Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 totenkinder Jun 26, 2008 16:36:24	Ok, I read through the thread titled "Changeling Cheese?" and though I get the basic idea around it all, the main exploitable build confused me on how it works. Supposedly you take an animal and pile on a ton of templates until it is an unholy abomination. Then you make it the subject of Lycan. You give this uber Lycan template to any medium humanoid. Then, using a Changeling's shapeshifting abilities, Racial Emulation and Assume Supernatural ability, you can use the templated humanoid's alternate form to turn into the unholy abomination you made. What confuses me is...doesn't even putting one template on an animal make it stop being an animal?
#2 deathlessjuan Jun 26, 2008 16:40:18	Not necessarily. As long as the templates don't change the creature's type, it would still work. If, at the end of all the templates, the creature still possesses the "animal" type (not to be confused with subtypes), then its perfectly fine
#3 totenkinder Jun 26, 2008 16:43:20	Not necessarily. As long as the templates don't change the creature's type, it would still work. I'm not finding many of those. Are there any templates that change the creature type to animal?
#4 totenkinder Jun 26, 2008 18:58:00	Bump
#5 ejothims Jun 27, 2008 15:49:59	Btw... this no longer works. The errata change on it actually dates to 2/17/06, though I didn't notice until the recent article. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060502a "A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template." Additionally: "The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian's rage class feature)." Bye bye Feral Lycanthropes... And: "Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution." Is there a point to Lycanthropes any more? It USED to work, and Magebred and Horrid were pretty much the niftiest templates to tack on. Warbeast worked also, as did Woodling and Titanic (though this increases the HD so was a no-no... Though, with the Changeling trick would have been okay). Others too, as long as they worked on animals and did not change the type. And of course, if you wanted real cheese, make it an Epic Paragon animal... Though Racial Emulation and Assume Supernatural Ability is a neat combination to grab non-templated Lycanthrope forms. And with no LA either.
#6 deathlessjuan Jun 27, 2008 17:22:04	And: "Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution." Is there a point to Lycanthropes any more? I have never seen the point to this ruling and ignore it whenever possible. My mages and every character that ever plays for me will gain, or lose, HP if their constitution rises, or falls, no matter what form they are in (not lower than 1 hp per HD of course, that takes con of 0)
#7 ejothims Jun 27, 2008 18:04:06	I have never seen the point to this ruling and ignore it whenever possible. My mages and every character that ever plays for me will gain, or lose, HP if their constitution rises, or falls, no matter what form they are in (not lower than 1 hp per HD of course, that takes con of 0) Yea. I never saw the point either. But of course, when I houserule it, that whole section of nerfs to lycanthropy is ignored entirely.
#8 totenkinder Jun 27, 2008 23:37:58	It USED to work, and Magebred and Horrid were pretty much the niftiest templates to tack on. Warbeast worked also, as did Woodling and Titanic (though this increases the HD so was a no-no... Though, with the Changeling trick would have been okay). Others too, as long as they worked on animals and did not change the type. And of course, if you wanted real cheese, make it an Epic Paragon animal... Though Racial Emulation and Assume Supernatural Ability is a neat combination to grab non-templated Lycanthrope forms. And with no LA either. Regular Lycans are only so so. I went with a Neraphim Divine Minion Sor 1/MoMF 4 instead.
#9 ejothims Jun 30, 2008 13:54:20	Regular Lycans are only so so. Ones out of the book maybe (though bear and tiger are good, just not worth the LA). But with this trick you can be use the hybrid form of say, a WereT-rex at 0 LA and with no racial hit dice. Or a Werebattletitan (MM3 Dinosaur, 42 Str, 20 NA, 60 speed, Imp Grab, Swallow Whole, Huge size). I'd say that is a pretty nifty trick.