skills)
David
For a psionic foucs, I would have something like:
A Rogue 2/Incarnate 3/Chamleon 10 vs. Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 9
Both have 6th level spells
- The chameleon has a somewhat higher caster level.
- The chameleon has access to all spells.
- The chameleon has a floating feat and +6 to an attribute of choice.
Starting at level 7, just as a caster, the Chameleon is better at being a Mystic Theurge than the classic Mystic Theurge. How funny is that?
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=557439
:D
Someone with psionic ability with the ability EVERY DAY to redetermine what his psionic powers are is more powerful then any psychic warrior and likely a lot of psions.
So unless you come up with an Erudite-like progression, possibly, or massively restrict the powers known to even less then a psychic warrior, I'd have to say you are exceeding the grasp of the Chameleon. And allowing them to change every day...mmm, not good with a spell point system at all.
===Aelryinth
I'm afraid I'm against this on the same grounds that Chameleons don't use Cha as a casting stat...they aren't spontaneous casters, and the Psionic framework is more spontaneous casting then a sorceror is.
Well neither the Psion nor the Psychic Warrior use Cha either. ;)
So unless you come up with an Erudite-like progression, possibly, or massively restrict the powers known to even less then a psychic warrior, I'd have to say you are exceeding the grasp of the Chameleon. And allowing them to change every day...mmm, not good with a spell point system at all.
I disagree. I actually think that adding psionics wouldn't break the Chameleon any more than it already is. It's possible to come up with solutions to limit the powers gained if needed. The Erudite-like limitation is one way. Having them carry around a "book" of power stones that they have to address is another. I'm sure that more could be found too.
Human
Rogue2/Fighter2/Cleric1/chameleon2
1. Rogue (Able Lerner, Nymf's kiss)
2. Fighter (Combat Expertise)
3. Fighter (Power Attack, Divine might)
4. Rogue
5. Cleric Domains: Elf (Point Blank Shot), Time (Imp. init.)
6. Chameleon (Extra Turning)
7. Chameleon
BaB + 4
Lots of skillpoints
Lots of feats
And I got a free feat wich I can change every day (Chameleon lvl 2).
Any thoughts?
Im going to play a level 7 character in my next campain and i was going to play something like this:
Human
Rogue2/Fighter2/Cleric1/chameleon2
1. Rogue (Able Lerner, Nymf's kiss)
2. Fighter (Combat Expertise)
3. Fighter (Power Attack, Divine might)
4. Rogue
5. Cleric Domains: Elf (Point Blank Shot), Time (Imp. init.)
6. Chameleon (Extra Turning)
7. Chameleon
BaB + 4
Lots of skillpoints
Lots of feats
And I got a free feat wich I can change every day (Chameleon lvl 2).
Any thoughts?
You are taking a lot of fighter feats, suggesting that you want your build to be very good at combat ... however, I don't see how your feats accomplish this.
Take a look at http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=163005 for an iconic example of how to use feat chains to be effective. Also this thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=416752
Also, tell us what you want to be good at, and you'll get more specific feedback.
Right now, it looks like you are trying to be a Chameleon/fighter/"trap/skill monkey", but all that appears to be happening is that you are watering down your "fighter" and your "trap/skillmonkey" down.
There are some very good examples of Chameleon/Fighters in this thread. Pellanor and I have been working out some Chameleon/Skill monkey's in this thread:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=612842
Best,
David
There are some very good examples of Chameleon/Fighters in this thread. Pellanor and I have been working out some Chameleon/Skill monkey's in this thread.
Actually, most of them are Chameleon/Skill Monkeys in this thread. The general problem of Chameleon is that the class is so amazingly good that you want to finish it at level 15 if possible.
Which means you're level 16 and not getting the +16 BAB or clerical casting will really hurt in Epic.
The build is as follows:
Human, Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Thief-Acrobat 4/Chameleon 10/Exemplar 1
See his thread (linked above) for a complete breakdown of the build, but it is very much playable from level 1 on, using the rogue/ranger levels and thief-acrobat to be an excellent scout/skillmonkey and relatively able combattant (especially as an archer, since this build would make excellent use of the Kip Up "trick" I posted on a while back).
At level 10 it starts up with Chameleon, pausing in between to take a level in Exemplar when able. Chameleon's stealth focus works even in an anti-magic field, being an (Ex) ability, and by high levels you should be able to break into anywhere. When not picking an Amazing lock and disabling a trap without anyone noticing inside an anti-magic field, it can pick up Combat Focus or Divine Focus for fun as a bowman.
The only required feats are Able Learner (which you'd definitely want anyways for a skill monkey) and Skill Focus. This gives you tons of free feats to toy around with, which is also nice. Take your ability boost in Dex, and for your focus do Combat/Arcane or Combat/Divine, and switch to stealth if you know you might encounter an AMF (or rapidly refocus yourself).
I didn't create the build or anything, but it's one of my favorite builds I've seen on the boards, and hence thought it deserved a place here. Again, see ck2001wendt's excellent Breaking & Entering thread for a full description of all the cool stuff it can do.
Actually, most of them are Chameleon/Skill Monkeys in this thread. The general problem of Chameleon is that the class is so amazingly good that you want to finish it at level 15 if possible.
Which means you're level 16 and not getting the +16 BAB or clerical casting will really hurt in Epic.
Mommy was an Orc,
I really respect your opinion, as you've made a large number of good posts, but I don't understand the point you're making. Hmm.
Many (although not all) of the builds in this thread have +16 BAB by level 20. (Although none of them *can* have significant clerical casting if they take more than a couple of levels of Chameleon).
Basically, it seems like people usually decide to go either for combat or for "Skillmonkey".
- If you go for combat, you typically get +16 BAB by level 20. You also have an ok skill selection and skillmonkey abilities - but the truth is that you are rarely going to have your stealth focus choosen. Chameleon/Master Thower is great example.
- If you go for skillmonkey, you have phenomenal skillmonkey abilities and so-so combat. Changeling Rogue/Marshall/Incarnate/Chameleon is a great example.
Is there something I'm missing?
David
Mommy was an Orc,
I really respect your opinion, as you've made a large number of good posts, but I don't understand the point you're making. Hmm.
Basically, it seems like people usually decide to go either for combat or for "Skillmonkey".
- If you go for combat, you typically get +16 BAB by level 20. You also have an ok skill selection and skillmonkey abilities - but the truth is that you are rarely going to have your stealth focus choosen. Chameleon/Master Thower is great example.
- If you go for skillmonkey, you have phenomenal skillmonkey abilities and so-so combat. Changeling Rogue/Marshall/Incarnate/Chameleon is a great example.
Is there something I'm missing?
David
The +6 Bonus to Dexterity. Particularly with a feat like Tactile Trapfinder, a Chameleon doesn't need the Stealth Focus as it basically turns a skillmonkey oriented Chameleon into a 7-8 skill point class. The Stealth Focus also gives Competence bonuses, which makes it compete with skill bonus magic items.
As most of the builds tend to have Rogue 3 as an entry or at least 4 skill point classes, the question simply is what are you doing with your last 4 levels - if you're not going Epic, it doesn't make a lot of difference - we're talking about 16 or so skill points at most. If you are going Epic, then you want either the Persistent Divine Power cheese or the +16 BAB for the iterative attack.
The +6 Bonus to Dexterity. Particularly with a feat like Tactile Trapfinder, a Chameleon doesn't need the Stealth Focus as it basically turns a skillmonkey oriented Chameleon into a 7-8 skill point class. The Stealth Focus also gives Competence bonuses, which makes it compete with skill bonus magic items.
As most of the builds tend to have Rogue 3 as an entry or at least 4 skill point classes, the question simply is what are you doing with your last 4 levels - if you're not going Epic, it doesn't make a lot of difference - we're talking about 16 or so skill points at most. If you are going Epic, then you want either the Persistent Divine Power cheese or the +16 BAB for the iterative attack.
Ah. I see your point. I do agree that it makes many Chameleons skill-monkeys, but not necessarily a great skillmonkey -- rather, an ok skillmonkey (example: Chameleon/Master Thrower).
However, re-reading some of the thread (which I had read over a year ago), I realize there were a great many skill-monkeys in the thread, and I just forgot. Sorry about this.
Very Best,
David
Should probably work, unlike other Chameleon abilities the feat can be used to qualify for things. Though Psychic reformation might be a lot easier way so that you could still use your Chameleon feat as you'd like. That power's as cheap as hell if you consider what it can do.
Psychic Reformation doesn't work like that. You have to "rebuild" a level at a time, and everything still has to be legal, so you'd have to have Illithid Heritage and another Illithid feat pre-Illithid Grapple. Using the Chameleon feat would lock you for no time at alll, if done properly.
Seems silly you could do this but not cast the spell on the item.
What does he have a spellbook for if he can't scribe a scroll?
He obviously doesn't qualify for scribe scroll.
Cast the spell into a ring. Use the ring on the item.
Seems silly you could do this but not cast the spell on the item.
What does he have a spellbook for if he can't scribe a scroll?
He obviously doesn't qualify for scribe scroll.
Sadly he still doesn't qualify as having a caster level with which to qualify for the character creation feats (unless he has the caster level otherwise) or even craft the item with.
You don't need to be able to scribe a scroll to write a spell into a spellbook.
Sadly he still doesn't qualify as having a caster level with which to qualify for the character creation feats (unless he has the caster level otherwise) or even craft the item with.
Not the point, we know that. He has at least 5 levels to gain a caster level in before the PClass. Point is you can cast a spell into an item and use the item to imbue the other item but you can't cast it directly? This is silly. A result of "hyperinterpretation" of a small piece of nonspecific text. As it is inherently silly it should probably not be interpreted that way.
You don't need to be able to scribe a scroll to write a spell into a spellbook.
I always thought you did. How else are you doing it? How can you write it into a spellbook, read it off the spellbook, but not write it onto a scroll and read it off the scroll? Again, silly. It's the same process to read a spell off a scroll or a spellbook (same spellcraft check).
You're not going to break anything by going with the stuff that makes sense. It's the nitpicking that breaks things, the stuff you can technically do by the RAW, or the possible interpretation of it. The ability that makes it possible for a Chameleon to cast spells is an Extraordinary Ability, does that mean he can cast in an Antimagic Field? Of course not. That's silly. But you could interpret it that way.
Cast the Chameleon spells directly into the wand like anybody else crafting a wand. No big deal.
Yes, the fact that character options can't be qualified for with chameleon abilities is fairly far-reaching, but chameleon does let you do some things. Maybe someday people will argue that chameleon spellcasting doesn't actually qualify you for casting the spell.
Scrolls and spells in spellbooks are entierly different things. Why does everyone assume that just because they're written on paper that they're the same thing? You can't, for instance, read a spell from a spellbook and have it work like a scroll. If you did then people would be copying 9th level spells to their spellbooks and reading them off as scrolls as that only costs 1.8k while a 9th level scroll costs over 2k more.
Spells in spellbooks are nonmagical and are essentially the spell in its most raw form, to give a modern-day analogy it's a bit like sheet music. Spells on scrolls are little magical packets invoked by reading them, like magic paper with words on it. When you sing the words, the paper plays the music. Scribe scroll is the nessecary item creation feat to make the magic paper, whilst spellcraft is the nessecary skill to write sheet-music.
Scrolls and spells in spellbooks are entierly different things. Why does everyone assume that just because they're written on paper that they're the same thing? You can't, for instance, read a spell from a spellbook and have it work like a scroll. If you did then people would be copying 9th level spells to their spellbooks and reading them off as scrolls as that only costs 1.8k while a 9th level scroll costs over 2k more.
Spells in spellbooks are nonmagical and are essentially the spell in its most raw form, to give a modern-day analogy it's a bit like sheet music. Spells on scrolls are little magical packets invoked by reading them, like magic paper with words on it. When you sing the words, the paper plays the music. Scribe scroll is the nessecary item creation feat to make the magic paper, whilst spellcraft is the nessecary skill to write sheet-music.
Good analogy.
I guess I was thinking about back in the day, when you could rip a page out of your spellbook and use it as a scroll in an emergency.
Assassins use spellbooks and don't have SScroll either.
There was an arguement back in the thread that stated that a chameleon couldn't use chameleon spells to make magic items even if he had another caster level, because making an item has a prerequisite of casting a certain spell and a chameleon can't use his abilities as prerequisites.
That's what I thought was silly. It could be right by RAW, but since you can use items to imbue other items...
Or you could just be sensible about it and not have to go over the rules with a microscope looking for loopholes, in this case, the "other item" loophole.
There was an arguement back in the thread that stated that a chameleon couldn't use chameleon spells to make magic items even if he had another caster level, because making an item has a prerequisite of casting a certain spell and a chameleon can't use his abilities as prerequisites.
Yeah, TBH I probably made that argument too. Although it may be technically true that the abilities can't be used to qualify for requirements, I realised more recently that you need to take that with a pinch of salt as otherwise you can't actually cast the spells as you don't qualify as having them memorised or something. If you can do the same thing via another item (IE: a ring of spell storing) then you can either say that the spell doesn't qualify as being cast to go into the ring (raising the question of wether or not a spell qualifies as being cast to actually do damage) or let it happen.
Was thinkin. Pal 4, Rogue 1, Chameleon(10), then Fist of raz, for smiting and raising my pal spell casting up.
Taking the figher/clerical foci and adding the stat bonus to STR/Con would greatly boost me up.
Well i guess what im asking for is Coulld anyone help me with a build for a Pal, with a chamelon? Lvl 13 for now, but wiht the progression till 20
A good paladin build is high Cha. Most Chameleon builds are high Int. Your smiting will be weak since you don't have any real Paladin levels. There's also the case of you having to be Exalted to take Fist of Raziel, and where are you going to get all the ranks in Bluff and Disguise? (Unless, like me, you change the entry reqs).
A better alternative might be just going for a Cha build, with Divine Might and Extra Turning. Instead of Smites, blow a turn attempt and get Cha TH/Dmg for the rest of the turn. Your chameleon levels give you access to all paladin spells, so that works out, and Cha is a huge save buffer.
You probably want to go Rogue/1, Pal/3-4, and then Ranger, Barbarian or fighter for the extra abilities. Able Learner at level 1, of course, then use skill points to buy off the entry reqs from your other classes...but a low skill point class means you are going to get stuck with Disguise and BLuff, two non-essential skills for a Paladin build, and not much outside them til you start on Chameleon levels.
Really not sure how to address your problem. You could take Arcane Strike for more weapon damage...ten levels of Chameleon gives an awful lot of flexibility. Arcane Strike + Divine Might is probably better then a smite attempt.
==Aelryinth
Well, the problem is not much synergy here.
A good paladin build is high Cha. Most Chameleon builds are high Int. Your smiting will be weak since you don't have any real Paladin levels. There's also the case of you having to be Exalted to take Fist of Raziel, and where are you going to get all the ranks in Bluff and Disguise? (Unless, like me, you change the entry reqs).
A better alternative might be just going for a Cha build, with Divine Might and Extra Turning. Instead of Smites, blow a turn attempt and get Cha TH/Dmg for the rest of the turn. Your chameleon levels give you access to all paladin spells, so that works out, and Cha is a huge save buffer.
You probably want to go Rogue/1, Pal/3-4, and then Ranger, Barbarian or fighter for the extra abilities. Able Learner at level 1, of course, then use skill points to buy off the entry reqs from your other classes...but a low skill point class means you are going to get stuck with Disguise and BLuff, two non-essential skills for a Paladin build, and not much outside them til you start on Chameleon levels.
Really not sure how to address your problem. You could take Arcane Strike for more weapon damage...ten levels of Chameleon gives an awful lot of flexibility. Arcane Strike + Divine Might is probably better then a smite attempt.
==Aelryinth
Well the smiting wont be that bad since my Fist levels will stack with my Pal lvls for smiting. I just need 1 Rogue level to make the Skills requirements since ill have able learner at lvl 1 and max it cross classed till i hit rogue then max it here. WIth that i can hit chameleon at lvl 6, which is the fastest possible anyway. My idea being, takin even 7 lvls of Chameleon, gives me more at lvl 12/13 than taking straight through Fist. I gain +4 to str, plus another ability. An additional +4 hit/dmg. For +6/+6. Somthing i wouldnt get anywhere else. Plus i can cast clerical spells. I dunno... maybe im just going about it the wrong way.. I want the character to be ultra defensive. It was hard to knock me down before. just trying to squeeze every ounce out of it. LOL.
you have just increased ur number of touch spells and ur spell versatility manyfold
if u can cast spells from lists at lower levels than wizard, then u could bull off the whirlwind attack/spiked chain/arcane channel otto's irresistible dance goodness much easier
that is if u can cast it as a 6th level bard spell, instead of a 8th level wzard spell, but even if u cant, then u still get pretty amazing
But this here is my contribution for an extra Chamaleon. A spy, actually
.Human Swashbuckler 5/Fighter 2/Chamaleon 10/Spymaster 3
(the three initial feats are obvious, City Slicker for the pre-requisite skills and Able learner as the feat, the rest is up to the anyone else to tune it up).
Well the smiting wont be that bad since my Fist levels will stack with my Pal lvls for smiting. I just need 1 Rogue level to make the Skills requirements since ill have able learner at lvl 1 and max it cross classed till i hit rogue then max it here. WIth that i can hit chameleon at lvl 6, which is the fastest possible anyway. My idea being, takin even 7 lvls of Chameleon, gives me more at lvl 12/13 than taking straight through Fist. I gain +4 to str, plus another ability. An additional +4 hit/dmg. For +6/+6. Somthing i wouldnt get anywhere else. Plus i can cast clerical spells. I dunno... maybe im just going about it the wrong way.. I want the character to be ultra defensive. It was hard to knock me down before. just trying to squeeze every ounce out of it. LOL.
You need BAB +5 and a level of Rogue doesn't grant any BAB. You'll be able to enter the class at level 7, (pal/5, Rogue/1, then Chameleon) not 6. You can only get in at 6 if you get Disguise and Bluff as class skills for a full BAB class, generally as a feat (City Slicker or Cosmopolitan or something).
==Ael
His goal is not to be UBAR STRONG MAN, just to be able to do anything with some bit of skill.
He will usually throw on a stealth and combat focus, depending on the situation, or an arcane and combat focus or arcane and stealth. His wizard spells will mostly just be Critical Strike/Disguise Self (for equipment change), etc.
When he throws on combat and arcane he'll cast tenser's transformation at high levels, along with a true strike or critical strike.
When he throws on stealth and combat, he'll use his wizard spells to improve said things.
When he goes stealth/arcane, there is the time for nightstalker's transformation and critical strike.
Potentially powerful things:
Rogue 5 / Assassin 1 / Chameleon 10 / Warshaper 4
casting Sniper's Eye, Greater Invisiblity, Divine Power, Arrow Mind....
Maybe even using divine metamagic and persist spell on some of those...
There is Nightstalker's Transformation...but that suffers from the same problems as Mage's/Tensor's Transformation, that you lose the ability to cast spells during the duration.
Yes, another disadvantage is that it has a costly material component. (the 300GP potion)
My favourite "I'm an XYZ now" spell (like Tenser's or Nightstalker's) is Mental Pinnacle. It makes you a psion (or like one) for a while, with a manifester level equal to your caster level (and power points based on your caster level. That means a manifester level of 20 (higher with items) at level 10 chameleon. That lets you reach really high save DCs, as Ego Whip, Mind Thrust, and Id Insinuation all scale their save DCs depending on how many power points you spend.
i.e.
whatever 5 / Chameleon 10 / whatever 5 (maybe more Caster Level bonus?)
level / chameleon caster level / chameleon caster level with PS
1/0
2/0
3/0
4/0
5/0
6/2/6
7/4/8
8/6/10
9/8/12
10/10/14
11/12/16
12/14/18
13/16/20*
14/18/22
15/20/24
16
17
18
19
20
*Caster level 20 at 13th level? Awesome.
Plus, if you take even 1 level in changeling wizard, you gain +1 CL with all illusion and transmutation spells.
===Aelryinth
That's one interpretation. I think their spellcasting is real, not emulated, whenever they have focus in it. Personally it seems to me they can benefit from it whenever they have their focus chosen as a spell casting focus, while their caster level is below their ECL. In a general build though, since their caster level increases so rapidly, this isn't worth it.
Class Features
The chameleon's class features allow you to adopt a variety of roles, from armored warrior to spellcaster to sneaky rogue.
You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement.
Ergo, you can't use the spellcasting you get from Aptitude Focus to qualify for a spellcasting buff. You aren't a spellcaster...you are a PRETEND spellcaster.
===Aelryinth
My favorite theme with a chameleon is straight up monk. Try
Monk 4/ rogue 1 (prereqs)/ chameleon 10/ (monk?) 5
I've just looked at the first few divine spell levels, and I've found:
DIVINE MONK SPELLS
1
Beast claws: gain claws (not necessary with monk)
Claws of the bear: better claws, shorter duration
Blood wind: swift, use natural weapons at range for one round
Babau slime: 1D8 damage when someone hits you unarmed and for grapples.
and of course, beatland ferocity, cures, yadda yadda yadda...
2
Barkskin: Duh
Bite of the wererat: more dex? more con? natural armor? OK!
Body blades: weh ngrappleing, deals extra 1D6+CL.
Balor nimbus: extra 6D6 when grappling
once again, the basics- bull's strength, more cures, etc.
3
Ring of blades, bite of the werewolf, fire wings, all those goodies.
Etc, my guide only actually helps the first two levels, but YOU GET THE IDEA. It's a fun concept to play.
Use night sticks and divine metamagic to presist divine power, swift haste, and whatever else you can find on a divine spell list (stoneskin, invisibility, true seeing, greater magic weapon, etc...)
11 Monk levels gets you greater flurry, wis to AC, stunning fist, awesome saves, good speed, improved evasion, and with a monks belt, 2d8 unarmed damage, and +3 AC.
8 Chameleon levels gets you 5th level divine spells and combat focus.
1 Cleric is just for turn undead, and planning and trickery domains to make getting into chameleon easier.
With haste, divine power, greater flurry, and GMW you end up with 20/20/20/20/15/10/5, with +8 Attack/Damage from GMW and the +6 str bonus, and another +4 from combat focus, +2 from ability boon (str +4), and +1 AB from haste, netting you 35/35/35/35/30/25/20, with 2d8+14 damage BEFORE adding in your str bonus (besides from divine power and ability boon), or anything from items besides a monks belt and some night sticks.
An amulet of natural weapons would be nice, just make it a +1 Holy Whatever amulet and GMW will make it into +5 Holy Whatever.
After persisting all your buffs, you have the option of using rapid refocus to shift to arcane casting if you have a decent int score. But if you plan on doing this often, you might want to consider carmandine monk or kung fu genius to give you mad int synergy.
P.S. After you run out of divine spells per day you should refocus anyways. Also, with delicate interpretation of the wording (which your DM will surely say is wrong, because it probably is), you get an abilty boon for each aptitude focus you are using, so you can have +4 wis and +4 str.
I think a nice Cleric 1/Monk 5/Chameleon 8/Monk 6 would do good.
excellent...but maybe even better:
Cleric 1/ Monk 6/ Shou Disciple 5/ Chameleon 8
get:
Greater Flurry with ANY Simple or Martial weapon
get some nice bonus feats also
also...for this build...avoid Carmondine Monk....you dont have enough feats to justify taking it...better to spend your feats on something else
:D
excellent...but maybe even better:
Cleric 1/ Monk 6/ Shou Disciple 5/ Chameleon 8
get:
Greater Flurry with ANY Simple or Martial weapon
get some nice bonus feats also
also...for this build...avoid Carmondine Monk....you dont have enough feats to justify taking it...better to spend your feats on something else
:D
Shou Disciple does not advance your flurry of blows by RAW, but that's because unapproachable east is considered one of those 3.25 books or something like that, so I guess you could rule that it should, I just steered clear of it because last time I proposed a shou disciple greater flurry build I got my ass flamed.
Use DMM and Ability Enhancer to make strong persistant buffs, then use remaining slots for touch-spells from various list, an if possible persist them :p then wade into combat with combat and stealth focus. :D
If gestalt: Swa3/ElfPar3/Monk1/Dusk3/Chameleon10//Warblade20
This build has crazy int synergy....
Shou Disciple does not advance your flurry of blows by RAW, but that's because unapproachable east is considered one of those 3.25 books or something like that, so I guess you could rule that it should, I just steered clear of it because last time I proposed a shou disciple greater flurry build I got my ass flamed.
Well...yes it does and...no it doesn't
The wording of the abilities (in the sub-box on the page) say nigh the exact same things as the 3.5 rules that state that such-and-such stacks with Monk abilities. However, they just word it a bit differently but, essentially, it is identical.
-=TD=-
Monk 2/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon 10/Nightsong Enforcer 5
Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Monk 2/Chameleon 8/Nightsong Enforcer 6
Both have BAB 16 at 20th level. The latter gets the awesome Opportunist ability, and trapfinding by default, but loses-out on the +6 ability boon.
Here are a few more builds using Chameleon and Monk, this time with Carmendine Monk:
Monk 2/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon 10/Nightsong Enforcer 5
Does the above qualify for Chameleon?
What book is nightsong enforcer in?
complete adventurer
Soul Archer Chameleon
Soulknife 2/Ninja or Monk 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Chameleon 9/Soulbow 6
It has all the advantages of the builds in the first post, except lower BAB (12 vs 14), and it gains:
- Wisdom to damage (in addition to Attack, Armor & bonus spells/spell DC)
- 3 archery bonus feats
- Access to psionic archery feats (Psionic Shot/Fell Shot)
- Weapon cannot be stolen/sundered/etc
- +1 mind arrows with +2 bonus enhancement that can be changed daily. Not too impressive, but consider he can cast GMW himself using Arcane or Divine focus, and he can still be pretty decent archer with a "real" magical bow using Combat focus
It can also be used to make two skills which were previously class skills into class skills for your character's entire career, but that's going to be of little use to the Chameleon who gets that effect on every skill thanks to Able Learner.
Nightsong Enforcer is in Complete Adventurer. I chose it for the following reasons:
- Skills: Gives me Search and Disable Device as class skills, letting me be an uber trap-monkey in stealth focus (+42 before I roll), and 6+Int isn't bad when int is your primary stat.
- Class Abilities: Sneak-Attack, good teamwork abilities, Oppertunist is really nice if you take it that far.
- Full BAB: Helps reach that magical +16
- Easy Requirements: Only requires one feat I might not otherwise take, and that feat is a good one anyway (Improved Initiative)
I am actually playing the first of those two builds (Monk 2/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon 10/Nightsong Enforcer 5) at level 20 right now. I'm presently more effective in melee than the two melee characters in the group, and that's even when I'm in Arcane/Divine or Arcane/Stealth modes, Although it has to be said that they're not particularly optimised.
Monk 2/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon 10/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Warblade 4
By taking Warblade late, I can take higher level maneuvers at the start. Starting-off with one 1st or 2nd level maneuver, one 3rd or 4th level maneuver, and a 5th level maneuver and 5th level stance (assuming they're all taken from the same discipline). at 3rd level in the class you can take a 6th level maneuver, and at 4th level you can swap a lower-level maneuver out for a higher-level one. I was considering the following, which doesn't quite follow that path but I think it's a good set:
- Stances:
Dancing Blade Form
Black Pearl of Doubt (the Diamond Mind maneuver requirement was swapped-out at 4th level)
Another idea is to go:
Monk 2/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon 10/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Warblade 1/Bloodclaw Master 3
That gives you the nice ability to negate TWF penalties with Tiger Claw weapons (unarmed strikes included) plus shifting to give you 2 claws. Still, I'm not sure that going fully Tiger-claw is perfect for this build.
Note that you can use your chameleon floating feat to get an extra maneuver or stance, and you can use Heroics to do the same. You can even use the two to pick-up a maneuver/stance combination like Cloak of Deception and Assasin's Stance.
Has anyone else put thought into Martial Adept Chameleons?
Cleric1/Ftr2/Pal2/Chameleon10/IaijutsuMaster5?
Domains: Time, Trickery
Really nice, with the right buff spells.
Feats would be:
1 Dodge, Able Learner, (Imp. Init)
2 (WF(Katana))
3 Extend, (Mobility)
6 Persistent
9 Elusive Target
12 Quick Draw
15 Free Feat
18 Free Feat
19 (Spring Attack)
Divine Persistent and Divine Might sound nice for those floating feats. Later you could pick Divine Persistent as a normal feat and float extra turning or something.
Starting attributes of 12/14/14/14/12/14 with the right buffs (Bite of the Werebear, Nixie's Grace, Sirine's Grace, Righteous Might, Righteous Fury, Righteous Aura) become something along 38/20/24/20/18/42.
The fifth IaijutsuMaster level makes your 16 Cha bonus quite the boon when Iaijutsu-focusing. 9d6+144 extra damage is nothing to be scoffed at.
Your initiative will rock as well. dex+cha+improved initiative give a whopping +25 to your roll.
AC is cool as well, in the mid-50s thanks to Sirine's grace, int to ac + your "magic-vestmented" t-shirt. Would this stack with bracers of armor, I wonder?
What about
Cleric1/Ftr2/Pal2/Chameleon10/IaijutsuMaster5?
Domains: Time, Trickery
Really nice, with the right buff spells.
Feats would be:
1 Dodge, Able Learner, (Imp. Init)
2 (WF(Katana))
Katanas are technically exotic weapons, and as such your DM may require you to take the EWP(Katana) feat in order to take the WF(Katana) feat. It's a borderline case though, as they can be used two-handed as martial weapons which you are proficient with.
They are called silverbrow humans they lose their extra skill points for among other things having disguise as class skill all the time. No more need to use your second 1st level feat for city slicker
Edit: I'm also trying to work out a 12th-level Chameleon who has Chameleon 7, trapfinding, and the WIS-to-AC/Zen Archery deal, but can still melee well (so decent strength). Rogue1/Monk2/Ranger 2 for the lead-in? What should the feats look like?
What are those "other things" they get?
Feather fall 1/day/5 level and +2 racial on disguise checks
I'll take my skill points, thanks.
But... what the heck is the flavor of those guys?
"Feather fall. And we can disguise ourselves."
...buh?
I'll take my skill points, thanks.
But... what the heck is the flavor of those guys?
"Feather fall. And we can disguise ourselves."
Silver dragon decendants, they also have the dragonblood subtype which I may have failed to mention.
Well the only real relavance was that they free up a feat thats devoted to city slicker in some chameleon builds. I think being able to put your other 1st level feat to good use is worth the skill points
I was contemplating a changeling chameleon as a truly versatile character, but I find a conundrum:
Would I be better off just going straight bard/druid, dipping into sublime chord for true arcane spells, and then riding Fochlucan Lyrist all the way up?
Your thoughts please, as "unbound", the buffs to both arcane and divine casting, and the 1-to-1 BaB of Fochlucan make it TRULY absurdly versatile.
Is chameleon even worth it, given all that?
Hey all,
I was contemplating a changeling chameleon as a truly versatile character, but I find a conundrum:
Would I be better off just going straight bard/druid, dipping into sublime chord for true arcane spells, and then riding Fochlucan Lyrist all the way up?
Your thoughts please, as "unbound", the buffs to both arcane and divine casting, and the 1-to-1 BaB of Fochlucan make it TRULY absurdly versatile.
Is chameleon even worth it, given all that?
I've also pondered this.
I believe that from levels 1 - 15 Chameleon is stronger than Fochlucan Lyrist. A chameleon can take great dips in the first 5 levels, and then over the next 10 levels is about as good a caster as the Fochlucan Lyrist, but with a better caster level and more options.
At level 16-17 I think they are about even.
At levels 18+ I'd say the Fochlucan Lyrist would win out. At this point the accumulation of all the goodies of the class (2 classes of spellcasting, full bab, skill points, etc) start to really mature. It's just plain hard to complete with higher level spells.
See the link in my signature, "Planar touchstone/Chameleon abuse" for a rather cool way to get a Chameleon 9th level spells. In this scenario I think the Chameleon just beats out the Fochlucan Lyrist. (The major negative is that it is very feat-intensive).
Best,
David
So interesting racial varient of humans in dragon magic.
They are called silverbrow humans they lose their extra skill points for among other things having disguise as class skill all the time. No more need to use your second 1st level feat for city slicker
That certainly aids the Artificer 5/Chameleon. Of course, I'd rather keep it more core than that. But a good option if Dragon Magic races are available.
I've also pondered this.
I believe that from levels 1 - 15 Chameleon is stronger than Fochlucan Lyrist. A chameleon can take great dips in the first 5 levels, and then over the next 10 levels is about as good a caster as the Fochlucan Lyrist, but with a better caster level and more options.
At level 16-17 I think they are about even.
At levels 18+ I'd say the Fochlucan Lyrist would win out. At this point the accumulation of all the goodies of the class (2 classes of spellcasting, full bab, skill points, etc) start to really mature. It's just plain hard to complete with higher level spells.
I agree with your assessment. FL is great in a really high level game and not bad in mid level ones ... but it's a pain in the tail during some or all the lower levels depending on your build. When aiming for flexiblity I find myself considering Chameleon a lot more than FL these days. You get the flexibility faster and Chameleon is just cool to boot.
What with Tome of Battle out, how do people feel about Swordsage for a two-level dip for Zen Chameleons instead of monk? Swordsage would actually make a great overall entry, I think. Rogue2/Swordsage 3 (or Rogue 2/Cleric1/Swordsage 2) -> Chameleon 10 -> finish up with more Swordsage for higher-level maneuvers. 6+INT skill points is great, and maneuvers add a whole new type of functionality to the Chameleon.
Swordsage level is really great AFTER taken your levels of Chameleon because at this time, you could take higher level maneuvers.
Exemple : Swordsage 1 taken at character level 17 let you pick level 5 maneuver.
Another good level to take Swordsage 1 is character level 9 for being able to take the great level 3 maneuvers and stances.
Unfortunately, the chameleon's spellcasting in no way qualifies for feats, prestige classes, etc.
Why? What's the justification for this position?
Why? What's the justification for this position?
The fact that it says that in no way can the abilities gained from a chameleon can qualify you for other PrCs. It says it right underneath 'Class Features.' To quote, "You can't use any abilities gained from your...aptitude focus feature...to qualify for a feat, PrC or other option." Since you gain your spellcasting from the aptitude focus feature ability, you're inelligible for the aforementioned.
The fact that it says that in no way can the abilities gained from a chameleon can qualify you for other PrCs. It says it right underneath 'Class Features.' To quote, "You can't use any abilities gained from your...aptitude focus feature...to qualify for a feat, PrC or other option." Since you gain your spellcasting from the aptitude focus feature ability, you're inelligible for the aforementioned.
One can only imagine the terrible things that could be done if this were not explicitly stated!
I was wondering why is Swashbuckler 3, not consider it a decent dip for Chameleon.
Because in general, you're not amping Intelligence as a Chameleon. It also uses up 3 valuable levels in the first 5 levels and doesn't naturally qualify for the PrC.
Arcane channeling works with any touch spell you know (even divine ones?) not just ones known as a duskblade.
Yes even divine ones. Its also often occurs the other way a duskblade 13 going into cham to get harm and other good touch spells
Harliquinn
Is there much use or optimization to making a Chameleon the "Go to Guy" of a group? In other words, for convention games you dont' always know what characters will be at your table. I was thinking of doing a Chameleon character that could fill any role adequately enough but doesn't have to be the best. So an optimized "jack of all trades" character. However, since this would be for RPGA games, the choices and amount of class jumping that can be done is limited. I figured starting with rogue for skills would be a good bet, but I haven't noticed any builds that seem to really optimize the versatility of the class instead of optimizing a single role well.
Harliquinn
As was posted previously, the versatility of the class is made up of the class itself. If you want to cast spells, use the arcane aptitude, if you want to fight, use the martial focus; the issue is just that the class is so fastidiously well balanced that it is hard to 'break', unlike more innocent combinations. If you want to make a go-to guy, though... I think post three of this thread had a link to the synergy monkey concept.
For example: Rogue 2/Marshall 3/Chameleon 10/Master Thrower 5 (15 BaB with by-level, 16 BaB if you use fractional BaB). Thats just one sample. You can play around with it as you like, but adding Marshall to Chameleon allows the character to both adopt a well-needed role and provide a huge bonus to the party. The motivate dexterity feature allows even the clumsy fighter to have a chance at a stealthy approach, and the bonus to initiative allows for serious 'first strike' capability.
Thing is, the Chameleon is well balanced, so you can do a lot of fun and interesting things with it, but nothing earth-shattering (not including already existing cheese, like divine metamagic persistant spell). Its strength is that, if you are going to face a given situation, you can be prepred for it. As long as the Chameleon has time to plan, you can come up with a good strategy based on your focuses. If you are ambushed, you are pigeonholed into what you have.
Probably the most versatile aspect of the Chameleon is its divine aptitude. Being able to cast -any divine spell- in the game... is mildly ridiculous. Your power is only limited by what the DM allows you access to; if all the source books are laid bare, the divine aptitude gives you incredible versatility without having to worry about a spellbook.
the issue is just that the class is so fastidiously well balanced that it is hard to 'break', unlike more innocent combinations.
Chameleon is horribly unbalanced. Breaking it is along the lines of falling off a log. The only thing it is not good at doing is what the writer suggests Chameleons are the best at...i.e. jack of all trades, master of none who uses Charisma a lot.
This is when Charisma is their best dump stat.
They don't need Divine Metamagic to do this, all they need is:
Some form of melee or ranged that they're focused on being good at.
Use one of the spellcasting foci to buff in the morning. GMW +5 at 15th level as an example.
Switch to Combat and the other spellcasting foci.
And go. As an example, if they take Quicken Spell with their floating feat, they can cast Improvisation, Quickened at 15th level that gives them a luck pool of 40 points. That's say +10 to 4 attacks...
Does the RPGA even allow Chameleons in Living Greyhawk?
No, they're restricted and with very good reason...
Switch to Combat and the other spellcasting foci.
And go. As an example, if they take Quicken Spell with their floating feat, they can cast Improvisation, Quickened at 15th level that gives them a luck pool of 40 points. That's say +10 to 4 attacks...
Aye, but then you have to remember that they need to prepare spells as a Wizard for arcane, i.e. when they take the aptitude, they need to have had 8 hours rest beforehand. That means if you've been spending the day in Divine Focus, all of a sudden you need to take 8 hours off the adventure and rest? Thats hard to do. If they want to switch to Divine Focus they also need to prepare spells as a Cleric, and they prepare spells at dawn. Its very, very hard to 'switch' spell casting focuses in the middle of the day.
Chameleons are exactly as they are stated in the fluff section, really good when they have lots of time to prepare, but not as much when they are in an ambush type situation or don't know what they are facing.
Lets take a look at your quoted idea, the Chameleon Gish (as most of the Divine Chameleons are using persistant Divine Power to make up for horrible BaB); assuming you took only full BaB classes before Chameleon, you'd have BaB 17 at 20th level. You can then add a +4 competence bonus to attack rolls, and finally a +6 competence bonus to your strength. However, you don't qualify for Arcane Strike, and even if you did, your spells per day are horrible as a Chameleon. You can select them from any list, but you do not get that many of them, and your list caps at 6th level spells (which means no high DCs; Mental Pinacle is one of the few ways to get high DC effects as a chameleon).
With Cloistered Cleric most of the skill requirements can be met really easily. Something like Cl.Cleric2/Ninja1/Fighter2/SentinelofBharrai3/Chameleon10/Warshaper2 would net some really nice ability score boosts that would be on most of the time. This character would probably have around a 40 str, high wisdom and charisma, and solid Con. All that is lacking is dex, but that's no big deal really. Lately I have been struck by how nasty the SoB can be for melee cleric builds, but using the Chameleon eliminates a lot of the Clericy nonsense. Also, I think there are only 3 feat requirements for the build, which is nice. If you don't like large sized bears, use the black bear, it is not as strong of course, but still not weak by any means. Its amazing that there is no spellcasting requirement for the SoB, yet it gives +1 level consistently.
-AS-
Does the RPGA even allow Chameleons in Living Greyhawk?
This is for a Xen'drik Expeditions game, and yes Changelings are allowed and they can take Chameleon.
Chameleons are exactly as they are stated in the fluff section, really good when they have lots of time to prepare, but not as much when they are in an ambush type situation or don't know what they are facing.
This is the kind of character I'm trying to build. One that, given some warning can fill a role within a party and do it at an acceptable level. I'd like to be good at a few things (likely the skill monkey part), but be able to buff, fight, heal or cast (The only aptitude I can't see ever taking is the Wild one, just seems bleh). I imagine if you were the arcane focus the night before, got your rest, memmed spells, casted long term buffs, then switched the cleric in the morning (If that's your time) meditated for an hour then had cleric spells available, then you'd have a nice mix of spells for the day.
then switched the cleric in the morning (If that's your time)
If you read the description of Divine Focus, it requires that you prepare your clerical spells at dawn.
This is for a Xen'drik Expeditions game, and yes Changelings are allowed and they can take Chameleon.
The Able Learner feat is not allowed for Living Greyhawk, which is why you can't be a Chameleon in Living Greyhawk; are you sure its allowed for Xen'drik Expeditions?
The Able Learner feat is not allowed for Living Greyhawk, which is why you can't be a Chameleon in Living Greyhawk; are you sure its allowed for Xen'drik Expeditions?
Yes, I'm sure.
If you read the description of Divine Focus, it requires that you prepare your clerical spells at dawn.
That's cool. It should still work as you can prepare your cleric spells after resting a night with arcane focus. Memorize/Cast any arcane spells you want then switch focus to Cleric and meditate an hour to get those spells you want to use for the day.
Whats the DC for a level 9 Spell for a normal caster? 19+ Stat bonus.
Whats the DC for a level 6 spell for a Chameleon? 16 +Stat bonus +3 Ability boon = the same thing. Actually, their lower level spells are MORE effective then a primary caster.
Where they lose it on is total number of spells/day...until you count the fact they get two classes worth of spells. That puts them nicely back into the race. Being able to grab two Aptitudes can also grant them better saves then a base class will have. Able Learner also means a more diverse and useful set of skills.
Most of the Chameleon builds I lean towards actually favor Int builds, and Swashbuckler dovetails nicely. Sure you can break it with DMM abuse...but that's not a problem in a RPGA game. The Ability Boon means you can have average scores suddenly 'improve' to that of a 'normal' character class, you can still focus on doing one thing well, and dips into other classes combined with your floating feat mean you can do a lot of things decently, and do them even while you are performing another function.
Example: With a level in cleric, and making your floating feat Divine HEaling, you could become an excellent after-combat 'recovery medic', even if you don't have a clerical focus at the moment.
the big problem with playing a Chameleon is keeping track of all your options. The ability to steal spells from all lists is incredibly strong...and nabbing the spells is one of the ways that makes up for limited spell levels. You'll have to keep a private list of such spells on hand, because you are snatching them from all over the place.
I advocate a high Int, average Other stats build for a Chameleon. You can't go wrong with a lot of skill points to accentuate Able Learner, bonus arcane spells, and Swashbuckler levels. Grab a monk's belt if you don't want to wear armor, stack your boon on Wisdom or get Kung Fu Genius, and play the roles you've selected to the hilt.
===Aelryinth
If they want to switch to Divine Focus they also need to prepare spells as a Cleric, and they prepare spells at dawn. Its very, very hard to 'switch' spell casting focuses in the middle of the day.
Right - they don't want to switch foci during the middle of the day, ever...they want to switch right after they finish casting all their spells of one focus.
If a Chameleon goes to sleep 9.5 hours before dawn, rest 8 hours, memorize spells for 1 hour, cast them in the next 15 minutes, switch foci for 10 minutes, then he can do the Divine Focus while still having Arcane buff spells up from an hour and a half ago. This is easy to do.
Or go to sleep an hour or so after sunrise to sleep for 8 hours. Not like the state of the sun actually matters inside your average dungeon. A little more difficult, but not impossibly so.
At 11th character level, they should have a caster level of 12 - extended 1 hour/level spells will last all day at that point and with the floating feat, Extend Spell isn't a problem.
Chameleons are exactly as they are stated in the fluff section, really good when they have lots of time to prepare, but not as much when they are in an ambush type situation or don't know what they are facing.
Exactly how does having extra prep time or knowing what they might be facing help a Chameleon any more than any other gish? You've already stated that changing spellcasting foci in the middle of the day isn't a good idea. The Stealth/Wild foci are lousy. There's no reason to change foci except when you wake up in the morning or you want to put yourself at risk for no reason(by using the Stealth/Wild foci for the +4 Competence bonuses, which are the most common bonuses)
That fluff section was the worst written fluff section ever, completely disconnected from the mechanics of the class. Horrid. Chameleons are made out to be dilettantes who aren't great at anything, but good at a lot of things, when in actuality, they're overwhelmingly powerful warrior types once they hit 12th level who happen to also cast spells and do some roguish things on top of that.
It isn't difficult to consistently get unbelievably high bonuses to hit and damage. GMW +3-+5, Heroism, Quickened Improvisation(+40 to hit that can be used up to +10 at a time at 15th level), etc...
Right - they don't want to switch foci during the middle of the day, ever...they want to switch right after they finish casting all their spells of one focus.
If a Chameleon goes to sleep 9.5 hours before dawn, rest 8 hours, memorize spells for 1 hour, cast them in the next 15 minutes, switch foci for 10 minutes, then he can do the Divine Focus while still having Arcane buff spells up from an hour and a half ago. This is easy to do.
Or go to sleep an hour or so after sunrise to sleep for 8 hours. Not like the state of the sun actually matters inside your average dungeon. A little more difficult, but not impossibly so.
At 11th character level, they should have a caster level of 12 - extended 1 hour/level spells will last all day at that point and with the floating feat, Extend Spell isn't a problem.
Exactly how does having extra prep time or knowing what they might be facing help a Chameleon any more than any other gish? You've already stated that changing spellcasting foci in the middle of the day isn't a good idea. The Stealth/Wild foci are lousy. There's no reason to change foci except when you wake up in the morning or you want to put yourself at risk for no reason(by using the Stealth/Wild foci for the +4 Competence bonuses, which are the most common bonuses)
That fluff section was the worst written fluff section ever, completely disconnected from the mechanics of the class. Horrid. Chameleons are made out to be dilettantes who aren't great at anything, but good at a lot of things, when in actuality, they're overwhelmingly powerful warrior types once they hit 12th level who happen to also cast spells and do some roguish things on top of that.
It isn't difficult to consistently get unbelievably high bonuses to hit and damage. GMW +3-+5, Heroism, Quickened Improvisation(+40 to hit that can be used up to +10 at a time at 15th level), etc...
You can only effectively sleep 8 hours in a given day. while Divine Focus must be taken care of in the morning, you can certainly stop and do an Arcane Focus later in the day...there's no penalty for doing so, except time. Actually, given the excellent clerical buff spells, it's probably the better way to go. You can even take Bard spells as your arcanes to use for healing, if need be...and there are a lot of spontaneous, combat usable arcane spells.
Swapping in the middle of the day is even better at higher levels, because you can have two foci. Grab both spellcasting classes early in the day, swap them out when they are depleted.
===Aelryinth
Swapping in the middle of the day is even better at higher levels, because you can have two foci. Grab both spellcasting classes early in the day, swap them out when they are depleted.
From levels 5 through 9, the Chameleon can only adopt two focii per day, so that's that's not going to work that well. Even at level 10, it's just three focii per day, so she's only going to be able to swap out one focus.
Day 1 - 10 PM: Adopt Arcane, Divine Focii. Rest for 8 hours.
Day 2 - 6 AM (Dawn): Pray for spells, study spellbook.
Day 2 - between 7 AM and 10 PM: Blow through spells. (If Chameleon 10, swap one focus for combat focus.)
Day 2 - 10 PM: Focii from day 1 expire.
Alternatively,
Day 1 - 10 PM: Rest for 8 hours.
Day 2 - 6 AM (Dawn): Adopt Arcane, Divine Focii. Pray for spells, study spellbook.
Day 2 - between 7 AM and 10 PM: Blow through spells. (If Chameleon 10, swap one focus for combat focus.)
Day 3 - 6 AM: Focii from day 1 expire.
For maximum castings, the best approach may be to try to re-use the Arcane focus as much as possible (it can be renewed via 8 hours of rest; rest != sleep):
Day 0 - 1 PM: Not doing anything productive today. Adopt Arcane, Divine Focii (1st, 2nd).
Day 0 - 10 PM: Rest for 8 hours.
Day 1 - 6 AM (Dawn): Pray for spells, study spellbook.
Day 1 - between 7 AM and 1 PM: Blow through spells, then rest.
Day 1 - 1 PM: Focii from day 0 expire. Adopt Arcane focus (1st). Rest the remainder of eight hours.
Day 1 - between 3 PM and 9 PM: Blow through Arcane spells.
etc.
This of course depends on how your DM interprets days and the Chameleon's Arcane Focus ability. It also depends on if the Chameleon's entire party is willing to base its schedule on hers.
Duskblade's spell list (PHBII) for the Chameleon makes some great additions. Polar Ray and Disintigrate as 5th levels spells are a great example.
Also, anyone have anything with newer books to add to it?
Any suggestions for getting Bluff and Disguise to 8 by 5th level, assuming they aren't class skills?
The City Slicker feat will get you Disguise as a class skill, and I'm pretty sure one of the apprentice/mentor feats in DMG2 can get you Bluff.
Any suggestions for getting Bluff and Disguise to 8 by 5th level, assuming they aren't class skills?
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=749560
Best,
David
P.S. Also, what Surreal said.
Can Shifters be Chameleons? I didn't think they could.
D'oh. Thought one Eberron Race, typed another. Thanks for the catch. Fixed now.
Thanks. It's quite a shame that City Slicker doesn't give Bluff.
There's a feat in a sidebar on P81 in unearthed arcana called Skill Knowledge. It can be used to add any one skill as a class skill... Might be useful if you're wanting to go a Changeling/Full-BAB 4/Warshaper 1 entry route or similar, IE: one that gives Disguise but not Bluff.
There's a feat in a sidebar on P81 in unearthed arcana called Skill Knowledge. It can be used to add any one skill as a class skill... Might be useful if you're wanting to go a Changeling/Full-BAB 4/Warshaper 1 entry route or similar, IE: one that gives Disguise but not Bluff.
I'd rather take Apprentice (Criminal) [DMG2], because it comes with all kinds of other benefits (including the option of changing it to ~Leadership after 5th level). Of course, some other profession with both skills would be ideal...
The reson I'd like to get both skills in a concise fashion is for quick entry from Artificer 5 (e.g. the MacGyver/'Batman' Chameleon). In this case, you could always change from a Criminal master to a Craftsman master at 5th level, and get some relevant benefit (10% materials price reduction).
WOW!!!
HASTE+DISPEL MAGIC AT LEVEL 1!
GREATER DISPEL AT LEVEL 3!
And its just the beginning...
For the chameleon who can choose from any arcane list, this is pure optimization juice!!!
Have fun!
EDIT: Actually, all Trapsmith spells are at least one level lower than normal, and most are two.
1st level
Arcane Sight
Cats Grace
Clairaudience
DISPEL MAGIC
Foxes Cunning
Gaseous Form
HASTE
knock
Protection From Energy
2nd lvl
Arcane Eye
Dimmension Door
Lesser Globe of Invulnerability
OTILUKES Resilient Sphere
Stone Skin
Stone Shape
3rd level:
Bigbys Interposing Hand
Break enchantment
FABRICATE
GREATER DISPEL MAGIC
Wall of Stone
:D
trapsmith spells:
(...)
Freaking amazing!
Cross-posted to: The New Dragonfire Adept Handbook!
In that case, the silver dragon totem gives you Bluff and Disguise as class skills.
...;) :D
If not i'll give it a go:
Factotum3/Duskblade2/Chameleon10/Abjurant Champion5
For Race: Illumian with either Uurkrau or Aeshkrau sigils. Due to factotum in the build i would probably go with Uurkrau to reduce MAD (which you suffer from as a chameleon).
Benefits: Fairly good HP's, Int to all str and dex skills, Only requires Able Learner to meet pre-reqs, extra spells from Duskblade, Ab. Champ bonuses to chameleon abjuration spells, +16 BAB.
I would put all ab. champ CL progressions into duskblade; at 5th lvl of AC duskblade CL will equal BAB.
The only thing that really sucks is the lack of Skill points. Not sure if this is great but i kinda thought is was cool. :D
-AS-
Wow...
trapsmith spells:
1st level
Arcane Sight
Cats Grace
Clairaudience
DISPEL MAGIC
Foxes Cunning
Gaseous Form
HASTE
knock
Protection From Energy
2nd lvl
Arcane Eye
Dimmension Door
Lesser Globe of Invulnerability
OTILUKES Resilient Sphere
Stone Skin
Stone Shape
3rd level:
Bigbys Interposing Hand
Break enchantment
FABRICATE
GREATER DISPEL MAGIC
Wall of Stone
:D
Holy cow that is BAH-ROKEN! At first glance.
However, Chameleons cast from spellbooks like wizards do. Assuming that they, like wizards, can copy spells from scrolls, you're going to have to find several trapsmiths who took scribe scroll and copy off them to get all those spells. It's like tracking down the one runescarred berserker who not only took scribe scroll but is willing to share his knowledge of how to cast cure moderate wounds as a first-level spell. If you're limited to using already-written spellbooks, well... you're stuck stealing wizard and wu-jen books, I guess. As for artificers, though... wow. I wonder if classes like the chameleon and artificer were intended to only copy/imitate base classes and not prestige classes? Probably? If I ran a game and someone tried to pull this that's what I'd rule.
Also, since it's possible to craft magic items with someone else supplying the spell, you do not need to track down a Trapsmith or Runescarred Berserker with Scribe Scroll--if you find one, you can take Scribe Scroll with your floating feat, and scribe a scroll with them casting the spell for you.
The other stuff works though. Just not artificer scrolls.
Note this is an ECL 22 since the Doppleganger has 9hd and a +6 la (It is possible that it is a +5 LA)
This allows you to have 4 aptitude focuses at the same time, plus two feats you can change, 4 ability boons, etc. The greater doppleganger has some limitations in the assumed form, since it doesn't gain the consumed person's skills or feats (Except those from classes) and can't use deity granted powers (No divine metamagic) though if the Greater doppleganger itself had a level in Cleric that would work.
Though it requires epic levels, I think this can create the ultimate Chameleon build
Well as far as theoretical ultimate chameleon builds you could somehow UMD (or UPD rather) a commissioned power stone of True Mind Switch between character levels 7th to 10th and take over a Mind Flayer... then go into the Illithid Savant PRC and take a Greater Doppleganger's Consume Identity.:D
Anyone think that a chameleon should have a class feature that protects them from the penalties from uneven levels? The players handbook states these penalties are from maintaining different skills at different levels.
IIRC... that is refering to Multi-class penalties.... which do not apply to Prestige Classes , the "Chameleon" Class is a Prestige Class, and is not subject to those penalties
:D
Scottbert, the Chameleon has a number of options. Not only can he take Extra Spell with his Chameleon floating feat for each particular spell and scribe it down into his book himself, but he can also go see an Artificer or a Warlock and get them to scribe the spell for him.
Also, since it's possible to craft magic items with someone else supplying the spell, you do not need to track down a Trapsmith or Runescarred Berserker with Scribe Scroll--if you find one, you can take Scribe Scroll with your floating feat, and scribe a scroll with them casting the spell for you.
Logically, if you employ a feat to do this and untrain it, then you lose the benefit of the feat. You also have to consider that youa re making Chameleon versions of spells, not actual spells.
So, when you untrain Extra Spell (trapsmith Haste) to learn Extra Spell (trapsmith greater dispel), you'll lose the benefits of the first spell, meaning that your Haste spell is just a bunch of gobbledy-gook.
This would even apply to using it in magical items, since your Chameleon version of trapsmith Haste wouldn't be comprehensible, even to you. You might be able to use a wand of it with a UMD check, however. Actually, I think you're forced to, since chameleons don't have a spell list.
===Aelryinth
Logically, if you employ a feat to do this and untrain it, then you lose the benefit of the feat. You also have to consider that youa re making Chameleon versions of spells, not actual spells.
So, when you untrain Extra Spell (trapsmith Haste) to learn Extra Spell (trapsmith greater dispel), you'll lose the benefits of the first spell, meaning that your Haste spell is just a bunch of gobbledy-gook.
This would even apply to using it in magical items, since your Chameleon version of trapsmith Haste wouldn't be comprehensible, even to you. You might be able to use a wand of it with a UMD check, however. Actually, I think you're forced to, since chameleons don't have a spell list.
===Aelryinth
You are not retraining feats; you are using the Chamaleon's floating feat.
Logically, if you employ a feat to do this and untrain it, then you lose the benefit of the feat. You also have to consider that youa re making Chameleon versions of spells, not actual spells.
So, when you untrain Extra Spell (trapsmith Haste) to learn Extra Spell (trapsmith greater dispel), you'll lose the benefits of the first spell, meaning that your Haste spell is just a bunch of gobbledy-gook.
This would even apply to using it in magical items, since your Chameleon version of trapsmith Haste wouldn't be comprehensible, even to you. You might be able to use a wand of it with a UMD check, however. Actually, I think you're forced to, since chameleons don't have a spell list.
===Aelryinth
Er... no.
If it were just Extra Spell, sure, you'd stop being able to cast it. But you write the spell down in your spellbook. You can cast any arcane spell in your spellbook, as a Chameleon. Even by the biggest stretch, you'd just need Scribe Scroll (which any number of CHameleon entries can qualify you for); you make a scroll while you have the Extra Spell, and then you learn the spell from the scroll.
But you don't need to do that. Copying the Extra Spell into your spellbook isn't any different from copying a spell out of someone else's spellbook into your spellbook (a price of 50*SL gp) is. Once it's in your book, you're good to go.
If you lose the feat, you likewise lose ALL the benefits of that feat...which would include this spell that you miraculously understood without doing any research, spellcraft checks, or whatever.
This spell is now gobbledygook. Easy come, easy go. Interpreting it as a way to get 'free' spells is just munchkinny abuse of the system.
The benefit of the feat is that you can get a spell easy that you want, whenever you want. It doesn't mean you get to KEEP it.
to put it another way, the spell only made sense when you scribed it because it was a spell you learned via the feat. without that special understanding, you are going to open up your spellbook and find a bunch of squiggles that don't mean a thing to you. With the feat, the writings make perfect sense. Without it, they are just nonsense not even a spellcraft check is going to help you or anyone else with.
====Aelryinth
You understand the spell that you are writing down BECAUSE you have taken your floating feat to do so.
If you lose the feat, you likewise lose ALL the benefits of that feat...which would include this spell that you miraculously understood without doing any research, spellcraft checks, or whatever.
This spell is now gobbledygook. Easy come, easy go. Interpreting it as a way to get 'free' spells is just munchkinny abuse of the system.
The benefit of the feat is that you can get a spell easy that you want, whenever you want. It doesn't mean you get to KEEP it.
to put it another way, the spell only made sense when you scribed it because it was a spell you learned via the feat. without that special understanding, you are going to open up your spellbook and find a bunch of squiggles that don't mean a thing to you. With the feat, the writings make perfect sense. Without it, they are just nonsense not even a spellcraft check is going to help you or anyone else with.
====Aelryinth
Where are you getting any of this? It's not supported by the rules in any way. Why would there be a difference between the spell copied into your spellbook from when you had it in your mind with Extra Spell, and the spell copied into your spellbook from a Trapsmith-made scroll or a Trapsmith's spellbook? I mean, technically you can just find a Trapsmith and get him to make you a scroll or show you his book (copying a spell from another's book costs 50 gp * spell level; getting him to cast the spell for your making of the scroll--which is definitely possible, you provide the GP/XP, but someone else can cast the spell for uses of crafting feats--costs 10 gp * spell level * caster level plus the handful it takes to make the scroll. With a divination and a teleport, tracking down a Trapsmith shouldn't even be hard. All this does is save you the trouble of DOING so. If your DM wouldn't let you find a Trapsmith, he's not going to let you pluck the spell off his list anyway. So each day you could be getting one of those spells anyway--it's just that this way you don't have to go anywhere, and you're saving a couple of hundred GP.
How is using the Floating Feat to get a different Extra Spell every day to get the spells you want more munchkinny or abusive than having access to every divine spell because of how clerics/druids/etc work, or, you know, just playing a druid?
I don't see where you're coming from. What you say is neither logical nor supported by the rules. "Understanding" a written spell just takes the ability to cast it, and a Chameleon can cast any spell in his spellbook--there is no difference in how it got there. It doesn't even do anything but save you some boring hunt-and-bargain use of downtime, and a little cash, so I'm not sure why you have such a big problem with it. It's not abusive or munchkinny, certainly not too much for an actual game...
...much less for the Character Optimization boards.
IIRC... that is refering to Multi-class penalties.... which do not apply to Prestige Classes , the "Chameleon" Class is a Prestige Class, and is not subject to those penalties
:D
Well I meant if you do something along the lines of (for whatever reason)
rogue 9/fighter1/chameleon10 Wouldn't it seem that a chameleon should ignore the penalties?
Where are you getting any of this? It's not supported by the rules in any way. Why would there be a difference between the spell copied into your spellbook from when you had it in your mind with Extra Spell, and the spell copied into your spellbook from a Trapsmith-made scroll or a Trapsmith's spellbook? I mean, technically you can just find a Trapsmith and get him to make you a scroll or show you his book (copying a spell from another's book costs 50 gp * spell level; getting him to cast the spell for your making of the scroll--which is definitely possible, you provide the GP/XP, but someone else can cast the spell for uses of crafting feats--costs 10 gp * spell level * caster level plus the handful it takes to make the scroll. With a divination and a teleport, tracking down a Trapsmith shouldn't even be hard. All this does is save you the trouble of DOING so. If your DM wouldn't let you find a Trapsmith, he's not going to let you pluck the spell off his list anyway. So each day you could be getting one of those spells anyway--it's just that this way you don't have to go anywhere, and you're saving a couple of hundred GP.
How is using the Floating Feat to get a different Extra Spell every day to get the spells you want more munchkinny or abusive than having access to every divine spell because of how clerics/druids/etc work, or, you know, just playing a druid?
I don't see where you're coming from. What you say is neither logical nor supported by the rules. "Understanding" a written spell just takes the ability to cast it, and a Chameleon can cast any spell in his spellbook--there is no difference in how it got there. It doesn't even do anything but save you some boring hunt-and-bargain use of downtime, and a little cash, so I'm not sure why you have such a big problem with it. It's not abusive or munchkinny, certainly not too much for an actual game...
...much less for the Character Optimization boards.
How did you learn this spell? Did you acquire it by level?
No, Chameleons can't learn spells this way.
Did you buy it and make a spellcraft check to understand it? And then transcribe it successfully?
No.
You used your floating feat to avoid all that and acquire you a spell.
And now, you no longer have the feat. You also no longer have the benefits of that feat, i.e. a comprehensible spell. So this spell you 'floated' into existence on Chameleon chutzpah just 'floated' away again. You've got gobbledygook. chicken scratchings. You've got something that makes no sense because you used a feat to bring comprehension of it into existence, and now you don't comprehend what that feat did anymore.
Compare the floating feat to the Chameleon's ability to emulate spellcasting. If he doesn't have his Arcane Focus up, he doesn't have a working spellbook...he can't read a single thing in it. Chicken scratchings.
Apply the same logic to the Floating Feat. If you don't have the feat, you don't get the rewards of it, i.e. the comprehensible spell. It's just not there, just like if you aren't emulating a caster. Bring the feat back, and suddenly the scratchings make sense again.
I.e. if you want a spell permanently, you're going to have to go out and acquire it like anyone else. You are going to have to make spellcraft checks and all the fun stuff to 'really' learn it, instead of bypassing all of it.
Using it any other way is munchkinny. It's like saying "I knew Power Attack once, now I always know it, because I hit somebody with it once!"
Can you understand the logic behind what I'm saying, or do you just not like the fact that it closes a gaping loophole if read any other way?
===Aelryinth
Well I meant if you do something along the lines of (for whatever reason)
rogue 9/fighter1/chameleon10 Wouldn't it seem that a chameleon should ignore the penalties?
What penalty? A human ignores his highest level class anyways.
===Aelryinth
How did you learn this spell? Did you acquire it by level?
No, Chameleons can't learn spells this way.
Did you buy it and make a spellcraft check to understand it? And then transcribe it successfully?
No.
You used your floating feat to avoid all that and acquire you a spell.
And now, you no longer have the feat. You also no longer have the benefits of that feat, i.e. a comprehensible spell. So this spell you 'floated' into existence on Chameleon chutzpah just 'floated' away again. You've got gobbledygook. chicken scratchings. You've got something that makes no sense because you used a feat to bring comprehension of it into existence, and now you don't comprehend what that feat did anymore.
I.e. if you want a spell permanently, you're going to have to go out and acquire it like anyone else.
Using it any other way is munchkinny. It's like saying "I knew Power Attack once, now I always know it, because I hit somebody with it once!"
Can you understand the logic behind what I'm saying, or do you just not like the fact that it closes a gaping loophole if read any other way?
===Aelryinth
Err...no...because a Chameleon's and a Wizard's spellbook are completely interchangeable. What it boils down to is simple...the feat gets changed, and then the next time he wants the spell for the day, he makes his spellcraft check, just as if he'd learned it from a 'found' spellbook...just like a lot of Chameleon's books are, in the first place...
And a Wizard could transcribe it from him, too.
Can you understand the logic behind what I'm saying, or do you just not like the fact that it closes a gaping loophole if read any other way?
I understand what you're trying to do here(and appreciate it, since I really don't approve of this use of the feat), but what if the chameleon scribed a scroll of a spell he learned using that feat & then changed the feat later? Would the scroll turn to nothingness? What if he crafted another item(like a sword?) using a spell from this feat as a prereq? What if he paid for services with the afore mentioned scroll? Would the person he gave it to no longer be able to use the scroll? What if he took a crafting feat as the floating feat & crafted something with it?
edit-> given how simple my question is, I apologize if someone already covered this. I only lightly browsed the last two or three posts of this thread.
edit#2-> The problem, of course, is that extra spell is a feat that bestows material wealth of sorts(in the form of a spell in a spellbook, written down), rather than an ability(as is normal for feats). As a DM, I'd be more willing to say the feat is flawed & ban it from the chameleon taking it as the bonus feat than try to come up with some impossible way to mitigate its interaction with this prestige class.
If a Chameleon travels with a Wizard who has a spellbook he can just use his friends book every day and has no cost whatsoever himself for his spells. If his buddy has the extra spell feat and used it to scribe something interesting into his book then the Chameleon can use that spell too even though the Chameleon might never have taken the extra spell feat himself. Alternately the Chameleon and the Wizard could work together to use Floating Feat Extra Spell to add to the book they are sharing, but they would have to scribe a scroll first and eat the XP cost associated with it.
Chameleons don't have the ability to create spellbooks themselves unless they took a level of Wizard or something. The ability to create a spellbook is a class ability. They can borrow or steal other spellbooks but usually can't create their own. Without that Wizard level the Extra Spell feat will let them learn the spell the day they used their floating feat on it ... but will not carry over. However if they have that Wizard level then they are golden and the trick works.
If a Chameleon travels with a Wizard who has a spellbook he can just use his friends book every day and has no cost whatsoever himself for his spells. If his buddy has the extra spell feat and used it to scribe something interesting into his book then the Chameleon can use that spell too even though the Chameleon might never have taken the extra spell feat himself. Alternately the Chameleon and the Wizard could work together to use Floating Feat Extra Spell to add to the book they are sharing, but they would have to scribe a scroll first and eat the XP cost associated with it.
How do you define the 'creation of a spellbook'? They are capable of learning new spells and scribing them into a book...the rest is just craftsmanship...the only real difference is a Wiz1 gets his free...
How did you learn this spell? Did you acquire it by level?
No, Chameleons can't learn spells this way.
Did you buy it and make a spellcraft check to understand it? And then transcribe it successfully?
No.
You used your floating feat to avoid all that and acquire you a spell.
And now, you no longer have the feat. You also no longer have the benefits of that feat, i.e. a comprehensible spell. So this spell you 'floated' into existence on Chameleon chutzpah just 'floated' away again. You've got gobbledygook. chicken scratchings. You've got something that makes no sense because you used a feat to bring comprehension of it into existence, and now you don't comprehend what that feat did anymore.
Compare the floating feat to the Chameleon's ability to emulate spellcasting. If he doesn't have his Arcane Focus up, he doesn't have a working spellbook...he can't read a single thing in it. Chicken scratchings.
Apply the same logic to the Floating Feat. If you don't have the feat, you don't get the rewards of it, i.e. the comprehensible spell. It's just not there, just like if you aren't emulating a caster. Bring the feat back, and suddenly the scratchings make sense again.
I.e. if you want a spell permanently, you're going to have to go out and acquire it like anyone else. You are going to have to make spellcraft checks and all the fun stuff to 'really' learn it, instead of bypassing all of it.
Using it any other way is munchkinny. It's like saying "I knew Power Attack once, now I always know it, because I hit somebody with it once!"
Can you understand the logic behind what I'm saying, or do you just not like the fact that it closes a gaping loophole if read any other way?
===Aelryinth
Ael, there isn't any logic behind what you're saying. I understand why you might want to think there is--you don't like what you see as a "loophole"--but what you're saying is completely unrelated to how Extra Spell works and how the Chameleon works. It is based in absolutely nothing but your desire to "close the loophole".
Extra Spell does not make a spell "comprehensible". That's determined by which spells you can cast. All wizard spells are comprehensible for a wizard. Cleric spells aren't. Or rather, they could identify the spell in a book or scroll with Spellcraft, but couldn't cast it.
Extra Spell lets you "learn a spell". What this means is that it is now one of your Spells Known--you are capable of casting it. This is independent of whether you can use a scroll of it &etc., which is determined solely by your class spell list.
If a sorcerer takes Extra Spell, has Scribe Scroll, and creates a scroll of that Extra Spell, the result is a scroll of the spell (let's say, Fireball).
If the sorcerer then dies and is raised from the dead, losing the level he took Extra Spell at, the scroll of Fireball he made is no more incomprehensible to him than any other scroll of Fireball. He can use it just the same--he'll need to make a CL check if he deleveled from 6 to 5, but he's capable of using the scroll just like he could use any other scroll of Fireball.
If instead of a sorcerer, he were a wizard, who'd deleveled from 6th (when he took Extra Spell) to 5th, he could then use that scroll to scribe the spell into his spellbook--just like he could with any other scroll of Fireball, because there is absolutely no difference between various CL X Wiz/Sor scrolls of Fireball. He could also cast the Fireball, without a caster level check, just like he could any other scroll of fireball--whether he made it himself or not.
If he scribed the Fireball into his book after learning it with Extra Spell, he can also relearn it from his spellbook. You may be able to make the argument that a Spellcraft check is needed, like when you learn a spell from a foreign spellbook--but that's the only issue. "Scroll/Spellbook with Fireball in it" = "wizard can learn the Fireball". It doesn't matter that he doesn't know Fireball anymore: characters learning spells from scrolls or spellbooks never know them anyway--or they wouldn't need to learn them!
The Chameleon doesn't have a class spell list--instead, he can learn spells from any class spell list by scribing them into his spellbook.
If the Chameleon takes Extra Spell(trapsmith Haste), the trapsmith version of Haste is added to his spells known.
If he then scribes it into his spellbook or makes a scroll of it--something one can do with a spell one knows (with the Scribe Scroll feat for the scroll)--this scribed scroll or spellbook entry is mechanically completely identical to a scroll or spellbook entry made in any other way.
The next day, the Chameleon takes Extra Spell(Mirror Image). Trapsmith-Haste is no longer one of his spells known.
This has absolutely no effect on his ability to let him learn a spell out of his spellbook, or scribe a spell into his spellbook from a scroll. I suppose you could make an argument that he might have to re-copy the spell into his book, since you need to copy a spell into your book to learn it, but that's about it.
What you're saying isn't logical, or sensible, it's the desire to close something you see as a loophole. I don't think I can demonstrate any more clearly than I did above that what you said has absolutely no relation to how Extra Spell, learning spells as a character with a spellbook, or Chameleons work.
What's more, this is not an abuse or munchkinry. It's not gamebreaking--all it does is save you a little GP and a brief teleport trip.
Nor is the fact that Extra Spell is so much more useful for Chameleons somehow twinky or abusive. Power Attack is vastly more useful for a fighter than for a Shugenja. The Bite of the Werebear is vastly more useful for a gish than for a wizard. Zen Archery is far better for a Monk/Soulknife/Soulbow than it is for a Factotum. Almost anything in D&D is going to be better for some characters than for others, and it won't always be in foreseen ways--it CAN'T always be in foreseen ways, because of how large D&D is.
This is a clever use of the Floating Feat, just like using it to acquire Craft feats for a few days to craft the item you want. It's a time/effort-saver. That's all.
Spellbook: A wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own.
SRD on Spellbooks & Magical Writings
Magical Writings To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in her own way. Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until she takes time to study and decipher it.
To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers a magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.
Once a character deciphers a particular magical writing, she does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering a magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll.
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)
…
Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook.
To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers a magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.
Once a character deciphers a particular magical writing, she does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering a magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll.
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)
…
Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook.
A Chameleon buys a blank one (or a Blessed Book, more likely) and starts writing spells into it. The wizard just gets to start play with a spellbook that already contains spells.
Chameleons get the ability to “prepare and cast spells” but they do not gain the “Spellbook” class feature of Wizards. They use the Magical Writings rules on using spellbooks that were created by real Wizards. Chameleons “often use stolen or borrowed spellbooks” because they can’t make them ... and if they don’t borrow or steal one then they can’t benefit much from Arcane Focus.
The word 'often' does not imply in any way 'must always'. Chameleons can buy a blank spellbook and record spells in it that they find through scrolls or other spellbooks. The reason they often use borrowed or stolen is because they don't get to add any spells to their books for free.
A Prime Underdark Guilde prepares and casts spells just as a Wizard does. She keeps her spells in a spellbook and must study them each morning. She can add to her spellbook by copying spells from wizards or from other Prime Underdark Guides.
Notice how they specifically spell out that the PUG gets the ability to add spells to their spellbook. The implication is that by default only Wizards can do this since the Magical Writings section of the PHB/SRD clearly spell use the word “Wizard” instead of “Arcane Caster who uses prepared spells” or some other sort of generic language.
The Archivest’s Prayerbook is another fun example. The language is again similar to that for Wizard’s spellbooks and it clearly spells out that Archivest has the ability to add spells to their book.
Now, let’s go back to the Chameleon. They get to “use” a spellbook but they don’t gain a spellbook of their own as a class feature unlike every other prep caster out there nor is there any explicit provision for them to add spells to a spellbook in their class writeup.
You get two choices. You can either gloss over the language and assume that “use” means they get to make their own spellbook even though it’s clearly different than other wording in similar classes ... or you can take the language more literally and understand it as being able to “use” as spellbook in no way implies that they get to create one but allow them to prepare spells from other folks spellbooks or from scrolls.
And the ability to prepare from scrolls and such would ultimately be why the Chameleon *might* use Arcane Focus even if they don’t have a spellbook of any sort handy. That’s what the “stolen or borrowed” language is referring to ... not that they might have made their own spellbook but that they might be using scrolls or some other esoteric way to prepare their spells.
Well I meant if you do something along the lines of (for whatever reason)
rogue 9/fighter1/chameleon10 Wouldn't it seem that a chameleon should ignore the penalties?
yes it does
as for the idea about the spells and spell book...just look closely at the text:
Arcane Focus: You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class. You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook (chameleons often use stolen or borrowed spellbooks; see page 178 of the Player's Handbook for details). Your spells per day are noted on Table 5-2: The Chameleon. You gain bonus spells for a high Intelligence score, just as a wizard does. When Table 5-2 indicates that you get 0 spells per day of a given spell level, you gain only the bonus spells you would be entitled to based on your Intelligence score for that spell level. Your caster level is equal to twice your class level.
you gain this ability EACH time you choose the Arcane Focus.... no matter what feat you choose for the floating feat
:D
Notice how they specifically spell out that the PUG gets the ability to add spells to their spellbook. The implication is that by default only Wizards can do this since the Magical Writings section of the PHB/SRD clearly spell use the word “Wizard” instead of “Arcane Caster who uses prepared spells” or some other sort of generic language.
At the time of the writing of the PHB, Wizards were the only arcane spellcaster which used a spellbook, so it's no wonder they used wizard as a shortcut. They do the same for sorcerer and bards under spontaneous casting when they were the only ones.
Another example of this type of explicit limitations in the PHB are for things like Pearl of Power (This seemingly normal pearl of average size and luster is a potent aid to all spellcasters who prepare spells (clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and wizards). Now, I doubt you'll find a DB who won't allow Spirit Shaman, Archivists, and other prepared spell casters to benefit from the Pearl even if it does not include their class. The classes in parenthesis are listed explicitly, since there is no "such as" or "etc." in there.
Also, the entry on Spellcraft for preparing from a borrowed spellbook specifically mentions Wizard only (Prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook (wizard only). However, we know that other classes that weren't around at the writing of the PHB can do that.
While this doesn't directly support the "Chameleons can write in spellbooks" it does show that just because the PHB uses the word Wizard that other future classes cannot be included.
The biggest line in support of that argument is in the Chameleon description itself:
Arcane Focus: You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class. You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook
The Archivist and other examples that specifically talk about adding spells must do so because they do not reference the wizard directly. The archivist uses a "prayerbook" and I'm not familiar with the other example. In the Arcane Focus, it explicitly states the the Chameleon uses a spellbook as a wizard does. They don't get an automatic spellbook filled with spells (The wizard class feature), but they do use spellbooks just like a wizard (stated in the quote above). This would include all the sections on using spellbooks (not the automatic spells a wizard gets by leveling though), including writing to them.
It is slightly ambiguous, I will admit that, and it could use some clarification. However, I believe the intent is that Chameleons use spellbooks just like a wizard.
Harliquinn
1) They don't stack with the levels of Chameleon for the purposes of advancing casting.
2) They increase the Chameleons spellcasting in the normally accepted fashion.
3) They increase the Chameleons spellcasting in the same manner as listed in their ability descriptions (meanging they increase their caster level by 2/actual level).
Any one want to take a stab at an explaination for me?
How do PrC's that increase existing spellcasting mesh with the Chameleon? I can see three possibilties.
1) They don't stack with the levels of Chameleon for the purposes of advancing casting.
2) They increase the Chameleons spellcasting in the normally accepted fashion.
3) They increase the Chameleons spellcasting in the same manner as listed in their ability descriptions (meanging they increase their caster level by 2/actual level).
Any one want to take a stab at an explaination for me?
Option 1. Chameleon doesn't qualify as a "spellcasting class"
Option 1. Chameleon doesn't qualify as a "spellcasting class"
Would you mind explaining why? I don't quite understand how a class that has spells per day, the ability to cast those spells, and a caster level doesn't qualify as a "spellcasting class".
Granted, they need to have that (or those depending on the specific PrC) specific Aptitude Focus active, but wouldn't that still allow them to qualify part of the time?
Right--but you can qualify for a casting-advancing prestige class with your non-Chameleon levels, and then apply the caster level increases to Chameleon, since it *does* cast spells.
^What he said.
=========
As for the whole spellbook schmeel, how's a Chameleon going to make a scroll when he'll never qualify for the feat with Chameleon levels?
I find it very interesting that it's not mentioned that he can add to his spellbook. This effectively means that he can't acquire new spells...someone else has to actually have a spellbook with those spells in them. So Extra Spell becomes useful as an access to a spell, but it's not something he can actually communicate away.
Inneresting! because he doesn't actually have a caster level, except by something outside his class, the whole point of adding to his Chameleon spell book is moot. He'd only be able to add spells to his wizard spell book IF he's a wizard already, and then just note the spell from the floating feat is a 'chameleon' spell and effect, and can't be used with feats that require actual caster levels.
At least, that's how I'd rule it. heh.
===Aelryinth
Right--but you can qualify for a casting-advancing prestige class with your non-Chameleon levels, and then apply the caster level increases to Chameleon, since it *does* cast spells.
I don't believe the Chameleon is considered a spellcasting class, since only under special conditions can it cast spells. The wording on most Prestige Classes is:
When a new thaumaturgist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class.
If the Chameleon is not a spellcasting class, then those levels cannot be applied to it.
It isn't cut and dry, but as a DM, I would personally not allow it.
Harliquinn
"Spellcasting class" isn't actually defined in the rules so we have to base it on our interpretations so this really won't make it anywhere. My definition is roughly based on classes that are able to cast spells as a class feature.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how a class that has spells per day, spellcasting mechanics based on class abilities, a caster level, and a spell list of essentially "any" isn't a "spellcasting class".
Sure, on a day to day basis they can opt to not cast spells, but a wizard could choose to not memorize new spells which is the same concept in my mind.
correct. Chameleons don't have spellcasting ability. They have the ability to emulate it, i.e. they can choose to have it, but it's not intrinsic to them.
=========
As for the whole spellbook schmeel, how's a Chameleon going to make a scroll when he'll never qualify for the feat with Chameleon levels?
When they emulate it, they do have spellcasting ability, and there's no reason they can't advance that--they just can't meet prestige class *prerequisites* with their casting.
As for how a Chameleon is going to make a scroll... by having a single level in, say, Cleric, which qualifies him for Scribe Scroll.
Practiced Spellcaster will allow him to use his floating feat to get Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor, after that.
I find it very interesting that it's not mentioned that he can add to his spellbook. This effectively means that he can't acquire new spells...someone else has to actually have a spellbook with those spells in them. So Extra Spell becomes useful as an access to a spell, but it's not something he can actually communicate away.
...
Once again, you're being almost intentionally obtuse. Chameleons prepare and cast spell just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook. The use of a spellbook covers scribing spells into the spellbook.
The Chameleon's fine. You can make some powerful specialized builds with it, but you can make those with well-nigh everything else, too. If you want to nerf it in your games, nerf it--but don't pretend that you're just following the rules. There's nothing wrong with houseruling; there *is* something wrong with intentionally obfuscating the RAW instead of houseruling.
When they emulate it, they do have spellcasting ability, and there's no reason they can't advance that--they just can't meet prestige class *prerequisites* with their casting.
As for how a Chameleon is going to make a scroll... by having a single level in, say, Cleric, which qualifies him for Scribe Scroll.
Practiced Spellcaster will allow him to use his floating feat to get Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor, after that.
...
Once again, you're being almost intentionally obtuse. Chameleons prepare and cast spell just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook. The use of a spellbook covers scribing spells into the spellbook.
The Chameleon's fine. You can make some powerful specialized builds with it, but you can make those with well-nigh everything else, too. If you want to nerf it in your games, nerf it--but don't pretend that you're just following the rules. There's nothing wrong with houseruling; there *is* something wrong with intentionally obfuscating the RAW instead of houseruling.
When they emulate spellcasting ability, they are emulating...they don't have it. It doesn't satisfy the reqs for feats and the like, and they STILL don't have a spell list (because they aren't spellcasters!)
If he's a cleric, then he could grab extra spells off the cleric list and prepare them for his cleric levels to use...but he's not going to be casting them well with a limit of 1. he's still going to have to pay the cost for scribing the spell, scribe it, then use his spellcraft checks to get it into his clerical prayers book, and then when he loses the chameleon feat he looks at it and goes "WTH was I thinking? This isn't a spell!"
So, he may get a one shot scroll use out of it, but that's it. Just because he CAN be an adept divine spellcaster doesn't mean he actually IS. he's just faking it, remember?
===Aelryinth
Ya preparing and casting as a Chameleon can't get you any real spells to sling until using Aptitude Focus but you could still qualify for Reserve Feats and Improved Spell Capacity.
When they emulate spellcasting ability, they are emulating...they don't have it. It doesn't satisfy the reqs for feats and the like, and they STILL don't have a spell list (because they aren't spellcasters!)
They get it. Just like they have that +2 AB/damage bonus when they're emulating fighters. It doesn't satisfy the prerequisites because the Chameleon class explicitly states this--otherwise, it *would*. It can be progressed; when the Arcane Focus isn't up, the Chameleon won't be getting anything out of that arcane spell progression.
If he's a cleric, then he could grab extra spells off the cleric list and prepare them for his cleric levels to use...but he's not going to be casting them well with a limit of 1. he's still going to have to pay the cost for scribing the spell, scribe it, then use his spellcraft checks to get it into his clerical prayers book, and then when he loses the chameleon feat he looks at it and goes "WTH was I thinking? This isn't a spell!"
Oh my god. Are you doing this on purpose, just to aggravate? Did you not read the post where I broke down how Extra Spell, learning spells, and Chameleons work for you?
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SPELL BECOMING INCOMRPEHENSIBLE. YOU MADE THAT UP. All spells you could cast are comprehensible; the rest are identifiable with a Spellcraft check. If a spell is on a scroll, that. Scroll. Is. Identical. To. Any. Other. Scroll. Of. That. Spell. At. That. Caster. Level. You have not been able to even come up with a single reason why the Chameleon wouldn't be able to copy it into his spellbook.
Nor have you been able to come up with a single reason why a spell copied into the Chameleon's spellbook from memory would suddenly become incomprehensible, as there is no distinction between it and another such spell copied into the spellbook.
The Extra Spell "trick" works. It's not illegal, and it's not abusive. Continuing to insist that it is won't convince anyone.
So, he may get a one shot scroll use out of it, but that's it. Just because he CAN be an adept divine spellcaster doesn't mean he actually IS. he's just faking it, remember?
===Aelryinth
First of all, he can prepare any DIVINE spell, period, without scrolls or prayerbooks. He just prays for them, like a cleric.
Second of all, all it takes is a caster level of 1 to qualify for Scribe Scroll. Cleric 1, Wizard 1, etc. all get that. Once a character has Scribe Scroll, he can use it to scribe a scroll of any spell he can cast. He can even get someone else to cast the spell into the scroll he's making.
And there will be no difference between that scroll and any other scroll of the same spell at the same caster level.
One of the reasons I brought up my Warlock...he can create a wand, for example, say a wand of magic missile, and then any wizard, sorcerer, warmage, etc, can use it. Same if he made a scroll. The wizard could copy from his spellbook. Same applies to him, in reverse. Even without the arcane focus, he can use the wand like any other magic item...in his case, UMD.
It's the same as if he bought it. The spell is strictly interchangeable. Chameleons are spellcasters...some of the time.
Would any of you change your mind if Custserv said they weren't? I'm quite confidant that custserv will say that Chameleon casting cannot be advanced by any prc yet printed. I suspect that those arguing for PrCs advancing chameleon casting are all in the camp that pays no credence to custserv responses so I won't ask unless someone thinks it might actually solve this in anyone's mind.
To those claiming that Chameleon is a spellcasting class:
Would any of you change your mind if Custserv said they weren't? I'm quite confidant that custserv will say that Chameleon casting cannot be advanced by any prc yet printed. I suspect that those arguing for PrCs advancing chameleon casting are all in the camp that pays no credence to custserv responses so I won't ask unless someone thinks it might actually solve this in anyone's mind.
What you're talking about there is a whole different issue...and one I have no issue with. It states clearly that Chameleon focuses can't be used to qualify for other classes...whether or not others can advance Chameleon...well, that I dunno. I can see an argument against it easily enough.
But...they DO cast spells. They are *not* spell-like abilities.
What you're talking about
I reread what I posted and think it's clear in context ... perhaps you should re-read the recent posts to this thread starting with hyfigh's post at 2:53. This is not the same issue as the spellbook issue. Chameleons can cast spells if they choose to, but they are not a "spellcasting class". I know the term is never explicitly defined in the rules, but if anyone doubts that custserv will agree I'll ask and post the results.
To those claiming that Chameleon is a spellcasting class:
Would any of you change your mind if Custserv said they weren't? I'm quite confidant that custserv will say that Chameleon casting cannot be advanced by any prc yet printed. I suspect that those arguing for PrCs advancing chameleon casting are all in the camp that pays no credence to custserv responses so I won't ask unless someone thinks it might actually solve this in anyone's mind.
I've always had good responses from Cust Serv but for the Chameleon class and the unique-ness of it, I don't see any response by them to be taken with much weight by most people reading the CO Boards. If the same question was asked 100 times and was 80% of the time answered one way, then I'd go with it personally.
Does a 1st-level wizard/4th-level rogue with Practiced
Spellcaster qualify for a prestige class that requires
“Spellcaster level 5th”?
No. This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your
caster level (a value which can be modified by many feats,
class features, and even temporary effects) but to your actual
level in a spellcasting class. (If it helps, you can think of this
requirement as “Spellcaster, 5th level.”)
The same applies for characters whose caster level is less
than their class level. A 5th-level paladin meets the “Spellcaster
level 5th) requirement, even though her actual caster level is
only 2nd.
This suggests that the Paladin is a spellcasting class from level 1, even when it has no spells available to cast. Which would seem to support Chameleons (though different from a Paladin) also being a spellcasting class.
*edit: the responses from Cust Serv mentioned have not pertained to the Chameleon class
I reread what I posted and think it's clear in context ... perhaps you should re-read the recent posts to this thread starting with hyfigh's post at 2:53. This is not the same issue as the spellbook issue. Chameleons can cast spells if they choose to, but they are not a "spellcasting class". I know the term is never explicitly defined in the rules, but if anyone doubts that custserv will agree I'll ask and post the results.
Be my guest...ask away. They cast spells, and that makes them, by definition, spellcasters. If a barn is red, it's a red barn. All other things are incidental.
To clarify, the Chameleon PrC is a spellcasting class when it can cast spells, which is when its aptitude foci are running. The distinction doesn't matter all that much, considering that it's still a spellcasting class at any moment in character building where things matter.
Be my guest...ask away. They cast spells, and that makes them, by definition, spellcasters. If a barn is red, it's a red barn. All other things are incidental.
"That barn's not red, it's burgundy!" ;)
To clarify, the Chameleon PrC is a spellcasting class when it can cast spells, which is when its aptitude foci are running. The distinction doesn't matter all that much, considering that it's still a spellcasting class at any moment in character building where things matter.
I see no reason to create work for the custserv people if everyone involved will just ignore their answer, which is what seems to be the case here.
I see no reason to create work for the custserv people if everyone involved will just ignore their answer, which is what seems to be the case here.
CustServ answers are most commonly ignored if they fly in the face of common sense, obvious balance, or the rules. The foremost is being invoked here in favor of calling the chameleon a spellcasting class, considering that it can, well, cast spells if you choose the proper foci.
CustServ answers are most commonly ignored if they fly in the face of common sense, obvious balance, or the rules. The foremost is being invoked here in favor of calling the chameleon a spellcasting class, considering that it can, well, cast spells if you choose the proper foci.
Eggs-zactly.
Now, if they care to say that because of the difference in the way the class goes about things, you can't use their levels to build upon, I have no problem with that. There are plenty of DIFFERENT reds out there...and they reflect light differently.
Burgundy, however, is still a shade of red.
I see no reason to create work for the custserv people if everyone involved will just ignore their answer, which is what seems to be the case here.
Hehe, work... Good one.
On a more serious note. Sure, I'll accept Custservs response if they can give a good explaination on their position. 9 out of 10 of their responses are disregarded because they just don't make sense or they don't have an explaination for what they're trying to get at.
If anyone can come up with a reason that a class that meets all the criteria for being a spellcasting class is not to be considered such, speak up or let this arguement drop.
As for the "emulation" bit. It's bupkiss. UMD provides emulation, thus a rogue using UMD is not a spellcasting class. The Chameleon has spells per day, can cast those spells, has a caster level, and does functionally have a spell list. All of this without the use of any items, but only with a class feature. What is it about wizard, clerics, druids, sorcerors that allows them to cast spells as a spellcasting class? Gee, I dunno, is it a class feature? Oh hey, look at that...
If anyone can come up with a reason that a class that meets all the criteria for being a spellcasting class is not to be considered such, speak up or let this arguement drop.
The "exception" part of the Chameleon reads:
You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.
The reading of prestige classes that advance spellcasting is:
When a new level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class.
This is an option of the prestige class and requires that you add it to a spellcasting class you belonged to before. The spellcasting of the chameleon comes from the Aptitude Focus only. Since this is an 'other option' that requires a feature of Aptitude Focus for its qualification, it cannot qualify (as per the above).
Also by this reasoning, if you had a level of cleric before becoming a Chameleon (thus had Turn Undead attempts) and had the Sun Domain, you could still not use your Mimic Class Feature of Turn Undead to gain the benefit of the Greater Turning of the Sun Domain.
Harliquinn
Even though the Chameleon may be a spellcasting class they are not allowed to advance that spell casting through means other than advancing the PrC itself.
email
If a Chameleon somehow qualifies for one of the many prestige classes that grants "+1 Level of existing spellcasting class" can that be applied to the chameleon class?
What exactly is a "spellcasting class" in this context?
Can a chameleon use his second level class feature feat to take "extra spell" feat to gain an arcane spell, then pay to inscribe the extra spell into his/her spellbook thus retaining access to the spell after changing the feat to something else?
Thank you for any insight you can provide.
********************
Page Number: 111
Book Name: Races Of Destiny
What exactly is a "spellcasting class" in this context?
Can a chameleon use his second level class feature feat to take "extra spell" feat to gain an arcane spell, then pay to inscribe the extra spell into his/her spellbook thus retaining access to the spell after changing the feat to something else?
Thank you for any insight you can provide.
********************
Page Number: 111
Book Name: Races Of Destiny
The otherway to advance chameleon spellcasting is with bloodlines (from Unearthed Arcana). That is less grey as it does not depend on the class that you are advancing. Granted it only advances the caster level portion, but that can be cool too.
Ok I did email custserv with this messageIf a Chameleon somehow qualifies for one of the many prestige classes that grants "+1 Level of existing spellcasting class" can that be applied to the chameleon class?
What exactly is a "spellcasting class" in this context?
Can a chameleon use his second level class feature feat to take "extra spell" feat to gain an arcane spell, then pay to inscribe the extra spell into his/her spellbook thus retaining access to the spell after changing the feat to something else?
Thank you for any insight you can provide.
********************
Page Number: 111
Book Name: Races Of Destiny
Subject
Chameleon Spellcasting
Discussion Thread
Response (Support Agent) 08/02/2007 01:04 PM
James,
Thank you for writing. Yes, if you chose a prestige class that grants a +1 existing level of spellcasting class, it can be applied the Chameleon prestige class. Spellcasting class is any class that is able to cast spells. They would gain an increase in number of spells per day, spells known and caster level for the class chosen. As long as you meet the prerequisites, pay the cost and your DM allows it, I don't see why not.
Good Gaming!
Paul
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST
It's not the most authoratative sounding answer ever, but I was pretty posative that they would have said that having an ability to use arcane focus or divine focus wouldn't make you a spell casting class. It's also interesting that they just ignored the part about using extra spell to add to the spellbook.
Yes, interesting response...."I don't see why not" doesn't seem very authoritative, but at least it is a response. I wonder if it would help or if they would use the information of a provided link to see what discussion has been already engaged in on these boards to see reasons both pro and con as a way of more definitively answering the questions...
Now the question is when you advance chameleon casting with another prestige class, do they still get 2xlevel for caster level or just 2xCham level + 1 per other prc?
It's not the most authoratative sounding answer ever, but I was pretty posative that they would have said that having an ability to use arcane focus or divine focus wouldn't make you a spell casting class. It's also interesting that they just ignored the part about using extra spell to add to the spellbook.
Remember, you need to tell them what the potential issue is. You didn't do that in your question. They're not reading this thread...and you can see it in his answer - as long as you meet the prerequisites. The Chameleon doesn't meet the prerequisites and you must pick the level of a spellcasting class to advance. Which Chameleon is not.
I have a question for you though (there had to be didn't there :P)
How viable is cleric (not of the cloistered variety) as an entry class? DM is also not allowing me to worship an ideal, so Trickery defaults to my first domain choice.
That's the only question
Just if it's viable or not.Oh yea, and the party play at sensible power levels, no one takes the **** so I won;t be lagging behind with choose cleric as entry.
For chameleons, as chameleon advances nothing, and your character will be nothing without advancement, you want to take classes that advance chameleon.
The first level of cleric gives a fair bot of advancement. 2 domains can give 2 feats (or feat-like-, sometimes even superior-than-feat-abilities), you also get Turn undead, which can serve as a great battery for many other abilities using divine feats.
Chameleons are generally quite skill-based, and they requite a feat that gives them advantages for having a wide skill base. Thus: Lots of levels of cleric will definitely limit your skills too as they have only 2+Int skills.
A single level of cleric is generally a good trade. Otherwise I'd recommend other skilful classes, or classes that have abilities that might mesh better with your character's other abilities. Rogue obviously fits quite well, and if you're going to be using your trickery to catch opponents with their guards down then you want that sneak-attack to capitolise on it.
As this is D&D, where combat is fairly likely, you might also consider levels in classes that advance your fighting abilities. Fighter is good, implying generic combat experience, but still falls in the skills trap. Ranger is nice with skills and combat, but there's little point in taking it much beyond 2nd level ability-wise. Endurance can be good, however, particularly if you want to go Horizon-walker.
First up Mommy(that feels wrong saying that...) great post and guide. Being able to see all the different entry methods available has really helped with planning my Shadowlord..
No problem. Try MwaO
I think the key thing to realize is that Chameleon is a unbelievably strong fighting class that happens to cast spells and be a passable skill monkey all at the same time. It isn't a great caster or skill monkey.
So a level of Cleric with the use of Divine Metamagic Persistent or Quicken aren't bad. A lot of levels of Cleric isn't as useful, because you're going to get Cleric spells from Chameleon. But you'll never be a great caster, so I'd get some levels in something else - especially if you're going Shadowlord.
I have a couple of questions about my upcoming factotum/chameleon...
The book doesn't say one way or another, but when you re-focus to a caster, can you memorize spells right then and there, or so I have to take my caster foci in the morning and switch when I run out of spells?
Don't overlook the fact that you will actually have a non-chameleon caster level, thus qualifying you got metamagic feats, and perhaps some item creation feats (scribe comes to mind).
I have a couple of questions about my upcoming factotum/chameleon...
The book doesn't say one way or another, but when you re-focus to a caster, can you memorize spells right then and there, or so I have to take my caster foci in the morning and switch when I run out of spells?
"If you change to the arcane focus or divine focus ability, you must still obey the normal rules for preparing spells (including any rest required)."
Do I have to switch to the focus (and attribute), sleep, then memorize, or can I sleep, switch to the focus (and attribute), then memorize? How does that interact with the attribute focus?
Hmm, I have no idea why I typed SHadowlord. Maybe someone is trying to tell me something :P
I had disregarded the skill monkey aspect of the character, which is something I shouldn't have done.
I'm gonna ask the GM about Cloistered Cleric, as he is usually open to suggestion.
How does the Mimic Turning interact with turning btw? Does it clarify if it stacks or overlaps at all?
I like the suggestion of Ranger as the other class. It's prolly gonna be between it and Fighter (edging towards fighter though, I feel I can use the extra feats better than the ranger abilities).
Thanks again MwAo (that's much better, I don;t shudder when typing it :D) and everyone else that posted.
Trickery is very interesting and becomes useful at about 10th level where you can use it to check dangerous places for traps and similar.
Knowledge is another very interesting choice, giving very respectable bonuses to hit practically anything... With 5 or so skill points, you've got a guaranteed +1 to hit and damage against any non-humanoid. For humanoids, it costs a skill point per region. You could quite easily get +2 or more, and can buff yourself to get up-to +5 for important combats using Divine Insight (2nd level divine spell in CV/SpC)
You can even take these feats using your floating feat slot, although the Knowledge Devotion one is probably good enough to genuinely take. That way, you can use the floating feat slot for Open Minded letting you know the humanoids of the region you're in (or to just know more about the other creatures you're fighting).
Edit: I just got an image of this guy stuck in my head. Imagine a guy in silvery fullplate, wielding the biggest sword that money can buy and jumping off a rooftop with his at-will feather fall, then laying the smack on anyone who dares to step in his way. With the right metabreath feats you'd have an interesting and flexible tank/controller.
1 Duskblade 1 City Slicker, Able Learner
2 Duskblade 2 Combat Casting
3 Duskblade 3 (gains Arcane Channel)
4 Swashbuckler 1 Weapon Finesse
5 Swashbuckler 2
6 Chamleon 1
7-11 Abjurant Champion 1-5
12-20 Chamleon 2-20
From Abjurant Champion
Spellcasting: At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming an abjurant champion, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known. [apply spellcasting to Chameleon CL]
Martial Arcanist (Ex): At 5th level, you master the art of combining your militant and mystical training. From this point on, your caster level in a chosen arcane spellcasting class is equal to your base attack bonus (unless it would otherwise be higher). For example, a 7th-level fighter/1st-level wizard/5th-level abjurant champion has a base attack bonus of +12 (and thus a caster level of 12th). You can apply this benefit to only one arcane class to which you have added spellcasting levels by your advancement as an abjurant champion.
From Races of Destiny
Arcane Focus: Blah Blah Blah, Your caster level is equal to twice your class level.
My question, is a Chameleon a arcane spellcaster for the purposes of martial arcanist class feature? And if so, by level 20. He would have a base attack bonus +30 while in arcane aptitude mode but have a standard base attack bonus +17 when not in arcane aptitude mode?
"You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option."
Let's look at some tricks mentioned for Chameleons in this thread:
Extra Spell
----------
This feat requires that you can cast spells of a certain level and if you qualify, you can write/learn a new spell of one level lower. Chameleon Arcane Focus (an aptitude focus) and spells gained as result does not qualify you for this feat as per quote. Even if you choose to build like Rouge1/Fig2/Wiz2/Chameleon10, only your wizard levels qualify for this feat and thus you can learn a new level 0 spell!
Item Making
-----------
You can certainly use your floating feat for craft items feats but you must still qualify for that feat with levels outside the chameleon class. A Rouge1/Fighter2/Cleric2/Chameleon10 with Practiced spellcaster feat has a cleric CL 6 and can only qualify for craft items feats for up to level 6. Even if he is Chameleon 10 (CL 20), he can't make Rods (Prereq CL 9) or staffs (Prereq CL 12). That is per quote above.
Using magical devices
---------------------
You need UMD to use arcane/divine items if you dont have levels outside chameleon class that qualifies you for this usage. Rouge1/Fig2/Cleirc1/Wiz1/Chameleon10 works fine. Otherwise you need to polish your UMD skill.
Arcane Spellbooks
-----------------
Chameleons can't maintain a spellbook. Their Arcane focus (and spells/SL/CL gained as result) does not qualify them for writing spells into spellbooks as per quote. That's why the description of Arcane Focus states that Chameleons use borrowed or stolen spellbooks. Better polish your spellcraft skill and have a wizard budy that writes spells into your blessed spellbook. Look also at the reason I mentioned why you can't use Extra spells to add spells to this spellbook.
Tips: Look at Heroics spell (SC - Allows you to learn a new feat for duration 10min/CL) to boost your fighting skills!
Divine spells
------------
These work fine. All divine spells in all books you can find is your hunting ground. My favorites are Tortoise shell (SC - Gives +9 NA at CL 20) and Owls Insight (SC - gives +10 Wis at CL 20) together with Zen Archery and a Monks Belt. Just max your wisdom and enjoy high AC and high archery AB, all with one effort.
Chameleon is a nice class and as long as you remeber it's limitations, it is balanced. I am certainly having fun with it as a Zen Archer :P
//Bouncer
Chameleon class states and I quote:
"You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option."
Let's look at some tricks mentioned for Chameleons in this thread:
Extra Spell
----------
This feat requires that you can cast spells of a certain level and if you qualify, you can write/learn a new spell of one level lower. Chameleon Arcane Focus (an aptitude focus) and spells gained as result does not qualify you for this feat as per quote. Even if you choose to build like Rouge1/Fig2/Wiz2/Chameleon10, only your wizard levels qualify for this feat and thus you can learn a new level 0 spell!
Arcane Spellbooks
-----------------
Chameleons can't maintain a spellbook. Their Arcane focus (and spells/SL/CL gained as result) does not qualify them for writing spells into spellbooks as per quote. That's why the description of Arcane Focus states that Chameleons use borrowed or stolen spellbooks. Better polish your spellcraft skill and have a wizard budy that writes spells into your blessed spellbook. Look also at the reason I mentioned why you can't use Extra spells to add spells to this spellbook.
Right, Extra Spell requires a caster level - which you don't qualify for via Chameleon. That's certainly a bummer. However, a Wizard dipping chameleon DOES qualify, hence he can learn a new spell every day.
I can't, however, find any restrictions as to writing a spellbook in the PHB spellbook description section. All I see is that you need to make Spellcraft checks. It doesn't even say anywhere that you have to be a wizard, basically anyone could write a Spellbook if he had some source material. A Chameleon doesn't have a class-list, so reading from a scroll as a source will require a UMD check or a level in Sor/Wiz, for instance. Reading from another spellbook however just seems to require a spellcraft check. Am I missing something here? Please point out where you are taking this restriction from.
Right, Extra Spell requires a caster level - which you don't qualify for via Chameleon. That's certainly a bummer. However, a Wizard dipping chameleon DOES qualify, hence he can learn a new spell every day.
"You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option."
If you dip in wizard levels as the example I mentioned; Rouge1/Fig2/Wiz2/Chameleon10; you qualify for the feat as wizard for spells one level lower than the level you can cast. Your spell levels gained by arcane aptitude focus are invisible to this feat as per quote. Sure you can learn a new spell, but your Spell level as seen by this feat is your wizard spell level 1; thus you can learn level 0 spells if you take this feat.
That is also the reason why you can't qualify for PrC classes with spellcasting prereq through Chameleon class. Your chameleon spellcasting is invisble for feats, prestige classes and other options.
I can't, however, find any restrictions as to writing a spellbook in the PHB spellbook description section. All I see is that you need to make Spellcraft checks. It doesn't even say anywhere that you have to be a wizard, basically anyone could write a Spellbook if he had some source material. A Chameleon doesn't have a class-list, so reading from a scroll as a source will require a UMD check or a level in Sor/Wiz, for instance. Reading from another spellbook however just seems to require a spellcraft check. Am I missing something here? Please point out where you are taking this restriction from.
Only wizards can maintain a spellbook as described in page 57 of PHB. Archivist from Heroes of Horrors is another base class that can maintain a prayerbook much similar to a spellbook and as described in page 178 of PHB. Certainly a Monk can not maintain a spellbook even if he has Spellcraft as class skill because writing spellbooks is not a class ability for Monk. You are absolutely right that anyone can read from a spellbook with a spellcraft check, but not everyone can convert this reading to magical energies. Writing into a spellbook requires wizard levels which a Chameleon does not have even if he dips into wizard class. The maximum level of spells you can write into a spellbook for our example rouge1/fig2/wiz2/Chameleon10 is level 1 spells.
There is also one more thing I would like to mention. Everyone agrees that taking a feat like Open Minded which gives you 5 skill points to distribute among your skills is only temporary skill increase. Next day when you take another feat using your floating feat, all these skill points have disappeared. I don't understand why this analogy is not taken to Extra Spell. Even if you manage to write a new spell into your spellbook using Extra Spell, the next day you would not be able to read it because you dont have the Extra Spell feat as your floating feat. PHBII has an option for retraining which means among other things that you can retrain a feat to another feat every time you go up a level. You can see what the effect would be if you retrained your Extra Spell each level to gain a new spell. This is very similar to Chameleon attempt to explore Extra Spell feat.
There is still a lot of fun you can have with your Chameleon even with these restrictions
//Bouncer
As to writing spellbooks: Wu Jen use spellbooks just as wizards, and there is no further lengthy description as to how they do it. IMHO basically any class that casts from a spellbook can write one, that's how I see it. However, Chameleons don't automatically learn spells, nor do they get a spellbook when they become a chameleon. They have to buy a new unused spellbook and then write in it from scratch, copying spells from elsewhere, or use a borrowed or stolen spellbook.
I don't even find level restrictions on writing spells into the spellbook. From looking through both the wizard entry and the spellbook section, it seems if you can make the spellcraft check you could write (i.e. copy) spells you are not even able to cast, yet. This seems weird, but unless I'm really missing something I don't find restrictions.
"You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement".
I dont know how you interpret the italic part of the quote but If your DM allows you to use Extra Spell in a basic build such as wiz18/cham2 in the way you describe it, your DM is your best buddy. You can make a fortune by selling spellbooks to the market. Just add a new spell to a spellbook everyday and sell it when it is full. Why create items and loose XP when you can create spellbooks with no xp or cost?
I interpret the italic part as the understanding of the spell disappears when you change your floating feat. The writing in the spellbook does not vanish of course, it is IN the book. But you do not understand it's functionality anymore as it was a researched spell. I am sure you disagree with me but it is fine. Your DM is the ultimate judge and if he allows it, that's fine too.
I have not seen any restriction on the level of a spell you can write into a spellbook neither so I don't have any opinion on that matter. My comments were directed to usage of Extra Spell in a Chameleon build with wizard dips, not the other way around. Sorry I misunderstood you.
//Bouncer
My 2 cp.
If you are using Chamelion, then you probably have access to many books (and UA variants).
Martial Rogue - Loses sneak attack, gains feats like a fighter. (not sure if this means at level 1,2,4,6,8... or if it replaces sneak at 1,3,5,7...).
This is a great way to pick up trapfinding, gain necessary skills, get evasion at level 2, and get a few free feats (since 1d6 sneak wont help much anyways)
Fighter (exoticist variant... old school) - Fighter that loses martial weapons proficiency but starts with 4 different exotic weapon proficiencies. Has a smaller fighter-feat list, but can pick up 2 different specialty feats. One is a general exotic weapon focus type thing, and another adds a +2 to all trip opposed rolls.
Crusader - Taken at the correct levels, this could result in several strong stances and decent moves. Its a nice, free bonus.
1st level should happen at level 5 (for 1st and 2nd lvl moves access), and a 2nd level should happen at 20 (for 6th level stance, move)
Combining these results in a good all-around battlefield control Tank type character.
Illumian Strength Sigil, Krau Sigil
str 14
dex 14
con 14
int 14
wis 14
cha 10
(32 pt buy, or similar array.. all further points go to STR)
1 martial rogue - Able Learner. bonusfeat: Combat Expertise. Trapfinding free.
2 Exoticist fighter - proficiency: spiked chain (and 3 others), bonus feat: Special +2 trip feat.
3 barbarian - Improved Trip. fast move, rage (or lion totem for pounce?)
4 Cloistered Cleric - domains: Luck (reroll), Planning (extended spell), free knowledge
5 Crusader - Manuevers gained.
6 Chameleon - persistent spell
7 cham - Floating feat: Divine Metamagic: Persist
8 Cham
9 Cham - Combat Reflexes
10 cham
11 cham
12 cham - extra turning.
13 cham
14 cham
15 cham - Divine Metamagic: Persist (free up the floating feat for a bonus manuever)
16 barbarian - uncanny dodge
17 martial rogue - evasion, free feat?? (armor specialization?)
18 exoticist fighter - Open Feat, free feat: Open (limited list though)
19 martial rogue (if didnt get a feat at 2, otherwise take barbarian or even Exotic Weaponmaster.)
20 crusader (6th level stance/move.)
DM should allow the many different classes because it fits the theme for Chameleon.
3 turns per day +4 nightstick +4 extra turning +3 reliquary holy symbol = 15 Enough for 2 spells. Could use another open feat for more extra turning if Reliquary or nightstick is disallowed. (just use ONE and you should be ok...)
I recommend Bite of the Wearbear (druid list) for +16STR, +7nat AC, +8CON, +2DEX, free POWER ATTACK, free BLINDFIGHTING
and
Righteous Might (+8 SIZE bonus to STR, +4CON. reach goes to 20 feet!)
(In this rare case, I recommend AGAINST Divine Might... the 1 extra -15 attack isnt worth it, and you lose a lot of STR for the +5AB)
Stance: Iron Glare (-4 to hit allies within your large reach), then Thicket of Blades (provoke attk of Opp for enemy movement), then Aura of Chaos or Order.
Skillpoints: 156 -- 48 rogue + 4fighter +40cham +6 clostered +8 barbarian +4crusader +46INT
Strength = 14 +5lvl up pumps +5 tome = 24 natural.
Add 6 untyped from Chamelion, +16enhancement from Bite, +8size from Righteous Might = 54!
Trip check = base +4 improved trip +2 exoticist special feat +2 strength sigil +4 large size from righteous might +22 strength = 34
Spell bonuses come from STRENGTH thanks to the illumian sigils, so lots and lots of them.
(we are talking 6/6/5/5/5/5 BONUS spells levels 1 through 6! with 54 STR)
Chamelion basically sticks with Divine and Fighting focuses all the time. Use lots of buffs, and don't overlook druidic, pally and ranger swift action spells. Halo of Sand = good long lasting deflection AC buff.
Stuff like Goodberry, 1st level lesser restoration, and other useful tools will take a lot off your main healer.
Dont even bother with arcane unless something specifically calls for it. Arcane has to deal with spell failure, no persistent spell access, limited spellbook issues. Plus there is no good way to focus arcane, cast lots of buffs, then switch to divine/fighting without causing a lot of problems (getting your high STR to stay up 24/7 especially).
Use your persistent spells at night before resting so you get the full spell bonuses from it and they will stay up all the time (except maybe when in town... large werebear looking dude might = RP problems.
Don't forget... Krau sigil adds +2 spell level to cloistered clerical spells and chameleon(between level 6 and 9)
Notable Equipment:
MUST have a +2WIS item by level 11 for highest divine access! Should be easy enough. Worst case scenario is to simply switch your floating attribute bonus to WIS.
Mithril Plate for high armor and good speed.
spiked chain primary weapon
Bead of Karma for +4 caster level for long lasting buffs (magic vestment, barkskin at lower lvls, greater magic weapon)
ONE nightstick (avoid DM wrath)
reliquary holy symbol
Other warrior-ish stuff (belt of battle, etc)
Ring of Spell Storing w/Greater Dispel for immunity to your biggest threat (normal dispel is very unlikely to work)
that magic bedroll thing for spell recovery in 2 hrs instead of 8. Very good since you have to make time for Meditation.
For example if you went X 5 / Chameleon 10 / MotUH 5, could you cast telekinesis at a caster level of 25?
SpellThief 9
Chameleon 10
Feats:
Able Learner
Master Spellthief
I'm not so sure it would work though because of the chameleon's focus invisibility to feats and the such.
I was considering a "red mage"-ish build with the chameleon a while back, I haven't played it yet so I don't know how well it would work.
SpellThief 9
Chameleon 10
Feats:
Able Learner
Master Spellthief
I'm not so sure it would work though because of the chameleon's focus invisibility to feats and the such.
From my reading it should boost the Chameleon's caster level (and anything for the spellthief that runs off of caster levels), but not the spellthiefs abilities that run off of class levels since the Chameleon isn't a spellcaster class.
In particular, Chameleon fits the definition of "other arcane spellcaster classes" in the feat's text, so the given character would be able to steal 9th-level spells just fine.
what are some good human races that can be used to qualify for the chameleon class?
Silverbrow Human: Draconic goodies. Azurin: Incarnum FTW. Illumian: Solid if you're multiclassing to get in.
Silverbrow Human: Draconic goodies. Azurin: Incarnum FTW. Illumian: Solid if you're multiclassing to get in.
What about changeling? I know they're humanoid (shapechanger), but if doppleganger and humans can be chameleons, could changelings be chameleons? I mean, they fit the description perfectly.
What about changeling? I know they're humanoid (shapechanger), but if doppleganger and humans can be chameleons, could changelings be chameleons? I mean, they fit the description perfectly.
Its almost always allowed.
I'm looking to build a Factotum/Chameleon. What are some of the builds that are out there for the 2 classes? Also, what are some good human races that can be used to qualify for the chameleon class?
A lot of the builds for that are in the Factotum handbook. They almost always come to Factotum 11 / Chameleon 9, to get the auto-SR ability, and use lots of "Font of Inspiration".
A lot of the builds for that are in the Factotum handbook. They almost always come to Factotum 11 / Chameleon 9, to get the auto-SR ability, and use lots of "Font of Inspiration".
That was one of the plans for the one in my sig.
A lot of the builds for that are in the Factotum handbook. They almost always come to Factotum 11 / Chameleon 9, to get the auto-SR ability, and use lots of "Font of Inspiration".
What about Changeling Factotum 11/Chameleon 8 with the Dark creature template (+1LA)?
What about Changeling Factotum 11/Chameleon 8 with the Dark creature template (+1LA)?
Thats not bad either; totally depends on what you want to do
. If you can get LA buyoff, then thats very cool... But, again, if you have LA buyoff as an option, Phrenic, Half-Fey, or Half-Vampire may be cooler...Portugese.
Thats not bad either; totally depends on what you want to do
Dark Creature template can be put on an item for 22k.
Dark Creature template can be put on an item for 22k.
I totally forgot about that; yeah, I'd say pick another template and wait until you can afford that item (should be affordable right when you can get into Chameleon).
After careful thought, I've decided on this: Factotum 4/Swashbuckler 3/Hexblade 3/Chameleon 10.
Factotum: Has all skills as class skills. Inspiration points can really save your hide. Mediocre BAB. Only reflex save.
Swashbuckler: Good BAB. Since Intelligence will be the character's key stat, the Insightful strike ability is a must if you want to be a descent fighter. Also, since Dexterity will probably be the secondary stat, the Weapon Finesse 1st level feat is not at all bad. It's also a good chance to improve your fortitude save.
Hexblade: Good BAB. Let's face it. Chameleon is a great class, but your saves will probably suck. That's where Hexblade comes in. Get your Charisma on saves against spells and spell-like effects. Paladin would be a better choice of course, but you get to have a code of contuct, which can be a hassle. You also improve your Will save.
I have not yet decided the feats, but I know one that is a must and that is Improved Trip. With Factotum, you get your intelligence on strength checks! Trip them all, I say!
EDIT: Reserve feats are great, but you can only have one thanks to the Chameleon bonus feat. Oh, well, one is better than none. ;)
The changeling is allowed to be a Chameleon by errata from Eberron.
=Aelryinth
Kindly note that none of the Chameleon temporary abiilties allow you to qualify for other classes. A Chameleon is not an arcane caster...he's a fake arcane caster. Just like the spells he scribbles down aren't real wizard/sorc spells, he doesn't qualify as real himself.
The changeling is allowed to be a Chameleon by errata from Eberron.
=Aelryinth
After reading more carefully, seems you're right. The way I read the paragraph was that, even though you can't qualify for feats with aptitude focus and such, that doesn't count for the bonus feat which is as changeable and temporary as your abilities. Well, one less headache for feat choices.
Thanks for the note.