Chameleon Crafting and Spell-prep

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

thugsb

Aug 27, 2011 10:21:25
I've been reading this post: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

It's clear that the Chameleon powers don't qualify you for CL to take Craft Wondrous Item, but if you have CL3 from another class (say Cleric3), then you can qualify. However, you only have CL3, so your items are max CL3 (ignore PracSpC). That's clear. However, can you craft items that require spells that you only know as a chameleon (in this case, arcane spells)? Or can you only craft with spells known in your other class (Cleric)?


Also, when you reach X5/Chameleon 5 you get Aptitude Focus 2/day. Does this allow you (after resting for 8hrs) to use the Divine Focus, cast a load of hr/lvl buff spells, and then immediately switch to Arcane Focus for the rest of the day? Or would you need to rest again before switching to Arcane Focus?

"At 5th level, you can change your aptitude focus one time per day, and at 10th level you can change your aptitude focus two times per day. If you change to the arcane focus or divine focus ability, you must still obey the normal rules for preparing spells (including any rest required)."


Edit: This thread has gone on to discuss whether Chameleons can maintain a spellbook, and if not, doesn't it limit them to arcane spells that can be written in a spellbook, i.e. just Wizard and WuJen spells (as those are the only 2 classes that have the Spellbook class feature).
#2

awaken_D_M_golem

Aug 27, 2011 14:12:53
See, I saw "chameleon crafting" and thought of the feat with that name in Dragon #349.
This is not that.


hmm ... idk , normally a spell can be supllied dude1 , separately from the crafter dude2.
Dude1 is level 1 with Cure Light Wounds, Dude2 is level 5 and making a Wand.
Combo = Yes, even though dude1 doesn't have enough CL to make a wand. Dude2 does that.

You're talking about separating: the spell from dude1 , and the CL from dude2.
Except you're dude1 and dude2, the same dude.

This is gonna be somewhere in the Help Crafting rules.
(sratches head)
#3

aelryinth

Aug 27, 2011 16:28:23
Arcane and Divine spells use different 'rest' periods, so you should be fine.

If the arcane and divine spells used the same spell slots, you'd have to rest.

Since it is possible for a chameleon to be a divine/arcane caster at the same time, with completely seperate spells, this is not a problem.

So, yeah, you can load up on cleric spells,c ast them all, take arcane focus, memorize spells, and keep on trucking.

==Aelryinth
#4

Tempest_Stormwind

Aug 27, 2011 18:20:42
www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneS...

Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions

If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.




While they should use different rest periods, they don't. Notice how that makes no distinction as to what sort of spells you're casting. So if you cast all your divine buffs, then switch aptitudes, you've cast spells within the last 8 hours, and they count against your daily limit. (The same problem shows up with theurge casters who don't get 8 hours of rest before they have to pray. Since most divine casters prepare spells at dawn, this doesn't particularly matter much (the previous 8 hours are spent sleeping for your arcane spells), but it might show up if, say, you're a diurnal adventurer who prays at dusk.)

Now, the argument is open as to whether those spells count against your limit of divine spells only, or daily limit of spells in general. I'm inclined to say divine-only (and indeed, on a per-class basis), but be advised that this is an area that a DM can and probably will kneecap with the nerf bat.
#5

thugsb

Aug 28, 2011 21:52:31
I'm not sure you're right on this one Tempest, as I think your straight reading of the rules is slightly off. If a Wiz3Cleric3 casts all her cleric spells (and no wizard spells), and then sits down to prepare spells straight afterwards, the spent cleric spellslots don't count against it's Wizard spell slots, although by your reading of the text above, it would. Therefore, the straight reading MUST be incorrect, as it must be referring to "all the [wizard] spells she has cast". No one plays assuming that she couldn't prepare ANY spells because she'd cast all her spells of ONE class.

To clarify, it can't be just Arcane/Divine, as a Wiz3/Sorc4 would be in the same boat - even if the spells overlapped, she could still prepare all her wizard spells, even if she had cast all her Sorc spells within the last 8 hrs (assuming she hadn't cast her wizard spells).

The question becomes, are the Arcane Focus and Divine Focus using the same spell slots? I think that given at Lvl7 the chameleon can get both Arcane and Divine spells slots at the same time (and they do get double the number of spells per day than a Chameleon with just 1 'magic' Focus), the spell slots for the different focuses MUST be different.

Therefore, a Chameleon is able to rest 8 hours, get the Divine Focus, pray for spells, cast them all, refocus to Arcane, Memorize spells, and be on her way with a load of divine buffs, and a mind full of arcane juicy goodness. Yay Chameleon!
#6

thugsb

Aug 28, 2011 22:28:52
Can I also just check, if I were to decide on the Arcane Focus, I could memorize wizard and bard and assassin spells on the same day, right? This is always the way the class is played?

I ask, because my DM believes otherwise. He thinks the Chameleon text should be read as follows: "You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any [ONE] arcane spellcasting class." In my experience, everyone else effectively interprets that sentences as "may be chosen from the spell list of and [ALL] arcane spellcasting class[es]."

Finally, the DM brings up a good point about the spellbook. The link in my original post discusses that Chameleons can't write in their own spellbook, as that's not a class feature they have. In fact, I believe on Wizards and Wu Jen have spellbooks, and they are the only classes able to write them (maybe there's other prestige classes I'm unaware of).

However, the problem is that Wizards can only write Wizard spells into a spell book, and Wu Jens can only write Wu Jen spells. That means that the ONLY spells that can appear in spellbooks are Wizard or Wu Jen spells. Thus, the ONLY arcane spells that Chameleons can use are Wizard or Wu Jen spells, as Chameleons REQUIRE spellbooks to memorize spell from. But this is obviously not the way they are normally played.

So what's going on? Can anyone write into spellbooks, even though they don't have it listed in their Class Features? Or can Wizards/Wu Jen make spellbooks that contain spells that aren't on their spell lists (which would surely require them to understand and effectively be able to cast spells that aren't on their list?)? Or has everyone been playing the Chameleon wrong, assuming that non-Wizard-or-WuJen spells can exist in spellbooks?

Thanks!
#7

Slagger_the_Chuul

Aug 28, 2011 22:54:29
Finally, the DM brings up a good point about the spellbook. The link in my original post discusses that Chameleons can't write in their own spellbook, as that's not a class feature they have. In fact, I believe on Wizards and Wu Jen have spellbooks, and they are the only classes able to write them (maybe there's other prestige classes I'm unaware of).

However, the problem is that Wizards can only write Wizard spells into a spell book, and Wu Jens can only write Wu Jen spells. That means that the ONLY spells that can appear in spellbooks are Wizard or Wu Jen spells. Thus, the ONLY arcane spells that Chameleons can use are Wizard or Wu Jen spells, as Chameleons REQUIRE spellbooks to memorize spell from. But this is obviously not the way they are normally played.

If they don't have the spellbook class feature, they also won't have the line in that class feature that limits them to preparing spells from that spellbook.

So, by that reasoning, they must use a spellbook to prepare spells, but they aren't limited to preparing only spells from that spellbook (since that restriction is part of the spellbook class feature, which they don't posssess).  I guess that does fit with the description of the arcane focus, since they can therefore prepare spells from any arcane spellcasting class.

Essentially, they can't have non-wizard or non-wu jen spells in their spellbook, but the actual contents of the spellbook are irrelevant when determining their arcane spells from being a Chameleon.  Just having a spellbook of any kind is enough for a Chameleon.
#8

thugsb

Aug 29, 2011 7:36:57
But "You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook". Wizards prepare spells by memorizing them from a spellbook. Therefore Chameleons prepare spells by memorizing them from a spellbook, "just as a wizard does".

If you can find a spellbook with non-Wizard/WuJen spells, then they can obviously use those spells. However, the argument is that the ONLY classes that can make spellbooks are Wiz&Wu, therefore no spellbooks exist anywhere that have non-Wiz&Wu spells.

Are you really trying to say that although a Chameleon needs a spellbook, it can memorize spells that aren't in a spellbook? Because that doesn't add up at all. That's not memorizing "Just as a wizard does".
#9

Slagger_the_Chuul

Aug 29, 2011 8:25:08
But "You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook". Wizards prepare spells by memorizing them from a spellbook. Therefore Chameleons prepare spells by memorizing them from a spellbook, "just as a wizard does".

Wizards do use a spellbook to prepare spells, and in that sense the Chameleon prepares them in the same way.  But wizards also possess the "Spellbooks" class feature that describes them as being restricted to preparing spells from their spellbook.

So, a Chameleon must use a spellbook to prepare spells, but (without the spellbooks class feature) is not restricted to only preparing spells from that spellbook.
Are you really trying to say that although a Chameleon needs a spellbook, it can memorize spells that aren't in a spellbook? Because that doesn't add up at all. That's not memorizing "Just as a wizard does".

The wizard's limitation that "She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook" is made by the "Spellbooks" part of the wizard class, which you've established that the Chameleon doesn't receive.  The basic "Spells" part of the wizard class doesn't provide that restriction.

So, exactly as described for Arcane Focus, the prepared spells "may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class".  Restricting the Chameleon to the wizard and/or wu jen spells would conflict with this description.
#10

thugsb

Aug 29, 2011 9:23:32
So all they need is a blank spellbook, or maybe a spellbook with a single spell in it? That allows them to memorize any spell they choose, from anywhere?

Why do people see the need to use Extra Spell to get more spells then? 
#11

Tempest_Stormwind

Aug 29, 2011 12:14:57
Because Slagger, I think, is reading "exactly as a wizard does" as something separate from the Spellbook "class feature" as opposed to something related to the section on preparing wizard spells, which also describes needing the spellbook. I respectfully disagree.

I read the chameleon as needing a spellbook, and only able to prepare spells actually in the spellbook (either ones he's deciphered and understood, or scribed himself), but isn't bound to any one arcane casting class' list when selecting those spells. (A wu jen looking at a wizard spellbook can only prepare spells that are also on the wu jen list, even if she understands them, and vice versa. Chameleons can bypass this.) With that in mind, let's see what it says:
You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class. You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook (chameleons often use stolen or borrowed spellbooks; see page 178 of the Player's Handbook for details).

It sure seems to require the spells on hand from a spellbook (otherwise why would it reference the section on borrowed or stolen spellbooks, which says you need to decipher and understand individual spells from the books before you can prepare them?), but it explicitly doesn't have a class limit on what it can mimic.

You may very well be able to scribe bard spells, sorcerer-only spells (although these tend to specifically not work with preparation), wu jen spells, and other arcane spells not available to normal wizards. This means that a chameleon's personal spellbook (if he maintains one and doesn't take pains to hide its nature) will look positively bizarre to a typical wizard. (You'd probably be best to maintain two or more spellbooks - one for non-traditional spells, and one for each other class you intend to mimic. That way, if you're at, say, a wizard college, you can keep the wu jen spellbook and the chameleon spellbook safely in the bag of holding and still share spells from your wizard book.)
#12

thugsb

Aug 29, 2011 13:34:48
I agree with you here Tempest. I think the Chameleon needs a spellbook, and can only memorize spells in a spellbook (just as a wizard does).

But can Chameleons maintain a spellbook? If so, why do they need to steal or borrow spellbooks, rather than just having their own? Is that just flavour for the class?

I think it's important that the class references PHB p178. Both the wizard and wu-jen reference that page, and other arcane non-spellbook classes don't. However, given it's inside the brackets, maybe it's pointing us to the "Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks" section, not the rest of the "ARCANE MAGICAL WRITINGS" section?

Also, I'd argue that to 'use' a spellbook means to 'maintain' it. Does that fly? Even if you think it does, I'd need a stronger argument than that.

The ARCANE MAGICAL WRITINGS section on p178 starts: "To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell." Not a 'wizard', a 'character'. The reference to 'wizard' in that paragraph is merely to state that the wizards discovered arcane writing, not that they exclusively do it. It goes on to refer to the 'writer' and a 'person's magical writing', further indication that magical writing is NOT restricted to wizards.

But still, none of these arguments are very strong to suggest that Chameleons can indeed write spells into a spellbook, whether their own or stolen. And if Chameleons can't, then neither can Bards or Assassins, which would mean Chameleons could only prepare Wizard or WuJen spells.

So what gives? Can anyone record spells in spellbooks? Or does the text in the Chameleon strongly suggest that they can? Or are they severly restricted, in a way that not even the authors intended them to be?
#13

Tempest_Stormwind

Aug 29, 2011 13:49:15
I agree with you here Tempest. I think the Chameleon needs a spellbook, and can only memorize spells in a spellbook (just as a wizard does).

But can Chameleons maintain a spellbook? If so, why do they need to steal or borrow spellbooks, rather than just having their own? Is that just flavour for the class?

Who would go through the years of study allegedly required to learn to cast spells as a wizard does, when you can just pick up another person's spellbook and make it up as you go along? Plus, how would they mimic a wizard if all they had were their own starting spellbooks, which are probably blank? It'd be like mimicking a knight when all you've got is a pitchfork.

They obviously don't need to steal spellbooks, since they can start their own as per Arcane Magical Writings, but it certainly gives them a leg up on mimicking CR-appropriate wizards.

But still, none of these arguments are very strong to suggest that Chameleons can indeed write spells into a spellbook, whether their own or stolen. And if Chameleons can't, then neither can Bards or Assassins, which would mean Chameleons could only prepare Wizard or WuJen spells.

So what gives? Can anyone record spells in spellbooks? Or does the text in the Chameleon strongly suggest that they can? Or are they severly restricted, in a way that not even the authors intended them to be?


Since the chameleon can use a spellbook just as a wizard does, and Arcane Magical Writings (under Writing A New Spell Into A Spellbook) says that wizards can write any spell they understand into their spellbooks, a chameleon can do the same. Doing so wipes the spell from their mind as if she had cast it. 

I'm not sure a bard or assassin could write spells into spellbooks either, since they can't actually use spellbooks. However, it is possible for them to take Scribe Scroll, scribe a spell that also appears on the wizard list, pass the scroll to a wizard and help her decipher it, then have the wizard either copy the scroll into the spellbook directly or prepare the spell from the scroll and copy it from her mind. A chameleon could serve either role here - but unlike the others, he has an ace up his sleeve. He can use his floating feat on Extra Spell to learn spells from other class lists in the first place. It's not clear what "learn" means vis-a-vis his spellbook, but it's clear that this feat can be used to give him access to other spell lists, which can then go into the spellbook somehow.
#14

Slagger_the_Chuul

Aug 29, 2011 20:44:46
Because Slagger, I think, is reading "exactly as a wizard does" as something separate from the Spellbook "class feature" as opposed to something related to the section on preparing wizard spells, which also describes needing the spellbook. I respectfully disagree.

While you may need a spellbook (a point on which I agree), which sentence of the link you've provided says that you can only prepare spells from that spellbook?
#15

Tempest_Stormwind

Aug 29, 2011 21:09:14
Because Slagger, I think, is reading "exactly as a wizard does" as something separate from the Spellbook "class feature" as opposed to something related to the section on preparing wizard spells, which also describes needing the spellbook. I respectfully disagree.

While you may need a spellbook (a point on which I agree), which sentence of the link you've provided says that you can only prepare spells from that spellbook?


"Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used."

I know the explicit restriction is in the wizard spellbook section, not the arcane magical writings section, but if you're saying that any class that casts "as a wizard" without the specific spellbook feature is able to prepare any spell they could cast from their list if they simply own any spellbook, that seems kind of dodgy. 

(I can't think of any non-wizard/wu-jen spellbook-using classes off the top of my head other than the Chameleon (unless the 3e Assassin counts), but then again I don't usually play arcane casters, and independent-casting PrCs always take a backseat to +1 Caster Level PrCs on the optimization forums, so it's quite possible one slipped my notice. I think there may even have been a feat that let you do this.)


-------------------


EDIT: Found what I was remembering. The feat Magical Training (PGtF) lets any character cast basic spells as either a sorcerer or wizard. It even comes with a spellbook for free, with a few cantrips in it, if you choose wizard, but does NOT actually come with the Spellbook feature. (It has a change-of-function clause if you actually have levels in Wizard which render the argument moot, but if you had levels in Wizard, you'd have the Spellbook feature anyway.)

So, for instance, a Rogue 1 with Magical Training (Wizard) has a spellbook with a few cantrips in it, and prepares and casts spells exactly as a wizard does (the feat only grants three 0-level spell slots). She does NOT have the Spellbook feature.

Does this mean she could pick up any ol' spellbook, ignore its contents, and prepare any cantrip in her book, even if the book is safely at home overseas? [She can prepare spells from her spellbook, after all - it's not in Spellbook, but rather in Preparing Arcane Spells.]

Does it mean she can prepare any wizard cantrip at all, even if it isn't in her book or the book she's reading? [She lacks the Spellbook feature that explicitly limits her to spells in her spellbook, but is bound by the Preparing Arcane Spells rule above.] 

Seems to me these answers also apply to the chameleon. 
#16

Slagger_the_Chuul

Aug 29, 2011 21:25:48
I know the explicit restriction is in the wizard spellbook section, not the arcane magical writings section, but if you're saying that any class that casts "as a wizard" without the specific spellbook feature is able to prepare any spell if they simply own a spellbook, that seems kind of dodgy.

It does, on the surface, until you remember that we're talking about the Chameleon, a class which is built on doing things you aren't really trained to do in the normal sense.

Not relying on the spellbook's contents for preparing spells fits perfectly for the Chameleon in the exact text of the rules (which don't enforce a dependence on its contents), the description of her casting (able to prepare arcane spells from any list), and the style and intent of the prestige class (able to "fake" a diverse array of abilities without learning them in the normal manner).
EDIT:
EDIT: Found what I was remembering. The feat Magical Training (PGtF) lets any character cast basic spells as either a sorcerer or wizard. It even comes with a spellbook for free, with a few cantrips in it, if you choose wizard, but does NOT actually come with the Spellbook feature. (It has a change-of-function clause if you actually have levels in Wizard which render the argument moot, but if you had levels in Wizard, you'd have the Spellbook feature anyway.)

Does it mean she can prepare any wizard cantrip at all, even if it isn't in her book or the book she's reading? [She lacks the Spellbook feature that explicitly limits her to spells in her spellbook, but is bound by the Preparing Arcane Spells rule above.] 

Seems to me these answers also apply to the chameleon. 

Unlike the Chameleon, the Magical Training feat makes no description of being able to prepare spells from any class, which provides an additional consideration for the Chameleon.  If you've just got the feat, you haven't been given any other possible source for your spells except the book; if you've got the prestige class, you've been explicitly told that you can prepare and cast arcane spells from any class, in addition to the rules not excluding the mere possibility.


#17

Tempest_Stormwind

Aug 29, 2011 21:44:05
I can buy the fluff argument for the chameleon, but can't spot a mechanical distinction between the two rules apart from the lists. 

Chameleon:


  • "You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class. You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook (chameleons often use stolen or borrowed spellbooks; see page 178 of the Player's Handbook for details)."



Magical Training:


  • "You can cast three 0-level arcane spells per day as either a sorcerer or wizard.... If you choose to cast spells as a wizard.... You have a spellbook with three 0-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer/wizard list. You prepare your spells exactly as a wizard does."



In both cases, you prepare (and cast, although Magical Training says so in a roundabout way) spells exactly as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook. The only difference between them here is that the chameleon isn't limited to the wizard spell list, so if he happens upon a wu jen's spellbook he can pretty clearly handle it, while the Magical Training character cannot. (In fact, if the characters exchanged spellbooks and helped each other with Spellcraft, the Magical Training character would only be able to prepare and cast the wizard cantrips from the chameleon's book, while the chameleon could handle anything in the Magical Training character's book without a problem. He may even scribe a bard cantrip in there while he's got it, just to be mean. "What do you mean, Cure Minor Wounds isn't too different from Ray of Frost?"

(If the chameleon could freely prepare any arcane spell from any list even if it wasn't in his spellbook, there would be no reason to refer to page 178 for Arcane Magical Writings. That section pretty clearly adds another distinction - spells in the Chameleon's book can be prepared from a borrowed spellbook without deciphering, but those that are totally new require Spellcraft to understand. That distinction makes a chameleon's personal spellbook relevant - if that doesn't matter, and she can prepare any spell without maintaining "her" spellbook, then she'd need to use Spellcraft all the time. That's a pretty solid distinction, and would be worth including explicitly in the PrC ability itself, wouldn't it? Similar to the artificer's requirement to emulate spells via UMD when crafting. But I digress; while important, it's beside my point.) 

So let's say the spell in question is actually on the wizard spell list, but not present in either character's spellbook. (Say, it's one of the Spell Compendium cantrips and the Magically Trained character only has PHB spells in her spellbook, while the chameleon's is blank.) In this case, both characters are using a spellbook (without the Spellbook class feature) to prepare and cast a spell exactly as a wizard would, except while the spell is on a list available to them, it isn't actually in their spellbook. Can either one prepare and cast it? If the answer is different for each case, could you explain?

I'm not sure I'm buying "the chameleon has access to other lists" being the same as "the chameleon can prepare spells outside his spellbook".  I just see it as letting him cast alien spells - after all, he's not trained in the same traditions as a wizard, but can fake it and improvise when he sees an arcane spell from a different list. Just like a jazz musician, he knows how to handle one instrument in a wide range of situations, but without the same degree of specialization in one aspect of the art (in the music analogy, let's say Austro-German classical structure) that several traditional masters would boast. He still needs to actually see the arcane spell, though, which is where the spellbook comes into play.


(Aside: I'm actually tone-deaf, so I have no idea if that's a valid analogy or not. My advisor just does research into classical music and neural networks, and the office across the hall is addicted to jazz, so I've picked up a few things along the way.)
#18

Slagger_the_Chuul

Aug 29, 2011 22:33:55
In both cases, you prepare (and cast, although Magical Training says so in a roundabout way) spells exactly as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook. The only difference between them here is that the chameleon isn't limited to the wizard spell list.

There's one more difference in that Magical Training explicitly gives you a spellbook of your own.  It's certainly not as explict as saying "You receive the spellbook class feature", but the description of casting "as a wizard" doesn't describe a specific class feature by name either, so they're working on the same level of description.

In addition, you need to consider how each source provides the equivalent of its spells known.  Magical Training provides either known sorcerer spells or gives you a spellbook, both facts explicitly described by the feat.  In the absence of a spellbook, the only description of what spells a Chameleon using their arcane focus might know is that the spells "may be chosen from the list of any arcane spellcasting class".

And lastly, if a Chameleon was required to prepare spells only from their spellbook in exactly the same manner as a wizard, she would be unable to cast arcane spells at all.  Even in the description of wizards using borrowed spellbooks, they are only permitted to prepare spells that are already in their own spellbook.  Nor can they write them into their non-spellbook for later preparation, since that facility is also provided only to a wizard (and extended to a wu jen via their class description). 

Mechanically speaking, the only way the Chameleon's arcane focus can even function is by operating independent of a spellbook.
#19

Tempest_Stormwind

Aug 29, 2011 22:51:40
In both cases, you prepare (and cast, although Magical Training says so in a roundabout way) spells exactly as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook. The only difference between them here is that the chameleon isn't limited to the wizard spell list.

There's one more difference in that Magical Training explicitly gives you a spellbook of your own.  It's certainly not as explict as saying "You receive the spellbook class feature", but the description of casting "as a wizard" doesn't describe a specific class feature by name either, so they're working on the same level of description.

I guess I always viewed a spellbook as an item, not a class feature - albeit an item you got as part of a class feature. (Sort of like a lightsaber in Star Wars.) In that regard, having multiple spellbooks for one wizard, capturing and deciphering an enemy spellbook, and so on all function as normal instead of treating the item as something that augments a class feature (like, say, a nightstick).

In addition, you need to consider how each source provides the equivalent of its spells known.  Magical Training provides either known sorcerer spells or gives you a spellbook, both facts explicitly described by the feat.  In the absence of a spellbook, the only description of what spells a Chameleon using their arcane focus might know is that the spells "may be chosen from the list of any arcane spellcasting class".


But if they can prepare spells without reading them in a spellbook, they aren't operating "just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook". Rather, since they'd be selecting things off of the entire list, they'd prepare spells the way a cleric does, albeit with the need for any ol' spellbook to act as a catalyst (the way several bards play an instrument while readying spell slots). WotC would almost certainly have written it that way if this is how it's intended, instead of referencing the wizard and relying on clever rules lawyering to figure out that it actually works closer to the cleric.

And lastly, if a Chameleon was required to prepare spells only from their spellbook in exactly the same manner as a wizard, she would be unable to cast arcane spells at all.  Even in the description of wizards using borrowed spellbooks, they are only permitted to prepare spells that are already in their own spellbook.  Nor can they write them into their non-spellbook for later preparation, since that facility is also provided only to a wizard (and extended to a wu jen via their class description). 

Mechanically speaking, the only way the Chameleon's arcane focus can even function is by operating independent of a spellbook.

Or if the spellbook itself isn't a class feature, but rather an item needed to use one. In that regard it's like a holy symbol or set of thieves' tools. Plus, I know of several scenarioo in which the chameleon could cast spells with a spellbook, the way a wizard does, even under RAW.

The first, and simplest, scenario is to borrow or steal a spellbook and use the Replacing and Copying Spellbooks rules to create your own as a copy. The copy uses notation he understands (or at least understands while using Arcane Focus), which is why he can prepare from it. (Incidentally, if the wizard can only prepare spells from HIS spellbook, the Replacing text would be worthless - if I only have one spellbook, and it dies in a fire, I couldn't use a borrowed spellbook to re-prepare the spells that were in the burned one (since I have no spellbook with which to hold spells, meaning I'm not permitted to prepare spells from a borrowed book). This is contrary to what the text says.)

The second scenario is uniquely chameleon: purchasing a spellbook and setting your floating feat to Extra Spell, then scribing the extra spell into the book according to Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook (which isn't part of the wizard class description).

In the last scenario, a chameleon could borrow or steal a spellbook, decipher its writing, use Spellcraft to be sure he understands the spells, and then copy it into a new spellbook using his notation in a way he'll understand (according to Spells Copied from Another Spellbook or Scroll). He can then prepare the spells from either book (although the captured book requires a Spellcraft check). 

All of the underlined scenarios show how a chameleon can turn a purchased blank spellbook into a functional spellbook without getting one as part of the Spellbook feature. All the rules are exclusively found in the Arcane Magical Writings section (not part of any class). They do require the chameleon to go to some lengths to get the spells in the first place (perhaps more daring than simple spell research - leave that to the wizards), but this is justified by the class saying it frequently uses borrowed or stolen spellbooks. (In fact, it shows us exactly why - without resorting to others' spellbooks at first, a chameleon only knows whatever spells he can pick up with Extra Spell, which is slow and costly and not very convincing as a wizard mimic. Thus, they grab what they can, copy it down for reference in terms they understand, and move on to the next book - or the next role to play.)
#20

Slagger_the_Chuul

Aug 29, 2011 23:16:58
But if they can prepare spells without reading them in a spellbook, they aren't operating "just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook". Rather, since they'd be selecting things off of the entire list, they'd prepare spells the way a cleric does, albeit with the need for any ol' spellbook to act as a catalyst (the way several bards play an instrument while readying spell slots).

If they're limited to what's in the book, they aren't choosing them "from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class".
The first, and simplest, scenario is to borrow or steal a spellbook and use the Replacing and Copying Spellbooks rules to create your own as a copy. The copy uses notation he understands (or at least understands while using Arcane Focus), which is why he can prepare from it. (Incidentally, if the wizard can only prepare spells from HIS spellbook, the Replacing text would be worthless - if I only have one spellbook, and it dies in a fire, I couldn't use a borrowed spellbook to re-prepare the spells that were in the burned one (since I have no spellbook with which to hold spells, meaning I'm not permitted to prepare spells from a borrowed book). This is contrary to what the text says.)

Unless you either treat it as a class feature or still count your spellbook as a spellbook after it's been reduced to a pile of ash.  Either way, only being able to prepare spells from your own spellbook is what the text describes.

And replacing a spellbook requires you to prepare the spell in the first place, so you have to be able to make the spellbook before you can prepare the spells you need to make the spellbook.
The second scenario is uniquely chameleon: purchasing a spellbook and setting your floating feat to Extra Spell, then scribing the extra spell into the book according to Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook (which isn't part of the wizard class description).

Not only does that section still describe the spellbook receiving the spell as "her spellbook" (instead of someone else's spellbook), the Extra Spell feat only allows you to learn a new spell.  If the spellbook is just a tool, it won't suddenly generate more writing when the Chameleon takes the feat; if the spellbook is a class feature for accumulating such knowledge, the Chameleon doesn't have it, so writing in the book achieves nothing.
In the last scenario, a chameleon could borrow or steal a spellbook, decipher its writing, use Spellcraft to be sure he understands the spells, and then copy it into a new spellbook using his notation in a way he'll understand (according to Spells Copied from Another Spellbook or Scroll). He can then prepare the spells from either book (although the captured book requires a Spellcraft check).

And limited once again by the Chameleon's design.  She may be able to "prepare" and "cast" spells just as a wizard does, but she doesn't learn or copy them in the same manner.

#21

Tempest_Stormwind

Aug 29, 2011 23:41:11
But if they can prepare spells without reading them in a spellbook, they aren't operating "just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook". Rather, since they'd be selecting things off of the entire list, they'd prepare spells the way a cleric does, albeit with the need for any ol' spellbook to act as a catalyst (the way several bards play an instrument while readying spell slots).

If they're limited to what's in the book, they aren't choosing them "from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class".

So either way, we have a violation of one part of the rules. If you're right, they aren't working like a wizard. If I'm right, they're choosing them from a subset of every arcane spell list (but that subset could hypothetically grow to include the whole list).

At this point I'm forced to appeal to Occam's Razor. What's simpler: That the chameleon works like a wizard who doesn't freely start with a spellbook (and thus is forced to copy or prepare from stolen books, and the "her" in Arcane Magical Writings is being necessarily casual), or that the chameleon actually acts like an entirely different class, that Magical Training lets people actually do the same thing (stowing their spellbook across a continent, picking up a blank book, and preparing their spells from it), and Wizards intended people to do clever and subtle rules parsing to figure this out?

Regarding that note on casual tone, it's worth bringing up that the 3e PHB included the following sidebar right on page 6, with the introduction (emphasis mine):
Show
The action of a Dungeons & Dragons game takes place in the imaginations of the players. Like actors in a movie, players sometimes speak as if they were their characters or as if their fellow players were their characters. These rules even adopt that casual approach, using“you” to refer to and to mean “your character.” In reality, however, you are no more your character than you are the king when you play chess. Likewise, the world implied by these rules is an imaginary one.
#22

Slagger_the_Chuul

Aug 30, 2011 0:14:46
At this point I'm forced to appeal to Occam's Razor. What's simpler: That the chameleon works like a wizard who doesn't freely start with a spellbook (and thus is forced to copy or prepare from stolen books, and the "her" in Arcane Magical Writings is being necessarily casual), or that the chameleon actually acts like an entirely different class, that Magical Training lets people actually do the same thing (stowing their spellbook across a continent, picking up a blank book, and preparing their spells from it), and Wizards intended people to do clever and subtle rules parsing to figure this out?

If we're appealing to simplicity, it's actually simpler to allow the Chameleon to prepare any arcane spells she likes and treat the spellbook as a vaguely convenient tool for her.

Add to that the possibility that Magical Training also gives you full spellbook functionality by giving you a spellbook (which makes sense) and you have a pair of instances that are very simple and easy to use.  One gives you a very limited spellbook, the other completely avoids the hassle of maintaining a spellbook.
Not to mention it plays with Magical Training as well (she lacks the Spellbook feature saying she has to prepare spells only from those in her spellbook too, so nothing's stopping her from picking up her spellbook with just Detect Magic, Light, and Daze in it, and preparing Sonic Snap, Ray of Frost, and Dancing Lights.)

Unlike the Chameleon, a character with just Magical Training doesn't have any other potential source for how they can know any spells.  Chameleons can choose spells from "any arcane spellcasting class"; Magical Training just gives you the ability to cast some spells and a spellbook, without any other potential for making a selection.

Or to put it another way:

Magical Training gives you a spellbook and allows you to cast spells just like a wizard; everything here is described as being like a wizard, so it works exactly the same way.

Arcane Focus allows you to cast spells just like a wizard, except that you are not given a spellbook and can choose spells to prepare from an arcane spellcasting class.
The way I see it, "including the use of a spellbook" includes the rules on reading and writing from a spellbook. Otherwise, what, per se, is one actually using the book for? Rolling papers?

That depends on how you're getting it.  If you're using Magical Training, where nothing contradicts the typical application of wizard casting, it works like a wizard.  If you're a Chameleon, you're using it to do spellcasting without fulfilling all the normal requirements; exactly how that works is left up to that "casual" part of description.
#23

Tempest_Stormwind

Aug 30, 2011 12:35:33
There is something that contradicts wizard casting with magical trainong, though: no spellbook class feature. Thus, by your reading, I can pick up my spellbook (which I got frpm the feat) and prepare any wizard cantrip ever, since they're selected from the wizard spell list. By my reading, 'the use of a spellbook' implies that it works the way the feature suggests and you're limited to the spells inside your book - and 'your' book is simply the book you bought and have written things into as per arcane magical writings. The chameleon still needs to use a spellbook lika wizard, but is not limited to wizard spells when preparing from (or writing into) that spellbook.

(Posting from phone, sorry) 
#24

Slagger_the_Chuul

Aug 30, 2011 21:06:04
There is something that contradicts wizard casting with magical trainong, though: no spellbook class feature. Thus, by your reading, I can pick up my spellbook (which I got frpm the feat) and prepare any wizard cantrip ever, since they're selected from the wizard spell list.

If anything, that makes it more like wizard spellcasting, as a wizard's spellbook typically includes all 0-level wizard spells except the ones from prohibited schools.


#25

Tempest_Stormwind

Aug 30, 2011 21:31:40
Except the wizard's spellbook contains those spells, and the Magical Training character's spellbook does not (it only contains three of them). A wizard fairly explicitly cannot prepare spells without referencing them in a spellbook. By your reading, a character with Magical Training and a Chameleon can both pick up the Magical Training person's spellbook, and instantly choose any spells off of the wizard (or any arcane, for the chameleon) list to prepare and cast because, despite working "just like a wizard does (including the use of a spellbook)", they don't have the explicit text saying they're limited to spells in the spellbook, and thus do not actually work just like a wizard does (since they aren't using the spellbook except as an elaborate prop - its contents do not matter).

To me, that seems inordinately bizarre - far more bizarre than just thinking of it as an oversight. 
#26

Slagger_the_Chuul

Aug 30, 2011 22:03:24
Except the wizard's spellbook contains those spells, and the Magical Training character's spellbook does not (it only contains three of them). A wizard fairly explicitly cannot prepare spells without referencing them in a spellbook. By your reading, a character with Magical Training and a Chameleon can both pick up the Magical Training person's spellbook, and instantly choose any spells off of the wizard (or any arcane, for the chameleon) list to prepare and cast because, despite working "just like a wizard does (including the use of a spellbook)", they don't have the explicit text saying they're limited to spells in the spellbook, and thus do not actually work just like a wizard does (since they aren't using the spellbook except as an elaborate prop - its contents do not matter).

To me, that seems inordinately bizarre - far more bizarre than just thinking of it as an oversight. 

If you're going to think of it as an oversight, I'd probably put it only on Magical Training for not stating that by giving you a spellbook they mean that you actually have the spellbook class feature (if such it can be called).

The prestige class does a lot to suggest that a Chameleon doesn't prepare spells from a spellbook in the same way as a wizard; her ability to select from any arcane spell list, use of stolen or borrowed spellbooks, and the general style of the class that allows her to do things that aren't normally possible without special training.  She doesn't cast exactly like a wizard because she's only pretending to be a wizard, and the text supports it.
#27

aelryinth

Aug 30, 2011 22:14:37
You two are such nerds!

A 20 post argument/discussion on Arcane Focus of the Chameleon, of all things! ;)

==Aelryinth