I personally am a great fan of gish, and I've seen many others who share similar tastes for the fighter/mage hybrid. This thread is dedicated to teaching what gish are, how they work, and the various kinds people enjoy playing.
While the technical appliance of the term "gish" is for a "warrior then mage" build, it has been brought to my attention many people also enjoy "mage then warrior" builds. Therefore, I want to broaden the definition of gish when applying it to this thread's focus.
What is "gish"?
Gish is the term used for any fighter/mage build where the character's focus in both spellcasting and martial combat is at least somewhat equal and where both aspects of the character are viable. Spellcasting and Manifesting (for psionics) can usually be used interchangeably.
In order for a character to be considered "gish", they must be capable of higher level spellcasting (6th-9th level spells), or capable of attacks with BAB +15 to +18, or a combination of these two things. There are a few very rare exceptions to this rule and these, some examples being the hexblade, bard, 3.5 assassin, fist of zuoken, and warmind) and these are treated as very unusual characters despite their obviously gish-like abilities/tendencies.
Gish builds are arguably the best "glue" to any adventuring party simply because of their dual-purpose nature. There are various types of gish, as is indicated above, and while each one has its own unique role in a group they are all excellent characters for binding a party’s attributes.
In the next several sections, all aspects relating to gish will be discussed and this thread will be updated as much as possible.
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Part 1: Classes
Starting Off
When looking closely at a gish build, there is always the primary concern of early levels. Afterall, before acquiring any of the several mage/warrior prestige classes available, you are behind any “straight” caster in terms of spells and likely not strong enough in melee to hold your own against a “straight” fighter. This is actually only partly true. This section will focus on classes to start with and why they are useful in construction of usable gish builds. Your core starting classes are exceptionally important, as they will be a key factor in determining the sort of gish your build will be best suited for.
Part One: The "Warrior"
Barbarian
The Barbarian is second to none in terms of outright damage possible. Numerous tests have proven this, Rage being a key factor in all of them. However, once multiclassing away from a Barbarian, a character will loose access to the greater rages that make the class so effective in combat. That said, why would anybody start with this sort of class only to multiclass away from it and dilute the Barbarian’s power? Two words: Rage Mage. The ability to rage extra times per day, cast spells at higher power while raging, and eventually gain Tireless Rage and Warrior Cry make this single prestige class amazingly strong when combined with the Barbarian class’s abilities. Depending on the focus a character spends on Rage Mage, multiclassing out of that isn’t a bad option either, as is discussed later in the Prestige Classes section. Combination Barbarian3/Wizard3/Rage Mage10/Eldritch Knight4 is remarkably powerful if the character focuses on buff spells, and this is simply one build (providing Base Attack +15, Tenser’s Transformation 1/day as a free action, Tireless Rage, and Wizard Caster Level 11, not to mention great starting HP).
Hexblade*
Hexblade is a powerful starting class, without a doubt from anybody who has seen it. High base attack and d10 for hit die, good Will, a good skill set, full weapon proficiencies and ability to use and cast light armor without Arcane Spell Failure (referred to as ASF) are just some of the goodies this class gets. Unlike other starting classes, multiclassing from the Hexblade is entirely unnecessary. The class is a stand-alone gish on its own, and multclassing away would only be to provide enhanced armor usage while casting spells (via Dragonslayer and Spellsword). However, as good a deal as this sounds for potential gish players, it must also be noted that the Hexblade’s spell selection (while greater then the Sorcerer’s) is limited to a low number per day and tops off at 4th level spells. Careful Hexblade players might look to multiclass a build similar to this: Hexblade5/Sorcerer3/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/Eldritch Knight10. This build provides a Base Attack of +18, Sorcerer Caster level of 14, access to 1st level Hexblade spells, no ASF from light armors (for Hexblade spells), and early-level Hexblade abilities. Hexblades are great for nongood characters who are careful builders and know what they want.
Fighter
This is perhaps the most self explanatory class in regards to beginning your gish build. The boost to your Fortitude save, bonus feats at both 1st and 2nd level, and the high base attack and hit dice make this very attractive to choose. Weapon proficiency is also key here, as many prestige classes (example: Eldritch Knight, Spellsword) require proficiency in all martial weapons and in the latter example all armor as well. Choosing Fighter as your base "warrior" half is a good start because the bonus feats, while limited at such low levels, are what will determine the build’s fighting style in the future of its level progression. If a player chooses Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, for example, this is a good setup to a ranged type of gish, either a light to middleweight martial gish or a simple spell-focused gish. Choosing Power Attack and Cleave would be good choices if one plans a middleweight or "tank"-type martial gish build who focuses on self-buffs and two-handed weapons.
Monk
Perhaps the least common of gish starting "warrior" classes is the Monk. This is attributed to the lower Base Attack, arguably the only downside to starting as a monk. Despite this one downside, the medium HP, full array of good saves, unarmed/unarmored combat ability, great skills, and bonus feats make the monk incredibly useful in gish builds, even if it might suffer a case of MAD (Multiple Attribute Distribution, the downfall of many potentially-good characters). Starting with 4 levels of Monk and multiclassing away to any primary arcane caster (will be referred to as PAC) or primary psionic "caster" (PPC?) would provide a solid basis for unarmed and unamored abilities, and with no real need for weapons a character can focus all of his or her resources into increasing their magic item arsenal to improved their ability scores and gather more wands/scrolls/etc. Monk4/Wizard or Sorcerer4/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/Eldritch Knight10 with Lightning Reflexes provides a solid character with incredible saves (+16/+10/+21, including Iron Will required for Dragonslayer), a +17 base attack bonus, moderate-low hp, very nice skills, unarmed combat ability (bonuses for being unarmored are minimal so this promotes wearing of light armor) and solid spellcasting ability with either Sorcerer or Wizard as a chosen PAC (Caster Level 15). While it typically takes a little longer to get into a gish-type prestige classes, the benefits in the end are usually well-worth it.
Ninja
Having recently been pointed at the Rokugan Ninja class, I’ve decided to add this to the list of fighter types. With its primary save being Reflex, this presents something of an assassin/roguish feel and a bonus to an often suffering saving throw. Sneak attack and Uncanny dodge are great, as is Speed of Darkness (adding Intelligence to Initiative rolls). The great skill selection and nice number of skill points available make tjos almost a rogue/fighter who would benefit greatly from the addition of a Psion or Wizard. The lack of armor proficiency can hurt, but a level of Dragonslayer can change that and for stealthy assassin or sniper builds the Ninja is a strong starting point. The best part about the class though is that it, while providing the sort of Dexterity/Intelligence oriented abilities and skills that it does, maintains a full Base Attack bonus even if it suffers from a much lower HD then normal (d6 rather then the usual d10 or even less common d8). Like the monk, this isn’t a class that can be returned to once multiclassed away from, but then again there shouldn’t be any need to run back to this class, neutralizing that as a downside.
Paladin
While many people dislike the strict code of conduct of Paladins, they are actually one of the better classes available to support the martial side of mage/warriors. High base attack and hit dice, immunity to fear at first level, full proficiencies with weapons and armor, and at 2nd level the ability to heal himself and others and add his Charisma bonus to saves make the an attractive choice for the gish's "warrior" at early levels. Paladin/Sorcerers are the best build for this, as it allows the high Charisma so important to the Sorcerer to buff the character’s saves with little to no effort at all while at the same time increasing the amount of healing the character can dish out. Although it is regrettable that once a player multiclasses away from Paladin they cannot return (without attonement anway), beginning the first levels as a Paladin will provide a strong backbone for the character as it leaves Paladin to progress its primary spellcaster levels.
Ranger
Many people see the Ranger’s smaller hit dice as a negative, but when it’s only an average of 1 hit point less per level and you gain the benefits of great skills and two good saves the tradeoff is more then made up for. Two levels provide a pair of bonus feats (Track and either Two-weapon Fighting or Rapid Shot), nice early-level boosts to Reflex, great skills in terms of skill points and available choices, and the high base attack so important in nearly all gish builds. Although a less-than-common choice, there are several prestige classes that actually work better if entered with levels of Ranger rather then Fighter or Paladin (Master of the Yuirwood, for example).
Samurai*
The Samurai is taken for a similar reason to the Fighter and the Paladin. The bonus feats at first and second level (first level being Exotic Weapon Proficiency for bastard sword, the second being Two-weapon Fighting) provide a built-in weapon style for Samurai-gish to work from if they’re willing to sacrifice a few more feats to enhance this double-weapon style. With full proficiencies (minus shield), high base attack, d10 for health, and free feats the Samurai is a good class for players who like honor-bound characters and still want effective martial ability for their gish builds.
Swashbuckler*
Again a similar case to the fighter, Swashbuckler is a much "lighter" sort of starting warrior class. High base attack and d10 hit dice, very good skills compared to other primary fighter types, and an emphasis on Intelligence-based combat make this an ideal build for high-Dexterity Wizards. Fortitude is the primary save here. This class is best left after 3rd level, as 4th level Swashbuckler provides nothing and the first three levels allow a free feat, intelligence to weapon damage, a small bonus to Reflex. The proficiency with all simple and martial weapons and light armor is always helpful, as even without acquiring any mage/warrior prestige classes. The Swashbuckler is arguably the best martial class for would-be Bladesingers.
*found in Complete Warrior
Part Two: The "Mage"
Psion
The term "spellcasting" is most commonly referring to arcane spellcaster, but some of the best gish builds, despite the limited prestige classes available, are actually psionic characters. Psions are a sort of a Sorcerer offshoot in that they "cast" without preparation and have and make some of the best "blasters". The bonus feat at 1st level is always helpful in meeting prestige class prerequisites or simply increasing the psion’s personal power. Metapsionic feats are superb for psions and the powers available to psionic characters are incredibly versatile. After finally having read thoroughly through my copy of Expanded Psionics, 3.5 psions no longer choose their primary manifesting ability score, but that makes them no less dangerous, only slightly less versatile. The sheer amount of augmented powers psionicists can bring to the table is amazing, as few other characters can belt out the sheer numbers psions can. Got a few extra powerpoints? Load up your energy burst and then empower it.
Psychic Warrior
Bonus feats aplenty, the Psychic Warrior is very powerful psychic gish starter. With medium base attack, it tends to not fall quite as far behind in BAB as the other primary casters/manifesters, even if it’s limited in the psionic power scope. Although only reaching 6 levels of psionic manifesting, these powers are nearly all combat oriented and all very useful. Wisdom is the key manifesting ability score, and while no extra power points are gained for high strength the increased DC and bonus to Will are pretty good tradeoffs. This build is excellent for multiclassing with other wisdom-based characters, such as Clerics, and I am working out a Cleric/Psychic Warrior/Mystic Theurge that should be pretty effective. With Fortitude as their good save, a d8 for hit die, and a decent skill list this class is excellent for martial gish of any kind, especially martial tanks, while at the same time providing just enough to be considered "mage" as well.
Sorcerer
The epitome of blaster, Sorcerers are arguably the best gish out there. The high volume of spells per day, regardless of how limited they are, allow for continuous spell support and spell-focused Sorcerer gish are literally walking artillery platforms. Their machine-gun nature allows for a war-based spell list that can easily outshine many other gish casters in combat simply due to the repetitiveness (for example, a Wizard can only cast so many dispel’s in a day before he runs out...). Martially-bent gish excel with the Sorcerer because of how many times they can cast Tenser’s transformation (or really any number of buff spells). The ability to cast use higher spell levels to keep casting many lower level spells is infinitely useful when trying to wear down a highly fortified (be it via HP, Armor, etc.) opponent. The biggest downside, however, is the utter lack of useful metamagic. Unless Arcane Preparation is acquired, it takes a full round to cast metamagic-ed spells (making Quicken Spell useless). Arcane Preparation allows spells to be prepared as Wizards for purposes of metamagic feats. With Charisma as a primary stat and few Charisma-based skills, however, as well as a lack of any bonus feats or class abilities, the Sorcerer alone can quickly fall behind its Wizard counterpart in terms of usefulness. Luckily that’s why multiclassing and prestige classing exists.
Wilder
While the Psion is an excellent class in regards to gish builds, the Wilder might be the more dangerous outright. Most Wilder players don’t particularly care to multiclass away, considering the benefits of the Wilder class at later levels, but gish Wilder are surprisingly effective. With the ability to boost their manifesting level (at the cost of potential psychic enervation) this functions as a sort of built in Practiced Spellcaster. The ability to Elude Touch (better avoid touch attacks) and surging euphoria make this a very attractive class for the "mage" part of a gish build. The low number of powers known but high number of power points (plus Charisma as a primary stat) make it a very good combination with Charisma-related fighter-type classes (paladin, samurai, swashbuckler) who can continuously manifest strong psionic powers. Metapsionics are great despite the Wilder’s lack of bonus feats.
Wizard
Wizards, while lacking the sheer number of available castings as their Sorcerer counterparts, have the huge advantage in that they can learn a limitless number of spells so long as their spellbook is protected and metamagic feats will not extend the casting time of their spells if they prepare the metamagic feats with the spells ahead of time. Two fewer spells per day for each spell level seems like a bad tradeoff, but not needing an extra feat to simply cast metamagic spells at their normal casting time is more then a little helpful. The bonus feats this class acquires is also very helpful, as is Scribe Scroll at level one (allowing the Wizard to make many spell scrolls and allowing for a self-made spell "battery" ). Item creation feats can make up for the lack of spellcasting volume very easily. Wizards also gain new spell levels one level earlier then the Sorcerer, making it easier to gain access to prestige classes. The use of Intelligence as a primary spellcasting stat make a Wizard’s iffy skill list seem much better indeed as you learn you can max out many of the skills.
[b]NOTE:[/b] Many of the prestige classes made for arcane casters (Dragonslayer, Eldritch Knight, etc.) can be almost literally translated into psionics with a few skill changes and name changes. Bladesingers and Spellswords require a little more work but are still easily doable. These adjustments are tricky only in the respect that psionics are not affected by ASF, so there will be some minor adjustments in the transitions to make it more balanced for psionic characters.
Prestige Classes
Prestige classes are the meat and bones to gish builds. There is no way a fighter-type10/mage-type10 can achieve the power of a simple Fighter2/Wizard4/Spellsword10/Eldritch Knight4. Therefore, this segment is for the various gish prestige classes available.
Bladesinger
Prerequisites: Elf or Half Elf, Base Attack Bonus +5, Balance 2 ranks, Concentration 4 ranks, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, Perform (sing) 2 ranks, Tumble 2 ranks, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Weapon Focus (longsword or rapier), Ability to cast 1st level arcane spells
[b]NOTE:[/b] I personally include Elven Lightblade and Elven Thinblade in the Weapon Focus category, as they fit the class perfectly.
Merits: Bladesong Style, Lesser/Greater Spellsong, Song of Celerity, 2 good saves, d8 hit die
Drawbacks: Odd levels do not progress spellcasting
Good levels to jump out after: Bladesingers have a unique spellcasting vs special ability progression. At every odd level, they increase spellcasting level, but with the exception of first level special abilities are only gained at even levels. First level is always good, as it allows a +4 dodge bonus when using a rapier or longsword (see above note) and nothing in the other hand and it also increases spellcasting level. After that, depending on what you want from the class will depend on what levels you go for. Lesser Spellsong isn’t worth shooting for, but Song of Celerity (4th) and Greater Spellsong (6th) are.
Good drop-levels: If you want to dip, only two levels of the class are necessary. This allows the above mentioned +4 dodge bonus and also the ability to cast defensively and take 10 on Concentration. After Greater Spellsong there isn’t really need to finish levels in the class, unless you really want Song of Fury (allows an extra attack).
Good lead ins: Swashbuckler3/Fighter1/Wizard2, Fighter4/Wizard2 or Sorcerer2
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Assassin*
Prerequisites: Alignment any evil, Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Must kill someone for no other reason than to become an assassin
Merits: Brief but effective spell list, good skills, sneak attack, (Improved) Uncanny dodge, Hide in Plain Sight, Reflex save as good save (unusual for gish), spells cast spontaneously and in light armor
Drawbacks: Medium Base Attack bonus, d6 hit die, spellcasting encourages light armor, self-contained spell list and progression
Good levels to jump out after: The assassin works excellent with Intelligence focused characters, especially caster-focused ones with an evil twist and a penchant for gift for killing. However, since the class has its own system of casting, it works best with at least 3 levels. You loose 1 BAB and 3 PCL (primary caster levels) in exchange for a few assassin-related spells and the ability to cast them in light armor. Level two provides Uncanny Dodge, which is nice for characters that don’t have it (as is the Improved version), poison use and death attack make good use of Intelligence, and sneak attack is perfect for invisibility junkies. 5th level, if you’re loosing a good bit of PCL and 2 BAB, but have even more spells and even more benefits of this class.
Good drop-levels: The assassin, with a small handful of other prestige classes, works best as a gish compliment/supplement with at least 5 levels or so. You suffer a -2 BAB loss up to level 8, which isn’t bad. Levels 9 and 10 really aren’t needed.
Good lead ins: Rogue3/Swashbuckler3 is great for more martial ones, as is Rogue1/Wizard4/Swashbuckler3 if you’re willing to wait and focus on Spellsword and Eldritch Knight after a few assassin levels to further/finish up Wizard.
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Dragonslayer
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +5, Dodge, Iron Will, Tumble 2 ranks
Merits: Fear immunity, energy resistance, Damage reduction, Full BAB, d8 HD, two high saves and a bonus to the class's weak save
Drawbacks: Every even level doesn't increase spellcasting, the biggest setback.
Good levels to jump out after: 1st level is good for a boost to Fortitude and Will and a +1 to Base Attack, immunity to fear, and a level of spellcasting. 5th level is good for full energy resistance 5 and another spell level, and 6th level is good for another point of damage reduction and for the free feat (Lightning Reflexes). If you're going to 9th level you have another spell level and another point of Damage Reduction tacked on, but you also may as well take the 10th level and gain energy resistance 10 and the ability to use true strike as a move action.
Good drop-levels: Any even level is a decent drop level, as you gain no real "benefits" and each even level delays your spellcasting progression. Levels 2, 4, and 8 are all useless, honestly. 6th level is alright, but neither greatly beneficial nor important simply because of its lack of spellcasting progression.
Good lead ins: Fighter2/Wizard4/Spellsword1, Paladin4/Sorcerer2. This PrC seems to be one to dip into later levels or shoot out for soon as possible and add on the extra spellcasting levels afterwards with Eldritch Knight or simply more Sorcerer levels.
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Eldritch Knight
Prerequisites: Profiency with all martial weapons, Able to cast 3rd-level spells
Merits: Full base attack bonus progression and one-level-from-full spell progression is nothing to scoff at.
Drawbacks: First level doesn’t increase spellcasting level and there are no class abilities to speak of. D6 for hit dice is sorta ew, but easily forgivable if a character is smart and takes feats like Improved Toughness and has self-buff spells/powers.
Good levels to jump out after: Really any level past 1st. Levels 2-10 provide full Base Attack increase and full spellcasting progression, so any level of this class is as useful to get to as any other. This makes the Eldritch Knight the perfect “filler” class, one designed to raise BAB and Spellcasting.
Good drop-levels: See above.
Good lead ins: Aiming straight for Eldritch Knight is not typically a sound choice in gish building, as other classes can be acquired earlier and provide more benefits (with the exception as a straight PAC (or psionic caster) with the Militia feat. This having been said, Eldritch Knight is good to “finish off” the 20-level progression, or take at odd levels when you just want a bonus feat (at first level) or an increase in spellcasting and base attack.
[b]NOTE:[/b] This, with the change of a few skills and words, this can easily translate into what I affectionately call “Cerebral Knight”, the psionic variant. Abilities are exactly the same, with the spellcasting progression replaced with psionic manifester progression.
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Elocater
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +3, Concentration 8 ranks, Mobility, Spring Attack, Able to manifest 1st-level powers
Merits: Two good saves, better manifesting progression then any Bladesinger or Spellblade equivalent, Scorn Earth, Dimension Step, Flanker, Dimension Spring Attack
Drawbacks: 2nd, 5th, and 8th levels do not progress manifester level, medium BAB, d6 hit dice
Good levels to jump out after: As a personal fan of elocaters, I've played with ideas involving them quite a bit. 4th level elocater presents +3 to manifester level and +3 to BAB, along with two good save boosts to Reflex and Will and five good and useful abilities promoting mobile combat. 7th level suffers slightly from the medium BAB and being 2 manifest levels behind a full manifester, but still provides even more bonuses. Rising to 10th level elocater puts you at +7 to manifester level and +7 to BAB, along with great saves and a series of amazingly mobile abilities (dimension spring attack and accelerated action are extremely useful and deadly in martially-bent psionic gish).
Good drop-levels: Levels 2, 5, and 8 are great to drop at. Opportunistic Strike is nice and all, but probably the least used of the elocater's abilities and at each level it increases in bonus the elocater skips a manifester level.
Good lead ins: Psychic Warrior5, Psion1/Monk4, Psion2/Ranger3, Swashbuckler3/Psion2, Wilder2/Barbarian3
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Fist of Zuoken*
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +4, Concentration 9 ranks, Wild Talent, Still Mind class feature
Merits: Stacks with monk levels for unarmed damage/unarmored speed/AC bonuses, two good saves, quick power-point gain, two bonus psionic feats.
Drawbacks: Medium Base Attack, d6, very limited power points and powers.
Good levels to jump out after: This is a very...unusual prestige class, even among similar ones that have their own stand-alone spell/power lists. The actual psionics of this class is fairly weak, but it's what it augments that makes this prestige class worth noting. A full monk with any number of levels in Fist of Zuoken is tough. However, he suffers from a lower Base Attack, making this a perfect candidate for a 4-level dip before running to Illithid Slayer or a similar class for BAB boosts.
Good drop-levels: Level 5 is when the second loss of BAB takes place, same with level 9, but otherwise there is really no difference between levels to get out. 5th and 9th are the best to drop at (4 levels of FoZ or 8 levels of FoZ).
Good lead ins: Fighter2/Monk5, Monk6, Psychic Warrior2/Monk4, any build is fine but at least 3 levels of monk are required.
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Havoc Mage (courtesy of Sang-Drax)
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +4, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells
Merits: Two high saves, d8 hit die, and Battlecast, which means that, by level 5, you may cast a 8th level or lower spell and make a single attack as a full round action.
Drawbacks: 3/4 BAB and 3/4 casting means you lose 2 points of BAB and 2 caster levels in 5 class levels.
Good levels to jump out after: Taking all 5 levels seems to be the best option. If you're a sorcerer Gish and you don't want to take lots of Spellsword levels, you might take 4 levels to qualify to Eldritch Knight, as in Fig2/Sor4/SS1/HM4/EK X.
Good drop-levels: Taking 2 levels means you lose 1 BAB and 1 CL and the trade off is being able to Battlecast 2nd level spells - so not worth it. By 4th level, you lose 1 BAB and 2 CL for the ability to Battlecast 4th level spells. And you're 1 level away from Battlecast 8th and +1 CL. If you want to take this class, take all 5 levels.
Good lead ins: Fighter2/Wizard4; Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1 to qualify to EK without taking more Spellsword levels.
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Illithid Slayer
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 4 ranks, Track, Must have a power point reserve of at least 1 power point, must have killed an illithid, either individually or as part of a group composed of no more then six members.
Merits: Full BAB, nigh-full manifesting level, Lucid Buffer, Cerebral Blind, Breach Power Resistance, Cerebral Immunity, Blast Feedback
Drawbacks: First level is essentially a dead level, unusual high save (Will)
Good levels to jump out after: Really, there are four main levels you want to go for in this prestige class. If only dipping, 3rd level for Lucid Buffer. If delving semi-deeply, 6th level provides permanent protection (requiring psionic focus) against detection by even the most powerful of spells and abilities. 9th level ups the ownage factor by providing Cerebral Immunity, essentially a permanent mind blank that works even against the biggest baddest spells/psionics for as long as you're psionically focused.
Good drop-levels: First level is the only real dead level in this prestige class, though 5th level similarly provides nothing except another point to Base Attack and add another level to manifester. 4th and 7th are good drop-points if you want the Slayer for dipping purposes, and the latter at least leaves you with an undetectable nature (even foils the biggest, baddest spells and psionics).
Good lead ins: Psychic Warrior6, Swashbuckler3/Psion2, Wilder4/Ranger1
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Iron Mind (courtesy of RadicalTaoist)
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +3, Heavy Arrmor Proficiency, Invest Armor, Concentration 8 ranks, Ability to manifest 1st level powers.
Merits: d10 Hit Die, only loses a manifester level at 1st and 6th, Armored Mind, Mind over Matter, -/x damage reduction while psionically focused in heavy armor, Mettle of Will, Barbed Mind at level 10
Drawbacks: Medium BAB. That's. About. It.
Good levels to jump out after: 5th, if you don't want to lose a 2nd manifester level. 5th grants you Mettle of Will (only applies to Will saves, sorry) which ain't half bad.
Good drop-levels: Really, every level of this class is pretty sick. D10 Hit Die??? 6th is the weakest level, with no manifester progression and granting another daily use of Mind over Matter (use your Will save in place of a Fortitude or Reflex save as an immediate action). Definitely a PrC worth going all out in, even though the 10th level ability Barbed Mind isn't stunning (good, mind you, but not stunning).
Good lead ins: Psywar5, Psion4/Fighter1, Psion3/Ftr2, also segues into PrCs like Warmind and Illithid Slayer (which grants heavy armor proficiency) very nicely.
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Master Harper (link)
Prerequisites: Any nonevil, Bluff 8 ranks, Diplomacy 8 ranks, Knowledge (local) 12 ranks, Perform 12 ranks, Sense Motive 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks, Alertness, Iron Will, Able to cast 2nd-level arcane or divine spells, Approval of the High Harpers or majority vote of any dozen master Harpers.
Merits: Two good saves, Full spellcasting progression, bonus feats
Drawbacks: d6 hit die and medium base attack bonus
Good levels to jump out after: 1st level is a good dip level, providing a bonus feat and the equivalent to bardic knowledge. 2nd level is good to get because it provides another free feat (an item creation feat). After that the only level truly worth shooting for is 5th, simply because you acquire another bonus feat and immunity to lycanthropy (as well as the ability to cure it).
Good drop-levels: If you are only dipping, any level after the first or second is good to leave at. The abilities are sorta weak for the HD of this type of class, even though full spellcasting AND medium BAB is not necessarily a bad thing. No levels are needed past 5th.
Good lead ins: Due to the steep prerequisites skills, this class is much harder to qualify for. Wizard3/Ranger5/Dragonslayer1 sets up nicely for it and provides a measure of safety, and similar Sorcerer builds (ie Sorcerer4/Ranger4/Dragonslayer1) work too. Since Iron Will is required by both, it's good to go ahead and grab Dodge to dip into both Dragonslayer and Master Harper for fear immunity and a couple bonus feats.
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Master of Yuirwood
Prerequisites: Elf or Half Elf, any nonevil, Knowledge (nature) 5 ranks, Survival 10 ranks, Alertness, Track, must qualify to select regional feats from Aglarond or the star elf region (Faerûn)
Merits: Full spellcasting progression, good skills (points and selection), Uncanny Dodge, pass without trace, Forest’s Grace, d8 for hit die
Drawbacks: Medium BAB increase, Faerûn-exclusive
Good levels to jump out after: 2nd level is almost a must. Since every level increases spellcasting, 2nd level also adds Uncanny Dodge to your list, and at 5th level Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Good drop-levels: Because of the Faerûn-exclusive abilities, anything past 5th level should be treated as completely optional. The slightly lower than full BAB and Work Menhir Circle abilities aren’t usually worth it, although Forest’s Grace (adds Charisma to saves) is very good to have.
Good lead ins: Ranger6/Sorcerer1 --- Since this prestige class has such steep skill requirements, levels of Rogue might be recommended to augment Ranger levels, although I suggest simply waiting until slightly later levels (9th-12th) to take up this PrC.
[b]NOTE:[/b] Since this is a very Faerûn-exclusive PrC, it isn’t encouraged to take unless a DM allows for this to be changed a little (replacing Work Menhir Circle ability with something else, for instance).
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Psychic Assassin (here)
Prerequisites: Any evil, Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Manifester Level 5th, the character must kill someone for no other reason than to become an assassin.
Merits: Great special abilities, primary save is unusual for gish PrCs, great skills and Intelligence synergy
Drawbacks: medium base attack, d6 hit die, manifester level progresses at +1 level at each even level
Good levels to jump out after: Any level is good to jump for. 4th level is good, as you have poison use, death attack, +2d6 sneak attack, +2 save against poison, and uncanny dodge. 8th level provides Hide in Plain Sight and has yet more sneak attack.
Good drop-levels: Really any odd level is alright to drop out at. The psionics doesn't increase on odd levels, but the only complication here is that odd levels tend to give some attractive benefits (Sneak Attack, uncanny dodge, special abilities). This is a "take what you want and leave" PrC, and is quite playable up to 10th level.
Good lead ins: Psychic Rogue5, Rogue1/Psion5, Swashbuckler3/Psychic Rogue5
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Psychic Weapon Master (here)
Prequisites: Base Attack Bonus +5, Ability to manifest a 3rd-level power, must have a crystal melee weapon, Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Psionic Dodge, Psionic Weapon, Weapon Focus, Weapon Proficiency (weapon of choice).
Merits: Full base attack bonus, d8 HD, decent skills per level (4 + int), only misses out on three manifester levels, bonded weapon, psionic damage, increased multiplier, power critical, psionic whirlwind
Drawbacks: must maintain a power point reserve of at least 11 to maintain maximum effectiveness, steep prerequisites
Good levels to jump out after: This is probably the worst prestige class to merely dip into. First level sucks, but is a good precursor to what happens later. The more levels you take in the class, the better the benefits. Since BAB does not suffer and manifesting barely suffers, all levels are good to go for. Increasing the multiplier of your weapon starting at second level makes it very attractive and power critical at 7th level augments this perfectly by increasing threat range. Psionic damage (maximizes weapon damage) is awesome as you gain more levels and can use it more often per day and first acquire it at first level.
Good drop-levels: The best level to drop at is after 5th. 5th level provides no increase in manifester level/power points and has a weak ability, not to mention no save increase. The other levels just bring too much benefits to ignore, especially with bonded weapon.
Good lead ins: Psychic Warrior7, Psion6/Fighter2
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Rage Mage
Prequisites: Any nonlawful, Base Attack Bonus +4, Combat Casting, Able to cast 2nd-level spells, Rage or Frenzy ability.
Merits: Spell rage, overcome spell failure, Spell fury, Tireless Rage, Warrior Cry, d8 HD
Drawbacks: Odd levels do not increase spellcasting, medium BAB increase
Good levels to jump out after: 2nd level is the perfect level to get to for simple dipping purposes, as a character will have spell rage 1/day and will be able to ignore 10% spell failure.
Good drop-levels: Depending on what the player wants, this is a tough decision. 4th and 6th level receive no benefits except save increases and increase in spellcasting level. Those are the only levels, however, that a character is not gaining an ability of some sort, be it more raging, more spell rage, or any of the other abilities. If dipping only two levels are necessary, as any more compromise increase of spellcasting level.
Good lead ins: Barbarian2/Sorcerer4, Barbarian3/Wizard3
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Raumathari Battlemage
Prequisites: Combat Casting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), any one metamagic feat, Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells and knowledge of at least four evocation spells, Able to read Roushoum and the Imaskari script, Proficient with all martial weapons, The character must find a mentor who already has levels in Raumathari battlemage and spend at least ten days studying in the mentor's company (during this time of study, both mentor and student must spend at least 8 hours a day in training).
Merits: Nearly complete spellcasting progression, sword focus, Channel Spell, Battle Spell
Drawbacks: low hit die (d4), medium base attack progression
Good levels to jump out after: Virtually every level in this prestige class is worth acquiring. From using the bastard sword as a focus for spells (replaces most material components, gains ability at 1st level), to channel spell (lesser form of Spellsword's channel; gained first at first level), to battle spell, which allows certain metamagic feats to be used X / day without increasing casting time or adjusting spell level, this class is exceptionally good at what it does. Except for the matter of LOW hit points. 3rd and 4th levels are excellent to go for for dipping purposes, for more extensive class-taking 6-10 are all good levels.
Good drop-levels: 5th level is the only real "dead" level of this prestige class, as it provides a weak ability and no progression of spellcasting. Furthermore, it slows down BAB progression by 1 more. If you're serious about this PrC, tough it out and move on, if you only want minor dipping then use 5th level as the dropout point and take only 4 levels of the Raumathari battlemage.
Good lead ins: (Militia) Sorcerer6, Fighter1/Wizard5
NOTE: This class is also very Faerûn-exclusive, but it is still very useful. Changing the prerequisites is the only necessary change needed, actually, and I should think this would be no problem for any DM.
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Sacred Exorcist
Prequisites: Alignment any good, Knowledge (the planes) 7 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 10 ranks, Able to cast dismissal or dispel evil. Adopting this prestige calss requires the sanction of a church or order that ordains sacred exorcists and only characters judged by their church to be exemplary in faith and devotion, strong of will and upright in morality, are made sacred exorcists.
Merits: Full spell progression, proficiency with all simple weapons, chosen foe (undead or evil outsiders), turn undead, Extra Turning, Consecrated presence, dispel evil.
Drawbacks: unusual good save (will), medium base attack bonus, somewhat steep knowledge prerequisites.
Good levels to jump out after: Perhaps the most devastatingly useful prestige class for sorcerers, 1st level alone makes this prestige class worth it by allowing a slight bonus against either undead or evil outsiders and, more importantly, the ability to turn undead as a cleric. Divine Might anyone? 4th level allows dispel evil, increases the bonus against the sacred exorcist's chosen foe, and the level before you gain Extra Turning. 5th level gives no bonus to saves OR Base Attack, but the increase of spellcasting an the gaining of Concetrated Presence makes all five of these levels worthwhile. Any levels taken after 5th are gravy, all useful but none absolutely necessary, either giving another Extra Turning, another dispel evil use, and a Chosen Foe bonus.
Good drop-levels: The only "prime" drop point of this prestige class is at 9th level, which gives you another Extra Turning (number three in fact) but on its own decreases again in base attack; most gish builds don't want to slow down their BAB progression too much. The rest of the PrC is simply too nice to ignore and any level's as good/bad as another to drop out.
Good lead ins: This is a later-gained prestige class, not something to aim for from first level. To help with the Knowledge requirements, though, Educated is a good feat to take (taken at 1st level only, makes all knowledge class skills, +1 bonus to knowledge checks with two particular knowledge areas). As long as you acquire dismissal (a useful spell anyway) and have the requisite skills this PrC is a sinch to get into mid-late levels (likely levels 10-16 is when the first level of this should be acquired, even if it's only a dip).
NOTE: Sacred exorcist is the second simplest class to convert into psionic use. A rule that psionic dismissal counts for the spell requisite and ruling "+1 level of existing class" includes psionics as well makes this perfect for a certainly flavorful character (psionic exorcists...hm...)
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Spellsword
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +4, Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Full armor and weapon proficiency, Able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells.
Merits: Ignore Arcane Spellfailure, Channel Spell (by far the best feature), Full BAB, d10 HD, two high saves
Drawbacks: Every even level doesn't increase spellcasting, the biggest setback.
Good levels to jump out after: 1st level provides a +1 to BAB, ability to ignore a little Arcane Spell Failure, a boost to Fortitude and Will, and a level of spellcasting. 5th level allows for even better armor-wearing ability and Channel spell rocks no matter how you look at it. 9th level spellswords allow you most of the class abilities, good BAB and saves, and of course you by now ignore most arcane spell failure (30%...adamantine full plate, anyone?). 10th level gives the shining gold of this PrC by allowing up to two channellings of spells, a truly devastating ability that gets more dangerous at high levels.
Good drop-levels: Any even level is a decent drop level, as you gain no real "benefits" and each even level delays your spellcasting progression.
Good lead ins: Fighter2/Wizard4, Paladin2/Sorcerer4
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Vassal of Bahamut
Prerequisites:
Merits: Full base attack bonus, d10, imperious aura, platinum armor, dragon senses, shared trove (lots of free money)
Drawbacks: doesn't progress any spellcasting but has own small divine spells,
Good levels to jump out after: Level 1 is the ONLY recommended level of this PrC. It gives platinum armor, which is simply awesome. However, 2nd level gives access to a divine spell, gives lots of platinum, and gives dragon senses. That said, for gish builds only one or at the most TWO levels are useful.
Good drop-levels: Any level after 2nd and including 2nd. A gish does not need to try and progress too much in a class that does not improve spellcasting ability.
Good lead ins: This is too difficult to determine, considering the steep BAB and the feat requirements. More than likely this will be taken at 10th level or so; any lawful good-BAB +7-vow taking-dragonslayer of reds can be a vassal.
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War Mind*
Prerequisites: Alignment any nonchaotic, Base Attack Bonus +3, Knowledge (history) 2 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 8 ranks, Must have a power point reserve of at least 1 power point, must have had some instruction by another war mind, have access to Talariic texts, or belong to an organization that has access to Talariic texts
Merits: Full base attack bonus, both Fort and Ref as good saves (highly unusual), very fast power point gaining, chain of personal superiority, enduring body, sweeping strike, chain of overwhelming force, d10 for HD
Drawbacks: Doesn’t further manifester level. That’s it.
Good levels to jump out after: All of them. The war mind is just one of those oddball prestige classes that on its own is amazing. A psionic character can get a LOT of mileage out of this prestige class without even having a primary manifesting class. Third level gives you chain of personal superiority +2 and chain of defensive posture +2 as well as damage reduction 1/-. 5th level gives you the awesome Sweeping Strike, and ever level after the previously named abilities just get tougher until at 10th level you gain the ability to make a single attack once per day that deals an extra 10d6 points of damage.
Good drop-levels: 4th level is the only level that doesn’t gain anything. After that, it’s all dependent on how much of this class you want.
Good lead ins: Psychic Warrior5 is the most obvious lead in, though Education and Fighter4/Monk1 also has some potential. This class has nasty tendency of trapping players who want their abilities better, and the full BAB progression makes this class’s only downside its lack of furthering another prior class’s manifesting levels.
*These prestige classes are unique because they have their own self-contained manifesting/spellcasting. They will hamper progression of primary manifesting/spellcasting, but tend to be worth it in the end due to the mutli-use nature of such a character. These are admittedly difficult to use, but should a character land levels in them they are typically better rounded at all levels rather than simply great in the end.
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Congratulations Sang-Drax for creating one of the best gish-types I've seen using the most creative/unusual combination classes/prestige classes.
Much thanks to everyone who helped in posting, suggestions, and continuation of this thread, and special thanks to JosephKell who started it all. Happy gaming folks.
Edit: Also, changing Sorcerer to Battlesorcerer in any gish build will allow you to keep the same caster level but increase your attack bonus.
This section will focus on the meat and bones of a gish, the feats. Despite classes, it is the feat choice that allows a gish to be what it is, even if the feats are only qualifying for a prestige class or the spells only chosen to survive lower levels.
Feats
There are many differing opinions as to what make gish so dangerous. A greatsword-wielding character with Power Attack, Arcane Strike, and Tenser's transformation cast is a very scary thing. However, a spiked chain tipping machine who is following up with Wail of the Banshee amidst his prone foes is just as scary. The main idea of feats for any character is personal augmentation, similar I suppose to buffing spells. Even if it's something as simple as Lightning Reflexes, there is always a benefit to feats, and for gish builds personal augmentation is extremely important. There are three categories of feats a gish can choose from: martial, qualifying, and caster-related. Martial is quite obvious. Such feats are designed for combat purposes without spell-slingin'. Qualifying/General feats are those taken to qualify for prestige classes that are also useful for a character to have anyway. Caster-related (or manifester-related) feats are those that enhance spellcasting in one way or another.
Martial Feats
- Arcane Strike: Arguably the best non-required feat, the bonus to attack and damage provided by channeling spells into arcane strikes is incredible. Channeling a simple first level spell can make up for not having Weapon Focus and provide that slight bit of extra damage. Later-leveled gish channeling later-level spells into arcane strikes are dealing notably more damage and hitting much more easily.
------ - Cleave: While its sucessive feat in the cleave tree is useless to a gish, the Cleave feat itself can find use against larger numbers of enemies the gish happens to find itself surrounded by. Combinations of feats to provide more damage increase the chance of a follow-up attack.
------ - Combat Expertise: A prerequisite for many trippers/disarmers, the feat itself is actually very useful. Sacrificing from attack rolls to add to AC can save your butt against hard-hitting enemies.
------ - Combat Reflexes: While not the most useful at first glance, if an enemy leaves themself open to a free attack, take it! Then take it again if you have high enough Dexterity. The ability to make multiple attacks of opportunity in a round should never be overlooked as useless, though this feat rarely finds itself into many gish builds simply because it is not needed by most characters.
------ - Dash: An extra 5 feet to movement in light or no armor (and with no more then a light load) is actually fairly useful. Monk or Barbarian gish, who already move quicker then normal, could take this as a feat if they have any extras and gain a slight edge in both positioning for combat and escaping from it.
------ - Defensive Strike: When combined with various other martial feats, the bonus to attack when an opponent misses you can lead to a pretty vicious counter. Casting a quickened spell and using Total Defense is a good way to ensure you gain this bonus, but the requirement of using a Total Defense action tends to cause players to shy away from this feat.
------ - Exotic Weapon Proficiency: While at first one would wonder how this is useful besides as a qualifying feat, the ability to use a bastard sword in one hand and a shield in the other makes this an attractive choice for characters who want their exotic weapon to be used single-handed while they employ a shield with the other arm.
------ - Greater Two-weapon Defense: If a character has the feats available to pull off two-weapon combat trees, this is a good defensive feat for them. The +3 to AC simply for having a weapon in either hand (or a double weapon) is far from terrible.
------ - Greater Two-weapon Fighting: As was said with Greater Two-weapon Defense, if a gish can spare the feats for a two-weapon-fighting tree, then go for it to its max. Six iterative attacks, seven at the latest of levels and with a close-to-max BAB, can be combined with all sorts of feats for truly devestating damage. Seven straight attacks, each with an arcane strike, can prove deadly to even the highest-hp enemies.
------ - Improved Combat Expertise: Identical to Combat Expertise with one BIG bonus: the only limit to what you can take off from attack to add to AC is your BAB. Ever-so-nice for high BAB gish builds.
------ - Improved Critical: Increasing the threat range of your weapons is never, ever, a bad thing. Critical hits are a gish character's chance to score extra damage with their martial weapons, leaving less enemies/hit points for their spells to compensate for and allowing a character to save spells for when they're most needed.
------ - Improved Disarm: Disarming an opponent and leaving them weaponless is an excellent way to fight. Dishonorable, sure, why not? The party's other fighters certainly won't complain.
------ - Improved Initiative: When using gish builds, speed counts. Even a fully-armored gish tank will enjoy the benefits of going first, even if it's only to move into a more favorable position. High Dexterity builds might be less inclined to take this, but the feat is useful regardless of who has it and is a qualifying feat for Reactive Counterspelling (GOOD feat).
------ - Improved Mounted Archery: If you've got the Concentration, a mount (perhaps via mount spell), and the prerequisite feats, this is an excellent choice. Attacking any time during your mount's move and with reduced penalties (no penalty for attacking with double move) is awesome for the most mobile gish builds (mounted gish, while rare, are exceedingly dangerous).
------ - Improved Rapid Shot: Rapid Shooting without penalty = nice for archery-focused gish builds.
------ - Improved Sunder: Sundering without attacks of opportunity is very nice, since the martial gish who focus on two-handed weapons have the ability to deal lots of damage and that lots of damage can very easily be directed at an enemy's sword or armor rather then their person.
------ - Improved Toughness: Friends don't let friends take Toughness, but this is quite the exception. A feat that actually scales with level (level for level, actually), this bonus to HP is incredibly useful, ESPECIALLY for low-hp gish builds.
------ - Improved Trip: Tripping enemies and a free attack afterwards is wonderful. Then forcing a foe to stand and provoke an attack of opportunity from others around him, likely the other fighter-types of a gish's party, and prone enemies are easy pickin's.
------ - Improved Two-weapon Defense: Slightly better then Two-weapon Defense, but the shield bonus to AC, as is the case with any gish build, can be a saving grace.
------ - Improved Two-weapon Fighting: As has been said, if a gish has the feats available, the TWF tree is dangerous later levels. This is simply another step along the way, providing the second iterative off-hand attack.
------ - Instantaneous Rage: 'nuff said.
Go Rage Mage.
------ - Karmic Strike: Surprise surprise... I doubt many DMs enjoy a character pulling this trick directly after they full attacked the enemy the round before. If it's against a foe a player KNOWS they will get hit by, then this feat + Combat Reflexes can be the balance to the enemy always hitting. The gish, afterall, gets an extra hit.
------ - Manyshot: Using only a standard action to fire multiple arrows can make an archer gish the party's best friend. With minimal effort a character can fire multiple arrows into enemies, and while I haven't checked how this would work yet I believe this can be combined with Ranged Disarm/Pin/Sunder for multiple attempts.
------ - Mounted Archery: Hm...Whenever I see this feat I think of - was it the Persians? - who would ride by in groups on horseback and shred armies with only shortbows. Mounted archer gish are a little (LOT) feat restrictive, but wow are they good. Extremely high mobility and with Improved Mounted Archery it's a built in, improved version of Shot on the Run.
------ - Mounted Combat: For mounted gish, your mount is relatively important. In fact, it's half the title "mounted gish". Keeping your mount alive by negating hits to it is useful, and so is this feat for qualifying for other moutned feats.
------ - Point Blank Shot: Useful as a qualifying feat and for the +1 to attack when within 30 feet, Point Blank Shot stacks well with Weapon Focus and a 1st level character, before every becoming gish, is that slight step ahead of his fellows in hitting enemies.
------ - Power Attack: Whew boy, is this a nice feat. Martial melee gish types of any kind need three things to become great: bull's strength + Tenser's transformation + Power Attack + two-handed weapon. A Strength 18 character with a greatsword taking 5 from attack and adding 10 to damage have damage that looks like this: 2d6+19. An average of 26 damage per hit. Taking from attack to add to damage when using a single-handed weapon is alright, but with double weapons it's incredible and the amount of damage with minimal effort required can become insane. Add the above ingrediants to Spirited Charge and let the good times roll.
------ - Precise Shot: No party likes their archer hitting them while they are in melee, so removing the hefty -4 penalty to attacking foes in melee with allies is excellent.
------ - Quick Draw: The ability to draw your weapon as a free action is invaluable when caught off guard. Simple feat, great benefit.
------ - Ranged Disarm: Slightly more useful then Ranged Sunder, this allows a gish to disarm his foe before his party ever closes to melee. If the party's already in melee, then the enemies being suddenly disarmed will result in many a thanks from your comrades.
------ - Ranged Pin: Pinning a foe to a nearby wall or tree makes them easy pickings for later. Archer gish can peck away at them with arrows and not worry about them moving away, and even if they do move away he can simply pin them again, then perhaps disarm them or sunder their weapon at range.
------ - Ranged Sunder: Sundering an enemy's weapon before you ever close to melee makes you the support gish in your party and usually forces a foe to improvise or chose less-specialized weapon.
------ - Rapid Shot: Using a full attack and recieving an extra attack is a nice thing, since this allows archer gish builds to essentially recieve 5 attacks as they reach +16 BAB and higher. Five bow shots is more then a little helpful, especially when combined with its greater version and Improved Mounted Archery.
------ - Ride-By Attack: Mounted melee gish find that remaining in melee simply isn't intelligent, and Ride-by Attack allows them to get in, hit, and get out without provoking an attack of opportunity.
------ - Shot on the Run: Archery gish can certainly benefit from being able to move, attack, and move, and since this doesn't limit the character to using a ranged weapon a wand with an attack spell would also be usable.
------ - Spirited Charge: Mounted combat gish, usually tanks, can always benefit from dealing twice the normal damage from mount-back (three times with a lance). Augmenting this with Arcane Strike and Improved Critical and a single mounted charge can lead to incredible amounts of damage being dealt.
------ - Trample: Regardless of whether or not you focus in ranged or melee mounted combat, allowing your mount itself to deal damage in Overrun attempts can spare spells and weapon usage. When combined with Ride-By Attack, rushing an enemy and overrunning them, only to move out of their reach after running them over, is a tactically sound move.
------ - Two-weapon Defense: Two-weapon Fighting characters with extra feats should invest in this tree, as the shield bonus to AC is always helpful (especially for lightly armored gish).
------ - Two-weapon Fighting: If a player is willing to put most of his feats into two-weapon fighting, he will have a machine-gun-meleeist and his feats will be well-spent. The Two-weapon Fighting tree is slightly tight feat-wise for gish, but allows them more martial power to supplement/be supported by their spells.
------ - Weapon Finesse: Any sort of lightly armored gish will find this useful if they have a high Dexterity and are fond of using lighter weapons.
------ - Weapon Focus: The extra +1 to attack with a particular weapon can really help any sort of fighting character, especially when dealing with multiple attacks or benefits that subtract from attack to add to something else.
Qualifying Feats
- Alertness: Several successful gish builds require very little in the way of feats, some needing only prerequisite feats for prestige classes. Alertness is a qualifying feat for at least one prestige class, but more importantly it provides the fighter/mage with a slight edge in Listen and Spot, skills likely to be cross class for most gish builds.
------ - Combat Casting: While not the greatest of feats, it still has its uses. Unfortunately 90% of that use is for qualifying for a prestige class. Skill Focus: Concentration provides a slightly smaller bonus but applies all the time instead of under certain conditions. Regardless, Combat Casting does provide a decent bonus under the right conditions and is a prerequisite feat for multiple gish-related prestige classes (i.e. Bladesinger, Rage Mage, etc.).
------ - Combat Expertise: One of the infinitely useful defensive martial feats, Combat Expertise is also a prerequisite feat for many other feats as well as prestige classes. It’s a safe feat to choose if a character has any extras they aren’t needing for anything else. Especially good for Dexterity-focused gish builds.
------ - Dodge: While a miniscule feat that has quickly diminishing returns as levels progress, Dodge is a prerequisite feat for many other feats and one of the more unusual, but nevertheless useful, prestige classes (dragonslayer).
------ - Endurance: Under the rare condition one is forced to hold their breath, a better feat can’t be found. However, until that condition occurs, this feat simply will sit and remain in most player’s feat lists strictly for purposes of qualifying for a couple other feats or prestige classes.
------ - Iron Will: As though their will wasn’t good enough, this feat seems almost redundant. However, it’s also a prerequisite for a certain dragonslayer prestige class players may wish to take, and a boost to any save is never to be ignored.
------ - Mobility: While easily discountable, this feat is actually a very good movement feat for psionic characters, finding more use with psychic gish then arcane ones. Elocaters, while barely gish by definition, make excellent use of this feat, as do other roguish gish. Mobility is also required by a couple arcane and psionic prestige classes, though they are all lightweight-types in nature.
------ - Point Blank Shot: Archer gish are dangerous enough with their martial and spell blend, and throwing in bonuses to attack and damage with so simple a feat of this just makes them all the better. Useful as a prerequisite to the entire list of archery feats and applicable to both spells and weapons, Point Blank Shot is a solid feat choice for any range-focused gish build.
------ - Track: Realistically there are only two gish subtypes that will ever employ Track as a feat: ranger/barbarian gish and any off-shoot of them who focuses on hunting of whatever. Track is primarily a prerequisite feat, as most characters won’t have a need for it.
------ - Weapon Focus: Prerequisite for a string of martial feats and more then a couple PrC’s of gish and nongish varieties, Weapon Focus is easily one of the most versatile combat feats. Like Point Blank Shot, it is applicable to spells and weapons alike, making it useful for more then simply qualifying for other feats and/or prestige classes.
Caster-Related Feats
- Arcane Preparation: Sorcerers and Hexblades (and the odd Bard gish) are really the only characters that can make use of Arcane Preparation, but this finally gives the ability to these characters to use Quicken Spell. Preparing several quickened spells, wizard or sorcerer gish can very easily pull off attacks and spells in the same round, multiple spells in the same round, among other combinations.
------ - Augment Summoning: For gish who prefer summoning minions to aid them in battle, few feats are more useful then Augment Summoning. It allows for considerably tougher summoned monsters without raising spell levels to cast such spells, and a +4 to two physical stats means these gish should be summoning often for flanking bonuses and/or ranged support (summoning Arrow Demons is arguably the best ranged support available).
------ - Craft Contingent Spell: One of the most useful item creation feats, this allows counter-spell gish and defensive-magic gish ultimate flexibility, wizards in particular (though sorcerers can certain benefits from this, too). Preparing a contingent bull’s strength set to activate when a bull’s strength spell cast on the bearer wears off can essentially keep physical power high, and this is simply one of many many uses for this feat.
------ - Craft Magic Weapons and Armor: Arguably the most common item creation feat chosen by gish, characters with this feat can essentially construct their own armories. Given enough downtime and in-between-adventuring for more exp, gish can make many powerfully enchanted armors and weapons for the entire party.
------ - Craft Rod: While uncommon, most rods tend to serve purposes that spells aid in their function but are not usable in any other way (rod of thunder and lightning, rod of the viper, etc). While still useful, the rods simply can’t seem to carry the same impact as wands or staffs, making Craft Rod an uncommon choice for gish.
------ - Craft Staff: More costly then wands, staffs typically serve as weapons as well as a means to provide wand-like services. Multiple spells draining a charge or two each (related spells such as fire spells, transmutation spells, etc) and a slight enhancement can make a staff especially dangerous in the hands of a gish, who are already more then simply proficient with weapons. In fact, Two-weapon Fighting gish who craft powerful staffs can easily make use of them as both weapons and spellcasting devices.
------ - Craft Wand: While Craft Magic Weapons and Armor may be the most common, many consider Craft Wand the most useful of item creation feats. Taking the time to create two or three wands can prove to be a savior in high-powered campaigns where slightly longer encounters and many of them in a day are common. For wizards, they provide a means to cast many utility spells (i.e. knock, grease, etc) or many attack spells (fireball, empowered magic missile, etc) repeatedly and still have a their prepared spells. Quick Draw is a good feat in combination with wand-use, as it provides a means to very quickly switch between multiple wands depending on the situation.
------ - Craft Wondrous Item: While most characters would prefer to focus their building efforts on armor, weapons, wands, and scrolls, Craft Wonderous Item allows a gish cheaper access to several items. Self-made items or those presented in various WotC sources, nearly all magical items will find use, seeing as how gish are already extremely versatile characters as it is. In large-scale battles, a portable hole containing a Thayan Bombard and multiple ammunition (Unapproachable East, pg 55) can prove invaluable. In stealthier campaigns, nondetection and invisibility imbued within an item can also be extremely useful.
------ - Empower Spell: Multiplying damage for a spell by 1.5 for only a +2 spell slot increase is amazing, making this feat for practicality worth far more then Maximize Spell. Wicked characters can prepare a quickened empowered magic missiles in case of emergency use, essentially dealing an average of 3.5 per missile, guaranteed (unless certain defensive spells are in place by enemies).
------ - Energy Admixture: A deadly spell no matter where it’s used, even a humble scorching ray becomes a fiendishly-wicked weapon in combat. Fireballs and other common offensive spells gain incredible potency, dealing double the normal damage on average despite not being able to tack on any other metamagic damage feats (such as Empower or Maximize Spell).
------ - Enlarge Spell: An uncommon feat in general, but unbeatable for sniper gish. Sniper gish are rare enough, but when they hit with a disintegrate from well over 300 feet away, or hit with a magic missle from just as far, long-range combatant gish gain new respect from their allies. This is more likely to be taken by archer gish then any other.
------ - Eschew Materials: Reliance on material components can be hampering, and this Feat for the most part takes care of that. It’s always good to not rely on finding bats poop and sulfur just to cast fireball, and as long as no gold cost is involved such minor material components can easily be ignored.
------ - Explosive Spell: Whew, easily forgettable in some obscure corner of Unapproachable East, but this feat is interesting. It increasing the spell level by +2, it allows for a simple fireball or whatever other evocation you can think of to move you enemies. Stuck on a cliff face with enemies rushing on a narrow ridge? An explosive lightning bolt can knock them all off. Trying to get an enemy into a pit? Hit them and their buddies with an explosive fireball and push them towards the pit.
------ - Extend Spell: An amazingly useful feat, Extending Spells allows for less spells per day (usually). Needing to cast less buffs in a day is always useful, letting a gish use their spell slots for other things.
------ - Forge Ring: Likely the least common of item creation feats, rings can be too costly in both gold and experience for most gish to want to spend. However, those willing to put forth the effort for a pair of extremely powerful rings find themselves benefiting greatly for enhanced abilities and/or protection at the cost of less-used item slots.
------ - Fortify Spell: Sort of a spontaneous Spell Penetration, that stacks with Spell Penetration as well, this feat allows for a slight push against foes that a gish might be experiencing problems with due to lack of caster levels. In fact, a combination of Fortify Spell, Practiced Spellcaster, and Spell Penetration can virtually ensure the spell affects a target.
------ - Greater Spell Focus: When combined with a selection of other caster-buffing feats, Greater Spell Focus can cause great jumps in power, very similar to Spell Power in usefulness.
------ - Greater Spell Penetration: Doubling the benefits of Spell Penetration, its greater version finds less use despite its great benefits.
------ - Heighten Spell: Raising the level of spells typically won’t find much use in high level spellcasting gish. But since many gish never want to or need to exceed 14 caster levels, Heighten Spell can raise the power of their spells to keep up with those higher-level casters, though since characters can’t use this to exceed their normal maximum that further hinders the usefulness of this particular metamagic feat.
------ - Improved Counterspell: Particularly useful for abjurer wizards, the ability to counterspell using any spell in the target spell’s school can prove more then a little useful. However, this feat’s main use is as a prerequisite for and augmentation of Reactive Counterspell.
------ - Improved Initiative: Speed kills. Any character knows this, and spellcasters who go first can literally mold and twist the battlefield into more favorable positions for themselves and their party. Going first is never overrated.
------ - Maximize Spell: For strict damage dealers with many spells per day available (namely sorcerers) maximizing the variable effects of spells can provide powerful weapons for even simple spells. Maximizing evocation spells like magic missile, fireball, and scorching ray for repeated use makes many enemies cringe at the sheer numbers involved (25 guaranteed damage for the first, 60 max-damage in a large area for the second, and 18 damage per ray for the third is nothing to scoff at).
------ - Persistent Spell: Spells that last all day are never weak. Especially buff spells. In subterranean campaigns, gish with this spell can provide spells to their comrades that last an entire day.
------ - Point Blank Shot: For ray-focused casters and gish, Point Blank Shot is surprisingly useful. Archer gish further benefit from its use in not only weapon use, but spell use as well, adding a slight bonus to attack rolls and damage.
------ - Practiced Spellcaster: Never, ever, ever underestimate lower-caster level gish, and this spell is why. Increasing the effective caster level by FOUR is amazing, allowing for considerable increases in damage variables, distance and area affected, and even overcoming spell resistance. Great all-around spellcaster feat.
------ - Quicken Spell: Casting a spell on the fly and as a free action is incredibly useful, even though sorcerers must take Arcane Preparation to benefit from Quicken Spell’s use. Many wizard gish have quickened spells as emergencies they keep on hand, and the feat alone regardless of who uses is allows for multiple spells cast per round. High payment in terms of spell slots raised, but very useful.
------ - Reactive Counterspell: Sorcerers in particular, though abjurer wizards also prove dangerous with this feat, can bring out the best in counterspelling in D&D. A free counterspell attempt each round and lots of spells per day mean no abjuration-focused caster can be underestimated, as enemy casters are very likely to have even their best spells countered just when they thought their foe had already used his full action to do other things.
------ - Scribe Scroll: Having several scrolls of various types prepared is always helpful. When a character finds his or her adventuring party stuck in a rapidly shrinking (trapped) room, a scroll of teleport may be the most useful item in the party’s arsenal.
------ - Silent Spell: Surprise surprise, the party is caught in a silence spell. This feat allows for a simple counter to one of the most simple anti-spellcasting spells and is especially useful when attempting to maintain stealth.
------ - Skill Focus: Be it in Concentration, Spellcraft, or whatever other spellcasting-related skill is necessary, Skill Focus is very useful to characters who simply don’t have the volume of skill points available by providing a small bonus enjoyable in all situations where that chosen skill is applied (Concentration being the most popular choice).
------ - Spell Focus: Especially good for characters limiting their spell list, Spell Focus can certainly buff up defensive/offensive spells, and when combined with Spell Penetration and Practiced Spellcaster, gish characters can almost be positive their spells will affect high-SR creatures such as drow and powerful enemy monks. Abjuration, Conjuration, Evocation, Necromancy, and Transmutation are the only schools necessary to be Focused in.
------ - Spell Mastery: Wizards of any kind who have lost their spellbook know the value of having or not having Spell Mastery. Those who did perhaps escaped to find their spellbook again, those who didn’t were royally screwed. It’s advised to have a single attack, a single defense, a single stealth, and a single transportation spell, simply to give wizard-casting gish more options if their precious spellbook is destroyed or stolen.
------ - Spell Penetration: Breaking SR is always annoying, especially against high SR creatures like dragons, drow (among others), is annoying. Spell penetration makes this easier, and that speaks for itself regarding usefulness.
------ - Spellcasting Prodigy: This feat is surprisingly valuable for players who don’t want their gish characters suffering from MAD (multiple attribute dependency). It allows them to focus less in their primary spellcasting ability score then they would otherwise normally have to, allowing for more resources to be spent increasing other abilities.
------ - Still Spell: Bound and gagged is the worst position for most spellcasters, but one with Still Spell can just as easily cast spells while bound as when not. Combined with Silent Spell, bound and gagged is no longer a problem.
------ - Transdimensional Spell: For characters who have ever dealt with (frequently) creatures lurking ethereal, this feat is perfect for any extras they may have. Raise the caster level one and a phase spider will get a big surprise when it finds itself slammed by an area affect spell. Not the greatest, grandest, most important spell, but still one that has some merit in multi-dimension campaigns.
------ - Twin Spell: Few things are worse for enemies then having TWO of that horribly damaging spell hit them at once, and Twin Spell is a powerful tool in the hands of intelligent gish. Twin empowered magic missiles, for example are good guaranteed damage in larger volumes then magic missile would normally allow.
------ - Weapon Focus: Taking this feat for ray type spells, especially those where Point Blank Shot is already in use, can make even the meekest of damage dealing rays more dangerous.
------ - Widen Spell: This feat, while less common then other metamagic feats, is excellent against large numbers of weaker opponents. Afterall, a fireball with twice the area of effect can certainly surprise intelligent enemies and simply scare less-intelligent ones.
.
Race: Dwarf
Ftr 1/Wiz 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Runecaster 2/Dragonslayer 1
BAB: +16
CL: 18
Arch slayer
Race:Human (requires:Militia)
Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10/DragonSlayer 1/Spellsword 1/Archmage 2
BAB: +16
CL: 19
If feats are the meat and bones of the gish, spells are the muscles that move them. They provide the filling in of gish builds and along with feats play a major role in determining what sort of combat your gish may specialize in. The following is a list of spells that gish builds of any type can find useful. Also, psionics are not included due to the primary focus of this thread being arcane casters, though a list is on its way eventually, likely in its own section. I will be adding more spells to this as I go.
1st-level Spells
- enlarge person-At early levels, a doubling of size means the decrease in AC due to both size increase and this spell's Dex decrease. However, the bonus to strength and increased weapon size (damage) and reach can easily make up for that, especially at later levels. By 6th level with a reach weapon this spell beings to soar in usefulness and can effectively keep enemies 20 feet away with a hard-hitting reach weapon.
- feather fall-Cast as a free action whenever you want, this can be perfect for daredevil gish who must deal with heights or steep cliffs or anything of the sort. Reducing falling damage to zero with a free action is more then a little useful, even if it has very little combat use except against flying monsters.
- mage armor-A 1 hour/level +4 armor bonus to AC is great. Free armor at first level, free of charge, without any ASF or armor check penalty. It also protects against incorporeal creatures. This spell, though, does -not- stack with any other armor bonuses.
- magic missile-I shouldn't need to explain it. Magic missile is the best 1st level attack spell, guarenteed damage. At later levels, the low level of this spell makes it easily usable with metamagic feats like Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, even Twin Spell. Adding all three, in fact, allows for twice as many missiles dealing 7 damage each (7 x 10 = 70). Although subject to spell resistance and anti-force effects like shield this is still a very strong choice of spells.
- mount-A free horse is nothing to scoff at. Especially early level cavalry gish. Meaning a Fighter1/Sorcerer1 doesn't need to buy a horse, just use this spell. Even for non cavalry-based gish, this is a great spell for escapes.
- ray of enfeeblement-A ranged touch attack that drops enemy Strength score is great at early levels and with the addition of Empower and Twin Spell can cause havoc at later levels, too.
- shield-The bane of magic missile, this also provides a +4 shield bonus (which stacks with mage armor, by the way). Like the other 1st level defensive spell, this also applies to incorporeal touches, basically at low levels providing a +8 AC bonus that works against anything.
- sleep-Effectively the "1st-level death spell", [i]sleep is dangerous at early levels, even though past 5th level it becomes dead weight. It's great for groups of weaker creatures, with a 10-ft burst and all, and leaves enemies awaiting the party's warrior types to attack with coup de grace 's.
- true strike-A free +20 insight bonus to attack. 'Nuff said.
2nd-level Spells
- bear’s endurance-Free hit points and a boost to Fortitude. Simple spell, great benefits earlier levels before the gish can acquire any enhancement-bonus items.
- blur-A 20% miss chance at 4th level is crucial, and even at later levels it's useful to have as a backup alternative to the higher level (but more useful) displacement.
- bull’s strength-A +4 to Strength equates to a +2 to attack and damage, which for martial melee gish is very important. As with similar transmutation affects it becomes redundant at later levels when items are acquired but it's still always good to have at early levels.
- cat’s grace-The free +4 enhancement to Dexterity make it a useful spell when in combat against foes who use area-affect evocation spells (to help with Reflex save) or in cases where a gish wants a better chance to go first and with higher AC.
- Melf’s acid arrow-Although it doesn't do much in the damage department, a couple feats could change that. It requires a ranged touch attack and has lingering effects, which against enemy spellcasters is great. Oh, and it ignores spell resistance. Nice.
- mirror image-Gah, I personally love this spell. A whole bunch of images of an armor-wearing spellcaster can be formidable at lower-mid levels, and even at higher levels the spell has use.
- scorching ray-This is (IMO) the best low-level offensive spell. Ever. Empower blends wonderfully at early-mid levels and even at later levels other feats such as Energy Admixture and Twin Spell work beautifully. Several ranged touch attacks for good damage makes this a strong choice for ranged gish.
3rd-level Spells
- dispel magic-There is very little downside to counterspelling an enemy spell. Nor is there a downside to nailing a large area with previously-buffed enemies and destroying all those rounds of preparation. When coupled with Reactive Counterspell, abjurerers and sorcerers can seriously wreak havoc with this spell.
- displacement-50% concealment when in all-out melee combat is a beautiful thing. Makes gish not only hard to hit, but forces enemies to expend resources to try to dispel the effect.
- haste-An extra attack on full-attack actions and a bonus to attack, AC and Reflex saves, and a +30 foot increase to speed is all anyone needs to hear. High speed gish MUST have this spell, and all martial gish become exceptionally more dangerous. Less martial-inclined gish tend to need it less.
- heroism-With a pretty long effect (10 min/level) and a +2 morale bonus to attacks, saves, and skill checks, heroism can always find use in any gish build, caster, balanced, or martial.
- rage-Barbarian rage (to a lesser extent) minus the fatigue, sounds like a good deal to me. Early level anyway, but at later levels when enhancement bonuses don’t stack with one another this is pretty nice.
- slow-Oooo...such a nice spell. Target someone at close range and they’re suddenly slowed to a single move action or standard action per round. Half their normal speed and penalties to attacks, AC and reflex, and all that from a drop of molasses. ;) Good on any gish list.
- vampiric touch-A great offensive spell that only gets stronger as the gish does, especially once metamagic is introduced. You gain temporary hit points equal to the 1d6 per level (10d6 max) you can deal and all from a melee touch attack. This is not only nice for every gish type, it’s useful for ‘em all.
- wind wall-A shapeable wall that protects against arrows, gases, and similar things is very useful, but this is a highly campaign-dependent spell. It’s appropriate for gish only if they need it on at least a semi-regular basis.
4th-level Spells
- fire shield-A great passive offensive spell and primary defensive spell, resistance to either fire or ice and the chance to negate either altogether make up for half of a very good spell. The other half comes when enemies strike you and are dealt 1d6 + 1/level (max 15) damage of either cold or fire. Melee gish had better have a good reason for not adding this to their 4th-level repertoire.
- greater invisibility-Attacking and staying invisible is not only great for any gish, but powerful for assassin and roguish gish. Very simple spell and very effective.
- phantasmal killer-A GREAT death spell considering it’s available by 7th or 8th level. Save or die, Will save mind you, will kill almost any fighter type. Even if it’s successful, free 3d6 damage is nice.
- polymorph-This is the spell to whistle at. A gish with this can easily turn themself into any number of enormously powerful creatures, including war trolls, dragons, firbolgs, the list goes on. The gish gains the physical traits of the creature, plus extraordinary abilities, and keeps the character’s mental traits. Spellcasting giants tend to raise eyebrows...
- stroneskin-An extremely versatile and useful spell, damage reduction 10/adamantine is impressive. It lasts for a long time and is wonderfully useful to any build as a defensive spell.
5th-level Spells
- cloudkill-A wonderful spell against "entrenched" (that is to say well fortified) enemies, the movable/shapable cloud kills weaker creatures and deals Constitution damage to creatures that make their saves or are stronger. Per round.
- cone of cold-Cone spells aren't typically favored unless by front-line gish with access to quickened spells and/or Channel Spell, but up to 15d6 cold damage can't be ignored (especially when metamagic is thrown in).
- draconic might-A free +5 enhancement to Str, Con, and Cha make this a great martial/sorcerer spell to have, even better if polymorph can be used either right before or after.
- draconic polymorph-Hm...polymorph with a BIG bonus to Strength and another bonus to Constitution with a 20 HD max to what you can turn into. Did I mention how nice war trolls were to use...or dragons...?
- feeblemind-A good follow-up spell to mind fog, dropping a spellcaster’s ability scores (Int/Cha) to 1 can be a great way to protect yourself from a good number of potent enemy spellcasters.
- mind fog-Affecting a large area and potentially dropping all of their will saves -10 is great for cramped-quarter combat where an enemy is pinned down and the gish needs to force them to either flee or pursue.
- telekinesis-The various abilities of this may seem a little off in gish builds at first, but the ability to bull rush/disarm/trip from a very long distance, lift a heavy object and keep it up, or violently thrust with it, this a can easily provide gish with a useful spell to move yourself and others and at the same time it remains ready for combat maneuvers.
- teleport-One of many, mobility spells of any kind will always be useful to move people and equipment to and from places. Instantly.
- wall of force-An indestructible wall, invisible mind you, is never useless. Difficult to get rid of to say the least and susceptible only to magic and epic rogues. This is arguable the best spell a gish on the move can have because until 12th level enemies likely won’t have the resources to get around it. Even after that, most creatures you fight can’t get around it, and boxing in a particularly strong monster and cloudkilling it is a great strategy.
- waves of fatigue-Great when the gish is at the front of a group and perfect against far off or many enemies. Making a bunch of foes fatigued is a beautiful thing, especially since it has no save.
6th-level Spells
- acid fog-A solid fog but better, trapping enemies in this is a great way to deal damage. Boxing them in with wall spells is even sweeter, but otherwise the spell itself makes it harder for escape (and slower) and makes an enemy more subject to the acid damage dealt by the fog.
- chain lightning-Even btter then lightning bolt, there is a good reason this spell is twice the spell level of its smaller cousin. the increased damage cap (from 10d6 to this spell's 20d6 max) and ability to arc off and strike other targets makes it amazingly useful, even if only used to target a couple enemies. Annoying focus, but not difficult to acquire.
- circle of death-The sheer number of HD worth of creatures subject to this spell makes it perfect against MANY weaker creatures a character doesn't want to waste their time with and affects a HUGE area. Slightly expensive material component considering how little this spell will likely be used though.
- disintegrate-2d6 per caster level, to a max of 40d6. Ouch. Ranged touch attack to hit. I'm not seeing a downside to this spell. It destroys virtually ALL things standing in its way with only a few magical exceptions, and targets dropped to 0 hit points are utterly destroyed and leave a nice trail of dust. What a visual affect. Even those who make their saves take damage, which makes this even cooler to use with Empower Spell...
- greater heroism-With double the normal spell’s bonuses, immunity to fear, and temporary HP this spell far surpasses heroism in usefulness.
- prismatic eye-A great conjuration spell, the fact that this can be used as a free action once per turn is great. I actually consider it in many cases more useful than prismatic spray because it lasts longer and is more controllable, as well as having a higher potential damage index.
- Tenser’s transformation-A better spell for gish with fewer items, this is best served as an emergency spell, a contingency if you will. And works well with contingency, too. The bonuses to Strength and Dexterity, natural armor, Will saves, and the bonus hit points are all great additions to the primary ability of the spell, which increases the base attack bonus greatly and can make even the meekest caster a martial warrior.
- wall of iron-The wall itself is a good barrier, and if you research it instead of just learning it you can probably alter it to be horizontal...appearing midair...can you say splat? Otherwise, not the greatest of spells, but still useful for primarily defensive gish.
7th-level Spells
- finger of death-Finger of death is useful for necromancy-based gish (one of the scarier kinds) and can be very deadly and useful for use against many slightly less powerful enemies, though BBEG types tend to be immune or close to it.
- Mordenkainent’s sword-While normally this spell isn’t a good idea, using the Psionics/Magic Transparency idea (the normal idea, not even a variant) a feat or item can be easily made to hold a gish’s Concentration so he can still fight.
- prismatic spray-Ooo...did someone say channel spell? Prismatic spray is one of the deadliest offensive spells out there because it’s almost impossible to defend against. Fire, cold, acid, electricity, petrification, insanity, the effects are completely random.
- spell turning-Turning an enemy’s spell(s) back at them is just sweet. That magic missile? Let ‘em maximize and empower it and then send it back at them. Bestow Curse? Bring it. All around good defense spell for this level.
- waves of exhaustion-The greater version of waves of fatigue, this provides a larger cone, meaning more potential enemies or more usable from a greater distance, and is more dangerous against groups of minions from a BBEG or somesuch. Good spell when used correctly, though with the exception of prismatic spray gish tend not to like cone spells as much due to their allies potentially being in the way. Exhausting your buddies is likely to get your gish killed, specially since it still affords no save (though then you can see how well a gish works against a party...see individual tactics in the following post.:D).
8th-level Spells
- incendiary cloud-A sort of enhanced version of cloudkill, this is similar in that it can be moved the same way, though concentrating can make it move even quicker. 4d6 damage per round is nice, and likely only very Dexterous characters will be making their saves for half damage. This is particularly deadly against enemy spellcasters.
- greater prying eyes-The ability to summon mini scouts with true seeing is very useful. By the time a gish is able to cast 8th level spells anyway, simply barging into a fight becomes a much less intelligent idea, thus proper scouting/reconnaissance is wonderful.
- horrid wilting-with such long range and large in area of affect, this is a great surprise spell for gish to initiate combat with at a distance against living foes. Against undead creatures this does nothing and against water elementals and plants this spell does even more.
- mind blank-Protecting one’s self from all mind affecting and reading affects is wonderfully useful. With greater invisibility, nondetection, and mind blank gish can be undetectable by nearly all means even after they attack.
- polar ray-A simple ranged touch attack dealing up to 25d6 worth of cold damage. Nothing fancy or flashy, just outright damage. Aggressive gish find this spell very useful, especially against high AC enemies (which typically have lower Touch AC).
9th-level Spells
- meteor swarm-A powerful offensive spell, nailing large numbers of foes or simply a couple powerful enemies at a distance can ruin their day and if the gish’s party is prepared and immune to fire even point-blank castings can be brutal.
- Mordenkainen’s disjunction-Against DMs who enjoy throwing powerful NPC enemies at their players, this is probably the most frustrating spell a gish can know. Destroying magical items and effects within the burst radius can be simply vicious against item-dependant enemies.
- shapechange-With a 10 minute per level duration, this spell is amazingly powerful. Spending combat in the form of a red wyrm, then next round shifting (as a free action) into a solar, your weapons are seemingly limitless. With no disorientation, the only downside do this spell is the user’s items are separated from them. Worth the price to pay since you can turn into a balor every other round and gain a free sword.
- Simbul’s Spell Trigger-Allowing up to four spells (max 7th level) to be quickened without the need for a feat is beautiful, simply beautiful. Allowing up to four spells up of up to 4th level to be cast simultaneously is just deadly. This is a favorite of spell-focused defensive gish, for it allows multiple dispels to be prepared in advance, and when combined with a sorcerer and Reactive Counterspell virtually no spell will get to the party without at least an attempted counterspell.
- time stop-Arguably the most powerful spell even well into epic levels, a gish with access to 9th level spells can never go wrong choosing this as their first spell, even with its 3.5 Edition weakening. 1d4+1 rounds to freely buff, prep delayed blast fireballs, and move around can make gish extremely dangerous since the only creature affected is the gish itself (thus, no saves).
- wail of the banshee- hehe, Pure evil. If your gish has the ability to cast 9th level spells and doesn’t get Simbul’s Spell Trigger from Magic of Faerun, this is a great spell. If you’re like me and always end up surrounded by enemies, anyway. Kills things, that simple, and with a jacked up DC from various sources this can be a hard Fortitude save to make.
- weird-Pretty much a phantasmal killer on steroids. Failing leaves ‘em helpless for a buffed up coup de grace. If they fail...well...then you won’t need to worry about wasting a coup de grace now will you? Powerful spell, in many cases stronger then wail of the banshee because of the aftereffects assuming they make their saves.
Much thanks to JosephKell, handforged, Radical Taoist, Sang-Drax. SoulLord, and everyone else who helped in the creation and contribution of ideas of this thread.
Oh, and congratulations Sang-Drax for creating the best gish using most creative/unusual combination classes and prestige classes. here or pg 5 bottom
Gish, like the races that become them and the players that play them, come in all manner of forms. This somewhat-shorter section will detail with the major aspect regarding the types of gish: the subtypes.
The Subtypes
Although at surface level it is difficult to see how there can be much variation in gish builds, closer look makes one wonder at the possibilities that even a single class difference can provide. As such, this section will focus on the main types of gish and will include as much as possible about them. While this is by no means a hard, steadfast rule, remember that "gish" isn't even a human term and there won't be any hard fast rules, just reliable guidelines.
The Archer: Light martial OR spell focused gish, archer gish focus on bow art and ranged touch spells. Arcane archers have nothing on dedicated archer gish, as most arcane archers won't be able to launch a full ranged bow attack employing Improved Rapid Shot and Improved Mounted Archery and the next round cast an empowered scorching ray or magic missile. This build focuses on any sort of armor preference, almost exclusively archer-focused feats, spell selection emphasizing on enhancing own mobility, decreasing enemy mobility, and on ranged touch spells, and for ability scores a lower Strength and high Dexterity, and a high primary spellcasting attribute. Almost none of the feats in this build should be for non-archer benefits, as a focused spell-supported archer gish is fearsome enough without specializing too much, and emphasizing the archery makes him simply lethal.
Assassin/Sniper: Assassin gish focus on extreme Intelligence scores, light armor, and high Dexterity to save them when in trouble. Optimal classes for this are innately Swashbuckler and Wizard. Though lower on the Base Attack and Caster Level scale compared to many gish, their spell selection and natural stealth (and likely adding Intelligence to damage) make them deadly adversaries, as they can easily hit and disappear with a strike and a spell. High Dexterity and Intelligence, light armor, emphasize stealth spells and weapon should be light (preferably rapier, longsword, etc). Enlarge spell and magic missile work well, as do true strike and a sneak attack from several range increments away, and both lend credit to the title "sniper".
Balanced: With a Caster Level and BAB just about the same, they are good at both without being the best at either. Focus on medium to heavy armor that allows for Dexterity, as this has the most flexible ability scores (High primary caster stat and one other physical stat of character's choice). High Strength types should focus on melee oriented spells and feats, high Dexterity types should focus on archery and ranged support, and high Constitution types can alternate between the two while not excelling at either. This sort of build plays the blending game and should have lots of buff and lots of synergetic spells to compliment the primary caster's spells and the primary meleeist's abilities. Support means support, not cast yourself exclusively into one set position, so these builds should be adaptable and canny.
Caster: These gish builds are ones that focus almost exclusively on spellcasting with martial prowess the secondary focus. Typically netting a Base Attack Bonus of +15 or +16 at the most, their caster levels are nigh perfect: 18th or 19th level. There are several classes that make caster gish more dangerous, such as dips into spellsword for the small amount of ignore ASF, runesmith, 2nd-level Geomancer, among others. These provide armor usage and still nearly full spellcasting, which is the primary focus after all. In contrast to other gish builds, Casters focus on spell-oriented feats and very few (if any) martial feats (Improved Toughness is recommended for the needed HP bonus). While some argue +15 BAB is not “gish-worthy”, heads tend to turn quickly at the sight of an character using Archmage special abilities in full plate with a greatsword in hand and a Tenser’s transformation at the tip of his tongue. Similar sentiments are shared at the sight of lv9 Arcane Strikes, Spellfires, and other powerful abilities.
Cavalry: Like the archer, Cavalry gish have no need for non-martial feats. Focus them into whatever mounted category you enjoy best (or both if you’re careful with ability scores) and you can have a mounted gish using Deadly Charge channeling a spell through his lance one round and turning around for a Ranged Sunder the next, then again wheeling around for a blast of spell. Dexterity is of slight concern, only for ranged attack purposes, and Strength and the primary spellcasting attribute should be top priorities. The sheer damage a cavalier/arcane strike combination can deal is mind boggling, and all the while this build can stay out of the main fray if its low on life and use superior maneuverability to come to the party’s aid and retreat again. Armor should be fairly heavy (at least medium armor) and mithral heavy armor is recommended if funds allow for it. Most spells should be (like the archer) ranged touch spells and self buff spells, no other spells are really needed (don’t bother with utility spells as a party’s primary caster can take care of that).
Juggernaut: Gish who self-style themselves as the “combat tanks” of gish kind I affectionately call juggernauts. When a character can wear plate mail, Power Attack with a full blade, and support himself with a well-timed polymorph or greater heroism, all the while channeling spell after spell through his weapon, that becomes one of the most fearsome sighs on a battlefield. While not limited to armor wearers (rage mage’s can easily qualify as “juggernaut” class), these armor-wearers are the most effective as it presents one less ability score to focus resources into. Strength and their primary casting stat are priorities, Constitution following the lead close behind. Feats are largely dependent on the player’s style of combat, and should be focused (with the exception of two or three feats) exclusively on combat. Arcane Strike, Improved Toughness, and Practiced Spellcaster are a great trio of feats for these sort of builds. Juggernaut gish should be at the spearhead of any combat, where the maximum number of foes are subject to his spell-augmented wrath. Chain lightning becomes wicked to use point blank, and if all else fails wizard-juggernauts can focus spells they don’t need into Channel Spell.
Light-Mid Melee Support: The best examples I can think of off hand for light-to-mid-melee support are the Master of Whips (post #104) and Bladesinger (post #68). Light-Mid Melee support are builds that, while excelling in melee combat as much as the next martial gish, are typically in light armor (or close to it), are Dexterity-oriented in terms of skills and feats, and have a spell list designed to augment these abilities. Light-Mid Melee supporters are not designed to be impressive damage dealers, simply able to survive and do well in melee while casting off spells, dancing around their enemies, and casting some more. The whip and chain/spiked chain builds especially show the support nature of this category of gish, as foes who are both disarmed and tripped are sitting ducks for the rest of the party’s meleeists. This is not a build that should ever be caught alone anywhere, though if he is the higher Base Attack Bonus and largely useful spell selection should make it more then just survivable despite its lack of heavy armor and large amounts of HP.
Triple- and Quadruple-Threat: These gish are arguably the hardest to make. Combining the aspects of at least three character archtypes, the most common blend is that of manifesting/spellcasting and martial prowess. Two levels of Cerebremancer, Mystic Theurge, or Psychic Theurge can help enhance two different types of “casting” while providing +1 to BAB (despite the low HD). An example of a quadruple threat is that of an ex-paladin human paragon1/blackguard6/assassin9/arcane trickster4. With both martial prowess (BAB +15 and great hit die), nigh-full blackguard and full assassin spellcasting (10 arcane CLs, 9 divine CLs), and considerable stealth ability and skills, this is a strong quad-threat build. These sorts of builds tend to suffer from MAD, meaning balanced ability scores are a primary goal with one or two a cut above the others. Feats also tend to be spread thin, but good ones to have are Practiced Spellcaster and mostly martial or noncaster-related feats, since CL is typically lower in this sub-class of gish. Otherwise, skill choice and combat vary widely depending on the type of build this is, though few triple threats can stand in open toe-to-toe combat with more martially focused character (or gish).
NOTE: If anybody has any additional information to be added to these gish subtypes or have any other subtypes (excluding special cases where there are only one of the class, such as Sang Drax's blackguard/nar demonbinder) then please make sure to let me know so I can add them.
Furthermore, I apologize as my links seem to not be working at the moment...
1. Copy all of the builds to your original post and use the format you have come up with.
2. Add a requirements(feats, skills, etc.) and a books used section to each build to make it that much easier to figure out what is going on.
3. Copy all of the builds from the Old JosephKell page with credits, maybe listed with a different color heading, to make this the most complete catalog of Gish builds.
4. Link to the old thread in order to completely credit those authors and allow full perusal of the enhanced build structure and tactical comments.
~hf
edit: sorry I missed your reply, I will be willing to help you build the formatting for the new library for the first post.
Paladin 2/Battle Sorceror 8/Dragon Slayer 1/Spellsword 1/Sacred Exorcist 8
BAB: +16
Caster Level: 18 (9th level Sor spells)
Saves: +11/+4/+16
Special: Familiar, Divine Grace, Aura of Courage, Ignore 10% ASF, Exorcism Domain, Turn Undead, Consecrated Presence, Chosen Foe, Dispel Evil, etc.
Requirements: Knowledge(planes) 10, Knowledge(religion) 7, Knowledge(arcana) 6, Tumble 2 Able to cast dispel evil or dismissal and 2nd level arcane spells, Iron Will, Dodge, all Armor Proficiencies, BAB +5
Books: Unearthed Arcana, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Draconomicon
I developed this build as a non-OA version of LordShade's Witch Hunter Build below:
Lord Shade's Witch Hunter
Battle Sorceror 7/Witch Hunter 2/Spellsword 3/Sacred Exorcist 8
BAB: +16
Caster Level: 18 (9th level Sor spells)
Saves: +10/+5/+17
Special: Familiar, Smite evil, Kami's Grace, Detect Evil, Ignore 15% ASF, Bonus Feat, Exorcism Domain, Turn Undead, Consecrated Presence, Chosen Foe, Dispel Evil, etc.
Requirements: Knowledge(planes) 10, Knowledge(religion) 7, Knowledge(arcana) 10, Track, Able to cast dispel evil or dismissal and Magic circle against evil and 2nd level arcane spells, all Armor Proficiencies, BAB +4
Books: Unearthed Arcana, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Oriental Adventures
Fighter 1/Wiz 3/Elf Paragon 3/Arcane Archer 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10
BAB: +18
Caster Level: 15 (8th level Wiz spells)
Saves: +16/+10/+9
Special: Familiar, Scribe Scroll, Fighter Feat, Elfsight, resist enchantments, Weapon Focus, +2 Int, Bonus Feat, Enhance Arrow +1, Imbue Arrow
Requirements: Elf, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus(bow), Able to cast 2nd level arcane spells, all Armor Proficiencies, BAB +6
Books: Unearthed Arcana, Complete Warrior
Sorcerer 6/Witch Hunter 2/Spellsword 1/Rauthmari Battlemage 4/EK 7
BAB: +16
Caster Level: 18 (9th level Sor spells)
Saves: ???
Special: Ignore 10% ASF, Kami's Grace, detect evil, smite evil, sword focus, battle spell(silent, still), channel spell I&II
Requirements: Knowledge(arcana) 10, Able to cast 3nd level arcane spells and magic circle against evil, Able to read Roushoum and Imaskari, Militia, Track, EWP:Bastard Sword, Combat Casting, One Metamagic feat, Martial Weapon Proficiency, all Armor Proficiencies, BAB +5
Books: Oriental Adventures, Complete Warrior, Unapproachable East
Fighter 1 / Battle Sorcerer 4 / SpellSword 5 / Eldritch Knight 10
BAB: +19
Caster Level: 16 (20 with practiced spellcaster, 1 8th lvl slot)
Saves: +14/+5/+11
Special: Ignore 20% ASF, 3 Bonus Feats, Channel Spell 3/day. You have no feat requeriments at all, so you are free to chose the path you prefer.
Requeriments: Knoledge (Arcana) 6, +4 BAB, All armors and all simple and martial weapons proficencies, 2nd level arcane casting && all martial weapon proficiencies and 3rd level arcane casting.
Books: Dungeon Master's Guide, Complete Warrior and Unearthed Arcana.
It's a very neat and easy build. You have virtually no requeriments and a lot of room to choose your feats. You can even try a tactical gish with this build. It is playable at low levels as you will have good HP and good BAB. Consider yourself as a fighter with lots of magical tricks.
This build is from Jared de'Minco, not mine.
The Quintessential Gish
Ftr 2/Wiz or Sor 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9
BAB: 18
Caster level: 15 (19 with Practiced Spellcaster)
Saves: +14/+5/+11
Special: A bit lower CL than other popular gish builds but with plenty of feats and Channel Spell included, which more than compensates. ASF -20%. A solid build all the way.
This build is in my experience best done as a human wielding a Spiked Chain or a Dwarf wielding a Greatsword.
Fighter 1/Battle Sorcerer 8/Eldritch Knight 10/Spellsword 1
BAB: +18
Caster Level: 18 (20 with practiced spellcaster, 2 9th lvl base slots, 1 9th level spell known)
Saves: +13/+5/+11
Special: Ignore 10% ASF, 2 Bonus Feats, Ignore all ASF when in light armor. No feat requirements.
Requirements: All martial weapon and armor proficiencies, able to cast 3rd level arcane spells, must defeat an enemy through force of arms alone, Knowledge (Arcana) 6 ranks.
Books: Dungeon Master's Guide, Complete Warrior and Unearthed Arcana.
Clean, simple, and you get two extra feats over and above what a normal spellcaster gets (admttedly, they're fighter feats, but, hey...). BAB and CL 18 (20 if you want to get Practised Spellcaster). Personally, Arcane Strike would be a must with me for this build, but you can do what you want with it. Please pick any holes you see in this; it is a concept that I might just try for my next gish character. Perhaps going Star Elf (from the Forgotten Realms) would be a good idea for the Cha boost. Maybe not, but it's just an idea...
A few things.
1. shadow mage is right, I retired the Gish thread because it got cluttered. I have been considering making a new (4th? could that be right?) one. But I would rather work on it with other people using a shared account. It would work better if the entire thread were restricted and done a lot like how Funny Slaughter did the 3.5 FAQ (i.e. asking for help and having submissions e-mailed in for an organized look).
2. After I realized the mistake I made when I introduced the Gish term was that is was rather specific to Caster/Warriors that tended to use magic almost exclusively for killing directly (as opposed to hasting, mage armoring, etc.). That was when I tried to repair the damage done by trying to reclassify things as Bladesinger (for Illusion and Transmutation focus like Elves. Mobility/self-empowering), Gish (direct warring), and I forget the other two I came up with.
3. The reason I left Unearthed Arcana out is because one could argue that a small change to a class warrents a totally different build. Also, the varient wizards are so vague someone could argue that you don't have to be in the wizard class to take the specials (when in fact you do because a lot of them trade the bonus wizard feats).
4. I am Jared de'Minco. Well, not really, my name is Jonathan E F... but I made the Jared account for a game on the Real d20 boards, but I stepped out to make room for someone that wanted to be there more. Thanks Patrick, I didn't think anyone remembered the post I did under Jared. (that is why I put the laugh.)
5. The reason I don't like the Battle Sorcerer in Multiclassed progressions for a warrior is that it is a cop out! It already jumps out of Sorcerer for a better BAB (albeit a slower spell progression). Part of the reason the threads I've done got so much respect is because I didn't except cop outs. If something is worth doing or remembering it is worth doing right. Which leads directly into point #6.
6. The biggest reason I didn't start over again is because each time I did, I got four hours and like three pages done and felt that what I did was good enough, so I trashed it. If I were to 'start again' again (not a typo). I would only include spotlights on Prestige Classes, Feats, Core Classes, Spells, Weapons, and the like to point out other ideas. Basically it would be something of a "You might like this for your Arcane Warrior." Make a manual instead of a template. It could teach Min/Maxing instead of showing finish products.
- Core Classes: Bards aren't as bad as a lot of people think (inspire courage is like a varying duration Magic Weapon spell).
- Feats: Feats make as much of an impact on the character as the classes selected, they deserve more attention. Arcane Strike is very important for Wizards, since it allows a spell to do double duty.
- Spells: There is more to Arcane Warriors than Fireballs, Mage Armor, and Haste spells. There is also Heroism, Rage, and a smorgasborg of other spells that I have greased over in my haste to make this list.
- Weapons: Not just enhancements, but the weapons themselves. Some of the builds have no feat requirements! So a Spell Channeling Spiked Chain Arcane Warrior could be devastating!
- Sample NPCs: The thing I was most proud of (and regret not doing more of) was the sample NPCs that were short of level 20. It was just a pain to format them as NPC blocks!
Go for it Shadow Mage! Have a blast with it! If you ever need help or (more likely) emotional support (some people can really be trying on the paitence) I'm around.
Race: Dwarf (Duergar or Goliath if LA buyoff rules used)
Samurai 1/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Battle Domain Wizard 3(UA)/Rage Mage 3/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10
BAB: +17/+12/+7/+2
Saves: +18/+5/+8
Caster Level: 14th
Benefits: EWP: Bastard Sword, Improved Trip (leading to Knockdown), Arcane Spell Failure -25% (good enough for Mithril Full Plate), Casts spells while Raging
Feats would probably go something like this:
1: EWP: Bastard Sword (Sam bonus), Combat Reflexes
2: (if Goliath only) Barbarian Racial Sub level (Mountain Rage)
3: Improved Trip (Bar bonus), Combat Casting
4: Scribe Scroll (Wiz bonus)
6: Power Attack
9: Arcane Strike
10: Knockdown
12: Reckless Rage
15: Mage Slayer
18: Quicken Spell
Ragin' Magin' v2:
Race: Dwarf (or Duergar if LA buyoff allowed)
Fighter 1/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Battle Domain Wizard 2(UA)/Runesmith 1/Rage Mage 7/Eldritch Knight 7
BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1
Saves: +17/+4/+9
Caster Level: 13th
Benefits: Cast spells in any armor, Improved Trip (->Knockdown), Casts spells while raging, free Metamagic enhancement to spells while raging.
Feats would probably go something like this:
1: Weapon Focus: Greatclub, Combat Reflexes
3: Improved Trip (Bar bonus), Combat Casting
4: Scribe Scroll (Wiz bonus)
6: Power Attack
9: Mage Slayer
12: Quicken Spell
15: Arcane Strike, Knockdown
18: Reckless Rage
Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 4/Spellsword 1/Eldritch knight 10
BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1
Caster Level: 18
Saves: +16/+5/+13
Special: Must be a Dwarf, Familiar, Rune magic.
The con bonus helps to offset the low HD. Grab some Mechanus gear armor, an Animated Tower shield, and go wild!!!
Notes on Strategy and Tactics: While tactics are battle-by-battle formulas for success, so to speak, strategy is slightly larger in scale. However, since in a campaign you don’t usually have much of a choice (DM’s the “god”, after all), we will refer to individual combat maneuvers as “tactics” and group maneuvers as “strategy”.
Strategy and tactics are an essential when participating in combat-heavy adventures and even in campaigns with fewer-than-normal combat encounters they are still very useful to know. From mages to fighters, the tactical maneuvers an individual and/or a group can present is mindboggling, but gish hold a special place in the area of tactics and strategy in that they combine both aspects of mage and fighter. The following section will detail the basics of strategies and tactics with the three main gish subtypes and tips on how to make combat in general smoother for your party. Afterall, you're playing a versatile character, right? Why not use him for all he's worth?
Balanced Gish Focus
Combat Formation: Balanced gish have the hardest time finding their favored combat position because they’re the most versatile of gish types and their roles can change focus suddenly and effectively. However, lack of specialization could mean spreading one’s self too thin, while overspecialization can lead to a too-focused character. Balanced gish, regardless of their type favored weapons, should be easily adaptable in frontline and rear-support, as well as provide decent mage support from wherever. This means you go where you’re needed. If a hole presents itself, plug it with a magic missile and then yourself. If no more melee combat is needed, sit tight and fling spells at your enemy (this is where those nice big evocation spells and Sculpt Spell come in) to assist your buddies in melee. If enemy magical types are proving to be troublesome, dimension door into melee with them, or simply buff your allies to high heaven. Melee is where most balanced gish seem to gravitate, though, so spells that can turn the tide in melee should be applied liberally but not so often that you forget you’re holding a sword.
If your balanced gish enjoys reach weapons, perfect. You effectively have a character that can sit in “melee”, nail enemies from a range they can’t hit you with and sit behind a wall of your party’s meleeists. Even better, you can cast your spells easily without worrying about other foes striking at you and causing you to loose your spell (unless they have reach, too). Ranged gish typically have a nice bow but less archer ability than the focused archer gish, which is fine since they also tend to have higher level spells. Trading off polar ray and four bow shots a round is certainly nothing wrong. Players who enjoy their spellcasting are ideally suited for reach-weapon or ranged gish of this type.
“True” melee-oriented balanced gish are your “bladesinger” types, meaning they tend to have medium to higher armor, medium Dexterity, and like a very high AC. These are the ones who can sit in melee duking it out with equal-level warrior types (and/or martial-focused gish) and survive. Balanced gish in melee combat like this should definitely focus on bigger, badder buff spells but should still be able to, should the occasion arise, move away from melee and take up rear support with spells.
Tactics: Balanced gish don’t usually have much distinction between lightweight, middleweight, and heavyweight subtypes. Afterall, a character with BAB +16-18 and CL 16-18 is useful regardless of where he is, especially on his own. In many cases these types of gish can sit alone amongst groups of enemies as a great distraction for their party and with the level of spellcasting they possess cast elemental immunity (lv6 from Manual of the Planes) followed by meteor swarm right at his feet and have the AC and hit points to survive until he can pull this off. Once accomplished, he can easily move back into the main fray (wherever he is).
Individual balanced gish are solid choices for combat of any kind. With high level spells at his disposal and a strong sword arm, most monsters are in for trouble messing with such a character, for many won’t do so well against characters who can fight almost as well as they can in melee and then cast spells to buff himself further (or cast spells to attack and press the offensive). Essentially, the most sound tactic for a lone balanced gish is to move slowly into melee, casting a spell and moving, casting a spell and moving, and just before entering melee buff yourself and go to town. Even if fighting many strong foes, at least you’re softening them up from a range (depending on the location many spells have greater ranges than the best ranged weapons) before entering melee stronger then usual.
Strategy: When surrounded by friendly allies, balanced gish shine brighter then any other and rivals clerics and druids for outright usefulness. Casting spells one turn and moving into melee the next for a blast of martial power can certainly surprise enemies, especially intelligent ones. Counterspelling balanced gish become the party’s best friend and sculpting a spell around your allies in melee is always helpful. The two strategies, of the many available, I will highlight are the High Mobility strategy and the Tunnel Complex strategy. Neither are explained in great depth, as the idea is to give general ideas and let players come up with the rest.
- High Mobility: High mobility combat emphasizes speed of both movement and initiative. Winning initiative is important, but not overpoweringly so. The basic gist of this strategy is that half the party moves while half covers them. Half cast a spell or make a single ranged attack and take a move action, the other take a move action and then follow up with their own ranged attack. This keeps continuous movement possible and makes it hard to pin your group down. The job of the gish is to ensure the two “groups” do not get separated via some quick-witted trickery on the part of the enemy. The best of high mobility strategies are accomplished on horseback.
------ - Tunnel Complex: This sort of strategy is unusual in that it favors cramped conditions. Finding areas to bottleneck is typically priority, for if foes are contained and held in such a way that they can only attack from the direction you choose that means you dictate the battle. A “front line” of fighter-types is important, with the mages and lighter characters of course behind them a good long ways. The job of the balanced gish here is to buff up the meleeists and provide abjuration/protection spells while picking away at enemies with either a reach or ranged weapon.
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Martial Gish
Combat Formation: Obviously the focused "spellsword" gish (a gish who focuses on high BAB with spellsupport, much like the Spellsword PrC), this being a more martial build, has a sound place as either a rear ranged support or up on the front line. The Spellsword PrC's channel spell makes this arguably the best prestige class martial gish can acquire. Spell channel is very dangerous and very powerful. Channelling a cone of cold works best when no allies are in the way of the cone, so ideally you want to be the "point-man" in a party's formation. Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger/Rogue support (hell, buffed cleric works too) from both sides works well and if thought out carefully prevents flanking assuming your opponents are all in front of you. This sort of V formation with the gish as the point allows the remaining partiy to not only provide ample protection for one another, but their "lead man" is a blaster with HP and BAB to boot. If he takes too bad a beating, he can fall back with at least two other characters protecting his "retreat" to the rear.
Conversely, the martial gish is also extremely effective in the back of the party, completely ignoring the front-line and instead focusing on archery or ranged spells. Standing next to the mage with Quick Draw, a sword at your side, and a bow in hands will keep yourself prepared to protect the mage and still providing valuable aid in combat. This is a very good place in the party for low-hp gish builds, even if they are martial, and with a simple buff (usually not necessary but nice to have anyway) the low-hp martial gish can provide awesome bow-support.
As a martially-bent gish, your priority in the build is high base attack with spell-support. That means that, whether in melee (tanks) or at the rear (lightweights), you will likely be very effective buffing yourself and others and hitting enemies with your weapons. If you want attack spells, focus on spells that guarantee hits (ie magic missile) and spells that require ranged touch attacks (ie scorching ray). Otherwise, spells to buff your ability scores (series of level two spells) and that provide good defense are always helpful.
Tactics: Martially-focused gish are extremely dangerous. They’re usually close to full BAB with roughly 11-14 spellcasting levels. Imagine a Fighter with Tenser’s transformation. That said, there are several tactics martial gish can employ to make them truly dangerous in combat.
- 1) Tanks- Focusing on the higher points of your abilities, Spellsword gish should always make use of channel spell. It allows you to essentially cast twice in a round, one to buff yourself, one to hurt your enemy. Next round you can strike harder (thanks to the buff) against a weaker foe. Tanks tend to have higher AC so striking them with an AoO is usually much harder. High-AC build should milk every drop of usefulness from their build and be up in melee, distracting the heck out of the enemy by having the balls to cast spells in melee and then turn around and swing a greatsword.
------ - 2) Middleweights- It’s not hard to be good out of full plate. Simple medium armor enhanced nicely is always effective to keep your AC relatively high, and you usually have an alright bonus from Dexterity. This automatically makes you more versatile. While you can’t stand in melee for as long as a tank-gish, you can also hit with a bow a little more effectively and for a little more damage. You can play both ranged and melee roles fairly well, and spells that augment this should be used often. Actually, middle-weight gish builds are very effective when paired with the various wall spells. Limiting how many foes can attack you and dealing with them first is a very sound tactic, and feat chains are excellent support as well. The spiked-chain feat group, feats focusing on reach weapons, and those enhancing archery are always nice to have and while you can’t have all three of these chains in gish builds, you only need one group. Spiked-chain trippers with cat’s grace and then Tenser’s transformation become arguably the scariest thing on the battlefield.
------ - 3) Lightweights- Light-weight martial builds are the best ranged gish available. Usually with lighter armor they have much higher Dexterity, so grab a bow and use it. Often. Sit behind the main fray and pelt away with archery-related feats and ranged touch spells for vicious effect. Magic missiles are invaluable to you, since they’re guaranteed hits and damage, and maximizing them for a free 25 damage is never a bad deal. Lightly-armored gish should not be in melee too often, though they should be able to hold their own for a few rounds if need be. Remember to quicken (via wizard gish or Arcane Preparation sorcerers) true strike to guarantee your hits, especially when using Rapid Shot or Many Shot, or any other feat that provides penalties to attacks for more attacks. Again buff spells are infinitely useful here.
Strategy: Group synergy is where gish specialize. Though no gish is defenseless out of an adventuring group, it’s when surrounded by allies the martial gish shines. Regardless of his role the martial gish is an invaluable combination of combat prowess and spell support (martial gish should not be attempting spell-duels with enemy casters).
- 1) Tanks- The tank’s usefulness is painfully obvious. Sit in the front line and blast cone spells at multiple enemies. Spells that deal high damage are your goal, if you want to even focus on attack-spells at all. Self-buff and group buff spells (mass bear’s endurance for example) make you a party favorite in a heartbeat, and by sticking next to the fighters of the group enemy focus is usually taken away from the caster at the rear of your group. Or, better yet, the enemy’s attention can be divided between the tank martial gish, the cleric, and/or the PAC. If all three are attacking/spellcasting for higher damage, the other characters are typically ignored in importance and the enemy is splitting their resources (divide...and conquer...).
------ - 2) Middleweights- Reach-weapons. Your friends will love you forever if they know they can retreat and still be covered, and all the while you’re safely out of melee (middleweight martial gish usually have less HP then their tank cousins). Mass buffs are even more useful for you then for the tank martial gish, because you can sit there casting them without fear of attacks of opportunity. However, you also have the option of falling back to spell support if you so choose (see my Master of Whips). With three feats you can become the best friend of the entire party when you randomly counter an enemy’s spells. Or simple ranged-touch spells (necromancies in particular) can provide ample spell support, and augmenting your caster with mental buffs (eagle’s splendor, fox’s cunning, owl’s wisdom, etc.) makes -his- spells more effective, thus increase his usefulness to a party. Middle-weight martial gish have too many individual roles in a party to list, but focusing on (using Master of Whips example) something like reach-weapon support, spell-support, and buff-spell support will make an incredibly effective gish that doesn’t have to be good alone since in a group he rocks.
------ - 3) Lightweights- Individual tactics versus group strategy changes little with lightweight martial gish. With the highest Dexterity and lowers armor bonus of the three types, your priority will be to remain in the back to protect the casters and provide (if necessary) retreat cover. Archery feats are helpful here, as is 3.0 haste. Really any spells that will improve your archeries will make you more useful to the group, so Precise Shot and Cat’s grace are must-haves. This class of martial gish is entirely defined by feat-selection, but archery feats are the most optimal since you should be at range during every combat. Sure a sword at the hip is nice, but with likely the lowest HP in the group you don’t want t make it a habit of sitting in melee when your party could suddenly find it’s PAC attacked by a dimension door-ing enemy. Ranged touch spells, shield, and magic missle should always be on your spell list.
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Spell-focused Gish
Combat Formation: Surprisingly, the spell-focused gish can, much like a balanced gish, appear anywhere on the battlefield. With higher armor then most rogue-types and certainly higher AC then other full casters/manifesters, spell-focused gish can sit anywhere as artillery platforms or offensive machines (depending on the primary casting/manifesting class). The ideal place for spell-focused gish builds, though, is in the rear just like other casters. It’s easier to cast spells when you know you won’t be affected every single attack of opportunity attempting to ruin your spellcasting day.
Although “the rear” is the most obvious choice for spell-focused gish, something important has been overlooked with that conclusion: spell effectiveness. Many touch spells used at higher levels can be empowered or maximized to great effect (lv16 empowered maximized vampiric touch for example) and such spells should be used liberally. Gish emphasizing their spell or psionic side tend to have a very high caster or manifester level (17-19) and a lower Base Attack bonus (15-16). Casting the said example of vampiric touch and following this with a channeling of 8th level spells into Arcane Strikes bring to light the knowledge that in the midst of melee spell-focused gish can be just as dangerous as martially bent gish, using muscle to augment spells rather then the other way around. However, as dangerous as melee gish who focus more into their spellcasting than into their martial talents are, the optimal place for any primary or near primary caster is at the rear of the party or at least a distance away from the main fray of combat where he can cast spells from relative safety.
Tactics: Tactics for spell-focused gish are pretty much the same tactics any other primary caster would use, with the minor exception that melee is no place to fear. Use of multiple wall spells in strategic manners can certainly aid in the “divide and conquer” scheme and if there is plenty of time to prepare then spells commonly overlooked like mirage arcana, move earth, and the various symbols are all excellent when laying ambushes. Below are three general tactics individual spell-focused gish can employ and when they would be best employed.
- 1) Solo Ambush- The neatest thing about gish is that alone they are still as versatile as with a group. Spell-focused gish, however, though randomly left alone, are powerful in the face of superior enemies or enemy numbers. Ambush tactics typically employ at least one or two illisionary spells (ie Hallucinatory terrain, mirage arcana) and a few other less-used spells in a caster's repertoire like the various symbols and explosive runes and alarms. Placing said explosive runes in the midst of a solid fog prevents them from escaping, and while watching from invisibility the gish can take advantage of any higher level area affect spells at the foes who just took damage. Underground and in closed quarters this works especially well, and spells such as stone shape can be put to wonderful use. Solo ambushes should only be taken part of if the gish performing the ambush knows the lay of the land very well.
------ - 2) Coverfire/Pressuring- The idea of this tactic is to "keep the enemy's head down". There is no stealth required, but keeping enemies bottled into one general area and pinned is an effective way to allow an adventuring party to establish a trap elsewhere while the gish fends off foes. Really any spell is useful here, so long as it's bright and flashy so even stupid creatures can see it and recognize it as something that hurts. Against intelligent foes, wall of fire followed by quickened magic missiles will almost certainly cause at least a momentary pause. Ready actions taken to loose ranged touch spells at foes who peek from behind a corner can also be very effective at pinning down foes. However, to clarify, pinning an enemy is NOT the primary goal of this tactical maneuver; fending the enemy off is. As long as the enemy progress is slowed (typically covering for an escape or lead into an ambush) then the gish has successfully employed this tactic.This tactic becomes less applicable against fewer more powerful foes, but against moderately strong enemies in number coverfire and pressure can become a key element in victory.
------ - 3) Solo Defense- On one's own and likely outnumbered/outclassed, a spell-focused gish needs to be more then moderately proficient with defending themself. This means making yourself unhittable, be it by buffing yourself so damage does very little or by making enemies not want to hit you. Spells such as fire shield, enlarge when used with reach weapons, and polymorphing into creatures like trolls (dare I say war trolls?) create powerful defenses that are hard to beat. Essentially, the idea behind solo defense is that the gish is either surviving until allies arrive or he's been pinned down by enemies and is forced to last as long as he can until he is either able to escape or he dies. Contingency set to cast teleport when low on life can save the life of any spellcasting character, gish being no exception. This is where the various buff spells shine, namely spell like blurr, displacement, fire shield, globe of invulnerability (greater/lesser/etc.), and stoneskin, though this is far from the complete list.
Strategy: Some information regarding group strategy and maneuvers.
- 1) Ambush- Ambushes set up by spell-focused gish with full party support tend to be nasty. The mental ping version of alarm alerts when foes enter a desired area and a series of symbols and glyphs (along with runes) can make life for enemies more than just hellish. While the most powerful of these spell types are the symbols, these spells are simply designed to soften foes up for the "main stage" so to speak. Smart spell-focused gish would have already changed the landscape to their liking via a transmute rock/mud to mud/rock spell or even move earth or stone shape and make it harder for enemies to simply move on through by introducing features (like low walls) to impede movement. Fogs (particularly solid/acid fog are perfectly suited to this sort of combat. Foes emerging from such fogs often find a party's worth of arrows/attack spells targeting them, though in many cases remaining in the fog is just as lethal. Ideally, fighter-types will be waiting close to the ambush entrance (though out of range of any prepared traps) and ranged party members will be just behind them waiting to strike.
------ - 2) Artillery/Cover- Similar to the coverfire/pressure tactical maneuver, this takes those tactics to the next level and applies them to larger-scale fights. Big, damage-dealing spells like the beloved fireballs, lightning bolts, and their greater versions (delayed blast fireball and chain lightning, respectively) are just a few of the many spells usable in these situations. This is mostly used in groups to cover immediate retreats or to keep enemies hiding behind cover while the gish's party sets up for some attack or another. Bombarding a battlefield with evokation spells is one way of accomplishing this, though another less commonly used way is by summoning large numbers of creatures to engage and hopefully corall enemies into more manageable groups. Regardless of how it's done, this strategy is designed to keep enemies focused on the gish and his spells/minions, leaving the rest of the party to its own designs and tricks. There is very little "group" effort required here.
------ - 3) Support- Support is the most simple strategy. With a bow in hand, trading turns taking full attack actions with the weapon and casting spells is the most desireable strategy. Other ranged combatants in the group should crowd around the gish to provide it with maximum cover. The main purpose of this spell is to wear down at enemies, typically employing lower level spells (like lots of acid arrows, magic missiles, scorching rays, and the occasional higher level spell like polar ray or horrid wilting). Attacking as many enemies in a turn is important, so likely only one or two bow shots any one round will be focues on the same foe. The idea behind that is to "spread the love" so to speak, making the gish more noticed by enemies while the true ranged combatant of the group picks off the weakened enemies from a distance. Symbols are also useful here, if used in the same manner as in ambush strategies, as are many uses of enervation and even energy drain if available against stronger foes.
With the generic melee Fighter 2/PAC 4/Spellsword 5/EK 9, you could take out 1 level of EK for Dragonslayer for a d10 (instead of d6) HD and argue that it is a different progression.
Or people argue that Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 5/EK 9 is significantly different than Fighter 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 5/EK 9 because the first gets Cha to Saves, while the second doesn't.
Basically you end up with two, three, four, or maybe even five times as many builds/progressions while they are not significantly different.
Your mentioning that I should spotlight specific prestige classes usable in gish builds makes this all the more important. Show them what sort of multiclassing they'll probably need to do, and why, and then they can go down to the PrC Spotlight section of the thread to see if they like that as an idea.
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch knight 10/Archmage 4
BAB: +15/10/5
Caster Level: 18 (20 with Practised Spell Caster or 2 Spell Powers)
Saves: +12/+5/+11
Special: 4 High Arcanas, 2 Fighter Feats, 1 Wizard Feat, completely core.
Requirements: All Martial Weapons, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), 2 Spell Focus of creators choice.
Books: Players Handbook, Dungeon Master Guide.
I like this build because although it doesn't have the 4th attack, it has a lot of versatility, (with 4 High Arcanas you can do a lot), second I feel that is option is a Wizard that can fight, rather than a Fighter that can cast spells, which is the concept i had set up to create, third there is no flavour conflict, finally it would be difficult for any DM to disallow this build, since is Core.
Note: If you are really interested on the last attack than you could give up the last 2 levels of Archmage and take one lvl of Dragon Slayer and one lvl of Spellsword, and still keep 9th lvl spells.
Spellsword favors the Tank direction.
Bladesinger favors the Lighter Armor direction.
Eldritch Knight fills in any unspent levels (which is why it is usually best left until last to keep raising BAB and Spells).
Havoc Mage makes it easy to cast a few extra spells in combat (quicken spells don't provoke AoOs).
Obviously I am not being too thorough. But if you break each PrC down and outline the benefits gained, it can allow people to make their own decisions (and save you a lot of mind racking).
The reason you want to focus in is because if don't it is too easy get too broad in how one PrC synergizes with other PrC's you will end up with a Manual of Manuals. It will be so large and confusing that it would take less time to just say "E-mail me your request and I will send you back a template for your specific case that will be exactly what you want."
Not everything has to be shown. People can figure out easily what they want to do after Fighter 2/PAC 4/Spellsword 5 They can decide for themselves if they want to just finish out with EK for 9 more BAB, a bonus feat, and 8 more casting increases or if they want to go Havoc Mage or countless other melee classes.
There are more possible paths than people that approach the situation. And the amount of consideration for even an article that focuses in (at the near exclusion of all other PrCs) on the Spellsword could be massive. Short Example:
Channel Spell is gained at the 4th level of Spellsword. The earliest a PC using the Core Rules (i.e. pretending Unearthed Arcana and its Battle Sorcerer don't exist) can gain this ability is 10th character level.
Lets go a little farther.
Multiple Channel Spell is gained at 16th character level. Depending on the campaign, the ability to channel two spells at once is not only powerful, but good sense (like Living Greyhawk where there tends to only be 2-4 combats, and often they are on different days). In others the same PC might need to be able to spread their channels farther.
It is hard enough to discuss the value of a PrC (or when the value just doesn't seem to be high enough) without trying to map every other PrC you might want to use it with.
Edit:
The greatest advantage of letting people draw some of their own conclusions is that you can avoid arguing. Instead of saying when to leave a PrC, you can say the advantages of being there for that level. The only thing that a person might need is examples of lead ins (the first PrC taken is usually the hardest to qualify for as you have BAB and skills that might stipulate a minimum level).
Sorcerer10/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/Divine Crusader2/Mystic Theurge6
BAB:+11/+6/+1
Caster Level: 18
Saves: +12/+5/+19
Special: Ignore 10% Arcane Spell Failure, Summon Familiar, Aura of Courage, +1 Damage bonus against Dragons, Aura, War Domain
Requirements: Dodge, Iron Will, Tumble 2 ranks, All Martial Weapons and All Armor, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks, Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon).
Books: Player's Handbook, Draconomicon, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Dungeon Master's Guide.
This build could use some explanation. Two Words: Divine Power. You take War domain and 3 times a day base, plus Divine Crusader's spellcasting stat is Charisma. Not too feat hungry, gets access to the other War spells, I'm thinking Craft Magic Arms & Armor along with some Practiced Spellcasting and maybe Arcane Strike will do it. I suggest a deity who supports slaying dragons.
for the meta-optimization thread.It will not grant you the requirements for Spellsword, only EK.
Shouldn't the amount of Spellsword levels be limited (perhaps even eschewed) if caster level is a concern?
I'm not sure why a 1-level dip in Spellsword makes that much sense.
It would be nice if you listed what books most of these PrC's are from as I am not familiar yet with what is in 3.0 to 3.5.
+1 BAB
+1 Caster level
+2 Fort
+2 Will
Ignore 10% Arcane Spell Failure
~hf
edit: Mondreyes, what PrCs do you have questions about?
Anyway, cultjake, the reason it makes sense is posted by handforged. Add a d8 for HD to the list, too.
Mondreyes, I will post these things when I finilize the thread. At the moment I'm redoing some pages since I now agree with JosephKell regarding whether or not full twenty-level-progressions are truly needed and filling those pages now with prestige class focuses that say where the PrC is from, its benefits, prerequisites, and Pros-Cons (not complete list such as skill-list, benefits recieved at each level, etc., because not even I want to deal with the legal aspects behind that).
What does the one level of Dragonslayer do?
Witch Hunter, rune smith, and paragon for starters.
WH: Oriental adventures. Decent for a Cha-build. Better then Pal 2.
RS: Races of stone. No somatic components @lvl 1.
Paragon: Unearthed arcana. Various different thingies depending on the race.
Dragonslayer: Draconomicon. +1 BAB, good Fort & Will, +1 caster level, d8 or d10 HD (I don't recall), all martial weapons and all armor proficiency!
IWhy take fighter or mage when I can not only do both, but do them well?
Because a well-build mage will trounce you.
Thanks.
feats-power attack, divine might, iron will, dodge, improved toughness
BAB-18, CL-15 arcane, 2 divine
Paladin5/sorcerer4/spellsword3/EK8 (less feat dependent, extra smite and can summon mount)
feats- power attack, divine might, improved toughness
BAB-18, CL 13 arcane, 2 divine
Because a well-build mage will trounce you.
Build me the mage that'll trounce me and I'll build you the gish that'll take 'im out. You can't assume things like this to be one-on-one duelist class builds. They're universal, best with groups of gish or with a well-rounded party. It's really easy to, in arguments regarding what sort of build/class is good, say things like "the barbarian beats it at this" or "the wizard can do this" but you have to remember to put that aside and look at the bigger picture.
A party of six: Rogue, two fighter-types (preferably a paladin and a figher-multiclass or a barbarian-type), Cleric-type (druid or cleric), a dedicated mage, and a gish of arcane or psionic type are a very well-balanced and very effective group. That's where gish shine, they can so well work synergetically with other classes. Sure one-on-one they can hold their own, but that's not what they're made for.
The main problem is the limit on the number of feats. Even if you had BAB 20 and Full Wizard casting (Gestalt Warrior 20/Wizard 20), you still only have 7 feats (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th). You can either spend those on metamagic, craft, skill boosting, combat, or whatever.
It is a general rule that if you try to do two things great, you end up doing both badly. Three specialists can do three things faster with better quality.
It is Easier to be a Warrior First, Arcane (or Psionic) second. BAB is easier to make up for (and most builds only lose 2, or at most 4). And being behind 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 Caster Levels makes a minor difference. This is part of the reason why Warmage isn't a totally bad decision for an Arcane Warrior (if you don't mind being a Slash and Blast character).
Being an Arcane (or Psionic) Caster first-Warrior second and effective is way harder. It is like being a Mystic Theurge without having the second caster class.
-------------------------
Dragonslayer gives +1 BAB, +1 increase to spells per day (and caster level), +2 Fort, +2 Will, d10 HD, Aura of Courage (like a Paladin), and I think Penetrate Dragon Spellresistance (+1 per Dragonslayer level to your caster check to overcome a dragon's spell resistance)
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Catharz and Shadow Mage (and everyone else that thinks that there exists one PC that can trump all others):
"If you try to punch me, I'll block and trip you."
"If you try to trip me, I'll kick your arse."
Around and around you go...
The main problem is the limit on the number of feats. Even if you had BAB 20 and Full Wizard casting (Gestalt Warrior 20/Wizard 20), you still only have 7 feats (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th).
Except for, yanno, the 11 or so Fighter feats you got as a Fighter and the 5 Metamagic/Item Creation feats you got as a Wizard on top of that.
Except for, yanno, the 11 or so Fighter feats you got as a Fighter and the 5 Metamagic/Item Creation feats you got as a Wizard on top of that.
That is true for Gestalt. But even in Gestalt, you can either choose to make your magic more effective or make your combat more effective. Each time you increase one, you aren't increasing the other.
Example:
1. Instead of Taking Weapon Focus (and increasing Combat), you could take Combat Expertise (increase defense) and protect yourself more (and make it harder to hit/interrupt you when you cast spells*). Note: Even if you cast defensively to not provoke an AoO, a foe could still ready an action to attack when you try to cast
2. Taking Craft Wand instead of Craft Magic Arms and Armor increases your magic abilities, while Craft Magic Arms and Armor would increase your combat ability.
Yes, it's sweet to have the melee character who can mop up Great Wyrms in a few rounds with the perfect charge, but in the long run, versatility determines a character's chance of survival.
Why do druids and clerics kick ass? Because they're versatile as hell. Versatility is key. A DM just needs to send two wildly different encounters, one after the other, and it will show just how important it is to be able to do more than one specialized thing at a time.
That's why, although a party made of a barbarian, a cleric, a focused wizard, and a rogue will deal with things faster than a party of a druid, an Arcane Trickster, a Gish, and an artificer.
Why do druids and clerics kick ass? Because they're versatile as hell. Versatile without cost. A wizard or sorcerer gets a full spellcasting progression (arguably the most powerful class feature in the game), as well as good Will saves.
A fighter gets full BAB progression, feats, good HD, and good Fortitude.
A Cleric gets a full spellcasting progression (arguably the most powerful class feature in the game), as well as good Will saves, as well as medium BAB, decent HD, and good Fortitude.
Clerics get everything that a Wizard gets and almost everything that a Fighter gets. This makes them versatile, at no cost.
Druids, in addition to the various abilities of the Cleric, also gain a good skill list and decent skill points per level (like a bard). Wildshape doesn't hurt either.
Gish are a different case. They get 'versatility,' but they give up a lot to gain it. They don't cast spells as well as a wizard (or cleric, druid, or sorcerer). They don't fight any better then a combat-focused cleric or druid. They tend to get poor skill lists and skill points.
So, a party consisting of a druid, a two clerics (or a cleric and a PrCed wizard), and an artificer or rogue will deal with things faster then either a party consisting of a barbarian, a cleric, a focused wizard, and a rogue or one consisting of a druid, an Arcane Trickster, a Gish, and an artificer, and they will last as long and will have better chances of doing more.
Arguing the validity of a character concept using only the D&D power paradigm is pointless. That road leads only to clerics, druids, and the occasional wizard, artificer, or rogue.
A better thing to concentrate on is how to make a normally sub-par character concept work. Which, judging by the builds featured in this thread, the Min/Maxers are doing quite well.
Why do druids and clerics kick ass? Because they're versatile as hell. Versatility is key.
There is a small problem with your reasoning. Clerics and druids are not only good because they are versatile. They are good because they are great in everything they do.
Druids are usually better casters than gishes, and better tanks too. versatility is not everything, you must also be good at the things you do.
I like gishes, they are my favorite character archetype. But I would usually say that a straight caster is more powerful.
Was there an errata on the Spellsword that I'm unaware of?
My T&B says first level of Spellsword is only +1 BAB and 2 good saves.
It isn't until second level that I get the +1 CL and -10% ASF.
My T&B says first level of Spellsword is only +1 BAB and 2 good saves.
It isn't until second level that I get the +1 CL and -10% ASF.
There is a newer version of the Spellsword on Complete Warrior.
He's focused on being able to deal out some decent ranged damage, to the detriment of caster level. I was also limited to a single CW PrC (I chose OotBi) and no other splatbooks
Ftr4/Wiz5/OotBi5/EK6
BAB: +17/+12/+7/+2
CL: 10
Feats: PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Weapon Focus(comp. longbow), Weapon Spec.(comp. longbow)[thus FTR4], Manyshot, Extend Spell, Impr. Rapid Shot, Impr. Critical, Power Critical and a house rule feat, basically Ranged Power Attack.
He's a transmutation specialist and basically a self buffer. He's a support PC through and though, ranged fire support for the tank and miscellaneous spell dispensing as required (RofE here, Dispel Magic there, Identify now and then etc)
You could probably just dip into OotBi for 2 levels (to get Close Combat Shot) and take a few more levels in EK to improve CL a little more, but the PC's flavor called for a generous # of levels in OotBi.
Egoist4/Ranger2/Illithid Slayerl9/Ghostwalker5
BAB: +18/+13/+8/+3
Manifester Level: 12
Saves: +11/+8/+18
Special: Too many to list ;)
Books: Players Handbook, Expanded Psionics, Song and Silence
True it's not the greatest build, but it's so incredibly fun. TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF, Improved Critical (bladed gauntlet), and Quicken Power take up essentially all of the remaining feats, so there's very little feat flexibility, but he fights with a longsword and a deepcrystal bladed gauntlet (15-20 critical). Cerebral Blind, Cerebral Immunity, and Anonymity work very well together, and he can provide transportation for himself and is group via shadow walk. Any mind flayers happened across will die, simple as that, and feign death is a saving grace against too-powerful foes (who will later get whiped across the floor because of painful reckoning).
An accidental build that focuses incredibly on the martial aspect of "gish", as it should be, and nearly all of his powers are buff with five total attack or offensive powers.
Did you convert it from 3.0 as is? I believe it can be used directly, but my DM thought it to be rather broken at times. And why 2 levels of ranger?
This is the level progression for Benrodyr:
The Moral: Good Roleplaying and Good Optimization are NOT Mutually Exclusive, Kids! ⁚
Sorcerer6/Fighter1/Spellsword3/Serpent Slayer10
BAB:+12/+7/+2
Caster Level: 18
Saves: +12/+5/+15
Special: Ignore 15% Arcane Spell Failure, Summon Familiar, Loads of anti-reptilian humanoid abilities, good skills, and an average of 83 hp before Con bonuses.
Requirements: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Casting, skill/spellcasting/proficiency requirements. Take Fighter first level, to get most HP and make qualifying for Spellsword easier.
Books: Player's Handbook, Complete Warrior, Serpent Kingdoms.
I'm shifting to the school of thought that survival in combat is more important than BAB, except for attacks. And if 3 attacks are good enough for a nonbuffed cleric, they're good enough for a gish. You have Arcane Strike and Tenser's Transformation if that's not good enough for you. This guy has a lot of what all Gishes need more of: HP (Hit Dice is 1d10 + 6d4 + 13d8, not far short of cleric). You can get even more with a Battle Sorceror, if you so wish, personally I prefer more spells for more Arcane Strikes.
The key to Gish though is they are warriors first, meaning they shouldn't have to rely on spells to buff up to stand toe-to-toe with enemy warriors and fighters.
I'm still working on my Comprehensive Library of Gish FAQ thread, and any help would be appreciated. Since I do not have access to many of the 3.5 materials, if people could post here or PM me reviews of several prestige classes, that would be great. Mostly they include Bladesinger, Spellsword, any other Dragon Magazine or 3.5 prestige class you can think of. Instead of focusing on providing builds, I'd like to focus on spotlighting prestige classes that make gish, but all I have to work from is the PHB and DMG (for 3.5 anyway). It would be better for people to see examples of how to create effective and fun gish builds and then draw their own conclusions then for myself or someone else to just post up good builds and not explain exactly what makes them good.
Example: Spellsword
Merits: Ignore Arcane Spellfailure... Channel Spell (by far the best feature), Full BAB, d8 HD
Drawbacks: Every Even level doesn't increase spellcasting.
Good levels to jump out after: 1st if you are just looking for a little armor. 5th if you want good armors and the Channel Spell. 9th if you want most of the features of the class. 10th if you want to really Channel Spells in a devastating fashion (using up 2 channelings can be a great way to end a boss fight, and at levels like 16th, lead villians can be quite deadly).
Lead in:
Fighter 2/Wizard 4
A thanks to JosephKell for this great idea.
A proper gish build in a fight with a straight wizard at high level wins hands down. I cast anti-magic zone...now you die. I can fight without magic can your level 20 mage? Nope? Oh too bad. Duels like this is kinda meaningless however.
One of my favorite gish build is fighter 1/ wizard 5/spellsword 4/incatrix 10. You need two levels of incatrix before you can take spellsword.
CL 17, BAB +12...but oh the fun things you can do with incantrix hehe. Not the most powerful gish build true...but fun.
I think EK really makes a gish build as it has near full caster and full BAB, it makes for good filler levels between getting powers you want from other PrC. Almsot all my 3.5 gish build use some levels of EK.
My favorite power gish...
Fighter 1/ wizard 6/ Spellsword 3/ EK 10...CL 17 with BAB 17.
Spell channel fun gish
Fighter 1/ wizard 5/ spellsword 10/ EK 4...you need one level of EK before spellsword. BAB 17, CL 13.
The in between...i.e. the suck, but fun to play anyways for options reasons...
Fighter 1/ wizard 5/ spellsword 5/ EK 9...BAB 17, CL 16...spell channel.
So anyone see a trend in my builds BAB? hehe.
Being able to just tough it out is another advantage over normal casters that Gish should develop.
Incantrix and channel spell almost makes for as much fun as a Dweomerkeeper gish.
Also on build notes...
My favorite power gish...
Fighter 1/ wizard 6/ Spellsword 3/ EK 10...CL 17 with BAB 17.
Spell channel fun gish
Fighter 1/ wizard 5/ spellsword 10/ EK 4...you need one level of EK before spellsword. BAB 17, CL 13.
The in between...i.e. the suck, but fun to play anyways for options reasons...
Fighter 1/ wizard 5/ spellsword 5/ EK 9...BAB 17, CL 16...spell channel.
So anyone see a trend in my builds BAB? hehe.
I think you are making a few mistakes. EK is the perfect way to fill out a character. Basically something to take when you have everything you want.
Effectiveness goes hand in hand with the speed. Of course that is speed in getting the special features you need. For Gish that can be armor (or Channel Spell). Fighter 2/PAC 4 is the fastest way into Spellsword. And Spellsword is the backbone of most Gish.
You made your "the suck" suck because you took the SLOW way into Spellsword.
Fighter 2/PAC 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9 is very solid. It has a strong melee base to get to level 3 (Fighter 2/PAC 1). Heck, even at level 3, a Gish should wear armor (Mithral Chainshirt's 10% ASF isn't too bad).
Infact, this is giving me an idea for an addition to Shadow Mage's Gish FAQ. Tips for getting over the Level 3-6 "Gish Curve." Fighter 2 or Paladin 2 is easy. But Fighter 2/Wizard 1 or Paladin 2/Charisma 1 is tricky, and Fighter 2/Wizard 4 has the martial capacity of a Bard.
Bard vs Fighter 2/Wizard 4: (By Living Greyhawk Rules)
- F2/W4 (if taken in that order) has 28 base hp while Bard 6 has 26 base hp. LG Rules for determining hit points is full at level 1 and half+1 for every level thereafter (After level 1, each fighter level is +6 hp, each wizard level is +3).
- Both have +4 BAB at level 6.
- Fighters get bonus feats (for Weapon Focus, etc) while Bards get Inspire Courage at character level 6, each is +1.
- Fighter Mages will eventually abandon a shield (until after a large investment in Spellsword) so they can use a Greatsword, Halberd, Greataxe, Bastardsword, Waraxe, or whatever. A Bard has Inspire Courage to increase their damage.
i agree a lot with JK;
the faster your in SpellSword the safer you are. As we dont get that many opportunity to buff up before an encounter.
so i tend to use only hour or 10 min/ level buff (beeing 9th level equivalent caster tks to practised spellacaster) and the rest of my slots for arcane strike.
and let me tell you i am considering myself a fighter type more than a caster.
and when surprised ie butt naked it gets really ruff on me
check my sig for my Char
Gregoire
Aniway, that's my build:
Barbarian 1 / Sorcerer 6 / Spellsword 3 / Rage Mage 10.
*** CAUTION: THE HEAVY ARMOR PROFIENCY FEAT IS MANDATORY TO TAKE THE SPELLSWORD LEVELS ***
BaB: +14/+9/+4 (+20/+15/+10/+5 using Warrior Cry).
Caster Level: 13 (as a Sorcerer, 4 sixth level spells).
Base Saves: +14 / +6 / +11.
Overcome Spell Failure: 25%
Base Rage Attempts per Day: 3.
Base Spell Rage Attempts per Day: 3.
A lot of spell slots for Arcane Strike, great rage bonuses, tireless rage, warrior cry once a day to become a real killing machine, spell rage to cast things like greater dispel, antimagic field, globe of invulnerability, chain lightning, mass transmutation spells like bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, eagle's splendor, death spells like disintegrate; attack spells like fireballs, cones of cold etc... ALL AS A LVL 20 SORCERER! One can be cast as a swift action once per rage too.
I'll have a hard time choosing which spells to take, as I like them all. Also, feats could be a problem, I need really A LOT of them!
So, race would be Wild Elf or Human... standard human would probably be better for that extra feat.
Plus, I can cast in medium armor and deal massive damage with Arcane Strike.
Important feats would be Heavy Armor Profiency (mandatory), Arcane Strike, Close-Quarters Fighting (with Arcane Strike, being grappled would become almost impossible), Power Attack, Improved Toughness (GREAT feat), Power Critical, Improved Critical, Combat Casting (MANDATORY), some craft feat, no metamagic feats needed (as a sorcerer, I'd need a full round action to cast them), Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, Improved Initiative, Practiced Spellcaster (INSANE FEAT); again, I've got to choose.
Comments and suggestions are welcome.
Barbarian 1 / Sorcerer 2 / Human Paragon 3 / Spellsword 3 / Dragonslayer 1 / Rage Mage 10.
BaB: +15/+10/+5 (+20/+15/+10/+5 using Warrior Cry).
Caster Level: 12 (as a Sorcerer, 3 sixth level spells).
Base Saves: +14 / +4 / +13.
Overcome Spell Failure: 25%
Base Rage Attempts per Day: 3.
Base Spell Rage Attempts per Day: 3.
Fewer spell slots for Arcane Strike, great rage bonuses, tireless rage, warrior cry once a day to become a real killing machine, spell rage to cast things like greater dispel, antimagic field, globe of invulnerability, chain lightning, mass transmutation spells like bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, eagle's splendor, death spells like disintegrate; attack spells like fireballs, cones of cold etc... ALL AS A LVL 20 SORCERER! One can be cast as a swift action once per rage too.
I'll have a hard time choosing which spells to take, as I like them all. Also, feats could be a problem, I need really A LOT of them!
So, race will be standard human that extra feat. Another extra feat from Paragon levels.
Plus, I can cast in medium armor and deal massive damage with Arcane Strike.
Important feats would be Arcane Strike (Heavy Weapon Profiency is no more needed, I get it from the Dragonslayer level, but I'll have to take Dodge and Iron Will) Close-Quarters Fighting (with Arcane Strike, being grappled would become almost impossible), Power Attack, Improved Toughness (GREAT feat), Power Critical, Improved Critical, Combat Casting (MANDATORY), some craft feat, no metamagic feats needed (as a sorcerer, I'd need a full round action to cast them), Spell Focus (Transmutation and Evocation), Greater Spell Focus (Transmutation and Evocation), Greater Spell Penetration, Greater Weapon Focus (a Two-Handed Weapon), Weapon Focus (a Two-Handed Weapon), Improved Initiative, Practiced Spellcaster (INSANE FEAT, THIS IS NECESSARY) and maybe Arcane Disciple to cast War Domain spells like Divine Power; again, I've got to choose.
Comments and suggestions are welcome.
Barbarian 1 / Sorcerer 2 / Human Paragon 3 / Spellsword 3 / Dragonslayer 1 / Rage Mage 10.
You should take Armor Proficiency (Heavy) somewhere between level 1 and 6 or you don't qualify for Spellsword.
Maybe you should replace that Dragonslayer level with something that doesn't cost you two feats, or get that level before Spellsword to qualify :P
he's Battlesorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 6/Sacred Exorcist 1/Havoc Mage 2 (with Militia feat)
we're using fractional BAB from UA, and he's an outsider type.
For that reason, he can kick ass in combat, by assuming Ghaele/Astral Deva forms. If it weren't for that, however, I don't think he'll be that great.
In my party, there's a Dwarf Forsaker/Deepwarden and an elf Dervish. The first doesn't do *that* much damage, but is nearly immortal with infinite hp and high AC. The dervish can deal lots of dmg in a round and can opt to be untouchable. The forsaker is better than you should be thinking, because there's not plenty of money and few magical item shops in our campaign.
I always think that, if it weren't for Polymorph (which truly makes me god-like in battle), it would be a waste of time to go melee with my Str of 16 (20 with Bull's Str).
Granted, he's not that combat oriented, but he's the only gish I've played with in 3e. So, my question is... for you guys who have already played with more melee gishes, can they make their way into combat compared to other min/maxed, well-built warriors? I mean, without using Polymorph?
Sooo, what's so great about it?
Becoming ethereal and shadow walking as extraordinary actions are NIIIIIICE. The shadow walk a Ghostwalker gets heals him too, so it's an excellent escape mechanism.
Fighter HD and BAB, but more skills and skill points, better saves (your Will saves will rock) and some CRAZY intimidate checks.
It's biggest appeal is flavor, true, but it's far from underpowered. Athar Defiant 10/Ghostwalker 10 is a dirty build.
To respond to Cold Napalm's response way back, high AC and damage can be handled with feats. Hell, Arcane Strike will give any Gish the damage and to hit bonuses they need. High AC is not mutually exclusive with high HP, once you get a few levels of spellsword.
wizard players handbook
swashbuckler complete warrior
bladesinger complete warrior
spellsword complete warrior
average elf +2 dex -2 con
score /cost/ adjusted/ end
str 10 (2) 10/10
dex 16 (10) 18/20 +5 hit /initiative /ac (weapon finesse)
con 14 (6) 12/12 +1 hp / lvl
int 16 (10) 16/18 +4 ac +4dmg
wis 8 (0) 8/8
cha 10 (2) 10/10
good:int to dmg and ac excelent bab good number of attacks & channel spell
bad: low level spells 4th 4 5 4 4 3
1 swashbuckler 1 bab 1 ac 14 weapon finesse weapon focus rapier
2 wizard 1 bab 0 ac 14 1st lvl spells scribe scroll sl1(1)
3 swashbuckler 2 bab 2 ac 14 combat casting grace +1
4 fighter 1 bab 3 ac 15 dodge int+1
5 fighter 2 bab 4 ac 15 combat expertise
6 swashbuckler 3 bab 5 ac 15 insightful strike , improved unarmed strike
7 bladesinger 1 bab 6 ac 16 bladesong style sl2(1) int+2
8 bladesinger 2 bab 7 ac 17 lesser spellsong
9 bladesinger 3 bab 8 ac 18 sl3 (2) improved critical rapier
10 spellsword 1 bab 9 ac 18 -10% asf sl4(2)
11 spellsword 2 bab 10 ac 18 [feat]
12 spellsword 3 bab 11 ac 18 -15% asf sl5(3) dex+1 arcane strike
13 spellsword 4 bab 12 ac 18 channel spell 3/day
14 bladesinger 4 bab 13 ac 19 song of celerity
15 bladesinger 5 bab 14 ac 19 sl6(3) practiced spellcaster
16 bladesinger 6 bab 15 ac 20 greater spellsong dex +1
17 bladesinger 7 bab 16 ac 20 sl7(4)
18 bladesinger 8 bab 17 ac 20 song of celerity 4th ,two weapon fighting
19 bladesinger 9 bab 18 ac 20 sl8(4)
20 bladesinger 10 bab 19 ac 20 song of fury dex +1
bab 19/14/9/4
twf 17/17/12/7/2
song 15/15/15/10/5/0
dex 20/20/20/15/10/5
you could also add a +19 for arcane strike even tough you would be spending many of your spell slots
You should take Armor Proficiency (Heavy) somewhere between level 1 and 6 or you don't qualify for Spellsword.
Maybe you should replace that Dragonslayer level with something that doesn't cost you two feats, or get that level before Spellsword to qualify :P
I'm taking the Dragonslayer level for that purpose.
I just miswrote when to take it.
VARIANT USING MATERIAL FROM UNHEARTED ARCANA AND DRACONOMICON!
Human Paragon 1 / Barbarian 1 / Sorcerer 2 / Human Paragon 2 / Rage Mage 2 / Dragonslayer 1 / Spellsword 3 / Rage Mage 8.
1: Human Paragon | Dodge, Iron Will
2: Barbarian
3: Sorcerer | Combat Casting
4: Sorcerer
5: Human Paragon | Craft Woundrous Items
6: Human Paragon | Spell Focus (Evocation)
7: Rage Mage
8: Rage Mage
9: Dragonslayer | Arcane Strike
10: Spellsword
11: Spellsword | Power Attack
12: Spellsword | Practiced Spellcaster
13: Rage Mage
14: Rage Mage
15: Rage Mage | Spell Penetration
17: Rage Mage
18: Rage Mage | Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)
19: Rage Mage
20: Rage Mage
BaB: +15/+10/+5 (+20/+15/+10/+5 using Warrior Cry).
Caster Level: 12 (as a Sorcerer, 3 sixth level spells).
Base Saves: +14 / +4 / +13.
Overcome Spell Failure: 25%
Base Rage Attempts per Day: 3.
Base Spell Rage Attempts per Day: 3.
Fewer spell slots for Arcane Strike, great rage bonuses, tireless rage, warrior cry once a day to become a real killing machine, spell rage to cast things like greater dispel, antimagic field, globe of invulnerability, chain lightning, mass transmutation spells like bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, eagle's splendor, death spells like disintegrate; attack spells like fireballs, cones of cold etc... ALL AS A LVL 20 SORCERER! One can be cast as a swift action once per rage too.
I'll have a hard time choosing which spells to take, as I like them all. Also, feats could be a problem, I need really A LOT of them!
So, race will be standard human that extra feat. Another extra feat from Paragon levels.
Plus, I can cast in medium armor and deal massive damage with Arcane Strike.
Important feats would be Arcane Strike (Heavy Weapon Profiency is no more needed, I get it from the Dragonslayer level, but I'll have to take Dodge and Iron Will) Close-Quarters Fighting (with Arcane Strike, being grappled would become almost impossible), Power Attack, Improved Toughness (GREAT feat), Power Critical, Improved Critical, Combat Casting (MANDATORY), some craft feat, no metamagic feats needed (as a sorcerer, I'd need a full round action to cast them), Spell Focus (Transmutation and Evocation), Greater Spell Focus (Transmutation and Evocation), Greater Spell Penetration, Greater Weapon Focus (a Two-Handed Weapon), Weapon Focus (a Two-Handed Weapon), Improved Initiative, Practiced Spellcaster (INSANE FEAT, THIS IS NECESSARY) and maybe Arcane Disciple to cast War Domain spells like Divine Power; again, I've got to choose.
*** UPDATE: I ADDED THE FEATS PROGRESSION TABLE FOR THIS BUILD. ***
I chose to add in Craft Woundrous Items to craft a philactery as soon as I reach character level 20 to become a lich and gain immortality.
Comments and suggestions are always welcome!
ARCANE STRIKE,
Actually if your going spellsword 10, don't go in with fighter 2, do fighter 1/wizard 5/ EK 1 to spellsword 10 and finish off with EK. CL 13, get spellcasting prodigy and with int pumped and high int to start, you can get 2 7th level spells...nothing says die like a dual spell channeled prismantic spray. Course with various damage spells you can do well over 70 dice o damage if that's what you want.
JosephKell already said it. Speed. The idea is to get in fast and nothin' else to add on that.
A proper gish build in a fight with a straight wizard at high level wins hands down. I cast anti-magic zone...now you die. I can fight without magic can your level 20 mage? Nope? Oh too bad. Duels like this is kinda meaningless however.
A "proper" gish build is a warrior with spell backup. That said, a powerfully built straight wizard or sorcerer would destroy a gish "hands down". You cast antimagic zone and you're now weaker then the fighter that moves in to engage you (why would the mage move in to engage you or allow you to move to him?). Remember, casting antimagic field emenates from you, so the mage is likely unaffected and can simply use a spell to whisk himself out of danger's way.
One of my favorite gish build is fighter 1/ wizard 5/spellsword 4/incatrix 10. You need two levels of incatrix before you can take spellsword.
CL 17, BAB +12...but oh the fun things you can do with incantrix hehe. Not the most powerful gish build true...but fun.
See above. A gish is a warrior first, spellcaster second.
I think EK really makes a gish build as it has near full caster and full BAB, it makes for good filler levels between getting powers you want from other PrC. Almsot all my 3.5 gish build use some levels of EK.
Again already said by JosephKell, Eldritch Knight is a filler. The low hit points and lack of abilities, despite high BAB and spell progression, make this a class to take a couple of to fill in "blank" levels in your character's plotted level progression. Spellsword is the backbone to almost any gish build because of the ability to ignore arcane spell failure and channel spells (two good saves are always sweet).
I'm currently playing with a more spell-oriented spellcaster
Oh are you now. ;)
In my party, there's a Dwarf Forsaker/Deepwarden and an elf Dervish. The first doesn't do *that* much damage, but is nearly immortal with infinite hp and high AC. The dervish can deal lots of dmg in a round and can opt to be untouchable. The forsaker is better than you should be thinking, because there's not plenty of money and few magical item shops in our campaign.
Forsaker isn't a problem, except you know, when he's trying to destroy the dervish's magic sword and those few magic items you have while your party sleeps. -shrug-
I always think that, if it weren't for Polymorph (which truly makes me god-like in battle), it would be a waste of time to go melee with my Str of 16 (20 with Bull's Str).
Granted, he's not that combat oriented, but he's the only gish I've played with in 3e. So, my question is... for you guys who have already played with more melee gishes, can they make their way into combat compared to other min/maxed, well-built warriors? I mean, without using Polymorph?
You rely on Polymorph? Hm...try a heavy melee gish build like Fighter2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword5/Eldritch Knight6/Dragonslayer3. Has BAB +18 and caster level 14. He ignores 20% ASF, has rediculous Fort and Will saves, pretty nice hp (2d10 + 4d4 + 5d8 + 6d6 + 3d10), is immune to fear, has damage reduction 1/-, and can channel spells through his sword. Plus has a few bonus feats to work with. You are right there a very good meleeist. If you're willing to take a risk, choose Tenser's Transformation as soon as you can get 6th level spells, which increases your damage output, chance to hit, life, saves, and chance to avoid hits (although your already high BAB probably won't allow this to yield extra attacks). Take Arcane Strike and Practiced Spellcaster and go to town with baddies fighting in melee with you.
About the Ghostwalker... Are we talking about the Sword&Fist Ghostwalker?? I took a look at it a while back, and I could not see what's so great about it. The only thing you get, is like... full BAB prog and the ability to gain a +5 on attack and dmg IF you lose 50% of your HP in an earlier battle with your opponent... Gotta lose first to gain some later... I found it bad...
Sooo, what's so great about it?
Yes, that's the ghostwalker I'm talking about. What's great is the entire build synergizes. It works excellent together, especially at late levels, and at early levels it's a survivable build. You can keep up damage output with psionics and melee through out the entire progression. Ghostwalker is entirely flavor, and then some. It allows shadow walking, which is wonderful, good Fort and Will, good HD and BAB, good skills, and Feign Death. Painful Reckoning is NOT the cornerstone of the PrC and only makes recurring badguys think twice about making direct confrontations. Remember that bonus goes to AC as well. Using the variant I mentioned it's a more universally useful ability, which I believe balances the class, but even then Painful Reckoning isn't why I took the class. I took it because it fit well with the story and provided what I wanted.
To SoulLord, that's a pretty nice build you've got there. Although it's debatable I believe Bladesingers to be just as viable gish as any other mage/warrior build (mage being arcane or psionic, warrior being self explanitory).
still even though its spell level is low compared to other builds it can make good use of it thanks to the bladesinger songs and the channel ability also the build is strong at all levels.
Now if only the wizard could let go of his ring of wizardry
SoulLord
The focus of this build is to "cast" as many spells as possible
fighter players handbook
wizard players handbook
spellsword complete warrior
bladesinger complete warrior
half-elf
fighter 2/ wizard 8 /spellsword 5/ bladesinger 5 /
bab 16 caster level 14 7th level spells
free action quickened 3rd lvl spell
standard action regular 7th level spell
free action (bladesinger) Song of celerity 2nd level spell
as a move action (spellsword) channel any spell into weapon
free contingency spell up to 3rd level when condition is met
for a total of 5 spells in a round
SoulLord
Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword7/Eldritch Knight7
Base Attack Bonus +18/+13/+8/+3
Caster Level 14th
Feats: Arcane Preparation, Arcane Strike (asap), Energy Admixture (sonic), Quicken Spell
Prepare several quickened 3rd level spells ahead of time.
1) Quickened 3rd level spell
2) Normal straight damage dealing spell (keep pressure on)
3) Move action to channel a 4th-6th level spell
OPTIONAL ADDITION Contingency set to activate magic missile cast when channel ability is used.
Set up a few contingencies and prepare a few quickened 2nd-3rd level spells and you can do this reliably several times.
In fact, using all 3 7th-level spell slots for quickened fireballs, casting contingency 3 times for magic missile using channel as a trigger, and channelling 3 times with sonic admixtured scorching ray would produce these effects three times (damages averaged):
35 fire (fireball) + 15 fire and 15 sonic (admixtured scorching ray) + 18 (channelled magic missile) + 18 (normally casted magic missile) = 101 total damage assuming all averages. This can be done three times. 128-ish high average, 74-ish low average.
If the Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword7/Eldritch Knight7 prepares this sort of combo two times per day, that's an average of 202 ish (medium average) damage distrubuted wherever. Then he can turn around and launch a full attack with Arcane Strike using remaining spell slots and seriously put hurting's on critters coming up to him in melee (his AC is dramatically better because ignoring 25% ASF and wearing mithral full plate means no ASF period, and adding a large shield to enhance a little further raises AC without any ASF).
but you could well put a 4th level spell on the contingency like
polymorph or haste
on an aditional note why paladin 2?
isn't another level of eldritch knight better?
SoulLord
on an aditional note why paladin 2?
isn't another level of eldritch knight better?
SoulLord
I thinks he wants Divine Grace (Cha to saves)...
The two levels of paladin give you one of the nice boost in saves this build benefits from (particularly a badly needed bonus to Reflex saves). Divine Grace is simply beautiful, allows you to add Charisma to saves, and since you should have at least Charisma 18 by 16th level or so, that's a free +4 bonus to all three saves. You have to remember, for a sorcerer odd levels give them nothing spell-wise, so losing a d10 for a d6 and gaining one more spell level that will only earn a couple more spells isn't worth (in my opinion) the boost in saves and lay hands on (self-healing).
Even mechanically, with only 4 levels of sorcerer you still need either another 2 base attack and weapon/armor proficiencies to qualify for spellsword or another two levels of sorcerer with the broken Militia feat (forgotten realms exclusive) and sacrifice armor proficiencies. This build is a tank though, so weapon and armor proficiencies, self-healing, save boosts, high HP and attack, and of course great spell bonuses make this a very good tank gish.
If you're caught in a pinch, after all, a Tenser's Transformation is always good to keep around, for while you can't cast spells your combat ability increases dramatically, putting you for the duration of the spell at almost a higher level then an equal level straight barbarian raging. Scary.
Merits: Ignore Arcane Spellfailure, Channel Spell (by far the best feature), Full BAB, d8 HD, two high saves
Drawbacks: Every even level doesn't increase spellcasting, the biggest setback.
Good levels to jump out after: 1st level provides a +1 to BAB, ability to ignore a little Arcane Spell Failure, a boost to Fortitude and Will, and a level of spellcasting. 5th level allows for even better armor-wearing ability and Channel spell rocks no matter how you look at it. 9th level spellswords allow you most of the class abilities, good BAB and saves, and of course you by now ignore most arcane spell failure (30%, now where's that adamantine full plate...). 10th level gives the shining gold of this PrC by allowing up to two channellings of spells, a truly devastating ability that gets more dangerous at high levels.
Good drop-levels: Any even level is a decent drop level, as you gain no real "benefits" and each even level delays your spellcasting progression. -cough- Having Complete Warrior would make it a lot easier to make better assessments of drop levels so help would be appreciated here...
Good lead ins: Fighter2/Wizard4, Paladin2/Sorcerer4
----------------------------------------------
Dragonslayer
Merits: Fear immunity, energy resistance, Damage reduction, Full BAB, d8 HD, two high saves and a bonus to the class's weak save
Drawbacks: Every even level doesn't increase spellcasting, the biggest setback.
Good levels to jump out after: 1st level is good for a boost to Fortitude and Will and a +1 to Base Attack, immunity to fear, and a level of spellcasting. 5th level is good for full energy resistance 5 and another spell level, and 6th level is good for another point of damage reduction and for the free feat (Lightning Reflexes). If you're going to 9th level you have another spell level and another point of Damage Reduction tacked on, but you also may as well take the 10th level and gain energy resistance 10 and the ability to use true strike as a move action.
Good drop-levels: Any even level is a decent drop level, as you gain no real "benefits" and each even level delays your spellcasting progression. Levels 2, 4, and 8 are all useless, honestly. 6th level is alright, but neither greatly beneficial nor important simply because of its lack of spellcasting progression.
Good lead ins: Fighter2/Wizard4/Spellsword1, Paladin4/Sorcerer2. This PrC seems to be one to dip into later levels or shoot out for soon as possible and add on the extra spellcasting levels afterwards with Eldritch Knight or simply more Sorcerer levels.
EDIT: Added "good drop-level" segment.
edit: On a note about the dual...umm so now it's a wizard AND a fighter against a gish? How is that a dual? Just a wizard vs a gish...gish anti-magic zone...the wizard runs or dies, gish wins. fighter vs gish, gish casts improved invis and kills fighter. Gish vs fighter AND mage, yeah your right the two people win vs the one...umm the point? It doesn't mean anything since in all likelyhood your gish probably has cleric back up and rogue and a fighter and probably a full caster to go up against something similar...so as I said moot point. FYI gish vs cleric = one dead gish. Assuming you have access to 7th+ level spells.
Also most people use Dragonslayer because it gives heavy armor proficiency which is needed for Spellsword. I would also say that very rarely is more than one level used. Therefore the prefix would most likely be Militia Wizard 6/EK 2. The other thing about Dragonslayer is that it requires two sub-optimal feats. Dodge is ok, but not top priority for a Gish, and Iron Will is redundant with good Will save classes.
I like that you have started to evaluate these things, I'm just trying to help add info.
~hf
Well speed depends on how far the campaiagn is going. If the game is planned to end at 20 or go epic, then you really should plan for the long run. If your games end around 10-15 range, go for speed. Besides the "long" way into spellsword is a grand whole dif of 1 level + some HP lose later in exchange for 1 cl. The last build could easily get a level of fighter to get into spellsword faster with no problems since CL 15 vs 16 isn't too horrible a difference, but the first two, the whole point is to get 9th level spells before epic in one and the other is to use dual channel with 7th level spells (like finger o dead and various meta magiced damaged spells). In those cases, the lost CL is a big deal. Even if the third build went with fighter 2/wizard 4/spellsword 5/ek9, it would be sub par...although I do like that the BAB increases to 18. But then again practice spell caster doesn't give me CL 20 for some spells that would be useful. Oh well.
I guess "speed" is a matter of opinion then. Regardless, it must be remembered that the "whole point" of gish is not to get 9th level spells, it's to make a good fighter-type with spell backup, not a good caster with martial backup.
edit: On a note about the dual...umm so now it's a wizard AND a fighter against a gish? How is that a dual? Just a wizard vs a gish...gish anti-magic zone...the wizard runs or dies, gish wins. fighter vs gish, gish casts improved invis and kills fighter. Gish vs fighter AND mage, yeah your right the two people win vs the one...umm the point? It doesn't mean anything since in all likelyhood your gish probably has cleric back up and rogue and a fighter and probably a full caster to go up against something similar...so as I said moot point. FYI gish vs cleric = one dead gish. Assuming you have access to 7th+ level spells.
I didn't know there was every a duel... I mentioned it with the assumption that if a party is fighting a caster with notable spellcasting ability then there is more then likely "meatshield" backup, or in the case of an NPC party a full-fledged fighter type. I don't like the idea of one-on-one duels and assuming there are only one-on-one duels because that's not how most campaigns/adventures are played.
To handforged
Shadow mage, your spellsword critique should mention that every odd level is a good drop level because the next even level will not provide a caster level.
Also most people use Dragonslayer because it gives heavy armor proficiency which is needed for Spellsword. I would also say that very rarely is more than one level used. Therefore the prefix would most likely be Militia Wizard 6/EK 2. The other thing about Dragonslayer is that it requires two sub-optimal feats. Dodge is ok, but not top priority for a Gish, and Iron Will is redundant with good Will save classes.
I like that you have started to evaluate these things, I'm just trying to help add info.
Hm, that would be a different category, probably called "drop levels" or some such. I'll go ahead and edit the post to add that, since it is a good idea.
Dragonslayer is a good PrC, worth it if you take a Fighter4 or Paladin4 and Sorcerer2 route, following with three levels to five levels of spellsword and any remaining levels in EK. I see it more as a "heavyweight" Gish PrC. Here's an example build.
Paladin4/Sorcerer2/Dragonslayer5/Spellsword5/EK4
BAB +19
CL 12
This would yield +19 Base Attack and 12 caster levels, and while comparatively weak magically this guy is very much a tank. He ignores 20% arcane spell failure, has spell channel, energy resistance and minor damage reduction, fear immunity, and superb Fortitude and Will saves (lightning reflexes would be nice). He heals himself and gets a bonus to saves that raises them even more. If he gets Extra Turning and a few Divine feats to turn his turning attempts into more useful abilities, this guy can be a serious threat to enemies. Heck, if his Wisdom is just high enough he could even bring in a Divine Favor since a 4th level Paladin only justs start casting spells.
The above is an example of why the class confuses me, I don't see it as something that would have a greater benefit to take at early or at late levels. The free fear immunity is always wonderful, and it's obvious a 1 level dip is useful. Same goes with a Spellsword though. Spellsword simply requires easily acquirable skills rather then not-so-useful feats.
Anything involving Militia I will leave out. It's too focused in one particular setting and I want these evaluations to be a little broader.
If you could rewrite it, would you mind giving me a sample? I'm oddly at loss for words at the moment, as I'm not exactly sure what should be changed.
- It gives ignore full arcane spell failure at lvl1
- It's reqs are met with Fighter 1 / Wiz 1 (can't be sorcerer) and 8 ranks in craft(stoneworking)
- 01122 BAB, but you don't have to take the 3rd and 5th broken skills just a single level dip allows to carry a fullplate and a tower shield.
Why aren't the builds something like:
Fighter 4 / Wizard 1 / Runesmith 1 / Eldritch Knight ...
for 18 BAB
or
Fighter 1 / Wizard 4 /Runesmith 1 / EK...
for almost full spellcaster progression?
Edit: If it's because you hate dwarves, you can also be any Giant, Humanoid or monstruous humanoid and take.
Fighter 3/ Wizard 1/ Stoneblessed 1/ Runesmith 1 / EK...
I haven't heard enough about specific prerequisites and abilities to be able to make any runesmith builds. My 3.5 books are extremely limited (MM, DMG, PHB, Drac.) so gish builds I make are typically using some mix of something found on those books and my 3.0 books.
Would you mind posting some information about the runesmith? Not enough to get in legal fights with WotC mind you, but enough that someone who has never seen the PrC can make a solid evaluation of it.
Also, remember this: Gish builds want as much BAB as possible. That one level dip doesn't give any BAB and likely gives low HD. Another point, wizards (with a few rare exceptions) generally don't make very good gish because they don't have the volume of spells castable in examples like those I listed in post #73.
Gish builds want as much BAB as possible. That one level dip doesn't give any BAB and likely gives low HD. Another point, wizards (with a few rare exceptions) generally don't make very good gish because they don't have the volume of spells castable in examples like those I listed in post #73.
Oh, I thought the armor thingie would be great, But I didn't suppose having sorcerer progression was considered an advantage for the Gish.
HD:d6
Runesmith discussed
Shurg, I guess I find higher level spells more useful as a front liner then you do...and really with the spellsword 10 build, the only reason I eacked out the CL is for the dual prismatic spray trick once I found you you can spell channel prismatic spray hehe. Gotta admit it's a great you die now trick.
I'd rather be like the 2ed fighter mage...good martial character with good caster back up (or vs versa is you wanted)...yeah I'm greedy :D .
Ftr 2/Wiz 4:
HP: 28 hp (10 + 6 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3)
BAB: +4 (+2 plus +2)
Saves: Fort +4, Reflex +1, Will +4
Feats: 2 Bonus Feats
Spells: 2nd Level
Ftr 1/Wiz 5:
HP: 25 hp (10 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3)
BAB: +3 (+1 plus +2)
Saves: Fort +3, Reflex +1, Will +5
Spells: 3rd Level
If you never return to Fighter, how do you make up the hit point loss? Or you could take the Toughness feat (3 hp which is the same as 1 more fighter level and 1 fewer wizard level).
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The Spellsword isn't just the backbone of most because of its special abilities, it is also just so easy and fast to get into. The survivability of going Fighter 2 (or Paladin 2) then Primary Arcane Caster (PAC) 4 is much higher than going mixed.
It is a difficult decision to go PAC 4 then going to Fighter or Paladin because you change gears from Primary Caster to "Generalist", and unless your party has another PAC, you could be robbing your group of its PAC.
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PAC: Primary Arcane Caster. I apologize for not defining it every time I used it.
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Duel: a fight between two parties (individuals, groups, etc).
Dual: two of a kind doing something (Dual Boot, Dual Cannons, Dual Swords... etc).
On a side note if easy and fast is your pre-req for a good gish PrC, EK should be the top of your list as wizard 5 gets you in it with militia feat. I'm sorry, but class special abilities is what does make spellsword so good...the fact it's easy to get into is a bonus.
Bah, you should tell the party you plan to go gish anyways so if they want a PAC, they'll just have to have another one that doesn't take mindbender or fatespinner. Although some gish builds do make passible PAC.
Edit: ---------Ignore next paragraph
--------------Ftr 3/Wiz 3:
HP: 31 hp (10 + 6 + 6 + 3 + 3 + 3)
BAB: +4 (+3 plus +1)
Saves: Fort +4, Reflex +2, Will +4
Feats: 3 Bonus Feats
Spells: 2nd Level
Edit: ----Come on, keep going there's nothing to see here-----
Ftr 2/Wiz 4:
HP: 28 hp (10 + 6 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3)
BAB: +4 (+2 plus +2)
Saves: Fort +4, Reflex +1, Will +4
Feats: 2 Bonus Feats
Spells: 2nd Level
Ftr 1/Wiz 5:
HP: 25 hp (10 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3)
BAB: +3 (+1 plus +2)
Saves: Fort +3, Reflex +1, Will +5
Spells: 3rd Level
I can understand using 3/3 or 1/5, but 2/4?!? seems a lose-lose situation.
Edit: Ohhh, the shame. :embarrass
I've not read the full thread but... Why aren't you using Runesmith?
Hmm... I don't know...
Oh wait, first page:
Spellhammer
Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 4/Spellsword 1/Eldritch knight 10
BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1
Caster Level: 18
Saves: +16/+5/+13
Special: Must be a Dwarf, Familiar, Rune magic.
The con bonus helps to offset the low HD. Grab some Mechanus gear armor, an Animated Tower shield, and go wild!!!
:P
And Zan, are you being sarcastic about the 1/5 vs 2/4 vs 3/3 thing?
3/3 don't get more bonus feats then 2/4. They don't get more BAB. Their saves are only one better, and their HP are only three better. And they're a caster level behind!
Of course, I would probably go Barb 1/Ftr 1/Wiz 4 given the choice. Rage can really help a low-level multiclass wizard, as does the fast movement and 2 HP.
And Zan, are you being sarcastic about the 1/5 vs 2/4 vs 3/3 thing?
Ohhhh, the shame. :embarrass
I'm sleepy. I just got up after sleeping only 4 hours.
No. Don't look at me!
etc...
Next time, first coffee, then forum.
Oh, and btw, I will discuss the Spellhammer's 4 lvls instead of one, but I'll take my breakfast first. :D
Oh, I thought the armor thingie would be great, But I didn't suppose having sorcerer progression was considered an advantage for the Gish.
HD:d6
For that same d6 you could both raise a caster level and a point of BAB in eldritch knight, assuming you're already past that first "dead" level. Consider this: it isn't so much sorcerer progression, but caster progression that is important. Sorcerer is just more useful because of how many spells it can cast, which is what's needed in gish builds.
Avg of 3 hp is so not a big deal for me...but then again I make frequent use of vampiric touch...hence getting 3rd level faster = better for me. Higher CL also means more meta magiced vampiric touch...It's basically my main tactic of staying in front line. The one feat and BAB hurts, but the CL I find more useful.
Then you're not playing a gish. You're playing a melee-optimized wizard. I see no exception to this without using Militia -twitch-, taking a couple levels of EK, then a quick dip into spellsword for however long.
On a side note if easy and fast is your pre-req for a good gish PrC, EK should be the top of your list as wizard 5 gets you in it with militia feat. I'm sorry, but class special abilities is what does make spellsword so good...the fact it's easy to get into is a bonus.
Ignoring how I personally percieve the feat Militia (forgotten realms exclusive, to remind you), what good is that sort of build? Militia Wizard5/EK5 gets you +7/+2 BAB, Caster Level 9, and pisspoor hp. Which doesn't mean much until the maximized fireball hits. Or the energy admixtured one (ouch). Or when you realize a maximized magic missle just took you down 25 hp with minimal effort and likely repeatable results. You don't have any armor proficiency so you can't even get into spellsword unless you do a level dip into dragonslayer or a similar PrC. It's not just about speed, it's about workability too. A front-lining high bab mid cl (13-15) gish can just as easily make better use of vampiric touch then your example build.
Bah, you should tell the party you plan to go gish anyways so if they want a PAC, they'll just have to have another one that doesn't take mindbender or fatespinner. Although some gish builds do make passible PAC.
No gish could pass for a full primary caster and be gish at the same time. Martial first, spell second. However, a party with a PAC and a gish and a fighter type or two is definitely going to rock because gish tend to synergize with an entire party. It's why I like them, personally, because not only can I fight and pop people with reach weapons but I can also use that reach to stay out of range enough to safely (relatively speaking) cast big-bang spells and buffs on myself/my allies.
If I were to continue my paladin example (a personal favorite gish build, don't know who originally introduced me to it) and inserted it into a sample party of, say, six, this is what the party should/would probably look like:
1 Primary Arcane Caster (not necessarily straight wizard/sorcerer, but straight caster)
2 Cleric/Druid type (again, not necessarily straight but spellcasting and mid base-attack continues)
3 Fighter type
4 Fighter type
5 Rogue/Scout type
6 Gish (this example being Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword5/EK8/Dragonslayer1)
Gish stats: BAB +18, CL 15, Average HP 108 (Con 14) (2x5.5 + 4x2.5 + 5x4.5 + 8x3.5 + 1x5.5), Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Arcane Preparation, Quicken Spell
Frontline occupied to two fighter types, maybe rogue type if its focus is melee sneak attacks (flanking). Cleric/druid type can be just as frontline and occassionally take the 5ft step back to cast buffs/heals. Assuming a three-man-line, gish stands behind middle guy and uses reach weapon to smack around enemies and stay out of reach of them, providing cover for the cleric/druid if anybody tries to engage him after he's taken his step back. He full-attacks one round, next round uses a quicken-spell combo (see above, post #74 ish), full attacks next round, next casts an admixtured spell, then next attacks once and channels a spell.
This sort of strategy is good in cramped conditions as it keeps the primary caster out of danger but protected by the reach weapon of the gish (in dungeons this is particularly effective) and the rest of the party benefits from any aura affects (including the paladin/dragonslayer's aura). In this example the gish is the ultimate support role, but with a change of weapon strategy (gish into melee, cleric back into reach-weapon role) then the gish can make definite use of his good armor proficiency and ignore 20% ASF to cast vampiric touch or any number of other good "poiint blank" spells (cone effects in particular.
Remember, gish = warrior with spell backup.
For that same d6 you could both raise a caster level and a point of BAB in eldritch knight, assuming you're already past that first "dead" level. Consider this: it isn't so much sorcerer progression, but caster progression that is important. Sorcerer is just more useful because of how many spells it can cast, which is what's needed in gish builds.
Yes, but without the one level dip into runesmith you need Spellsword progression to wear decent armor, and SS has a really poor spell progression beyond 1st lvl.
I agree in leaving the rest of runesmith lvls (BAB -2, EK HD, "give" spells, permanent rune broken ability) for "armored wizard" characters. However, being able to distribute 3 or 4 spells among the non-casters in the party for them to cast at any moment is quite a synergy.
For that same d6 you could both raise a caster level and a point of BAB in eldritch knight, assuming you're already past that first "dead" level. Consider this: it isn't so much sorcerer progression, but caster progression that is important. Sorcerer is just more useful because of how many spells it can cast, which is what's needed in gish builds.
I might be misinterpreting you, but you seem to think that Runesmith is a sub-optimal class for a gish, due to the lower BAB.
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch knight 5 - caster level 10, BAB +9, HP 1d10+6d4+5d6.
Ftr 1/Wiz 4/Runesmith 2/EK 5 - caster level 10, BAB +9, HP 1d10 +4d4 +7d6. Looses a wizard feat to gain +2 HP and the ability to wear all armor without ASF.
Against Ftr 2/Wiz 4/EK 6 (CL 9, BAB +10, HP 2d10+4d4+6d6), the runesmith looses a few HP and one point of BAB. In exchange for the ability to wear full plate and a tower shield with no ASF at all, from level 6 on. Lightyears ahead of a spellsword. I really can't see single point of BAB is worth the short- and long-term loss of power.
Ftr 1/Wiz 4/Runesmith 2/EK 5 - CL 10, BAB +9, HP 1d10 +4d4 +7d6. Looses a wizard feat to gain +2 HP and the ability to wear all armor without ASF.
Ftr 1 /Wiz4 /RS 1 /SS 1/ EK 5 - CL 10, BAB +9 HP 1d10 + 4d4 + 6d6 + 1d8. Looses a wizard feat to gain +2 HP and the ability to wear all armor without ASF. And +1 hp, +1 Fort, +1 Will. In exchange for useless "stonecraft expertise".
Yes, but without the one level dip into runesmith you need Spellsword progression to wear decent armor, and SS has a really poor spell progression beyond 1st lvl.
I agree in leaving the rest of runesmith lvls (BAB -2, EK HD, "give" spells, permanent rune broken ability) for "armored wizard" characters. However, being able to distribute 3 or 4 spells among the non-casters in the party for them to cast at any moment is quite a synergy.
I don't know about leaving the remaining levels, but simply by virtue of knowing it has low base attack then yes, I'd leave the remaining levels and even the first. You have to remember that spellsword's highlight is channel spell, not ignore ASF, although the latter is a very nice bonus. The two good saves, better hit die, ability to ignore ASF and channel spells is what makes the spellsword so attractive versus a one-level-dip into a PrC that won't increase BAB and you have to be a wizard for (and I assume dwarf?)
I might be misinterpreting you, but you seem to think that Runesmith is a sub-optimal class for a gish, due to the lower BAB.
That's exactly right. Gish are warriors with spell backup (I feel like I've said this a lot before...) and thus require the higher BAB to be at their best. As far as the word "suboptimal" goes, I have to again state that I've not seen the PrC before and know only what you all have told me about it. I imagine it can be optimized, it's just not one of the greater "gish" builds.
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch knight 5 - caster level 10, BAB +9, HP 1d10+6d4+5d6.
Ftr 1/Wiz 4/Runesmith 2/EK 5 - caster level 10, BAB +9, HP 1d10 +4d4 +7d6. Looses a wizard feat to gain +2 HP and the ability to wear all armor without ASF.
This is a very bad example, actually, of comparing a thought out runesmith to a half*** gish build. Fighter1/Wizard6/EK5 is a bad build to begin with. drop the 6th level of Wizard for a level of Spellsword for ignoring 10% ASF, boosting both Fortitude and Will, and with the loss of two spell levels (for a total of four) you can grab five levels of spellsword for better saves, HP, channel spell, and of course the ignoring of 20% ASF. Eldritch Knight is not the gish class, it's the filler class for gish builds.
Against Ftr 2/Wiz 4/EK 6 (CL 9, BAB +10, HP 2d10+4d4+6d6), the runesmith looses a few HP and one point of BAB. In exchange for the ability to wear full plate and a tower shield with no ASF at all, from level 6 on. Lightyears ahead of a spellsword. I really can't see single point of BAB is worth the short- and long-term loss of power.
It isn't the single point of BAB, it's the lack of providing a viable, fairly optimized example of a gish build to compare it to. I admit that you can probably build a very solid gish example using runesmith, but it's too restricted from what I've seen. You have to be a wizard, already not the best of gish, and I imagine you have to be a specific race as well. Those points divide my views evenly between "it could be optimal" and "it doesn't seem optimal".
Gish is the term used for any fighter/mage build where the character's focus in both spellcasting and martial combat is at least somewhat equal and where both aspects of the character are viable.
Martial focused example: Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword7/Eldritch Knight7
BAB +18
CL 14th
Spell focused example: (Militia) Wizard5/Eldritch Knight10/Dragonslayer1/Runesmith1/Spellsword1/Archmage2
BAB +15
CL 19th
Equal/Balanced example: Fighter1/Sorcerer6/Spellsword3/Eldritch Knight10
BAB +17
CL 17th
While I personally don't agree with the Militia feat as presented in Players Guide to Faerun, I have no problem with the use of it in other people's builds so long as it creates an optimized and well-designed build through the majority of the build's level progression. I understand that other's also have limits on their resources and that may be one of their only sources.
I consider CL 15+ to be passible as a PAC. Not optimial, but passible. So you don't do the front line fighting bit, but if your party need it, they need it.
Also the spell focused one would do better with 1 level of blade singer if you can as that raises the BAB by +1 for 4 attacks...eventually hehe.With IAF 10% you have mithril shirt and shield which sould be enough armor for most.
I'm only lightly familiar with the 3.0 bladesinger (not a fan of it personally, but I DO have access to it), and zero familiarity with the 3.5 bladesinger. I know it gives full BAB, two good saves, and spellcasting like a spellsword does but that's it. It wouldn't add to BAB at all, unfortunately. Take away any one class except wizard and you drop BAB -1, adding a level of bladesinger would simply add another +1 and it would remain the same. Besides, if you're "spell-focused" gish (maybe I'll start abbreviating to sfg...nah, doesn't ring well, though sf gish is alright...) then the two levels of archmage are wonderful. Arcane Fire, Mastery of Shaping or Elements, and Spellpower's always nice. A little feat restrictive but that's fine, you have a bad-*** spellcaster who's essentially an arcane cleric (nigh-full spell progression and +15 BAB).
Spell focused example: (Militia) Wizard5/Eldritch Knight10/Dragonslayer1/Runesmith1/Spellsword1/Archmage2
BAB +15
CL 19th
I'd say:
Fighter 1 /Wizard 4 /RS 1 / EK 10 / RS 4
BAB +15
CL 18th
Two free limited wish/day.
Paladin 2/Warmage 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9 is enough more solid and survivable then the other PAC's. Why? Because it has the full gamut of damage spells, spontaneous casting of them, can use Light Armor and Light Shield between Levels 1 and 6. What this really means is that...
1 Pal 1: Longsword, Heavy Shield, Scale Mail
2 Pal 2: Longsword, Heavy Shield, Chain Shirt
3 Pal 2/Wmg 1: Longsword, Light Shield (or Buckler), Chain Shirt
...
6 Pal 2/Wmg 4:
Basically, Armor. Chain Shirt is almost as good as Mage Armor (it doesn't protect against Incorporeal attacks).
Paladin 2/Warmage 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9 Basically, Armor. Chain Shirt is almost as good as Mage Armor (it doesn't protect against Incorporeal attacks).
Pal 2 / Warmage 3 / RS 1 / SS 1 / EK 10 / SS 3? :D
Mountainplate + Tower shield.
Ok, ok, sorry. I won't do it again.
2. Wizard
3. Wizard
4. Wizard
5. Wizard
6. Wizard
7. Wizard
8. Human Paragon
9. Human Paragon
10. Dragonslayer
11. Spellsword
12. Spellsword
13. Spellsword
14. Eldricth Knight
15. Eldricth Knight
16. Eldricth Knight
17. Eldricth Knight
18. Eldricth Knight
19. Eldricth Knight
20. Eldricth Knight
What about this build? It's focused on obtaining a good number of feats. I wanted to take as many craft and forge feats to always get the items I need by creating them.
Master of Whips
Fighter2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword5/Lasher4/Eldritch Knight5
Base Attack Bonus: +18
Caster Level: 12th
Saves: +13/+7/+10
Hit Dice/Average Hit Points: 2d10 + 4d4 + 5d8 + 10d8 + 5d6 (110 hp without Con)
Rod, like all the extra feats, tho I'd spend 'em differently.
Shadow, great idea, don't forget to polymorph into something large with high Strength, more than one pair of legs, and crazy reach. That'll help tripping.
Now, if you'll excuse me, the house is flooding.
Love Florida weather...Wizard6/Fighter1/Spellsword3/Serpent Slayer8
BAB:+13/+8/+3
Caster Level: 17
Saves: +12/+5/+15
Special: Ignore 20% Arcane Spell Failure, Channel Spell, Summon Familiar, Loads of anti-reptilian humanoid abilities, good skills, and an average of 83 hp before Con bonuses.
Requirements: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Casting, skill/spellcasting/proficiency requirements. Take Fighter first level, to get most HP and make qualifying for Spellsword easier.
Books: Player's Handbook, Complete Warrior, Serpent Kingdoms.
This is a variation of the Fangbreaker build I did early. As a wizard it has less spells per day (and thus less Arcane Strike) but it still gets 9th level spells (like the Fangbreaker). It loses a few Serpent Slayer abilities but gets channel spell and better ignore ASF.
I suppose this (as well as the Fangbreaker) isn't so much a true Gish (that is, a warrior with arcane backup) as a spellcaster who's tough enough to survive a bit more. Not a front-line warrior by any means, but how little it takes to kill a wizard or sorc if they're unlucky or caught off guard annoys me.
Ranger 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Prestige Bard 1/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 1/Prestige Bard 1/Master Harper 10
BAB:+16/+11/+6/+1
Caster Level: 18
Saves: +10/+15/+20
Special: Ignore 10% Arcane Spell Failure, Bladesong Style, excellent skills, Rogue HP (average), Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Music, Aura of Courage, Damage Bonus vs Dragons, Harper Knowledge, Craft Harper Item, Mielikki's truth, Eldrath's landtouch, Lycanbane, Milil's ear, Lliiras' hand, Deneir's orel, Tymora's smile, Oghma's echo.
Feat requirements: Dodge, Combat Expertise, Combat Casting, Weapon Focus (longsword or rapier), Alertness, Iron Will.
Skill requirements: Know (local) 12 ranks, Bluff 8 ranks, Diplomacy 8 ranks, Perform (sing or dance) 12 ranks, Perform (sing or dance) 2 ranks, Sense Motive 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks, Balance 2 ranks, Concentration 4 ranks, Tumble 2 ranks.
Books: Player's Handbook, Complete Warrior, Draconomicon, Wizards web site, Unearthed Arcana.
This is, to me, the best gish I've ever seen who has Hide and Move Silently totally buffed up. A true Ranger gish with loads of skills. Sure Master Harper demands a lot in terms of feats, but I think it's well worth it.
Note: This build has, without flaws, 13 feats. Trully awesome. Use the familiar cheese to get Alertness and you've got a LOT of free feats to really give your character a lot of flavour.
Humm...usually in our groups, the job of killing the other PAC isn't the PAC, it's the fighter's job. The PAC's job is to handle the goons and protection. CL 15 losing the 5 CL spread out (i.e. not level 10-15 with no CL), then you can act as a PAC...not good that you are, but you can fill in while you wait for somebody else to play a PAC.
Hm...neither optimal nor sound in strategy. Each member contributes best by working as a group, so letting an individual play a role against another individual (your fighter vs enemy PAC for example) is not a well thought-out plan unless he has been seriously spell-buffered. The role of a martial gish is to sit in melee with the fighters, the role of the spell-focused gish is to sit behind the main line with a reach weapon or ranged weapon, and balanced gish should alternate between those two. This allows syncronization with the rest of the party, because why send one fighter against one mage when you can send a fighter and his buddies against the mage (one buddy spell-channelling and casting defensive/offensive/summoning spells).
This seems like a good time to focus on a few tactics for the three gish subtypes. If anybody has anything to add or dispute don’t hesitate to let me know.
Martial Gish Focus
Combat Formation: Obviously the focused "spellsword" gish (a gish who focuses on high BAB with spellsupport, much like the Spellsword PrC), this being a more martial build, has a sound place as either a rear ranged support or up on the front line. The Spellsword PrC's channel spell makes this arguably the best prestige class martial gish can acquire. Spell channel is very dangerous and very powerful. Channelling a cone of cold works best when no allies are in the way of the cone, so ideally you want to be the "point-man" in a party's formation. Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger/Rogue support (hell, buffed cleric works too) from both sides works well and if thought out carefully prevents flanking assuming your opponents are all in front of you. This sort of V formation with the gish as the point allows the remaining partiy to not only provide ample protection for one another, but their "lead man" is a blaster with HP and BAB to boot. If he takes too bad a beating, he can fall back with at least two other characters protecting his "retreat" to the rear.
Conversely, the martial gish is also extremely effective in the back of the party, completely ignoring the front-line and instead focusing on archery or ranged spells. Standing next to the mage with Quick Draw, a sword at your side, and a bow in hands will keep yourself prepared to protect the mage and still providing valuable aid in combat. This is a very good place in the party for low-hp gish builds, even if they are martial, and with a simple buff (usually not necessary but nice to have anyway) the low-hp martial gish can provide awesome bow-support.
Strategy and Tactics: While tactics are battle-by-battle formulas for success, so to speak, strategy is slightly larger in scale. However, since in a campaign you don’t usually have much of a choice (DM’s the “god”, after all), we will refer to individual combat maneuvers as “tactics” and group maneuvers as “strategy”.
As a martially-bent gish, your priority in the build is high base attack with spell-support. That means that, whether in melee (tanks) or at the rear (lightweights), you will likely be very effective buffing yourself and others and hitting enemies with your weapons. If you want attack spells, focus on spells that guarantee hits (ie magic missile) and spells that require ranged touch attacks (ie scorching ray). Otherwise, spells to buff your ability scores (series of level two spells) and that provide good defense are always helpful.
Tactics: Martially-focused gish are extremely dangerous. They’re usually close to full BAB with roughly 11-14 spellcasting levels. Imagine a Fighter with Tenser’s transformation. That said, there are several tactics martial gish can employ to make them truly dangerous in combat.
- 1) Tanks- Focusing on the higher points of your abilities, Spellsword gish should always make use of channel spell. It allows you to essentially cast twice in a round, one to buff yourself, one to hurt your enemy. Next round you can strike harder (thanks to the buff) against a weaker foe. Tanks tend to have higher AC so striking them with an AoO is usually much harder. High-AC build should milk every drop of usefulness from their build and be up in melee, distracting the heck out of the enemy by having the balls to cast spells in melee and then turn around and swing a greatsword.
------ - 2) Middleweights- It’s not hard to be good out of full plate. Simple medium armor enhanced nicely is always effective to keep your AC relatively high, and you usually have an alright bonus from Dexterity. This automatically makes you more versatile. While you can’t stand in melee for as long as a tank-gish, you can also hit with a bow a little more effectively and for a little more damage. You can play both ranged and melee roles fairly well, and spells that augment this should be used often. Actually, middle-weight gish builds are very effective when paired with the various wall spells. Limiting how many foes can attack you and dealing with them first is a very sound tactic, and feat chains are excellent support as well. The spiked-chain feat group, feats focusing on reach weapons, and those enhancing archery are always nice to have and while you can’t have all three of these chains in gish builds, you only need one group. Spiked-chain trippers with cat’s grace and then Tenser’s transformation become arguably the scariest thing on the battlefield.
------ - 3) Lightweights- Light-weight martial builds are the best ranged gish available. Usually with lighter armor they have much higher Dexterity, so grab a bow and use it. Often. Sit behind the main fray and pelt away with archery-related feats and ranged touch spells for vicious effect. Magic missiles are invaluable to you, since they’re guaranteed hits and damage, and maximizing them for a free 25 damage is never a bad deal. Lightly-armored gish should not be in melee too often, though they should be able to hold their own for a few rounds if need be. Remember to quicken (via wizard gish or Arcane Preparation sorcerers) true strike to guarantee your hits, especially when using Rapid Shot or Many Shot, or any other feat that provides penalties to attacks for more attacks. Again buff spells are infinitely useful here.
Strategy: Group synergy is where gish specialize. Though no gish is defenseless out of an adventuring group, it’s when surrounded by allies the martial gish shines. Regardless of his role the martial gish is an invaluable combination of combat prowess and spell support (martial gish should not be attempting spell-duels with enemy casters).
- 1) Tanks- The tank’s usefulness is painfully obvious. Sit in the front line and blast cone spells at multiple enemies. Spells that deal high damage are your goal, if you want to even focus on attack-spells at all. Self-buff and group buff spells (mass bear’s endurance for example) make you a party favorite in a heartbeat, and by sticking next to the fighters of the group enemy focus is usually taken away from the caster at the rear of your group. Or, better yet, the enemy’s attention can be divided between the tank martial gish, the cleric, and/or the PAC. If all three are attacking/spellcasting for higher damage, the other characters are typically ignored in importance and the enemy is splitting their resources (divide...and conquer...).
------ - 2) Middleweights- Reach-weapons. Your friends will love you forever if they know they can retreat and still be covered, and all the while you’re safely out of melee (middleweight martial gish usually have less HP then their tank cousins). Mass buffs are even more useful for you then for the tank martial gish, because you can sit there casting them without fear of attacks of opportunity. However, you also have the option of falling back to spell support if you so choose (see my Master of Whips). With three feats you can become the best friend of the entire party when you randomly counter an enemy’s spells. Or simple ranged-touch spells (necromancies in particular) can provide ample spell support, and augmenting your caster with mental buffs (eagle’s splendor, fox’s cunning, owl’s wisdom, etc.) makes -his- spells more effective, thus increase his usefulness to a party. Middle-weight martial gish have too many individual roles in a party to list, but focusing on (using Master of Whips example) something like reach-weapon support, spell-support, and buff-spell support will make an incredibly effective gish that doesn’t have to be good alone since in a group he rocks.
------ - 3) Lightweights- Individual tactics versus group strategy changes little with lightweight martial gish. With the highest Dexterity and lowers armor bonus of the three types, your priority will be to remain in the back to protect the casters and provide (if necessary) retreat cover. Archery feats are helpful here, as is 3.0 haste. Really any spells that will improve your archeries will make you more useful to the group, so Precise Shot and Cat’s grace are must-haves. This class of martial gish is entirely defined by feat-selection, but archery feats are the most optimal since you should be at range during every combat. Sure a sword at the hip is nice, but with likely the lowest HP in the group you don’t want t make it a habit of sitting in melee when your party could suddenly find it’s PAC attacked by a dimension door-ing enemy. Ranged touch spells, shield, and magic missle should always be on your spell list.
Balanced and Spell-focus Gish coming soon
and 2nd the channel ability of the spellsword only affects whatever is hit by the sword you could channel a fireball and it would only affect the person hit by the channeled weapon.
ShadowMage do you have a msn(messanger) account?
SoulLord
[email]black_knight_reborn@hotmail.com[/email] is my MSN, by the way.
Still working on Balanced and Spell-Focused gish strategies/tactics.
Half-elf Sorcerer
STR 12
DEX 15
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 17
Class Progression:
Sorcerer 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 1/Arcane Archer 2/Eldritch Knight 10
I plan on getting Sorcerer to 6, going Fighter 1, going Spellsword 1, going Eldritch Knight for 1, Arcane Archer 2, then finishing up Eldritch Knight.
Chosen Feats: Somewhat organized by melee/long-range/spellcasting.
*Improved Inititative - It's nice having a better chance to go first.
*Spell Focus (Evocation) - What else would you put on an Imbued Arrow besides Evocation spells?
*Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) from Tome and Blood - +4 DC for Evocation, I think so.
*Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Divine - +4 Caster Level. May not add to my spells per day or spells known but it makes up for the fact that 4 levels of the classes I chose do not add to my arcane spellcasting class. 1 from Fighter, 1 from Eldritch Knight, 2 from Arcane Archer.
*Point Blank Shot - Requirement for Arcane Archer. I can also use the +1 to attack to make a long-range ray attack within 30 ft. Also, +1 damage.
*Precise Shot - Requirement for Arcane Archer.
*Weapon Focus (Bow) - Requirement for Arcane Archer. Leaning toward Longbow.
*Weapon Finesse - My DEX is better and will always be better than my STR.
*Arcane Strike - For those times I need to hit something in melee.
I know the Spell Focus and the Greater Spell Focus could be swapped out for something but I still like them. Arcane Strike is for the melee situation.
This doesn't include the +5 attribute points I'd get.
BAB - 17
Saves - 16/8/10
Caster Level - 16 (20 with Practiced Spellcaster)
All in all not that bad. I like the melee vs. long-range vs. spellcasting versatility. Almost like handforged's build but without the Paragon. Comments and suggestions welcome of course.
~hf
Chancing Chaos, I would look at the spells you plan on imbuing into your arrows before you pick your spell focus.
~hf
Well, as I said, I just chose Evocation because there are more AoE spells in Evocation that would benefit from a higher DC. If you have a suggestion I'd like to hear it.
I could always get Spell Focus in two different schools rather than concentrating only on one school.Spell focused gish I usually stay back and cast ranged spells at the enemy. Once they close in, unlease a hoard of vamp touch spell if applicable and get into melee...possibly using arcane strike.
SoulLord
Serpent Slayer
Strengths: d8 HD, +caster level every level, good Fort and Will saves, lots of strong abilities vs. reptilian humanoids (resistance and eventual immunity to their poisons and spell like abilities, ability to notice them better, eventual true strikes and smites), better skill list (not skill points per level) than sorc or wizard.
Weaknesses, Wizard BAB, best abilities only function against reptilian humanoids. May be too campaign specific for some DMs (which shouldn't be, every DM should love how Serpent Kingdoms fleshes out the yuan-ti and nagas and the like, can be applied to all campaign settings fairly easy).
There you go. SM, don't forget the occasional stealth-and-skills oriented gish (ATs except without the wussiness) like The Lone Drow's Master Harper.
Master Harper
Ranger 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Prestige Bard 1/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 1/Prestige Bard 1/Master Harper 10
BAB:+16/+11/+6/+1
Caster Level: 18
Saves: +10/+15/+20
Except that the BAB is +15, not +16. I do not know what Master Harper 10 grants you, but I'd go for Spellsword 3 and MH 8. Caster Level is 17th, but you do have +16 BAB and can wear a twilight mithril full plate with no ASF (even though it's a little bit off-concept IMO. But hey, why did you take Dragonslayer?). It should also increase your Fort save by one, plus, you get another bonus feat from Spellsword to compensate whatever you lose with the lack of Master Harper 9-10.
antimagic aura on enemy + Improved Invisibility + Tenser's Transformation = Sneak Attack every attack made against the downgraded enemy.
I'm leaning towards Jonathan's assessment that if a gish requires more then one spell to be effective in combat then it's not a gish, but I've seen some pretty wicked combos with a simple AT build. I'm not sure I could consider them gish though.
If there is enough consensus and drawn out proof, then I will add Rogue, Arcane Trickster, etc. Otherwise I can't see the builds being very gish-like at all.
Oh, and can somebody please pass on enough information on the Master Harper and the Everseken Tomb Guadian (I believe I got the name right...) prestige classes? From what I can tell the latter provides full BAB and spellcasting, which makes it good for really any gish build, and I'm not sure about the Master Harper.
Ah, and information on the Elf, Half Elf, and Human Paragons would be wonderuful too. Thanks in advance.
Serpent Slayer
Strengths: d8 HD, +caster level every level, good Fort and Will saves, lots of strong abilities vs. reptilian humanoids (resistance and eventual immunity to their poisons and spell like abilities, ability to notice them better, eventual true strikes and smites), better skill list (not skill points per level) than sorc or wizard.
Weaknesses, Wizard BAB, best abilities only function against reptilian humanoids. May be too campaign specific for some DMs (which shouldn't be, every DM should love how Serpent Kingdoms fleshes out the yuan-ti and nagas and the like, can be applied to all campaign settings fairly easy).
I made a build with Serpent Slayer as Serpent Kingdoms came out, but response wasn't so good this time.
Wizard 6/ Harper Mage 4/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 1/ Serpent Slayer 8 makes for a pretty tough Wizard.
Good Saves (13/5/19), 20 Level Spellcasting, more Base HP in Average than a Rogue or Bard. I've taken Skill Knowledge (Hide and Move Silently) at CL 6 (Harper Mage 1), to be able to max Listen, Spot, Hide and Move Silently, making a great Scout with all the Wizard Buffs. Unfortunately with a BAB of 11 it's no Gish at all, so I would say drop Serpent Slayer after Level 4, to get Poison Immunity (Complete, not only Reptilians!) and to optimize your Saves and BAB.
It's a great Addon for nearly every build to enhance overall Survivability!
God, I wish there was a prestige class upping spellcasting and death attack (polymorph foe into something with abysmal Con).
Strifeleader, from Faiths and pantheons. Requires 3rd level divine spells, but will advance any spellcasting class (7/10 spellcasting). At level 10, the DC for death attack goes up to 10 + 10 (class level) + 4 + int.
2 wizard
15 prestige bard:
bab: 14
Caster level: 15
Inspire courage: +4, 15/day, lots of skills
As for The Everseek Tomb Protector, or whatever the name be.... hmm... I don't quite remember what is it like, but it's certainly not full bab and CL progression.
Human Paragon and Elf Paragon are 3-level classes, gaining +2 BAB and +2 CL progression. Both use d8's for HD, both gain bonus feats (elf --> weapon focus in bow or sword) and +2 to any ability score (human), or +2 Int (elf).
a Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Nar Demonbinder 1/AT 6/PrC 2
has SA +6d6, some nice skills, +16 BAB, 8th level ND spells (CL 12th). The last PrC is open, but it must be a full BAB class to make it work. The variant Sneak Attack fighter would net you another +1d6 SA at 1st level.
Nar Demonbinder spell list is not that great, however.... but you still have access to paladin-like spells from BG to buff yourself.
heres an AT oriented gish
half-elf
wizard1 / ninja 5 / bladesinger 10 /AT 4
wizard 1 combat casting
ninja 1 (ninja dodge)
ninja 2 combat expertise
ninja 3
ninja 4
ninja 5 weapon focus rapier
bladesinger 1-10
arcane trickster 4
In the end bab 17 sl 9 5th lvl spells SA +5d6
and full bladesinger goodies
SoulLord
While Sang-Drax's build nets +16 BAB and nearly full Nar Demonbinder spellcasting, I don't consider that a very gish-type build. While it has martial offensive ability and access to fire storm, flame strike, greater dispelling, wall of fire, and summoning spells, there is nothing in the build to allow it armor usage without Arcane Spell Failure. Even spell-focused gish builds have the ability to ignore at least some arcane spell failure.
SoulLord's build is good but I don't consider it gish. A level 9 CL is just weak when you consider every other gish out there, which is why I made that little limit I mentioned above. The addition of AT is not only minimal usage of the PrC, it's impeding BAB progression (if a PrC by 4th level is only providing +2 to BAB, it's not really worth it).
EDIT: I will be adding Master Harper in a little while to the Prestige Classes section, and a provided link. I will also be adding the further definition of gish (minimum BAB and CL) if nobody has any objections.
Well just my two cents.
half-elf
wizard5 / ninja 5 / bladesinger 6 /AT 4
wizard 1 combat casting
ninja 1 (ninja dodge)
ninja 2 combat expertise
ninja 3
ninja 4
ninja 5 weapon focus rapier
bladesinger 1-6
*wizard 2-5
arcane trickster 4
* replace with more proper prestige class that grants caster levels
In the end bab 15 sl 12 6th lvl spells SA +5d6
and not so many bladesinger goodies
In my personal opinion for a gish one needs bab +16 and access to 4th level wizard spells but thats just me
SoulLord
Personally I don't think AT's should be considered gishes due to their poor BAB progression, at best they MIGHT be considered lightweight gishes.
I don't want to add wood to the fire, and I agree that a Gish must have at least 15 BAB and high level casting, (the build I presented in the first pages of the post meets those requirements), but I am not sure if the ability to wear armor defines a Gish, for example Bracers of Armor can give as much AC as a non-magical full plate, and you could add quite a lot more AC with dexterity than a Full-Plate. (also you could enchant them with abilities just like armors have) I also feel that as the characters get into higher levels, that AC becomes less necessary, while things like DR or Hardness, (from spells in the case of a gish generally), and high HP make much more of a difference than AC. Although ideally you would want both.
Well just my two cents.
The major thing, though, is what happens in an antimagic field? While your spells no longer work, a gish should still be able to defend himself. An opponent trapping you in an antimagic area makes you a good offensive fighter, with the exception that you aren't wearing ANY armor. Your AC is effectively 10 + Dex, and few gish will ever get a Dexterity modifier so good that they'll never need to wear armor period.
Well to fulfill your criteria then ill switch as needed but y still consider the previous version better
half-elf
wizard5 / ninja 5 / bladesinger 6 /AT 4
wizard 1 combat casting
ninja 1 (ninja dodge)
ninja 2 combat expertise
ninja 3
ninja 4
ninja 5 weapon focus rapier
bladesinger 1-6
*wizard 2-5
arcane trickster 4
* replace with more proper prestige class that grants caster levels
In the end bab 15 sl 12 6th lvl spells SA +5d6
and not so many bladesinger goodies
In my personal opinion for a gish one needs bab +16 and access to 4th level wizard spells but thats just me
SoulLord
This build is much better, actually. Rogue's base attack, +5d6 sneak attack, and the ability to buff yourself with 6th level spells (one particular Tenser's Transformation). Without magic you still have decent sneaking and sneak attacking ability, and with magic you can employ use of the strategy I had mentioned earlier with arcane tricksters.
The main beef I have with +16 as opposed to +15 as the minimum base attack comes down to this: a +16 BAB, 17 CL build versus a +15 BAB, 19 CL build. There is nothing that can convince me a character casting at CL 19 and having medium base attack is weak. The minimum you propose for 4th level spells essentially means a character can do this:
Fighter7/Wizard3/Spellsword10
Sure he's got great Base attack (+18) but his caster level is only 7th, with access to 4th level spells. This compared to a build with +18 BAB and access to 7th or 8th level spells is almost a pointless argument, unless the lower-CL build has some incredible abilities that compensate for its lack of magic the build simply isn't as effective as other gish builds.
That said, I'm going ahead and adding the minimum final BAB and CL for gish builds at 20th level must be +15 and access to 6th level spells.
I feel in addition to a high BAB and CL, a gish should also have a decent number of hps since at some point they will be in melee. A gish should have several d8's and maybe at least one d10 unless it's a ranger build to counter act the d4's you'll get from the wizard/sorcerer levels.
Personally I don't think AT's should be considered gishes due to their poor BAB progression, at best they MIGHT be considered lightweight gishes.
This isn't necessarily true though. There are many kinds of gish, and lightweight gish don't necessarily need high HP if they're casting 9th level spells. Or if they're buffing their archery ability and spell flinging from the back of the group effectively, they wouldn't need too much HP for that either. HP is something that so many spells/abilities/feats give it's not a huge concern, it's minimum BAB and spellcasting that is.
as for HP in my belief a gish should have plenty of them as he will be joining combat wheter he likes it or not (we dm's make sure of that)
SoulLord
Remember though, if a gish of any sort is caught in an antimagic area, then he'd better get his rear out of there and the rear ends of the rest of his party. Gish should never be alone in those type of situations.
The problem with judgin HP, though, is what happens when a character has 5+ levels in Eldritch Knight, a d6 class? Great filler class to be sure, the best from what I've seen, but does the lower HP make them any weaker when the hp can be made up for with Improved Toughness and Bear's Endurance?
I do agree with you SoulLord that any gish with less then +16 BAB is in trouble going into epic, but that sort of character will more then likely (absolutely better) have abilities/spellcasting to make up for it. My example of a +15 BAB, 19 CL character is one from the top of his food chain. A wizard with that qualifies for epic spellcasting feats at 21st level of whatever class he takes. Epic spellcasters are insanely powerful, so this cannot be discounted in gish. Less then +15 BAB though is less then medium BAB progression and as such is not even a moderate warrior, which is why I set +15 as the limit.
My point is that a build that emphasizes casting over melee should be able to get out of that sort of situation as good as caster would get out of that situation, (since that's pretty much what they are).
Finally assuming an Antimagic Field where to happen, then another caster generated it, (which unless the caster is another Gish), means that he would not dare combat, makes you pretty much immune to what the caster can do, (since all his spells cannot penetrate the field), or that there is at least one other melee character aiding the caster how casted the Antimagic field, (which is a 2 vs 1 situation so any character would be in trouble, assuming equal CR).
Note: I am not trying to rant or to make this personal, I just feel that any build that uses EK for 10 levels, is a Gish build even if it can't wear armor.
Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Nar Demonbinder 1/Arcane Trickster 4/Spellsword 3/Ninja 1
You may swap Ninja for the variant Fighter with sneak atack, and voilà:
+6d6 Sneak Attack
+17 BAB
Full NB casting (at 12th level, 16th with Practiced Spellcaster feat)
1 miserable bonus feat
-15% ASF (that means you can use a Twilight Mithril Full Plate)
Dark Blessing (divine grace)
Smite Good
Special Mount
10th level Blackguard casting (more buffs - Bull's Strength, Sadism, and Summon Undead to help flanking)
You must take Arcane Training to be able to cast Mage Hand to qualify for AT.
Is that good enough now? :P
Sure, it doesn't really fill the skill-monkey function in a given party, but it works. If it gets too hard to qualify to AT because of the skills, take Human Paragon 1 and drop the Ninja levels; Human Paragon 2-3 and drop Spellsword 2-3, sell your twilight mithril full plate and buy a bended quartz twilight full plate :D
Sure, you lose 1 BAB and +1d6 SA, but you don't have to take the cheesy Ninja and gain +2 to a stat. You also gain a bonus feat, but you've just lost one from Spellsword anyway.
As for teh AT thing... I don't see a way to make an AT gish unless you use Nar Demonbinder - or maybe Beholder Mage;
a Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Nar Demonbinder 1/AT 6/PrC 2
has SA +6d6, some nice skills, +16 BAB, 8th level ND spells (CL 12th). The last PrC is open, but it must be a full BAB class to make it work. The variant Sneak Attack fighter would net you another +1d6 SA at 1st level.
Nar Demonbinder spell list is not that great, however.... but you still have access to paladin-like spells from BG to buff yourself.
That would do well if that last PrC is spellsword or runesmith. Can it be done?
EDIT: D'oh, I'm slow.
Hell if you don't want too much SA then Xpal1/BG10/ND4/SS5 isn't bad.
I just don't like dwarves, however.
People really need to differentiate with gishes. Do you want warrior with spell backup? Or do you want a harder-to-kill caster?
Summon undead to help flank and use his +6d6 Sneak Attack.
Wearing full plate and has great HP and BAB (HD 1d10 + 10d10 + 1d6 + 4d4 + 3d8 + (ninja's) and BAB is +17). Loosely tanslated, good tank.
Full Nar Demonbinder spellcasting means access to dimensional anchor, fire storm, flame strike, flensing, greater dispelling, spell resistance, summon monsters IV-VIII, wall of fire
Full Blackguard spellcasting means access to all four levels of both cure and inflict spells, bull's strength, darkness, death knell, deeper darkness, doom, freedom of movement, poison, summon undead
With this sort of character, let's assume a paladin's fall into evil brought him in touch with fiends, he likes the evil and becomes blackguard and learns to summon fiends, but is lawful enough to stick with his adventuring party and remain an asset to them (intimidating diplomat, eh?). In an adventuring band, that little of his character I listed is more then enough to aid a party through hell (maybe literally), and back, and wow I can come up with some great ideas for this. :D
Once again, great job Sang-Drax, and it's very refreshing to see a non-EK build that still provides awesome benefits (and lines up perfectly with Epic Blackguard progression...).
EDIT: Oh yeah and I'd say a level of rogue is better than Human Paragon for this...actually it's not bad compared to ninja...Hell, go psychic rogue to take advantage of some Psionic Feats. Deep Impact
Psicrystal Affinity (as if your fiendish familiar and fiendish companion weren't enough) i can clearly see him charging using an impromptu sneak attack with a radiant energy weapon and at the same time smiting some good fellows....
the only issue i have with the build is the spell list which in my humble opinion is not so great.....
But again great build.
SoulLord
What kind of ability scores are we looking at for Gish builds? It would be nice to see what stat spread is being used for each build. Do Gish's benefit more from high strength or high dex?
My favorite Gish is Pal 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 5/EK 9. Weapon of choice: spiked chain :D My ability scores usually look like this:
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 15 (level bonuses go here)
What kind of feats are good for Gishs?
Please be a little patient as the list is fairly extensive and I'm putting much effort into it.As a teaser, there are three categories of feats: Martial feats, Qualifying feats, and Caster-related feats. Martial feats are pretty self explanitory, qualifying feats are good general feats to grab as they are not only useful but are often prerequisites for many gish-related prestige classes. Caster-related, or spell-focused or whatever I'll call the section, is your magical and psionic feats (item creation, metamagic/psionic, spell-enhancing feats, etc.).
I notice SoulLord commenting on the humble spell list, but if a greatsword wielding, full-plate wearing, +6d6 sneak attacking, fiend/undead summoning, fountain of hp blackguard-type truly need that many spells? Most of his spells are buffs and attack-related, the best being arcane (which qualifies him as gish). Paladin or Blackguard alone would not count as gish as divine casters are not included in the little "what is gish" formula, but having a few "on the side" divine spells as the 10th level blackguard does is certainly a plus.
True, the spell list isn't that great... but you have numberless spells to choose from - to any situation. Plus, if you take Practiced Spellcaster (Blackguard), that will add 4 to BG casting and 2 to ND caster level!
But there is, in fact, another problem... it's too stat-intensive. You need high Cha for Paly goodies, Wis 14 to cast all BG spells, high Str for fighting, decent Int for skills and good Con... well, no melee character should walk around with low Con score.
Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Spellsword 3/Harper Paragon 4/EK 6/Exotic Weapon Master 1
You'll need Foe Hunter feat at 1st level, plus Sacred Vow and Vow Of Obedience to qualify to Harper Paragon, Exotic Weapon: two-bladed sword/scimitar, Weapon Focus: said exotic weapon.
Harper Paragon (PGtF) nets you favored enemy: evil at 2nd level. Take Improved Favored Enemy for an additional +3 dmg, than take the feat Nemesis (BoED) for another +1d6. You'll have +1d6+4 dmg to every attack against evil creatures.
Plus:
- Fort +14, Ref +7, Will +12
- BAB: +17
- CL: 15th
- 5 bonus feats: Scribe Scroll + Human Paragon + EK + Fighter + SS (if allowed, use the wiz variant from UA that gains fighter bonus feats instead od Scribe Scroll)
- Some nice skills (high Int, Human Paragon, Harper Paragon)
- Exotic Flurry
Good hps: 1d10+2d4+3d8+3d8+4d10+6d6+1d10
Human Paragon should be taken at 1st level for better skill points.
But why the Exotic Weapon Master? Well, first of all, each attack made against evil creatures will sum 1d6+4 dmg. Second, it doubles your Arcane Strike effectiveness! The problem is that Power Attack sucks when using two weapons, but you can use Combat Expertise and be unhittable with all the buffs.
Again, it's a little stat-intensive if you plan to take all the TWF chain *and* deal a lot of damage at the same time (high Dex and Str). Once again, nothing that can't be solved with good old Polymorph Any Object.
Which brings up another problem.... is the Gish too stat intensive? Obviously, you can't have average scores in everything, so where do you put highs and lows? What stats are least important to a Gish? Should this problem be addressed individually within each build concept?
I would consider the Spellhammer build I have posted to be fairly stat-unintensive. Wearing Mechanus gear plate, you don't need a Dex higher then 10. You also don't really need any wisdom or charisma, so focusing on Str, Con, and Int isn't much MAD.
Generally, Wizard Gish get less MAD (but Sorcs can get more synergy...).
And, ultimately, no character past level 6 should care at all about physical stats: PAO takes care of those.
For a wizzie gish, with 32 pt buy you can go
16 Str
14 Dex
14 Con
16 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha
*if* you won't Polymorph.
Hexblade 3/Fighter 2/Ur-Priest 4/Prestige Paladin Of Tyranny 3/Nar Demonbinder 1/Spellsword 3/Mystic Theurge 4
- BAB +16
- 9th level divine spells (CL 17th)
- 8th level ND spells (CL 12th)
- Cha bonus to saves
- Cha bonus (then again) to saves vs spells
- 3 bonus feats
- Aura of despair
- Special Mount (a weak one, but still, it's there)
Not a quadruple threat like the previous one, but a better spellcaster nonetheless. It's even more stat-intensive, because you gotta have Wis 19 to cast all these spells. Fiendform should be seriously considered in combat ;)
Otherwise, dump your Con and become an undead somehow.
By the way, check my second post in the thread as it has been updated to include the Feats section I have been working on. If anybody has extra feats to add, please let me know what feats and why they are usable, and whether or not any feats I have mentioned should be up there or not.
About the comment regarding gish suffering from MAD, that is not always the case. Take a simple Egoist Psion gish for example. He can simply buff up his Strength and no matter how high it goes, he is not only increasing his attack and damage numbers but also bonus psionic benefits as well. Wizard/Swashbucklers can just focus on Dexterity (weapon finesse) and Intelligence (wizard's primary stat and swashbuckler's insightful strike) to increase attack, damage, and spell-related benefits. Constitution is good, but remember, even the lowliest gish can buff his stats.
Thanks shadow mage. Great job.
So Stat wise for any generic Gish, Wis is not that important? I can understand, since theres a whole lot of good-Will stacking going on. A good Str and primary spellcasting stat obviously good. So between con and dex, which gets the boot? If I were to, say, go the finesse or archer route, could I afford to go with a lower Con? (I probably answered my own question there with regards to archer...)
Edit:
I was looking over Swashbuckler, and they have a very nice synergy ability at lvl 3: Insightful Strike. Any reason NOT to take Swash 3 as early as possible, if at all? Wiz 3/Swash 3/Fighter 1/Spellsword 5/Wiz 1/EK 7... eh, doesnt look pretty I know... But has +18 BAB and Caster lvl 13... not bad if you ask me, more of a melee build, and I cant help but drool over the thought of Arcane Strike and Insightful Strike....
Speaking of synergy, just a comment on feats, I would love to be able to combine Arcane Strike and Power Attack... sacrifice a 5th level spell, PA for -5.... +10+5d4 damage with no attack adjustment.... ouch....
Im just rambling, dont mind me.
Archer Gish: Light martial OR spell focused gish, archer gish focus on bow art and ranged touch spells. Arcane archers have nothing on dedicated archer gish, as most arcane archers won't be able to launch a full ranged bow attack employing Improved Rapid Shot and Improved Mounted Archery and the next round cast an empowered scorching ray or magic missile. This build focuses on any sort of armor preference, almost exclusively archer-focused feats, spell selection emphasizing on enhancing own mobility, decreasing enemy mobility, and on ranged touch spells, and for ability scores a lower Strength and high Dexterity, and a high primary spellcasting attribute.
Assassin/Sniper Gish: Assassin gish (see example below) focus on extreme Intelligence scores, light armor, and high Dexterity to save them when in trouble. Though lower on the Base Attack and Caster Level scale compared to many gish, their spell selection and natural stealth (and Intelligence to damage) make them deadly adversaries, as they can easily hit and disappear with a strike and a spell. High Dexterity and Intelligence, light armor, emphasize stealth spells and weapon should be light (preferably rapier, longsword, etc). Enlarge spell and magic missile work well, as do true strike and a sneak attack from several range increments away, and both lend credit to the title "sniper".
Spell-focus Gish: While their Base Attack isn't the highest, their spellcasting is the best of gish builds. Levels of archmage should never be underestimated and the two ability score focuses here are their primary casting stat and Constitution. Sitting in full plate and high hp casting the most powerful spells makes for a deadly combination. Feats should be spell-oriented, mostly metamagic, Craft Wand or Staff, and defensive items should be purchased. Combat Expertise is a friend here if prerequisite Dexterity is met.
Support Balanced/Middleweight Gish: With a Caster Level and BAB just about the same, they are good at both without being the best at either. Focus on medium to heavy armor that allows for Dexterity, as this has the most flexible ability scores (High primary caster stat and one other physical stat of character's choice). High Strength types should focus on melee oriented spells and feats, high Dexterity types should focus on archery and ranged support, and high Constitution types can alternate between the two while not excelling at either. This sort of build plays the blending game and should have lots of buff and lots of synergetic spells to compliment the primary caster's spells and the primary meleeist's abilities. Support means support, not cast yourself exclusively into one set position, so these builds should be adaptable and canny.
Tank Meleeist Gish: What I refer to affectionately as "titans", these are your aptly named tanks of the battlefield. Medium to heavy armor, high Strength and primary spellcasting attribute, Constitution should be at least decent. Focus on buff, mass buff, and attack/defense spells. Psionicists make the best Tanks simply because of their choosable Primary Casting stat. Feats aren't overly important, choose good "general" feats that compliment the character (Power Attack, Empower Spell, Lightning Reflexes, etc).
For those of you wondering, this is one of the Assassin Gish to which I refer, something I made quickly so while it is probably not the best of examples, it's still an effective one.
Assassin Gish
Rogue1/Swashbuckler3/Wizard3/Assassin1/Bladesinger7/Eldritch Knight5
BAB: +16
Caster Level: 11th
Saves: +10/+12/+10
Psionicists make the best Tanks simply because of their choosable Primary Casting stat. Feats aren't overly important, choose good "general" feats that compliment the character (Power Attack, Empower Spell, Lightning Reflexes, etc).
If you aren't familiar with 3.5 psions, you can get the "411" here.
Spiked Chain Gish
Wiz 3/Swashbuckler 3/Fig 1/Spellsword 5/EK 8
BAB +18
Caster Level 13th
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: EWP-Spiked chain, Arcane Strike, Power Attack
This is a character I plan to use for a new campaign I will be playing in soon. It starts at 2nd level, but I'm planning ahead. The order of classes will vary for the first 7 levels, balancing short term survival with adequate spellcasting ability. The aim is to get Insightful Strike and Channel Spell. I know there are tons of better PRCs I can add in there, but I'm limited to core material and CW.
Race: Human
Level .....................................::BAB ::CL:: Saves :: Feats/Class abilities
1 -Wiz 1................................. :: +0 :: 1 :: 0/0/2 :: Familiar, Scribe Scroll, Expertise, (Improved Disarm or Trip)
2 -Wiz 1/Swsh 1.......................:: +1 :: 1 :: 2/0/2 :: Weapon Finesse
3 -Wiz 2/Swsh 1.......................:: +2 :: 2 :: 2/0/3 :: EWP-Spiked Chain
4 -Wiz 2/Swsh 2.......................:: +3 :: 2 :: 3/0/3 :: Grace +1 (not counted under saves)
5 -Wiz 3/Swsh 2.......................:: +3 :: 3 :: 4/1/3 ::
6 -Wiz 3/Swsh 3.......................:: +4 :: 3 :: 4/2/4 :: Extend Spell, Insightful Strike :D
7 -Wiz 3/Swsh 3/Fig 1................:: +5 :: 3 :: 6/2/4 :: Power Attack
8 -Wiz 3/Swsh 3/Fig 1/SS 1.........:: +6 :: 4 :: 8/2/6 :: -10% ASF
9 -Wiz 3/Swsh 3/Fig 1/SS 2.........:: +7 :: 4 :: 9/2/7 :: Improved Expertise, Empower Spell
10-Wiz 3/Swsh 3/Fig 1/SS 3.........:: +8 :: 5 :: 9/3/7 :: -15% ASF
11-Wiz 3/Swsh 3/Fig 1/SS 4.........:: +9 :: 5 :: 10/3/8 :: Channel Spell 3/day :D
12-Wiz 3/Swsh 3/Fig 1/SS 5.........:: +10 :: 6 :: 10/3/8 :: -20% ASF, Arcane Strike :D
13-Wiz 3/Swsh 3/Fig 1/SS 5/EK 1 :: +11 :: 6 :: 12/3/8 :: Imp.Crit.-Spiked Chain
14-Wiz 3/Swsh 3/Fig 1/SS 5/EK 2 :: +12 :: 7 :: 13/3/8 ::
15-Wiz 3/Swsh 3/Fig 1/SS 5/EK 3 :: +13 :: 8 :: 13/4/9 :: Persistant Spell
16-Wiz 3/Swsh 3/Fig 1/SS 5/EK 4 :: +14 :: 9 :: 14/4/9 ::
17-Wiz 3/Swsh 3/Fig 1/SS 5/EK 5 :: +15 :: 10 :: 14/4/9 ::
18-Wiz 3/Swsh 3/Fig 1/SS 5/EK 6 :: +16 :: 11 :: 15/5/10 :: Quicken Spell
19-Wiz 3/Swsh 3/Fig 1/SS 5/EK 7 :: +17 :: 12 :: 15/5/10 ::
20-Wiz 3/Swsh 3/Fig 1/SS 5/EK 8 :: +18 :: 13 :: 16/5/10 ::
(I appologize for the messy formatting)
Hexblade*
Hexblade5/Sorcerer3/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/Eldritch Knight10. This build provides a Base Attack of +18, Sorcerer Caster level of 14, access to 1st level Hexblade spells, no ASF from light armors, and early-level Hexblade abilities. Period. Hexblades are great for nongood characters who are careful builders and know what they want.
I think it is important to note that the no ASF in light armor only applies to Hexblade Spells, not to Wizard or Sorcerer spells. Aside from Mettle (mental Evasion) a 5th level Hexblade brings nothing to the table for me. I don't know why anyone likes this class. The spell progression is terrible when compared to a multiclass gish.
Troy
I think it is important to note that the no ASF in light armor only applies to Hexblade Spells, not to Wizard or Sorcerer spells. Aside from Mettle (mental Evasion) a 5th level Hexblade brings nothing to the table for me. I don't know why anyone likes this class. The spell progression is terrible when compared to a multiclass gish.
Troy
That is good to mention, and most surely I will once I get to edit my post again. The main point about the Hexblade though is that it's a solid choice for classes because while its spell selection sucks, the spells aren't what makes the Hexblade what it is. The curse-like abilities are impressive, and only get stronger, and the ability to use what spells they can cast with no penalty while in light armor promotes middleweight-ranged combat emphasizing on personal-augmentating spells and mobile combat (meaning actually moving around, not being nimble).
Ftr= fighter, Wiz = Wizard, HP = Human Paragon, SS = spellsword, EK = eldritch knight
Ftr2/Wiz1/HP3/SS3/EK10/Wiz2
End BAB: 18
End CL: 15
End Saves: 16/5/11
Human
01 Ftr1: EWP (Spiked Chain), [Improved Trip], Combat Expertise
02 Ftr2: [Combat Reflexes]
03 Wiz1: Karmic Strike, [Dodge]
04 Human Paragon 1:
05 Human Paragon 2: [Mobility]
06 Human Paragon 3: Side Step
07 SS 1:
08 SS 2: [Power attack]
09 SS 3: Practiced Spellcaster
10 EK1: [Improved Bull Rush]
11 EK 2:
12 EK 3: Arcane strike
15 – Elusive Target, 18 – Shock Trooper
Though it's only at the end, some nice synergy between elusive target and shock trooper when bullrushing.
Spell selection should focus on self buffs (enlarge, polymorph are a must) and limiting the battlefield so enemies have to come by your threatened area to get to your team. Grease, web, darkness, fog, cloud, and wall spells come to mind. Specialize as a transmuter, drop evocation and enchantment.
Use your spells so the enemies will have to go through your threat area or your spell effects to get to the group. In many cases you can just stand in the enemy's way and cast spells while covering your team thanks to AoOs with your reach. Since you handle magic for impeding enemy movement, the rest of your casters can focus on other things.
Using the SRD slayer would be much nicer than EK, but the extent of psionic transparency is up to the DM, and you do lose a feat.
From what I understand of Dragonslayer (having never looked at it before), you might be able to get away with taking a level in that instead of fighter... anyone is free to "upgrade" that build if possible to "smooth" it out.
The level of Fighter for that build is actually better in terms of feats, because it not only provides a bonus feat and continues the high HD high BAB progression, but it doesn't have any prerequisites to meet. Dragonslayer provides fear immunity and a boost to will, but requires two feats. Net loss of two feats versus a net gain of one, and since that build looks pretty feat reliant for the most optimized efficiency I'd go with the extra feat.
I'm almost done with my own chain-user, so look forward to it soon.
Anyway, check the 3.5 thread for some great polymorphs. At 13th CL you could enlarge self then poly into a firbolg, which is large. Since you became large before polymorphing, your equipment would be usable with its 36(!) strength. Firbolg's favored class is druid so they obviously aren't incapable of casting spells.
At just 7th CL you can go for annis hag, large humanoid with 25 strength, improved grab, rake, rend.
There are some nicer forms at higher CLs too. And if you're an Assaimar pal2/sorc4 build...some of the outsider forms are insane.
Also, isn't casting not allowed while under tensers, or has that changed? Haven't looked at the spell for awhile and I cant' seem to find it, either.
For large humanoid forms, your DM might rule that you don't have to enlarge first for your equipment if it's magical, since magical stuff resizes. Either way you have it covered.
Your equipment does not grow... it's in the "All About Polymorph" arcticle in the wizards site.
I do agree, however, with Kuroi Kenshi when he says Polymorph rules. Tenser's Transformation sucks IMO... a Gish's base attack bonus should be like 4 less than a straight fighter, so, raising your BAB by 4 with a 6th level spell is not that great. Plus, by 13th level (which should be more or less the character level a gish would be able to cast TT), you'll already have at least two stat enhancement items to your physical stats, which won't stack with the bonus confered by TT. If you don't have such magical items because maybe it's a low-gp campaign, then you probably won't be able to buy the material component for the spell either (a potion of Bull's Strength).
With Polymorph, you can raise your physical stats by 10 or more, and it's an unnamed bonus - after all, you aquire the strength of the new form, it's not a real bonus. Try the outsider forms Ghaele, with 25 Str 12 Dex 15 Con; or maybe Kelvezu, Str 23 Dex 29 Con ?. Both have +15 natural armor - by that I mean it's a powerful defensve spell. And all that with a 4th level spell, which last 10 times longer than TT, with no M component.
Polymorph (and the 5th level Draconic Polymorph) is the most sickly overpowering spell for gishes. I truly think it's impossible to play an unbuffed melee-capable gish without this spell.
I'm starting to wonder why anyone even bothers with a race to begin with.
hahaha
Maybe because you have to be an outsider in order to get Outsider Polymorph :D
Your equipment does not grow... it's in the "All About Polymorph" arcticle in the wizards site.
Well, at least there's still enlarge for getting around that for large forms :D
hahaha
Maybe because you have to be an outsider in order to get Outsider Polymorph :D
Nah. You just need the Fiendform spell.
If they are adjusted by the silent and still feats.
so you could be a hydra casting silent still scorching ray if you felt the situation warranted it.
which is not the case in tensers transformation which forbids spellcasting...
SoulLord
1-enlarge person, feather fall, magic missile, mount, ray of enfeeblement, shield, sleep, true strike
2-bear's endurance, blur, bull's strength, cat's grace, Melf's acid arrow, mirror image, scorching ray
3-displacement, haste, heroism, rage, slow, vampiric touch, wind wall
4-fire shield, greater invisibility, phantasmal killer, polymorph, stoneskin
5-feeblemind, mind fog, telekinesis, teleport, wall of force, waves of fatigue
6-acid fog, chain lightning, circle of death, disintegrate, greater heroism, prismatic eye, Tenser's transformation, wall of iron
7-finger of death, Modenkainent's sword, prismatic spray, spell turning, waves of exhaustion
8-incendiary cloud, greater prying eyes, horrid wilting, mind blank, polar ray
9-meteor swarm, Mordenkainen's disjunction, shapechange, time stop, wail of the banshee, weird
Your equipment does not grow... it's in the "All About Polymorph" arcticle in the wizards site.
Hmm, taken from the article, "Polymorphing: Part Three". I hope this is the same article (series) you were referring to. It suggests the opposite, actually. Unless you were referring to body types and not size before polymorphing, anyway.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a
"In general, a change from one form that has a humanoid shape to another form that has a humanoid shape leaves all equipment in place and functioning. The subject's equipment changes to match the assumed form. It becomes the appropriate size for the assumed form and it fits the assumed form. The spellcaster can change minor details in your equipment, such as color, surface texture, and decoration.
When a subject changes from a form with a humanoid shape to a form with a nonhumanoid shape (or vice versa) most of his equipment is subsumed into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. Items the subject could conceivably wear in an assumed form remain functional. For example, most items worn on the body, such as armor, cloaks, boots, and most other items of clothing made for a humanoid body won't fit on a nonhumanoid body. Some items can fit on just about any kind of body. For example, a ring fits just about any form that has digits of some kind (the limit of two rings applies no matter how many hands or similar appendages a creature has). Likewise, a necklace fits on just about any form that has a neck."
"In troll form, Anlion's statistics change dramatically. He gains the troll's natural armor, natural weaponry, and the troll's deadly rend attack; he also gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of a typical troll (as noted in the Monster Manual). The ability score changes give him many more hit points and improve his melee combat abilities. He loses his low-light vision (an extraordinary special quality). He retains his half-elf racial skill bonuses. He does not gain the troll's darkvision or regeneration abilities (also extraordinary special qualities). He gains the giant type, loses his half-elf subtype, and gains the augmented humanoid subtype. His equipment keeps functioning in his assumed form because a giant has a basically humanoid body. He gains the troll's Large size, which increases his space and reach and affects his combat abilities -- particularly his grapple bonus. Because his equipment remains functional, it changes size along with him."
So eh, equipment does grow, after all? It doesn't seem to have to be magical, either :D
One more thing, does prismatic eye cover true seeing? Unsure of its effects.
With the ability to cast this and then go about your normal business while using a free action each round to use a random ray from the eye, this spell is amazingly useful in heavy combat. Once its rays are used up and combat's over the eye will likely still be around, so you can use it to move ahead of you to activate traps and provide a decoy (within the 1 round/level time limit).
Spike81101
While the concept is good, look at the results. You can cast arcane spells of 7th level, divine spells of 3rd level, and have good saves but a BAB of +16. You're at best alright at three things, but not good enough in any of the three to support yourself in combat. Gish are primarily made for combat of whatever sort, and this build you present is trying to focus on more things than it's able to. A Mystic Theurge build emphasizing arcane spells can grab a couple geomancer levels to cast in armor, pick a nice tough weapon and Power Attack, and cast Tenser's transformation, but even then it will only be so good against as a gish and becomes extremely reliant on that one spell to be useful (and while under the effects of that spell you can't cast spells). If using polymorph I still don't think that build can become a strong gish, as gish builds focus on the ability to cast spells and fight well, not so-so.
~hf
Spike81101
While the concept is good, look at the results. You can cast arcane spells of 7th level, divine spells of 3rd level, and have good saves but a BAB of +16. You're at best alright at three things, but not good enough in any of the three to support yourself in combat. Gish are primarily made for combat of whatever sort, and this build you present is trying to focus on more things than it's able to. A Mystic Theurge build emphasizing arcane spells can grab a couple geomancer levels to cast in armor, pick a nice tough weapon and Power Attack, and cast Tenser's transformation, but even then it will only be so good against as a gish and becomes extremely reliant on that one spell to be useful (and while under the effects of that spell you can't cast spells). If using polymorph I still don't think that build can become a strong gish, as gish builds focus on the ability to cast spells and fight well, not so-so.
I don't think this build even needs tensers transfomation. Beyond that, wiz 15 grants you 8th level spells as well. Take a better look at the build, wildshape into a treant is pretty nice. In the end you end up as a plant, making you immune to critical hits and mind effecting spells. And for what handforged said; animate tree, you bring your forest with you. Throw spiked chain madness into it and you've got some serious reach. I was thinking about going wujen instead of wizard. Giant form and body out of body /shudder.
So eh, equipment does grow, after all? It doesn't seem to have to be magical, either :D
Yes, the equipment does grow!
I don't where have I read it didn't... just for us to see how broken can Polymorph be. Just be a Wiz 5/Incantatrix 8, Draconic Polymorph into a Firbolg, with maybe a contingent Tenser's transformation, and watch the party fighter cry. Str 48, full BAB. No use for a Gish either for that matter.
Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Spellsword 5/Dragonslayer 1/Master Harper 8
you gotta have Alertness and Iron Will (maybe not Alertness if your DM allows you to get it as a virtual feat from a familiar), but you get:
- BAB +16
- CL 16th
- Channel Spell 4 (?) times per day
- Good Skills (Human Paragon, Master Harper)
- 7 bonus feats (including human's)
- Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +18
At first, the BAB and CL don't look that great... however, with the appropriate feats you can be a total havoc in melee. How about whirlwind attack with arcane strike and, why not, True Strike? True enough, you can be better in battle if you don't take any Master Harper levels and just keep going as an EK. However, you don't have all the cool skills Master Harper will net you. Plus, your Reflex saves won't be a total crap like most Gishes. You don't have lots of hp, but you wouldn't have if you were an EK anyway.
As for the Dragonslayer, I don't usually take this class in my builds, but you would have to take Dodge for Whirlwind Attack and Iron Will for Master Harper anyway.
ps: choose Perform as your eternal class skill from Human Paragon.
So eh, equipment does grow, after all? It doesn't seem to have to be magical, either
Magical equipment does not change size anymore... it's in an arcticle in the wizards site, under polymorph.
CALVARY CASTER
Fighter2/Wizard5/Eldritch Knight2/Spellsword5/Eldritch Knight6
Base Attack Bonus: 17
Caster Level: 15
Saves: +14/+4/+10
Hit Dice/ Average Hit Points: 2D10+5D4+5D8+8D6 (64 hp without con)
Human
Class Feat
1) FTR Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge
2) FTR2 Trample
3) WIZ1 Mounted Spellcasting
4) WIZ2
5) WIZ3
6) WIZ4 Combat Casting
7) WIZ5 Sculpt Spell
8) EK1 Mounted Archery
9) EK2 Calvary Charger
10) SS1 (class) Ignore spell failure: 10%
11) SS2 Widen Spell
12) SS3 (class) Ignore spell failure: 15%, Imp. Familiar
13) SS4 (class) Channel spell 3/day
14) SS5 (class) Ignore spell failure: 20%
15) EK3 Energy Substitution
16) EK4
17) EK5
18) EK6 Energy Admixture
19) EK7
20) EK8
The Calvary Caster is a battle field controler whose job it is to support the troops with area spells and ride in to lay the smack after that is done. In the early levels, ride by attack, spirited charge, and trample allow him to ride in with a summoned mount and lance opponents (doing x3 dmg) without provoking AoOs. By 9th level, Calvary Charger would allow him to fell trample all opposition in his way to get to any spellcasters that thought obstacles kept them safe.
The fun really begins at 12th level with Improved Familiar as the Calvary Caster can now have a familiar who is a mount as well. Every personal spell cast by the guy is shared by the familiar so here comes bulls strength, shield, blink,etc., etc. Using Channel spell to put scorching ray in a lance, using leaping charge, and spearing a foe for scorching ray+lance (x3)+ 4 is pretty good. Exchange Widen Spell for Arcane Strike and it gets worse.
Admitedly, in enclosed spaces he could be limited, but other than having to deal with tight corridors and very small rooms, he's pretty set.
:fight!:Enlarge person on the mage means enlarge person on the familiar. The damage increases even further.
Spell Whip
Race: Elf, Half-Elf, or Human (Elf is preferred due to dexterity bonus)
Wizard6/SwashBuckler3/Lasher1/EldritchKnight10
BAB +17
Spell Casting Level: 15th
Feats: Exotic Weapon Prof(whip), Weapon Focus(whip), Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Craft Arms & Armor(for the wizard bonus feat), Arcane Strike, Shield Proficiency, Improved Buckler Defense, Practiced Spellcaster.
Notes:
1) This build allows you to add dex to your attack bonus and int to damage while allowing you to stay back 15' from your foes.
2) Combined use of true strike and disarm will almost guarantee a successful disarm attempt.
3) Take advantage of a good mithril buckler for extra AC (and with improved buckler defense you can cast a spell with your buckler weilding hand and still retain the AC bonus from the buckler).
4) In addition to the Practiced Spellcaster feat, try to pick up one of the Ioun Stones which increases your caster level by 1...this will allow you to cast spells at 20th level.
5) Enchant your whip to +1 and throw on cool extra abilities such as Holy, Spell Storing, and/or Dancing. With Spell Storing and a 20th level casting level you can store a Vampiric Touch spell in your whip and do an extra 10d6 damage when you release the spell !! Also, use Greater Magic Weapon to get the +1 bonus up to +5.
Cavalry Meleeist
As for the Master Thrower, hmm... I don't really see a reason for a Master thrower if you don't sneak attack. And, if you do have sneak attack as a class feature, than you're probably not a gish. Why? Because it's realy hard to build a triple threat fighter/mage/rogue, let alone with Master Thrower levels in it. Plus, the best MasThrower power for non-sneak attackers is its 5th level ability to ignore natural armor. Well, any touch spell also ignores natural armor, so you'd be better off as an ordinary mage/rogue.
My own quadruple threat build I've posted like 2 pages ago could not be a Master Thrower, because at least 8 Blackguard levels are needed to qualify to Nar Demonbinder. Plus, Dex should probably be his dump stat, because he needs high stats in pretty much everywhere else.
The combat effectiveness just goes thru the roof when the shared spells ability comes into play. Normally, the shared spells ability is a small incentive to actually have your familiar do something other than sit in your pocket, scout, or deliver a messege and run back to safety. A mount familiar on the other hand; will be a large creature, will be directly under the caster most of the time (so the within 5ft rule isn't an issue), and will be as combat efficient as the caster himself.
Two viable threats for the price of one.
A afmiliar mount is bound to have a natural armor bonus to start with. Add a natural armor bonus because of its familiar level, barding, the shield spell the rider would probably had cast on himself, and any other buff spell (not counting blink and other spells mages cast on themselves to make them difficult to hit) and what you have is a mount with a better AC than the rider.
As far as the ride skill goes: it goes without saying a Cavalry Caster should max out his ride skill in the first 2 lvls of FTR, and then cross class it on every level of his caster class.
In regards to the cavalry gish, I see for ANY gish a familiar as a liability. He's a walking/flying/slithering/etc. XP loss waiting to happen. The biggest part that must be remembered about any sort of familiar is that it's growth in abilities isn't level dependent, it's class dependant. And no gish is going to spend that many levels in one core casting class, such as wizard or sorcerer. Although, there is one exception...but even that's not much of an exception and it isn't even a mounted combatant.
Also consider this: Gish will be in combat. It's what they're made for. That means the familiar is especially vulnerable, and while a single spell to buff it up is nice I personally wouldn't (as a Sorcerer especially) want to waste a spell for a familiar that's pretty easily killed. The only "familiar"-like creature that's exceptionally powerful is the paladin's pokemount (c'mon, he can being his buddy into dungeons with him, how cool is that?) and even that's debatable by some.
See, that's what i don't get.
First, a mount would be just as easy to kill as a Paladins mount. In fact, the Paladins mount would be easier to kill. The familiars not a cat,toad, or some other tiny animal. It's at least large with the stats that go with it.
Second, the caster wouldn't be wasting any buff spells. The caster would only have to cast whatever buff spells he were casting on himself to begin with; the Familiar gets the benefit of it by being next to the caster. And since any gish is going to be in the midst of battle anyway, 9 times out of 10 those buff spells will be as beneficial to the familiar as it is to the caster
Finally, i think the caster would want the mount familiar (who most likely will have a better AC and attack bonus than the caster) to be a target. It leaves him free to attack with the big spells and melee actions while their opponent tries to take the buffed familiar with multiple attacks.
I mean, the gish itself is made to ride into combat. Kind of detrimental if your regular horse is getting skewered all of the time. As you said, it's not likely the SOR is gonna waste spells buffing the horse...which he wouldn't need to do if his mount were the familiar.
Then again, i could be wrong.
At higher levels familiars are really great with PAO and Shapechange.
- improved evasion
- half of master's hp
- base saves equal to master's or its own, whichever is better
Throw in all the buffs the master is using and you have a familiar that can hold its own even in combat. Wizards can also use all the familiar buff spells if they are afraid of it dying.
The only question I have is: what types of monsters can qualify as familiars, even with the Improved Familiar feat? IDHMB, so I can't check on this right now, but someone who can, let's see a comprehensive list.
At higher levels, familiars are really great with
PAO and Shapechange
*twitch*....*twitch**twitch*........
The Heavy Hitter
Paladin4/sorcerer2/dragonslayer3/spellsword5/EK6
BAB 19, CL 12, hp = 10 + 3d10 + 2d4 + 8d8 + 6d6 = 79 + (character level * con modifier)
Necessary Feats- Power attack, divine might, dodge, iron will, arcane strike
Between true strike/power attack, arcane strike, divine might, channel spell, and even smite, this character can do serious damage on one hit not even factoring in weapon and strength damage. EK levels can be exchanged for more levels of SS or DS if you're willing to trade CL for more abilities.
On the list of available familiars under Improved familiar there's the hippogriff and the Winter Wolf that are suitable as mounts. Although it's said any animal or beast of comparable strength is acceptable, i'll go with the Winter Wolf.
The Winter Wolf has average hit points of 51. This would be better than half of the casters, so i'll keep that. The wolf has an AC of 15, which is increased to 17 because of the increase for being a familiar of the casters general caster lev when he jumped ship to a prestige class. Give the wolf full plate and it's AC is 25.
Now the caster is on his Winter Wolf and preparing for combat.
He cats Shield on himself...the Wolf now has shield and its AC is 29.
He casts Bullstrength on himself...the Wolf now has a STR of 22.
He casts displacement on himself...the Wolf now has displacement.
Lastly, he casts enlarge on himself. The caster is large and the wolf is huge.
All the caster has to do is worry about himself. The familiar will benefit regardless and be very good at dealing death itself. A Paladins mount doesn't have the advantages the familiar would have.
A huge Winter Wolf with its reach and trip ability is pretty formidable. Not even thinking about its cold breath.
Didn't even have to pick Winter Wolf. There's many creatures of comparable power with different tricks up their sleeves.
The Archer gish could go with the hippogriff, guide with his knees, and rain death with full attacks from the sky. Find a flying mount with a breath attack and it's better.
I mean, i do understand the risk involved, i just don't think it's that dangerous given the wide potential.
Now that I think about it, it does make a little sense, but it's still a walking xp drain. Look at what all familiars get, regardless of level:
- improved evasion
- half of master's hp
- base saves equal to master's or its own, whichever is better
A nice familiar from Complete Warrior: a blink dog, which is medium-size (nice for polymorph) and has Blink and Dimension Door.
They are a walking xp drain, but with all those things they are pretty hard to kill, especially at high levels. If the master has a form (through contingencied polymorph, draconic poly, polymorph any object, Shapechange) with a very high constitution, like a wartroll (31con + the wizard/sorc/gish's items), the familiar will have enormous hp.
If you change the familiar's form with your casting of polymorph (neither of you move), PAO (a scroll costs only 6k, and a casting from another wizard costs only 1200gp), or at high levels Shapechange (which lasts nearly 3 hours when you get it), he can be a pretty good fighter for a gish, since he uses the master's bab. His ac can be pretty good because of natural armor, give him mage armor or perhaps a few leftover items, perhaps the form has fly... some familiars may well be harder to kill than some characters
*twitch*....*twitch**twitch*........
Does it sound so cheesy?
If your familiar is medium-size or you have the psionic Metamorphosis (and a psycrystal), change both of you with one casting into ropers. They have 6 ranged touch attacks (50ft) that deal 2d8 Str damage (although there is a save). This drops nearly anything not immune to ability damage.
It gets really silly with shapechange if you look at all the Su abilities.
You can cast quickend Bull's Str, Improved Blink, and Draconic Polymorph - all in one round.
You polymorph into a, say, Astral Deva, while your mount is now a -insert clever, high-ac rideable creature here-.
It's still a possible xp loss, but let's consider the following:
1. It's a really cool concept
2. 400-800 xp is not that much. In one encounter you'll be equal in xp to the rest of the party.
I wouldn't do it only for the fact that I'm sick of using Polymorph - and the mount gets really suboptimal without it.
Wiz or Sorc 1
Half-Elf Paragon (from Unearthed Arcana) 2
Human Paragon (from UA) 3
or
Wiz 1
Half-Elf Paragon (from UA) 2
Elf Paragon (from UA) 3
The beauty of the paragon classes is that they are d8 HD offer better skills than levels of Sorc/Wiz, and have +1 spells/day for lvls 2 and 3 (except for half-elf, which only gets a spell/day bonus at lvl 2). The ability boost is useful too. This 6th level character will cast spells as if he were 4th lvl, with BAB +3 and HD 5d8+1d4. A great start into any gish build
While they work well for skill mages, Paragons are anti Gish.
The two primary concerns of a Gish are: BAB, and Caster Levels.
HD are of secondary importance. Skills tertiary.
Now lets look at Paragon Classes. The first level of a paragon class (save Drow) advance NEITHER Base Attack Bonus OR Caster Level. Double Paragon-ing leaves you two levels beind any other Gish, in combat and in spellcasting. That's a crippling combination.
Not to mention you get shortchanged on weapon and armor proficiencies. Assuming you're going for at least one level of spellsword, you need at least one level in fighter or paladin.
that is not true
sorc 6 - militia feat from PGTF
ek 2
dragonslayer 1
will get you into spellsword just fine
although admitly you need to 'waste' three feats to do it
militia gives a martial weapons - preq for EK
dodge - preq for DS
iron will - preq for DS
so if you go sorc 6 / ek 2 / DS 1 / spellsword 3 / ek 3-8
you get bab 17 and caster level 18
i'm sure its been done but its a favorite of mine
on the paragon topic,
gish should be looking to keep max bab and caster lvls, not HD or skills
while HD and skills can be useful, you can just poly into something with good con and you will never have as much skills as the rogue or super-intelligent wizard
on of the few reliable manners of doing so is to increase your spellcasting attribute.
so would you lose 1 spell level for an extra 1 to the dc?
spell focus +1 dc one school
greater spell focus +1dc of one school
spell thematics +1 dc of one spell
Shadow weave +1 dc for some schools
spell casting attribute +x equal to spellcasting attribute bonus.
now on another approach gishes are not primary casters and so their DC will most of the time be lower than those of a full time spellcaster so why worry for the dc in the first place? just hack them to pieces
SoulLord
Here's my latest thought. It's an Idea of Pure Evil.
You can use Arcane Strike to sunder, right?
I'm the only fan of high HD gishes here it seems. Oh well.
Here's my latest thought. It's an Idea of Pure Evil.
You can use Arcane Strike to sunder, right?
To my knowledge, yes. And even though that sparked some ideas of my own, I'll hand this one to you for build purposes, so let's see RadicalTaoist pull out some magic-powered sundering machine.
Furthermore, I'd like to state that I agree fully with scrollreader in that the "Paragons" do not seem gish-worthy. While not fully positive as to what they can do and what benefits they gain, the seem good for decent BAB/CL blends, but not for true gish. The medium hit die, medium BAB, AND incomplete spellcasting progression simply aren't optimal.
Lastly, I have been convinced that a Familiar mount would be useful, my hat's off to you for your good points Defcon4, Borin, and everyone else. Although, for the same reason I avoid most mounts period, at later levels they become more of a liability because of the sheer amount of damage enemies can do, though at early-mid levels they do look like a good option for Cavalry gish builds.
Oh, and by later tomorrow I will have the spell-review complete with the spells presented in Post #173. I'll add on from there once that list is done, and that will conclude Section Two of this, opening the way for me to complete my Types of Gish section, and finally my Strategies section.
Burn a measly 6th lvl spell. That's +6 to hit and +6d4 to your sundering damage. Use Combat Brute's Sundering Cleave tactical manuver and if their weapon successfully breaks, you get a free attack against them with those same bonuses.
Pure, unadulterated evil.
good thread very informative
however in 3.5 psionics, the psychic warriors manifesting ability is wisdom not strength as you posted in one of your first couple posts
just thought i would point that out
2) Thanks warok, once again I let something in 3.5 XPH escape my notice. I think I'm gonna sit down and read more then skim this weekend. Time for another edit.
You hear that guys? Your gish can sunder as well or even better than a barbarian if you've got a decent weapon! WOO HOO.
Your comment on the archer gish reminds me that Master Throwers can do a throwing sunder trick. Maybe it's worth one level after all. Ha. :D
ONE MORE LITTLE IDEA: Since Arcane Strike affects a single weapon for a whole round, it will be useful when paired with Close Quarters Fighting. There aren't many a grappling gish around, as, y'know, wrestling is kinda hard to pair with spellcasting. But if you have CQF, you make an attack of opportunity even against monsters with the Improved Grab ability, and the damage you do is added as a bonus to your grapple check to resist grappling. If you're channeling AS then that will likely equal crazy bonuses to said grapple check.
A note to psionic illithid slayer gishes: this feat will also help you in fighting your enemies of choice.
Just thought that I would post my three favorite builds. The 2 first of them are slight modifications of the before mentioned Quintessential Gish (see page one). The last one is how I figure you get the most power out of the CW Bladesinger.
The Quintessential Gish, part 1
Human Paragon 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9
1) HP 1: 2x FEAT (Imp. Init., combat reflexes), loads of good skills
2) HP 1/Ftr 1: FEAT (EWP: Spiked Chain)
3) HP 1/Ftr 1/Wiz 1: 2x FEAT (Scribe scroll, Practiced Spellcaster)
4) HP 2/Ftr 1/Wiz 1: FEAT (Dodge)
5) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 1: AB boost +2
6) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2: FEAT (Combat Expertise)
7) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 1: - 10% ASF
8) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 2: FEAT (Karmic Strike)
9) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 3: FEAT (Arcane Strike), - 15% ASF
10) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 4: Channel Spell 3/day
11) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5: - 20% ASF
12) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 1: 2x FEAT (WF: Spiked Chain, Imp. toughness)
13) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 2:
14) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 3:
15) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 4: FEAT (Empower Spell)
16) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 5:
17) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 6:
18) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 7: FEAT (Quicken Spell)
19) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 8:
20) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 9:
BAB: +18, CL: 15 (19)
Saves: +13/+5/+13, HP: 1d10 + 2d4 + 7d8 + 9d6 + 8 = 81,5 + (20x con. mod.)
This guy isn't focusing on tripping his opponents with his Spiked Chain, but just uses it to deal huge amounts of damage. And he does well at that too - he gets loads of attacks from Karmic Strike + 10 feet reach, so when he uses Arcane Strike he can really be devastating. I actually figure that this is the best use of Arcane Strike because there is no way you can get more attacks than this guy - 2 weapon fighting doesn't work with Arcane Strike, as was clarified in JKs thread.
Well rounded, and good at all levels. And he has actually got something that most gish don't have - skills. This guy has probably got his Spot check maxed because of Human Paragon, and he dabbles in many other useful skills.
If you're uncomfortable with UA the first 6 levels can be subbed with Ftr 2/Wiz 4, but then you're not going to get all the beatiful skills or the AB boost.
The Quintessential Gish, part 2
Dwarven Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9
1) Ftr 1 2x FEAT (Power Attack, Cleave)
2) Ftr 2: FEAT (Improved Initiative)
3) Ftr 2/Wiz 1: 2x FEAT (Scribe scroll, Practiced Spellcaster)
4) Ftr 2/Wiz 2:
5) Ftr 2/Wiz 3:
6) Ftr 2/Wiz 4: FEAT (WF: Greatsword)
7) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 1: - 10% ASF
8) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 2: FEAT (Great cleave)
9) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 3: FEAT (Arcane Strike), - 15% ASF
10) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 4: Channel Spell 3/day
11) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5: - 20% ASF
12) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 1: 2x FEAT (Quick draw, Imp. toughness)
13) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 2:
14) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 3:
15) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 4: FEAT (Empower Spell)
16) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 5:
17) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 6:
18) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 7: FEAT (Quicken Spell)
19) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 8:
20) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 9:
BAB: +18, CL: 15 (19)
Saves: +14/+5/+11, HP: 1d10 + 4d4 + 5d8 + 9d6 + 10: 79,5 + (20x con. mod.)
More of a tank gish really this dwarf is also rather powerful. While his combat techniques aren't as advanced as the human's he can definitely hold his own in a battle. He should be wearing a Twillight Mithril Full Plate, and tank while casting spells and smiting evil minions of darkness with Arcane Strike. Depending on how much you value Karmic Strike you can substitute WF, Great Cleave and Quick Draw with Combat Expertise, Dodge and Karmic Strike.
The Melee Bladesinger
Grey-Elf Swashbuckler 3/Ftr 2/Wiz 1/Bladesinger 10/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 3
1)Swashbuckler - Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Rapier
2)Fighter - Dodge
3)Swashbuckler - Grace +1, Combact Casting
4)Fighter - Combat Expertise
5)Swashbuckler - Insightful strike
6)Wizard - Scribe Scroll Strike, Practiced Spellcaster
7)Bladesinger Bladesong
8)Bladesinger Lesser Spellsong
9)Bladesinger - Mobility
10)Bladesinger - Song of Celerity (2nd)
11)Bladesinger -
12)Bladesinger - Greater Spellsong, Spring Attack
13)Bladesinger -
14)Bladesinger - Song of Celerity (4th)
15)Bladesinger - Arcane Strike
16)Bladesinger - Song of Fury
17)Spellsword
18)Eldritch Knight - Improved Crit (Rapier), Improved Toughness
19)Eldritch Knight
20)Eldritch Knight
BAB: +19, CL: 9 (13)
Saves: +14/+10/+13, HP: 4d10 + 1d4 + 11d8 + 3d6 + 10: 94,5 + (20x con. mod.)
This guy hasn't got that many spells, so he should use those few he's got to boost his AC and then proceed into melee. His AC can get very high, and at the higher levels he's able to hold his own in melee. Beware though, it might be a bit difficult getting there, so you need to be careful at the low levels.
The build isn't that powerful, but it's definitely playable, and it's one of the best ways to get the most bang for the buck with the CW Bladesinger.
Alternately, if you desperately want Channel Spell you can go Spellsword 4 in the last 4 levels. SoulLord often advocates this apporach. I wouldn't recommend it however - this guy is short on Caster Levels as is, losing one more would be very bad. BTW, he hasn't really got any high level damage dealing spell to channel into his weapon. I recommend sticking with the buffs and do your thing in melee.
That's it from me for the time being. Comments are always welcome.
- Dain
Hi all.
Just thought that I would post my three favorite builds. The 2 first of them are slight modifications of the before mentioned Quintessential Gish (see page one). The last one is how I figure you get the most power out of the CW Bladesinger.
The Quintessential Gish, part 1
Human Paragon 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9
1) HP 1: 2x FEAT (Imp. Init., combat reflexes), loads of good skills
2) HP 1/Ftr 1: FEAT (EWP: Spiked Chain)
3) HP 1/Ftr 1/Wiz 1: 2x FEAT (Scribe scroll, Practiced Spellcaster)
4) HP 2/Ftr 1/Wiz 1: FEAT (Dodge)
5) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 1: AB boost +2
6) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2: FEAT (Combat Expertise)
7) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 1: - 10% ASF
8) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 2: FEAT (Karmic Strike)
9) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 3: FEAT (Arcane Strike), - 15% ASF
10) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 4: Channel Spell 3/day
11) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5: - 20% ASF
12) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 1: 2x FEAT (WF: Spiked Chain, Imp. toughness)
13) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 2:
14) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 3:
15) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 4: FEAT (Empower Spell)
16) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 5:
17) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 6:
18) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 7: FEAT (Quicken Spell)
19) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 8:
20) HP 3/Ftr 1/Wiz 2/SS 5/EK 9:
BAB: +18 CL: 15 (19)
Saves: +14/+5/+11 HP: 1d10 + 2d4 + 7d8 + 9d6 + 8 = 81,5 + (20x con. mod.)
This guy isn't focusing on tripping his opponents with his Spiked Chain, but just uses it to deal huge amounts of damage. And he does well at that too - he gets loads of attacks from Karmic Strike + 10 feet reach, so when he uses Arcane Strike he can really be devastating. I actually figure that this is the best use of Arcane Strike because there is no way you can get more attacks than this guy - 2 weapon fighting doesn't work with Arcane Strike, as was clarified in JKs thread.
Well rounded, and good at all levels. And he has actually got something that most gish don't have - skills. This guy has probably got his Spot check maxed because of Human Paragon, and he dabbles in many other useful skills.
Useful enough build, though I'm uncertain about the paragon levels. They provide +2 to caster level, right? Anyway, even without Two-weapon Fighting, my (example) Master of Whips needs only acquire a speed weapon and he can deal out 6 attacks with a single whip. I think that's pretty optimal, considering the other goodies he's got, and I see Arcane Strike used more for powerhouse builds (blackguard/nar build, heavy gish builds, barbarian/rage mages, etc.) to provide that extra jump in damage. I still haven't decided if the feat is more useful for wizards or sorcerers.
The Quintessential Gish, part 2
Dwarven Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9
1) Ftr 1 2x FEAT (Power Attack, Cleave)
2) Ftr 2: FEAT (Improved Initiative)
3) Ftr 2/Wiz 1: 2x FEAT (Scribe scroll, Practiced Spellcaster)
4) Ftr 2/Wiz 2:
5) Ftr 2/Wiz 3:
6) Ftr 2/Wiz 4: FEAT (WF: Greatsword)
7) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 1: - 10% ASF
8) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 2: FEAT (Great cleave)
9) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 3: FEAT (Arcane Strike), - 15% ASF
10) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 4: Channel Spell 3/day
11) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5: - 20% ASF
12) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 1: 2x FEAT (Quick draw, Imp. toughness)
13) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 2:
14) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 3:
15) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 4: FEAT (Empower Spell)
16) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 5:
17) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 6:
18) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 7: FEAT (Quicken Spell)
19) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 8:
20) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 9:
BAB: +18 CL: 15 (19)
Saves: +14/+5/+11 HP: 1d10 + 4d4 + 5d8 + 9d6 + 10: 79,5 + (20x con. mod.)
More of a tank gish really this dwarf is also rather powerful. While his combat techniques aren't as advanced as the human's he can definitely hold his own in a battle. He should be wearing a Twillight Mithril Full Plate, and tank while casting spells and smiting evil minions of darkness with Arcane Strike. Depending on how much you value Karmic Strike you can substitute WF, Great Cleave and Quick Draw with Combat Expertise, Dodge and Karmic Strike.
Oi, I'll use this as motivation to get my Types of Gish section up today, but I believe channel spell and Arcane Strike are redundant. Both allow channeling of spells for damage (one by actually casting the spell, the other by converting it to an attack/damage bonus), but while one is a free action to activate the other is a move action. This makes them pretty much unusable simultaneously, as you can only make a single attack afterward. Having both abilities seems sorta subpar, though if I'm wrong please prove me so. I'd like to see how they can work together.
Also, the feat choice needs a little work. Great Cleave will (realistically) almost NEVER come into play, Cleave should be more then enough, and quick draw won't help with a greatsword (...so I think...) and seems out of place in this build. Empower Spell should be the first metamagic you take, and taken at the earliest level possible (by caster level 8th you should have it) as that particular feat is most useful early levels and has diminishing returns each level you can. For example, at Caster Level 7 the difference between a normal scorching ray and an Empowered one is a nearly 100% damage increase, while at Caster Level 15 the damage increase has fallen (for other spells) to only a 25% increase. Huge drop for only 8 levels difference.
The melee Bladesinger
Grey-Elf Swashbuckler 3/Ftr 2/Wiz 1/Bladesinger 10/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 3
1)Swashbuckler - Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Rapier
2)Fighter - Dodge
3)Swashbuckler - Grace +1, Combact Casting
4)Fighter - Combat Expertise
5)Swashbuckler - Insightful strike
6)Wizard - Scribe Scroll Strike, Practiced Spellcaster
7)Bladesinger Bladesong
8)Bladesinger Lesser Spellsong
9)Bladesinger - Mobility
10)Bladesinger - Song of Celerity (2nd)
11)Bladesinger -
12)Bladesinger - Greater Spellsong, Spring Attack
13)Bladesinger -
14)Bladesinger - Song of Celerity (4th)
15)Bladesinger - Arcane Strike
16)Bladesinger - Song of Fury
17)Spellsword
18)Eldritch Knight - Improved Crit (Rapier), Improved Toughness
19)Eldritch Knight
20)Eldritch Knight
BAB: +19 CL: 9 (13)
Saves: +14/+10/+13 HP: 4d10 + 1d4 + 11d8 + 3d6 + 10: 94,5 + (20x con. mod.)
This guy hasn't got that many spells, so he should use those few he's got to boost his AC and then proceed into melee. His AC can get very high, and at the higher levels he's able to hold his own in melee. Beware though, it might be a bit difficult getting there, so you need to be careful at the low levels.
The build isn't that powerful, but it's definitely playable, and it's one of the best ways to get the most bang for the buck with the CW Bladesinger.
Alternately, if you desperately want Channel Spell you can go Spellsword 4 in the last 4 levels. SoulLord often advocates this apporach. I wouldn't recommend it however - this guy is short on Caster Levels as is, losing one more would be very bad. BTW, he hasn't really got any high level damage dealing spell to channel into his weapon. I recommend sticking with the buffs and do your thing in melee.
I would be hesitant to qualify this as gish. The problem with bladesinger (what everyone whines about, and rightfully so) is the irritating progression of special abilities and spellcasting. Just changing it so a special ability is acquired at each level where spellcasting is increased would make this class dramatically better, but there is no reason to take 10 levels of spellsword. The extra attack isn't worth it, in my opinion, and you can save two feats by dipping into Dragonslayer (or add two feats by dipping one level of Bladesinger and one level of Dragonslayer) and continue a few levels of spellsword before filling the build out with Eldritch Knight. Fighter2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword3/Dragonslayer1/Eldritch Knight9/Bladesinger1, for example, will net you BAB +18 and CL 16. Arcane Preparation (for a sorcerer) and Quicken Spell (for both sorcerer and wizard) can give that build the most bang for its buck, but ending a gish build with only 9 levels of spellcasting where spells are of minimal impact makes for a sub-optimal build.
I'm not trying to demean your work, Dain, but I do see some choices that don't seem to add up to builds that can get the most out of their chosen classes. I hope what I offered was useful advice.
Ah, and some food for thought, I finally finished my Psychic Warrior/Cleric build.
Given the prefix Ftr 2/PAC 4, let's do some comparison.
Ftr 2/Wiz 4
BAB: +4
CL: 4
Saves: +4/+1/+4
HD: 2d10+4d4 (avg. 25.5)
Extras: two fighter feats, one wizard feat
Ftr 1/Wiz 2/Human Paragon 3
BAB: +4
CL: 4
Saves: +3/+1/+6
HD: 1d10+2d4+3d8 (avg. 28.5)
Extras: one fighter feat, one wizard feat, one free feat, one permanent class skill, +2 any attribute
Ftr 1/Sor 3/Half-elf Paragon 2
BAB: +3
CL: 4
Saves: +3/+1/+6
HD: 1d10+3d4+2d8 (avg. 26.5)
Extras: one fighter feat, one free feat, extra bonus to CHA skills, elfsight
Ftr 2/Sor 2/Half-elf Paragon 2
BAB: +4
CL: 3
Saves: +3/+0/+6
HD: 2d10+2d4+2d8 (avg. 29.5)
Extras: two fighter feats, one free feat, extra bonus to CHA skills, elfsight
Of these, I would say that the Human Paragon is clearly better than the pure fighter/wizard. The others would depend on what you wanted, and sacrifice either 1 point of BAB or 1 CL. But Human Paragon is GRRRRRREAT!
~hf
Useful enough build, though I'm uncertain about the paragon levels. They provide +2 to caster level, right?
Yep, the paragon levels provide a +2 on CL, +2 BAB, great skills and +2 to one AB score.
Anyway, even without Two-weapon Fighting, my (example) Master of Whips needs only acquire a speed weapon and he can deal out 6 attacks with a single whip. I think that's pretty optimal
I've actually never seen your whip build, shadow. But this build can get a Spiked Chain of Speed as well for the same number of attacks (6), and even more due to Karmic Strike and combat reflexes. This is as good as it gets.[EDIT]Just remembered that Speed weapons and haste doesn't stack. This guy is going to have haste cast on him as often as possible, hence he would never buy a speed weapon. The +3 weapon ench. could be used *a lot* more effeciently.[/EDIT]
This makes them pretty much unusable simultaneously, as you can only make a single attack afterward. Having both abilities seems sorta subpar, though if I'm wrong please prove me so. I'd like to see how they can work together.
You are indeed wrong. Channel Spell is a move action, but the spell remains in the weapon for eight hours. That should be long enough to make synergy with Arcane Strike, don't you think so?
Also, the feat choice needs a little work. Great Cleave will (realistically) almost NEVER come into play, Cleave should be more then enough, and quick draw won't help with a greatsword (...so I think...) and seems out of place in this build.
Why don't you think that Great Cleave will come into play? I find that it gets used a lot in high level battles. Especially when you think about the fact that this guy is going to deal *heavy* damage with Arcane Strike and Channel Spell. Granted, great cleave doesn't get used when you're fighting the BBEG, but it makes fighting your way through his minions a lot easier.
As for Quick Draw - why shouldn't that work with Greatsword? It makes drawing a weapon a free action, which means that you waste less actions at the higher levels. More actions = more options and more mobility = more power.
It isn't out of place in the build - the build is designed as a tank, and therefore it should have tankish feats, imo.
Empower Spell should be the first metamagic you take, and taken at the earliest level possible (by caster level 8th you should have it) as that particular feat is most useful early levels and has diminishing returns each level you can. For example, at Caster Level 7 the difference between a normal scorching ray and an Empowered one is a nearly 100% damage increase, while at Caster Level 15 the damage increase has fallen (for other spells) to only a 25% increase. Huge drop for only 8 levels difference.
What on earth are you talking about? Empower Spell always increases your damage by 50 %. There is no decrease in efficiency when you advance in levels. And you're gonna need a lot of spells for buffing and Arcane Strike in the lower levels, hence no room for use of the feat until level 15. You're not able to cast empowered firballs before level 14 anyway (CL 9). Getting Empower spell by caster level 10, which both my builds do, works out just fine.
I can, of course, make some minor adjustments on feats in the the part 2 build. And I have already suggested a minor change in the post, if you notice. But the feats aren't bad as they are now, I assure you.
The extra attack isn't worth it, in my opinion, and you can save two feats by dipping into Dragonslayer (or add two feats by dipping one level of Bladesinger and one level of Dragonslayer) and continue a few levels of spellsword before filling the build out with Eldritch Knight.
I'm not sure you quite understand the way this build works - it's main purpose is to get a sky high AC, and to do that it needs all the BS levels. The goodies in those levels are appreciated, but it's the AC bonus that really counts. And with magical items and spells this guy is going to get an int mod of +10 (=+10 AC).
If you want a spellcasting Bladesinger I still claim that JKs attempt at one is the best there has ever been done. I don't think you can trumph his Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 1/Bladesinger 5/Eldritch Knight 8. That's the best spellcasting CW Bladesinger there is, IMO. But as mentioned before, my guy really doesn't cast that many spells, he just casts a few buffs and then proceeds into melee.
Fighter2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword3/Dragonslayer1/Eldritch Knight9/Bladesinger1, for example, will net you BAB +18 and CL 16.
You talk about "dipping" into Bladesinger like that was actually an option. Taking only a few levels of Bladesinger is immensly sub-optimal because you waste *a lot* of feats getting into the danged PrC, and the payoff is hardly noticable if you only take one level. If you're not gonna take *at least* 5 levels you might as well not bother.
I'm not trying to demean your work, Dain, but I do see some choices that don't seem to add up to builds that can get the most out of their chosen classes. I hope what I offered was useful advice.
Although I am aware that you had friendly intentions I think you need to read the rules a little better the next time you critique, no offense.
- Dain
Shadow Mage, I think your blanket statement against Racial Paragon classes is a little unproven. These classes can be great, depending on what kind of emphasis your Gish has.
Given the prefix Ftr 2/PAC 4, let's do some comparison.
Ftr 2/Wiz 4
BAB: +4
CL: 4
Saves: +4/+1/+4
HD: 2d10+4d4 (avg. 25.5)
Extras: two fighter feats, one wizard feat
Ftr 1/Wiz 2/Human Paragon 3
BAB: +4
CL: 4
Saves: +3/+1/+6
HD: 1d10+2d4+3d8 (avg. 28.5)
Extras: one fighter feat, one wizard feat, one free feat, one permanent class skill, +2 any attribute
Ftr 1/Sor 3/Half-elf Paragon 2
BAB: +3
CL: 4
Saves: +3/+1/+6
HD: 1d10+3d4+2d8 (avg. 26.5)
Extras: one fighter feat, one free feat, extra bonus to CHA skills, elfsight
Ftr 2/Sor 2/Half-elf Paragon 2
BAB: +4
CL: 3
Saves: +3/+0/+6
HD: 2d10+2d4+2d8 (avg. 29.5)
Extras: two fighter feats, one free feat, extra bonus to CHA skills, elfsight
Of these, I would say that the Human Paragon is clearly better than the pure fighter/wizard. The others would depend on what you wanted, and sacrifice either 1 point of BAB or 1 CL. But Human Paragon is GRRRRRREAT!
~hf
TY. Human Paragon is an excellent class for all sorts of things, and that prefix makes a stronger start for Spellsword than Ftr2/Wiz4. Note that Elf Paragon gives the same BAB and CL progression as human paragon, with the restriction that the CL must go to wizard levels. Also, the EP gets an ability boost only to Int.
Ftr1/Wiz or Sorc 2/HuP3/SS1/DS1 is an 8th lvl gish of great power.
In my very particular point of view......
yes spellcasting level is important for a gish but it wont equal a full time spellcaster.
the only class with full bab and almost full spell casting progresion is the eldritch knight. so lets compare the two
Bladesinger vs eldritch knight
Spellcasting eldritch knight
Hit dice bladesinger
Saves bladesinger
bab Same
armor bladesinger
Extras bladesinger
Spellsword vs eldritch knight
Spellcasting eldritch knight
hit dice spellsword
Saves spellsword
bab same
armor spellsword
extras spellsword
SoulLord
Yep, the paragon levels provide a +2 on CL, +2 BAB, great skills and +2 to one AB score.
Sounds good so far...
I've actually never seen your whip build, shadow. But this build can get a Spiked Chain of Speed as well for the same number of attacks (6), and even more due to Karmic Strike and combat reflexes. This is as good as it gets.
That's fine if you haven't seen it, it was just a reference, but I do see where you're going with that. Point taken. If you're interested, you can check here.
You are indeed wrong. Channel Spell is a move action, but the spell remains in the weapon for eight hours. That should be long enough to make synergy with Arcane Strike, don't you think so?
Mmm, never noticed the duration of a channeled spell. That being said, it would make for a good combination. Hurrah, I learned something I should've known anyway.
Why don't you think that Great Cleave will come into play? I find that it gets used a lot in high level battles. Especially when you think about the fact that this guy is going to deal *heavy* damage with Arcane Strike and Channel Spell. Granted, great cleave doesn't get used when you're fighting the BBEG, but it makes fighting your way through his minions a lot easier.
As for Quick Draw - why shouldn't that work with Greatsword? It makes drawing a weapon a free action, which means that you waste less actions at the higher levels. More actions = more options and more mobility = more power.
I guess I'm still in 3.0 regarding what weapons can and/or cannot be used with Quick Draw. I never said the feat wasn't useful, I simply questioned its use with greatsword. The feat itself is probably the simplest, most useful feat in the book for ALL classes, which I like very much. In regards to Great Cleave I suppose I've never been in a case where I've needed more then the one extra attack. In high number of attack builds cleave/great cleave is much less useful, and even in builds where "only" 4-5 attacks are possible at later levels I still don't see any more use for those extra attacks beyond what Cleave would provide. I suppose that's situational, you'd choose the feat depending on how your DM has performed thus far into the campaign/adventure. It's at just the right level to make that decision effectively anyhow.
It isn't out of place in the build - the build is designed as a tank, and therefore it should have tankish feats, imo.
Tankish feats vs useful feats appropriate for the build are typically different things. I see that particular build as a power attack, arcane strike, -tips hat- quick draw, improved toughness, empower spell, and twin spell sort of build, one who focuses on high offensive.
What on earth are you talking about? Empower Spell always increases your damage by 50 %. There is no decrease in efficiency when you advance in levels. And you're gonna need a lot of spells for buffing and Arcane Strike in the lower levels, hence no room for use of the feat until level 15. You're not able to cast empowered firballs before level 14 anyway (CL 9). Getting Empower spell by caster level 10, which both my builds do, works out just fine.
I went through this on another board, here is the post if you want to read it. Ignore the comment about moving back to the main topic. here. Essentially, the spell's most useful moments are at earlier levels where 50% more damage was a LOT more useful then at later levels.
I'm not sure you quite understand the way this build works - it's main purpose is to get a sky high AC, and to do that it needs all the BS levels. The goodies in those levels are appreciated, but it's the AC bonus that really counts. And with magical items and spells this guy is going to get an int mod of +10 (=+10 AC).
If you want a spellcasting Bladesinger I still claim that JKs attempt at one is the best there has ever been done. I don't think you can trumph his Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 1/Bladesinger 5/Eldritch Knight 8. That's the best spellcasting CW Bladesinger there is, IMO. But as mentioned before, my guy really doesn't cast that many spells, he just casts a few buffs and then proceeds into melee.
You are correct that this build can achieve amazingly high AC, and now that I've taken time to look at it better I can see the use in that. The bonus to AC Bladesong Style provides, along with the bonus to damage via Intelligence and Improved Critical for the rapier makes this a pretty good build. I still can't call it gish, mind you, because it doesn't have enough focus in spellcasting to quailfy as that, but its ranked right on up there in usefulness to a party.
You talk about "dipping" into Bladesinger like that was actually an option. Taking only a few levels of Bladesinger is immensly sub-optimal because you waste *a lot* of feats getting into the danged PrC, and the payoff is hardly noticable if you only take one level. If you're not gonna take *at least* 5 levels you might as well not bother.
-cough- Argument for another thread, perhaps, because I agree with you simply because the current bladesinger is underpowered, especially considering its feat requirements. IF the bladesinger becomes redone and can match up to other gish-like PrCs then we can effectively argue the usefulness of dipping. As it stands now, however, you are correct unless a player has the sort of build that's extremely tight on feats and doesn't mind mismatched feats as his class abilities make up for them.
Although I am aware that you had friendly intentions I think you need to read the rules a little better the next time you critique, no offense.
- Dain
None taken, it's always pleasant to learn and argue without flaming problems. -glances over at Classes/Prestige Classes forum- ;)
With that said, I like the idea of taking Human Paragon levels for the early levels. Seems to make for a stronger build all around.
Channel Spell + Arcane Strike = awesome :D :D :D Don't forget to throw in Insightful Strike too (Swashbuckler)
Swashbuckler3/Wizard1/Paragon3/Bladesinger10/Spellsword1/Dragonslayer1
This is a 19th level build that provides +17 BAB and has a CL of 10. The last level is largely dependent on what I learn from paragons and whether or not a half elf paragon can take levels in Elf or Human paragon as well. All else fails, an extra level of wizard would raise BAB and CL both +1 to provide for a solid Bladesinger build.
I actually figure that this is the best use of Arcane Strike because there is no way you can get more attacks than this guy - 2 weapon fighting doesn't work with Arcane Strike, as was clarified in JKs thread.
Er, even with a double weapon? On one hand you can say it's one whole weapon, so AS would apply to the entire thing, and on the other, you might say that each weapon 'head' is a weapon. I'm following the former arguement as of now. If it's wrong though, I'll have to edit my chain gish, since a double weapon being considered two separate weapons would kind of kill the basis of the build.
Well, depending on how paragons work this build might present a better option then Jonathan's.
Swashbuckler3/Wizard1/Paragon3/Bladesinger10/Spellsword1/Dragonslayer1
This is a 19th level build that provides +17 BAB and has a CL of 10. The last level is largely dependent on what I learn from paragons and whether or not a half elf paragon can take levels in Elf or Human paragon as well. All else fails, an extra level of wizard would raise BAB and CL both +1 to provide for a solid Bladesinger build.
A Half Elf can take levels in Elf Paragon OR Human Paragon (not both) after taking a level of Half-Elf Paragon, but, Half Elf Paragons only get one caster level increase, so it's usually best to be a full blooded human or elf and take yor respective paragon class.
Well, depending on how paragons work this build might present a better option then Jonathan's.
Swashbuckler3/Wizard1/Paragon3/Bladesinger10/Spellsword1/Dragonslayer1
This is a 19th level build that provides +17 BAB and has a CL of 10. The last level is largely dependent on what I learn from paragons and whether or not a half elf paragon can take levels in Elf or Human paragon as well. All else fails, an extra level of wizard would raise BAB and CL both +1 to provide for a solid Bladesinger build.
It'll have to be an Elf Paragon, as Half-elf Paragons only get +1 CL.
Half Elves who have at least 1 lvl of HEP can take levels in either Human or Elf paragon BUT NOT BOTH.
No, Oromyn, divine casters are not considered gish. Considering the origin of the word alone, githyanki didn't have any divine casters of note except for blackguards and rangers. Yes, a cleric or druid meets the mentioned requisites for the title "gish" but because of the overpowered nature of these two classes in relation to other classes, they are on a whole different level.
This is a great thread SMage, went back to the first page and read your additions. We'll be thankful for this for ages to come.
Found another good gish PrC in Complete Divine, of all places! Check the Sacred Exorcist. Armor proficiencies, full CL progression, 3/4 BAB, from 1st lvl in the class you gain the ability to turn undead which allows for us to use divine feats, and bunch of bonuses against incorporeal foes who like to possess people or objects. Yes, arcane casters can become Sacred Exorcists.
~hf
Alright, I'm now adding Sacred Exorcist to the classes/prestige classes section, a few more feats to the feat section, and the spell selection (as has been detailed before) is coming up next. I won't include psionic powers and/or feats just yet because I want to get a definite structure going.
Though this is a very informative thread, I might end up starting another from scratch and post all of my things at once in one long coherent and organized thread, the first five or six posts all pertaining to the information we've put together on gish. I cringe at the "there's already lots of these threads" comments I'm going to get, but I'm sure everyone who visits this thread has noticed it's becoming little better then JK's larger thread. Though this is still in the air, I'd like to hear opinions from people on this before everything's finished.
EDIT: Turns out I won't be able to post until much later, probably tomorrow evening at the earliest. MS Word ate my spell review.
Sorry for the wait.Race: Elan (or another race that starts with psionic power points)
Hexblade 7 / Ur-priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 4 / Warmind 7
BAB: +16
Max Spell Level: Arcane 3 / Divine 6 / Psionic 3
CL: Arcane 5 / Divine 11 / Psionic 7
You need to take Education and probably Practiced spellcaster (Arcane).
The point is combine low level spells from all disciplines to create a powerful fighter.
Another build I came up with was...
Monk 2 / Swashbuckler 3 / Warmind 7 / Ur-Priest 2 / Sacred Fist 2 / Nar Demonbinder 2 / Mystic Theurge 2
BAB +16, Max Level 6/6/3, CL 10/8/7
This one avoids MAD as much as you use Wis and Int for AC and attack and the Fiend Form can grant you respectable Str/Dex/Con scores. Arcane Preparation can give the Demonbinder access to Corrupt spells (BoVD) to flesh out the spell list. Before you get Fiendform you may have to rely on a mage or magic item to polymorph you.
I both cases You don't have many feats to spare but you do end up with very nice saving throws.
What do people think?
Lord Kiwi
That said, LordKiwi's builds I hesitate to call gish. I don't know how effective they are because a little more information is needed (such as several examples of spells known that will make it the build useful). Remember, most builds with only +16 BAB by 20th level have something else to compensate (typically 17-18 caster levels/manifester levels).
Although, that has given me the inspiration to try my hand at my own build. It isn't quite the potential quadruple threat that LordKiwi's builds are, but as a triple threat it still rocks.
That said, LordKiwi's builds I hesitate to call gish. I don't know how effective they are because a little more information is needed (such as several examples of spells known that will make it the build useful). Remember, most builds with only +16 BAB by 20th level have something else to compensate (typically 17-18 caster levels/manifester levels).
The point of the builds is to use many low level spells to get the best effects. Imagine combining the following...
Fiend Form (Dire Wolverine or Dinonycus)
Power Leech (used on summoned creatures, gives enhancement bonuses = CL to stats of choice, practicaly, for 10 mins/CL)
Divine Power
Rightrous Might
Expandion
Claws of the Vampire
Psionic Lion's Charge
Which gives a collosal beast that heals half the damage it causes, +20 BAB, large bonuses to stats and full attack on a charge. Divine metamagic can be used to make one or two of them persistent.
Another thing to do is combine the spells that give bonuses.
Divine Favour (Luck to Hit and Damage)
Offensive Precognision (Insight to Attack)
Offensive Presience (Insight to damage)
Let you have a larger bonus to hit and damage than the individual spells could manage (can luck/insight bonuses aren't normally very common).
I have to to think about the full effect of all the spells. It'll take alote more time to fully realise.
Although, that has given me the inspiration to try my hand at my own build. It isn't quite the potential quadruple threat that LordKiwi's builds are, but as a triple threat it still rocks.
I can see how divine magic would have no place in a Gish. Maybe a quadruple threat psion/arcane/fighter/rogue may still qualify and be good, arcane/psion powers should be good for ensuring sneak attacks (summons, invisibility etc.).
Arcane/Psion powers should mesh well together and allow more power in each type, which would probably be nice.
Lord Kiwi
The point of the builds is to use many low level spells to get the best effects. Imagine combining the following...
Fiend Form (Dire Wolverine or Dinonycus)
Power Leech (used on summoned creatures, gives enhancement bonuses = CL to stats of choice, practicaly, for 10 mins/CL)
Divine Power
Rightrous Might
Expandion
Claws of the Vampire
Psionic Lion's Charge
Which gives a collosal beast that heals half the damage it causes, +20 BAB, large bonuses to stats and full attack on a charge. Divine metamagic can be used to make one or two of them persistent.
That's a hefty list of spells it has to use to become effective. Even quickening one spell/power per round, you'd just be able to finish buffing yourself up by the time combat ends. I just don't see how a bunch of third level spells, for example, can be better then one fifth level spell, you know?
Another thing to do is combine the spells that give bonuses.
Divine Favour (Luck to Hit and Damage)
Offensive Precognision (Insight to Attack)
Offensive Presience (Insight to damage)
Let you have a larger bonus to hit and damage than the individual spells could manage (can luck/insight bonuses aren't normally very common).
I have to to think about the full effect of all the spells. It'll take alote more time to fully realise.
This still would take at least two rounds to finish buffing, and by then combat is well under way. No gish build should ever require more then one spell to be effective at any sort of martial combat, and if I were to use the exact definition of gish they shouldn't need any spells at all.
I can see how divine magic would have no place in a Gish. Maybe a quadruple threat psion/arcane/fighter/rogue may still qualify and be good, arcane/psion powers should be good for ensuring sneak attacks (summons, invisibility etc.).
Arcane/Psion powers should mesh well together and allow more power in each type, which would probably be nice.
Lord Kiwi
Arcane spells and psionics can mesh wonderfully or clash horribly. It is seriously dependent on two things: first, what you want them to do, second, how good or smart a player is with spell and power choice. I can make a fighter/mage/psion very easily (see my above build, for example), but the moment you introduce a quarduple threat into the mix it becomes strained. Quadruple threating with psionics is very taxing on ability scores and resources, but mixing arcane and divine (with emphasis on arcane) should be able to create pretty good mixes. I'm not so proficient with the triple or quadruple threats myslelf, but there is a thread somewhere on these boards with a bunch of 'em.
That's a hefty list of spells it has to use to become effective. Even quickening one spell/power per round, you'd just be able to finish buffing yourself up by the time combat ends. I just don't see how a bunch of third level spells, for example, can be better then one fifth level spell, you know?
I can see what you mean. The character would only be really effective if he knew battle was coming or he could get most of the effects to become persistent. Schism would be useful for getting out multiple powers (it's telepaph only but that's what Psychic Chirurgery is for
).I think several low level spells can combine to become better than a high level spells if you choose the right ones but the extra time to cast them makes it impossible to use effectivly most of the time.
It's also possible the build would need too many feats for it's spellcasting to have any left to make an effective fighter when it doesn't have spells. I think I'll probably give up on it as a nice idea but impossible to realise.
Arcane spells and psionics can mesh wonderfully or clash horribly. It is seriously dependent on two things: first, what you want them to do, second, how good or smart a player is with spell and power choice.
Hmmm, I like the idea of attacking with a Cursed blade of the Vampire (target can't heal and you just have).
I can make a fighter/mage/psion very easily (see my above build, for example), but the moment you introduce a quarduple threat into the mix it becomes strained. Quadruple threating with psionics is very taxing on ability scores and resources,
For ability scores, I think it may be useful to investigate ways of cutting down MAD by either transfering or boosting statistics, for instance Polymorphing, Deep Warden AC, Swashbuckler Damage, Monks AC and Zen Archery. But I think that's a story for another thread. I'll give it some more thought and start one up.
but mixing arcane and divine (with emphasis on arcane) should be able to create pretty good mixes. I'm not so proficient with the triple or quadruple threats myslelf, but there is a thread somewhere on these boards with a bunch of 'em.
Divine magic creates a very good mix no matter what you do with it (practicaly).
Lord Kiwi
The point of the builds is to use many low level spells to get the best effects. Imagine combining the following...
Fiend Form (Dire Wolverine or Dinonycus)
Power Leech (used on summoned creatures, gives enhancement bonuses = CL to stats of choice, practicaly, for 10 mins/CL)
Divine Power
Rightrous Might
Expandion
Claws of the Vampire
Psionic Lion's Charge
Which gives a collosal beast that heals half the damage it causes, +20 BAB, large bonuses to stats and full attack on a charge. Divine metamagic can be used to make one or two of them persistent.
Another thing to do is combine the spells that give bonuses.
Divine Favour (Luck to Hit and Damage)
Offensive Precognision (Insight to Attack)
Offensive Presience (Insight to damage)
Let you have a larger bonus to hit and damage than the individual spells could manage (can luck/insight bonuses aren't normally very common).
I have to to think about the full effect of all the spells. It'll take alote more time to fully realise.
Lord Kiwi
One lucky dispel magic will ruin your day after you spent half the combat buffing yourself.
One lucky dispel magic will ruin your day after you spent half the combat buffing yourself.
Not even that lucky, the CL of the effects will be releativly low. I've given up on the triple magic warrior idea now, it's just not practicle.
Lord Kiwi
remember, first and for most, a Gish is a martial combatant.
Not even that lucky, the CL of the effects will be releativly low. I've given up on the triple magic warrior idea now, it's just not practicle.
Lord Kiwi
EQ can help with that. Like spellbane weapon mod or ring of spell battle/ring of counter spelling. Also practiced spell caster + spell girding nets you +6 CL for dispel purposes. So not THAT bad.
I think that gishes should avoid divine and psion and be more focused on being the warrior/mage. By going for divine and psion you're delaying or eliminating the things that help make you an effective gish, like spellsword, eldritch knight, and arcane strike. I like a flexible character as much as anyone else but the gish is flexible enough as it is without adding more to take away from the focus already needed to be a effective gish.
Divine, yes. Psion, no. You tell me when a Fighter4/Psion1/Illithid Slayer10/Elocater5 doesn't become effective. BAB +17 and manifester level 13 without even trying. Psionic gish can simply own combat, especially ones who are more balanced regarding BAB and CL. You have to remember that psionics, for almost all intents and purposes (though I don't agree personally with this) are considered magical in nature. There is no reason whatsoever that most of the gish related prestige classes couldn't be translated to psionics (cerebral knight as the psionic version of eldritch knight, for example). The same works with feats. Besides, how does going psionic gish "take away" from a character?
If you want to be a buff monkey, be a cleric. Gish's do not rely on buffs alone. At most, a Gish should be cast one or two buffs before closing to melee. Maybe more with quicken spell feat. If you can't be effective without a million buffs, you're not a Gish...
remember, first and for most, a Gish is a martial combatant.
Closing to melee? Hm... I need to get my types of gish up asap, probably later tonight in fact, to show you that spell-focused or ranged gish are just as effective as meleeists. My assassin gish in particular. But you are correct in that a gish spending most of his time buffing is not a gish but rather a...well, buffer, I suppose. Actually, I'll be posting my Types of Gish before the spell list, I see more a need for that information in immediate understanding of gish then for the spell list.
As for the "gish is a martial combatant" comment, remember what tore apart JosephKell's board. His definition of "gish" was too strict and many people did not agree with that, so as I've said in the first post the definition on this board of "gish" is expanded to include ALL warrior/mages, regardless of their focus. The only prerequisite for a "gish" title is a character who can fight well and cast well. A BAB of +15 is nothing to scoff at since you can probably net a caster level of at least 18 (19 without much effort).
Ah, and I've posted the "Types of Gish" section, but my links don't seem to want to work. Anyway, check it out, now I get to divide my time between the Spells Review and Strategies.
Any views? For or against?
heres a PH spell list of long term spells useful for the gish
1st lvl
Mage armor 1/hour every level
2nd
false life 1/hour every level
darkvision 1/hour every level
3rd
Magic weapon greater 1/hour every level
4th
extended magic weapon greater 2/hour every level
5th
overland flight 1/hour every level
prying eyes 1/hour every level
6th
contingency 1/day every level
7th
extended contingency 2/day every level
8th
dimensional lock 1/day every level
mind blank 24 hours
moment of prescience 1/hour every level
antypathy 2/hours every level
prying eyes greater 1/hour every level
feel free to add other sources..
EDIT: Just added the Ninja class to the Martial section of the first post as well. Enjoy.
Oh yeah, and a Gish tactic: Lay down Wall of Fire (possibly maximized, or empowered) and be a polymorphed (possibly enlarged after that) War Troll behind it. On your own turn, keep on casting another Wall of Fire on top of your last one. If anyone tries to charge through, use your attack of opportunity to Knockback. INCREDIBLY lethal, against single or multiple enemies, if used in close quarters. In open areas, use as a defensive technique: with the wall of fire in a circle around you, cast on your round and only create a wall of fire every other turn (unless you have a rod of quicken spell handy). Note recasts of Wall of Fire do favor sorcerors.
RadicalTaoist
I hope you understand why I won't add that into the prestige class section. It's tempting, but because the class doesn't provide any sort of increased spellcasting ability...well, I suppose it depends. If you could give me more information about this armor (particularly Arcane Spell Failure) and list for me the prerequisites I can let you or someone else who has access to the PrC write up the review for it, I just don't like the idea of adding something that might be too out of the way, you know? If it literally functions like masterwork chain mail with +8 armor then I'd say alright if it can be enchanted with Twilight (-20% asf, correct?) and a level of spellsword would cover the total ASF. Anyway, I need a few more details before I run and add something that I have no knowledge about to the pestige classes section.
As for your comment about strategy/tactics, if I were to begin listing all of the martial-based spell combos I'd have one very, very long list in ONE category. I hope the basics will spark enough creativity in people, though that is a sound tactic. Perfect for balanced gish because it combines martial ability with a relatively high (17ish) Caster Level. Props to you on that.
Reqs for the Vassal are BAB +7, 5 ranks in Diplomacy and Craft (armorsmithing), LG alignment, and the Exalted feats Sacred Vow and Vow of Obedience. In addition, you must have single handedly slain a young (or older) red dragon. Perfect BAB, good Fort save, poor Ref and Will, d10 HD. You get the ability to create platinum armor (from the scales of a juvenile or older red dragon, takes 2 days per character level, no activity besides eating and sleeping allowed) at 1st level. It weighs 25 pounds and confers a +8 AC bonus, and 'it's other properties are as masterwork chain shirt (+4 max Dex bonus, armor check penalty -1, 10% spell failure chance)' as directly quoted from the Book of Exalted Deeds.
Rgr 1/Wiz 2/Human Paragon3/Harper Paragon4/Vassal of Bahamut 1/Dragonslayer 1/EK 8
BAB +17, CL 16
Celestial Spells, Favored enemy evil, detect evil, platinum armor with no ASF, aura of good, aura of courage, imperious aura, good skills, etc.
~hf
Rgr 1/Wiz 2/Human Paragon3/Harper Paragon4/Vassal of Bahamut 1/Dragonslayer 1/Harper Paragon 5-8/EK 4.
Now the only problem is killing that red dragon.
Lee
I'm going by memory here so i may be wrong, but is there a reason not to go Harper Paragon 8, EK 4 vs Harper Paragon 4, EK 8. You'd lose 1 bab, but get a few more class abilities and a better skill list.
Rgr 1/Wiz 2/Human Paragon3/Harper Paragon4/Vassal of Bahamut 1/Dragonslayer 1/Harper Paragon 5-8/EK 4.
Now the only problem is killing that red dragon.
Lee
Good pont on that, but then I would go
Human Paragon 1/ Wiz 2/ Human Paragon 2+3/ Harper Paragon 1-4/ Dragonslayer 1/ Vassal of Bahamut 1/ Spellsword 1/ Harper Paragon 5-8/ EK 4
Same BAB, but CL 17 for Level 9 Spells
You have to take Foe Hunter at first Level and there's still that Dragon ;)
/dripping sarcasm
You are right about the extra levels of Harper Paragon, I was just going towards the highest BAB.
~hf
So...anyone wanna fill me in on the apparent wonders of this class?
Ah, and so far I have for my newest addition to the prestige classes this:
Vassal of Bahamut
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +7, Craft (armorsmithing) 5 ranks, Diplomacy 5 ranks, Sacred Vow, Vow of Obedience, Must have single-handedly slain a young or older red dragon.
Merits: I assume full BAB, probably a couple good abilities, dunno in general
Drawbacks: yeah, noncaster class that I need more info on
Good levels to jump out after: Er...1?
Good drop-levels: 2-9
Good lead ins: oi, don't know because I'm unfamiliar with the Vows of BoED
NOTE: This class is EXCLUSIVELY a dip class, as I've said before. While many would argue against it being gish, I can see the usefulness one level of this PrC would provide at later levels.
Fill in the blanks, so to speak. ;)
Now, VoB is a poor choice for most Gishes to carry beyond lvl 1 as it offers no caster progression, perfect BAB and d10 HD nonwithstanding. It does however, offer limited divine spellcasting (mostly paladinish buffs), bonus feats (of the exalted and fighter variety) and two nifty class features called shared trove and dragonwrack. Shared trove, which you can receive 3 times, 3 lvls apart each in the 10-lvl progression of the VoV, gives you a big pile of platinum pieces, size depending on your VoB level, meaning that devoted Vassals of Bahamut can become QUITE wealthy. It's good to worship dragons
. Dragonwrack does bonus damage to evil dragons that you hit and that hit you with natural attacks.I looked at the Platinum Knight and the Talon of Tiamat and thought....feh.
Anyway, thank you for the information Radical about the Vassal of Bahamut, and I'll go ahead and add it but I still need a relatively complete list of its abilities unless you can provide the writeup yourself.
Hm...these sound like good builds but I know absolutely nothing about the Harper Paragon. I'm only familiar with the Master Harper (which does not impress me at all)
Master Harper is in the Exalted/ Vile Section of PGtF. It's main goodies are D10 HD, Medium BAB, Favored Enemy improvement and a great Skill List, usually a great Drawback of most Gish Builds. The Great Skills goes for the Master Harper too, but you're absolutely right: It's not so great for a Gish, as their Skill reuirements are close to not to fulfill with typical Gish classes. Besides of this it's one of my personal Favorites ;)
The concept of a gish specialized in defeating spellcasters holds a certain appeal to me.
Required race- drow (use the drow0, the ecl 0 drow that's still wizard friendly)
fighter1/wizard2/drowparagon3/spellsword1/EK10/dragonslayer1/archmage2
BAB 17, CL 17
Dragon slayer and archmage can be replaced but I chose them because I felt it best filled out the build, any more ideas would be nice.
This is a high dex (a base score of 14 ,+2 from drow ,+2 from drow paragon ,+6 from gloves of dex = 24 dex without any effort), balanced, middleweight gish build.
dwarf
2fighter/4wizard/4spellsword/1runecaster/3rauthmari battlemage/4sacred exorcist/1spellsword/1rauthmari battlemage
16 caster level (20 w/ practiced caster) 15 BAB
it dosent have 16 bab but it does have a lot of channeling ability from both battlemage and spell sword. he can also cast in full armor w/ no chance of spell failure.
i like sacred exorcist over eldritch knight because it gave better HP (needed to make up for battlemage) and it lets you take feats like divine vigor (+2 temp hp/lvl and +10 movement for 1min for every charisma bonus) and divine might or divine shield if you want.
this is a tank gish if u havent figured it out, wearing heavy armor and using his bastard sword 2handed or 1handed w/ a shield.
for stats i would recomend you prioritize them as such: int, con, str, cha, dex, wis
did i make any glaring errors? what would you do to improve this build?
thanx for your imput
fighter1/wizard2/drowparagon3/spellsword1/EK10/dragonslayer1/archmage2
why do you take the lvls of archmage? what abilities do you really like in there? just curious.
Mirror Move
lets you get free feats, very useful for wizard gish
Bladesong
is it me or is there no save for the daze part, i suggest house-ruling it have a fort save or be dazed
a friend pointed these spells out to me
is it me or is there no save for the daze part, i suggest house-ruling it have a fort save or be dazed
I suppose it has no save because you already have to make an attack roll. Compare Scorching Ray and Fireball.
why do you take the lvls of archmage? what abilities do you really like in there? just curious.
I threw the archmage levels in there to put something in there you don't see in most gishes. As far as abilities, it's very situational, depending on my party, how my build ends up (archery or melee), among other things. I do like the one that lets you do a touch attack up to 30 feet away.
An alternative more feat flexible (or if your DM is stingy on the PrCs) version of my drow build:
fighter1/wizard6/drowparagon3/spellsword1/EK9
BAB 16, CL 17
One less BAB and you lose the dragon slayer and archmage abilities but you're free to do what you want with your feats and you have one extra feat due to the extra wizard levels.
About the Harper Paragon: Back to the harper paragon comment, since it doesn't appear to have ANY spellcasting, I don't see usefulness to the PrC. The Vassal at least provides a very useful first level ability.
About the Occult Slayer: Why? You take two classes and loose two spellcaster levels, whereas every other gish-related PrC build will lose only +1 caster level at the most after two levels. I don't even like the occult slayer as a mage-killing class, personally. The ability to turn back spells uses only the occult slayer levels +5 and vicious strike isn't overly useful. Its prerequisites don't seem to mesh well with any build, that I can tell (except more martial builds), and even then I hope a character is willing to give up magical abilities on their weapons, continusously hate themselves, and be willing to sacrifice those two caster levels.
Regarding the drow paragon idea, I've been playing a lot with the drow, elf, and human paragons, particularly drow since I can feel a nice vibe from assassin focused drow gish. Take a look at this.
Wizard2/Drow Paragon3/Sneak Attack Fighter2/Spellsword1/Arcane Trickster2/Eldritch Knight8
This would provide you with +15 BAB and a CL of 14. While not impressive by typical combat gish standards, the amount of skills, sneak attack ability, and outright usability make this one fun build. Still using a drow paragon, here's another build I like, much more martial.
Fighter2/Wizard2/Drow Paragon3/Spellsword3/Dragonslayer1/Eldritch Knight7
Now we have a +16 Base Attack and 13 Caster Level build that has more then a couple bonus feats and would work perfectly as a ranged gish type OR melee gish type if focused on Dexterity in combat.
Anyway, I'm still making up builds for the Elf Paragon, but they're relatively easy and there is no need to post them. Drow are more complicated with the +2 LA (make notes people, 20-level builds need to be dropped to 18 levels since we seem to be using the ECL20 build chart a lot), but still I think at ECL 20 they're just as effective even though they're 2 levels behind.
True but I do want to point out that in post 266 I stated I was using the LA 0 version of the drow, which drops spell resistance and +2 cha and halves darkvision to 60', not a big deal to gishes, so my builds are kosher. I do think that the Drow0 is one of the best races to use fo a gish, or a wizard for that manner since they do get +2 to int and dex and males have wizard as their favored class.
True but I do want to point out that in post 266 I stated I was using the LA 0 version of the drow, which drops spell resistance and +2 cha and halves darkvision to 60', not a big deal to gishes, so my builds are kosher. I do think that the Drow0 is one of the best races to use fo a gish, or a wizard for that manner since they do get +2 to int and dex and males have wizard as their favored class.
Hm, apologies for not seeing the post where you mentioned that. I don't know where that variant drow is, but it's overpowered for LA +0, considering it still recieves a net positive boost to ability scores, spell-like abilities, magic resistance, racial proficiencies, and other such things. The three spell-like abilities alone raise the LA +1, if I'm not mistaken, so for my builds I'll continue to use the 18-level build, though at least now I understand where you're coming from.
Ah, and here's an Elf Paragon build, as a follow-up example to my last post.
Swashbuckler3/Elf Paragon3/Wizard2/Bladesinger10/Spellsword1/Dragonslayer1
This lands you +18 Base Attack with a Caster Level of 11, which for spells is unimpressive but provide you have a gold elf that's a total of +4 to Intelligence for its race, +5 for levels (for example), and that's 27 assuming a starting Intelligence (base) score of 18. Without magic items, that's a +8 bonus to AC, plus Dexterity (likely at least +3), and the same +8 to weapon damage rolls (with Dexterity going to attack rolls). Nifty, eh?
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a
About the Harper Paragon: Back to the harper paragon comment, since it doesn't appear to have ANY spellcasting, I don't see usefulness to the PrC. The Vassal at least provides a very useful first level ability.
Sorry for not explicitely stating that, but it has Full Caster Progression, so it's a good one!
+4 luck bonus on melee touch attacks, any touch spell is automatically maximized.
Requirements to wear: sacrifice a sixth level divine spell slot or take the True Believer Feat from Complete Divine. At least 11 HD.
They can be easly built: CL 17, Sanctify Relic feat, Craft Wondrous Item, Maximize Spell, creator must worship Hextor; price 33,600 gp.
If so :
Gold dwarf white dragonspawn (la bought off:devil
(militia)sorcerer 9 (dwarven racial sub levels)/dragon slayer1/runesmith1/eldricht knight 9.CL:20!!!!
BaB:15
special goodies: better stats, con to spells per day, cast in armour
(if DM rules that battle sorcerer can use racial sub level abilities as sorcerer take that instead for 20 CL (with a fair amount of extra spells) & 17 BaB.)
I can't believe i couldn't think of anything better the EK to put in....CL20 is more then enough for a blaster. Would skipping runesmith & taking 10 levels of spellsword be better, just because i don't need that boring EK. this would come out caster level 16, BaB15 but i can channel 2 spells, 3 with a spellstoring weapon. If i think loads of enemies are coming i can put 3 castings of horrid wilting in & do 48 D6 to all of them
.On a side note does the racial sub levels for dwarf sorcerer make con primary spellcasting stat or just extra spells (never lending anything to my friend again
)....because ive been considering a gish with dwarf paragon Can we post builds here for 'review'?
If so :
Gold dwarf white dragonspawn (la bought off:devil
CL:20!!!!
BaB:15
special goodies: better stats, con to spells per day, cast in armour
(if DM rules that battle sorcerer can use racial sub level abilities as sorcerer take that instead for 20 CL (with a fair amount of extra spells) & 17 BaB.)
I can't believe i couldn't think of anything better the EK to put in....CL20 is more then enough for a blaster. Would skipping runesmith & taking 10 levels of spellsword be better, just because i don't need that boring EK. this would come out caster level 16, BaB15 but i can channel 2 spells, 3 with a spellstoring weapon. If i think loads of enemies are coming i can put 3 castings of horrid wilting in & do 48 D6 to all of them
On a side note does the racial sub levels for dwarf sorcerer make con primary spellcasting stat or just extra spells (never lending anything to my friend again
A dragonspawn dragon slayer is going to have some issues.
A dragonspawn dragon slayer is going to have some issues.
White dragons are evil & could want you to kill other dragons, both good & evil.
Can we post builds here for 'review'?
If so :
Gold dwarf white dragonspawn (la bought off:devil
CL:20!!!!
BaB:15
special goodies: better stats, con to spells per day, cast in armour
(if DM rules that battle sorcerer can use racial sub level abilities as sorcerer take that instead for 20 CL (with a fair amount of extra spells) & 17 BaB.)
I can't believe i couldn't think of anything better the EK to put in....CL20 is more then enough for a blaster. Would skipping runesmith & taking 10 levels of spellsword be better, just because i don't need that boring EK. this would come out caster level 16, BaB15 but i can channel 2 spells, 3 with a spellstoring weapon. If i think loads of enemies are coming i can put 3 castings of horrid wilting in & do 48 D6 to all of them
On a side note does the racial sub levels for dwarf sorcerer make con primary spellcasting stat or just extra spells (never lending anything to my friend again
I'd prefer if you post builds to post them with a little more format (not necessarily a 20-level-layout but at least something like in the first page of posts near the bottom) but either way there're a few problems with the build.
First, It's caster level 19, the first level of EK is a dead level for spellcasting.
Second, there's the issue of race. Gold dwarves being typically LAWFUL GOOD OR NEUTRAL and white dragons being CHAOTIC EVIL. The other part of this argument comes with, as was said earlier, a draconic dragonslayer (which I'd houserule should not be allowed except in very specific cases).
Third, 9 levels of sorcerer won't allow you to qualify for runesmith, if I'm not mistaken, and why a 9th level of a primary casting class? You don't get anything and can better spend that level jumping into spellsword or something after taking a few levels of EK and then dragonslayer.
FYI, spells are a-postin' once I finish up here real quick with 9th level spells and I'll add to them periodically when I thoroughly go through Manual of the Planes, the splat books, Draconomicon, and others.
A dragonspawn dragon slayer is going to have some issues.
I think it makes perfect sense in all respects. Gold dwarfs and white dragons are likely to share similar habitats. Nothing would make an evil dragon more happy the corrupting one of the good locals into being it's servant.
And once the white dragon is dead, the freed dragonspawn is going to have quite a vendetta to persue!
Biggest issue for the build: Runesmith is worthless for sorcerers
[Edit] Second biggest issue: I question the legality of using Battlesorcerer as "sorcerer" for dwarf sub levels. Of course, you're using rule variants anyway, and it isn't ever that clear. [/Edit]
I
First, It's caster level 19, the first level of EK is a dead level for spellcasting.
And no, its caster level 20. 19 from class levels, one from Dragonspawn.
Ranger 1/Psychic warrior 4/Nentyar hunter 2/Psychic theurge 3/Illithid slayer 10
BAB: +16
Caster Level: 9 (Manifester level 16 or 20).
Saves: 13/10/11.
Special: Great tracker, very little MAD for a gish (especially a multi-spellcasting class one!), can wear armor (duh). Good feats are Intuitive strike and/or Zen archery, Practiced spellcaster, and Practiced manifester (imaginary).
Requirements: Alertness, Combat casting, Track, skill ranks, BAB.
Books: Expanded Psionics Handbook, Unapproachable East.
Ya, so its psionic. Ya, so it get divine spellcasting. Ya, so its a shameless conversion of the Ran 1/Src 4/NH 2/MT 3/MoY 10 or Ran 1/Wiz 4/NH 2/MT 3/Geo 10. I think its cool.
this would come out caster level 16, BaB15 but i can channel 2 spells, 3 with a spellstoring weapon. If i think loads of enemies are coming i can put 3 castings of horrid wilting in & do 48 D6 to all of them
Going by 3.5 anyway, channeling a spell only affects the monster being hit, whether you use a fireball, cone of cold, horrid wilting, or whatever as the spell(s) channeled. Verbatum from the CW on channel spell: "Even if the spell normally affects an area or is a ray, it affects only the target."
I dunno if I'm in the minority here, but I've always thought channel spell a bit overrated except for assassinations. It's a little less useful too if your DM throws easier stuff at you first, since you don't choose when to discharge the spell; it discharges on the next target hit. Even if you have another weapon to use so you can save your spell channel for later, that's still a disadvantage.
I think it makes perfect sense in all respects. Gold dwarfs and white dragons are likely to share similar habitats. Nothing would make an evil dragon more happy the corrupting one of the good locals into being it's servant.
And once the white dragon is dead, the freed dragonspawn is going to have quite a vendetta to persue!
Not sure how dragonspawn work but a WHITE DRAGON of all creatures, the weakest and dumbest of true dragons (though I dislike how D&D's made it that way) wouldn't have the mental ability to pull that off. Dwarves are real loyal and real stubborn. And lawful. Even though succubi are hardly lawful themselves, it's hard to see a white dragon pull a succubus-role.
And no, its caster level 20. 19 from class levels, one from Dragonspawn.
Ah, I stand corrected. Guess I need to figure out where this guy is and learn, hm?
To Kuroi, I believe the ability to channel twin 7th level spells like delayed blast fireball with no delay time is a powerful feature. That's two 1d6/level (max 15 or 20, I believe) fireballs hitting ONLY that enemy, meaning it's safe to use in combat with allies around you. And that's a lot of bonus damage. Spells like acid fog might be abused, because unless I miss my mark I believe the "fog" stays even though it only affects the target of your strike. Two, or even just one, prismatic spray can seriously hurt, and any player with the channel spell ability is going to know that his next strike is gonna set off the spell, so he'll likely have contingency weapons available. Or he'll use a backup weapon to channel the spell and the primary weapon to go about attacking normally while saving his other weapon for the opportune moment.
The problem with using a secondary melee weapon just for spell channels or vice versa is that you have to sheathe/drop one weapon and draw the other for one round of attacks. To me it is still at best a potential hinderance, and is too situational for reaching its maximum effectiveness.
I don't see much point in the hassle, situational use, and loss of 1 to 4 caster levels if you have Arcane Strike. Yes, AS uses one of your feats. Yes, it has lower amounts of damage dice per hit. However, these damage dice are unaffected by any defenses an enemy might have except for high AC, which I'll address below.
If you used a delayed blast fireball spell channel instead of using a 7th lv slot for AS, you're going to miss more iterative attacks, which means less damage. If the enemy saves, those d6s effectively become d3s. Damage can be negated entirely if the enemy has evasion (improved evasion makes it worse). If it has SR and you don't beat it, negated. Then there's elemental resistance. There are a lot of ways where channel spell can go wrong, so don't go overrating it based off of best case scenario examples.
If you want to look at raw damage calculation, use this very handy Damage Calculator . Have each side use the exact same weapons and have the exact same stats. Label the other 'CS' and compensate by adding 70 damage on the graph manually after calculating (can't think of a way to just add a flat damage amount otherwise on that tool). Note that by having the 70 damage consistent, it's assumed that the best case scenario in terms of the enemy taking the average damage from a lv20 DB fireball and and not saving, SRing, etc. I am being *very* generous with CS here. If you want to be more realistic, adjust CL appropriately, try out no bonus damage for SR landing, or half the average damage for a save (or just as an average factoring in saves and SR). Label one side 'AS' and give an additional +7 to hit and +7d4 damage on the weapon compared to the 'CS' side. Adjust any other stats for both sides equally otherwise for the most representative results.
You'll find that as the weapon enchantment goes up (via haste, additional damage, and/or enhancement bonus), strength goes up, use of two handed weapons, and BAB goes up, AS gets better and better over using CS. You'll also find that the higher AC goes, the more CS catches up. It usually surpasses AS around 35-40+ AC, assuming a non saved, non SR'd lv20 delayed blast fireball. However AS comes back since at very high ACs, since the CS won’t hit (shown by a flat line of 0 damage).
In the right AC range, in the right situation, against an enemy that won't save and won't beat your spells with SR, CS is better than AS. Also as said before, if you need to assassinate something in one round, CS is absolutely excellent, especially combined with AS.
As a side note, delayed blast fireball doesn't have to be delayed. It's optional whether you want to detonate it instantly like a normal fireball or use the bead as a grenade or set a trap with it or whatever.
My point here in Arcane Strike vs Channel Spell
Why choose when you can have both?
A gish can have both abilities and both be quite powerful. Take, for example, a maximized fireball channeled into a weapon via Channel Spell. Arcane Strike for a 6th level spell is used. That's +6 to attack and +6d4 + 60 fire bonus damage. Sure that +6 to attack and +6d4 (average 15) damage is more versatile, but it's that +60 fire damage that's gonna leave a mark, even if it's discharged automatically against the first creature it's used against. Both, in the end, are equally useful, just in different ways.
Between channel spell, arcane strike, and true strike/power attack among others a decently built gish can keep up a raging barbarain in damage output.
Or you can be a rage mage/spellsword combo and bring out spell-rage, rage, and those other named abilities to produce a quite fearsome gish character... :D
War Slayer
Ranger1/Hexblade3/Psychic Warrior2/Warmind5/Exotic Weapon Master3/Warmind6-8/Slayer3
BAB: +19
Manifester Level: 10/2 (Warmind/Psychic Warrior)
Saves: +16/11/9
Special: Track, Wild Empathy, Two Favored Enemies, Hexblade's Curse, Arcane Resistance, Mettle, Chain of Personal Superiority +4, Chain of Defensive Posture +4, DR 2/-, Sweeping Strike, Brain Nausea, Lucid Buffer, 3 Ewm Tricks, 2 Bonus Feats
Requirements: Knowledge(history) 2, Knowledge(dungeoneering) 4, Knowledge(psionics) 8, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus
Books: SRD 3.5 (XPH)
You need a 12 Int with a human to pull this off. Both Psw levels' skill points go into knowledge(psionics).
Your weapon should be either a spiked chain or a bastard sword.
Pick flurry of strikes, exotic reach and trip attack as your Ewm tricks if you picked the spiked chain, or uncanny blow, trip attack and any other trick if you picked the bastard sword. You could swap out a level or two of Ewm for Ftr, to get more bonus feats.
Slayer levels' caster level increase goes into Wmd.
Use expansion to get one or two size categories larger. Other nice powers include psionic lion's charge and hostile empathic transfer.
It is a little stat intense, but doable with a pb 32: Str 16 Dex 10 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 8.
Not sure how dragonspawn work but a WHITE DRAGON of all creatures, the weakest and dumbest of true dragons (though I dislike how D&D's made it that way) wouldn't have the mental ability to pull that off. Dwarves are real loyal and real stubborn. And lawful. Even though succubi are hardly lawful themselves, it's hard to see a white dragon pull a succubus-role.
An average great wyrm white dragon is still signifigantly smarter then the average human. And we're not talking abot average dragons, we're talking about Dragon Lords.
Approach a Dragon Lord with that attitude (even a white dragon lord), and you don't even stand a chance.
Quick question for all you gishamanics, does reduced ASF from 2 different sources stack? Say for example I had 2 levels of rage mage and a level of spellsword (assuming I qualified for both).
Why guvn'ah, I believe it do.
Quick question for all you gishamanics, does reduced ASF from 2 different sources stack? Say for example I had 2 levels of rage mage and a level of spellsword (assuming I qualified for both).
As far as I know, it would. The problem with this though would be things like a rage mage and a spellsword's abilities combined in one character. Bladesinger allows a character to use light armor for free without ASF, but light armor has varying arcane spell failure. Does that mean levels of bladesinger and one level of spellsword cover 15% - 30% of Arcane Spell Failure? Using that logic I wouldn't allow them to stack, though there are no written rules anywhere about this so I couldn't do more then say it's something to ask your DM to houserule in (or out). Rage mage and spellsword would though, as both use explicit numerical valures, though a rage mage's Overcome Spell Failure (-10%) applies ONLY to light armors and medium armors.
Ah, and expect new updates soon as I've now my own copy of BoED. Should be fun.
Ah, and expect new updates soon as I've now my own copy of BoED. Should be fun.
Expect updates when you get... ... BoED?
How about when Complete Arcane is released? There should be a bit more interesting stuff in there... IMHO.
- Dain
Expect updates when you get... ... BoED?
How about when Complete Arcane is released? There should be a bit more interesting stuff in there... IMHO.
- Dain
Bleh...good point, nothing interesting to be found in BoED (gish-oriented) except confirmation that the Champion of Gwynharfwyf is slightly overpowered and the first level of Vassal of Bahumut is indeed gish-worthy. -sigh- Can't wait for Complete Arcane. lol
Why choose when you can have both?
Because both may not always be optimal for your character or campaign. Channel spell and multiple channel spell cost caster levels, and you also forsake other PrC levels/abilities by taking more spellsword levels.
I compare one with the other since this is a min/max board. So I felt like making my point as to how it's not too efficient when compared to an ability that is less costly to obtain level/CL wise, more versatile, and better at average damage per-spellslot in most cases. Use the damage calculator. The information is there for you to see for yourself.
If you don't have any problem with running out of spellslots, then it's not at all an issue. You can blow spellslots at your whim to get maximum melee damage output per round, no matter the situation.
If your CL, casting class, and/or campaign style for encounters and resting call for otherwise, then I just say, go with AS and only take spellsword as much as you want ASF ignore, since there are other PrCs to take levels in that have good abilities. You'll probably get more bang for your buck, spellslot wise and level wise.
Sure that +6 to attack and +6d4 (average 15) damage is more versatile, but it's that +60 fire damage that's gonna leave a mark.
Shrug, 15 per hit plus powerattacking on the first attack if you wanted, plus weapon damage and bonus damage from attacks hitting that would have otherwise missed by 6, then saves, SR, blah blah. Please consider all the factors, not just the up front damage from the first hit with a completely successful channeled spell.
Because both may not always be optimal for your character or campaign. Channel spell and multiple channel spell cost caster levels, and you also forsake other PrC levels/abilities by taking more spellsword levels.
I compare one with the other since this is a min/max board. So I felt like making my point as to how it's not too efficient when compared to an ability that is less costly to obtain level/CL wise, more versatile, and better at average damage per-spellslot in most cases. Use the damage calculator. The information is there for you to see for yourself.
If you don't have any problem with running out of spellslots, then it's not at all an issue. You can blow spellslots at your whim to get maximum melee damage output per round, no matter the situation.
If your CL, casting class, and/or campaign style for encounters and resting call for otherwise, then I just say, go with AS and only take spellsword as much as you want ASF ignore, since there are other PrCs to take levels in that have good abilities. You'll probably get more bang for your buck, spellslot wise and level wise.
While that's true, it's very much (as you said) campaign dependant. I believe the point though was that while comparing the two abilities is fine (though there are so many other variables that are left out) in many cases it's quite possible, and efficient, to employ both abilities. While this is a min/max board, I just want to remind everyone to at least keep this number-proven, so to speak.
Shrug, 15 per hit plus powerattacking on the first attack if you wanted, plus weapon damage and bonus damage from attacks hitting that would have otherwise missed by 6, then saves, SR, blah blah. Please consider all the factors, not just the up front damage from the first hit with a completely successful channeled spell.
Well, here's the time then. Since it seems to be something that is in fact an interesting topic, we'll compare the two abilities in depth and see what has a greater net worth. This way gish players who read the thread can learn a little more about their uses and I can probably make a nice compare/contrast article for the sake of continuing this thread's usefulness.
My Points
- Arcane strike can be taken as early as 7th level (ftr2/wiz4/bs1), while channel spell can be taken at its earliest 10th level (ftr2/wiz4/ss4). Point for Arcane Strike.
----- - Arcane strike is extremely easy to acquire for gish and costs little to nothing in the way of caster levels or base attack, while channel spell "costs" full armor/weapon proficiency and 2 levels of spellcasting (spellsword levels 2 & 4). Another point for Arcane Strike.
----- - Both of the following example characters are BAB +16 and CL 18
In one round of full attacks with a 7th level spell slot, arcane strike adds +7 to each strike (assume three hits) and +7d4 (average 17.5) damage per hit. 3 x 17.5 = 52.5 plus normal attack damage x3. Assume a Str 17 and a +3 longsword. One full attack would equal (1d8+6+7d4) x 3 = average 28 per hit x3, which equals 84 damage with three successful strikes from a character channeling a 7th level spell and with a +3 longsword and 17 Strength. Obviously, multiple late-level boost can dramatically increase this. Strong argument for Arcane Strike.
On the other side of the fence, look at a character with channel spell. Has the same longsword and the same Str (1d8+6). He channels a chain lightning into his weapon. Assuming three successful hits you'd have (1d8+6)x3 = 31 on average. Now add 18d6 (average 63). That's an average of 93 damage, 73.5 or so of it from one strike. Damage out put for a single strike and total round damage with three successful strikes leans heavily in favor of Channel Spell.
Using those points alone they seem about equal. The only thing that could really affect them would be rolling a natural 1 on attack, but even that can be rerolled with any number of luck items. Not even spel resistance can be truly included, as it can be easily said Arcane Strike must first beat spell resistance the same as any other spell (another case of RAI vs RAW). Feats like Power Attack among others can be used by either, so including them into the variables is a moot point.
My Points
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[*]Arcane strike can be taken as early as 7th level (ftr2/wiz4/bs1), while channel spell can be taken at its earliest 10th level (ftr2/wiz4/ss4). Point for Arcane Strike.
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Actually you'll have to wait until level 9 to take arcane strike since you don't get a feat normally until level 9, but still earlier than channel spell.
[*]Both of the following example characters are BAB +16 and CL 18
In one round of full attacks with a 7th level spell slot, arcane strike adds +7 to each strike (assume three hits) and +7d4 (average 17.5) damage per hit. 3 x 17.5 = 52.5 plus normal attack damage x3. Assume a Str 17 and a +3 longsword. One full attack would equal (1d8+6+7d4) x 3 = average 28 per hit x3, which equals 84 damage with three successful strikes from a character channeling a 7th level spell and with a +3 longsword and 17 Strength. Obviously, multiple late-level boost can dramatically increase this. Strong argument for Arcane Strike.
On the other side of the fence, look at a character with channel spell. Has the same longsword and the same Str (1d8+6). He channels a chain lightning into his weapon. Assuming three successful hits you'd have (1d8+6)x3 = 31 on average. Now add 18d6 (average 63). That's an average of 93 damage, 73.5 or so of it from one strike. Damage out put for a single strike and total round damage with three successful strikes leans heavily in favor of Channel Spell.
[/list]
Minor corrections, you overbalanced on the AS by using a 7th instead of a 6th spell. So, 15 avg bonus damage a hit, so rounding down, 25 avg damage a hit. That said, the calc would come to 31 + 45 = 76 . You also completely threw out the to hit advantage from using AS, overbalancing it towards CS. You also slightly overbalanced it by having a more spellcaster oriented gish rather than a balanced 17BAB/17 CL one. Doesn't matter much anyway. On the two corrections for spellslot used and dropping the hefty to hit modifier:
If the rolls used by both the ASer and the CSer were good enough to hit three times but miss on the fourth hit, then everything equal that means that the 4th attack would hit for the ASer while it would miss for the CSer, since it's more than +4 to hit. In such case, 76 + 25 = 101. That's not factoring powerattacking on the first three hits, which, all else equal, would still hit if you blew the +6 to hit on the first three attacks.
Either way, more average damage than CSing, using a very conservative weapon type and enchantment and strength score for lv20. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
Not even spel resistance can be truly included, as it can be easily said Arcane Strike must first beat spell resistance the same as any other spell (another case of RAI vs RAW). Feats like Power Attack among others can be used by either, so including them into the variables is a moot point.
Er, well it doesn't say in the feat anything about SR or saves, since it's not a spell. The bonus damage is unnamed as well, rather than being named magical or energy damage or whatever. SR doesn't work against the unamed +3 damage on a +3 sword, either. Channel spell explicitly states that saves/SR still apply, and no such note is made on AS. So, I don't really see how you might come to the conclusion that AS is affected by such magical defenses.
On a similar note, I don't think a channeled spell would benefit from a critical hit since in Tome and Blood, it's stated on pg 40 that landing a touch spell with an unarmed strike only means crit damage for the unarmed strike, not the touch spell. You can only crit on a touch spell when using a touch attack. So, I guess if you wanted even more accuracy damage wise, you could factor in critical hits into average damage like the NWN damage calc does. Then there's getting more crits period since your critical threats will more likely be successful from the hit bonus. Once again, correct me if I'm wrong.
As for power attack, since CS doesn't grant any to hit bonus, one using a spellslot on CS won't have as much to gain from powerattacking as an ASer does. If they both power attack for 6 on each attack, the CSer will miss on the third, possibly second attack, while the ASer will only lose the 4th attack, since his attack bonus will equal the CSer's when the CSer is not power attacking. Moot point? I dunno about that.
Minor corrections, you overbalanced on the AS by using a 7th instead of a 6th spell. So, 15 avg bonus damage a hit, so rounding down, 25 avg damage a hit. That said, the calc would come to 31 + 45 = 76 . You also completely threw out the to hit advantage from using AS, overbalancing it towards CS. You also slightly overbalanced it by having a more spellcaster oriented gish rather than a balanced 17BAB/17 CL one. Doesn't matter much anyway. On the two corrections for spellslot used and dropping the hefty to hit modifier:
If the rolls used by both the ASer and the CSer were good enough to hit three times but miss on the fourth hit, then everything equal that means that the 4th attack would hit for the ASer while it would miss for the CSer, since it's more than +4 to hit. In such case, 76 + 25 = 101. That's not factoring powerattacking on the first three hits, which, all else equal, would still hit if you blew the +6 to hit on the first three attacks.
Either way, more average damage than CSing, using a very conservative weapon type and enchantment and strength score for lv20. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
[snip]
Er, well it doesn't say in the feat anything about SR or saves, since it's not a spell. The bonus damage is unnamed as well, rather than being named magical or energy damage or whatever. SR doesn't work against the unamed +3 damage on a +3 sword, either. Channel spell explicitly states that saves/SR still apply, and no such note is made on AS. So, I don't really see how you might come to the conclusion that AS is affected by such magical defenses.
On a similar note, I don't think a channeled spell would benefit from a critical hit since in Tome and Blood, it's stated on pg 40 that landing a touch spell with an unarmed strike only means crit damage for the unarmed strike, not the touch spell. You can only crit on a touch spell when using a touch attack. So, I guess if you wanted even more accuracy damage wise, you could factor in critical hits into average damage like the NWN damage calc does. In such a case, it'd benefit AS more since it's probably figured into critical hits just like Xing (burst) weapons are. The additional damage is tacked onto the weapon damage in the same way as far as I can tell. Then there's getting more crits period since your critical threats will more likely be successful from the hit bonus. Once again, correct me if I'm wrong.
As for power attack, since CS doesn't grant any to hit bonus, one using a spellslot on CS won't have as much to gain from powerattacking as an ASer does. If they both power attack for 6 on each attack, the CSer will miss on the third, possibly second attack, while the ASer will only lose the 4th attack, since his attack bonus will equal the CSer's when the CSer is not power attacking. Moot point? I dunno about that.
Something that has been brought to my attention by another player is that it is difficult to consider comparing a singular feat to a class ability. By 4th level of spellsword you acquire this much-discussed ability, Channel Spell, as well as the ability to ignore 15% arcane spell failure, full armor/weapon proficiencies (assuming ya didn't have them already), a bonus feat, two good saves, full bonuses to BAB, and +2 spellcasting levels. Arcane Strike gives you the +1 to hit and +1d4 to damage per spell level channeled into it. Don't get me wrong, you've proved AS to be tough, but what else do you get? You can't make a single feat the backbone of a gish build, though you can make 4-5 (or more) levels of a prestige class something of a solid backbone.
I suppose the major argument will come down to two characters, both optimized, one a Fighter2/Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight2 with Arcane Strike and the other a Fighter2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword4 without Arcane Strike and seeing their damage outputs (not in a duel, mind you). Problem with that solution is some argument would arise with "why choose this spell over this, why have that feat over that, what race should it be" and all of those would take away from determining which is more "optimal" for a gish to have, the Spellsword's Channel Spell or the feat Arcane Strike.
bab 7 CL 7 (10 with practices spellcaster)
paladin 2/ Sorcerer4/ Spellsword4
bab 8 CL 6 (10 with practiced spellcaster)
at first glance if both can use arcane strike then the second build will
do more damage....
IF the second build cant use arcane strike then....
1) +7/+2 with arcane strike +14 / +9 and +7d4dmg on each hit
vs
2) +8/+3 and plus of damage of the best spell he can channel into his weapon
assuming that only the +14 +9 and +8 hit
(weapon damage + 7d4) x 2 = weapon damage x 2 +14d4
14d4 max 56
vs
weapon damage + spell damage (fireball 10d6)
10d6 max 60
so they could end up pretty even at this level but remember that theres nothing stoping the second build from getting arcane strike.
SoulLord
One more thing in favor of AS is that you have to spend an action casting the spell into the weapon with channel spell, something you might not want to or be able to do in the middle of a fight.
I'm not trying to dis channel spell. It's a nice ability if you need that one big hit. But AS is easier to get, can be used much more (you could use it on every attack on some days), and I think more useful overall to a gish.
I don't think you can argue ability vs feat, but in arguing usefulness for something as being optimized remember that channel spell and arcane strike work best -together- rather then apart and compared seperately.
...it is difficult to consider comparing a singular feat to a class ability. By 4th level of spellsword you acquire this much-discussed ability, Channel Spell, as well as the ability to ignore 15% arcane spell failure, full armor/weapon proficiencies (assuming ya didn't have them already), a bonus feat, two good saves, full bonuses to BAB, and +2 spellcasting levels. Arcane Strike gives you the +1 to hit and +1d4 to damage per spell level channeled into it. Don't get me wrong, you've proved AS to be tough, but what else do you get? You can't make a single feat the backbone of a gish build, though you can make 4-5 (or more) levels of a prestige class something of a solid backbone.
I don't understand why you're trying to say that I'm saying one feat makes the backbone of a character or anything similar. I never said spellsword was a bad class or that you don't need the class period if you use AS. In fact I completely agree with you, those (first 3) levels of spellsword are totally awesome, and pretty much the backbone of most gish builds.
I said CS was overrated and a situational ability. People disagreed, so I compared it to a simple feat to prove my point. Here's a refresher.
"I dunno if I'm in the minority here, but I've always thought channel spell a bit overrated except for assassinations."
"Channel spell and multiple channel spell cost [1 and 4] caster levels [respectively], and you also forsake other PrC levels/abilities by taking more spellsword levels [than 3]."
"I compare one with the other since this is a min/max board. So I felt like making my point as to how it's not too efficient when compared to an ability that is less costly to obtain level/CL wise, more versatile, and better at average damage per-spellslot in most cases"
"If your CL, casting class, and/or campaign style for encounters and resting call for [conserving/using your spellslots to their fullest], then I just say, go with AS and only take spellsword as much as you want ASF ignore, since there are other PrCs to take levels in that have good abilities. You'll probably get more bang for your buck, spellslot wise and level wise."
Other than that I wanted to bring more information to the table and point out complications in using it that people on this thread pretty obviously hadn't been considering before.
As I mentioned earlier, channel spell can be really great for an assassin type (or a charger, thinking about it more). Also I had mentioned before others did in the arguement, that AS and CS comboed are superb. That is, for taking out something immediately. In one round you'll do insane damage, though you'll do more total damage if you had not CS'd and had instead used the slot on AS the next round or any following rounds. Same goes for multiple channel spell, except you fall behind in damage at round 3 instead of round 2.
And, as I said before, if spellslot management isn't an issue, then efficiency between AS and CS isn't really an issue. However, the information provided will help those that use both constantly to know how to prioritize their higher and lower spellslots for maximum damage. In other words, if you only had one 6th level slot left, and multiple 5th level slots left, it should be obvious now which slot will go where to squeeze out the most damage possible.
Most of the time you wont start next to your enemy so you'll only be able to charge getting a single attack unless you get pounce somehow.
assuming a
fighter 2 / wizard 4 / spellsword 10/ eldritch knight 4
bab 18
CL 12(16)
with
practiced spellcaster
arcane strike
empower spell
quiken spell
power attack
you could have a couple of empowered scorching ray spells on the sword
for 36D6 damage
add to that a quikened scorching ray and you get another 12d6 damage
for a grand total of 48d6 damage
plus the damage of your weapon lets say a great sword for 2d6
and if using arcane strike you could add up to 18d4 damage to that
for 50d6 +18d4 damage
taking into account a charge and the bonus to hit from arcane strike
you could safely transfer all your bab to damage and still have a good chance to hit
so 50d6 +18d4 + 36 id'say its a decent amount of damage for a gish
if you ask me
SoulLord
Feeblemind
Enervation (or Energy Drain for those high caster lvl gish)
Confusion (or other Insanity type effects)
Feeblemind
Hold Monster
Finger of Death
Disentigrate (sunder with THIS)
And tell me that other uses don't leap to mind. Imagine a charging gish riding into a caster BBEG's bodyguards, chucking throwing axes that Hold Monster each one, then riding into the vulnerable caster while the rest of the party deals with downed foes. Finger of death through a dagger - who needs poison? Double channel Curse and Feeblemind. There's more here than damage. You can use spells in your attack, without taking precious combat time to cast, to flatten the big high-HP threats that would normally pwn gish with their less-than-barb HP and BAB. That opens flexibilty.
Channel Spell and Arcane Strike are two different things. The first allows you access to offensive spellcasting in a much more combat-friendly manner, and the second greatly boosts your damage potential in combat. They both rock, and they rock more together.
And tell me that other uses don't leap to mind. Imagine a charging gish riding into a caster BBEG's bodyguards, chucking throwing axes that Hold Monster each one, then riding into the vulnerable caster while the rest of the party deals with downed foes. Finger of death through a dagger - who needs poison? Double channel Curse and Feeblemind. There's more here than damage. You can use spells in your attack, without taking precious combat time to cast, to flatten the big high-HP threats that would normally pwn gish with their less-than-barb HP and BAB. That opens flexibilty.
Wonderful point on CS use, which fits the assassin role perfectly. There are a few misconceptions, though. One is that you can only charge up one weapon at a time with CS, no matter how many uses per day you have remaining. The other is that it's specifically worded that you channel into a melee weapon. Interpret as you will on that one, though I think it means no ranged/thrown weapons, otherwise it would have left out the word melee. Who knows though.
or for example a dagger which can also be used as a thrown weapon
SoulLord
Thanks to all people and especially shadow mage for all the info.
I´m interested in doing a Gish for my next adventure, and came up with this:
01º Fighter 1
02º Wizard 1
03º Wizard 2
04º Wizard 3
05º Wizard 4
06º Rune Smith 1
07º Rune Smith 2
08º Spell Sword 1
09º Eldritchknight 1
10º Eldritchknight 2
11º Eldritchknight 3
12º Eldritchknight 4
13º Eldritchknight 5
14º Eldritchknight 6
15º Eldritchknight 7
16º Eldritchknight 8
17º Eldritchknight 9
18º Eldritchknight 10
19º ArchMage 1
20º ArchMage 2
Feats:
01º Improved Toughness, Lightning Reflexes
03º Power Attack
06º Extend Spell
09º Cleave?, Empower Spell
12º Arcane Strike
15º Practised Spellcaster
18º Skill Focus (SpellCraft)
Well with this build you could wear any armor, cast spells with your hands occupied.
Dwarve race: +2 CON and +2 to all saves
CL 18 BAB +16 FOR: 15 REF: 5 WIL: 15 (NOT included the dwarven +2 to saves)
From what I´ve seen, I´ve just built a more spell oriented gish. What I´m kind of missing is the strategie for playing. Yeah ok, it´s great to throw spell´s on a full plate, and have good saves, but besides that, I´m a normal spellcaster and probably it doesn´t make much sense going into the middle of the battle to melee, even with arcane strike, you simply don´t have the HP´s a Figher has.
What I was thinking was investing in touch attacks, and go to the field of battle.
But let´s assume the base AC: +1 DEX +8 Full plate +4 Mage armor +4 Shield
That totals 27AC, not that great
Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance!
From what I´ve seen, I´ve just built a more spell oriented gish. What I´m kind of missing is the strategie for playing. Yeah ok, it´s great to throw spell´s on a full plate, and have good saves, but besides that, I´m a normal spellcaster and probably it doesn´t make much sense going into the middle of the battle to melee, even with arcane strike, you simply don´t have the HP´s a Figher has.
What I was thinking was investing in touch attacks, and go to the field of battle.
But let´s assume the base AC: +1 DEX +8 Full plate +4 Mage armor +4 Shield
That totals 27AC, not that great
Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance!
I remember on JK's thread some 'ray fighter' type. Might want to check that out for ideas on spell/feat selection. If you don't want to melee, I guess the only other option would be archery for physical damage. Lots of ideas for classes/feat selection for that on this thead and others.
Also, the bonus from mage armor and full plate don't stack since they're both 'armor' bonuses. Only stacking exceptions for the same bonus type are wearing a shield and dodge/circumstance/unnamed bonuses. I think so, anyway. Could be wrong.
Still, defense shouldn't be a big worry if you use mirror image, displacement/blur, stoneskin, fireshield, or something else on round one. AC isn't the only (and not always the best) form of defense. Invest in a quicken spell rod and quickdraw and you can have two good forms of different types of protection on you in a round. Stoneskin + fireshield synergize for more damage output against attackers or displacement + mirror image synergize for more damage avoidance. With a non-tank gish you probably want damage avoidance. Just ideas, though. Take it as you will.
The thing is that I wanted to go to melee to take full advantage for being in a full plate, and also with a full plate I would only have +1 DEX, not good for archery.
Even so, you gave me good options... probably with mirror image and stoneskin I could adventure myself into melee and use the touch attack´s.
If you're worried about ranged attacks, rays, and ranged touch attack just cast cat's grace (extended if possible) on yourself. It won't help your AC but it will help with your reflex save and give you a +2 bonus on your ranged attacks, rays, and ranged touch attacks.
But full plate limits my DEX to +1... Can´t much do about it
That mithrill is a good idea... But my idea was melee and touch attacks.
1) Is a Fighter/Mage doable with only 1 prestige class per character? Which Prestige Class is best for which builds? For example, Ek being "filler", is it comparable with Spellsword, assuming both are the only ones taken?
2) Which levels are critical for Gish, as in, which levels are toughest on them? Presumably, the first few levels are identical with Fighter or whatever warrior class, but the latter Arcane levels tend to eat into the HPs very alarmingly. Is 6th level Paladin2/Sorcerer4 competitive with a Bard 6 or a Hexblade 6? If the campaign is to last from levels 6-12, which build is best?
I noticed that most Gish builds use more than one prestige class and presume that each one will be available as soon as the mechanical prerequisites demand optimum entry.
1) Is a Fighter/Mage doable with only 1 prestige class per character? Which Prestige Class is best for which builds? For example, Ek being "filler", is it comparable with Spellsword, assuming both are the only ones taken?
The problem with this would be optimal entry. Chances are you won't have 10 character levels and then prestige class for another 10 levels, as this doesn't produce a very effective character. Mage5/Warrior5/Spellsword10 for example produces +17 BAB and CL 10. Mage5/Warrior5/EK10 makes for +17 BAB and CL 14, which is acceptable, but still not great. Best case scenario I can think of would be Mage4/Warrior6/EK10 (BAB +18, CL 13). I suppose it is possible to make a class build using only one prestige class, but that's not exactly recommended. The Bard doesn't need even a single prestige class, nor does the hexblade, but those are the only two classes I can think of where 1 or 0 prestige classes can come into use. Remember that a large part of choosing prestige classes is, while keeping it optimal, providing the ability to advance in Epic levels (and I'm in the process of devicing a few epic-gish type prestige classes).
2) Which levels are critical for Gish, as in, which levels are toughest on them? Presumably, the first few levels are identical with Fighter or whatever warrior class, but the latter Arcane levels tend to eat into the HPs very alarmingly. Is 6th level Paladin2/Sorcerer4 competitive with a Bard 6 or a Hexblade 6? If the campaign is to last from levels 6-12, which build is best?
Since most campaigns end at about level 14, that's a perfectly valid question. But now you have to remember a few points.
First, what is the goal of your gish? Archer? Heavy melee support? Caster-focused? Mounted? You can't necessarily make a build that would be great at levels 16+ because most campaigns don't last that long. This is the most critical, since it determines everything else (level, feats, how much hp you really need, etc.). So first, decide your role.
Next, with your role decided, what are your basic attributes and race? Will a dextrous elf fit your role nicely or a heavyweight dwarf? This will determine what buff spells and feats you'll be choosing, as well as where level-gained attribute points and where most of your resources will go.
That's said, let's make a level nine gish character and see how effective he'll be.
Cavalier
Fighter2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Eldritch Knight2
Race: Human
BAB +7/+2
CL 6
Spells 0--detect magic, detect poison, light, mending, message, read magic, resistance; 1--magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, shield, true strike; 2--invisibility, scorching ray; 3--slow
Familiar: Heavy Warhorse (substituted from krenshar on Improved Familiar list)
Progression:
The problem I'm having is that I'm DMing D&D games and I do not like allowing multiple Prestige Classes for characters. So the problem I'm having is the problem you say: no multiple dipping isn't really recommended. I suppose that this indicates that I need to tweak Prsetige Classes in general for Gish, but for the record I'd like to make an honest effort by asking you great people here to supplement my efforts to make a half-decent Gish.
So Bards and Hexblades are the only acceptable Gish going into single Prestige Classes? That seems to square with what I estimate.
First, what is the goal of your gish? Archer? Heavy melee support? Caster-focused? Mounted? You can't necessarily make a build that would be great at levels 16+ because most campaigns don't last that long. This is the most critical, since it determines everything else (level, feats, how much hp you really need, etc.). So first, decide your role.
I was sort of casting it as a general direction in which your project could develop. I find builds that assess 20th level power to be mostly pointless. Very few people even play at that level, let alone start there. A build that uses peaks at 12th, 14th, 16th or even 10th would probably be best.
So this means that I'm really interested in how the rules pan out for all the builds and roles. Races, too.
I'd like to see a 9th level melee build with emphasis on blasting and generic magic use. In particular, I was wondering how such a gith would stack up against a Bard 9.
Ftr4/Wiz2/Bld10/X4 or Hex4/Ftr2/Swa3/Bld10/X1 are nice for Bladesingers,
Rng1/Hex3/Psw2/Wmd10/Ftr4 sounds good for a 1-PrC Warmind build.
Anyway, yes I second the belief, strongly, of a character build being effective for all 20 levels, not just at the last levels. That's the reason JK (and myself) have always advocated speed over in-the-end greatness.
Ah, and by my comments on the bard and hexblade, that was regarding those two as being classes that do not need to multiclass. They can single class a full twenty level build and be some of the best gish at their chosen roles. I mean, a Bard20 has so much buff-power to go around he'll even outdo (FAR outdo) a cleric of equal level. A hexblade with an Improve Familiar familiar can also be quite dangerous. No, what I meant was it is not optimal at all for a single prestige class to be chosen if and only if (horrible schooling memories) the build will be carried into late to epic levels. There is nothing that says a Fighter2/Wilder4/Psychic Weapon Master4 (notice only one prestige class) can't be an excellent build. Same with a Fighter2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword4, or really any other build. After all, it's at levels 7-10 when gish truly come together, as that is when they are acquiring the first levels of prestige classes. Actually, as far as power all around goes, I think 10th level gish characters with a single prestige class have more power compared to monsters and enemies than any later level gish.
Which levels are critical for Gish, as in, which levels are toughest on them?
I want to refer back to this because this is a very good question that I didn't exactly address earlier. Consider this in two parts. The first part comes with knowing how early prestige classes can become available. Using an elven or half elven hexblade with moderate Intelligence, bladesinger can be obtained on 6th level. For psionics, a psychic warrior or warmind can be achieved upon 6th level, too. For most other classes though (ie spellsword, eldritch knight, rauthmari battle mage, etc.) 7th level is the earliest. This leaves a nice gap of at LEAST 5 levels to consider (at least 1/4 of the total character build).
The second part comes with knowing what to do with those early levels. As one example of a good low-level gish, a Rogue1/Sorcerer1 that takes true strike and ray of enfeeblement can make pretty darned good use of sneak attack and strength damage. The idea of the earliest levels is to survive. Simple as that. Rarely can a player aggressively choose classes, feats, spells, and skills well enough early level, mostly because of the huge variance in hp and saves a low-level gish tends to have level-by-level. Although, there are a few good survival points I suppose it would be kind to make.
- Boost your saves. This means, using any feats you can spare or any spells you may have, keeping your saving throws pretty high. This tends to be most critical at mid levels (8-13) when spells and traps are in transition from minor to major damage dealing. The hardest save to keep high is Reflex, so Lightning Reflexes might be a good investment. Spells as simple as resistance and its greater versions (in some splat book or another) offer straight bonuses to saves.
- Keep your HP high. This is another very difficult task for gishy characters, because mage builds do NOT give good hm. A straight rogue has greater average hp than a ftr2/sor4. Spells that enhance Constitution (hell bear's endurance...) are wonderful to have, as well as any other spell that gains hp (vampiric touch even falls into this category). Improved Toughness, that godsend of a feat, is a wonderful and easily acquirable feat that provies +1 hp/level as bonus hp (permanent like toughness only GOOD).
- Hit hard and uniquely. Straight damage between levels 1-6 is nice to deal, but an orc warrior who has its strongest attribute, Strength, reduced greatly just becomes THAT much easier to kill. Sneak attacks, ability damage, or just guarenteed hits from true strike, as long as damage of any type is being done then you're doing good.
I was thinking and looking at spellsword, and it isn´t that great I think... Sure, Channel Spell is good, but you can just do it 3 times a day, not that much.
Also, if you use channel spell forget the full attack, you could only do one attack.
If we take a look closer, we can take 2 conclusions:
First: If your thinking about doing spells each turn like vampirc touch or something, better have haste, and not care so much about BAB because without it you´re only doing 1 attack each round, and 1 spell each round (Spellsword).
Second: If your just thinking about melee, can´t understand much why to be a Gish and not a fighter with a bard buffing.
From my point of view, investing in Caster levels, and polymorfing is the only way using always haste. In fact, haste is the primary spell, because it connects the two (fighter and spellcaster) by letting you do the two of them in one round.
So what I´m saying is that, if you´re the only caster in the party and want to a Gish, invest in CL´s. If you´re a secondary caster, you could invest in BAB, but still I say, for that invest just in fighter and hire a bard, because all you´ll ever need is buff´s.
Thanks for your reply´s!
I was thinking and looking at spellsword, and it isn´t that great I think... Sure, Channel Spell is good, but you can just do it 3 times a day, not that much.
Also, if you use channel spell forget the full attack, you could only do one attack.
Spellsword is actually ideal for early-mid to late-mid level (ie 7-12) gish. It provides the all-important Ignore ASF, and at second level even gives you a bonus feat. The first three levels of spellsword alone give you +3 BAB, +3 Fortitude and Will and +1 Reflex, +2 caster levels, Ignore 15% ASF (mithral twilight fullplate?), a bonus feat (metamagic or fighter), and 2d8 hp. All at the cost of a single caster level. Mid-levels, there is no better class than three spellsword levels, which compared to three levels of ANY other gish prestige class are superb.
If we take a look closer, we can take 2 conclusions:
First: If your thinking about doing spells each turn like vampirc touch or something, better have haste, and not care so much about BAB because without it you´re only doing 1 attack each round, and 1 spell each round (Spellsword).
Second: If your just thinking about melee, can´t understand much why to be a Gish and not a fighter with a bard buffing.
Mmm, I suppose this is when experience speaks best in using multi-role character builds in combat. I'll start by agreeing with your assessment thus far of haste. A wonderful spell indeed, but in order to make optimal use of it you should have Arcane Strike and a speed weapon. Or at least Two-Weapon Fighting and whatnot, you just want extra attacks. Barbarian gish are an exception as they can dish out MASSIVE amounts of damage per hit, so one extra hit would be wonderfully lethal. However. You're not exactly looking at the most sound strategy. Using one attack and one spell per round is not very optimal unless it's a spell called time stop. Now that's optimal. :D
Regardless, at the beginning of each round (and really each encounter) you need to determine what your role is going to be in the party. For a gish, you cannot think as an individual, since you work BEST with a party. Channel a spell out of combat, it stays there for 8 hours as it is. Then go into combat as someone who casts spells and moves around one round and who unloads with a full attack the next. One-spell, one-attack won't necessarily do much good unless that one hit is awesomely powerful.
About your second point, I'm not even sure that's a point. By that do you mean Fighter4/Bard16 type of thing? Because +16 BAB and CL 16 for bard spells is...eh. At best. Remember, you determine what sort of gish you are primarily by your feats and your spells. If you want to be a straight buff gish, go bard. Straight bard. If you want to buff AND fight, go mage/warrior/prestige class. There is very little that is outright more effective than a warrior who can not only fight (ie 17+ BAB) but who can also cast well enough to buff with higher level spells (ie 14+ CL).
From my point of view, investing in Caster levels, and polymorfing is the only way using always haste. In fact, haste is the primary spell, because it connects the two (fighter and spellcaster) by letting you do the two of them in one round.
Hm... Does a Barbarian4/Sorcerer4/Rage Mage10/Spellsword1/Dragonslayer1 seriously need to be always hasted? Or even polymorphed? No, it doesn't. Neither does a solid Spellsword build. Polymorph is ideal for characters that don't wear armor frequently and don't have great abilities in their natural form. After all, it's hard to get bigger when you're stuck inside an expensive suit of medium-sized full plate. Even then, you're overrating haste. It's a great spell and all but that one dispel magic or worse Mordenkainen's disjuction is going to seriously screw up that your dependancy on haste. It makes you waste an action to cast the spell again. No, a gish is someone who does NOT rely on any spells. A gish who relies on a spell to be effective is not a gish, just a mage with better BAB than normal. What you're suggesting is literally just be a straight caster. Which...is...not...gish.
So what I´m saying is that, if you´re the only caster in the party and want to a Gish, invest in CL´s. If you´re a secondary caster, you could invest in BAB, but still I say, for that invest just in fighter and hire a bard, because all you´ll ever need is buff´s.
A gish should not be the only caster in a party. Ever. If so, my Militia Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight10/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/Archmage2 that lands +15 BAB and 19 CL is the best way to go. Gish by its very definition is a secondary fighter and caster. It doesn't get full spellcasting and it doesn't get full fighting (ie 20th level abilities in either). This whole last statement is botched, because who wants to hire a bard expressely for that purpose? I personally wouldn't want to share experience just because of something like that. No, a character who can both fight, buff, and offensively cast is much better, don't you say? Certainly less expensive. Otherwise that can be interpretted to mean play a party of fighters with a hired troupe of bards.
Look at the reason people even want to play a gish to begin with rather than a fighter with a couple levels of mage or a mage with a couple levels of fighter (in either case with highed bard support). I love the idea that a character can be self-sufficient, but moreso I like the fact that if either the primary fighter(s) or mage(s) fall I can step in and do well at their role until they're back on their feat. Gish are designed to be the perfect support machines. As I've described them, "glue" for the party. When you have two primary fighter types and a primary caster, playing a gish allows you to easily shift back and forth between casting and fighting. As you've seen, a LOT of people enjoy playing multi-role characters (emphasized all the more by the triple-quad. threat thread lying around these boards) and many of them very gish-like in nature. That point made, people enjoy mage/warriors, otherwise they wouldn't exist and we'd only be seeing warriors with hired mages, you know?
Polymorph is ideal for characters that don't wear armor frequently and don't have great abilities in their natural form. After all, it's hard to get bigger when you're stuck inside an expensive suit of medium-sized full plate.
Just a reminder: all equipment, magical or not, will grow as long as the form is humanoid, regardless of size. A wartroll, firbolg, titan, or similar form will be decked out in full gear. A displacer beast form would only have rings/necklaces grow/change to fit (possibly bracers/anklets too).
Check post 174 and the link to the offical wizard's article there if you want the specifics.
The problem I'm having is that I'm DMing D&D games and I do not like allowing multiple Prestige Classes for characters.
I'm of two minds on this.
First I agree in spirit. I really don’t like a lot of the gish builds I’ve seen here with lots of 1 and 2 level dips in various PrCs to get the best special abilities of each while avoiding the seemingly intended penalties. Some of the most broken builds (not nessisarly Gish) I’ve seen seem to depend on multiple PrCs too which again seems to support limiting them somehow. I also really don’t like getting spells via one PrC like Nar-Demonbinder and then advancing that via another PrC like Mystic Knight.
However with all that said, it seems to me that some PrCs are essentially already ‘dip’ like. The 3 level PrCs and to a lesser extent the 5 level PrCs don’t really indicate to me the same sort of commitment that a 10 level PrC might. In a lot of cases I don’t really see a problem with a high level character having a 3 or 5 level PrC and a 10 level one.
I haven’t run a game in forever but my inclination would be to say something like ‘No more than 1 PrC in levels 1-10 and no more than two in levels 11-20.’ I would encourage avoiding multiple 10 level PrCs. I would also encourage players to get most, if not all, levels of what PrCs they do take.
But even with that I don’t think I would make hard and fast rules regarding multiple PrCs with one exception since I feel that having fun is the main point of gaming and that playing the characters that you want to is a big part of that. The one really hard and fast rule I would have would be to rule that PrCs with special spell or manifesting advances like Warmind and Nar Demonbinder could only get advancement from levels in that PrC. PrCs with generic advancement of caster levels could only add to base class caster levels not PrC specific caster levels.
militiawizard6/EK2/dragonslayer1/spellsword5/EK6
BAB 17, CL 17, able to channel up to 9th level spells
It is why I never said Ftr 2/Mage 4/Spellsword 5/Dragonslayer 1/EK 8 (of course the actual feat prerequisites was part of my decision).
Of course, if I were to try to make a Gish now, I would try to swing a Psychic Warrior (the only Gish that should start with a BAB of +0 at level 1).
I need to archive this build:
militiawizard6/EK2/dragonslayer1/spellsword5/EK6
BAB 17, CL 17, able to channel up to 9th level spells
I still say that you can optimize the spellsword 5 lvl´s to just 1 of runesmith.
Ok, you lose 1 BAB, but yet you gain +2 CL´s. Seems better I think....
When I spoke of haste, it was to note that without haste you can only do one of two things: melee attacks or a spell. Haste is the only spell that allows you to do both (not talking about spellsword).
About spellsword it´s good of course having a spell ready to go out when you hit someone, but please... it´s just 3/day, unless you sleep after every encounter, you´ll waste the ability in just one combat.
When I talked about the bard was just to notice that a spellcaster is not just for buffing, because if it was, then bard would do a better job.
For a gish I see it in two ways:
It could be a pure spellcaster, but with an higher AC and if threated by anyone in melee could also do a good job.
Or else, it´s a guy that initially buffs himself and then runs to melee using touch attacks or the sword itself, I like this ideia!
In my point of view you could choose to make a gish simply because you´re tired of seeing the same spellcaster´s build all over the time using Incantrix.
Of course a Gish is normally very versatible, and that´s an advantage, but you must have a straight defined strategie for combat, and in my point of view I would like a guy who buff´s and uses a lot of touch attacks. Of course it´s always good to know that you have higher spell´s and if needed you could use a desintegrate or something like that.
One morething, Dragonslayer is good but 2 feats to just use one level of it?
I still say that you can optimize the spellsword 5 lvl´s to just 1 of runesmith.
Ok, you lose 1 BAB, but yet you gain +2 CL´s. Seems better I think....
One morething, Dragonslayer is good but 2 feats to just use one level of it?
I need dragonslayer to qualify for Spellsword due to the heavy armor requirement.
I wanted 5 levels of spellsword to be able to channel spell in this specific case because I wanted a build that could channel 9th level spells. The reduced ASF is just a bonus (a big one at that). Another thing is that this build isn't race specific like a runesmith build.
Todd, I like your assessment a lot.
It is why I never said Ftr 2/Mage 4/Spellsword 5/Dragonslayer 1/EK 8 (of course the actual feat prerequisites was part of my decision).
Of course, if I were to try to make a Gish now, I would try to swing a Psychic Warrior (the only Gish that should start with a BAB of +0 at level 1).
I have to second that, as I agree strongly with Todd and JK's comment on Psychic Warriors (which up to 20th level can truly be considered gish).
To GrolubFranco, you have to remember something about runesmith. Wizard, as a class, is the least useful in gish builds. It doesn't have the same repeated use and spontaneity that a psion, sorcerer, or wilder does as far as primary casters go. When you use a spell with a wizard, the spell itself is gone, not simply a spell per day. That's the only thing I believe Sorcerers have over Wizards (and spont casting of lower-level spells) but that's another argument altogether. ;)
Situate a polymorphed war troll behind a wall of fire and with a reach weapon and you have a force to be reckoned with, though.
You mentioned my tactic! I'm so proud.
I just realized, one level in Vassal of Bahamut and the ability to enchant armor into twilight armor, and you need NOTHING of Spellsword, Runesmith, Geomancer, whatever. Twilight platinum armor is light, offers a +8 AC bonus, and has no ASF. EDIT: Actually I've been aware of this for a while, but I like cinching debates.
Also realized how useful the feat Practiced Spellcaster is to a hexblade (and for that matter, paladins and rangers). Warforged Hexblade polymorphing into an Iron Golem, sounds good to me.
You mentioned my tactic! I'm so proud.
Well, what can I say, it was a good idea.
I just realized, one level in Vassal of Bahamut and the ability to enchant armor into twilight armor, and you need NOTHING of Spellsword, Runesmith, Geomancer, whatever. Twilight platinum armor is light, offers a +8 AC bonus, and has no ASF. EDIT: Actually I've been aware of this for a while, but I like cinching debates.
Oooo, and cinch the debate you did. I did not even notice that until now. I suppose if you're willing to play a paragon of virtue and obediance than you should be allowed that little armor boost, eh? Let's see...
Champion of Bahamut
Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Dragonslayer1/Eldritch Knight10/Vassal of Bahamut1/Archmage1
BAB: +17/+12/+7/+2
CL: 16
Saves: +17/+6/+13 (with Lightning Reflexes, 'cause god that Ref save sucks)
While this certainly goes against the grain of that multi-prestige class thing, THIS actually fits together perfectly as a PRESTIGE build. Paladin of Bahamut adventures and discovers innate talents as a sorcerer. Being a very holy worshiper of a good dragon, he loves the feel of magic and pursues it. Ends up meeting a nice lil red dragon, slays it with friends, dragons buddies want revenge (and to remove a dangerous threat) and one goes after him while he's alone. Vassal-to-be kills it with magic and martial power and continues to advance his martial and magical abilities until he has reached what he believes a pinnacle of magical might (archmage). Holy crap, a good role-play for a 5 prestige class build.
Also realized how useful the feat Practiced Spellcaster is to a hexblade (and for that matter, paladins and rangers). Warforged Hexblade polymorphing into an Iron Golem, sounds good to me.
Hm...indeed. Sounds pretty fun too. Might draw up a character like this just to see how numbers work, but coming up with a story for it might be harder to swallow...
I could be wrong, but how can you cast spell´s if you have a two handed sword or a sword and a shield? What about somatic components? That´s also a great advantage of runesmith, and hey dwarve is a good race! You all talk about HP´s and don´t care about +2 CON from dwarve? Besides that he also has +2 to all saves... come on...
droping things is a free action so you could drop your sword cast your spell
and then as a move action draw another weapon (or if the dm allows retrieve the one you just dropped)
having quick draw makes this even better as drawing a weapon becomes a free action.
SoulLord
droping things is a free action so you could drop your sword cast your spell
and then as a move action draw another weapon (or if the dm allows retrieve the one you just dropped)
having quick draw makes this even better as drawing a weapon becomes a free action.
SoulLord
Come on... are you having like 10 GreatSword in your pocket so everytime you cast a spell you could draw a new weapon? If you have haste, doing that would prevent you from doing a full attack and cast a spell. Runesmith is great, period!
you cant use a standard action to cast a spell and still do a full attack
Also you can hold (even if not properly use) a two handed weapon in one hand
so you could let go of your two handed grip for a moment to cast a spell
and then grab your weapon with both hands.
at Most i believe it would be the equivalent of using a move action.
SoulLord
I assume we are talking 3.5 here and if so even with haste
you cant use a standard action to cast a spell and still do a full attack
Also you can hold (even if not properly use) a two handed weapon in one hand
so you could let go of your two handed grip for a moment to cast a spell
and then grab your weapon with both hands.
at Most i believe it would be the equivalent of using a move action.
SoulLord
You´re right about haste, but what if I decide to use a Tower Shield in one hand and a weapon in another?
I assume we are talking 3.5 here and if so even with haste
you cant use a standard action to cast a spell and still do a full attack
Also you can hold (even if not properly use) a two handed weapon in one hand
so you could let go of your two handed grip for a moment to cast a spell
and then grab your weapon with both hands.
at Most i believe it would be the equivalent of using a move action.
SoulLord
I think it is a free action to move a hand from a two-handed weapon. It is more a question of are you allowed to make Attacks of Opportunities in such a case. This could be another reason to use a Bastard Sword, Maul, or Waraxe.
I know with a Light Shield you can use your free hand for carrying stuff (and casting spells).
In the case of a Towershield and One-handed Weapon, Eschew Materials might do it.
I know with a Light Shield you can use your free hand for carrying stuff (and casting spells).
Are you certain? While I know Warmages can use light shields--which strongly suggests that the hand can be used to cast spells--I know that they're also considered to be occupying the hand that holds them. However, a buckler doesn't preclude that arm's hand from spellcasting; that much is apparent.
...I can see it now. Mithril bucklers are going to be the new fashion statement for arcanists.
~Belladonna Knight
Are you certain? While I know Warmages can use light shields--which strongly suggests that the hand can be used to cast spells--I know that they're also considered to be occupying the hand that holds them. However, a buckler doesn't preclude that arm's hand from spellcasting; that much is apparent.
...I can see it now. Mithril bucklers are going to be the new fashion statement for arcanists.
~Belladonna Knight
I'm actually surprised they aren't popular anyway. I don't recall any straight caster I've made that hasn't had one, to be honest.
Anyway, If your character is casting a spell, it never specifies (that I've seen) both hands are needed. It's very concievable that a character wielding a two-handed weapon can simply let go with one hand, perform the gestures, and go about his casting business. I could be wrong, but I haven't found anything that's openly disputed this little claim of mine and -have- foudn things to support it.
Anyway, If your character is casting a spell, it never specifies (that I've seen) both hands are needed. It's very concievable that a character wielding a two-handed weapon can simply let go with one hand, perform the gestures, and go about his casting business. I could be wrong, but I haven't found anything that's openly disputed this little claim of mine and -have- foudn things to support it.
The traditional caster uses a quarterstaff, which is a two-handed weapon. So yes, they regularly hold it in one hand while using the other to cast spells. I believe that's exactly the rationale behind a caster using a two-handed weapon, as opposed to two weapons or a one-handed weapon and a shield.
It kind of sucks, though--using two weapons isn't really any better than using a two-handed double weapon, but you can't cast using the former. On the other hand, I now feel the urge to make a caster using the Chrono Cross swallow.
~Belladonna Knight
Solutions
1st.- animate the tower shield thus freeing up your hand
2nd.- still spell
3rd.- (which is the one i think you want to hear) cast spell as a runesmith
4th.- make your sword dance (dancing property)
5th.- drop your sword
SoulLord
Ok regarding the using a tower shield and a one handed weapon and casting.
Solutions
1st.- animate the tower shield thus freeing up your hand
2nd.- still spell
3rd.- (which is the one i think you want to hear) cast spell as a runesmith
4th.- make your sword dance (dancing property)
5th.- drop your sword
SoulLord
6th- Find a way to grow an extra limb, either by polymorph or with a template for example.
6th- Find a way to grow an extra limb, either by polymorph or with a template for example.
7th- Already have an extra limb due to race. ;)
8th- Use a buckler.
7th- Already have an extra limb due to race. ;)
8th- Use a buckler.
9th- Hire a squire or commoner to hold the tower shield for you.
10th- Use an illusion spell to make the enemy think you have a tower shield.
11th- Use reduce and enlarge to make your tower shield size up or down as desired.
Seriously I can see someone making a gish build with extra limbs to hold a tower shield, weapon, and do magic all at once.
9th- Hire a squire or commoner to hold the tower shield for you.
:heehee This so sounds like something I'd see in a Monty Python movie.
10th- Use an illusion spell to make the enemy think you have a tower shield.
11th- Use reduce and enlarge to make your tower shield size up or down as desired.
Seriously I can see someone making a gish build with extra limbs to hold a tower shield, weapon, and do magic all at once.
12th- Play a Xill or Thri-Kreen! I've always wanted to play one, but my only experience with one was a DM telling me to use my custom bladestorm PrC to make a xill wielding four long or bastard swords. Which sucked, 'cause I spent a lot of energy only to have him used against us. Still won, but what a pride shot...
13th- Glove of quick storing (as glove of storing but as free action once per round, haven't readjusted pricing for added haste spell).
This can go on forever, but I'm sure everyone gets the point. I like the illusion idea, I wonder if anyone's ever tried that...
A caster knows the best solution is magic! The spell Girallon's Blessing (lvl 3, Savage Species) gives you enough arms to carry your shield, use two hands on your greatsword, hold 2 rods (metamagic, absorbtion, etc.) and have a free hand for casting.
Lemme know whatcha think!
Or wield a tower shield with your extra limb while your commoner wields an extra tower shield in front of you while you cast an illusion spell for a total of three tower shields. The more the merrier, right? :D
Would all those shields stack, and would all the penalties stack?
I wholly do not agree with the presumption that Prestige Classes are player controlled entities. While the entire point of the game is to have fun and to be able to play the character you like, as a baseline, the Players only have the base classes and multiclassing between those classes to depend on.
Prestige Classes are wholly within the DM's domain, and even those Prestige Classes that are in print and in WotC books (even the Core DMG) are at best skeleton examples from which the DM can create Prestige Classes for use within his particular campaign.
Having said that, I can probably agree that a 3 level Prestige Class mechanically created to patch a rule breakdown is acceptable in a build that also features a 10 level prestige class, but the problem with that is that I do not use 3 level Prestige Classes at all, preferring to fix mechanical problems at the source. If I need for a fighter to be good at exotic weapons because that's his character's schtick, I modify the Fighter class, not present a 3 level Prestige Class for the purpose. Doing short Prestige Class fixes misses the entire point of the class system and Prestige Classes.
I've found it entirely workable to fix small deviations in specific character performances rather than tweak system wide rules as a whole (such as ruling that multiple Prestige Classes are legal), because fixing individual characters allows me to avoid having to fix subsequent problems in the future. I may have to fix a similar problem in another character, but I won't have to make subsequent rule supplements such as "No Prestige Class may advance another Prestige Class's caster level."
Only after fixing many individual characters and divining what I think is the source problem do I deign to change system rules. In the case of Gish Prestige Classes, the problem I find is that 3e spellcaster multiclassing is inherently incompatible with the 3e multiclass system, probably because they developed the spell system before they developed the multiclass system.
Fixing such a fundamental and far-reaching problem is not the scope of this thread. Instead, I'm trying to find out which base skeleton Prestige Classes are suitable for use as is, and still come out with presentable characters that fight better and cast better than Bards over many levels (because Bards are also capable of other activities). This is eminently a practical matter. I don't much care for how a particular build does for levels 16-20 because I don't like to DM or play in campaigns of that level. What I do care for is how a Gish build performs in levels 3-7 (because I DM campaigns in that range), and especially in levels 6-12 (because I play and DM in multiple campaigns of this level).
So far, I've found the Spellsword and the Bladesinger are usable, even though levels 3-5 or 3-6 are problematic for almost all builds. In particular, I like that the Spellword made use of a mechanic I introduced in the Prestige Class board some year/s? ago by placing the +1 caster level on the first level rather than on the second. Are any other Prestige Classes usable?
Well thorian, I have to agree, and I'll be adding a few more spells shortly. I just added Assassin and War Mind to the prestige classes sections. I just see way too much potential with those classes each time I start playing around with them. I'm tempted to add the blackguard, but that's divine casting and and more of a "gish supplement" then a gish PrC.
Lemme know whatcha think!
If you're including Assassin and Warmind, you oughta mention the Fist of Zuoken. Also, you have more than enough information on the Vassal of Bahamut (pg. 9) to add that, especially for a 1-lvl dip.
Fixing such a fundamental and far-reaching problem is not the scope of this thread. Instead, I'm trying to find out which base skeleton Prestige Classes are suitable for use as is, and still come out with presentable characters that fight better and cast better than Bards over many levels (because Bards are also capable of other activities). This is eminently a practical matter. I don't much care for how a particular build does for levels 16-20 because I don't like to DM or play in campaigns of that level. What I do care for is how a Gish build performs in levels 3-7 (because I DM campaigns in that range), and especially in levels 6-12 (because I play and DM in multiple campaigns of this level).
So far, I've found the Spellsword and the Bladesinger are usable, even though levels 3-5 or 3-6 are problematic for almost all builds. In particular, I like that the Spellword made use of a mechanic I introduced in the Prestige Class board some year/s? ago by placing the +1 caster level on the first level rather than on the second. Are any other Prestige Classes usable?
Well, to respond to the final question and keep this thread on topic and hopefully dodge another potential ice berg, the bladesinger is actually not so good at early/mid levels. You don't benefit from a high Intelligence because at those levels you don't generally have that high of an Intelligence. It's abilities are so spaced out that you have to be at least mid-level to get them, and furthermore the better benefits only come at the latest levels when your character has had a chance to develope.
Spellsword, as I've said, is the ideal early/mid level prestige class for most gish. Key word being most. The 3.5 assassin, which I've recently added to my Prestige Classes section, the eldritch knight, the dragonslayer, the very brief jaunt into Vassal of Bahamut, there are many great mid-level prestige classes. You won't find any great early level gish prestige class, as they weren't meant to be taken early. Levels 1-6 are your basic building blocks, the proverbial sandstone blocks waiting to be formed and moved and shaped into some great foundation. Ooo, poetic...lol, wonder if you can tell I'm tired...
Anyway, I've already gone over earlier levels. Hit fast, hit hard, keep your hp up, and just focus on survival. Not buffs (only when you can absolutely afford it), not solo or duo trips, just strictly survival. When you begin prestige classing, things change, but it isn't until about 9th level that the character's gish nature truly begins to show (namely in the form of Arcane Strike and decent feat developement).
At levels 9-13, your "destiny" as a gish is decided. Your spell selection has begun to take a general theme, your feat trees are coming together, and your build itself should start synergizing. Levels 15+ simply show the results of your character, not the building of. "It's the road that matters, not the destination". If you sit there playing from the start an uberpowerful character, then you haven't had time to develope the name on the character sheet as an actual character. Think of it in roleplay terms. Gish are some strong willed people. Willing to focus on both fighting martially and magically, these have to be some pretty amazing people. That's why players enjoy playing them at earlier levels, it gives them a chance to see just what "gish" are from the beginning.
This sounds like an awful lot of preaching, but a lot of people seem to forget that gish, like any other build archtype, are still characters that are being role played. If everything's treated mechanically (organizing what works best between levels a and b, then levels x and y, etc.) takes away from the fact that they're characters. Hell, I gave an example a few posts back on how you can effectively play a character with FIVE prestige classes. That has to count for something.
Roxlimn, there isn't a set early-level standard by which to determing power. That's where the multiclassing is, where things can get a little (or lot) chaotic. You can take a Fighter2/Sorcerer4 character and he can have achieved those levels in any number of combinations (don't feel like doing the probability right now ;) ). So early levels, don't really try to anticipate anything. That's where the classes I've mentioned in the first post of this thread are picked out and taken in whatever level the player wants form them. It's at mid levels (which we'll say is between 7 and 13) that you really watch characters, because that's when their abilities begin to tie together. A 7th level character who is finally a 1st-level Spellsword gains Ignore 10% ASF. A first level Dragonslayer is now immune to fear and begins gaining bonuses against dragons. Eldritch Knight builds actually come together the most visibly, as is represented by the bonus fighter feat, full bab and high fort. save, and +1 caster level for levels 2-10.
I hope my tired ramble hasn't confused you, and if you wish I can supply a few examples. I've already shown a cavalry gish, I can probably show a sniper one and a meleeist as well.
If you're including Assassin and Warmind, you oughta mention the Fist of Zuoken. Also, you have more than enough information on the Vassal of Bahamut (pg. 9) to add that, especially for a 1-lvl dip.
Ah, darnit I forgot that one. Yes, I'll be adding the Fist, and since I have BoED I will be finishing adding the one level of Vassal of Bahamut too. Thanks for reminding me. Tomorrow when I'm awake I'll have them up.
--Impeesa--
Stop me if I'm wrong, but it looks to me like the Vassal's Platinum Armor has a 20% ASF, and Twilight only decreases that by 10%. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that red dragon scales which have been magically transmuted to platinum probably can't also be mythril, so where's that other -10% coming from?
--Impeesa--
Most Vassal builds, being bent on the more martial end, would have at least one level of Spellsword. It's not required mind you but it's something many people would choose.
You all like spellsword for channel spell, but what about Havoc Mage? It´s true you lose 1 BAB and CL, but you gain Battlecast any number of times per day.
Not exclusively for channel spell, it's just a really nice ability if you know how to use it (especially for lightweights using Spring Attack). I couldn't tell you about havoc mage, I have no idea what it is or even where it's from. Prestige class I imagine?
I think level 8 is the best breakpoint to leave the class:
Your rage-like abilities both get the higher bonus, you get sewwping strike, DR 2/- and most of the manifesting power of the class. I wouldn't stay in the class for just for the rather blah ability at lvl 10 and another point of DR. Elocater3, Psychic Weapon Master3 and of course Slayer3 are better choices IMHO.
Just my 0.02 ⁈.
Most Vassal builds, being bent on the more martial end, would have at least one level of Spellsword. It's not required mind you but it's something many people would choose.
I just realized, one level in Vassal of Bahamut and the ability to enchant armor into twilight armor, and you need NOTHING of Spellsword, Runesmith, Geomancer, whatever. Twilight platinum armor is light, offers a +8 AC bonus, and has no ASF. EDIT: Actually I've been aware of this for a while, but I like cinching debates.
Naturally, one level of Spellsword solves that issue nicely, but given the original quote I'm sure you can understand my confusion.
Oh, and to contribute something other than criticism: am I missing something again, or is channel spell + antimagic field really nasty?
--Impeesa--
Not exclusively for channel spell, it's just a really nice ability if you know how to use it (especially for lightweights using Spring Attack). I couldn't tell you about havoc mage, I have no idea what it is or even where it's from. Prestige class I imagine?
It´s from the miniatures HandBook. Yes it´s a prestige class and in has one of the following abilities:
BattleCast: An havoc mage may make a full round action to attack and cast a spell.
It has D8 HD and you understand... I can´t put here the whole class...
take a look at this
Race half-elf
1 swashbuckler 1 weapon finesse , weapon focus rapier
2 swashbuckler 2 grace +1
3 wizard 1 combat casting CL1
4 wizard 2 CL2
5 swashbuckler 3 insightful strike (int bonus to damage)
6 fighter 1 combat expertise , dodge
7 bladesinger 1 bladesong style (int bonus to ac) CL4
8 bladesinger 2 lesser spellsong
9 bladesinger 3 practiced spellcaster CL 5(9)
10 bladesinger 4 Song of celerity 2nd
11 bladesinger 5 CL 6(10)
12 bladesinger 6 Greater spellsong, improved combat expertise
13 bladesinger 7 cl 7(11)
14 bladesinger 8 Song of celerity 4th
15 bladesinger 9 cl 8(12) , empower spell or extend spell
16 bladesinger 10 Song of fury Bab 15
17-20
the int bonus to ac goes up through the whole class
lesser spellsong at 2nd level with enough ranks youll never fail
those concentration rolls again
the song of celerity is the equivalent of a 6th level spell which you dont have
to choose beforehand
and at lvl 6 you have the greater spellsong so no more ASF for light armor
which is the equivalent of a less 20% asf
Sure its more of a fighter than of a caster but if you want you can fill the later levels with caster classes to even it up a little bit
SoulLord
Havoc Mage - in 5 levels, you have +3 BAB and 3 caster levels, plus the ability to cast 8th level spells and make a single attack roll in the same round, and good fort/will saves. Really easy to get into. It's in the Miniatures Handbook and it's a decent class, but it's not as great as it seems.
I don't quite remember the requirements, but, if BAB is not an issue, a
fighter 1/sorcerer 4/havoc mage 4/spellsword 7/sacred exorcist 4 would be pretty decent.
BAB +16
CL 14th
Fort +13, Ref +5, Will +17
Cast any spell and attacks as a full attack action. When hasted, you could attack twice with Arcane Strike, Channel Spell, and Divine Might; and still cast a 4th level or lower spell. Plus, 7 spellsword levels ease your way into sacred exorcist (because of the knowledge requirements). Plus, no Eldritch Knight levels on this build! Hurray!
If Havoc Mage has +4 BAB as a requirement, then swap 1 level of sacred exorcist for another fighter level, or just go battlesorcerer instead (you net another +1 for your BAB in this case, but your # spells known really sucks).
If UA is allowed, try
fighter 1/sorcerer 2/human paragon 3/havoc mage 4/spellsword 7/sacred exorcist 3
+2 to any ability, +1 bonus feat, BAB +16, CL 13th.
Monk 2/Fighter 2/Wizard 2/Elf Paragon 3/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 10
BAB +17
CL 10th
Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +16
Unlike most Bladesinger builds, there is no Weapon Finesse/Swashbuckler combo on this one. Use a longsword instead of a rapier.
Kung Fu genius (Dragon Magazine #XXX) is a must on this build. Wearing no armor, you'd end up adding twice your Int bonus to AC.
The secret here is taking the Whirling Steel Strike feat to flurry with your longsword. It stacks with song of fury, for another attack. With Arcane Strike, you can deal some decent damage.
This build is probably worse than a swashbuckler bs, but it's a good alternative if you really want to wield a longsword. You could as well try to convince your DM to let you finesse a longsword, or to take an equivalent whirling steel strike feat related to rapiers. In either case, drop the fighter and spellsword levels for swashbuckler 3.
The funny thing is, even cheating by house-ruling, using UA's Elf Paragon, and taking a Dragon Magazine feat, the build STILL SUCKS! What a crappy PrC.
I think that since the change of the bladesinger many people gave up hope on him but its actually a pretty decent class
It's not decent. It's mediocre at best.
I once tried to do a similar thing with the bladesinger. I made the 3 best CW BS builds that I could think of and posted them to the boards for review. They were torn apart, of course, and they weren't bad, mind you. As good as the one you posted there.
If you're interested the thread is located here
I'm still hoping for an errata for Complete Warrior that puts the Bladesinger back to it's previous power level, because the RoF Bladesinger has become too abusable with all the new books and feats. For more on this take a look here
- Dain
Hell, I hate the 3.5 Bladesinger sooo much.
Havoc Mage - in 5 levels, you have +3 BAB and 3 caster levels, plus the ability to cast 8th level spells and make a single attack roll in the same round, and good fort/will saves. Really easy to get into. It's in the Miniatures Handbook and it's a decent class, but it's not as great as it seems.
I don't quite remember the requirements, but, if BAB is not an issue, a
fighter 1/sorcerer 4/havoc mage 4/spellsword 7/sacred exorcist 4 would be pretty decent.
BAB +16
CL 14th
Fort +13, Ref +5, Will +17
Cast any spell and attacks as a full attack action. When hasted, you could attack twice with Arcane Strike, Channel Spell, and Divine Might; and still cast a 4th level or lower spell. Plus, 7 spellsword levels ease your way into sacred exorcist (because of the knowledge requirements). Plus, no Eldritch Knight levels on this build! Hurray!
If Havoc Mage has +4 BAB as a requirement, then swap 1 level of sacred exorcist for another fighter level, or just go battlesorcerer instead (you net another +1 for your BAB in this case, but your # spells known really sucks).
If UA is allowed, try
fighter 1/sorcerer 2/human paragon 3/havoc mage 4/spellsword 7/sacred exorcist 3
+2 to any ability, +1 bonus feat, BAB +16, CL 13th.
It´s good not to use Eldritch Knight, but the thing is that with it I could get to CL 18 and BAB +16...
The problem with my build is that if I´ll go to Havoc Mage for say: BattleCast 4th I´ll loose 2 CL and thus the ability for lvl 9 spells.
I wanted to go with RuneSmith, so I´ll need the all weapon and armor profiencies that I´ll get with a level of fighter. But I´ll guess it compensates after all even if you don´t get the lvl 9 spells. When it comes to BAB, it doesn´t matter if you loose one BAB, because rarely you´ll be doing a full attack, instead you´re doing BattleCast, and even with haste you´ll have just one attack at a time at your best bonuses. The real problem is CL...
Bladesinger to me sounds like an Elf Bard. Unfortunately, the 3.5 Bard doesn't have key spells like Magic Weapon.
Hmm that gives me an idea for the campaign I am running.
Honestly, I don't consider the bladesinger that bad a class. It's mediocre yes, but not terrible. If the prerequisites were adjusted a little and they gained another two special abilities (their current ones moved around a bit) then the class would be fine (ie, move song of fury to 5th level and add a greater song of fury at 10th level that adds another attack for a total of two extra). As it stands though, the bladesinger is not a casting gish. Bladesinger is used for high Intelligence characters, making a psionic translation of bladesinger absolutely perfect to meld with Psion and Swashbuckler. Bladesinger, using it's current 3.5 version, a psionic translation, or the 3.0 version, is always going to be very Spellsword like in nature. In short, that means it's a martial PrC, NOT a casting one.
Here's an example of why the bladesinger isn't too bad.
Swashbuckler3/Psion4/Bladesinger(psionic)10/Cerebral Knight3. Since a large number of the gish types in psionics will be similarly translated variants, it's safe to assume this is legal. BAB +18, ML 11, Intelligence to AC, weapon damage, and psionics (pp/day, dc's), a good many bonus feats, and in general as a martial gish this can seriously kick butt.
If a more arcane magic oriented example is needed, try a Swashbuckler3/Wizard4/Spellsword1/Bladesinger5/Eldritch Knight7 would produce a BAB +18 and CL 14 character that still has Intelligence to AC, weapon damage, and spells (spells per day and dc's). A very lightweight, this build depends on two good scores (Dex and Int) and can honestly put a hurting on enemies with Arcane Strike.
All in all, the prestige class isn't that bad. It's not great, and doesn't synergize well with other classes/PrC's (about as well as a runesmith), but it's not a bad class at all. I'd consider playing more often one if it didn't cost two cruddy feats to get in.
Perhaps the Bladesinger could've been better as a Variant Bard.
Bladesinger to me sounds like an Elf Bard. Unfortunately, the 3.5 Bard doesn't have key spells like Magic Weapon.
Hmm that gives me an idea for the campaign I am running.
Actually, that's a very good idea. 10 level prestige class that focuses on a more martial bard build, and one that actually sings. Might work on that one...
Size & Type: Medium Humanoid (Human)
Hit Dice: 20d8+80 (156)
Iniatitive: +2
Speed: 30ft, 60ft Flying (Good)
Armor Class: 27 (+9 Armor, +2 Dex, +5 Deflection, +1 Buckler) Touch: 17, FF: 25
Base Attack Bonus/Grapple: +15/+19
Attack: +25 +5 Cold Iron Greatsword of Wounding and Spellstoring (2d6+13, 19-20x2, +1 on evil creatures, +1d4 on evil outsiders or undead, +1 Con Damage)
Full Attack: +25/+20/+15, +5 Cold Iron Greatsword of Wounding and Spellstoring (2d6+13, 19-20x2, +1 on evil creatures, +1d4 on evil outsiders or undead, +1 Con Damage)
Space / Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attack: Spells, Dreadful Wrath, Holy Radiance
Special Qualities: Fire, Cold, Electricity Resistance 10, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Wings, Damage Reduction 10/Silver
Saves: Fort: +21 Ref: +19 Will: +22 (+1 to all saves vs Spells & Spell-Like abilites)
Abilities: Str: 18 Dex: 15 Con: 19 Int: 12 Wis: 21 Cha: 19
Skills: Concentration +27, Diplomacy +29*, Sense Motive +28, Craft (Weaponsmithing) +15, Profession (Lawyer) +20, Knowledge (Arcana) +16, Spot +12
Feats: (B)Nymph's Kiss (Cha), Dreadful Wrath, Consecrate Spell, Twin Spell, Nimbus of Light, Holy Radiance, Spellcasting Prodigy (Cha), Sanctify Martial Strike.
Environment: Any
Organization: Children of the Deities
Challenge Rating: 20
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Any Good
Advancement: By Class
Level Adjustment: +0
Equipment: 760,000 remaining gold 865 (for one time use potions or scrolls.)
+5 Manual of Dex,
+5 Manual of Con,
+5 Manual of Wis,
+5 Heavy Fortification, Mithril Chainshirt
Ring of Evasion,
Ring of Protection +5,
Vest of Resistance +5,
Belt of Giant Str +4
+5 Cold Iron Greatsword of Wounding and Spellstoring
Masterwork Buckler
Spells Per Day: 6/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6
Spells Known: 9,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,5,4, DC 15 + Spell Lv
0th- Cure Minor Wounds, Guidance, Detect Magic, Light, Mending, Read Magic, Purify Food and Drink, Create Water, Detect Poison
1st- Protection from Evil, Divine Favor, Detect Evil, Command, Lantern Light, Ray of Hope
2nd- Elation, Cure Moderate Wounds, Silence, Deific Vengeance, Lastai's Caress, Consecrate
3rd- Daylight, Prayer, Searing Light, Affliction, Hearts Ease, Lesser Vigor Mass
4th- Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Restoration, Stars of Arvandor
5th- Crown of Flame, Commune, Dispel Evil, Planeshift, Dragon Breath, True Seeing
6th- Greater Dispel Magic, Heal, Cometfall, Visage of the Deity, Mass Frostburn, Word of Recall
7th- Mass Spell Resistance, Righteous Smite, Shield of the Archons, Fortunate Fate, Holy Word, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
8th- Last Judgement, Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Earthquake, Planar Exchange Greater, Fire Storm
9th- True Resurrection, Gate, Miracle, Sublime Revelry
Now in my opinion I think a Favored Soul who ends up like this is pretty damn powerful. I dont really know what other people see in the class that makes it suck, but im not messing the whole need to prepare spells in advance or can prepare any spell of the same alignment as mine cleric or its turning abilities when I look at this class.
I'm gonna post this build along with its Evil Counterpart when i get the time, Its more than a skeleton of a build but the meaty stuff can be dropped to fill in ones own wants. I just wanted to post it, because after I was done I was very pleased with it, not with the equipment but with all the non purchased stuff in between.
Now in my opinion I think a Favored Soul who ends up like this is pretty damn powerful. I dont really know what other people see in the class that makes it suck, but im not messing the whole need to prepare spells in advance or can prepare any spell of the same alignment as mine cleric or its turning abilities when I look at this class.
I think you might have ended up on the wrong thread there buddy.
Even if the spell normally affects an area or is a ray, it affects only the target.
Oh, and to contribute something other than criticism: am I missing something again, or is channel spell + antimagic field really nasty?
--Impeesa--
Yeah, I'd say it's (here comes my catch phrase regarding CS) a totally sweet way to assassinate a magic user :D
Great way to weaken meleers that rely on magical items, too. Not so great against monsters though.
Yeah, I'd say it's (here comes my catch phrase regarding CS) a totally sweet way to assassinate a magic user :D
Great way to weaken meleers that rely on magical items, too. Not so great against monsters though.
In Eberron "Monsters" tend to be evil people. I mean Goblinoids are a freakin nation that once ruled the continent.
P.S.: Lesser Spellsong is rediculously powerful. By the time you get it you should have a minimum 6 Concentration. So, you should NEVER have to worry about casting in a threatened space again. Just beware of people that ready actions to attack the caster while they cast.
P.S.: Lesser Spellsong is rediculously powerful. By the time you get it you should have a minimum 6 Concentration. So, you should NEVER have to worry about casting in a threatened space again. Just beware of people that ready actions to attack the caster while they cast.
In a way, but it's no longer the only way to do it. There's a new feat in Races of Stone that allows you take 10 on all Concentration checks--not just ones to cast defensively. The only prerequisite it has is 8 ranks Concentration--no race prereq (despite the book it's in, it is not restricted to Dwarves/Gnomes/Goliaths/etc.), no feat prereqs (not even Combat Casting or the like), nothing but 8 ranks Concentration. So, anyone can now have failproof combat casting as a feat.
~Belladonna Knight
So, anyone can now have failproof combat casting as a feat.
Good game, wombats.
:D
In a way, but it's no longer the only way to do it. There's a new feat in Races of Stone that allows you take 10 on all Concentration checks--not just ones to cast defensively. The only prerequisite it has is 8 ranks Concentration--no race prereq (despite the book it's in, it is not restricted to Dwarves/Gnomes/Goliaths/etc.), no feat prereqs (not even Combat Casting or the like), nothing but 8 ranks Concentration. So, anyone can now have failproof combat casting as a feat.
~Belladonna Knight
In the same book is Shielded Casting and Shielded Manifesting. If you have Concentration 5 ranks, Combat Casting (or Combat Manifesting) and are using a Light Shield or bigger you don't provoke Attacks of Opportunity when casting a spell. This kind of puts the Spellsword or Runesmith ahead of a Bladesinger.
In the same book is Shielded Casting and Shielded Manifesting. If you have Concentration 5 ranks, Combat Casting (or Combat Manifesting) and are using a Light Shield or bigger you don't provoke Attacks of Opportunity when casting a spell. This kind of puts the Spellsword or Runesmith ahead of a Bladesinger.
Shielded Casting and Shielded Manifesting are pretty worthless next to Steady Concentration. The only advantage they have over it is that they can be taken slightly sooner (technically as early as 3rd), and you don't need to have a total Concentration mod equal to 5 + spell/power level (which is not hard to do at all). You can get it as early as 6th with just 8 ranks Concentration--and you don't need a shield to use it (not all gishes, or regular casters for that matter, can). What's more, Shielded Casting and Shielded Manifesting have feat requirements (two, or one if you get shield proficiency from a class, or effectively zero if you get shield proficiency from a class and need Combat Casting or Manifesting as a prerequisite for something else you want), whereas Steady Concentration doesn't.
While I, too, could stand to see the Bladesinger improved a bit, its advantages aren't in the casting department as much as they are in Int to AC and the flurry attack. The former can boost your AC by a great deal if you have a high Int, and the latter dovetails beautifully with Arcane Strike.
~Belladonna Knight
Now, with that out of the way, didn't anyone find gish-worthy PrCs in the Libris Mortis?
Soon to Come: Spells of Gish
I'm sure we all know about how awesome Channel Spell is with Prismatic Spray/Wall. However, I just happened upon something perhaps even better than that:
When a spell is channeled through the weapon, it becomes a targeted spell affecting only the creature struck, even if it was an area-effect or ray. This means that a channeled Cloudkill deals 1d4 Con per round (Fort save for half) for 1 minute/level. The creature can't even exit the cloud; just another reason to take Sudden Maximize. :D
Edit: spelling
...Thou. Art. Godlike.
Hey, what happens when you do the same with Mind Fog, Web, Incendiary Cloud, or Solid Fog?
(For those caster-focused gish who get high enough CL to cast Erupt from Serpent Kingdoms, this is a good way to cast it without getting toasted)
Or, the DM would just have major NPCs carry wands of dispel or zone of sweet air.
am I missing something again, or is channel spell + antimagic field really nasty?
Now in going to have to take spellsword levels.......
Otto's irresistable dance is another nice one....spellscythe coupde grace!!!!
as a DM it seems like trouble for my cherished monsters
since there's nothing indicating the Cloudkill stays with the target
I personally would rule it to stay in the square where the oponent
was originally affected by it
I'm sure we all know about how awesome Channel Spell is with Prismatic Spray/Wall. However, I just happened upon something perhaps even better than that:
When a spell is channeled through the weapon, it becomes a targeted spell affecting only the creature struck, even if it was an area-effect or ray. This means that a channeled Cloudkill deals 1d4 Con per round (Fort save for half) for 1 minute/level. The creature can't even exit the cloud; just another reason to take Sudden Maximize. :D
Edit: spelling
Or, if the DM allowed self only spells to be used in CS, what if the DM interpreted it that you essentially cast the AMF on the target, so the target radiates an AMF instead of the caster? Still a great combo to use on a pure caster, but if used on a pure meleer it'd be bad since your stuff would get shut down too.
Alot of these seemingly great combos can be circumvented by (or rather, are created by) interpretation of the somewhat ambiguous rules on CS, including thrown weapons that can hypothetically be used in melee being used as vehicles of a channeled spell.
I just thought about the antimagic field combo in regards to rule interpretation. What if the DM disallowed using it for CS since you can't target others with it? It's a self only spell, after all.
Actually, by the description of Channel Spell itself, it would affect the struck target. "The channeled spell affects the next target that the spellsword successfully attacks with his weapon (saving throws and spell resistance apply normally). Even if the spell normally affects an area or is a ray, it affects only the target." I think this means any spell can really be channeled (ie, if you for whatever reason channel bull's strength it would affect your enemy, not you, making him stronger).
Or, if the DM allowed self only spells to be used in CS, what if the DM interpreted it that you essentially cast the AMF on the target, so the target radiates an AMF instead of the caster? Still a great combo to use on a pure caster, but if used on a pure meleer it'd be bad since your stuff would get shut down too.
The antimagic field would affect the target (see above), but this brings to mind one of the greatest images I have of a gish in combat: gish vs gish. A duel or something, or opposing teams. Although, as far as tactics goes you should probably have Spring Attack if you're going to be using this sort of strategy (high mobility gish builds like assassins and elocaters work wonders with this tactic).
Alot of these seemingly great combos can be circumvented by (or rather, are created by) interpretation of the somewhat ambiguous rules on CS, including thrown weapons that can hypothetically be used in melee being used as vehicles of a channeled spell.
Actually, by its description, a spell must be channeled into a melee weapon, though it never mentions how that weapon is attacked with. I think there was mention of an Elven War Bow or whatever it was called that could be used as a melee weapon, and according to the exact RAW, this would affect the next successful attack with the bow (careful word choice could even say the ammunition itself gains the benefits).
Now, RAI is likely very different. Using RAW yes you could easily have thrown weapons (which can be used in melee in most cases) channel spells, but I'm almost positive the RAI would say otherwise.
As metamagic was mentioned earlier, I suppose spellsword favors wizards over sorcerers. Seeing as how it requires a move-action to channel a spell into the weapon, you couldn't as a sorcerer use a metamagicked spell unless you have Arcane Preparation. Wizards, whose casting time is not increased by use of metamagic, can actually make use of those metamagic feats for empowered and maximized spells.
The Sudden Metamagic feats from the Miniatures Handbook don't increse the casting time or the spell level. You just have to decide if you want to spend a feat on something only usable once per day.
Sudden Metamagic disappoints me. The limited 1/day use is terrible for the cost of a feat, of which sorcerer/bard type casters have so few of. Now, I houserule the times per day to be equal to half your primary casting attribute's ability modifier (rounded down), but even then...
I think this means any spell can really be channeled (ie, if you for whatever reason channel bull's strength it would affect your enemy, not you, making him stronger).
Yeah. You could cast an extended mirror image, fireshield, displacement, spell turning, globe of invunerability, etc on your meleers by slapping them with the flat of your weapon. You could give someone the ability to use telekinesis, with them using your caster level for determining strength of the powers and their opposed rolls when doing combat manuvers with it.
I guess you could use a summon spell, and drop an elephant, or similar on someone, or into someone, and on top of that, only they are affected by it? Cast mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, or similar on someone and he/she...becomes the entrance for the mansion? Is able to designate who enters the mansion? Is the only person that could enter? CS wall of stone or iron and you can, uh, give the target the properties of the respective materials? Turn the victim into a wall? Create a wall into the victim, killing him/her instantly? Use gate and you can turn the person into a...connection point for two planes? CS an X image spell into someone and he/she is the only person that can see the illusion?
Actually, by its description, a spell must be channeled into a melee weapon, though it never mentions how that weapon is attacked with. I think there was mention of an Elven War Bow or whatever it was called that could be used as a melee weapon, and according to the exact RAW, this would affect the next successful attack with the bow (careful word choice could even say the ammunition itself gains the benefits).
Yeah. Arrows can be used as improvised melee weapons, so they could be considered melee weapons for the purposes of CS. So what's the point of saying "melee weapon" instead of just "weapon" in the description? There isn't any, is there?
the thing is if you consider the wording that a "channeled spell affects the next target that the spellsword sucessfuly attacks" overrules the normal target limitations of ALL spells.
SoulLord
Yeah. You could cast an extended mirror image, fireshield, displacement, spell turning, globe of invunerability, etc on your meleers by slapping them with the flat of your weapon. You could give someone the ability to use telekinesis, with them using your caster level for determining strength of the powers and their opposed rolls when doing combat manuvers with it.
Hm...a great idea, and potentially devestating one, so let's explore the rules a little more on this one before we run too far with it.
"The channeled spell affects the next target that the spellsword successfully attacks with his weapon (saving throws and spell resistance still apply). Even if the spell normally affects an area or is a ray, it affects only the target."
Now we'll look at a few of those mentioned spells. Fire shield, globe of invulnerability, and spell turning have range of Personal, target You. Now, if you slap someone with the flat of your swordblade, the Rules As Written (aka RAW) say that the spell would affect them normally. You tap your favorite meleeist in the back and suddenly he's got his own spell turning. This would make sense and I can see this as a perfectly viable use of channel spell.
Now, telekinesis gets a lot more complicated. Seeing as how its range and target(s) is similar in nature to an attack spell, I believe that would rule this as another attack spell. You would choose if you want to violently thrust them away when you strike 'em (a very dangerous ability in mountainous areas or near pits and such). Or you can hit them and just hold them in the air with the sustained force option, which can be good if he's melee oriented, powerful, and is wreaking too much havoc (and telekinesis offers no saving throw). The combat maneuver option enhances the CASTER only, so I don't think this can be used as part of a channel spell attempt.
Channel spell would limit, in effect, very very few spells in its use, and not even entire spells (as telekinesis proves). I'm thinking that either a little rewording of the ability is certainly something WotC needs to consider in its Complete Warrior errata. I can see a lot of min/maxin' munchkins throwing spell-channeled sleet storms, reverse gravities, and power words.
I guess you could use a summon spell, and drop an elephant, or similar on someone, or into someone, and on top of that, only they are affected by it? Cast mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, or similar on someone and he/she...becomes the entrance for the mansion? Is able to designate who enters the mansion? Is the only person that could enter? CS wall of stone or iron and you can, uh, give the target the properties of the respective materials? Turn the victim into a wall? Create a wall into the victim, killing him/her instantly? Use gate and you can turn the person into a...connection point for two planes? CS an X image spell into someone and he/she is the only person that can see the illusion?
Although the PHB says the monster(s) appear where you designate, I think there's an errata that states they must appear on the ground, so I don't know how that idea would work. I suppose because of the vagueness of channel spell the ability will have to be very closely monitered by DM's. I'll certainly be a bit more wary of its use an any campaigns I'm involved in, DM or not.
Yeah. Arrows can be used as improvised melee weapons, so they could be considered melee weapons for the purposes of CS. So what's the point of saying "melee weapon" instead of just "weapon" in the description? There isn't any, is there?
Very good point, which is another point against the wording of channel spell. Now, if it said "the channeled spell affects th enext target that the spellsword successfully attacks in melee" or something akin to that, that would certainly answer a lot of the questioning revolving around ranged weapons improvised to be used in melee (or gish/master thrower builds, crappy as they tend to be anyway).
Does channeling a spell trigger an AoO?
Yes, all spell-like abilities trigger attacks of opportunity when used.
The channeled spell affects the next target that the spellsword successfully attacks with his weapon (saving throws and spell resistance still apply). Even if the spell normally affects an area or is a ray, it affects only the target.
And now, from the SRD concerning a spell's range:
A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.
What does this mean? The Spellsword's Channel Spell ability could potentially change a 'personal' range spell's target from 'you' to 'creature struck'. However, unless that creature is at a 'personal' range from the caster, the effects of that spell cannot occur. Yes, the creature struck becomes the target of your spell, but Channel Spell cannot alter the range at which the spell can occur, only the area/target affected.
Compare it to the Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow ability, which allows you to use the bow's range instead of the spell's range. Even if you use Channel Spell on an improvised melee arrow, then proceed to fire it at a creature outside that spell's normal range, it will not be affected because that spell can only occur out to the range given in its description. Only by striking yourself (or your familiar) with a use of Channel Spell with a 'personal' range spell will it actually make anything happen, because thats as far as a 'personal' range spell can go.
Edit: spelling
Of course you could compare with magic circle against X spells, which have the range as 'touch' and area as '10ft radius enamination from touched creature'.
since it strikes the first target sucessfully hit instead of you choosing when to release the spell.
stats(4d6-lowest in order, one reroll, switch once)
STR 12
DEX 21
CON 10
INT 18
WIS 08
CHA 10
race: Athasian Elf (+4DEX,+2INT,-2CON)
1. F1 weapon finesse(B), Improved Toughness
2. F1/W1 eschew materials(B)(instead of scribe scroll-house rule)
3. F1/W2 practised spellcaster
(now at level3)
4. F2/W2 power attack(+1 stat into STR)
5. F2/W3
6. F2/W4 combat reflexes or a meta-magic feat??????
7. F2/W4/SS1
8. F2/W4/SS2 (+1 stat into DEX)
9. F2/W4/SS3 arcane strike
etc into SS and EK
i'm mainly curious about the best feats i should take. all the other stat increases will go into INT, focus is to go into melee with a rapier and occasionally shoot with a bow or use throwing weapons(into which spells can also be channelled)
i tried to make this build work with the swashbuckler but because of the required armor proficiency(medium)+(heavy) to get into the SS-PrC the combination would be so feat-less i just couldn't. Besides with SB you can only wear light armor.
The Sublime Chord PrC and thus the possibility for nasty bard gishes should be mentioned. Ditto the Wu Jen, Warlock, and particularly War Mage core classes. Complete Arcane is out, people!
Emphasis mine. And no
. Giant Size, spell level 7, at caster level 19 can boost you to Colossal size, granting +32 (zomgwtfbbq!!1one!1) Strength, +12 Con (ohhh yeah), +12 natural armour, Colossal weaponry, and a reach of 30 feet, all at the price of -2 Dex, -8 AC/Attack (largely offset by the Str bonus and natural armour), and a 30-foot space. With all that, even a single-classed Wu Jen is a threat in melee, let alone a full-on gish.Just be mindful that if you're going to use Wu Jen in the place of Wizard for your next gish, armour is even more imperative at early levels, because Wu Jen don't get Mage Armour (ow ow ow). Get a suit of Twilight leather armour, and then/or a Twilight mithril chain shirt, as soon as you possibly can, and always have potions of Mage Armour in the meantime.
~Belladonna Knight
at the price of -2 Dex, -8 AC/Attack (largely offset by the Str bonus and natural armour)
Not largely offset, completely offset! You still come out with +8 on your old attack bonus & +3 Ac.
Maybe gishes could be the best grapplers in D&D? Draconic polymorph into war troll followed up by a giant size. All you need after that is reasonable unarmed damage (which you get from collosal natural weapons) & other miscullaneous bonuses.
You don't even need Draconic Poymorph for War Troll.
Bard 9 / Dragonslayer 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Eldritch Knight 8
BAB +16
F +11
R +8
W +15
CL 19
Feats req'd: Iron Will, Dodge
Special: Immune to Fear, Bardic Abilities to level9, Song of Arcane Power, all Simple & Martial weapons, all armor prof
Spells known:
Bard:
0 - 6
1 - 4
2 - 4
3 - 4
4 - 2
Any Bard/Wiz/Sorc:
4 - 4
5 - 4
6 - 4
7 - 3
8 - 2
9 - 1
Full out attack + 9th level spells + casting in light armor = Dream Come True
What do y'all think?
Zeb
EDIT: Wait, Bard has better skills. Hmm. There has to be something more optimal that doesn't lose that point of BAB.
Why Bard 9? you can qualify for DSlayer at lvl 7, take two more levels of Eldritch Knight instead.
EDIT: Wait, Bard has better skills. Hmm. There has to be something more optimal that doesn't lose that point of BAB.
Hmm, Sublime Chord has that pesky Listen 13 / Know(arcana) 13 requirement ... when I was figuring it, the Bard skills beat out any other contender I could think of.
Any suggestions are definitely appreciated. Can the 1st +1 CL of EK go towards bard, and then the rest towards SC?
Like, Bard 7 / DS 1 / EK 2 / SC 2 / EK to 10 ?
The EK 2 would go to Bard, then the other 8 EK to SC, if that's possible. Only change is BAB goes to +17 at 20th, and there are fewer skills, and less Bard abilities to work with.
1 BAB for Inspire courage +2 and greatness + better skills? Doesn't seem like a good trade at first glance.
*ponders*
Thanks,
Zeb
bard 8 (bab 6, CL 8) / ds 1 (bab 1, CL 1) / ek 1 (bab 1, no CL) / SC 2 (1 BAB, 2 CL) / EK to 9 (+8 BAB, +8 CL)
Bard 8 / DS 1 / SC 2 / EK 9
All the +CL of EK would then go to SC
BAB +18
CL 19
Bard spells as level 9 then Sublime Chord spells as level 10
I think that would work....
But speaking of bard builds, what about that build from http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4838324#post4838324 ?
Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellsword 5/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8
(Requires Skill Knowledge or Versatile - and yes, I did get this one first)
BAB: +18
Caster Level: 20
9th level Arcane Spells
(almost the Holy Grail of the Gish)
Is the CL 20 assuming practiced spellcaster? And as mentioned in that thread you could take from SS and add to EK for slightly faster and more high level spells before lv20, at the cost of channel spell (and HP/saves). Give and take. Think the build works out well though?
I think bard8/EK9 is most optimal, especially if you're an exalted bard with words of creation!
But speaking of bard builds, what about that build from http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4838324#post4838324 ?
Is the CL 20 assuming practiced spellcaster? And as mentioned in that thread you could take from SS and add to EK for slightly faster and more high level spells before lv20, at the cost of channel spell (and HP/saves). Give and take. Think the build works out well though?
Seems like CL 20 for that other build is based on practiced spellcaster... so it wouldn't really have 9th level spells.
EDIT: Well, maybe it does, even though non-feat CL is 16.
Bard 4 + 3 CL from SS = Bard 7 CL
SC 2 + 7 CL from EK = SC 9 CL (9th level spells).
Bard 8/DS1/EK1 as the prefix before SC & more EK levels provides a slightly higher / maximized SC CL (10).
Unforunately the costs of innate spell are ridiculous for what you get.
Warmage update could be a good fighter/mage option as well.
Battle caster and Innate spell could be useful for fighter/mages
Unforunately the costs of innate spell are ridiculous for what you get.
Warmage update could be a good fighter/mage option as well.
where is innate spell listed, I can't find it....
Bard 8/Dragonslayer 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch knight 9
BAB: +18/+13/+8/+3
Caster Level: 19 (spells as 9th level bard and 10th level sublime chord - 9th level spells!)
Saves: +10 /+9 /+16 (includes Iron Will)
Special: One EK feat, Immune to fear, Bard abilities (as 8th level), +1 dmg to dragons, cast in light armor!
Requirements: All Martial Weapons, Iron Will, Dodge
Books: Players Handbook, Dungeon Master Guide, Draconomicon, Complete Arcane
I like this build because as a later level caster you can select from the bard and wiz/sorc lists. A sample spell list for this gish could include neutralize poison, cure serious wounds, mass cure moderate wounds! Blasting, information gathering ,fighting, healing - watch out, this cat is darn near a triple threat! Plus he'll be able to charm the pants off of anything!
This is the progression: Bard 8 / DS 1 / EK 1 / SC 2 / EK to 9 to maximize the caster progression from EK to SC.
Sorry if this has been answered before, but what the Hell does Gish actually mean or come from. I've heard of Gestalt Characters, which sound like the 2E multiclassing deals, but why "Gish"?
Gish is the Githyanki word for arcane warrior types (bards, fighter-wizard, fighter-sorcerer, etc). It's an established caste in their society.
And nice short-hand for us to use. :D
"If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an eldritch knight, she must decide to which class she adds each level of eldritch knight for the purposes of determining spells per day"
i.e. you could only advance Bard if you take EK before SC.
This is the progression: Bard 8 / DS 1 / EK 1 / SC 2 / EK to 9 to maximize the caster progression from EK to SC.
Bard 7/DS1/Bard8/SC2/EK9, unless I'm mistaken.
B 8 / DS1 / EK 1 casts like a 9th level bard, with no bonuses from EK.
Add SC 2 and then the rest of EK, and all the EK should be going to SC.
Thanks,
Zeb
B 8 / DS1 / EK 1 casts like a 9th level bard, with no bonuses from EK.
Add SC 2 and then the rest of EK, and all the EK should be going to SC.
Thanks,
Zeb
Again, that's against the rules of EK. You can only advance a class taken prior to taking EK. If you take EK before SC, then you can only advance Bard with EK.
I checked my trusty DMG, and it says "starting at 2nd level..."
Quoth the SRD:
Spells per Day: From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.
If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an eldritch knight, she must decide to which class she adds each level of eldritch knight for the purpose of determining spells per day.
So taking the first level of EK before SC doesn't have any negative impact to advancing SC spellcasting with EK 2 to 9.
I checked my trusty DMG, and it says "starting at 2nd level..."
So taking the first level of EK before SC doesn't have any negative impact to advancing SC spellcasting with EK 2 to 9.
(your campaign, your ruling // my campaign my ruling)I emphasise the following:
From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class.
... she must decide to which class she adds each level of eldritch knight for the purpose of determining spells per day.
In my reading, the key phrase is "from second level on".
Anyone else have an opinion on this?
Cheers,
Zeb
As far as I can tell from your example, Bard 8/DS 1/EK 1/DS 2 added the prestige class at 10th level and Bard is the only arcane spellcasting class that you belonged to at that point in time.
But perhaps I'm missing something obvious...
YCYR ... MCMR
I emphasise the following:
From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class.
In my reading, the key phrase is "from second level on".
* shrug *
Bard 9 / Dragonslayer 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Eldritch Knight 8 was actually my first crack at this combo (see above posts). Eeking out that 10th level of SC using the "Sublime Knight" post still makes sense to me.
Another option, Bard 10 (with militia feat) / Sublime Chord 2 / Eldritch Knight 8 if you have a GM that isn't fond of PrC dips/odd progressions.
-------
Gonna start looking to see how Telf. Shadowlord + Sublime Chord could work out for a sneaky caster type.
Bard 9/Dragonslayer 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch knight 8
BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1
Caster Level: 19 (spells as 10th level bard and 9th level sublime chord - 9th level spells!)
Saves: +11 /+8 /+15 (includes Iron Will)
Special: One EK feat, Immune to fear, Bard abilities (as 9th level), +1 dmg to dragons, cast in light armor!
Requirements: All Martial Weapons, Iron Will, Dodge
Books: Players Handbook, Dungeon Master Guide, Draconomicon, Complete Arcane
Some don't agree that EK 1 can go before SC. This is another version.
I like this build because as a later level caster you can select from the bard and wiz/sorc lists. A sample spell list for this gish could include neutralize poison, cure serious wounds, mass cure moderate wounds! Blasting, information gathering ,fighting, healing - watch out, this cat is darn near a triple threat! Plus he'll be able to charm the pants off of anything!
Yet Another Option: no dip to Dragonslayer, take Bard 10 / SC 2 / EK 8, add requires Militia feat. BAB is still +16, saves are slightly different.
I agree to disagree. I think the designers had the "Starting at 2nd level..." as the intro there for a reason.
Which means you have to pick the spellcasting class you want to be improved by the EK before you pick a singe level of EK.
Of course, if SC spells can be cast in light armor then I'm wrong :D
"As with bard spells, the somatic components for a sublime chord's spells do not incur an arcane spell failure chance as normal for arcane spells if the sublime chord is wearing light armor."
:D
"Spellboxer"
Human Monk 1/Sorcerer 4/Enlightened Fist 10/Dragonslayer 1/Eldritch Knight 4
End BAB +14, Caster level 16 (20 with practiced caster)
For a more weapon oriented build (a-la crouching tiger), how about these "Theme and Variation" classes:
"Don't Call Me Li Mu Bai" or "Wuxia!"
Fighter 2/Wu Jen 4/Spellsword 5/Shou Disciple 3/Eldritch Knight 6
Caster level 12, BAB +18, cool stuff like martial flurry (light) and channel spell. Go for light weapons (like, say... a straightsword? Treat as rapier.)
Fighter 2/Wu Jen 3/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 10
BAB +18, Caster lvl 15.
My attempt at combining the Divine Fist and Enlightened Fist:
Monk 1/Favored Soul 1/Sorcerer 3/Enlightened Fist 9/Sacred Fist 3
AAAANNNDD lastly theres this build, unnamed so far:
Monk 1/Cleric 1/Paladin 3/Sacred Fist 10/Warpriest 5
What do you all think? The Wuxia build and the Spellboxer are my favorites.
I would have thought it would be a natural with a D6 Hit die, 2/3 BAB progression, the ability to wear ligth armour, and the invocation that allows you to add you eldritch blast to melee attacks.
I would love to see some builds. I'd post some, but I don't own the CA yet.
Ignatius
Human Paragon 1/Paladin 2/Sorceror 2/Human Paragon 2/Spellsword 1/Virtuoso 1/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 1/Eldritch Knight 7
BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1 (with fraction BAB)
Caster Level: 17 (spells as 6th level sorceror and 10th level sublime chord)
Saves: +14 /+3 /+7 (add charisma to saves)
Feats: Power Attack, Divine Might, Extra Music, Arcane Strike, Snowflake Wardance
Use Human Paradon adaptive learning for perform skill, and your chosen class skills to meet tough requirements like knowledge skills for sacred exorcist and charisma skills for virtuoso.
This build has huge charisma synergy with divine grace, divine might, and snowflake wardance for CHA to hit, damage, and saves. In addition to Arcane strike and decent polymorph forms you can go crazy. With the no EK b4 SC issue, you could take another level of spellsword or somethign for the bonus feat and get 9th level sublime spellcasting. Or you could use dragonslayer if you feel like picking up iron will and dodge early on, for immunity to fear and no reduction in BAB or caster level.
Sublime Arcane Exorcist
Human Paragon 1/Paladin 2/Sorceror 2/Human Paragon 2/Spellsword 1/Virtuoso 1/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 1/Eldritch Knight 7
BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1 (with fraction BAB)
Caster Level: 17 (spells as 6th level sorceror and 10th level sublime chord)
Saves: +14 /+3 /+7 (add charisma to saves)
Feats: Power Attack, Divine Might, Extra Music, Arcane Strike, Snowflake Wardance
Use Human Paradon adaptive learning for perform skill, and your chosen class skills to meet tough requirements like knowledge skills for sacred exorcist and charisma skills for virtuoso.
This build has huge charisma synergy with divine grace, divine might, and snowflake wardance for CHA to hit, damage, and saves. In addition to Arcane strike and decent polymorph forms you can go crazy. With the no EK b4 SC issue, you could take another level of spellsword or somethign for the bonus feat and get 9th level sublime spellcasting. Or you could use dragonslayer if you feel like picking up iron will and dodge early on, for immunity to fear and no reduction in BAB or caster level.
Sorry I can't post much, but a quick FYI regarding the Eldritch Knight levels, the spellcasting level increases granted by the PrC are in regards to the class before Eldritch Knight is taken. Unless the consensus has been changed yet again. I'd post stuff on Complete Arcane but I have no access to it at all (similar to why I haven't posted anything in Complete Cleric.../Divine).
Are Warmages and Warlocks bad Gishes then? Or just not optimal?
Right, second question, what's the DS from? I'd guess the Dragonomnicon (You know the one).
Are Warmages and Warlocks bad Gishes then? Or just not optimal?
Yes, the dragonslayer is from Draconomicon. As for warmages and warlocks, I don't know where they're from (don't have access to them to write up something post-worthy about 'em). I'd make an educated guess and say Complete Arcane, though, but I'm not so sure I'm going to be getting that particular book. I hear more bad than good about it.
As for my previous Eldritch Knight comment, I see a large inconsistency with that consensus I brought up. By that logic any PrC that uses "+1 caster level", or whatever it's written as, applies to only one class, and everyone's seen cases where it's applied to multiple casting classes before. There doesn't appear to be any restriction in the description of this "+1 caster level" trait that would prevent a player from placing that +1 caster level into several casting classes, so I would rule it as acceptable that the Eldritch Knight be used in the way Maruuk described. 'Course, I'm prone to several house rules anyhow, just my opinion.
If anybody would like to send me some information on the warmage and warlock I could add them to the Classes/Prestige Classes section.
Human(Militia)
Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Sacred Exorcist 4
BAB : +16
CL : 19
Special : ridiculous ability to turn undead :P
Dunno if this build has already been mentioned but what about :
Human(Militia)
Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Sacred Exorcist 4
BAB : +16
CL : 19
Special : ridiculous ability to turn undead :P
Wouldn't you prefer Sorcerer6 to wizard6 in this case? Turning attempts deal with Charisma, so I would think that focusing on one ability score for multiple benefits would be more useful than splitting focus between two ability scores.
Sorcerous Exorcist
(Militia) Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight10/Sacred Exorcist4
BAB: +16
CL: 19
28-Point Buy: 14, 12, 12, 10, 10, 16
32-Point Buy: 14, 12, 12, 10, 10, 18
Charisma here is used for both primary casting and for turning undead, which helps close the gap between this build and a full cleric in turning since a cleric must split his ability score focus between two scores (Wisdom and Charisma) to be good at this.
Pick the flavor of Paladin which suits you alignment wise
With song of Arcane Power you can boost your caster level to 20. My biggest problem is you're limited to 8th level spells.
If there is a feat that works the way Cosmopolitan (FRCS) used to work in 3.0, I would drop Human Paragon and change the progression so that it looks like this...
Now you get 9th level spells but you lose alot of skills; the first one is definitly versatilier...
Dunno if this build has already been mentioned but what about :
Human(Militia)
Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Sacred Exorcist 4
BAB : +16
CL : 19
Special : ridiculous ability to turn undead :P
Warlock's, unfortunately, cannot become Sacred Exorcists. Look at SE requirements, you must be able to cast a specific spell.
Warlock's, unfortunately, cannot become Sacred Exorcists. Look at SE requirements, you must be able to cast a specific spell.
I thought he said wizard though...
:embarrassEnjoy!
Norad also had a good build here that combines PWM with Warmind6, reasoning that Sweeping Strike goes very well with the Weapon Master's abilities.
Great resource, BTW.
Now, as for combining the two classes, I like the idea of Fighter2/Hexblade3/War Mind6/Psychic Weapon Master9 with starting race as Elan and a 1st level feat of Education. This provides full base attack bonus, access to the full battery of War Mind psionics and many of their goodies, all of the best psychic weapon master abilities, and at lawful neutral I see this build very clearly with a scythe and a black cloak ;). The full base attack bonus works wondefully with Power Attack (-5 to hit, +10 damage). Good saves (+12/+12/+8) and Mettle to top it off, great damage potential (x4 crit increased to x5, Improved Critical and Power Critical increasing threat range to 17-20). That's a 1 in 5 roll chance of threatening for a critical, plus feats like Psionic Meditation and (Greater) Psionic Weapon increase the damage more. A first hit with a +3 deep crystal scythe and Strength 18 would look something like this:
2d4 (scythe) + 4d6 (GPW) + 2d6 (deep crystal) + 3 (enhancement) + 6 (Str) = 35 damage average
With a 20% chance to use instead:
10d4 (scythe) + 4d6 (GPW) + 2d6 (deep crystal) + 3 (enhancement) + 6 (Str) = 55 damage average
This can be accomplished as early as 5th level anyway (with lower critical chance and critical damage mind you) with Concentration 7, Strength 13, Wisdom 13, Greater Psionic Weapon, Psionic Meditation, and Psionic Weapon. Power Attack thrown in too if you want extra punch. Taking the PWM, as you can see, can make for some big hits. Hit once for your first hit, use hustle to gain Psionic Focus again for another good second hit, and afterwards you have your normal attacks. Deep crystal definitely synergizes well but burns a lot of PP real fast if you're not careful (potentially bringing you below the PP reserve needed for the PWM's abilities).
This was accomplished with minimal effort and is the reason why PWM has been added to the list as a gish-worthy PrC.
Hey, remember you multiply str and enhancement boni on a crit too.
Huh, very true. They changed that from 3.0 where only weapon damage is multiplied. Okay, I'm going to assume by the PHB's description of critical hits that I'm basically rolling ALL of the damage a number of times equal to the critical modifier.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together
In this case the modifier is x5, meaning I roll that hit five times. Let's refigure numbers then for a critical, still using Strength 18 and the mentioned goodies in my previous post:
2d4 (scythe) + 4d6 (GPW) + 2d6 (deep crystal) + 3 (enhancement) + 6 (Str) = 35 damage average
With a 20% chance to use instead:
10d4 (scythe) + 20d6 (GPW) + 10d6 (deep crystal) + 15 (enhancement) + 30 (Str) = 175 damage average
That is one hell of a hit. But wait, there's more. Psionic weapon causes the weapon damage to be maxed, meaning we don't even roll for that. 10d4's average is 25 damage, but maxed it's 40 damage, increasing the total average to 190. That's almost 200 damage, in one hit, with minimal effort and acquirable as early as 9th level (2nd level Psychic Weapon Master). I do not believe there is one CR 9 creature in any of the WotC books that can stand against a party where one member can, one in ten times (same as any normal greatsword), bust out well over 150 damage with one hit.
I suppose that means the general idea of the Psychic Weapon Master as a gish is to just beat the hell out of the critical hit rules. All the while he may use all of those high-damage attacks, there is nothing stopping the psychic weapon master from simply using his psionics to manifest, say, temporal acceleration or a graft weapon/claws of the beast combo.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
The +4d6 (GPsiWeap) and +2d6 (DeepCrystal) do not get multiplied.
Thus:
2d4 (scythe) + 4d6 (GPW) + 2d6 (deep crystal) + 3 (enhancement) + 6 (Str) = 35 damage average
With a 20% chance to use instead:
10d4 (scythe) + 4d6 (GPW) + 2d6 (deep crystal) + 15 (enhancement) + 30 (Str) = 91 damage average
For maximums of 91 and 121 damage, respectively.
Still nothing to scoff at, but it's not quite as potent as you'd thought.
I'm particularily tickled with an idea that Ming the Meaningless came up with here. While not exactly a common gish idea (I mean, it's got combat, weak SA, and spell-likes, plus the TSL goodies and gish classes!), the warlock/TSL potential of making multiple full-attacks at will with +16 BAB is nothing to scoff at. Both builds fully mentioned there are interesting, and LordKiwi came up with an interesting idea in the thread linked in that topic of using an on-command circlet of Schism to grant you yet another full attack, and/or Quicken Spell-Like to get still another.
I'd do a writeup on the warlock and warmage if I felt I could. I normally end up playing the party's "thief" role; I don't have enough actual gish experience, I feel, to give these classes justice.
That said, Shadow Mage, here's a quick, opinionated review:
The warmage is very similar to the version printed in the Miniatures Handbook; you can think about general ideas from that one. It's still the MMORPG players' magic using character of choice -- it automatically knows all the spells on its list (something not terribly clear in the MiniHB) and casts as sorcerors do, and nearly all of them do direct damage. If your gish is taking Sorceror because you want to nuke stuff (possible for caster gish), replace it with Warmage; it's uniformly better at that. However, if you want access to actual buff spells or most non-evocation spells, stick to Sorceror.
On the other hand, Warlocks (d6 HD, 3/4 AB, 2 SP base, favors Will) have a very narrow power selection, but all of them are at-will spell-like abilities (subject to ASF, unlike most) -- most of them are unique abilities, though, or combinations of spell effects, instead of copying a particular spell. Nearly all of them affect himself as a buff, and last all day (sounds good for any character who appreciates buffs, gish included). He also gets a respectable at-will blast ray, and can alter it with certain abilities if he takes them. On top of all this, he gets DR/cold iron, the option to take 10 on Use Magic Device checks, energy resistances, and a lower-end, 1/day fast healing option at higher levels. Furthermore, no single ability score shines as a must-have -- it's almost a no-ability-dependancy class.
The big gish-related drawbacks?
1) No spells. It cannot qualify for any class that requires you to "cast... spells of Xth level or higher" or most that say "must be able to cast X spell." It CAN qualify for prestige classes that require specific spells if the player takes the right invocations, though (very few actually copy the necessary spell effects), and the few classes introduced in there that require "caster level X." Regardless, this rules out most of the usual gish classes without some unusual multiclassing at higher levels. It also restricts you from most of the standard gish-defining spells, although certain invocations can help compensate in unusual ways.
2) 2 SP per level, and no bonus feats. Further restricts some prestige classing. However, carefully look at Complete Warrior, page 16. It implies you can use an item to meet some prestige class prerequisites. While this is minor, and nitpicky, you can probably make use of your UMD skill and see what happens.
3) Must be Chaotic or Evil. While alignment restrictions aren't too common among the gish classes you mentioned, this does rule out some of them (notably paladin and monk ones), though it still meshes well with Assassin.
My initial gish-related conclusion, from my limited experience as one: This is not going to be an easy class to use in gish builds. They'd make an excellent dip, if you chose the right invocations and had a level or two free. 2 levels in it gives you a 1d6 at-will ray, at-will detect magic, 2 at-will invocations (which can be interesting buffs) and +1 BAB. A third level gives you DR 1/cold iron, +2 total BAB, and the ray is now 2d6. More than this I would never suggest for a gish (and even then 3 whole levels is stretching it), and as written it takes some pretty serious manipulation to find a good way to use them. However, those who do find a way (usually by rethinking what exactly fufills the "magic" requirement of a gish) can probably make people do a double-take, and can do what they do all day, every day.
The most interesting gish-thing with the warlock is that it makes the classes that grant independant spellcasting abilities a more appealing option. For instance, assassin grants a unique spell list (which can qualify you for many of the other gish classes, which you'd use to power up your warlock CL), and it falls within the alignment restriction for Warlock as well. As funny as it sounds partial-casters like the assassin (or in the linked thread's case, TSL) are now potential qualifiers for gish PRCs. This does, of course, require the character to be a higher level than the race-to-gish accepted trend here, though.
The warmage sounds like something designed for a slightly different system then what we normally use for D&D, but sounds respectable enough. Depending on the spell progression and spells per day I'd like to see how well this will mesh with a few particular prestige classes, namely a the spellsword/TSL combo of channel spell + shadow pounce (sneak attack plus the channeled spell plus greatsword damage).
The warlock sounds interesting. I get a good rogue/swashbuckler/assassin/warlock/eldritch knight vibe off that one, but I'll have to see the class itself first. I like the idea of at will abilities because at low levels they are immensely useful. They tend to drop out in power at higher levels though, especially since the ray you mentioned (and everybody else is mentioning) is usable only once per round. I'm leaning against purchasing Complete Arcane, because right now only a couple feats (the dual wand using feats and one or two others), only a couple spells (one mentioned in the online preview), and a couple base classes look interesting.
I appreciate the input Tempest, I can almost write up something on both the warmage and warlock now.
Just a weeee bit more and one peek into Complete Arcane left.Something I can sneak past a slightly stingy on the PrCs DM ;p
I would love to see something (simple) with the Warlock.
Something I can sneak past a slightly stingy on the PrCs DM ;p
What are you looking for? Melee or Range? Spells + Warlock Invocations or just Invocations? Most Warlock or just a few levels of it?
Most +1 caster level classes add the word 'level' in such a way to allow what you describe below. EK does not.
As for my previous Eldritch Knight comment, I see a large inconsistency with that consensus I brought up. By that logic any PrC that uses "+1 caster level", or whatever it's written as, applies to only one class, and everyone's seen cases where it's applied to multiple casting classes before. There doesn't appear to be any restriction in the description of this "+1 caster level" trait that would prevent a player from placing that +1 caster level into several casting classes, so I would rule it as acceptable that the Eldritch Knight be used in the way Maruuk described. 'Course, I'm prone to several house rules anyhow, just my opinion.
Shadow Mage:
1) The quotes were from the 3.5 PHB. The 3.0 one said that extra damage represented by extra dice isn't multiplied, which is clearer in many cases, but leaves some abilities a bit vague, and makes stuff like Collision (a flat +5 damage for a +2 weapon enhancement, XPH) seem sickeningly overpowered.
2) Warmages, in case you don't have the MiniHB either, have the Sorceror's Spells Per Day and automatically know every spell on their list, which is almost entirely direct-damage spells. They also get their Intelligence to spell damage (the magical swashbuckler, and they get it at level 1. It only applies to their spells, though) and can cast in light armor and light shields just fine (with simple/light/light shields proficiency). They also get the ability to do that for free in medium armor at 8th level (still only light shields, but they get automatic medium armor prof here). For spell gish, this seems very interesting. Just capitalizing on this gives us Warmage 8 (militia) / Eldritch Knight 10 / [any +1/+1 BAB/CL class here) and you get 19th level super-evocation (cast as often as a level 19 sorc), +16 base attack (4 attacks a round), and you're doing this with no failure at all in medium armor or light shields (without using Spellsword -- and heavy armor (and possibly even heavy shields!) if you take Battle Caster). This is with no effort whatsoever and sounds like a kickin' spell gish. It's even in flavor for the warmages, who are trained to be soldiers.
3) There's also a feat I forgot to mention in CA that also forces us to rethink how we get around armor: Battle Caster. It requires to you have the "ability to avoid arcane spell failure from armor" (slightly vague) and lets you apply this option to the next-highest grade of armor (so a Battle Caster bard gets free Medium armor, or a battle-caster warmage gets free Heavy armor!). It can only be taken once, though.
4) Look at the Warlock Analysis thread. They're recently showing up to be a weaker class in general, but just so damn cool. Caelic suggested a 2, 4, or 6 level dip to grab the nice things early on, too. One interesting thing I saw about the Warlock, though -- there's absolutley nothing written on what ex-warlocks are like, i.e. no rules exist for warlocks who change alignment from Chaotic or Evil. Is it like the monk, where you keep everything, or like the barbarian, where you lose the big bonuses? We don't know! :D
Mommy was an Orc:
Spells per Day: From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.
If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an eldritch knight, she must decide to which class she adds each level of eldritch knight for the purpose of determining spells per day.
I agree it had to be a class you entered prior to Eldritch Knight. However, I dispute the 1 and only 1 class argument.
The "essentially" line is an example, not the rule (note that if you use it as the rule, EK gives +10 caster levels).
The second bit is the critical one. "each" is a logically exclusive argument as compared to "every" (which is inclusive). In simple words, this means that each level is taken individually and added to an individual, valid class, as compared to every level being applied to the same class.
So, if I were a wizard/warlock/eldritch knight (odd example, but run with me), I could choose to apply the second EK level to the wizard, the third and fourth to Warlock, the fifth through eigth to wizard, etc. Meanwhile, if I took a level of warmage in there, it could never benefit from the EK training, since I took it after the first EK level.
This same reasoning holds from the normal +1 CL classes as well.
[color=DarkRed]Sublime Arcanamach[/color]
Pick the flavor of Paladin which suits you alignment wise
With song of Arcane Power you can boost your caster level to 20. My biggest problem is you're limited to 8th level spells.
If there is a feat that works the way Cosmopolitan (FRCS) used to work in 3.0, I would drop Human Paragon and change the progression so that it looks like this...
the feat is from Unearthed Arcana (p. 81) it's called Skill Knowledge.
Bard 4
Fighter 1
Havoc Mage 5
Sublime Chord 1
Eldritch Knight 6
Spellsword 1
Dragonslayer 1
Bladesinger 1
You burn alot of feats but you end up with:
BAB +16
9th level spells
Fort +16; Ref +8; Will +18
the abilty to Battlecast 8th level spells
I think it's legal, let me know if it isn't
What are you looking for? Melee or Range? Spells + Warlock Invocations or just Invocations? Most Warlock or just a few levels of it?
I was thinking ranged, since there is that light armor issue. Need to have a couple Dark Invocations is the biggie.
Even a simple Warlock9/Fighter1/EK10 would suffice for me.
That said, two carefully timed levels in Rogue and a 14 intelligence can get you qualified for Assassin. Try warlock 3 / rogue 2 / assassin 3 / dragonslayer 1 (apply to Assassin) / Spellsword 1 (apply to assassin) / eldritch knight 10 (apply all 9 levels to warlock). I haven't worked out the quick and dirty on this guy, but it gets you 12 levels of warlock for the purposes of eldritch blast and invocations, so you get a greater invocation. Your base attack is about 17, and you have third level assassin spells and (I think) 3d6 sneak attack to boot. You can possibly rotate dragonslayer/spellsword out of there in favor of other classes or extra assassin levels if you work in Militia at level 1, and that would make you wonderfully feat-nonintensive, but some DMs don't like that workaround. If you do this, avoid taking rogue first -- you want to be able to dump 5 skill points each into hide and move silently each time you take it, so you actually want to AVOID the rogue 1 start (which is frequent for skill boosts).
All of a sudden, a low-requirement class that gives obscenely fast, independant spell level progression (regardless of type) becomes a rather important goal, don't you think? Sounds kind of funny that we actually want to step away from a single spellcasting class progression in the name of gish-hood, eh?
They need to rewrite the Core PrCs to work with the new PrC caster requirement rules.
Basically, if it is going to take more than 1 or 2 dips to get the "gish" aspect going, I'm not going to beable to get it to fly with my DM.
Better off going Warlock20.
It will take a bit of work or a DM that is willing to alter prerequisites, as you mentioned (Complete Arcane explains the flavor reasoning behind prerequisites; it might be possible to determine which classes should remain "Xth level spell" classes and which should be "caster level X" classes from that). It won't be easy. But it will be damn cool.
EDIT -- the build I'm finally using is Rogue 3 / Warlock 6 / TSL 6 / EK 5, which is far from optimized but works under my DM's rulings (To discourage dips, he allows only base classes to be taken before finishing a prestige class. So in other words, if I take the first TSL level, I can't pick up EK until I finish TSL, but I can spread it out with core classes if I want). This version has CL 11, BAB +15, plus all the shadowlord goodies including the Death Attack and the beautiful Shadow Pounce (combined with Flee the Scene, which means at-will teleport/full attack as a standard action). The versions in the thread I linked pulled it off with one higher base attack point (up to a base attack of +16), maybe one higher warlock CL (if you're evil), and 2 gish dips (dragonslayer/spellsword). If you choose your invocations well and make strategic use of the TSL abilities, that's pretty close to a gish for me. About as specialized as the warlock is compared to the sorceror, though, but still a respectful magical and martial in one character.
I'm convinced the "gishlock" is a valid and probable idea. We just can't slot the class into pre-existing gish pigeonholes as easily as before.
All the Warlocks defenses come from their base class progression (the DR, fast healing, etc.) and armor or items. That means that if you want to be a non-Blaster Gish then it gets tricky.
In the Warlock Analysis thread I suggested a Warlock-14 / Warmind-6 build as a sort of melee Gish. The build gets 16 BAB and lets the character combine Sweeping Strike with the Hideous Blow Invocation. Warmind psionics will work in any armor that the Warlock can use so it doesn’t nuke item based defenses. Depending on the powers you pick the Psi could also be used for defensive and offensive buffs to make up for the lack of Invocations. The build misses out on Dark Invocations but gets the second best possible blast damage and lots of the other Warlock perks like Imbue Item.
Ranged is trickier. I don’t have a ready suggestion but I would probably stick with daggers or hand axes over a bow. Some feats might synergize well with ranged weapon attacks and the blast. Too bad Hideous Blow can’t be used on ranged attacks.
Personally, I see two kinds of spellcasting prerequisites. One is the normal "must be able to cast X level spells", the other is like the Telflammar Shadowlord's "must be able to cast X spell (specific spell) or its equivalent in spell-like abilities/class abilities". For the TSL, I can see warlock as being a viable starting class. I see no reason Rogue3/WarlockX (whatever level they can get that Flee the Scene invocation) couldn't qualify for the Telflammar Shadowlord. BUT spell-like abilities and spells are different, even if they have the same effects. The DMG makes that clarification and the rules for dispelling (spells cannot counter/dispell spell-like abilities and spell-like abilities cannot counter/dispell spells) seem to lean against the warlock's ever qualifying for PrC's like Spellsword and Eldritch Knight.
This is all made without reading the actual warlock though, and once I finally DO get the opportunity to read through the class I can make my decision (and support it) a lot more easily.
Not all gish though need to be able to cast spells as normal spellcasters do, though. Sang-Drax's Ex-Paladin1/Blackguard10/Nar Demonbinder1/Eldritch Knight7/1 is a solid example, and if the warlock's invocations are THAT similar than they would be as "gish-like" (conceptually) as the TSL, I suppose. I don't consider the TSL to be a gish class though, but the idea is there.
Suel Arcanamach should work pretty well - 3rd level spells in 4 levels. Warlock 8/Suel Arcanamach 4/EK 8 gives 15th level Invocations and +17 BAB if you take the Militia feat.
3 spell levels in 4 levels (with 0 spells at that level) is also what the assassin and TSL get, though. It seems standard for PrCs. The Suel arcanamach isn't a bad gish choice, if casting isn't too critical (since it actually does not require any spellcasting to enter), but it's not a very good one either. If we can find a PrC like these with a full BAB progression, we've got a winner. (Hopes like hell there's one coming up, even a mere 5 level one)
Shadow Mage: Complete Arcane has a few classes with a prerequisite of "Arcane Caster Level X" (Mindbender is a great example). These the warlock qualifies for, no problem at all. The problem is that none of them are gishworthy.
As for my previous Eldritch Knight comment, I see a large inconsistency with that consensus I brought up. By that logic any PrC that uses "+1 caster level", or whatever it's written as, applies to only one class, and everyone's seen cases where it's applied to multiple casting classes before. There doesn't appear to be any restriction in the description of this "+1 caster level" trait that would prevent a player from placing that +1 caster level into several casting classes, so I would rule it as acceptable that the Eldritch Knight be used in the way Maruuk described. 'Course, I'm prone to several house rules anyhow, just my opinion.
So do you advocate RAW or not? :P
Anyway, while that is considerably less damage than I'd figured originally, it proves why the scythe is such a dangerous weapon and makes me curious why it's so often overlooked in favor of the greatsword or falchion.
Check the damage calc tool I posted. I'm pretty sure the greatsword's average damage outdoes the scythe's vs most if not all ACs. Not sure about falchion, the average damage is probably close to the same. Once again, going by inaccurate or best case scenarios usually leads to overrating.
I was thinking ranged, since there is that light armor issue. Need to have a couple Dark Invocations is the biggie.
Even a simple Warlock9/Fighter1/EK10 would suffice for me.
Why not Warlock 16 / Dragonslayer 4?
BAB +16, Dark invocation, Eldritch Blast = 9th level
Or am I missing something?
So do you advocate RAW or not? :P
Not usually, but if pesty players manage to find enormous loopholes using RAI then RAW is pretty fine with me. -cough-Wish/Word-cough-
Check the damage calc tool I posted. I'm pretty sure the greatsword's average damage outdoes the scythe's vs most if not all ACs. Not sure about falchion, the average damage is probably close to the same. Once again, going by inaccurate or best case scenarios usually leads to overrating.
True enough, and same to ninjarabbit who pointed out that most creatures at higher levels are immune (or at least resistant to) critical hits. Sort of makes the Psychic Weapon Master a little less attractive, certainly good for a brief dip though...
This can be accomplished as early as 5th level anyway (with lower critical chance and critical damage mind you) with Concentration 7, Strength 13, Wisdom 13, Greater Psionic Weapon, Psionic Meditation, and Psionic Weapon. Power Attack thrown in too if you want extra punch. Taking the PWM, as you can see, can make for some big hits. Hit once for your first hit, use hustle to gain Psionic Focus again for another good second hit, and afterwards you have your normal attacks. Deep crystal definitely synergizes well but burns a lot of PP real fast if you're not careful (potentially bringing you below the PP reserve needed for the PWM's abilities).
Just wanted to point out that GPW has a BAB req. of +5. If you want to take it at 5th, you'll have to use a fighter wild talent and then you won't have PP to spare for hustle. A PsyWar can take it as his 8th level bonus feat though.
Which reminds me about a question that we're having trouble deciding on at the Psionics forum: If you expend two foci could you add GPW damage twice to the same attack? As for GPW damage multiplying on a crit, extra damage and added damage are not the same thing, so maybe it does multiply after all.
Btw, here's a psi gish build I came up with, don't think I've seen it before:
1: Ranger
2-5: Wilder
6-15: Slayer
16: Elocater
17-20: Wilder
You get +17 BAB, 280 PP, 10 powers (one 9th level) ML 18 and Wild Surge +3 as well as tons of nifty special abilities. I've not thought about the feat and power selection yet, but if the elocater level is a keeper it should work around Spring Attack. Suggestions?
Wouldn't you prefer Sorcerer6 to wizard6 in this case? Turning attempts deal with Charisma, so I would think that focusing on one ability score for multiple benefits would be more useful than splitting focus between two ability scores.
Sorcerous Exorcist
(Militia) Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight10/Sacred Exorcist4
BAB: +16
CL: 19
28-Point Buy: 14, 12, 12, 10, 10, 16
32-Point Buy: 14, 12, 12, 10, 10, 18
Charisma here is used for both primary casting and for turning undead, which helps close the gap between this build and a full cleric in turning since a cleric must split his ability score focus between two scores (Wisdom and Charisma) to be good at this.
Mentioning turning undead was rather a joke than anything else since this ability is granted by the Sacred Exorcist PrC starting at character level 17th (turning damage is based on cleric levels or equivalent).
This build allows a nearly full arcane caster progression (wizard or sorcerer) with 4 attacks at lvl20.
It's a very good idea to go for sorcerer(thanks Shadow Mage) if you want to take advantange of the numerous turning feats that enhance combat capacities (divine might, divine vigor, divine shield...).
Check the damage calc tool I posted. I'm pretty sure the greatsword's average damage outdoes the scythe's vs most if not all ACs. Not sure about falchion, the average damage is probably close to the same. Once again, going by inaccurate or best case scenarios usually leads to overrating.
We already had a long debate about this a while ago, and to paraphrase it: The Falchion and Scythe outperform the Greatsword in terms of damage most of the time. You should be able to find the thread with a quick search.
We already had a long debate about this a while ago, and to paraphrase it: The Falchion and Scythe outperform the Greatsword in terms of damage most of the time. You should be able to find the thread with a quick search.
The early calcs that assume that all critical threats are automatically confirmed support that, but the more recent calcs that take in to account that not all threats are confirmed paint a less simple picture. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=317925
Falchion begins to pass greatsword at +19 damage bonus, +10 with improved crit/keen. So, at higher levels and vs non-critical protected monsters, greatsword is outdone by the falchion.
The calcs on all the threads that I checked assume falchion and scythe equal out with eachother. Going by the damage calc (which agrees with the calcs with falchion vs greatsword and was created by a very mathematically competant man), falchion and scythe actually do not do equal average damage. Under all the circumstances I've checked for so far, falchion outperforms scythe, but evens out with it before flatlining due to too-high AC.
Greatsword even barely outperforms scythe and evens out at higher ACs at +60 damage bonus and improved critical for both weapons. With improved critical, ki critical, and increased multiplier, scythe and greatsword even out across all ACs at +30 damage. Those circumstances are the only ones I've found so far that even begin to favor scythe vs greatsword.
Out of every 20 swings, you should generate 2 potential crits with the Scythe doing an extra 30 damage per crit for a total of 60.
Out of every 20 swings with a Falchion, you should generate 6 potential crits doing an extra 10 damage per crit for a total of 60.
There are 4 things that can affect that total of 60:
The chance of rolling a threat, but not confirming. There is an equal chance of confirmation for both weapons. This affects both weapons equally. If the odds are 50% of confirming, the average becomes 30 for both weapons.
The chance of rolling a threat, but missing. If you need an 18 to hit, the number of potential Falchion crits drops to 3 for a potential of 30, while the Scythe still does 60.
The chance of doing way too much damage. If something has 20 hp left, doing 40 is probably not worthwhile. But that doesn't affect average damage.
Damage Resistance. Against DR 15 as an example, the expected damage would be only 30 total for a Falchion, but 50 for a Scythe. This is only meaningful if the average damage done before the crit is less than the DR period. i.e. probably not likely in 3.5.
Going by the damage calc (which agrees with the calcs with falchion vs greatsword and was created by a very mathematically competant man), falchion and scythe actually do not do equal average damage. Under all the circumstances I've checked for so far, falchion outperforms scythe, but evens out with it before flatlining due to too-high AC.
I was interested in playing a Warmage(CA) /Fighter Gish along the lines of the standard wizard/sorcerer build Fighter 2 / Warmage 4/ Spellsword 4 / EKnight 10, staring play at Level 1. As you can tell I'm new to this but interested and challenged. My fellow players say that it can't be done (a fighting Arcane Caster I mean).
Accessory book access, EbberonCS, CW, CD, CA, UA, MiniHandbook, Oriental Adventures, Dragon Magazines All 3.0+ issues.
Can barrow Dragonlance CS and Draconomicon. No FR access, sorry.
I thought I'd post here seeing as how this is the Gish thread.
[Edit] Sorry I'm working with 28 standard point buy for stats.
How well do Gish perform in small parties say 3 PCs and maybe an NPC Expert?
Theoretically? Perfect. Under the assumption of course every "type" of gish and every spell/feat is chosen with the other party members in mind.
I was interested in playing a Warmage(CA) /Fighter Gish along the lines of the standard wizard/sorcerer build Fighter 2 / Warmage 4/ Spellsword 4 / EKnight 10, staring play at Level 1. As you can tell I'm new to this but interested and challenged. My fellow players say that it can't be done (a fighting Arcane Caster I mean).
If you mean the iconic Fighter2/Primary Caster4/Spellsword5/Eldritch Knight9 then that should work for a warmage, since they apparently kick royall ass as evokers. If your friends say it can't be done then please, eagerly direct them to this-here lil' thread. A character with BAB +18 and Caster Level 15 with a BUNCH of evoker goodies available is literally a walking artillery cannon.
Accessory book access, EbberonCS, CW, CD, CA, UA, MiniHandbook, Oriental Adventures, Dragon Magazines All 3.0+ issues.
Can barrow Dragonlance CS and Draconomicon. No FR access, sorry.
I thought I'd post here seeing as how this is the Gish thread.
[Edit] Sorry I'm working with 28 standard point buy for stats.
Well, not the original gish thread, but it's doing well thanks. ;)
I have a few questions you should answer before we help make a build for you. You wanna be challenged right?
1) What kind of gish do you want? Heavy-weight melee? Light ranged support? Balanced middle-man? There is a big section of different types of gish and their specialties, choose from there what type you wanna be first.
2) What are the other party members? Does it make sense to have a spell-focused gish with a party mage? Surprisingly yes. Does it make sense to have a melee-focused gish with two existing meleeists? No, not really. Look around at what role NEEDS to be filled and base your choice to question #1 on that.
3) How do you want to fight? Do you want to blast away with evoker spells and nuke the crap out of your enemies? You might just be better going full warmage then and keeping full spellcasting. Do you want to tradeoff between arrows and rays? A good archer gish would work. Or do you just want a solid meleeist who is gonna sit there and let Arcane Strike flow freely to buff the crap out of his big-bad keen scythe?
Using the information I've provided nice and neat on the first page, you should be able to safely figure out your desired build type. Once you have the basic idea (IE classes you want, levels, feats, spells, etc.) then we can help with what levels to take what at. This is a character optimization HELP board, not a drive-thru service.
You're doing something incorrectly(or he is). Assume Improved Crit and pretend you roll 10 points of damage - the actual amount is irrelevant because they do the same amount of damage before crit on average:
Out of every 20 swings, you should generate 2 potential crits with the Scythe doing an extra 30 damage per crit for a total of 60.
Out of every 20 swings with a Falchion, you should generate 6 potential crits doing an extra 10 damage per crit for a total of 60.
Thanks for pointing that out! I wonder what the flaw in the algorithm is that causes higher crit rates to be favored over higher crit multipliers.
The chance of rolling a threat, but missing. If you need an 18 to hit, the number of potential Falchion crits drops to 3 for a potential of 30, while the Scythe still does 60.
I did made a mistake earlier by only graphing to the point of breaking even, assuming that the graph stayed that way until flatline.
So I graphed up to flatline, and as you calculated, at the AC range 4 points before it flatlines the falchion does begin to lag when both sides have improved critical. The same happens at 2 points of AC before flatline without improved critical.
However the difference in average damage by the time 18-20s are needed to hit is relatively low. By the time both sides can only hit on, as you said an 18, the chance of a critical threat being confirmed is so minimal - a 2.25% chance, that critical hits add very little average damage. By the time both weapons need a 20 to hit, the chance of landing a critical hit is only 0.25%. With iterative attacks, that factor does add up, but also keep in mind you have the incalcuable factor of wasting damage via overkill. Which of the two is better for higher level play depends on campaign style I guess.
And this is sort of gish related since a psychic weaponmaster gish and which 2handed weapon would be best suited for him was brought up. Might as well clear up any possible misconceptions (including my own!).
Fighter 2 / Paladin 4 / Suel Arcanamach 4 / Spellsword 7 / Eldritch Knight 3
Combat Casting, Iron Will, Arcane Strike, Practiced Spellcaster, Power Attack, Divine Might
+19 BAB, 18/10/10 saves, CL 14, 5th level spells, 35% ignore ASF, Channel spell 4/Day, 4 bonus feats, Divine Grace
The Suel Arcanamach lacks evocation spells but can still use Shadow Evocation [Orb of ???], Reciprocle Gyre, Dispel Magic, Unluck and Slow, to name a few.
Use two weapon fighting to take maximum advantage of Arcane Strike/Divine Might combo.
One problem I can see is that it burns itself out quite quickly, you don't get to many spell slots to use Arcane Strike and Channel spell on. This can be off set somewhat by having a huge charisma, which is used for spells, saves and damage.
With a decent number of bonus feats you could try for some tripping action so he's useful even after all his spells are used up. Flail/Shield/Armour Spikes may be good or Guisarme/Armour Spikes.
What do people think?
Lord Kiwi,
All kinds of goodies:
+16 BAB, 5th level spells, Channel Spell, solid bonuses to saves/Mettle, can wear pretty much any armor he wants. Gets +4 Competence Bonus to attack rolls when using Alter Self that lasts all day, so effectively a +20 BAB at 20th level.
Hm, it's been brought to my attention that Suel Arcanamach is a gish-worthy PrC in a similar manner to the assassin and other PrC's with unique spellcasting progressions. If anybody wouldn't mind much I'd love to see the prerequisites for this one, as I still don't have (and probably won't get) Complete Arcane. I plan to check out more on these this weekened when I have time to hit a bookstore for a few minutes.
BAB +6
Concentration, Jump, Tumble : 4 ranks
Spellcraft : 5 ranks
fluency in a language of an ancient magical land
Combat Casting, Iron Will
proficency in at least four martial or exotic weapons
read a special book (takes a week); or study with someone who has (which takes 4 weeks)
It only gives you one attack with the spell but if you have Improved Combat Expertise you can add your BAB to AC. You'll never hit but that doesn't matter, the main thing is you can still use a blasting spell while having a huge AC.
Warmage 4 / Fighter 2 / Havoc Mage 5 / Spellsword 3 / Eldritch Knight 6
Maximise Spell, Chain Spell, EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Combat Expertise, Hold the Line, +3 more Feats
CL 14, +16 BAB, +16/+5/+13 Saves
You ward people off with your chain. If they get close you Battlecast and boost your AC by 16 and just blast them.
Havoc mage levels need to be spread out throughout the progression so you can always cast all your spells using battle casting.
Lord Kiwi,
1) Havoc Mage - still need to review it but it looks like frequenters of this particular thread (reading back a bit) and of JK's thread enjoyed using it as part of their builds.
2) Suel Arcanamach - sounds like a nice good defensive PrC, especially considering it's prerequisites.
3) Warlock - This should be fairly obvious by now. Even though it sounds sorta weak, I love the concept so far. Invocations sound so cool.
4) Warmage - Sorcerer on steroids? Probably, but I'll find out for myself. It sounds though like this is a class that should be in the Miniatures game, not normal D&D from what other players here have told me about it.
Warmage is very D&D appropriate. It is a War Arcanist. The majority of its spells are for Area Damage. Warmages use Spells like a Fighter uses a Sword... Only over a large area.. So perhaps like a Fighter uses a Sword and the Supreme Cleave ability... I think the underlying drive to quarentine the Warmage is because people know that the Warmage trumphs the other Arcane classes for Martial Mages.
The Gish Caste would mostly be Fighter/Warmages headed towards Fighter 1/Warmage 8/EK 9 if the article were rewritten today and Psionics were left out.
That said, I think that everyone's perception of what is the ideal Martial Mage differs. Some people think 'Bladesingers' (not the PrC, but the idea of using Illusion, Conjuration, and Transmutation) is the way to go and others think it is to have more ways to attack (lots of damage spells).
This is why I regret now using the word Gish because Gish had its own definition for the Githyanki multiclassed Githwarrior/Warlock Caste that used spells for ranged attacks.
...That said, I think that everyone's perception of what is the ideal Martial Mage differs. Some people think 'Bladesingers' (not the PrC, but the idea of using Illusion, Conjuration, and Transmutation) is the way to go and others think it is to have more ways to attack (lots of damage spells).
This is why I regret now using the word Gish because Gish had its own definition for the Githyanki multiclassed Githwarrior/Warlock Caste that used spells for ranged attacks.
Mm, while that is true regarding the technical definition of gish, what else could you quickly and casually call a mage/warrior? 12 characters versus 4 is a big difference. :P I imagine someone would've come up with the idea sooner or later to call mage/warriors "gish", especially considering the number of people who enjoy such builds (and who have enjoyed them since before JK or my own thread) and who already knew the meaning of the word "gish".
Anyway, I like the sound of warmage so far. It's more focused into the sort of spellcasting my sorcerers prefer, and magic when combined with mage/warriors (didn't use the word this time, kudos to me!) tends to be more overt and damage/combat related anyway. There isn't much point in making a Power Attacker or TWFer who uses polymorph and other spells more frequently than he uses his martial abilities.
Any reccomendations for similar classes that don't sacrifice so much spellcasting? Maybe I could play a warforged?Now, if the green star adept had +7 bab and +7 cl, then that MIGHT be alright. Two good saves and relatively high HD would be the only justification for that, but as the adept only has 50% spellcasting progression and 2/3 BAB, it isn't close to worth it. Take a warforged paladin4/sorcerer4/spellsword1/Eldritch Knight10 for +17 BAB and 14 CL, which for an LA +1 construct isn't bad at all.
The Warlock looses out on a few Invocations but his main weapon, the Eldritch Blast gets full progression from GSA.
I see no text to back up that claim. Seems to me he'd lose 5 levels of Eldritch Blast equivalence as well. What makes you say that?
I see no text to back up that claim. Seems to me he'd lose 5 levels of Eldritch Blast equivalence as well. What makes you say that?
I was curious about this as well...if people are treating the warlock's invocation as caster levels (which I disagree with anyhow) for purposes of prestige classes that grant increased caster levels, then this would be no exception unless there was a rule in the GSA that specifically mentioned a warlock gaining full eldritch blast progression...
That's why it works for the Warlock so well.
Take a warforged paladin4/sorcerer4/spellsword1/Eldritch Knight10 for +17 BAB and 14 CL, which for an LA +1 construct isn't bad at all.
Warforged are LA 0, not LA +1. Every new Eberron race is a +0 race, by concious and unanimous design decisions. But the idea still holds.
Thanks for pointing that out. Improved Caster Level (Ex) on the GSA was the option I was missing. I can see your interpretation now.
Spells
1
Lesser Orb spells - ranged touch attacks for a max of 5d8 elemental damage, 5d6 for sonic. No save or SR. Seems like a contender with magic missle.
2
Blades of fire - As a swift (free but limited to one per turn) action, +1d6 fire damage per attack for a single round. Not bad for high attacks.
Fireburst - Max 5d8 damage to all adjacent squares. Sort of like a Gish's whirlwind attack.
Wall of gloom - provides concealment, 6 or less HD creatures must make a will save to pass. Can be formed as a ring or linear wall. Good early wall spell, but loses effectiveness in most cases later on.
3
Nothing here stands out for me over PHB spells =/
4
Burning Blood - This is the caster's worst nightmare. Fort save every round(!) or take 2d8 damage and be limited to a move action. Saving once doesn't halt the effect either! This is very nice.
Otiluke's dispelling screen - creates a wall of dispelling, and suppresses unattended magical items for 1d4 rounds. Good to keep on a scroll to annoy casters and massively buffed or magical item using enemies.
5
Blink, greater - Control your blinking. Added defense and mobility is nice.
Freezing fog - slows down enemies bigtime, limiting targets in it to five foot steps. On your turn anything in the fog makes a reflex save or falls, and even after saving requires a balance check to move (if failure too great, falls anyway).
Fireburst, greater - max 15d8 damage to anything within 10ft of you instead of 5ft. Super gish whirlwind attack!
Mass fireshield - good for supporters
Spiritwall - Deals damage and gives a negative a level for passing through it. Blocks magical effects and grants total concealment against physical attacks. One designated side causes panic. Can be shaped as a sphere, hemisphere, or wall.
6
Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability - Lets you transfer up to 5th lv spells to your familiar to cast. Wouldn't be bad to have a flying familiar to speed up buffing (imbue with mass fireshield for example) or serve as an orbital strike satellite :D
7
Greater Otiluke's dispelling screen - as the lv4 version but +20 on check to dispel/suppress
8
Nothing again
9
Reaving dispel - powerful dispel that lets you take control of the spell you successfully dispel or counter. Take the effect of a buff spell or redirect a harmful spell. Reactive counterspell to steal a timestop!
Superior Invis - no sight, sound, or scent, and can attack.
Some of those spells are situational, but where they are useful they shine. Keeping some on scrolls would be great.
Feats
The sudden metamagic series - allows 1/day use of a specific metamagic feat without preparation or increasing the level of the spell. Extend, silent, still, and widen all have no prerequisites, not even the normal version of the feat. Maximize and empower spell only has 'any metamagic feat' as a prereq! Quicken requires quicken spell and all the sudden metamagics.
I probably missed some things, so let's see more good stuff from CA!
There is an item called wand sheath, however, that lets a warforged stick a wand in his arm. Coupled with 2 wand fighting, and the warforged can blast away with free hands. 2 wands, 2 potions. All at the same time?
Also spell channel adds a whole new dimension to the power level of some of these spells. Freezing fog, spirit wall and defenstrating sphere are all great spell for this ability.
Martial Gish:
Monk 2/Fighter 2/Hexblade 3/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Suel Arcanamach 4/Spellsword 3/EK 5.
+18 BAB, an extra 7 combat feats, great saves, mettle and evasion in light armor.
Wisdom is a major league dump stat. Sure, at 20th level, you're not as good a caster - but you won't fail saves either and it covers the party's need for a primary melee expert. He wears Leather Armor or Masterwork Studded Leather at levels 1 and 2.
End saves = 17/10/14
Great charisma synergy too.
Check it. BAB +16, 6th level bard spells, 8th level druid spells, no problems whatsoever in light metal armor, lvl 14 bardic knowledge and bardic music, evasion, no multiclassing problems whatsofreakingever.
Snowflake Wardance leaps to mind, as does Two-Weapon Fighting with Arcane Strike.
Oh, and as I've yet to purchase any new books, those of you with Complete Arcane (now that it's been out a while)/Adventurer/etc., basically all the newer books, is there anything that's more appropriate for good fighter/mage use? I'd love to see some new ideas, and that Fochluchan Lyrist just damn annoys me with the absurdity of such a class (being so far behind everyone for so many levels for such marginal benefits just isn't worth it). I thought about the Chameleon for a while, but I just don't see much potential with that PrC. Too complicated fo rme.
Anyway, thanks carnivor for the bump, anybody else wish to add new info for me to slap up here?
However, psigishes will like Races of Destiny's (arguably breakable) psionic powers. A lot of the spells in the Complete Arcane offer more to gishes than the PrCs (Persistent Golem Strike = who says I can't Sneak Attack constructs?).Hey s m, I helped with your Ghostwalker update, can you help with my variant ranger? See sig.
Wizard 2/Swashbuckler 3/Ronin 1/Daggerspell Mage 10/Eldritch Knight 4
or
Sorcerer 2/Hexblade 3/Ronin 1/Daggerspell Mage 10/Eldritch Knight 4
both with Practiced Spellcaster.
Both have +16 BAB at level 20, a few dice of Sneak Attack for some extra damage, and get around the primary failing of the gish -- they can be both a fighter and a mage AT THE SAME TIME.
Complete Arcane also did provide the Suel Arcanamach, which could be useful in some cases due to its slightly accelerated casting progression and medium BAB.
Levels 1-2 Combat Focus(spells not really good enough at this point)
Levels 3-6 Divine or Arcane Focus, possibly Combat Focus
Levels 7-10 Combat and either Divine or Arcane Focus
Once you come to that conclusion, it really does become pretty simple to tack onto most skilled fighter builds.
I thought about the Chameleon for a while, but I just don't see much potential with that PrC. Too complicated fo rme.
I'd love to see some new ideas, and that Fochluchan Lyrist just damn annoys me with the absurdity of such a class (being so far behind everyone for so many levels for such marginal benefits just isn't worth it).
Not really true. You it depends if you can make the prerequisites stack properly.
Ranger 4 / Bard 3 / Master Thrower 3 / Fochluchan Lyrist 10
+19 BAB, level 5 bard spells, level 4 ranger spells, good at throwing things
Take the feat to add strength to throwing attacks and play an illumian to get Strength as your spell casting statistics and you have single attribute dependancy, decent fighting ability and a reasonable range of spells.
I don't know if level 5 spells at level 20 is enough casting for a gish but it doesn't really get weak at any point.
Lord Kiwi,
Ranger 4 / Bard 3 / Master Thrower 3 / Fochluchan Lyrist 10
+19 BAB, level 5 bard spells, level 4 ranger spells, good at throwing things
Take the feat to add strength to throwing attacks and play an illumian to get Strength as your spell casting statistics and you have single attribute dependancy, decent fighting ability and a reasonable range of spells.
I don't know if level 5 spells at level 20 is enough casting for a gish but it doesn't really get weak at any point.
Lord Kiwi,
The problem is this doesn't qualify for the Lyrist. You must take one level of druid to meet the lanugage (Druidic) requirement, something I also overlooked in my original assessment of the PrC. The two requirements that make the class hardest to meet are the perform ranks (13, I believe), and the ability to speak Druidic (meaning at least one level of druid). Even then, by the time you can take the PrC you're so far behind in all of your casting classes and BAB (that happens when multiclassing a pair of spell/magic-focused, medium-BAB classes) that you're not much use to the party. Now, given the choice I think Bard4/Druid4/Ranger2 might be effective if you can find a way to meet the perform requirement, as this would yield a total BAB +18 (not so bad) and Caster Levels 14 and 14, but this would be a more combat-oriented gish than a spell one.
Methinks the inherent "triple threat" of the Lyrist is its biggest downfall. It focuses so much on late-level combat that it seems to be used primarily for late-level campaigns/adventures, forgetting the "road to get there" so to speak. I've got a lot of respect for the Bard6/Druid4 or Bard4/Druid6 or Bard4/Druid4/Ranger2 that makes it TO Fochluchan Lyrist, much less THROUGH. After all, it's pretty hard to be useful to the party when your focus is so thoroughly divided (and you suffer so badly from MAD).
And yes RadicalTaoist, I'll check out the ranger tonight. I kinda like the 3.5 ranger though...
Bard 7/Master Thrower 2/Druid 1/Sublime Chord 1/FL 9.
The advantage of it is that you can take Bard from levels 1-7. So you can be focused. Master Thrower also has Perform skill, which helps for the FL requirements.
There's a little cross-classing involved with Knowledge(Arcane), but at least the levels of complete suck are almost completely minimized - and you're likely to want most of the Master Thrower requirements anyway. Then you get Sublime Chord, which fixes the caster problems.
9th level Arcane, 5th level Divine, +16 BAB, lots of skills, and 16 levels of Bard Music/Knowledge.
The problem is this doesn't qualify for the Lyrist. You must take one level of druid to meet the lanugage (Druidic) requirementMethinks the inherent "triple threat" of the Lyrist is its biggest downfall. It focuses so much on late-level combat that it seems to be used primarily for late-level campaigns/adventures.
Pyro-Chameleon Gish
Swashbuckler 3/ Ranger 2/ Pyrokinetisist 8/ Chameleon 8
BAB +16
Int to Damage and 4d6 weapon afire
at will 8d6 ranged touch attack(fire)
5th lvl Arcane and Divine Spells
16th caster lvl(20th with practiced caster)
good skills
it is even better when you add Sanctify Spell-like(Psi-like) ability(or is it consecrate spl-like, i dont remember), ........that way 1/2 of the fire damage is holy and will affect creatures immune or resistant to Fire.
the base looks like this:
Ranger 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Chameleon 10/
ADD
Shou disciple 5.....Zen Melee Chameleon
Reaping Mauler 5.......Grapple master Chameleon
Invisible Blade 5....... Feint/Bluff master Chameleon
Master Thrower 5 .....Swarm of thrown objects Chameleon
All of these builds have the same basic stats:
BAB+17
Int to damage
6th lvl Arcane and Divine Spells... any of choice
20th Lvl Caster
good skills and feats
easy to play
just a side note:
with the combat focus up and running the ATTACK Bonus is +21 .....even in an Antimagic field, this does not even count attributes!
:D
1. Fighter | Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack
2. Bard
3. Bard | Practiced Spellcaster
4. Bard
5. Bard
6. Spellsword | Obtain Familiar
7. Spellsword | Spirited Charge
8. Spellsword
9. Spellsword | Improved Familiar
10. Spellsword
11. Sublime Chord
12. Sublime Chord | Arcane Strike
13. Eldritch Knight | Power Attack or Snowflake Wardance
14. Eldritch Knight
15. Eldritch Knight | Improved Sunder or Lyric Spell
16. Eldritch Knight
17. Eldritch Knight
18. Eldritch Knight | Combat Brute or another feat
19. Eldritch Knight
20. Eldritch Knight
Caster Level: 16 (20)
Base Attack Bonus: + 18 / + 13 / + 8 / + 3
Tactics: get a Winter Wolf familiar and ride it. Expeditous Retreat, Starmantle + Ring of Evasion and other buff spells with Share Spells help here.
Actually, the Obtain Familiar feat is VERY powerful, because it's based upon all of your caster classes.
If you are facing a caster, just ride-by attack him channeling an antimagic field.
If you are facing an enemy who wields a weapon, arcane-strike-ride-by him, sundering his weapon and hitting him pretty bad.
Background: Sulring Arienal is the son of an elven princess from a northern realm and the north wind. King Furion commanded his daugther Iyanna to leave the child to die in the frostfell: he couldn't know about the child's real father, so he thought she had a relationship with a common.
The north wind asked a wolf, which he called Laerea from then, to raise the child until he was old enough to join a bardic school, in which he would have learnt the ways of the song.
When he'd become old enough, the north wind would let Sulring summon Laerea to help him in his journey to retake his rightful place as an elf of both royal and divine ancestry.
1. Bard | Point Blank Shot
2. Bard
3. Bard | Precise Shot
4. Bard
5. Bard
6. Bard | Weapon Focus (longbow)
7. Bard
8. Bard
9. Arcane Archer | Lyric Spell or Rapid Shot
10. Arcane Archer
11. Sublime Chord
12. Sublime Chord | Snowflake Wardance or Many Shot
13. Eldritch Knight | Weapon Finesse
14. Eldritch Knight
15. Eldritch Knight | Arcane Strike
16. Eldritch Knight
17. Eldritch Knight
18. Eldritch Knight | Practiced Spellcaster
19. Eldritch Knight
20. Eldritch Knight
Caster Level: 17 (20)
Base Attack Bonus: + 17 / + 12 / + 7 / + 2
Tactics: against casters, Imbue Arrow with Antimagic Field.
Against melee opponents who wield weapons... sunder! You'll destroy the weapon for sure if you put some strong area spell in the Imbued Arrow, and you'll hit the wielder at the same time too (it's an area spell).
Background: no background yet, I still have to think about it.
I'd like suggestions to improve the feat progressions, if possible, and maybe some rating! :P
bard7/fighter1/soldier of light 2/SC2/Spellsword1/EK7 would be good as a more melee-slanted gish, with the nice combo of divine might + snowflake wardance + arcane strike, etc. I'm not sure it'd be as useful to most parties as the arcane archer variety, though. Arcane strike isn't quite as good for sublime gish as it is for sorceror gish, since you have fewer spellslots to spend.
2. Paladin
3. Monk
4. Bard
5. Sorcerer
6. Sorcerer | Ascetic Mage
7. Sorcerer
8. Sorcerer
9. Spellsword
10. Dragonslayer
11. Sublime Chord
12. Sublime Chord
13. Eldritch Knight
14. Eldritch Knight
15. Eldritch Knight
16. Eldritch Knight
17. Eldritch Knight
18. Eldritch Knight
19. Eldritch Knight
20. Eldritch Knight
BAB: +15
CL: 15 (ninth level spells, CL 19 with Practiced Spellcaster, 20 with Ioun Stone)
Cha to AC
Cha to Saves
If someone makes it to BAB +16 and CL 16 and manages to optimize the Ascetic feats, that would be great.
bard7/fighter1/soldier of light 2/SC2/Spellsword1/EK7 would be good as a more melee-slanted gish, with the nice combo of divine might + snowflake wardance + arcane strike, etc.
Actually, it had been done before a few pages ago, but without the fighter level. Note that Soldier Of Light gives armor proficiency, and Sublime Chord can cast spells in light armor with no ASF anyway, and, using Snowflake Wardance, you must use light or no armor. So, the Spellsword would be mostly for better saves than EK 8.
A Bard 8/Soldier Of Light 2/Sublime Chord 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 7 has the same BAB, with one less feat, one more spellcaster level, better skills, and +1 Inspire Courage.
2. Sorcerer
3. Monk | Stunning Fist, Ascetic Mage
4. Monk | Combat Reflexes
5. Monk
6. Paladin | Ascetic Knight
7. Enlightened Fist
8. Enlightened Fist
9. Enlightened Fist | Practiced Spellcaster
10. Enlightened Fist
11. Enlightened Fist
12. Enlightened Fist | Empower Spell or Maximize Spell
13. Enlightened Fist
14. Enlightened Fist
15. Monk
16. Eldritch Knight | Stunning Fist
17. Eldritch Knight
18. Eldritch Knight | Rapid Stunning
19. Eldritch Knight
20. Eldritch Knight
BAB: + 16
Caster Level: 12 (16 with Practiced Spellcaster)
Unarmed Damage: 2d6 (2d8 with a Monk Belt)
Cha to Saves
Cha to AC
AC +2
Evasion
Ki Strike (magic)
Fist of Energy (bleah)
Arcane Fist
Arcane Rejuvenation (bleah)
Fist of Energy (Burst) (bleah)
Hold Ray (Hooray!)
I think this one is viable, even with epic levels in mind (otherwise I wouldn't have struggled so much to have +16 BAB).
Take Maximize Spell if you don't have access to the Gauntlets of the Blood Lord, otherwise take Empower.
Heal with Maximized Vampiric Touch, paralyze with Maximized Shivering Touch (Empower them if you get Maximize for free from the Gauntlets), damage them with... well, I dunno any ray or touch spells that deals massive damage at level 6 or lower.
Hope there is a good crafter in your party, because two rings of Arcane Might and a Ioun stone could help A LOT.
Actually, it had been done before a few pages ago, but without the fighter level. Note that Soldier Of Light gives armor proficiency, and Sublime Chord can cast spells in light armor with no ASF anyway, and, using Snowflake Wardance, you must use light or no armor. So, the Spellsword would be mostly for better saves than EK 8.
A Bard 8/Soldier Of Light 2/Sublime Chord 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 7 has the same BAB, with one less feat, one more spellcaster level, better skills, and +1 Inspire Courage.
Err...I just searched the thread for "sol" and found no builds with soldier of light in them. If you found the build you spoke of in this thread, please point me to the post. I added the fighter level because, as said in my previous post, you can still get IC + 2 at level 7 with a harmony instrument. Taking practiced spellcaster nets you the same caster level for sublime chord as it would if you were bard8 and had taken the feat. Of course, the better skills are undeniably helpful for the high reqs of SC, but at the same time better HP and an extra feat adds some flexibility for a melee gish that has a 4 feat attack combo as part of the build. The SS level wasn't for extra armor use, as 10% won't get you above light armor anyway. It was as you said, for better saves, but also for slightly better HP.
Btw, on the paladin2/monk2/bard1... build, is the UA variant paladin being used? Bards and paladins have conflicting alignments, and even then, the paladin of freedom hates any [compulsion] type spells or abilities being used. It's against their moral code =/
Err...I just searched the thread for "sol" and found no builds with soldier of light in them. If you found the build you spoke of in this thread, please point me to the post. I added the fighter level because, as said in my previous post, you can still get IC + 2 at level 7 with a harmony instrument. Taking practiced spellcaster nets you the same caster level for sublime chord as it would if you were bard8 and had taken the feat. Of course, the better skills are undeniably helpful for the high reqs of SC, but at the same time better HP and an extra feat adds some flexibility for a melee gish that has a 4 feat attack combo as part of the build. The SS level wasn't for extra armor use, as 10% won't get you above light armor anyway. It was as you said, for better saves, but also for slightly better HP.
Btw, on the paladin2/monk2/bard1... build, is the UA variant paladin being used? Bards and paladins have conflicting alignments, and even then, the paladin of freedom hates any [compulsion] type spells or abilities being used. It's against their moral code =/
PoF for the first, PoT for the second
On the arcane archer build, do you think it may be better to drop weapon finesse for earlier practiced spellcaster and lyric spell? Same goes with arcane strike. After all, the strengths of the build are archery and spells. If an enemy closes, you can have a spell, scroll, and/or contingency ready for your escape the way most spellcasters do - a luxury pure archers can't so easily afford.
The feat progression could be:
1. Point Blank Shot
3. Precise Shot
6. Weapon Focus (longbow)
9. Lyric Spell
12. Practiced Spellcaster
13. Rapid Shot
15. Manyshot
18. FEAT
The 18th level feat could be any archery feat, like improved rapid shot or ranged disarm/pin/sunder. Or you could drop manyshot and go for some casting feats. Whichever works best.
Kenshi, there's a feat in CV that allows you to multiclass between Paladin and Bard, keeping your lawful alignment. I think it's called Devoted Performer. I don't really think it's worthy, as your Smite Evil won't be that great anyway with just a few levels of bard. It's possible to do it, though.
I'd drop weapon focus for earlier Improved Rapid Shot.
Kenshi, there's a feat in CV that allows you to multiclass between Paladin and Bard, keeping your lawful alignment. I think it's called Devoted Performer. I don't really think it's worthy, as your Smite Evil won't be that great anyway with just a few levels of bard. It's possible to do it, though.
Why would I have to take Weapon Focus if it wasn't a pre-requisite for the Arcane Archer?
Kenshi, there's a feat in CV that allows you to multiclass between Paladin and Bard, keeping your lawful alignment. I think it's called Devoted Performer.
Cool. I still need to check out that book -_- Definetly a good option for good-aligned paladin/bards, since the PoF's moral code really clashes with mid to high level bard spells/abilities.
1. Sorcerer | True Believer (Hextor) or other
2. Sorcerer
3. Monk | Stunning Fist, Ascetic Mage
4. Monk | Combat Reflexes
5. Monk.
Why would I have to take Weapon Focus if it wasn't a pre-requisite for the Arcane Archer?
Yeah, you're right. How fool of me.
1. Sorcerer | True Believer (Hextor) or other
2. Sorcerer
3. Monk | Stunning Fist, Ascetic Mage
4. Monk | Combat Reflexes
5. Monk
6. Paladin | Ascetic Knight
7. Enlightened Fist
Oh, and as I've yet to purchase any new books, those of you with Complete Arcane (now that it's been out a while)/Adventurer/etc., basically all the newer books, is there anything that's more appropriate for good fighter/mage use?
I'm fiddling around with a build that involves Warmage. I'll let you know how it goes.
Enlightened Fist requires caster level 3rd, not 5th
Simply ignore it.
Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 3/Daggerspell Mage 2/Spellsword 1/Daggerspell Mage 3-10/Arcane Trickster 4.
Not sure how it'd work out, but you'd have the -15% arcane spell failure chance, I believe +6d6 sneak attack, and with practices spell caster, still cast well. Your BAB would suffer some though, which kind of sucks.
Also, remember that high Sneak Attack builds tend to have lower base attack bonuses. That means that while they can still be more combat oriented, they'd have to fight more like a rogue than a fighter-type. Namely this involves summoning critters to set up flanks, flanking with allies, buffing allies while throwing daggers from behind the "front line", and so on.
BAB +14 (fractional only)
Sneak Attack +7d6
Caster Level 16th
It's not what we could call a Triple Threat, but a decent rogue/wizard nonetheless.
Paladin2/Sorc2/Human Paragon3/Spellsword5/EK4/Sacred Exorcist4
BAB 17 CL 14
Pretty much an average gish build, but gets some goodies at the end at the cost of 1 BAB. Worth it imo. Open feat selection and 3 bonus feats to toss around.
Human
Paladin2/Bard4/Spellsword3/Dragonslayer 1/SC2/Sacred Exorcist8
BAB 16 CL 17 (20), + lv9 spells and that 10th level of sublime chord spell progression
Feats
1 Devoted performer, dodge
3 power attack
6 practiced spellcaster
8 iron will
9 snowflake wardance
12 arcane strike
15 Divine Might
18 FEAT
Not much of a tactical combatant, more of a secondary tank/damage dealer that uses a two-hander. Still, good HD, lots of goodies and CHA related abilities.
Or for less tanky more flexibility,
Human
Bard7/SoL2/Fighter1/SC2/SE8
BAB 15, CL 17, once again full SC progression
Feats
1. FEAT (TWF), FEAT (Power attack)
3. FEAT
6. Snowflake Wardance
9. FEAT (Divine Might)
10. FEAT (ITWF)
12. Arcane Strike
15. FEAT (GTWF)
18. FEAT (Practiced spellcaster?)
BAB 15 is a little bummer, and the HD is a little worse. But, it's less feat and alignment intensive, has more skills, and more music. You could go songs + archery instead, but I like TWF with the combo of doom - 6 attacks at -2/-7/-12 isn't bad compared to 4 at -0/-5/-10/-15, with all the bonuses you'll have on yourself. That method probably has better damage output, though you'll burn through spellslots faster, and you'll have fewer HP to work with.
Edit: lol, I just took a look at the sublime compilation thread for the first time, and saw acvar's bard8/SoL2/SC2/SS1/EK7 revision of Sang-Drax's build. No wonder you got in such a hissy fit :p
I swear to you though, I thought of the build on my own and it was purely coincidental that I posted it here without mentioning either of your names. Awhile back I made a bard-SC-gish build in a party optimization thread with fighter instead of SoL levels (with some help from mommy was an orc). After getting deities and demigods, I saw how nice two SoL levels are, but didn't bother go to back many pages and edit on the dead thread. So, when I responded to Rod's request for suggestions, I felt it a good time to bring it up. Had I seen your build before, I would have /quoted it or said you guys came up with the build first, as I have with other people in this thread and others.
Myrridin, would you mind posting that in more detail? I'm kinda interested in this daggerspell mage I keep hearing about (Complete Adventurer?).
Also, remember that high Sneak Attack builds tend to have lower base attack bonuses. That means that while they can still be more combat oriented, they'd have to fight more like a rogue than a fighter-type. Namely this involves summoning critters to set up flanks, flanking with allies, buffing allies while throwing daggers from behind the "front line", and so on.
Sure, I was actually a little off on the above, so this will be a slightly revised one...ie, it meets the prereqs.
1 - Rogue - TWF (+1 feat if you're human)
2 - Fighter - Weapon Focus (Dagger), BAB +1
3 - Wizard - Practiced Spellcaster
4 - Wizard, BAB +1
5 - Wizard
6 - Daggerspell Mage
7 - Daggerspell Mage, BAB +1
8 - Daggerspell Mage, BAB +1
9 - Spellsword, BAB +1, Arcane Spell Failure reduced 10%
10 - Daggerspell Mage, BAB +1
11 - Daggerspell Mage
12 - Daggerspell Mage, BAB +1
13 - Daggerspell Mage, BAB +1
14 - Daggerspell Mage, BAB +1
15 - Daggerspell Mage
16 - Daggerspell Mage, BAB +1
At that point you're sitting at BAB +10, Sneak Attack +4d6, you have all sorts of dagger related goodies to go with as well. If you want more sneak attack, you then go:
17 - Arcane Trickster
18 - Arcane Trickster
19 - Arcane Trickster
20 - Arcane Trickster
Giving you +6d6 Sneak Attack, Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/day, and Ranged Legerdemain 1/day. Your BAB is only +12 at that point. Your saves are Fort: +9, Ref: +14, Will: +16. Caster level is 17 (20 with Practiced Spellcaster)
If you want more BAB, you could go:
17 - Eldritch Knight
18 - Eldritch Knight
19 - Eldritch Knight
20 - Eldritch Knight
Giving you +4d6 Sneak Attack, BAB +14, Fort: +12, Ref: +11, Will: +13, Caster Level 16 (20 with Practiced Spellcaster).
Neither one are very feat intensive builds, in fact you only need 2 feats to qualify for Daggerspell Mage, and then the rest are free. I suppose you could throw in a level of Dragonslayer if you wanted +1 BAB, +1 CL and the added bonuses that come from being one.
It can be mixed with the thug variant of the fighter, too--which I find advisable, as you don't have a first-level bonus feat to lose if you also take the sneak attack variant (but as it says in the book, they can be mixed anyway), so all you really lose out on is medium and heavy armour proficiency in exchange for some extra class skills and two more skill points per level.
I do wonder about mixing in three swashbuckler levels. Between free Weapon Finesse and Insightful Strike, swashbuckler synergizes beautifully with two-light-weapon wielding Int-heavy fighting styles. Swashbuckler 3/thug 1/wizard 1/daggerspell mage 10/eldritch knight 5 (taking that wizard level at 3rd instead of 5th, actually, so Practiced Spellcaster can be snuck in there to get a caster level of 5 by 5th) nets some +16 BAB (woo!), +12/+10/+11 (including Grace +1) saves, +4d6 (or +5d6? I forget) sneak attack, spellcasting/caster level 14/18, a few odd bonus feats, the exquisite Insightful Strike, average base HP of about 80, and a base of 100 SP before whatever juicy Int mod. The facts that your base class levels are 3/1/1 with swashbuckler at the top and no race has swashbuckler as a favoured class mean that you're going to need to be human, half-elf, illumian, or another race with "Any" for a favoured class. If you go human, Able Learner wouldn't be a half-bad feat, since you're going to have class skills going all over the place and your SP will likely be pretty juicy, too--liable to break 200 if you crank your Int. If you were to go Illumian, you could take the rune word combination that lets you leave a 1st- or 2nd-level spell slot empty in order to get a constant +1 or +2 bonus to sneak attack rolls.
Of course, the downside of the above build is that you get no trapfinding. Ditching the level of thug for a level of rogue or such costs one BAB and therefore your fourth iterative attack. Ergo, you will not be able to serve one of the primary functions of the rogue, so you may need to sacrifice that fourth iterative attack if your DM uses traps with any regularity and no one else in your group has trapfinding.
~Belladonna Knight
Shugenja 4 / Paladin 4 / Fist of Raziel 10 / Shugenja 2
BAB +17, 1st-level paladin spells, 15th-level shugenja spells (8th level), caster level 15 (19 w/ feat) and a whole lot of synergy.
Or swap Shugenja 2 for Hospitaler 2, trading one caster level for one BAB, a feat, and a bit more lay on hands.
As if divine spellcasters weren't powerful enough. Sayin'.
Warmage 8/Orc Paragon 1/Hexer 10/Spellsword 1
Ends up CL 19, BAB +16
Take the level of Orc Paragon early on, that lets you get the necessary Survival ranks for Hexer. Take Southern Magician at 6 or 9 to get the divine lightning bolt requirement. Hexer gives you full BAB and casting, and adds five Sor/Wiz spells to your Warmage spells known - very nice. Fill it out with staples like Flight and Haste. The level of Spellsword can be substituted out for any other +1 BAB/+1 casting class - Warmage has already given you immunity to ASF in mithril full plate or lighter, it's just nice because it has no significant prereqs.
Thoughts?
--Impeesa--
I've got something I'd like to get a few opinions on, and this looks like the best place to put it..
Warmage 8/Orc Paragon 1/Hexer 10/Spellsword 1
Ends up CL 19, BAB +16
Take the level of Orc Paragon early on, that lets you get the necessary Survival ranks for Hexer. Take Southern Magician at 6 or 9 to get the divine lightning bolt requirement. Hexer gives you full BAB and casting, and adds five Sor/Wiz spells to your Warmage spells known - very nice. Fill it out with staples like Flight and Haste. The level of Spellsword can be substituted out for any other +1 BAB/+1 casting class - Warmage has already given you immunity to ASF in mithril full plate or lighter, it's just nice because it has no significant prereqs.
Thoughts?
--Impeesa--
You, my friend, want to look at the Dragonslayer in the Draconomicon.
--Impeesa--
No I don't. ;) Two feats blown on Dodge and Iron Will, for what gain? Fear immunity? :P
--Impeesa--
A looooot of people laugh at that until they actually have to fight a dragon...that or I just have horrible luck in fighting dragons...
No I don't. ;) Two feats blown on Dodge and Iron Will, for what gain? Fear immunity? :P
--Impeesa--
And a better hit die, and a non redundant class feature.:P
Besides, Dodge leads to Karmic Strike, and Karmic Strike leads to more mileage for your Arcane Strikes.
--Impeesa--
Warlock 7/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 1
Must be elf or half-elf, but gets +18 BAB and 9th level spells. I haven't decided what feats to take(besides prereqs), or what order to take the levels in.
Rurik Fireaxe
Dwarven Azz Kicker
Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Runesmith 2/Eldritch Knight 10/Spell Sword 1
Hit Dice: 1d10+6d4+2d6+10d6+1d8+80 (+3 CON/level + 20 Imp Toughness)=147 hp
Base Attack Bonus: +16/+11/+6/+1
Saves: 12/5/13
Wizard Caster: 18
Runesmith Requires: Dwarf; Concentration (5); Craft - stoneworking (8); Armor Proficiency (heavy); Scribe Scroll; able to cast 1st-level arcane spells
Eldritch Knight Requires: martial weapon proficiency (all); able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells
Spell Sword Requires: ? (but I'm pretty sure we got it covered by level 20)
Attribute Distribution
Str: 14 Dex: 12 Con: 15 Int: 15 Wis: 10 Cha: 6
(includes racial adjustments)
Str: 14 Dex: 12 Con: 16 Int: 19 Wis: 10 Cha: 6
(at 20th level)
Dwarf
1 Wiz 1: Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar (weasel: +2 Reflex), Power Attack
(specialtist wizard: transmutation; denied: enchantment/necromancy)
2 Wiz 2
3 Wiz 3: energy substitution (cold)
4 Wiz 4: +1 CON
5 Wiz 4/Ftr 1: weapon focus (great sword)
[probably would substitute Lightning Reflexes if I had it to all over again]
6 Wiz 4/Ftr 1/Run 1: rune magic; craft magical arms/armor
7 Wiz 4/Ftr 1/Run 2: stonecraft expertise
8 Wiz 5/Ftr 1/Run 2: extend spell; +1 INT
9 Wiz 6/Ftr 1/Run 2: improved toughness
10 Wiz 6/Ftr 1/Run 2/EK 1: cleave
11 Wiz 6/Ftr 1/Run 2/EK 2
12 Wiz 6/Ftr 1/Run 2/EK 3: craft wand; +1 INT
13 Wiz 6/Ftr 1/Run 2/EK 4
14 Wiz 6/Ftr 1/Run 2/EK 5
15 Wiz 6/Ftr 1/Run 2/EK 6: quicken spell
16 Wiz 6/Ftr 1/Run 2/EK 7: +1 INT
17 Wiz 6/Ftr 1/Run 2/EK 8
18 Wiz 6/Ftr 1/Run 2/EK 9: persistent spell
19 Wiz 6/Ftr 1/Run 2/EK 10
20 Wiz 6/Ftr 1/Run 2/EK 10/SS 1: ignore ASF 10% (redundant); +1 INT
I am playing this character now (with slightly inflated ability scores) at level 8 as of this past weekend. A little Enlarge Person to make weapons and armor fit new form and then Polymorph (Annis [hag]) makes for a terrifying melee critter at 8th level:
AC: 30 (10 + 9 [+1 full plate] + 1 [dex] + 10 [Annis, natural armor])
+13 melee +1 large greatsword (3d6+11)
or power attack
+9 melee +1 large greatsword (3d6+19)
add bull's strength from the party cleric
+11 melee +1 large greatsword (3d6+22).
I know, weapon focus is sub-optimal, but it worked for me at the moment.
This character is also the party wizard (which takes away some of my melee fun when I have to cast battle-field control spells and such), thus the reach for super high caster level.
It sure is fun to bash critters with a large greatsword and then throw a fireball at them as they're running away!
As for the slayer comment, that's very true Kuroi Kenshi. To the point that an Elan Ranger4 qualifies to pick up its first prestige class at fifth level. Hell, the ultimate anti-caster could be seen as an elan ranger4/slayer10/occult slayer4/peerless archer2 (final saves +8/+8/+15, full BAB, full slayer/occult slayer goodies, close-combat shot, ranged precision +1d8). Hunt on, my friend.
Or to make this more "gish" appropriate, how about a more casting related build, hm?
Human psychic warrior2/ranger4/slayer10/occult slayer2/peerless archer2 (not in this order). This would have +19 for base attack bonus, provide a psychic warrior manifester level of 11, great saves (+10/+10/+14), close combat shot, vicious strike (ready ranged shots whenever a caster/manifester casts or manifests a spell/power), ranged precision +1d8 (stackable with vicious strike?), and full anti-manifester gooodness from the slayer. His initiative is gonna rock, having Improved Initiative and being a dedicated archer. If the character's smart, he can simply ignore manifesting (aside from a few useful buffs every now and then) and simply use his power point reserve as a base for Fell Shot, making his ranged attacks even cooler.
I'd rather go plain Human Paragon...
Human Paragon 3/Wizard 2/Fighter 1/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 5/Spellguard Of Silverymoon 4
BAB +16, Caster Level 15th; lots of bonus feats (2 metamagic from Spellguard, 3 bonus fighter feats, 1 from human paragon); Channel Spell, Spellguard goodies; -20% ASF. Any 4-level spellcasting PrC that grants bonus metamagic feats should work, actually. You may also go:
Human Paragon 3/Wizard 2/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 9/Raumathari Battlemage 4 for BAB +17, CL 17th (up to 21st with Practiced Spellcaster + Sword Focus), limited Channel Spell from RB.
For me, these are the best non-dwarf non-sublime chord Gish builds around.
Sorry if these builds have been posted earlier, but this thread is so goddam long...
What do you guys think of the Arcane Disciple Feat for the Gish builds? Its from Complete Divine and lets you add your Diety's domain spells to your spell list. You can only cast them once a day however. Some of those domain spells would be great for a Gish to have, even if only once a day. Especially if you use the Warmage as the base caster class for your build. Strength Domain gives you Stoneskin, Enlarge Person, Righteous Might, Bull's Strength, and Magic Vestment at lower levels as well as Bigby's line at higher levels. The War Domain has Divine Power as well as the Power Word line at higher levels. I'm sure other domains have great benefits as well.
Do you think this is worth a feat or two to be able to cast these spells once a day? Some could really turn the tide of a tough battle. Think of a polymorphed or Tenser'd Gish who casts Righteous might and/or divine power.
EDIT: changed complete Arcane to Complete Divine and fixed a typo or two.
Hope that helps.
The feats ive gotten so far are: Power Attack, Cleave, Dodge, Iron Will, Arcane Strike, Ancestral Relic, Luck of Heroes, and Practiced Sepllcaster. Keep in mind we do use the Flaw rule so ive got more feats that someone without that rule would have. Also the character is a human. I know a couple of those feats might be sub-optimal, but there is an element of roleplaying going on as well. That is why they are in there. I've got five feats left. i will need to pick up another Practiced Spellcaster somewhere, and at least one fo those three feats is a fighter bonus feat from Eldritch Knight. That gives me three feat to play around with. I'd like to get myself some more spells other than pure offensive magic. Any thoughts on if i could do this without hurting my character too much? Or what to do if its possible/not possible?
Well, if you have the requisite Wisdom score (13+ I assume?) then why not add a couple Arcane Disciples? I could see the warmage benefitting most of all of the arcane casters; add some combination of Healing, Protection, and War and stick with tactical melee (reach if possible, big ol' sword up close) and you should be good. Knock-down from Sword and Fist is a great feat to look at, but it would require Improved Trip, which requires Combat Expertise.
I'm certainly not an expert, but this is what I personally would do for feats.
Human Warmage4/Fighter2/Spellsword1/Dragonslayer2 + 2 flaws
1 Ftr- Ancestral Relic, Arcane Disciple (Protection), Combat Expertise, Iron Will, Luck of Heroes
2 War-
3 Ftr- Improved Trip, Power Attack
4 War-
5 War-
6 War- Knock-Down
7 SS-
8 DS-
9 DS- Arcane Strike
Next in line: Practiced Spellcaster, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Strike, and Extra Spell (vampiric touch). The last three are the more important "power" feats, as stunning is infinitely useful against susceptable foes and is a great conduit for touch spells. Like vampiric touch, for instance...
I'm curious, why the level of spellsword? You gain no benefits from the ignoring ASF, as you can already cast spells in light armor as per warmage's Armored Mage (light) ability. Is it for the BAB to qualify for dragonslayer and spellcasting increase just 'cause ya don't wanna fall to far behind?
1 Warmage - Luck of heroes, Practiced Spellcaster, Power Attack, Iron Will
2 Ftr - Cleave
3 Wmg - Ancestral Relic (need character level 3)
4 Ftr - Dodge
5 Wmg
6 Wmg - Practiced Spellcaster ( I originally did this so i could take feats to add spells later... may have been a mistake)
7 Spellsword - (I did this because i needed +5 BAB to get Dragonslayer, I was also planning on taking more SS levels until i changed my mind)
8 Dragonslayer
9 Dragonslayer - Arcane Strike
I'll be getting feats at 12th, 15th, 17th, and 18th with the build i have planned. If i were to take an Extra Spell feat at 12th or 15th i could add a new third level spell. If i did it at 18th i could add a fourth level spell. I'm considering Imp. toughness for my 17th level feat, but i have a decent Con so im not sure. I hope this clears up some of your questions. Any new thoughts? I really appreciate the input.
Paladin of Tyranny2/Hexblade2/Fighter1/Swashbuckler1/Suel Archanamach6/Nar Demonbinder1/Spellsword1/Eldritch Knight 6
BAB 17, CL 13 (17), full ND progression
Only requires 10 int or 8 int as human!
Edited for improvement to the build by Deathson.
Rogue4/Rokugan Ninja1/Assassin8/Nar Demonbinder1/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/EK4
You get:
16 BAB
14 CL with nearly full ND progression and lv4 Assassin spells
Skills out the wazoo
7d6 Sneak Attack
Trapfinding
Evasion
Ninja Dodge +1
Death Attack
Poison Use
Uncanny Dodge + Improved Uncanny Dodge
Hide in Plain Sight(!)
-10% ASF
Aura of Courage
One other nice thing is that qualifying for dragonslayer is no big deal because you need iron will for ND anyway, and ninja dodge lets you qualify...as long as you wear armor with an armor check penalty of 0. You'll probably want that anyway as a skillmonkey/caster.
This guy's probably best suited using a Chain and spring attacking, only using its TWF function when in a good sneak attack position. Shuriken would be nice except that they're worse than daggers.
Edit: Bleah, forgot that AT has the worst BAB progression...got rid of it in favor of EK.
1 Warmage - Luck of Heroes(Regional), Practiced Spellcaster(Flaw), Power Attack(Flaw), Iron Will
2 Ftr - Cleave
3 Wmg - Ancestral Relic (need character level 3)
4 Ftr - Dodge
5 Wmg
6 Wmg - Practiced Spellcaster ( I originally did this so i could take feats to add spells later... may have been a mistake)
7 Spellsword - (I did this because i needed +5 BAB to get Dragonslayer, I was also planning on taking more SS levels until i changed my mind)
8 Dragonslayer
9 Dragonslayer - Arcane Strike
10 Dragonslayer
11 Dragonslayer
12 Dragonslayer - Extra Spell: Vampiric Touch
13 Dragonslayer
14 Dragonslayer
15 Dragonslayer - Arcane Disciple (Strength)
16 Dragonslayer
17 Eldritch Knight - Imp. Toughness
18 Eldritch Knight - Extra Spell/Arcane Disciple (not really sure yet)
19 Eldritch Knight
20 Eldritch Knight
Base Saves: 16/5/13 (However with Iron Will and the Lightning Reflexes from Dragon Slayer its more like 16/7/15)
BAB: +18
CL: 13 (20 with Practiced Spell Caster)
Bonus Against Dragons: +9 damage, +9 to CL checks to overcome SR, Improved Critical
Other Bonuses: ISF 10%, can cast freely in Light Armor/Shields, Warmage Edge (+int to spell damage), DR 3/-, Aura of Courage, Lightning Reflexes, Energy Resistance 5
Now this is what my build is slated to look like when im done. Right now I'm at level 9. When iIstarted this character Complete Arcane was not out yet. If i had to do it over again id take arcane disciple earlier, but as it stands I'll need to wait till 12th level.
One of the neat things Ive found about the ancestral relic is that you can put enchantments on items you wouldn't normally be able to if your DM allows. Such as the ability of a rod of maximize or something on your weapon.
Edit: Ah i re-read the rules on the Practiced Spellcaster feat... guess the effects dont stack.. hmm gotta change my character up some :-\
Dragonbane
2 Fighter/4 Warmage/1 Spellsword/5 Dragonslayer/8 Eldritch Knight
BAB: +18
Caster Level: 15 (19 with Practiced Spellcaster)
Base Saves: 16/4/15
Required Feats: Dodge, Iron Will (for Dragonslayer)
Abilities: Aura of Courage, +5 damage to dragons, +5 CL check to overcome SR on dragons, DR 1/-, Energy Resitance 5, ISF 10%, cast freely with Light Armor/Shields, +Int to spell damage.
If you are using Arcana Unearthed rules you can add some feats with flaws. I'd also consider taking some Arcane Disciple feats from the Complete Divine if you have a high enough wisdom score. The Spellgifted trait from Arcana Unearthed might also be of use, since it boosts one spell school by +1 CL and drops the others by 1. Warmages have mostly Evocaiton spells and a few Conjuration. Probably wouldn't hurt you too much if you took the Spellgifted Evocation trait. Would bring your final CL to 20.
Downfall would be a CL of 14 at 20 instead of 15.. Would that be much of an effective difference? Thanks.
A Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Wizard 2/Bladesinger 10/Spellsword 1/Champion Of Corellon 2 is fairly good in melee... with Song Of Fury, that means 5 attacks/round with Dex + Int to damage. Sure, caster level is total crap (8th), but hey, you're a Bladesinger.
It could work a lot better if you took one of the fast spellcasing classes like Nar Demonbinder or Sublime Chord:
A Bard 6/Fighter 2/Spellsword 1/Champion Of Corellon 2/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 6/Sacred Exorcist 1 has BAB +16, CL 15th (8th level spells), Cha + Dex to damage. Go Star Elf with Otherwordly feat, Draconic Polymorph into a Kelvezu, take Snowflake Wardance and you're set. It's impossible to do it with Soldier Of Light, before someone suggests it - it's too feat-intensive.
Bard6/Ftr1/SS2/Champ2/SC2/EK3/SE4
Same thing, just slightly better saves and HP.
It's not bad...it's just harder to fit in imo, given its feat requirements. I think that SC build is probably the best you can do CL wise. The only revision I can think of to make so far is
Bard6/Ftr1/SS2/Champ2/SC2/EK3/SE4
Same thing, just slightly better saves and HP.
True enough. Since you suggested this remarkable improvement, why not
[B[Bard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 5/Champion Of Corellon 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 4[/b]?
Just drop the EK levels altogether and have Channel Spell, for the same caster level. Of course, you'd only take the 2 first SS levels prior to SC. The more SS levels, the easier the way into SE.
As for the feats, well, there are many people here who actually like the Bladesinger, which is more feat-intensive and much worse. Why not use these feats to achieve something a lot better, for roughly the same flavor?
Suggested non-polymorph build:
Race: Star Elf (+2 Cha, -2 Con). Requires Str 13+, Int 13+.
1 bar1 Mounted Combat
2 fig1 Improved Weapon Familiarity*
3 bar2 Dodge
4 bar3
5 bar4
6 bar5 Weapon Finesse
7 bar6
8 ss1
9 ss2 Snowflake Wardance, Combat Expertise*
10 coc1 feat*
11 sc1
12 coc2 power Attack
13 ss3
14 ss4
15 se1 Divine Might
By 15th level, you already have everything you want: Cha+Dex to hit, Cha+Dex to damage. You might as well take Two-weapon Fighting, but you'll do pretty fine wielding just an Elven Courtblade, and Arcane Striuke would be welcome, too.
True enough. Since you suggested this remarkable improvement, why not
[B[Bard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 5/Champion Of Corellon 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 4[/b]?
Just drop the EK levels altogether and have Channel Spell, for the same caster level. Of course, you'd only take the 2 first SS levels prior to SC. The more SS levels, the easier the way into SE.
Yeah, I was thinking of that too, except for the loss in SC progression because of the rules on advancing CLs in classes you didn't have before starting a CL-raising PrC. I just favor higher spell levels though.
Fighter2/Sorceror4/Spellsword3/Eldritch Knight4/Ruathryn3/Sacred Exorcist4
Ruathryn is from Races of the Wild (full spellcasting, 3/4 BAB). Recommended races are Human and Illumian (Naen and Hoon sigils). Recommended feats include Arcane Strike, Divine Vigor, and Divine Might.
Final BAB: +16
Final CL: 16 (1 8th level Sorceror spell)
This will be my archetypal Sorceror gish build. Will come up with one for Wizard.
this spells are excelent for the armored spellcaster that cant part ways with its full plate
0 Light
1 Feather Fall
1 Hold Portal
1 True Strike
1 Ventriloquism
2 Blindness/Deafness
2 Blur
2 Darkness
2 Knock
3 Tongues
4 Dimension Door
4 Geas, Lesser
5 Contact Other Plane
5 Teleport
6 Geas/Quest
7 Phase Door
7 Power Word Blind
7 Teleport Object
7 Teleport, Greater
8 Charm Monster, Mass
8 Irresistible Dance
8 Power Word Stun
9 Mage's Disjunction
9 Power Word Kill
9 Prismatic Sphere
9 Teleportation Circle
9 Time Stop
9 Wail of the Banshee
9 Wish
SoulLord
rules on advancing CLs in classes you didn't have before starting a CL-raising PrC.
Erm, is there a general rule for that? As far as I reckon, it varies from class to class. I'm pretty sure Mystic Theurge allows to choose the classes you'll advance at each level, not so with the Eldritch Knight, for that matter. I'm not quite sure about Spellsword, but I guess it's possible.
RadicalTaoist's Basic Gish Build
Fighter2/Sorceror4/Spellsword3/Eldritch Knight4/Ruathryn3/Sacred Exorcist4
RT, nice take on the Ruathryn. Sure, it's a crappy PrC, but I think the extra skill points and improvements on Ref save is worth the loss of BAB. For fractional BAB builds, I'd highly recommend EK 7/Ruathryn 3/Sacred Exocist 1 instead. You don't lose a BAB and you keep your good skills and saves.
Erm, is there a general rule for that? As far as I reckon, it varies from class to class.
Well, there is a sentence at the end of every PrC's spell per day entry that is pretty much uniform.
If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.
If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an eldritch knight, she must decide to which class she adds each level of eldritch knight for the purpose of determining spells per day.
If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.
It's the same for every other spell progressing PrC. The only change is the class name, including divine/arcane spellcasting, and other requirement-related clarifications like on arch mage. Now, I guess it just depends on your interpretation of the bolded part, and why it's always in there in a uniform way - regardless of subtle differences in wording earlier in the spells per day section. I and others have figured that the "before" is in there for a reason. If you could add in new casting classes whenever to the progression, the "before" in the sentence would be completely pointless to put in.
Human
Fighter 1/ Wizard 1/ Human Paragon 3/ Spell sword 1/ Dragon slayer 1/ Ruathar 3/ Eldritch Knight 10
That should give you a +17 bab and a 17 CL
How about this...
Human
Fighter 1/ Wizard 1/ Human Paragon 3/ Spell sword 1/ Dragon slayer 1/ Ruathar 3/ Eldritch Knight 10
That should give you a +17 bab and a 17 CL
What makes this build unique? It's good that one can come up with a mechanically decent caster/mage, but almost all of these fighter/mage or mage/fighter builds have something special about them.
For example. This build has access to 9th level spells (at least two, even given the most stingy GM). It's also got saves of at least +7/+1/+9 (not counting Ruathar since I don't know what that is), which isn't good at all. Ignoring 10% ASF is alright, immunity to fear is always a boon, and you have a net 8 feats, plus scribe scroll, to play with (including two taken for Endurance and Iron Will). What strategies did you have in mind with this build?
Sang-Drax, can you explain fractional BAB? I think I get the basic concept (.5, .75, and 1 BAB at each leve, class pending), but what happens when you have 10.5 BAB, for instance? Do you round up for three attacks or down and remain at two attacks?
What is that saying?? If you can't say anything nice... Anyways, the idea behind the build was to give a high number of attacks as well as give 9th level spells. The saves work out to something like +15/ +7/ +15 which is much better than what you had attempted to suggest.
Personally I am not interested in builds that don't give a character their full 4 attacks and 9th level spells. Which this build does nicely.
Mind explaining the saves, though? Admittedly my math was off earlier (dunno how I made that mistake...
), but what kind of saves does that Rauthar get?Ftr: +2/+0/+0
Wiz: +0/+0/+2
HP: +1/+1/+3
SS: +2/+0/+2
DS: +2/+0/+2
EK: +7/+3/+3
Rua: +?/+?/+?
Gloura Bard 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Paladin 2 / Pious Templar 1 / Eldritch Knight 6
This gloura trades away a little of the gish mainstays (it only has 7th level spells and BAB 12) for Cha to AC and double Cha to saves, plus Mettle. If something allows a save, it's not likely to hurt this gish, who also bases its own save DCs and bonus spells on Charisma and can wear light armor.
Sang-Drax, can you explain fractional BAB? I think I get the basic concept (.5, .75, and 1 BAB at each leve, class pending), but what happens when you have 10.5 BAB, for instance? Do you round up for three attacks or down and remain at two attacks?
Yeah, you got the basics... but it always rounds down. It's cheesy, but fair to a certain point... after all, makes no sense a Rogue 1/Wizard 1 being a worse fighter than a Wizard 2... but builds full of 1-level dips gets more common, and with uber high saves.
Personally I am not interested in builds that don't give a character their full 4 attacks and 9th level spells. Which this build does nicely.
Channel Spell is a kickass ability that's totally worth the loss of 2 caster levels (specially since you're netting a bonus feat as well).
The thing is, you can be a good spellcaster without a really high spellcasting stats or feats/PrCs that increase spellcasting ability. On the other hand, you can't be a decent warrior without dealing damage. That said, it's usually better to favor Str instead of Cha/Int (unless you're a polymorpher or benefits from Snowflake Wardance + Divine Might) and focus more on combat than spells. I highly recommend using spells for buffing, utility, and no save spells, maxing your str and taking combat feats. Not to mention taking Spellsword 5
Sorcerer6/sacredexorcist4/eldritchknight10.
Also makes me all happy inside.
Where is warrior skald from? I read the entire thread just now and I wasn't sure where that one came from.
Well, there is a sentence at the end of every PrC's spell per day entry that is pretty much uniform.
It's the same for every other spell progressing PrC. The only change is the class name, including divine/arcane spellcasting, and other requirement-related clarifications like on arch mage. Now, I guess it just depends on your interpretation of the bolded part, and why it's always in there in a uniform way - regardless of subtle differences in wording earlier in the spells per day section. I and others have figured that the "before" is in there for a reason. If you could add in new casting classes whenever to the progression, the "before" in the sentence would be completely pointless to put in.
This is not, actually, true. For instance, if you read the enlightened fist in CA, it says, "before you add the prestige class level." [emphasis mine] Many of the other PrCs in the Complete series are similar. I'm not sure if this was a global change in wording after the DMG/SRD was written, but there you have it. IMO, RAI says that it was always that way, and that the wording change clarified it.
This is not, actually, true. For instance, if you read the enlightened fist in CA, it says, "before you add the prestige class level." [emphasis mine] Many of the other PrCs in the Complete series are similar. I'm not sure if this was a global change in wording after the DMG/SRD was written, but there you have it. IMO, RAI says that it was always that way, and that the wording change clarified it.
True, but the text in Eldritch Knight is really "before you entered the prestige class".
Illumian Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10 as a prefix for whatever those last five levels can get you that has a good BAB. Your first-level feat needs to be Militia, and you should take Aesh and Krau as your runes. Also, invest in Enhanced Power Sigils and Improved Sigil (Aesh) to get what is basically, a better version of Weapon Specialisation.
(...) otherwise a Frenzied Berserker would fall unconcious everytime he rages.
Why would that be?
Really, I don't see another interpretation for "before you entered the prC". You can do it as a house rule, but I guess the text is pretty clear. Besides, I don't think there's a good reason to tweak the rule... losing just 1 level of spellcasting at EK 1st level is good enough.
Illumian Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10 as a prefix for whatever those last five levels can get you that has a good BAB. Your first-level feat needs to be Militia, and you should take Aesh and Krau as your runes. Also, invest in Enhanced Power Sigils and Improved Sigil (Aesh) to get what is basically, a better version of Weapon Specialisation.
Going Wizard 6 is always a good thing: +1 BAB, +1 on all saves, 1 hp less than EK. Anyway, I have played with the Militia wiz (actually, sor), and it really sucks. You have too few hps and low AC to be a good warrior, and the lack of good spellcasting PrCs make you a poor arcane caster in comparison to the rest of the party. Going EK 10 is only good if you're playing core.
Besides, if you're an Illumian, the more classes you have, the better.
Fighter 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 3/Sacred Exorcist 4/Raumathari Battlemage 4/Eldritch Knight 3, for instance, nets you 7 sigils... that's a +7 damage! Combine it with Power Attack/Divine Might and 2wf and you're set. You don't have 9th level spells, but all you have to do is focus on no-save and buff spells. In the build above, a high Cha will be fairly good because of Divine Might, but Illumians are even more encouraged to have their spellcasting stat as a secondary stat, as you can use Str as the stat for bonus spells.
I wasn't attempting to be rude, merely probing for more detail. On reason the other "gish" thread (JosephKell's) died out is because the same basic things were continually rehashed. I apologize for coming off as snide.
Mind explaining the saves, though? Admittedly my math was off earlier (dunno how I made that mistake...
Ftr: +2/+0/+0
Wiz: +0/+0/+2
HP: +1/+1/+3
SS: +2/+0/+2
DS: +2/+0/+2
EK: +7/+3/+3
Rua: +?/+?/+?
Well from what I said previously they get +1/ +3/ +3. It seems that the gish suffers from a low ref save and the class helps with that as will as gives full caster progression.
Why would that be?
Going Wizard 6 is always a good thing: +1 BAB, +1 on all saves, 1 hp less than EK. Anyway, I have played with the Militia wiz (actually, sor), and it really sucks. You have too few hps and low AC to be a good warrior, and the lack of good spellcasting PrCs make you a poor arcane caster in comparison to the rest of the party. Going EK 10 is only good if you're playing core.
Simplicity was the angle I was going for. In the build of it I made, one of my core concerns was the low hit points, which made Improved Toughness a high priority. I'd opt for an archer presence at the lower levels - the AC isn't so important then, and your To Hit only lags a slight amount.
Fighter 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 3/Sacred Exorcist 4/Raumathari Battlemage 4/Eldritch Knight 3, for instance, nets you 7 sigils... that's a +7 damage!
Actually, it's +6. There are only 6 sigils. There's no need to dip around so wildly given you only need 6 level 2s, at best.
Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Runesmith 1/Havoc Mage 5/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 7
1 Wizard Scribe Scroll, Power Attack
2 Wizard
3 Wizard Arcane Disciple (War domain)
4 Fighter Cleave
5 Wizard
6 Runesmith Arcane Strike
7 Wizard Extend Spell
8 Havoc Mage
9 Havoc Mage Improved Bull Rush, Battlecast 2nd
10 Havoc Mage
11 Havoc Mage
12 Spellsword Practiced Spellcaster, Battlecast 4th
13 Eldritch Knight Shock Trooper
14 Eldritch Knight
15 Eldritch Knight ?
16 Eldritch Knight
17 Eldritch Knight
18 Eldritch Knight ?
19 Havoc Mage Battlecast 8th
20 Eldritch Knight
The beauty of this is using Battlecast with True Strike + Power Attack on the charge, Divine Power (from the War domain) or Polymorphing the subsequent round, etc. All sorts of amazingly powerful Battlecast abilities, and all in Heavy armor with your hands full swinging some massive 2-handed weapon while safely encased in your Extended Magic Vestment armor and Animated Shield.
Actually, it's +6. There are only 6 sigils. There's no need to dip around so wildly given you only need 6 level 2s, at best.
Really? Hm, so you need only 5 level 2s, as you begin with one sigil already, IIRC.
Eldritch Knight is just amazing in a core game. You'll be just almost as good a caster as any other PCs in the party, at least until one of them becomes an archmage - which you can perfectly become as well!
*Characters should be at the tenth (10th) level, using the 3.5 Edition rules for Dungeons and Dragons. .
*Character stats are generated by 34 point planned generation method. Each ability starts a 8 and you have 34 points to buy a higher ability stat. Do not forget the ability adjustments at the 4th level and 8th level..
* Dragon-related races will not be accepted nor will a fluffy half-ogre wereserpent from the Plane of Munchkin.
* Starting gold is now 56,000. I want the group to be equipped and dragons are rough on equipment. Remember that Charisma will play a big part on how the NPCs will deal with you.
*For the most part only core books will be used.
However, being a core-only game, it's quite simple: Fig2/Wiz8/EK 10. Start as a Fig1/Wiz6/EK 3 and go all the way into EK before returning to the other two classes.
Usually, CO regulars tend to shun requests like that... they usually prefer that you post a build of your own - it's in the CO FAQ.
However, being a core-only game, it's quite simple: Fig2/Wiz8/EK 10. Start as a Fig1/Wiz6/EK 3 and go all the way into EK before returning to the other two classes.
Sorry about that.
Oh and by core the DM meant only books published by WotC.
Okay so building upon my previous build... How about a Fighter 1/ Wizard 1/ Spell sword 4/ Dragon slayer 1/ Ruathar 3/ Eldritch Knight 10. Or should I try to add Havok Mage in there too, maybe instead of the Spellsword.
Sorry about that.
Oh and by core the DM meant only books published by WotC.
Okay so building upon my previous build... How about a Fighter 1/ Wizard 1/ Spell sword 4/ Dragon slayer 1/ Ruathar 3/ Eldritch Knight 10. Or should I try to add Havok Mage in there too, maybe instead of the Spellsword.
Actually, you don't even as much as get near the requirements to qualify to Spellsword... you know, most builds in this guide start with Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1 for some reason :P
My suggestion is: take a look at the first pages of this thread. Shadow Mage has done an excellent job, there's plenty of information neat and organized. True, Ruathar is not included in the guide, and I believe Havoc Mage isn't either... but really, I don't think these 2 PrCs are worth it... Ruathar is completely not worth it; Havoc Mage, less so. The huge loss of BAB and caster level isn't a fair trade off for the ability to cast spells and make a single attack. Channel Spell ability from Spellsword is far superior, if you want a cool class feature besides spellcasting.
I would think that anything that allows a Polymorphed Firbolg to Power Attack WHILE casting spells is a good thing. Realistically, a BAB at 11+ is the only threshold you need to meet if you can consistently be in melee with a STR in the mid 40s without losing a round buffing yourself - a tradeoff easily worth it if means you're giving up an attack at -15 to your BAB to resolve.
What spells are so good that you think being able to cast free Quickened spells isn't worth it? I don't know about most other games, but the ones I usually play in the melee-types can put out 40+ damage per swing easily, call it 120+ dmg per round against a single target per melee warrior. Mages exist to pump out utility spells to augment the fighters, and Battlecast seems the best way to perform both roles.
What is a gish without Battlecast doing that the loss of Quickening all the best buffs is worth it?
However, if you plan NOT to Polymorph and rely on your combat and magical skills that will not increase yur BAB, Havoc Mage is not a good option, unless fractional BAB is being used. A full attack from a good melee Gish is just as devastating as the combo puny spell + puny blow from a Havoc Mage.
I don't see much point in casting attack/damage spells, to be honest. Some (Shivering Touch) are obviously useful, but most aren't. I just see it (when combined with Runesmith) as a quick and easy way to cast and fight in full armor while using a monstrously powerful 2-handed weapon.
Heck, Battlecasting True Strike in conjunction with Power Attack is amazingly appealing on its own.
It just seems to me that if you're not in melee and able to cast and attack simultaneously, you're hanging back and casting spells... which is what a straight spellcaster does. To me, the whole POINT of gishing is to be able to perform both roles simultaneously.
Of course, I think that there's a case to be made that you might be able to create a Wizard Archer (with Arcane Disciple) that can rival the v3.0 Cleric Archer. But a gish without Battlecast to me isn't really a gish so much as a wizard with nice HPs.
It just seems to me that if you're not in melee and able to cast and attack simultaneously, you're hanging back and casting spells... which is what a straight spellcaster does. To me, the whole POINT of gishing is to be able to perform both roles simultaneously.
Simultaneously? Being able to switch between roles isn't good enough? I can settle for one at a time, with the exception of Quickened spells.
Although personally, I prefer Delayed spells myself.
Simultaneously? Being able to switch between roles isn't good enough?
No. I've come to expect a lot from my DnD characters.
I see the reasoning behind the traditional aversion to the Havoc Mage, though. The standard idea of gishing is to be able to maintain the role of the primary arcane caster while being able to branch out and grab non-traditional abilities?
As for the Havoc Mage, well, the Battlecast ability really seems interesting, but it's usually not enough. I'd rather buff myself when I have the time and be able to be devastating in melee even without the buffs. I have played with a Human Fighter/Wiz/Paragon etc that had as many feats as any other pure martial character, Strength 30 and he was a tripper/whirlwind attacker. Whirlwind attacking with Arcane Strike is just so cool! And he had the Channel Spell ability as well... he'd lose 5 caster levels until level 20, but it was enough to improve his amazing combat skills.
Havoc Mage is far from being crap... I think it's a nice class, but I'd only play one with fractional BAB.
I have to add that I completely agree with Sang-Drax here in that if you’re going to polymorph to become a warrior, don’t bother trying the warrior route to begin with. Just iron out that draconic polymorph and tenser’s transformation while in that form and you’ll be more than a match for most anything you can encounter in melee. Dragons would even be annoyed. However, if battlecast is what I think it is (what it sounds like, at any rate), and you can use it to allow Power Attack and true strike, THAT is gish-ness. And damned pretty stuff too, especially for two-hand weapon fighters. Gives me tingles just thinking about the charge attacks…
Simultaneously? Being able to switch between roles isn't good enough?
No. I've come to expect a lot from my DnD characters.
Ah, that was the funniest thing I've read in a while. :P
Edit: Having read Sang-Drax's last post, I'm not trying to figure the damage for a 20th level gish using Power Attack, true stike, whirlwind attack, and Arcane Strike...and I'm liking the potential... :evillaugh
Shadow Mage, I might write something concerning Havoc Mage and pm you, ok?
So, do I go for tank AC or an extra five feet of movement? I could also get another 10 HP if I dropped my Amulet of Natural Armor +2 and got an Amulet of Health +2 and I'd have 4,000 left to play with. I could give my two Masterwork backup weapons +1 enhancements with that. If I did that, AC would go to 26 and HP would go from 76 to 86. Still the 15 ft movement though.
I'm using the iconic Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 4 arrangement right now, with plans to get Spellsword 5 and then go to Eldritch Knight. Should I focus more on HP or AC for this build? Suggestions?
On a different note, I noticed someone in another thread mention the Wraithstrike spell from Complete Adventurer and I think this could be a very useful spell for a Gish. It's a second level Sorcerer/Wizard or Assassin spell and a swift action (essentially a free action though limited to 1/round if I remember the rules correctly) to cast and makes all of your melee attacks resolve as touch attacks for one round. So you could Power Attack and Arcane Strike and then cast and get a full attack of touch attacks. Using the setup I have right now, I can Power Attack for 8 points and burn a 3rd level spell for Arcane Strike and I'm using a Greatsword +1 with Weapon Focus, so using this spell I would have two attacks a round at +7/+2 for 2d6+3d4+19 each, resolving as touch attacks. Sounds pretty sweet to me.
Further, Wraithstrike is personal. Persistent Spell anyone? An 8th level slot to be able to max your Power Attack all day - and maybe max Improved Combat Expertise as well - is just awesome!
Just get the Spellguard of Silverymoon / Incantrix to drop a Persistent Wraithstrike and Persistent Shapechange on you. Your spell slots belong to Arcane Strike!
Just get the Spellguard of Silverymoon / Incantrix to drop a Persistent Wraithstrike and Persistent Shapechange on you. Your spell slots belong to Arcane Strike!
The spellcaster in question would have a difficult time buffing you with a personal-range spell... And thank you for the write-up Sang-Drax, I'll be adding it tonight. One Havoc Mage coming right up!
Iron Mind
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +3, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Iron Will, Invest Armor (feat from Races of Stone), Concentration 8 ranks, ability to manifest one 1st level power
Merits: d10 Hit Die, only loses a manifester level at 1st and 6th, Armored Mind, Mind over Matter, -/x damage reduction while psionically focused in heavy armor, Mettle of Will, Barbed Mind at level 10
Drawbacks: Medium BAB. That's. About. It.
Good levels to jump out after: 5th, if you don't want to lose a 2nd manifester level. 5th grants you Mettle of Will (only applies to Will saves, sorry) which ain't half bad.
Good drop-levels: Really, every level of this class is pretty sick. D10 Hit Die??? 6th is the weakest level, with no manifester progression and granting another daily use of Mind over Matter (use your Will save in place of a Fortitude or Reflex save as an immediate action). Definitely a PrC worth going all out in, even though the 10th level ability Barbed Mind isn't stunning (good, mind you, but not stunning).
Good lead ins: Psywar5, Psion4/Fighter1, Psion3/Ftr2, also segues into PrCs like Warmind and Illithid Slayer (which grants heavy armor proficiency) very nicely.
The spellcaster in question would have a difficult time buffing you with a personal-range spell...
That's one of the abilities of the Spellguard of Silverymoon, which is why it was included in the build.
EDIT: Never mind, found it. It wouldn't work for Wraithstrike because the text says that the ability only applies to spells that increase saving throw modifiers or AC or grant additional HP. Wraithstrike doesn't do any of that.
1. Cast quickened true strike. Charge using your full BAB. If you have Leap Attack, all the better.
2. Cast Wraithstrike. Use the Advancing Blows ability from the Combat Brute feat to triple your BAB. Use your full BAB again - with Wraithstrike, all your attacks are likely to succeed against most large critters. If you have Cleave or Great Cleave, all the better, too: your primary foe will probably be dead by the end of the round.
Anybody mind explaining what Wraithstrike is? I'm not sure if it's a feat or spell or class ability, at this point, which is beginning to bother me...
I didn't see this in any of the previous 5 pages or so, but wouldn't a hexblade synergize well with a warmage or warlock for a light armored gish? All three are CHA based characters.
Hexblade is described indeed, in the first page. The drawback is that Hexblades don't get heavy armor proficiency, and, thus, can't qualify to Spellsword. For a 2-level dip, Paladin is much better: cha to all saves (not only against spells), Smite Evil, Detect Evil, Lay On Hands. Hexblade's curse is useless if you don't advance the class itself.
Warlock can't qualify to any Gish PrC, and that's why there's nothing concerning them in this thread.
Radical Taoist, I'd love to help you, but I know nothing concerning psionics...
Players handbook
0 Light
1 Feather Fall
1 Hold Portal
1 True Strike
1 Ventriloquism
2 Blindness/Deafness
2 Blur
2 Darkness
2 Knock
3 Tongues
4 Dimension Door
4 Geas, Lesser
5 Contact Other Plane
5 Teleport
6 Geas/Quest
7 Phase Door
7 Power Word Blind
7 Teleport Object
7 Teleport, Greater
8 Charm Monster, Mass
8 Irresistible Dance
8 Power Word Stun
9 Mage's Disjunction
9 Power Word Kill
9 Prismatic Sphere
9 Teleportation Circle
9 Time Stop
9 Wail of the Banshee
9 Wish
Miniatures handbook
2 baleful transposition
2 blades of fire
2 slide greater
1 bening transposition
1 slide
While we're at it, why not a list of good gish races? Some races just make better gish (Dwarves, Illumians, Kalashtar, etc.) than others, and the ramifications of taking certain races for gish classes, especially taking racial substitution levels and racial PrCs into account, ought to be mentioned.
Just get the Spellguard of Silverymoon / Incantrix to drop a Persistent Wraithstrike and Persistent Shapechange on you. Your spell slots belong to Arcane Strike!
Err, you can't use the spellguard ability to cast a persistent wraithstrike...the ability only works for "defensive" spells - those that increase AC, saves, and/or HP. As for persistent shapechange, well once you get level 15 spells, sure.
Hexblade is described indeed, in the first page. The drawback is that Hexblades don't get heavy armor proficiency, and, thus, can't qualify to Spellsword. For a 2-level dip, Paladin is much better: cha to all saves (not only against spells), Smite Evil, Detect Evil, Lay On Hands. Hexblade's curse is useless if you don't advance the class itself.
Warlock can't qualify to any Gish PrC, and that's why there's nothing concerning them in this thread.
Radical Taoist, I'd love to help you, but I know nothing concerning psionics...
I'm sorry, I did read the first page comments about hexblade being a gish in itself. I just thought that for a non good CHA based character that could wear light armor, some combo of hexblade/warmage/EK would work well....perhaps a level of cleric so you could sacrafice those turning attempts for Holy Might.
I'm sorry, I did read the first page comments about hexblade being a gish in itself. I just thought that for a non good CHA based character that could wear light armor, some combo of hexblade/warmage/EK would work well....perhaps a level of cleric so you could sacrafice those turning attempts for Holy Might.
Even then, Paladin is much better... Pal/Warmage/Spellsword/EK and then Sacred Exorcist. You don't waste a caster level by doing that. At least one level of Spellsword is useful for the Knowledge requirements.
That means that, if you want to be non-good, you'd better go fighter/wizard... or else every paladin/warmage or sorcerer will kick your arse! :D
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=420816
The others are still fair game though.As for paladins and hexblades, paladins are far superior because of turning. In fact, Paladin4/Sorcerer6/Spellsword1/Eldritch Knight9 isn't a bad investment. BAB +17, Caster Level 15, lots of Charisma synergy, Divine Might (turning from paladin) and Arcane Strike goodness, use human as a base race and grab a spiked chain and you're good to go! Hexblade, though, are still pretty darned good, but mostly as a standalone gish or as one to lead into another fighter/mage prestige class with its own self-contained spellcasting progression (preferably one using Charisma as its primary stat).
22 pages of replies and counting, for crying out loud somebody either add the best of this to the optimization library or start a new gish thread but I digress here are my two cents on build that can survive melee and have full spellcasting progression to boot.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=420816
Thanks for the compliment! I doubt another gish thread is really necessary though...unless it's to make a new one to be sticked and made exclusive so only the original poster (likely me or another frequenter to this thread) could add to it. No need to add a third huge thread about fighter/mage goodness.
Nice progressions, by the way, but I would (as was posted in your thread) consider dropping the other Ur-Priest levels for something with better base attack bonus progression and good/medium spellcasting progression.
BAB 16, CL 17, effectively a 5th level monk, and can combine attacks with touch spells.
Human Sorcerer 3/Monk 1/Fighter 1/Enlightened Fist 7/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 7
1 Sorcerer Combat Casting, Fell Weaken
2 Fighter TWF*
3 Monk Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Fist*, Power Attack
4 Sorcerer
5 Sorcerer
6 Enlightened Fist Weakening Touch or Sudden Maximize
7 Enlightened Fist
8 Enlightened Fist
9 Enlightened Fist Heighten Spell
10 Enlightened Fist
11 Enlightened Fist
12 Enlightened Fist Extra Stunning
13 Spellsword
14 Eldritch Knight Rapid Stunning* (assuming your WIS is good enough)
15 Eldritch Knight Rapid Stunning
16 Eldritch Knight
17 Eldritch Knight
18 Eldritch Knight Extra Stunning
19 Eldritch Knight
20 Eldritch Knight
This build survives by abusing stat-reducing spells. Weakening Touch + Fell Weaken + Ray of Enfeeblement all on the same strike (or a Sudden Maximized Shivering Touch) make for some deadly capabilities. In fact, you can probably see that I got lazy with feat choices around level 14 for precisely this reason. I assume there may be more appropriate choices.
0 Light
1 Feather Fall
1 Hold Portal
1 True Strike
1 Ventriloquism
2 Blindness/Deafness
2 Blur
2 Darkness
2 Knock
3 Tongues
4 Dimension Door
4 Geas, Lesser
5 Contact Other Plane
5 Teleport
6 Geas/Quest
7 Phase Door
7 Power Word Blind
7 Teleport Object
7 Teleport, Greater
8 Charm Monster, Mass
8 Irresistible Dance
8 Power Word Stun
9 Mage's Disjunction
9 Power Word Kill
9 Prismatic Sphere
9 Teleportation Circle
9 Time Stop
9 Wail of the Banshee
9 Wish
2 baleful transposition
2 blades of fire
2 slide greater
1 benign transposition
1 slide
5 Resonating Resistance
4 Damning Darkness
3 Dread Word
3 Drown
1 Drug Resistance
8 Maddening whispers
7 Hiss of sleep
6 Aura of terror
5 Wings of air greater
5 Draconic Polymorph
2 Razor Fangs
2 scintilating scales
2 Wings of air
8 Last Judgement (celestial)
7 Eladrin form
6 Wages of Sin (abstinence)
3 Warcry
2 Yoke of Mercy (abstinence)
4 Entangling Staff
2 Bladeweave
2 DaggerSpell Stance
2 Fly Swift
2 Sonic Weapon
1 Critical Strike
1 Expeditius retreat swift
1 Golem Strike
1 Guided Shot
1 Insightful feint
1 Masters Touch
6 Brilliant Blade
2 Blades of Fire
1 Low light Vision
are there any other sources of spells that im missing?
Enlightened Wraithstriker
Human Sorcerer 3/Monk 1/Fighter 1/Enlightened Fist 7/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 7
1 Sorcerer Combat Casting, Fell Weaken
2 Fighter TWF*
3 Monk Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Fist*, Power Attack
4 Sorcerer
5 Sorcerer
6 Enlightened Fist Weakening Touch or Sudden Maximize
7 Enlightened Fist
8 Enlightened Fist
9 Enlightened Fist Heighten Spell
10 Enlightened Fist
11 Enlightened Fist
12 Enlightened Fist Extra Stunning
13 Spellsword
14 Eldritch Knight Rapid Stunning* (assuming your WIS is good enough)
15 Eldritch Knight Rapid Stunning
16 Eldritch Knight
17 Eldritch Knight
18 Eldritch Knight Extra Stunning
19 Eldritch Knight
20 Eldritch Knight
This build survives by abusing stat-reducing spells. Weakening Touch + Fell Weaken + Ray of Enfeeblement all on the same strike (or a Sudden Maximized Shivering Touch) make for some deadly capabilities. In fact, you can probably see that I got lazy with feat choices around level 14 for precisely this reason. I assume there may be more appropriate choices.
You should definitely pick Ascetic Mage. use Cha instead of Wis to AC and Stunning DC (IIRC).
You should definitely pick Ascetic Mage. use Cha instead of Wis to AC and Stunning DC (IIRC).
I saw little point to it. The character uses the heaviest armor their ASF will allow and only uses their Stunning Fist uses to power their Enlightened Fist touch spells. The Rapid Stunning is to utilize the Enlightened Fist ability multiple times in the same round.
Its not a monk, its a gish!
What gishes, arcance and psionic, are playable from level 1?
I was thinking of Pal/Sorc/PrC(s), but cant really settle on just 1 or 2.
So.. I might be starting in a Kingdoms of Kalamar game here soon...
What gishes, arcance and psionic, are playable from level 1?
I was thinking of Pal/Sorc/PrC(s), but cant really settle on just 1 or 2.
Well, what are you looking for? Simplicity?
It should also be noted that many gishes playable from 1 on may have to change tactics throughout the career, i.e. play more like a warrior in the low levels and more like a caster in the high levels, or vice versa.
Well, what are you looking for? Simplicity?
It should also be noted that many gishes playable from 1 on may have to change tactics throughout the career, i.e. play more like a warrior in the low levels and more like a caster in the high levels, or vice versa.
A nice blend of simple, yet effective would be grand. I'll probably be the only arcane caster, but I dont want to be a traditional sort, so I am looking for something new. I also dont want to just blow crap up.
I was thinking of combining Wilder with Iron Mind and a couple levels of Warmind.
loose just 3 lvls of manifesting for nice +2 feats and bab
and seer gets some imo REAL cool, unsual abilitys (tough you might also select nomad or telepath).
illith is pretty standart, tough you might ask your dm if to flavor it a litte for your campaign setting.
on the avarage opion shared here, melee is superior early on, while casters excel on high lvls.
but the typical gish loses (except for battle sorc, which is a mess to me because of the too limited spell selection) about 3 points bab on the way to pr classes - ecspecially the sorc. the only trade being to sacrifice even more caster lvls, which hurts later on.
the good bab progression comes on late times, thanks to eldricht, scared exorcist, ...
so its rather caster early, meele later.
not so optimized progression ? or does the fireball-blasting-etc cut it until mid-lvls when your bab is back up again ?
on thing, that is quite bothering me:
on the avarage opion shared here, melee is superior early on, while casters excel on high lvls.
but the typical gish loses (except for battle sorc, which is a mess to me because of the too limited spell selection) about 3 points bab on the way to pr classes - ecspecially the sorc. the only trade being to sacrifice even more caster lvls, which hurts later on.
the good bab progression comes on late times, thanks to eldricht, scared exorcist, ...
so its rather caster early, meele later.
not so optimized progression ? or does the fireball-blasting-etc cut it until mid-lvls when your bab is back up again ?
You're right there. It would be a lot better to go melee first, caster later. However, remember three things:
1. You can't take any Gish prestige classes prior to level 7 or 6 (if you go Bard or Battlesorcerer 4/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1). That means that, like all multiclassed spellcasters, you will probably suck in the beginning.
2. Spellcasting classes advance BAB, but at half speed (again, unless you go Bard or Battlesorcerer). However, melee classes do not advance spellcasting at all.
3. You always need a minimum caster level to qualify to a gish PrC. It can be as low as 1 (Dragonslayer, Bladesinger) or as high as 5th or 6th (EK).
That said, there's not much you can do. Besides, remember that most warrior-type classes will not grant you anything that great after 2nd level. So, it's just not worth it from a CO point of view. The exception could be Paladin, which gains turn undead at 4th level... but you could aquire this ability with 1 level of Sacred Exorcist.
So, for instance, a Fighter 2/Wizard 4 fights just a little bit less than a Fighter 4/Wizard 2. We're talking about 8 less hp, 1 feat, and 1 BAB. However, not only Fig2/Wiz4 is ready to enter the Spellsword PrC, it's also much a better caster... there's a huge difference between casting 2nd level spells to casting only 1st level ones.
The PrCs that need more combat skills than spellcasting ones - the aforementioned Bladesinger and Dragonslayer - suck big time (other than a 1-level dip into DS). So, there's no reason to try to be an "awesome warrior with some spellcasting", as the other way round, the "more or less warrior and more or less spellcaster" will be much better in melee, too, even with little magical help.
Just compare the good ol' Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9, with its 4 bonus feats (+scribe scroll), Channel Spell, and 8th-level spells, with the poor little Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Bladesinger 10/Spellsword 1/EK 4, with crippled fighting skills (for using only a one-handed weapon), wasted feats to qualify to Bladesinger, 6th level spells, and MAD (Dexterity, Intelligence, and Strength). Dragonslayer 10 is just about the same... you're good at fighting against dragons, but suck at pretty much everything else.
what about psion (seer) 4 / fighter 2 / illith 10 / ... 4
loose just 3 lvls of manifesting for nice +2 feats and bab
and seer gets some imo REAL cool, unsual abilitys (tough you might also select nomad or telepath).
illith is pretty standart, tough you might ask your dm if to flavor it a litte for your campaign setting.
Not excusing you of being wrong, but I dont see how Telepath of Nomad is anymore standard than Egoist. If anything considering the class skills and disicipline related powers it'd be the egoist that would seem the most standard when it comes to a fullcaster trying to go gish. How would mind control improve his offensive abilities other than trying to say stand still so i can hit you, which then in that case the gish might as well be straight psion, if the telepath is going into Slayer for the hp and improved ranged touch and touch attacks then I can see it and have no problem with it.
- Aasimar: great for Pal/Sor gishes, but only if you use the 0 LA version from PGtF or if you're allowed to use UA buy-off. Other than that, it's not worth the +1 LA.
- Dwarf: unlocks Runesmith. +2 Con/-2 Cha is also a perfect tradeoff for a wizard Gish. With fighter as your favored class, you would probably be a wizard rather than sorcerer anyway. However, Dwarf sorcerer substitution levels in RoS are just amazing.
- Elf, High: unlocks Champion of Corellon and Bladesinger. Nor worthy otherwise, despite the fame elves have for making good Gishes since 1st ed.
- Elf, Grey: exchanging Str for Int might be a good choice for finesse Gishes, specially the Swashbuckler ones. Other than that, it's usually not worth it, unless you plan to fight polymorphed all the time.
- Elf, Star: excellent for Bard/Sublime Chord gishes, who tend to rely everything on Cha using the proper feats. You can also qualify for the Otherwordly feat, which enables you to pick some cool Polymorph forms.
- Half-Elf: only useful if you wish to go Human Paragon and Champion of Corellon and/or Bladesinger.
- Human: a bonus feat is always useful, and it also unlocks the all-mighty Human Paragon
- Illumian: Improved Sigil (aesh) means good damage without the need to rely on Polymorph. Other sigil combinations make Illumians one of the best Gish races around. It only gets better if you can convince your DM that, as technically human, you can take Human Paragon as well (broken).
- Spirit Folk: a rather uncommon race in the CO Boards, it's a better option than Star Elf if you want the Otherwordly feat but you're not going bard, because of the Favored Class: Any feature.
My friends, I apologize for the very long absense, that whole "real life" gig just kinda pounced on me very suddenly... I can't say I'm "back" per say, still have some issues I need to work out, but I'll be more attentive.
NOW! To read what all I've missed.
On Early-Game Gish
Sang-Drax had it exactly right: early game, a multiclass character is simply going to fall behind. In this case, it won't be as good a fighter as the fighter in the group, and it won't be as good a mage as the mage in the group. However, you have to remember that when you're playing your mage/warrior character that you're not alone in the party. Early game your best possible place is as a support role. Stand in front of that mage and protect his arse while throwing your own spells alongside his. Stand beside the fighter and swing away, buffing him a little while you go. No gish build is going to begin its "rise to power" so to speak before tenth level or so.
SoulLord
He bumped me. -sniffs- I feel so loved...
mean_liar
I'm way behind on source books and stuff, but am I reading right that your build is gaining multiple touch attacks per round? Meaning, multiple touch spells...like vampiric touches...sudden maximized/heightened...?
Calatash
No gish is "gish" at first level. It doesn't have enough mage or warrior to do both! If you don't want to "just blow things up", don't pick sorcerer or wilder. Psion and Wizard (arguably favoring Psion) would be your best bet. If you're the only caster of your group, lean towards an agumenting role for psion or wizard (preparing battlefield-control spells/powers, buff spells/powers, only a few overt offensive spells). But again, at first level you can't really do that just yet. If you want to be a more "caster-focused" gish, then I highly recommend going Psion or Wizard first, then warrior (likely via prestige classes). I wish I knew more about the newer stuff that's out (I've been out of the loop since Eberron first came out), but five levels of Warmind for sweeping strike, using a polearm, and draconic polymorphing into a firbolg or war troll is a scary option.
lgw
Seer? Sorry mate, but seer is almost exclusively a "caster only" discipline. If psion is going to be the "caster" part of your gish then you need either offensive or self-buff powers, and egoists and kineticists dominate those areas (and have more relevant skills like Autohypnosis...). Kurama Youko covers that well.
Also, your assumption is basically right. As I said above, and as has been pointed out by Sang-Drax, early on you don't have enough magical/psionic firepower TO be a great mage. The nifty thing about gish IS their ability to switch gears at higher level and starting adding those empowered + extended bull's strengths and heightened/maximizedvampiric touches.
And back to Sang-Drax
Gish races...what an interesting thought. The section'd have to be broken up into 0-LA, 1-LA, and 2-LA, but I think it's worth looking into. Had I my books right now I'd certainly do it, because the first thing it made me think of was the orogs (deep orc which gets +6 strength and +2 Charisma, uber sorcerer gishes!) and avarials (spelling? I dunno, the flying elves).
Whew, covered the recent stuff, I'm gonna end up staying up fairly late just reading all this stuff and trying to get back into the swing of things...
EDIT: Now that I think about it, this thread IS getting pretty cluttered. I think it's time to take a quick vote: should I remake this thread? One post per section so everything's all together? I wouldn't be able to do this immediately, and I'd definitely need help from my friends here to catch up with new books and stuff, but I do have time soon with work letting up slightly.
Page 1 - Introduction
Page 2 - Races - good idea that I think is quite workable
Page 3 - Ability Scores - should have been added originally, IMO
Page 4 - Classes - will remain the same, plus additions
Page 5 - Prestige Classes - ditto
Page 6 - Feats - ditto
Page 7 - Power and Spells - will add psionics, might be two pages
Page 8 - Armor and Weapons - JK had a good idea here I'd like to continue
Page 9 - Types of Gish - likely to remain the same unless I come up with other archetypes; if this section is kept at all
Page 10 - Hall of Fame - the best gish builds emailed/PMed to me in standard 20-level-format, credited to their inventors
Page 11 - Credits - self explainitory
First, I'd like to mention that the additional sections sound like a great idea, to those who's suggested them I apologize for not being the most...attentive. :P
Also, as the books I've access too are quite limited, I'm going to be relying on submissions from everyone who is willing to help out. All those who do WILL be credited in the Credits section.
Finally, this new version is going to be a closed thread, accessable only by myself and others with access to this account (similar to the FAQ here). This will prevent clutter and provide a clean, detailed environment for everyone to read and enjoy. THIS thread now will still be active, and I'll still post often on it, because it's a great place to keep discussing builds and new ideas before these builds and ideas are finalized and incorporated into the new thread.
To everyone who's helped thus far, muchas gracias and bless you all (*hopes he hasn't butchered what little Spanish used*), I can't gaurentee this will come quickly but rest assured it will be coming. Maybe it'll be a good Christmas present...
You sya it's gonna be a closed thread... how's that? That is, not what it means... but will it be finally linked to the library or something?
I just remember one amazing Gish PrC that I don't quite recall if it has been mentioned... the Harper Paragon (PGtF). One of my favorites, actually.
Suel Arcanamach (CA), though worse than an ordinary Gish, has the advantage of being good in melee at early levels and having more skills as well.
Since I've access to neither of the mentioned prestige classes, would you mind posting a summary of them? Pretty please? :D
Harper Paragon is an exalted PrC, and it has d10 HD, +3/4 BAB, and 4 skill points. Requires 2 exalted feats, favored enemy and some few skills (I guess. It grants full spellcasting progression.
What's best about it is that you gain Favored Enemy: evil as a special feature, at 2 nd level, if I'm not mistaken. Which means youi can take feats like Improved Favored ENemy: evil, and Nemesis (BoED), for a total of +1d6+3 dmg to any evil cratures, per attack. And I'm not even counting new Ranger levels, for the sake of not interrupting spellcasting progression.
Say, an Illumian Ranger 2/Wizard 4/Harper Paragon 8/Eldritch Knight 6 with the above mentioned feats, plus Improved Sigil: Aesh feat and wielding two weapons does +1d6+8 damage per attack! And you have a nice CL of 17th on top of that, and better hps than the average Gish. No armored casting for this one, but remember you can take Fighter levels instead of Ranger - just take the Foe Hunter feat from PGtF (IIRC) and the Human Paragon class for skill requirements.
Suel Arcanamach requires +6 BAB and 2 lame feats, and grants up to 5th level sorcerer spells from certain schools, automatic Extended spells, and some other abilities (Dispelling Strike and a minor ignore ASF). It has d8 HD and 4 skill pts/level, and the biggest drawback is the 3/4 BAB. Combining this PrC with some really powerful PrCs (like Dervish or Champion of Corellon), you might come up with something useful. Aside from that, you gain 3rd level spells in 4 levels, which might be useful for early entry into Sublime Chord:
Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Paladin 2/Warrior Skald 1/Suel Archanamach 4/Sublime Chord 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 7 has nice skills and saves, BAB +18, and 9th level spells. Requires Education and, probably, Practiced Spellcaster as well.
You're right there. It would be a lot better to go melee first, caster later. However, remember three things:
1. You can't take any Gish prestige classes prior to level 7 or 6 (if you go Bard or Battlesorcerer 4/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1). That means that, like all multiclassed spellcasters, you will probably suck in the beginning.
Not true. Rogue or Rok. ninja 3 / caster 2 with the Practised Spellcaster feat will qualify you for Daggerspell Mage.
Not true. Rogue or Rok. ninja 3 / caster 2 with the Practised Spellcaster feat will qualify you for Daggerspell Mage.
No, Practiced Spellcaster does not give you actual caster levels, it only counts for spell effects that are level dependent. So you're still only a second level caster as far as your actual spells go.
No, Practiced Spellcaster does not give you actual caster levels, it only counts for spell effects that are level dependent. So you're still only a second level caster as far as your actual spells go.
The daggerspell mage only requires arcane caster level 5th, not a certain level of spells. The actual text of the feat says, "Your caster level for the chosen spell-casting class increases by 4", then the provisos about HD.
If the guy I learned that from was incorrect, please point me to proof that I can show him. I've looked, and I haven't found it.
You're right there. It would be a lot better to go melee first, caster later. However, remember three things:
1. You can't take any Gish prestige classes prior to level 7 or 6 (if you go Bard or Battlesorcerer 4/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1). That means that, like all multiclassed spellcasters, you will probably suck in the beginning.
Not true. Rogue or Rok. ninja 3 / caster 2 with the Practised Spellcaster feat will qualify you for Daggerspell Mage.
Erm, I fail to see your point. A Daggerspell Mage is not even a Gish, and a rogue 3/caster 2 sucks just as much as a Warrior 1/Caster 4.
Besides, Rokugan Ninja is not WotC, and even then, Rogue or Ninja 3/caster 2 can't qualify to Daggerspell Mage because of feat requirements. That can only be possible if you go Illumian, but you didn't even think about that because Illumians wouldn't need Practiced Spellcaster to begin with (lest the possible earlier entry into DsM).
I've been running a campaign with a Fighter 2/Sorcerer 4 and a Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Daggerspell Mage 1. The DsM is clearly in the worst moment of his entire career, when, as much as he hadn't focused on casting, his BAB is as high as a straight wizard's and he's only a 1st level caster with +2d6 SA. I must warn that he's a lot better in combat than a Rogue 3/caster 2, and, even then, he really sucks so far.
The Gish has feats to spare and does pretty decent damage with Wraithstrike and Power Attack. A constant Extended Mage Armor keeps him alive while he can't take that nifty Spellsword level.
That said, low-level Gishes don't suck thaaaat much... they're perfectly playable, specially if you go Fighter instead of Paladin. At earlier levels, bonus feats are worth a lot more than a crappy Smite Evil and Divine Grace.
Besides, Rokugan Ninja is not WotC, and even then, Rogue or Ninja 3/caster 2 can't qualify to Daggerspell Mage because of feat requirements.
With a BAB of 1 at first level and flaws, yes, he can. Also, the Rok Ninjas are in the list of gish bases. That's the only reason I mentioned it.
With a BAB of 1 at first level and flaws, yes, he can. Also, the Rok Ninjas are in the list of gish bases. That's the only reason I mentioned it.
I never count on flaws or non-WoTC classes in my statements, but not even a flaw would have made any difference. You still can't fill the pre requisites in time. You need Weapon Focus (dagger) and Practiced Spellcaster in 5 levels, and none of the 2 feats can be taken at first level (you need +1 BAB for WF and 4 ranks in Spellcraft to pick PS). So, it could've only been done with Rok. Ninja, but not with Rogue or Ninja (CV).
Even if you went Rok Ninja, you'd still suck, being a lot worse than a straight caster and a little worse than a straight cheesy class 5 (or other smarter combination).
So, I maintain my statements: whatever path you choose, be it legal or nor, if you go multiclass, you'll suck at the first 5 levels or so (unless you go maybe Rogue/Fighter, where you don't really lose anything).
I'm not saying that it would be the strongest, but it should be servicable in the lower levels, and rather decent at higher, especially with sorcs - Two weapon fighting while still casting, more spell slots for Arcane Strike, and eventually the ability to quicken spells, including greater teleports so you can make a full attack.
The only thing I've been trying to say was that it was possible, if he wants to get into it sooner.
The Gish has feats to spare and does pretty decent damage with Wraithstrike and Power Attack.
what book is wraithstrike out of? is it a spell or feat or class feature?
The daggerspell mage only requires arcane caster level 5th, not a certain level of spells. The actual text of the feat says, "Your caster level for the chosen spell-casting class increases by 4", then the provisos about HD.
If the guy I learned that from was incorrect, please point me to proof that I can show him. I've looked, and I haven't found it.
Okay, looking at the Feat, I suppose you could interpret it that way. However, I personally think it's really cheesy and highly doubt that any sane DM would let you use it in that way. I guess this is one of those RAW vs RAI scenarios; my bet is that they intended "Arcane caster level 5th" to mean "has five levels of an arcane spellcasting class that grants spells at every level." But I suppose your mileage may vary.
Besides, the cheesiest early-entry to a Prestige Class involves taking Master of Shrouds (Libris Mortis) as your 3rd character level. And that doesn't even require Practiced Spellcaster.
Its a 2nd level wizard/sorceror spell out of complete adventurer and it rocks. My epic arcane trickster has used it to devastating effect in dragon form while invisible.
what does wraithstrike do that makes it so awsome? i dont have CV in front of me.
It's great.
+16 BAB and 17th level Wizard spellcasting at caster level 20 with Practiced Spellcaster by 20th level.
This is the ultimate buffing character. With Metamagic Effect from Incantrix you can make any Personal range spell Persistent. Get an item which grants a Competence bonus to Spellcraft and always take 10 on the check. Cooperative Metamagic also allows your allies/cohort to have Persistent spells on them, especially nice with a Ring of Spell Storing. Draconic Polymorph into a Firbolg/War Troll/Etc. and Alter Self back into yourself for awesome stats without looking like a monster. Power Attack with Persistent Wraithstrike should be an obvious choice.
Elf Wizard 6/ Incantrix 10/ Dragon Slayer 1/ Spellsword 1/ Archmage 2
Full spellcasting and +11 BAB by level 20. Take Otherworldly (PGtF) if you can to Polymorph into an Arrow Demon. Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot should be taken early for bows and rays, then use light armor and martial weapons later on. Excellent primary spellcaster, decent secondary archer, and the monsters will probably think he's a Ranger from his appearance.
Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Incantrix 4/ Eldritch Knight 9
Taking 4 levels of a good arcane PrC is, most of the times, a good idea... you lose nothing but 2 BAB and a few hps, compared to EK, and you get a huge trade off. I usually try to stay away from Archmage, though, as the feat requirements are too harsh and you have to spend some combat feats, too.
Some other 4-level dips I like are:
- Spellguard of Silverymoon (PGtF)
- War Mage (Age of Mortals)
- Mage of the Arcane Order (CA; not sure if 4 levels are really worth it, but 2 are excellent for Sorcerers and, specially to warmages)
- Initiate of the 7 Fold Veil (CA; only worth it if using flaws and you pick Human Paragon to offset the feat requirements)
SoSm and WM are my favorites, as they both net bonus feats as well.
I'm currently playing with the idea of a greatsword-using gish who focuses heavily on specializing with the weapon, self-buffing/polymorphing, and support/offensive casting. Fighter4 / Sorcerer4 / Spellsword5 / Eldritch Knight7 looks good right now (BAB 18, Caster Level 13); Arcane Strike, WF/WS (greatsword), Improved Crit (greatsword), Power Attack, and the spells sadism, masochism, draconic polymorph (war troll baby) and wraith strike. I'll flesh it out later if I have time.
Illumian
Ranger 2/Fighter 4/Suel Arcanamach 4/Harper Paragon 4/Spellsword 3/Exotic Weapon Master 1
is only level 18, but has BAB +16, full Suel casting (5th level spells), flurry, 6 bonus feats, access to the Improved Sigil: aesh feat (+6 damage with chosen double weapon) and Weapon Specialization feats, Favored Enemy: evil, can cast spells in mithril chainmail (after all, you still must wear light armor because of Ranger), has excellent saves (Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +9), much better hp than the average Gish (9d8+9d10), and still has 2 levels to spare.
Requires lots of feats, though. Alternatively, you could go Suel 8 instead of Suel 4/Harper 4 and pick 2 levels of Stalker of Karash for the favored enemy: evil thingy.
This is the ultimate buffing character. With Metamagic Effect from Incantrix you can make any Personal range spell Persistent.
Actually by the wording this would also include non-instantaneous spells with a range of touch (this has changed in 3.5), thus allowing you to persistently buff the whole party. I don't think any DM would allow it though.
Also I was experimenting with an archer gish that includes cleric level to make use of the elf and war domains. It didn't turn out to be of any use though.
Ftr2/Clr7/ND1/SS3/EK5/MT2
BAB: +16
CL(ND): 16 (9 levels spell progression + 7 Clr)
CL(Clr): 9
Ftr2/Clr1/Wiz4/SS3/EK10
BAB: +17
CL: 16
both suck IMO. I just wanted to know if my skills at minmaxing are that bad, or if it's just the idea that doen't work out ... which pretty much includes the former anyway.
by the way, was just looking at this but..
Elf or Half Elf
Battle Sorcerer 8/Master of Yuirwood 10/Dragon Slayer1/Spell Sword 1
Gives you Proficiency with all Simple and Martial Weapons, all armor types and shields including tower shields.
15 BAB, caster level 20, 9th level spells. You also get Aura of Courage like a paladin, ignore arcane spell failure 10% (though you can ignore it altogether if its light armor.) +1 damage vs dragons, charisma to saves, a form of gate that works like a 1 way portal to just about anywhere both to and from 10/day so long as he knows about the destination (There are some restrictions though.) Speak with animals at will, pass without trace 1/day (up to 10 creatures effected.) uncanny dodge and improved uncanndy dodge, and of course summon familiar, and the single greatest thing i like about this is that you manage to keep a impressive amount of hit points, due to the d8's from battle sorcerer, the d8's from master of yuir wood, and d10 from dragon slayer, and d8 from spellsword.
There are to ways to make the hardest qualification part of this easy for a sorcerer the first way requires the use of the Skill Knowledge Feat from Unearthed Arcana and thus select survival as a permenate class skill, but this way can be flawed if you DM doesnt want you to use such a feat, the second way is pretty much the most legit way.. just take Draconic Heritage Bronze Dragon, in which case Survival becomes a class skill for you always.
in either case, you only need to spend 4 feats to qualify for all the mentioned classes, having a familiar grants you the fifth feat need for Master of Yuirwood.
Where is the battle sorceror class? Please!
Fortunately for you, almost all of UA is OGL. Here's a link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleSorcerer
Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +17
BAB +16, 9th level spells (full SC progression)
fair hps (6d6+1d10+13d8)
Possible Cha to hit/dmg (Snowflake Wardance + Divine Might)
So, this build grants you the incredible Channel Spell ability from Spellsword with no real cost to your spell progression. You'll still have 2 bonus feats, and will still take Sublime Chord at 11th level. I've just made this up, and it's already my favorite Gish build. Notice that you don't delay your SC progression either. You could as well go SE 4/EK 4 instead of SE 8 for the extra feat and +1 BAB. Downgrade is that you have few Bard levels, and, thus, not many Bardic Music usages to fuel your Snowflake Wardance... so, consider picking Extra Music. I don't think it's really necessary, though.
Wizard 4/Fighter 1/Runesmith 4 (RoS)/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10
CL 20 (w/Practiced Spellcaster), 9th lvl spells, can cast in armor w/o arcane spell failure. BAB 16.
Bard 4/Fighter 1/Spellsword 5/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 8
...Downgrade is that you have few Bard levels, and, thus, not many Bardic Music usages to fuel your Snowflake Wardance... so, consider picking Extra Music. I don't think it's really necessary, though.
The other downside is meeting the beefy skill requirements for sublime chord - you'll need good int, be human, and/or pick up the able learner feat, as you'll have 6 levels of crossclassing some of the required skills, like listen and perform. Still, it's a great combat build if you can make the reqs.
Druid 3/Hexblade 3/Beastmaster 1/Ranger 1/Suel Arcanamach 2/Divine Crusader 2/Arcane Hierophant 8
+15 BAB
Saves: F +14/R +12/W +18
Casting: 5th level Arcanamach spells, 9th level Divine Crusader spells, both Charisma-based (and 2nd level Druid spells)
Wildshape: Druid 11
Familiar Companion: level 15 animal companion, level 10 familiar
No arcane spell failure in druidic armor
Charisma bonus to save vs. spells
Mettle
Pick a good domain for the divine crusader; maybe Trickery for Invisibility, Polymorph Any Object and Time Stop. Charisma is used for both spell lists + hexblade save bonus.
Dou you think that is possible to hold two spells in a sword at the same time with a spell storing sword and the chanel spell from the spellsword?
Yep. Three, if you get Multiple Channel Spell. Just remember that the abilities work differently.
Yep. Three, if you get Multiple Channel Spell. Just remember that the abilities work differently.
Four, with Raumathari's Battlemage Channel Spell ability :D
human bard4/paladin2/memory smith4/sublime chord2/sacred exorcist4/EK4
Feats:
1.Able learner, words of creation.
3.devoted peformer
6.snowflake wardance
9.PA
12.Divine might
15.TWF
16.ITWF
18.GTWF
BaB:17,Spells: as 9th level SC, in mithral breastplate.
It has cha for casting, to hit, to damage & to saves. Buff yourself for combat with divine power, favour (i think thats added to your known list...) & draconic polymorph. The you sing inspire courage for +8hit/damage (& a small amount of subdual damage) & snowflake wardance/divine might for an exceptionaly high damage turn.
Prerequisites:
Wizard level 7+, Base attack bonus +5, Knowledge (anatomy) 10 ranks, War Wizard Tactics
When using your War Wizard Tactics feat, you modify your damage by your Int modifier instead of your Str modifier.
No more need to multiclass into swashbuckler eh?
Improved War Wizard Tactics Quintessential Wizard
Prerequisites:
Wizard level 7+, Base attack bonus +5, Knowledge (anatomy) 10 ranks, War Wizard Tactics
When using your War Wizard Tactics feat, you modify your damage by your Int modifier instead of your Str modifier.
No more need to multiclass into swashbuckler eh?
The quintessential series are horrible books with lots of broken stuff... however, being 3rd-party material, they're not widely accepted in the boards. Aside from that, the graphics are among the worts in the RPG history!
BAB+16 CL: 17
Pros: Free Still Spell (Wail of the Banshee is so much better when you cast it from behind an animated tower shield and adamantine full plate); new spells cost only 100gp to scribe; 4 bonus feats; no feat requirements
Cons: Low BAB until mid to high levels; steep skill requirements reuire an 18 Int at 1st level or the Open Minded or Nymph's Kiss feats; fewer spell slots for Arcane Strike
Note: Yeah, I know Geometer doesn't really belong in a Gish build, and the spellsword level is dead weight since you already have full casting in heavy armor, but I like paying 100gp poer spell learned, and the requirements for spellsword synergize nicely with those of Geometer. Feel free to swap out spellsword for any other low requirement class that grants +1 BAB and +1CL.
Feel free to swap out spellsword for any other low requirement class that grants +1 BAB and +1CL.
There is no sduch thing... Spellsword 1 rulez!
There is no sduch thing... Spellsword 1 rulez!
No kidding! What is up with all the people that think SS1 isn't good, or is worse than a level of EK?
I mean look at this most recent post
Feel free to swap out spellsword for any other low requirement class that grants +1 BAB and +1CL.
What other low requirement class that grants +1 BAB, +1CL, 2 good saves, and a d8 or higher hitdie at level 1? For that matter, what low requirement class grants just +1 BAB and +1 CL at level 1? Not bladesinger, not dragonslayer, not havoc mage, not master harper, not master of yuirwood, not rage mage, not raumathari battlemage, not sacred exorcist, not EK, and not KP, that's for sure. They're either high requirement or don't grant +1 BAB +1 CL or usually, both!
Sorry to rant but I see it so much -_-
True enough, you only need 1 level of Cyran Avenger for the avenging strike, or 3 levels if you want ranged avenging strike. However, with d8 HD and 4 skill points, it's totally worth it to pick all 5 levels.
Now, Avenging Strike requires high Cha for more usages/day; so, maybe the best choice is to go Star Elf or Spirit Folk, grab the otherworldly feat and polymorph, forgetting your physical stats altogether:
Spirit Folk Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Cyran Avenger 5/Sacred Exorcist 8
BAB +16, CL 17th.
Star Elf Ranger 1/Bard 8/Cyran Avenger 1/Sublime Chord 2/Cyran Avenger +4/Sacred Exorcist 3/Spellsword 1
BAB +16, full SC casting, tons of skills, Cha to a lot of stuff. You might as well o Bard 7/Fighter 1, if that bonus feat is necessary.
3.0 Psionics! Aiiieeeee!No kidding! What is up with all the people that think SS1 isn't good, or is worse than a level of EK?
I mean look at this most recent post
What other low requirement class that grants +1 BAB, +1CL, 2 good saves, and a d8 or higher hitdie at level 1? For that matter, what low requirement class grants just +1 BAB and +1 CL at level 1? Not bladesinger, not dragonslayer, not havoc mage, not master harper, not master of yuirwood, not rage mage, not raumathari battlemage, not sacred exorcist, not EK, and not KP, that's for sure. They're either high requirement or don't grant +1 BAB +1 CL or usually, both!
Sorry to rant but I see it so much -_-
Dragonslayer gives you d10 HD, 2 good saves, +1 CL and +1 BAB, Immunity to fear, and Full Armor proficiencies including Tower Shield at the cost of 2 feats and a couple of low rank skills. IIRC you need Heavy Armor proficiency to get into Spellsword, right ? So unless you've already got a level in Fighter, Dragonslayer is actualy a fairly low pre-req PrC that can help gain you entry into SS !
SS is looked down on because it's 1/2 CL progression, not because it's 1st level is lame. It's 1st level rocks. Dragon Slayers 1st level rocks. I'd rather take DS1/SS1 than SS2 in any build that had a space for Iron Will and Dodge (neither of which are spectacular, but both can be handy).
Dragonslayer gives you d10 HD, 2 good saves, +1 CL and +1 BAB, Immunity to fear, and Full Armor proficiencies including Tower Shield at the cost of 2 feats and a couple of low rank skills. IIRC you need Heavy Armor proficiency to get into Spellsword, right ? So unless you've already got a level in Fighter, Dragonslayer is actualy a fairly low pre-req PrC that can help gain you entry into SS !
Two feats that you usually have to go completely out of your way for is not what I considered "low requirement" for a PrC. Gish need all the open feats they can get if they want to be an effective combatant. And besides that, nearly every gish build has a level of fighter, paladin, or similar before level 6 anyway. If you don't take any fighter/paladin levels and let 2 feats get eaten up for PrCing at level 6, then you're going to be pretty far behind in combat effectiveness because you've skipped or delayed much better feats.
I'd rather take DS1/SS1 than SS2 in any build that had a space for Iron Will and Dodge (neither of which are spectacular, but both can be handy).
And there are feats that would benefit you much more, though dodge is the exception if you're going for certain feats that have it as a prereq like elusive target, karmic strike, and/or side step. Iron will isn't that great as gishes tend to have nice will saves anyway. But, your choice is your own. I'd prefer to have 3 extra open feats (enough to get a tactical feat, or practiced spellcaster + arcane strike + improved toughness for example) rather than 1 more base CL and slightly better base HD/saves for a gish build.
I agree with you that the first level of dragonslayer rocks, but I think blowing two feats for that one level dip really makes the overall worth much less. Few builds (if any) use both dodge and iron will for other reasons than just a 1 level dip in dragonslayer. Builds that even bother with dodge are probably going to be feat intensive anyway, since as mentioned earlier, it's going to be taken as a prereq for better feats to really be worth the feat slot.
Bard 3/Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Cyran Avenger 5/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 7/Spellsword 1
Cha defines the number of uses of Avenging Strike, as well your damage due to Divine Might, and to hit (Snowflake Wardance). 2 weapon fighting is essential. Full Sublime Progression, 3 bonus feats, and good skill points until 12th level.
rokugan ninja6/corrupt avenger5/warriorskald1/sublimechord8
A really quite insane Gish build, i think it has probaly the most stupid way ever to qualify for sublime chord! BaB18, good spells, cha to saves & some SA.
i also like:
magic blooded human
rokugan ninja5/assassin5/warriorskald1/sublimechord1/EK8*
*this is for BaB reasons only, i much prefer daggerspellmage or a slightly modified homebrew Ek (+1D6SA at first & 4skills/level).
fighter1/wizard4/sentinelofbharrai4/spellsword1/eldritchknight10, BAB 16, CL 18
Sentiel of Bharrai is from Book of Exhalted Deeds and it's third level abiltiy lets you turn into a blavk, brown, or polar bear for as long as you want as many times you want and even granted you speech in bear form so all you'd need is still spell and eschew materials to cast spells in bear form. In addition you'd also get energy resistance 10 against 2 forms of energy, the track feat, and a quickened call lightening once a day. So basically you have a spellcasting bear.
PsyRog1/Hexblade3/Psyrog1/War Mind5/Sanctified Mind6/Any Full BaB class(Something that could get wraithstrike could be nice.).
Evasion, Mettle, Double-Digit Saves 4 Attacks per round, tons of abilites from War Mind and Sanctified Mind, and if you take able learner at level 1, you can pretty easily triple-threat your way through stuff. You end up burning 1 feat, so that's pretty cool. You can even dump-stat CHA if you feel a bit MAD. Personally, i'd go human for the race and use straight 14s except for 12 int, and 16 strength on a 32 point point buy.
Race=Human
Stat priority is probably Int, Con, Str, Dex, Wis, Cha. Try and put at least a 13 into strength, power attack is the bomb with the wraithstrike spell (2nd level, from Complete Arcane)
- Fighter 1 (Feats: Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Improved Initiative (B))
- Wizard 1 (Feat: Scribe Scroll (B))
- Wizard 2 (Feat: Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard)
- Wizard 3
- Wizard 4
- Wizard 5 (Feats: Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor (B))
- Eldritch Knight 1 (Power Attack (B))
- Spellsword 1
- Eldritch Knight 2 (Feats: Arcane Strike)
- Eldritch Knight 3
- Eldritch Knight 4
- Eldritch Knight 5 (Arcane Disciple: Competition)
- Eldritch Knight 6
- Eldritch Knight 7
- Eldritch Knight 8 (Persistent Spell)
- Eldritch Knight 9
- Eldritch Knight 10
- Wizard 6 (Extraordinary Spell Aim)
- Spellsword 2 (Leap Attack (B))
- Spellsword 3
It feels really weird to take metamagic feats before you have spellcasting, but this build is really frontloaded on feats and thus has to take quicken spell and extend spell real early. Unfortunate but at first level just get yourself some scale mail and a heavy shield and tank it. Once you hit fourth level try to have shield, mage armor (Or get a mithral chain shirt and deal with the ASFC), and alter self=> troglodyte on as much as possible to increase your survivability. Try spend as much of the early levels as a backup spellcaster if your party dynamics allow for it. If you have to fight try to have Fist of Stone (from complete arcane) up as it drastically increases your strength and gives you an extra natural attack.
At 6th level you get to start cranking out items for the party, and they will love you for this. Dont forget your own headband of intellect when you hit level 8(proper planning usually means that you can afford a +6 at this stage). Next up should be an amulet of health and a magical falchion. I like Cold Iron weapons myself as they are only 2000 gp more and punch through demon and fey dr, demons being fairly common enemies in a lot of campaigns. Sometimes you can stay at 8th for a while cranking out the stat-boosting items.
At 9th you really come into your own. You get arcane strike, which if you can afford the spell slots drastically increases your damage potential. Also you get 4th level spells. A favorite combo of mine at this point is Polymorph into hydra, wraithstrike, and power attack for some ridiculous amounts of damage. You can also grapple your opponent for more screwiness (remember that grapple checks do not take the penalty for power attacking but gain the bonus on damage).
At 12th level you take Arcane Disciple: Competition. This gives you access to the creme de la creme as far as clerical buff spells go. It gives you the perennial Divine Power, the solid Righteous Might, and the 9th level Greater Visage of the Deity. Mainly at this point you should be casting divine power on yourself for awesomeness, and if at all possible make yourself a belt of divine power (impossible to make at non-epic levels unless you use some form of price-reduction) for a continuous effect. Frankly as many as possible of your spell effects should be on items in case of MDJ past this stage.
In campaigns where Competition is not available, such as one set in Forgotten Realms, I would suggest War instead. Divine Power is that good. Failing that, take Craft Staff. Real useful feat.
At 15th level, the first level where you can really make use of it, you get Persistent Spell. Keep Fist of Stone persisted, as well as all of those "Swift" spells, Fist of Stone in particular because it gives you another attack in addition to your bonus from haste. It also follows you when you polymorph into forms that dont have slam attacks (hydras come to mind).
At 18th level, you take extaordinary spell aim. In addition to being an amazingly useful feat, the particular use of it that i am fond of is using it with amf, thus denying your opponent targetted spells on you. At this level people are loaded down with magical equipment, so cast this and get in their grill. With their magic gone, and with you casting Wraithstrike (target personal) you should have no problem hitting them while power attacking to the max, dealing pretty impressive damage.
At 19th level i just put in Leap Attack, really this feat is not too crucial. I could imagine taking dodge at this point to set me up for Elusive Target in low epic, but there are other feats that i'd like to take in low epic (like epic spellcasting). I've only ever gotten this build here once, so i don't realy have much to say here. Shapechange into chokers when spellslinging, and turn into bad-***** angel or demon (greater visage of the deity) when meleeing.
Just got Races of Stone, and am interested with runesmith. This build is pretty light on armor (mithral chain shirt usually being sufficient) and it might be cool to run around with a master's touch on a suit of battle plate.
The good thing about a melee-oriented Gish is that you can hold your own in melee quite well, needing only a little spell support to outfight your fellow warriors. That said, my suggestion would be to have Str as your higher stat, possibly pick Fighter 2 (so that you are useful at lower levels) and avoid yes-save spells.
Just my two cents.
Character build: 1 Barbarian/6 Wizard/10 Rage Mage/3 Spellsword
BAB: +15
CL: 13
This seems kind of 'eh', even with the Rage Mage's abilities? Any advice would be appreciated.
Hmm...would the following build be okay? I can't go into a lot of detail now; I'm at school and about to head home. (I'll try to calculate saves and whatnot later.) However, I'm not sure whether or not the sacrificed caster levels would be worth the somewhat gimpy bonus to BAB.
Character build: 1 Barbarian/6 Wizard/10 Rage Mage/3 Spellsword
BAB: +15
CL: 13
This seems kind of 'eh', even with the Rage Mage's abilities? Any advice would be appreciated.
Swap the rage mage levels for eldritch knight levels, the gains in BAB and CL more than offset the loss of rage mage abilities. Also you need to take heavy armor profiency as a feat to qualify for spellsword.
Terraneaux: have you played with this build already? I ask this because I heavily suggest a higher investment on combat skills than magic for Gishes. If you plan to fight fully buffed, with Divine Power, Shapechange, Visage of the Deity and whatlike, you're probably better off with a straight caster.
The good thing about a melee-oriented Gish is that you can hold your own in melee quite well, needing only a little spell support to outfight your fellow warriors. That said, my suggestion would be to have Str as your higher stat, possibly pick Fighter 2 (so that you are useful at lower levels) and avoid yes-save spells.
Just my two cents.
I've run through this build a few times, once to 19th level (from 3rd). The thing is that Strength is ridiculously easy to buff once you hit level 9, whereas intelligence is not. Oftentimes, in low levels with this build how long you can stay offensively powerful in combat is very dependent on your spell slots, thus the high intelligence. This build is pretty melee-oriented overall, and while its true that it has a relatively small amount of hit points, its ac is pretty high. The Visage of the Deity thing is mainly for the evil version of it that grants you extra attacks, because every attack at that point is generating like 50 extra damage, and you should be able to get something around 11 of them.
Swap the rage mage levels for eldritch knight levels, the gains in BAB and CL more than offset the loss of rage mage abilities. Also you need to take heavy armor profiency as a feat to qualify for spellsword.
*Cries.* I really wanted the Rage Mage class, as I think the idea is pretty cool, but the BAB is only 3/4th...ack. Is there any way to rememdy this? (I suppose I could take EK instead of additional SS levels; I just wanted the first level for -10% ASF).
.Though I'm thinking Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10 might be a pretty solid build (*gack*! Two feats for armor proficiency, unfortunately!) I suppose I could go Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 5/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10 would be okay. However, I would prefer a CL 16, though with CL 15 I at least get level 8 spells.
EDIT: Here are my ideas:
Character: Arcane Duelist
Swashbuckler (3): Weapon Finesse (free), Weapon Focus: Rapier (feat), Grace +1, Insightful Strike, Weapon Specialization: Rapier (feat).
+3 BAB, +3/+1/+1 saves.
Wizard (6): Scribe Scroll (free), Summon Familiar (free), Improved Critical (feat), [Undecided] (bonus feat).
+3 BAB, +2/+2/+5 saves.
Eldritch Knight (1): Armor Proficiency: Heavy (bonus feat), Power Attack (feat).
+1 BAB, +2/+0+/0 saves.
Spellsword (1): Ignore Spell Failure 10%
+1 BAB, +2/+0/+2 saves.
Eldritch Knight (8): Arcane Strike (feat), Combat Casting (feat), [Undecided] (feat).
+9 BAB (cumulative), +6/+3/+3 saves (cumulative).
Overall character stats:
BAB: +16
Saves: +13/+6/+11
Caster level: 15
Character: Ragecaster
Barbarian (1): Fast movement, illiteracy, rage 1/day, Weapon Focus: [Undecided, perhaps falchion] (feat).
+1 BAB, +2/+0/+0 saves.
Wizard (6): Scribe Scroll (free), Summon Familiar (free), Weapon Specialization: [Undecided] (feat), [Undecided] (bonus feat).
+3 BAB, +2/+2/+5 saves.
Rage Mage (2): Spell Rage 1/day, Overcome Spell Failure (-10% ASF), Armor Proficiency: Heavy (feat).
+1 BAB, +3/+0/+0 saves.
Spellsword (1): Ignore Spell Failure 10%
+1 BAB, +2/+0/+2 saves.
Rage Mage (8): Rage +2 uses/day, Spell Rage 3/day, Spell Fury, Tireless Rage, Warrior Cry, Weapon Specialization: [Undecided] (feat), Arcane Strike (feat), Practiced Spellcaster (feat).
+7 BAB (cumulative), +7/+3/+3 saves (cumulative).
Wizard (2): N/A
+4 BAB (cumulative), +2/+2/+6 saves (cumulative).
Overall character stats:
BAB: +13 (meh)
Saves: +13/+5/+11
Caster Level: 14 (meh)
As you can see, there are two 'meh' portions of the Ragecaster. Any ideas on improving those for the win? Thanks
.(NOTE: I have not decided on race for either class. Ragecaster would probably be Human for the extra feat; unsure of Arcane Duelist.)
swashbucklers don't qualify for spellsword - no heavy armour prof.
I know, which is why I took the Armor Proficiency: Heavy feat in my build.
Can anyone help with the "Ragecaster", though? I'm more interested in him (for now).
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entryswell as Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
from the SRD
Would that not make the neraphim (planar handbook) capable of taking SS without any fighter levels? Its not described as wearing any armour in that its only got "racial traits" and not a stat block like most monsters so it's kind of up in the air...
Armor Proficiency: Heavy feat
what a shame that feat doesnt exist...
from the SRD
what a shame that feat doesnt exist...
It is people like you who wear down my ability to hold my tongue and keep conversation civil.
I obviously meant Armor Proficiency (Heavy) for the feat. Perhaps you would reference your materials and spend your time on an activity more worthwhile than nitpicking my phrasing of a feat. Everyone else here seems polite enough that they will overlook my neophyte errors, such as referring to Complete Warrior as Complete Fighter.
Now, if you would take your leave...
Please? Help? (Sorry for being a pest ;).)
The only advice I can give is: don't go Ragecatser, as it sucks so much.
I dunno, dude, maybe you should try the classic Gish replacing a fighter level with barbarian, for Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Caster 4/Spellsword etc.
You could also choose the savage bard for a barbaric feel and go Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Bard 8/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8. I guess that's the closest you could get to the concept you want without utterly sucking.
If you do choose the arcane duelist route, though, I highly recommend Champion of Corellon and Suiblime Chord:
Bard 7/Fighter 2/Champion of Corellon 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 8
Dex + Cha to damage (divine might).
bard4/fighter1/sentenilofbharrai4/spellsword1/sublimechord2/eldritchknight8, BAB 16, 9th level spells, bearshape as long as you want
The only advice I can give is: don't go Ragecatser, as it sucks so much.
I dunno, dude, maybe you should try the classic Gish replacing a fighter level with barbarian, for Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Caster 4/Spellsword etc.
You could also choose the savage bard for a barbaric feel and go Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Bard 8/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8. I guess that's the closest you could get to the concept you want without utterly sucking.
If you do choose the arcane duelist route, though, I highly recommend Champion of Corellon and Suiblime Chord:
Bard 7/Fighter 2/Champion of Corellon 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 8
Dex + Cha to damage (divine might).
Noooooo, Rage Mage must not suck!
Lol. You know, does WotC ever really test their characters to prevent issues like these?
EDIT: Can anyone give me a link to sites with the PRCs like Champion of Corellon and Dragonslayer? I'm kind of not allowed to own any books (more complex than what you might assume, but we'll just say that my parents, although they share the same beliefs as me, think D&D is going to lead me into the occult or something).
I obviously meant Armor Proficiency (Heavy) for the feat
well, i was being civil. No such feat exists. You can take heavy armour proficiency (fullplate) for example but that would only allow you to use full plate and would NOT qualify you for spell sword. Proficiency in an armour catergory can only be gained through class, race or sometimes magic (such as a weapon with the skillful enhancement for example).
Perhaps you would reference your materials and spend your time on an activity more worthwhile than nitpicking my phrasing of a feat.
You mean like
neraphim (planar handbook)...
yeah i really should have done that. I was doing something useful, i went onto the SRD to try and find a way for you to have heavy armour prof. without taking a different class.
The first 2 levels of almost all 3.0/3.5 prcs can be found on crystal keep, i don't have a link, just google it.
well, i was being civil. No such feat exists. You can take heavy armour proficiency (fullplate) for example but that would only allow you to use full plate and would NOT qualify you for spell sword. Proficiency in an armour catergory can only be gained through class, race or sometimes magic (such as a weapon with the skillful enhancement for example).
Actually, comparing the weapon proficiency feats with the armor proficiency feats, as well as the simple weapon proficiency feat with the martial and exotic weapon proficiencies...
MARTIAL WEAPON PROFICIENCY [GENERAL]
Choose a type of martial weapon. You understand how to use that type of martial weapon in combat.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally.
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select this feat.
You can gain Martial Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
SIMPLE WEAPON PROFICIENCY [GENERAL]
Benefit: You make attack rolls with simple weapons normally.
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: All characters except for druids, monks, and wizards are automatically proficient with all simple weapons. They need not select this feat.
ARMOR PROFICIENCY (LIGHT) [GENERAL]
Benefit: When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble checks.
Normal: A character who is wearing armor with which she is not proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving, including Ride.
Special: All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.
ARMOR PROFICIENCY (HEAVY) [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Armor Proficiency (light), Armor Proficiency (medium).
Benefit: See Armor Proficiency (light).
Normal: See Armor Proficiency (light).
Special: Fighters, paladins, and clerics automatically have Armor Proficiency (heavy) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.
Emphasis mine. Note the similarities between simple weapon prof. and the armor proficiencies, in the lack of any derivative of the word "select" (or any distinction at all for that matter) at the beginning and middle of the feats, as well as the lack of text regarding taking the feat multiple times? Also notice the way the last sentences are structured. For armor, it's listed as a single bonus feat, rather than saying "all light armors" or "all heavy armors" and so on.
I think given the evidence, armor proficiencies grant you the full range of armors for the type selected. I hope you now understand why offense was taken to your no-compromise confidence in the matter of the mechanics of the armor proficiency feats.
The general consencus on the boards is that it's the latter. Im basing this opinion on that people take 2 practicallly useless feats to get into dragonslayer and in doing so gain heavy armour proficiency without losing a caster level. Why would we bother if you could take 1 feat for the same effect?
Actually, comparing the weapon proficiency feats with the armor proficiency feats, as well as the simple weapon proficiency feat with the martial and exotic weapon proficiencies...
Emphasis mine. Note the similarities between simple weapon prof. and the armor proficiencies, in the lack of any derivative of the word "select" (or any distinction at all for that matter) at the beginning and middle of the feats, as well as the lack of text regarding taking the feat multiple times? Also notice the way the last sentences are structured. For armor, it's listed as a single bonus feat, rather than saying "all light armors" or "all heavy armors" and so on.
I think given the evidence, armor proficiencies grant you the full range of armors for the type selected. I hope you now understand why offense was taken to your no-compromise confidence in the matter of the mechanics of the armor proficiency feats.
Thank. You. Very. Much.
If it is per specific armor...that is pretty dumb.
Im basing this opinion on that people take 2 practicallly useless feats to get into dragonslayer and in doing so gain heavy armour proficiency without losing a caster level. Why would we bother if you could take 1 feat for the same effect?
Well, the class does grant 2 good saves, a d10 hitdie, 1 BAB point, 1 caster level, a little bonus vs dragons, and immunity to fear all in one level...
But more importantly, in builds like Wizard8/DS1/SS1/EK10, and other builds I've seen that use dragonslayer to qualify for spellsword have no fighting class levels, such as ranger, swashbuckler, or similar, for the purpose you pointed out - not losing a caster level. Spellsword requires proficiency in all armors and weapons. So, as a PAC, you're not burning one feat, but four (militia plus all three armor proficiency feats). So, spend four feats on armor/weapon proficiencies, or spend three feats that result in some payoff (both inthemselves and from the 1 level dip you get), while accomplishing your goal of aquiring all armor proficiencies? I think the choice is obviously in favor in the latter, especially considering not using the dragonslayer dip in the build I mentioned above will most likely result in either a loss in a caster level or a point of BAB - Wizard9/SS1/EK10 or Wizard8/SS3/EK9, for example. One might fit in the CW bladesinger instead of dragonslayer, but that takes even more feats.
For that matter, I've never seen anyone else interpret the armor proficiency feats as working the same way as martial and exotic weapon proficiency feats, but if you have any examples I'd like to see them.
Monk1: SF, IUS, Dodge
Monk2: Combat Reflexes
Monk2/Sorceror1: Mobility
Monk2/Sorceror2
Monk2/Sorceror3
Monk2/Sorceror4: Ascetic Mage
Monk2/Sorceror4/Enlightened Fist1
Monk2/Sorceror4/Enlightened Fist2
Monk2/Sorceror4/Enlightened Fist3: Arcane Strike
Monk2/Sorceror4/Enlightened Fist4:
Monk2/Sorceror4/Enlightened Fist4/Arcane Duelist1
Monk2/Sorceror4/Enlightened Fist4/Arcane Duelist2???
Monk2/Sorceror4/Enlightened Fist4/Arcane Duelist3
Monk2/Sorceror4/Enlightened Fist5/Arcane Duelist3
Monk2/Sorceror4/Enlightened Fist6/Arcane Duelist3???
Monk2/Sorceror4/Enlightened Fist7/Arcane Duelist3
Monk2/Sorceror4/Enlightened Fist8/Arcane Duelist3
Monk2/Sorceror4/Enlightened Fist9/Arcane Duelist3???
Monk2/Sorceror4/Enlightened Fist10/Arcane Duelist3
Monk2/Sorceror4/Enlightened Fist10/Arcane Duelist3/???
This build is actually 19 levels. While only obtaining 3 iterative attacks, the build makes up for it by finessing its attacks with Wraithstrike, Arcane strike, and Flurry. I think I might need a Swashbuckler level to get the weapon proficiencies though. I could also go with lesser Drow as a race to grab the profs, leaving me a free level. I would love to jimmy in some Hexblade for Mettle and some saves, but where? Perhaps dumping a level of Monk, but I'd want to dump one more.
Well, the class does grant 2 good saves, a d10 hitdie, 1 BAB point, 1 caster level, a little bonus vs dragons, and immunity to fear all in one level...
But more importantly, in builds like Wizard8/DS1/SS1/EK10, and other builds I've seen that use dragonslayer to qualify for spellsword have no fighting class levels, such as ranger, swashbuckler, or similar, for the purpose you pointed out - not losing a caster level. Spellsword requires proficiency in all armors and weapons. So, as a PAC, you're not burning one feat, but four (militia plus all three armor proficiency feats). So, spend four feats on armor/weapon proficiencies, or spend three feats that result in some payoff (both inthemselves and from the 1 level dip you get), while accomplishing your goal of aquiring all armor proficiencies? I think the choice is obviously in favor in the latter, especially considering not using the dragonslayer dip in the build I mentioned above will most likely result in either a loss in a caster level or a point of BAB - Wizard9/SS1/EK10 or Wizard8/SS3/EK9, for example. One might fit in the CW bladesinger instead of dragonslayer, but that takes even more feats.
For that matter, I've never seen anyone else interpret the armor proficiency feats as working the same way as martial and exotic weapon proficiency feats, but if you have any examples I'd like to see them.
How are you qualifying for Dragonslayer before 11th level with just levels in wizard? It requires a +5 BAB.
If you just use dragonslayer, and dont take any +1 BAB classes until 11th level, the best BAB you can get is +15. Using militia or taking a level of fighter where that's not an option can get you a +16 or better.
human paladin4/rogue3/shadowbane inquisitor3/Suel arcanamach4/witchhunter2/shadowcraft mage4*
* uses adaption as suggested in RoS.
1.PA,improved toughness
3.iron will
6.devoted inquisitor
9.combat casting
12.spell focus (iilusion)
15.divine might
18.extra spell (hound of doom)
it has 5th level spells and 16 BAB. OK skills aswell. Heavy cha use is also present.
But the best part is how this character acts as a NPC. He's so shadowy & mysterious, appears evil, yet he is righteous, maybe even fanatical in his devotion. He shifts in the shadows and weapons don't often find hm (cloak of shadows). Lastly theres the massive shadowy dog whch follows him around
or spend three feats that result in some payoff (both inthemselves and from the 1 level dip you get)
Since dragonslayer only requires 2 feats for entry, I was inferring the third feat to be militia. I thought the build mentioned above and its method for getting into DS without a fighting class was more well known. Sorry for not clarifying.
How are you qualifying for Dragonslayer before 11th level with just levels in wizard? It requires a +5 BAB.
If you just use dragonslayer, and dont take any +1 BAB classes until 11th level, the best BAB you can get is +15. Using militia or taking a level of fighter where that's not an option can get you a +16 or better.
Though this is probably now unnecessary, militia lets you get EK at level 5. Take 3 EK levels, take DS then spellsword, take more EK levels, finish off with wizard after your PrCs are done. Though I suppose you could fit in 2 levels of any full caster progression PrC instead of wizard 7 and 8.
EDIT:
Just FYI, there's such a build in post 6 on this thread.
(Urban) Ranger1/Hexblade4/Green Star Adept1/SuelArcanamach4/Dragonslayer1/Green Star Adept9
Full Suel Casting at CL 19, free Extend Spell for buffs, +17 BAB, Mettle, double-digit saves + cha vs. spells, all of the GSA's benefits, and all for the low cost of 3 feats, one of which is a bonus feat anyway. Also, you can go from level 1-20 without a hitch. Plus the build has flavor if you take into account the mysterious ways of starmetal-finding. Just Imagine Wraithstrike+ Draconic Polymorph, and then let loose with a power attack of doom. The only problem I see is the CON negation at the very last level. Feats would be Dodge, Power Attack, Iron Will, Combat Casting, Improved Toughness, Practiced Spellcaster, and you have 2 of your choice. Dragonslayer could be someting else, but you only burn Dodge, and Spellsword requires you to turn ranger into fighter, which cuts down your skill points too much to qualify for Suel and GSA
Human/Half-Dragon Red
Paladin 2/Shadow Mage's Sorcerer 5/Human Paragon 3/Spellsword 1/ Gray Hand Enforcer 5
Total Level= 16
BAB= +13/+8/+3
Caster Level= 12
Progression: another four level in Spellsword to have:
BAB=+17/+12/+7/+2
Caster Level= 14
Total Level 17
Bab: +16
Spellcaster level: 12+4(P.S.)=16
6th-level spells
Same Save
Same Bab
PRO Battle Sorcerer
d8 vs d6
PRO SM Sorcerer
Better Spell Progression (It know new spell level like a wizard while the BS like a sorcerer -1 :P)
I think that if you take Paladin, the Dragonslayer it's useless: both have aura of courage
EDIT:
A good idea (but many feats) it's channel spell with damage spell powered by this feat:
Fiery Spell (I don't remeber the excat name of the feat) +1damage for dice
Calishite Elementalist +1 lev fire spell
Bloodline of Fire +2 lev fire spell
Spell Thematics +1 dice damage
Elemental Spellcasting +1 lev fire
WarMage from Age of Mortal (Dragonlance): Battle Mage +3 damage for dice
So you can Channel a 15d6+60 Fireball or a 25d8+100 Blasted delayed fireball in the sword *SBAV* :P
IMHO, The Shadow Mage's Sorcerer is better than the Battlesorcerer
Shadow Mage's Sorcerer?
Shadow Mage's Sorcerer?
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=378003
:D
The bite series seem pretty nice, though it does suggest that you would lose iterative attacks for high BAB if attacking with your weapon. For a Draconic Polymorphing + Bite of Werebear Gish, thats an extra +24 Str on top of the normal strength of what ever form you chose. Really sweet. Classic example of changing into a Firbolg would give a Strength of 60!! And thats not even optimized... Should be noted that it doesn't stack with your various Strength adding items as +16 from the bite is an enhancement bonus.
Dolorous Blow deserves a special mention I feel as it does the job of both keen and blessed (that works against everyone regardless of alignment) all packaged in a friendly level 3 slot.
The various ray spells in Spell Compendium also make for more options for the Ray Fighter.
Any more interesting stuff? How about the new Power Words from Races of the Dragon? Are they useful for Gishes?
Note: Had a hard time finding this thread... must be the lack of posts in here for this year, so
to save a great resource for all the gish players like me.wizard 5/ek 3/DS 1/SS 5/EK 6
So you now have CL 17 and BAB 17 so you can spell channel 9th level spells for some very fun times hehe.
Bladeweave - wiz/sor 2, swift action, once a round, when you hit with a weapon, opponent must make will save or be dazed.
Steeldance - wiz/sor 3, animate 2 bladed weapons to fight with you.
Sword of Deception - actually I don't remember what this one does. There are quite a few spells that conjures/evokes a force blade. All of them are quite good.
Gold Dragonarmor - this is actually in Champions of Valor, and it creates a mithril full plate +1 for 1 hour/level.
Diamondsteel - the higher the AC your armor confers, the more DR you get
Mage Armor, Improved (Greater?) - no need for expensive material components anymore. Sweet.
Resistance, Major and Superior - originally from Savage Species. As good for gishes as for anyone else.
Ruin Delver's Fortune - this is actually useful for high Cha gishes. Improve your chances of getting out of a bad situation as an immediate action by adding your Cha mod to the result. Really nice.
I don't own Races of the Dragon, but I do know there are some nice feats for sorcerers.
Any more interesting stuff? How about the new Power Words from Races of the Dragon? Are they useful for Gishes?
I'd say so, as they only have Verbal components and allow no saving throw, which means there's less worry with MAD and low-level spell slots. Plus if you're a fighting gish you ought to be able to wear down their HP so the Power Words are useful ;).
You know, has anyone made any good gish threads since shadow mage disappeared? There ought to be an updated gish thread that saves all the theory out of this thread while leaving behind the chatter and debates. I wonder what happened to JosephKell's thread too...
For sure. There is a lot of new material out there. ATM I'm a little busy with work + college + rehearsals, but maybe I could do that after I graduate in July - if, until then, no-one does, of course.
That means a possiblity of 24d6 per strike if im not mistaken.
2d10 from the monk unarmed strike damage (2 Monk Lvs + 10 Enlighten Fist + Acestic Mage + Battle Sorcerer 8.) would increase to 4d6 with Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike), and furthere increase when Greater Mighty Wallop is cast to 6d6 at 6th caster lv, 8d6 at 8th caster lv, 12d6 at 12th caster lv, 16d6 at 16th caster lv, 24d6 at 20th caster lv.
However i might be wrong since the spell says increases until colossal, which might mean since unarmed strikes for a medium humanoid are medium then you might be able to only get 4 size increases out of the spell.. meaning 12d6, then increase again from improved natural attack for 16d6.. either way though its still pretty wicked.
NOT SO!!!!
I would like to draw everyone's attention to a feat in the Shining South Book (FR setting):
Selective Spell - This spell lets you omit a single creature from the area of your spell. It costs +1 level to the spell. It has the rerequisite that you need to know at least one other metamagic feat.
So for a 7th level spell, you turn off all the magic around you but leave yours on. Note that this still blocks line of effect, so you can't cast fireballs and such. However you CAN:
Fly around
Teleport
Maintain all your buffs
Use Arcane Strike
Note that the feat excludes "a creature" from the spell, so it doesn't matter what size you are when you cast it, or even if you change sizes during the duration of the spell.
Sure, it tends to be annoying to your party members when you get too close to them, but so what? You get IMMUNITY to breath weapons, IMMUNITY to enemy casters, all enemy buffs TURN OFF when you close with them, leaving them only their mundane defenses.
Oh, yeah, and you can make it persistant. 4 levels of incantatrix anyone?
How uber is that?
This begs the question: Can you make a rod of Selective Spell given it's prerequisite?
As I've hardly kept up with any newer developements in D&D, and know nothing of more recent material (anything that was published in the last couple months), it's almost discouraging to try to remake all of this since it would be very incomplete. Heck, some of those posts push the character limits of an individual post anyway, and it sounds like there's a lot more material to add. Not to mention this message board upgrading business...
Biondo and Nero
You sir, are truly wonderful for mentioning, much less praising, my sorcerer. I give you much love, affection, and... uh, manly handshakes. Tough masculine ones. Hurrah.
On an off-hand note, has anybody used a gish-type character in a campaign recently? If so, how did it perform? I'm very curious, since I've been away so long and have been completely out of the gaming loop.
Yours,
-shadow mage
I've been playing around with an idea in my head and I was wondering if you could give any opinions/criticisms/whatnots.
Warmage4/Barbarian2/Spellsword4/Rage Mage2/Eldritch Knight8
Now this is only a basic idea so refining will need to be done but the Caster level is around (im not good at maths) 14. Which isnt really good enough so help is needed.
Also in my games we get feats at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and so on.
Makes a world of difference.
I havent played a gish yet but I really want my next character to be one.
I've been playing around with an idea in my head and I was wondering if you could give any opinions/criticisms/whatnots.
Warmage4/Barbarian2/Spellsword4/Rage Mage2/Eldritch Knight8
Now this is only a basic idea so refining will need to be done but the Caster level is around (im not good at maths) 14. Which isnt really good enough so help is needed.
Also in my games we get feats at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and so on.
Makes a world of difference.
Don't even bother with rage mage and I wouldn't bother with more than 1 spellsword level either since warmage gives you armored casting.
Warmage8/barbarian1/spellsword1/eldrtichknight10 (note this will require you to take heavy armor profiency) will give you BAB 16, CL 18, ability to cast in medium armor, and you're epic ready.
Or you can go warmage4/barbarian1/mageofthearcaneorder4/spellsword1/EK10 and have access to spellpool II so you have access to up to 6th level wizard spells.
I'm going with the plain Fighter1/Wizard6/SpellSword3/Eldritch Knight10 which gives me what I want out of a Gish.
My current thought is to go Transmutation and dump (and I'm going to get heat for this) Enchantment and Evocation. With all the new spells in PHBII and Spell Compendium there are plenty of damage spells...and I'm mainly looking at a melee Gish.
Our party has a Warmage, so AoE is well covered.
Thoughts?
As a wizard, what is the benefit of specializing? Is the loss of two perfectly useful schools of magic worth the benfits? I think it would be better to remain a generalist and simply focus more in those spells, because you never know when a well-placed Evocation spell will save your party. If the warmage is good at his job, than prepare mostly Transmutation spells. If he is injured or incapacitated, it's always good to have a back-up blaster.
-Shadow Mage
I was doing some review last night, and it looks like I can safely dump those two schools...the benefit, 9 more spells per day (max) and (using the PHBII) the ability to invoke fly/climb/swim speed a good number of times per day (giving up the familiar).
I was wondering why didnt you spotlight the warmage, seeing it is better then a socerer for blasting, and the no arcane spell chance faliure helps, the bonus feats and better hit dice helps out to
The Warmage is better for blasting, but that's all it's better for. He gets virtually no defensive or buffing spells whatsoever, whereas the Sorcerer can do things like Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door, Displacement, AND Fireball. Arcane Spell Failure can be minimized with the right equipment, and then Prestige Classes handle the rest. Sure, a Warmage can run around in armor right from the start, but can he make himself invisible, fly, make himself harder to hit, detect secret doors, open locks, increase his stats, etc? No. If you're playing a Gish, you want to be able to make yourself as combat worthy as possible, and that means having a few choice buffing spells active, none of which the Warmage possesses.
Though the duskblade is my new favourite "gish-in-a-can" class. Puts the Hexblade to shame really.
Now as for the duskblade... I hear many things regarding the duskblade, and so far as I can tell it’s full BAB, has melee-only skills, poor spell list (sounds like mostly rays/blasts), and up to 5th-level spells (and apparently lots of casting per day). That screams Arcane Strike fodder to me, though in all honesty I like a sorcerer better for that. Duskblade seems like the simpler option, but perhaps not necessarily the best. A sorcerer would net you higher level spells but you’d only lose a point or two in base attack bonus. Whether for Arcane Strike fodder or for general use, seems more logical to me based on what I know of the duskblade.
This beguiler sounds like it has promise though, if it attains higher levels of casting than a bard. Love bards, but not as gish.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, though, as I haven’t seen PHBII yet.
-Shadow Mage
Duskblade13/RokuganNinja7? Silliness for sure, but if said duskblade used a greatsword and had this +4d6 sneak attack, some manner of invisibility (via ring perhaps?), something like a magic missile channeled, and begin the turn using Arcane Strike for a 3rd level spell for instance, that's 2d6 + 4d6 + 5d4 + 3d4 ... average 40 damage to each guy you hit? Not too bad...
I dunno, that sounds like it might warrant checking out, even if I am missing some factors. Bookstore, here I come.
-Shadow Mage
Duskblade 13/Chameleon 7 is unutterably awesome, giving the Duskblade access to every 5th-level and under spell in the game.
Duskblade 13/Enlightened Fist 7 lets them Hold Ray, which will let them Disintegrate everyone they hit in a round, for example. Feat-intensive, unfortunately, since you need to pick up Imp. Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist.
Damage-dealer is a good role for the Duskblade. For example:
Human
Duskblade 1: Power Attack, Dodge
3: Mobility
6: Elusive Target
9: Imp. Bullrush
12: Shock Trooper
15: Arcane Strike
18: Leap Attack
Power Attack for huge amounts plus Arcane Strike plus channeled spells, drop your AC, do lots of damage.
Duskblade 18/Fighter 2 gives you an extra 2 feats, and this may well be the best way to go: you can pick up Combat Reflexes and Karmic Strike as well as the above feats, covering for your low AC by doing the Power Attack + Channeled Spell + Arcane Strike damage to everyone who hits you.
The other standard Duskblade builds focus either on the new Spring Attack chain in the PHB II which lets you make 2 and then 3 attacks on a Spring Attack, or on Whirlwind Attacking with a reach weapon.
For example:
Spring Attacker - Human
1: Power Attack, Dodge
3: Mobility
6: Spring Attack
9: Elusive Target
12: Bounding Assault (2 attacks)
15: Arcane Strike
18: Rapid Blitz (3 attacks)
Whirlwind Attacker - Human
1: Dodge, EWP: Spiked Chain
3: Mobility
6: Combat Expertise
9: Spring Attack
12: Whirlwind Attack
15: Arcane Strike
18: Elusive Target (you'll be in the middle of groups after all).
I like the damage-output one best (taking Fighter 1 and 2 at 14th and 15th), since when you face lots of enemies, they're usually not all that hard.
I mean, which spells from your spell list can be used with Arcane Channeling?
0-touch of fatigue
1-chill touch, shocking grasp
2-ghoul touch, touch of idiocy
3-dispelling touch, vampiric touch
4-*none*
5-*none*
Now this is shocking...
Though the duskblade is my new favourite "gish-in-a-can" class. Puts the Hexblade to shame really.
The duskblade and hexblade are two different types of characters
The duskblade is an almost one dimensional offensive character who is comparable to the barbarian and warmage who's job is to kill something as fast as possible.
The hexblade is a defensive and utility character who's job is to make the other guy suck, avoid getting hit by sword and spell, and to be a ultility infielder for a party.
On an off-hand note, has anybody used a gish-type character in a campaign recently? If so, how did it perform? I'm very curious, since I've been away so long and have been completely out of the gaming loop.
I have. But it was only for one session... it was a plain Fighter 1/Conjurer 5/Knight Phantom 3, and I did pretty fine in a battlefield by casting Solid Fog + fireball, and then Wraithstrike + Power Attack and also Leap Attack (via Heroics).
Hexblades suck.
And for those who belive psionics are overpowered may I direct you to this theard,
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253
and this one
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=416446
Gish is the term used for any fighter/mage build where the character's focus in both spellcasting and martial combat is at least somewhat equal and where both aspects of the character are viable. Spellcasting and Manifesting (for psionics) can usually be used interchangeably.
Bolded the important bit for emphasis, got that covered Talkkno. ;)
MechaboyDos, sounds like you're running in a very tough game anyway, since that sort of attack bonus should hit most of your enemies (if they're standard monsters printed in the various books, including Epic Level Handbook, that is). If your AB is that high, I imagine damage is probably impressive too, so are your hits worth it when they do connect?
Sang-Drax, as an avid user of the various fog spells I have to say that combination is one of the most fun and effective (right up there with acid fog and incendiary cloud. A gish-style character focusing on that probably does a lot for battlefield control, since one moment it obscures vision, the next it damages, and finally it literally jumps into the fray dealing amazing damage (more with Arcane Strike I'd assume). I keep wanting to play one of two builds I have planned (one psionic and one a dual-whip-user) but don't have much in the way of a group at the moment.
-Shadow Mage
MechaboyDos, sounds like you're running in a very tough game anyway, since that sort of attack bonus should hit most of your enemies (if they're standard monsters printed in the various books, including Epic Level Handbook, that is). If your AB is that high, I imagine damage is probably impressive too, so are your hits worth it when they do connect?
Yeah, so far none of our encounters have been "standard" as far as I can tell. Our latest one was against two 500 HP AC 58 creatures (so I needed 15 or better to hit on my primary attack) who dealt persistent damage (damage requiring epic level healing to heal, and we don't have a Cleric in our party).
When I do connect it's decent damage, though it could be higher. What I went for with my primary weapon was basically the "DR Can Opener;" a Sure Striking Metalline Wounding Greatsword +5. Currently before buffs I'm dishing out 2d6+15 per hit. Not outstanding and it could certainly be better, but our DM has changed a lot of things and I've done the best I can manage as far as getting what I want and making it good. After fully buffing myself the base damage goes to 4d6+22. The design I have for my character is your basic charge-tastic build; Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and Dire Charge. A fully buffed full attack on a charge looks like this:
4d6+22+54 primary attack (DM interpreted Leap Attack to apply only to primary, and interpreted the +100% errata as increasing the PA multiplier by one step, so x3 damage for a 2H weapon)
4d6+22+36 for four secondary attacks with Haste
So in a single round I have the potential to deal 20d6+310 damage, plus five Con damage. That's enough to drop nearly anything, and I've got the HP to survive a round or two with whatever it doesn't drop. Problem is just hitting the damn things. Hopefully if I can survive a couple more levels I'll be able to improve myself somewhat.
Second, you could take a straight cleric and there you have it, "gish". Same with a druid. Divine spellcasters sacrifice virtually nothing, unlike arcane casters and psionic ones who must give up something to be effective.
Short and simple. ;)
-Shadow Mage
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8713572
Elf
1. True Namer - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (thinblade).
2. Swashbuckler
3. Swashbuckler - Dodge
4. True Namer
5. Swashbuckler - Bonus Feat: Least Legacy
6. True Namer - Feats:Skill Focus (True Name),
7. True Namer
8. True Namer
9. True Namer - Mobility
10. True Namer
11. Champion of Legacy - Bonus Feat: Lesser Legacy
12. Champion of Legacy - Spring attack
13. Champion of Legacy
14. Champion of Legacy
15. Champion of Legacy - Feat: Extend Utterance
16. Champion of Legacy
17. Champion of Legacy - Bonus Feat: Greater Legacy
18. Champion of Legacy - Bounding Assault
19. Champion of Legacy
20. Champion of Legacy
I find that Legacy Weapons, Champion of Legacy, and Truenamers have a lot of synergy. In this gish build, start with a +1 Elven Thin Blade, turn it in to a legacy weapon, and get the initial boosts to int and Skill (True Naming). The skill bonus stacks with the one granted by an amulet of the Silver tongue, and the ability bonus (int) will replace a headband of intellect. Once you get the Champion of Legacy prc, you can replace the lesser bonuses for better ones. Champion of Legacy is also the only PrC that can advance utterance progression. In all you only lose 5 Truenamer levels, which still gets you into the 3rd lexicon. The biggest problem with Legacy items is that you are heavily invested in them, and if they are destroyed, your hosed. A Truenamer can counter that some what, by summoning the item too him, or restoring it if it is actually destroyed.
Swashbuckler 3 is for the free weapon finess, and insightful strike. Intelligence is the prime stat, with dex and con being secondary. Overall it looks like it would be an interesting build to play.
shadow mage, you asked about recently playing a gish in a campaign? Here you go! :D
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8713572
I read, I replied, and I thank you for the mention and the recap of your adventure.
-Shadow Mage
The logic is the Duskblade seems to be a more warrior-then-mage (where martial prowess is its main attribute), rather than a mage-then-warrior (where magical breadth/strength is its main attribute); so why bother supplementing warrior with more warrior, you see?
-Shadow Mage
By the way, Shadow Mage, your description of the psychic weapon master is 3.0. The updated one is here. You're aware of the enormity of the change from 3.0 to 3.5 in psionics, and it's evident in the PWM as well. On an interesting optimization note, with the "official" 3.0 Weapon Master being rolled into the Exotic Weapon Master, the PWM is the only remaining source of critical ranges stacking (sorta -- Improved Crit still doubles the range, but if you had the feat already it adds an additional 2 numbers to the range). A lot of the abilities grant you a feat, but if you already had the feat, they give you something more.
It remains a solid PrC, but with only 5/10 manifesting it really, really hurts the gish aspect of your build, unless the class it advances is a rapid-progression class like War Mind or a gish-focused class with an incredible power list like Psychic Warrior (sorry about the PP).
For now, consider this the updated Psychic Weapon Master:
Psychic Weapon Master (here)
Prequisites: Base Attack Bonus +5, Ability to manifest a 3rd-level power, must have a crystal melee weapon, Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Psionic Dodge, Psionic Weapon, Weapon Focus, must use a crystal weapon, proficiency in your weapon of choice, either from a feat or a class feature
Merits: Full base attack bonus, d8 HD, good Reflex save, decent skills per level (4 + int) and an impressive skill list (including Use Psionic Device), bonded weapon, psionic damage, increased multiplier, improved critical, whirlwind (or whirlwinding as a standard action, if the feat is already possessed).
Drawbacks: Steep prerequisites, loses five manifester levels over ten levels, manifester levels are on even levels.
Good levels to jump out after: This is probably the worst prestige class to merely dip into. First level sucks, but is a good precursor to what happens later. The more levels you take in the class, the better the benefits. Since BAB does not suffer, all levels are good to go for if manifester level is not as much a concern. Increasing the multiplier of your weapon starting at second level makes it very attractive and improved critical at 7th level augments this perfectly by increasing threat range. Psionic damage (maximizes weapon damage) is awesome as you gain more levels and can use it more often per day and first acquire it at first level.
Good drop-levels: This is a very awkward class to simply drop out of, because later level benefits of the prestige class are actually worth it. 4th level looks good to drop, however, since 5th level neither grants a new ability (just more uses of an existing one) nor increases manifester level. Similarly, after 8th level (where you have now acquired the powerful improved critical variant and where you can your second to last manifester level progression) is also optional. Whirlwind is good, but not necessarily good enough to warrant the loss of another manifester level and no save increases.
Good lead ins: Psychic Warrior8, Psion6/Fighter2
Not sure when the update will take place, but I'll start organizing it into a Word document as early as tomorrow.
-Shadow Mage
Limited spell list aside a duskblade can research his own spells as well, and my DM does allow me to research preexisting spells to add to my duskblade spell list so long as i have a spell known slot open to fill it with. Thus I do have spells like Wraith Strike, Critical Strike and so on.
On another note, updates are coming along smoothly. It's broken up into ten different segments, that I'll call "volumes", and I'll have a couple volunteers proofread the material to make sure it's still good. Here's a status report with a nice (Finished) stamp beside what's been completed:
- Volume 1 - Introduction (Finished)
- Forward
- Definition of "Gish"
- Role of "Gish" in a party (brief overview)
- Synopsis of ability scores (which are important, and why)
- Forward
- Volume 2 - Classes (Finished)
- Description of base classes (separated into "warrior" and "mage" categories; alphabetical order) usable for "Gish"
- Each base class lists its source book or link
- Description of base classes (separated into "warrior" and "mage" categories; alphabetical order) usable for "Gish"
- Volume 3 - Prestige Classes (Finished)
- Description of prestige classes (alphabetical order) useable for "Gish"
- Each PrC lists its source book or link
- Description of prestige classes (alphabetical order) useable for "Gish"
- Volume 4 - Skills
- List of useful skills for "Gish" (including psionic skills; alphabetical order)
- Volume 5 - Feats (Finished)
- List of Martial Feats (feats usable for martial purposes)
- List of "Qualifying" Feats (those that assist in qualifying for other feats and PrCs)
- List of Caster-Related Feats (feats usable for spellcasting/manifesting purposes)
- List of Martial Feats (feats usable for martial purposes)
- Volume 6 - Spells
- List of useful spells (sorted by spell level; alphabetical order)
- Mention psionics, but not in extreme depth
- List of useful spells (sorted by spell level; alphabetical order)
- Volume 7 - Types of Gish
- Melee combat specialists (tanks, meat shields)
- Ranged combat specialists (archers, ranged-touch spell users, skirmishers)
- Spellcasting/Manifesting combat specialists (focus on specific spell-oriented tactics, usually battlefield control)
- Stealth/Support Specialists (assassins, snipers)
- Melee combat specialists (tanks, meat shields)
- Volume 8 - Tools of War
- Armor (magical, mundane, and special materials)
- Weapons
- Essential Gear (magic & psionic)
- Armor (magical, mundane, and special materials)
- Volume 9 - Tactics
- Exactly as the existing post about tactics
- Magic use
- Psionics use
- Exactly as the existing post about tactics
- Volume 10 - DM Tools
- Sample NPCs!!! (sorted by CR, of various gish types, of various races; including tactics and brief biography)
- Credits and Special Thanks
- Self-explainitory
- Will also include all who contribute to the making and updating of this guide
- Self-explainitory
The only issue I'm having is a way to include psionic feats and powers. Simply, there's not enough room with the 50,000 character per post limit, which is awkward because everything else fits into one post. Also, I'm debating having the first post include an Index with links, as well, or make that the very first post and follow it with the various Volumes.
Any input is greatly appreciated. I would love to keep this thread updated and organized, and the new sections (ability scores, skills, tolls of war, DM tools) will really help both players and DMs have fun with gish types in their campaigns and worlds.
-Shadow Mage
Update: Regarding the re-compilation of information, I'm getting along quite nicely, but full time in both the work and school departments are slowing me down a bit. Should be fine after some strongarming and assassinations, but until then it'll be delayed even more.
I feel like I've said that before.
-Shadow Mage
long live the Gish!
Please for the love of all that's holy tell me you weren't considering a divine spellcaster.
Oh, yes and no.
Warning: The incoming babble is far closer to a music-less bard than to a gish.
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Y'see, the standard Mystic Theurge build has blank levels in it. Wiz3/Clr3/MT10. That's 4 levels to play around with as you please. I figured, eh, if I can sneak in a single level of Spellsword, that's a great pickup. Good HD, 2 saves, arcane progression, BAB, casting in a mithral shirt without penalty -- you know the drill.
Accordingly, I took a peak at the first couple posts in the thread, and you had the prereq as listed as "2nd level spells." With the other things in mind, that would mean that Fit1/Clr3/Wiz2 would qualify for Spellsword thanks to its Cleric casting, and taking that first level would then satisfy the requirements for the Mystic Theurge by advancing the Wizard casting. The result would be Fit1/Clr3/Wiz2/SS1/MT10, with 3 levels to spare, rather than being forced to take Wiz3 and only have 2 levels to spare. Also, this would allow for playing a human or half elf.
Since the requirement for Spellsword is in fact 2nd level arcane spells, you do need to hit Wizard 3. That means that your base classes end up being Fit1/Clr3/Wiz3, meaning the character must be a dwarf because of the way Favored Class: Any works. Long story short, that leaves my little thought exercise as the following.
Dwarf
Fighter 1 / Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Spellsword 3 / Mystic Theurge 10
BAB: +12/+7/+2
Fort/Ref/Will: +12/+6/+16
Casting as Wiz 15 (8th level spells), Clr 13 (7th level spells)
-15% ASF (Can cast in Mithral Breastplate without penalty)
It doesn't jump off the page as being incredible, but it strikes me as at least better than the simplest alternative, Clr 5/Wiz 5/MT 10. Then again, 7/3/10 is pretty nice either way...
But yeah, this isn't really a gish, but you implied that I might be crazy and... actually this probably didn't help my cause much.
Accordingly, I took a peak at the first couple posts in the thread, and you had the prereq as listed as "2nd level spells." With the other things in mind, that would mean that Fit1/Clr3/Wiz2 would qualify for Spellsword thanks to its Cleric casting, and taking that first level would then satisfy the requirements for the Mystic Theurge by advancing the Wizard casting. The result would be Fit1/Clr3/Wiz2/SS1/MT10, with 3 levels to spare, rather than being forced to take Wiz3 and only have 2 levels to spare. Also, this would allow for playing a human or half elf.
Since the requirement for Spellsword is in fact 2nd level arcane spells, you do need to hit Wizard 3. That means that your base classes end up being Fit1/Clr3/Wiz3, meaning the character must be a dwarf because of the way Favored Class: Any works. Long story short, that leaves my little thought exercise as the following.
Dwarf
Fighter 1 / Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Spellsword 3 / Mystic Theurge 10
BAB: +12/+7/+2
Fort/Ref/Will: +12/+6/+16
Casting as Wiz 15 (8th level spells), Clr 13 (7th level spells)
-15% ASF (Can cast in Mithral Breastplate without penalty)
It doesn't jump off the page as being incredible, but it strikes me as at least better than the simplest alternative, Clr 5/Wiz 5/MT 10. Then again, 7/3/10 is pretty nice either way...
But yeah, this isn't really a gish, but you implied that I might be crazy and... actually this probably didn't help my cause much.
If you're going for the warrior/mage/divine caster gig, I don't think it gets better than the Fochlucan Lyrist. Honest. The sample build I posted a while back was a Rogue3 / Fighter1 / Druid3 / Bard1 / Sorcerer2 / F.Lyrist10. Lands you BAB +16, 7th-level druid spells, 6th-level sorcerer spells, good arcane strike fodder, and is a great self-buffer. Minus items it can net well over 60 damage per hit fully buffed.
Mystic Theurge, I haven't figured out how to work. Yes, it boosts both arcane and divine spellcasting. No, it doesn't have a remotely good enough BAB to consider it for gish builds. Good for other builds, yes. Not gish.
-Shadow Mage
And honestly, I wasn't going for a gish when I started my dickery. I was thinking of a Mystic Theurge, said "Hey, Spellsword would be nice about now," and I've got this thread bookmarked. What can I say, I'm a big fan of mithral chain shirts. The only way I can see a MT build being "gish-like" is by taking advantage of its bajillion spells per day to get a lot of Divine Powers and Tenser's Transformations, and I personally hate both of those spells. I think the MT is at its best when you know that there isn't a prayer of getting past 16th level in the campaign, so you can Clr 3/Wiz 3/ MT x and never look back. But that's metagaming to the X-TREEEEM!
But enough of this Theurgery. Back to gishing.
Diverse Background sounds like a feat worth looking into.
First level only, requires being half-human. You pick a class to permenantly be an additional favored class. So in this case, if you chose Rogue (which seems the most legit, as it's going to be your 1st level class), you wouldn't have a penalty. Actually... I'm not sure if humans are allowed to take it, looking at it now, since other feats have listed prereqs of "Human or half-human." One could argue that a human is, in fact half-human (he's simply the other-half-human as well :D ), but it would appear that this would pretty much force the build to be a half-elf in order to avoid the XP penalty.
But if the price of avoiding the penalty is choosing a terrible race and burning your first level feat, I say screw it, play a human, and eat the penalty.
'S what I get for failing a Fort save against whatever I caught.
-Shadow Mage
The fact that your bard caster level is in the toilet doesn't even necessarily preclude those 1st level spells from being useful. That slot could very easily be used for set-length spells like Undetectable Alignment (24 hours) or Swift Expeditious Retreat (1 round), or even just Inspirational Boost. But again, not knowing your specific feat choices makes this something of a shot in the dark.
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Note: My original thought was using the Fochlucan Lyrist as a melee-specialist; don’t be too shocked to see how I’m fleshing out the idea below now that this fact is known.
Part 1: The Build
What I've got so far is a Rogue3 / Druid3 / Sorcerer2 / Fighter1 / Bard1 / F.Lyrist10. What a mouthful.
Now, how to arrange them?
Thus far it's:
*your choice of small race, I like halflings. .an elan also works well*
Ardent5/Uncarnate10/Iron Mind5
Feats: Psionic body, Invest Armor, Practiced Manifester
Items: Handy Haversack (you need!), nice heavy armor+shield
Disadvantages:
- Low BAB
- Limited power selection
- Only can have ten items
Advantages:
- Low BAB offset by constant 'wraithstrike' type effect plus effective finesse
- Strength is a dump stat (no strength score at lv 15)
- 9th level powers
- Nigh-unhittable (heavy armor+shield+cover+50% miss chance BEFORE you start the fancy stuff)
- Exceptional 'surprise' character
- Can escape from most any situation if it goes wrong
- You're silent and scentless, and with invisibility you're virtually undetectable
- Never has to worry about triggering AOOs (can always be partially inside objects/the floor and therefore have cover)
Other advantages depend on power and mantle selection, as well as tactics. for example. .
- Innate 'alter self' type ability makes it natural to pose as another type of character entirely, causing effects you're strong against to be wasted on you
- Compression has no disadvantages for you, as you have no strength score to reduce and when you shrink below small size you don't have to worry about AOOs from entering an opponents hex (and along those lines you can abuse the 'small folk' feats)
- As an ardent you have multiple powers to select that you can use to heal yourself
- You can manifest an astral construct on top of yourself. .and either make it look just like you and 'go to ground' (powerful misdirection effect) or fight/cast from inside it
The list goes on, but I think the point's made. It's fun to take the PrCs that are generally considered undesirable (uncarnate) and turn them into something both tremendously amusing as well as surprisingly effective for the clever character/player
*Big fancypants build of doom and nachos*
Very impressive; I like it. A bit MADdening, but hey, that's to be expected when you try to do everything like a badass. And this guy looks like he certainly can. I'm not sure it's how I would play the build, but yours would probably be the superior style in terms of damage output. My experience playing a 10 CON Rogue/Thief-Acrobat for the last year has showed me that charging is generally the purview of sturdier characters, but with the amount of buffs you have access to it probably won't be a tremendous problem. I'm also not a fan of polymorph or its ilk, but again, that's preference, not effectiveness. (Never would I think of suggesting that polymorph is holding a build back.)
If you absolutely wanted more feats, though, you could probably dump Improved Sunder and Combat Brute without hurting yourself too much. As cool as Sundering is sometimes, it's generally not your best option, and the party members that CAN'T get away with using a non-magical quarterstaff all the time aren't likely to appreciate you exploding all of their precious loot. With your damage output, you can drop an enemy easily enough that smashing his gear is largely unnecessary. Besides, if you really want to bust somebody's greataxe, you've still got got stealth (and thus surprise rounds) and True Strike to handle things.
To me, it seems like one of those "caster gish" I mentioned. Also, would you care to explain this "constant 'wraithstrike' effect"? Incorporeal Touch is limited to up to 3 uses per day...
MerlintheTuna
Very true regarding Sunder; it holds a special place to me because it was the only reason that one of my first games didn't end in a total party kill. I'm partial to it, but admit it is limited in use. Also, I have to admit, that while polymorph in all its forms is, mechanically, effective, I much prefer the simple use of enlarge for role-play purposes; the former is better in general, but the latter is good in a pinch and cheap.
Now, the charging was just an example of how to gain more damage; I rarely, rarely ever charge with any of my characters, mostly because the more damage you soak, the more healing you'll need, and the more the party members will grumble. Strictly speaking, it was a mental excersize.
I was thinking about a 3.0 feat, though, called Knockdown. Free trip attempt every time you deal 10 or more damage? Yes please. It's in Sword and Fist if you've got it, and easy enough to get I think.
Update: Finally catching up in my work and school lives, so I'll be renewing my efforts for a cleaned up "Gish Thread". Anybody who wants to see the drafts and help me along, I'm more than open to assistance.
-Shadow Mage
Lears_fool, I wish I could comment, but I don't know what the Ardent is (though I'd guess it's from Complete Psionic?), and as I've mentioned in the beginning, the choice of base class determines the kind of character played. Heck, don't even have access to Iron Mind (Races of Stone), so that's only half the build I can look at. Wish I could be more help. Peeking at Uncarnate, though, Uncarnate Bridge and Incorporeal Touch look promising, though limited uses per day are severely hampering. Uncarnate Armor does provide for the ability to have an extremely high AC (and as you mentioned, adding the ability to be incorporeal makes him very difficult to hit). However, what's it damage output? What can it use besides offensive powers to hurt an enemy? How effective is it in a mostly-melee battle? Mostly-caster?
To me, it seems like one of those "caster gish" I mentioned. Also, would you care to explain this "constant 'wraithstrike' effect"? Incorporeal Touch is limited to up to 3 uses per day...
Yeah, I've been noticing my book collection slacking a bit too, it's amazing how quick we can fall behind ;)
The Ardent's from Complete Psi, it's a cleric BAB base class that has several 'mantles' the player must choose from (as they level) that grant special abilities as well as their list of powers known. A regular psion would also work well enough, but wouldn't have access to 9th level powers and would be a bit more of a defensive caster.
On the 'effective wraithstrike', once you hit level ten you become completely incorporeal, and while incorporeal all of your natural (3d6) attacks are touch attacks, and if you use a weapon the same's true (though you'd need ghost touch or you suffer a 50% miss chance unless it's ranged). With every attack you make being a touch attack, you tend to more than make up for the lower BaB (but don't get as many attacks).
Combat-wise, you're an odd egg. If you go compression you tend to benefit from getting into the middle of the action and using combat feats, weapon powers (Dissolving weapon) and short range powers (ultrablast, etc) and you're a surprisingly good attention getter. If not you can benefit from a reach weapon and combat reflexes since you can easily position yourself wherever you like (and again, as long as you move partially through the ground. . no AOOs and you can walk right through the bad guys)
In a nutshell, how 'gish' you depends some on feat choice but more on the fight you're in. The fun thing is lots of your good abilities (3d6 damage touch attacks, incorporeality, telekenesis) are free abilities that don't use up your PPs, so you can save them for when you need them.
Incorporeal Touch (Su): ...While uncarnate (see below), a psion uncarnate can make melee touch attacks at will that do not count against his uses of this ability...
There we go, now I understand. Yeah, this has a lot of potential, and certainly sounds like something worth mixing with, oh, let's see... Psychic Warrior4/Fighter2/Elocater4/Uncarnate10? Still BAB +12 (I keep cringing while reading that), but I think Flanker and Opportunistic Strike +2 mixes very well with Incorporeal Touch. Feat intensive, I think, but it combines the mobility inherent in Elocater builds with all Uncarnate incorporeal coolness.
This is worth looking into.
-Shadow Mage
However that uncarnate touch (with regular 3d6 or else with weapon) really does more than make up the difference from a to-hit standpoint. .you just get more attacks
For example, against a Marilith you've got an effective +16 to hit, +8 against an ogre, +30 against a very old red dragon, and +22 against that half-dragon bad guy in +4 plate with a +2 tower shield.
It was one of those 'you don't notice it until you play with it' sort of things.
Update: At the moment, I'm having trouble fitting all of the good feats and all of the good castings (spells and powers and such) in one post each, so I'll probably have them broken into two posts each (one feat post including magic, another including psionic feats, then one post for spells, and another for alternative castings including psionics). Also, I've decided that Incarnum is worth mentioning, as I can see some excellent application here. I'm still very new to the book, but it's time to start optimizing.
-Shadow Mage
Quick question. Have people caught on to the idea of using the spell necrotic empowerment (Libris Mortis) in conjunction with Divine Metamagic / Persistent? +8 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, Intelligence and Wisdom, +8 natural armour bonus, +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves and 100 temporary hit points all day long seems rather impressive, even for an 8th level spell. The downside is needing to take the Mother Cyst feat, but there are some other interesting things you can do with those which might make it worth it.
Quick question...if some casts dispel magic on you as the target, you would lose your persistant spells and, in this case, lose 100 HP correct? Just something that's been buggin' me here lately with all of these persistant builds.
...how would you Gish a Dread Necromancer?
The class itself seems poorly designed, as the most devastating spells they get are Touch Spells.
This combined with Lich Body (Damage Resistance), Charnel Touch (which stacks with Touch Spells if I remember correctly...well, my DM lets it), a higher Hit Die, Negative Energy Blast, Fear Aura, and some decent combat Familiars (Ghostly Visage?!?! Can we say "Paralyze at will"?) seems to create what I'd call a "Touch Killer".
Yet, compared to a Duskblade, the Dread Necromancer hardly seems "Gishable" as a straight shot class.
What do you guys think?
What are some angles to take for a Dread Necro Gish?
Feats?
Prestige Classes?
Possible builds?
I've got an issue with a current campaign that maybe you guys can help with...
...how would you Gish a Dread Necromancer?
The class itself seems poorly designed, as the most devastating spells they get are Touch Spells.
This combined with Lich Body (Damage Resistance), Charnel Touch (which stacks with Touch Spells if I remember correctly...well, my DM lets it), a higher Hit Die, Negative Energy Blast, Fear Aura, and some decent combat Familiars (Ghostly Visage?!?! Can we say "Paralyze at will"?) seems to create what I'd call a "Touch Killer".
Yet, compared to a Duskblade, the Dread Necromancer hardly seems "Gishable" as a straight shot class.
What do you guys think?
What are some angles to take for a Dread Necro Gish?
Feats?
Prestige Classes?
Possible builds?
dreadnercro8/fighter1/spellsword1/eldritchknight10
Dread necros do have some gish potential. Basically going gish allows you to be better able to stand in the front ranks with your undead army than always hiding behind them.
They have rebuke undead so they can take feats like divine might and divine vigor which add to their combat ability. Arcane strike is also a good option given the number of spells per day a dread necro gets.
Arcane discipline adds to their spell list and that can open up some possibilities though it requires a decent wis and an item that boosts wis.
Take the tomb tainted soul feat or be undead yourself (like being necropolitan for example) and you can heal yourself with charnel touch (basically an unlimited wand of cure light wounds) and you can use the exploding corpses trick to heal yourself and your minions.
And since you already have light armor casting you can take the battle caster feat to be able to cast in medium armor and mithral full plate to add to your defense.
Quick question...if some casts dispel magic on you as the target, you would lose your persistant spells and, in this case, lose 100 HP correct? Just something that's been buggin' me here lately with all of these persistant builds.
He speaks with wisdom.
I cannot comment on much of what's been brought up; I simply don't have those sources. I can say, however, that the best tactical decision for a gish-style character to make is to be good in any situation. In other words, don't rely solely on any one thing. Relying solely on melee combat screws you against ranged specialists and flying foes. Relying solely on magic use, or ranged combat, can be similarly damning.
The entire idea of playing Gish is, mechanically-speaking, to either augment them or circumvent these possible weaknesses entirely.
In short, Persistent Spell (if it functions as it did in 3.0, which it sounds like it still does) is more of a liability than a strength; I'd take Extend any day, given the choice.
-Shadow Mage
AFAIK, Dispel checks have no auto-success, so dispel magic would fail if you have a CL > 30, greater dispel magic would fail if you have a CL > 40 and chain dispel would fail if you have a CL > 45.
Now that's hard to reach with a arcane caster, but divine casters should get this high easily, if they try. Think beads of karma, spell enhancer, infernal threnody, consumptive field, on a chameleon. Instant CL of 42, without even trying hard.
it seems that earlier the advocated builds started with:
Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SpSwd 5/EK x
but recently the more accepted builds nowadays seems to be:
Ftr 1/Wiz 6/SpSwd 1/EK x or
Ftr 1/Wiz 6/SpSwd 3/EK x
is there some new stuff out that seems to make SpSwd 5 a less popular choice now? is it purely because of the higher caster level that the "current" builds gives that makes it more popular?
i'm asking because i'm starting a gish chara for a LG game which i wanted to go along the "older" path, but i'm hoping to get opinions on how the different builds play at level 1-6 (or 7).
i hope this isn't too noob a question, but it's regarding the playability of the following builds. looking thru the 1st page of this thread, there are suggestions on the different build types of gish eg. (martial, caster etc)
it seems that earlier the advocated builds started with:
Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SpSwd 5/EK x
but recently the more accepted builds nowadays seems to be:
Ftr 1/Wiz 6/SpSwd 1/EK x or
Ftr 1/Wiz 6/SpSwd 3/EK x
is there some new stuff out that seems to make SpSwd 5 a less popular choice now? is it purely because of the higher caster level that the "current" builds gives that makes it more popular?
i'm asking because i'm starting a gish chara for a LG game which i wanted to go along the "older" path, but i'm hoping to get opinions on how the different builds play at level 1-6 (or 7).
9th level spells seems to be prefered more over the Spellsword's Channel Spell ability. Channel Spell isn't a bad ability, but there are just too many good 9th level spells that, to some players, aren't worth passing up. It really falls down to your personal preference, is all.
Another good Gish build by Slyver that's been going around is Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 1/Inc 4/EK 9.
Inc = Incantatrix from Player's Guide to Faerun. BAB 16, 9th level spells, 5 bonus feats. You can still get away with wearing Mithral Twilight Full Plate with a Thistledown Suit from Races of the Wild for no ASF.
I was flipping through Races of Stone earlier and found even more fodder for that lovely little Lyrist build. The feat in question is Metamagic Song. Prereqs are any two metamagic feats and Bardic Music. You've obviously got the latter, and the former isn't too steep a requirement. What you get in return is the ability to spend Bardic Music uses to power your metamagic instead of increasing the spell's level. There are a few catches, though. You can't "split the cost" -- either it's all Bardic Music or it's all Spell slot increases -- and you can't use it to cast metamagic'ed spells you wouldn't be able to cast without the feat. So a Bard 4/Sorc 1 still couldn't burn his music to Quicken a True Strike since he couldn't cast a 5th level Sorc spell at that point, even though it only uses a 1st level slot.
It doesn't necessarily keep in line with the "a gish is a warrior first and a mage second" theme, but still, I imagine you find sacrificing 4 uses of Bardic Music to quicken a spell acceptable, yes?
Title:Melee Warlock
Race:Any
Build stub:1 warblade/6 warlock/1 warblade/10 warlock/2 warblade
That 2nd warblade is for Iron Heart Surge and the last 2 warblade would be IL 11 and 12 for manuevers.
Level 1: Power Attack and Combat Reflexes if human
Level 3: Shape Soulmeld Crystal Helm
Level 6: Open Least Chakra Crown
Level 9,12,15,18: i like to pick extra invocations. They all work on eldritch glaives.
Jade Phoenix mage is the only one that can progress a warlock progression and IL as well. I choose 4 warblade for the swift recovery, uncanny dodge and boost the BAB to 16 not to mention more manuevers. 4 iterative touch attacks are likely to hit. I can choose a fochlucan lyrist but that'll only give me one warblade level. That build had bard songs, druid spells, evasion, and warlock invocations
Manuevers: I had to choose swift actions, boost and stances.
Iron Heart Disarming Strike to qualify for
Iron Heart Surge - must have
White Raven Tactics Boost to qualify for
Tactics of the Wolf Stance - bonus 1/2 IL damage to you and flanking allies
Blood in the Water Stance
Sudden Leap Boost
Dancing Mongoose Boost - Extra attack on eldritch glaive
Swap out Disarming Strike for Lightning Recovery at warblade 4
Keep in mind no melee touch attacks manuevers are needed and no DR manuevers needed. Eldritch glaive are melee touch attacks and when combined with soulmeld, it hit incorporeal creatures with no miss chance and bypass DR as eldritch blast is a spelllike ability and the force descriptor is added. At 12th level of warlock, the warlock can craft anything providing he has the needed feats. Eldritch glaive combined with souldmeld grant a 7d6 iterative attacks with acid and force descriptor when vitriolic blast is added. Note eldritch glaive work with combat reflexes.
Race:Any
Build stub:2 rogue/2 bard/4 warlock/warblade/druid/10 Fochlucan Lyrist
Level 1: Power Attack and Combat Reflexes if human
Level 3: Shape Soulmeld Crystal Helm
Level 6: Open Least Chakra Crown
Level 9,12,15,18: i like to pick extra invocations. They all work on eldritch glaives.
Warblade is at 9th level to take advantage of Iron Heart Surge. This is a very powerful manuever capable of breaking continuous effect up to antimagic field. BAB is still 16. Druid CL is 11 and warlock CL is 14. 12 level of bard songs. Saves are 8 14 16.
Keep in mind no melee touch attacks manuevers are needed and no DR manuevers needed. Eldritch glaive are melee touch attacks and when combined with soulmeld, it hit incorporeal creatures with no miss chance and bypass DR as eldritch blast is a spelllike ability and the force descriptor is added. Eldritch glaive combined with souldmeld grant a 7d6 iterative attacks with acid and force descriptor when vitriolic blast is added. Note eldritch glaive work with combat reflexes.
This build has a Fochlucan Lyrist 'feel' within it - that bardic woodland champion spellcaster flavor, but more effective (and no divine spellcasting to boot). It also has 12 levels of skill monkeyness.
It's much more of a warrior than a spellcaster, mind you... that's why I picked that monk level, which forced me to delay my spellcasting twice (because I needed to pick EK levels in order to not let the BAB decrease beyond +16).
There's a lot of Charisma sinergy here. You get Cha to hit (Snowflake Wardance), damage (Divine Might), and to AC (ascetic mage). However, you add it yet again to hit and damage, because your Charisma determines how often you can use and also the power level of your Avenging Strike (Cyran Avenger feature).
Star Elf (for the flavored class and the more than handy +2 Cha, and for the flavor. You can use Human if you feel way too short on feats).
Cha > Dex > Str > Con > Int > Wis
Ranger 2/Monk 1/Bard 4/Cyran Avenger 5/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 4/Eldritch Knight 2
Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +14
BAB +16, CL 16th (8th level spells)
Charisma to attack, damage, AC, Avenging Strike
1.ran1 *Track, Weapon Focus: longsword
2.ran2 *Two-weapon fighting
3.mnk1 whirling steel strike, *Power Attack
4.brd1
5.brd2
6.brd3 Snowflake Wardance
7.brd4
8.cyr1
9.cyr2 Ascetic Mage
10.cyr3
11.sub1
12.cyr4 Somatic Weaponry
13.cyr5
14.sac1
15.ek1 Divine Might, Oversized 2wf*
16.sac2
17.sac3
18.sac4 Improved 2wf
19.sub2
20.ek2
Uses the Overwhelming Attack monk variant from UA. Oversized 2wf is there to make some good use of Power Attack besides being a pre-requisite for Divine Might.
You could possibly add a level of dragonslayer and a level of spellsword in there in place of eldtritch knight. THat gives you 2 bab and 2 casting levels. It is rather feat hungry though.
Actually, that would mean same BAB, +1 CL, and 3 feats less, as I'd be refraining from the EK1 bonnus feat.
I'm yet to see a build where Dragonslayer is actually a good choice. Dodge and Iron Will are WAY too subpar, IMO.
Thanks for the suggestion anyway. :P
Its a wizard/knight phantasm/abjurant champion gish.
Depending on the variant (there are 3, which I will list below) you will either get 18th or 19th wizard level and +17 BAB, besides a host of great abilities and feats. The below is just copy and pasted, as I formatted it to the best of my limited formatting abilities already:
OK - so I've taken all of the comments and devised 3 builds. The first is what I feel to be the most 'legal' - no flaws, no mixing of Eberron and Forgotten Realms material. The second mixes Eberron and Forgotten Realms material, but there are no flaws. The third has flaws and mixes.
All the builds offer lots of fun abilities, good combat ability, good casting, good will saves, and pretty good hitpoints ... weaknesses are bad ref and fort saves, and a distinct lack of skill points. A high int will help with the latter problem, but that can only do so much.
It is also probably optimum to mix in the Abjurant Champion earlier rather than later, but that only requires a little rearranging.
Stat focus should be: Int>Str>Dex>Con>Wis>Cha, I think. Int and Str are obviously very important, with Dex and Con being moderately important. Wis and Cha aren't important.
So, without further ado ...
Build 1:
Fighter 1/Abjurer 5/Knight Phantom 9/Abjurant Champion 5*
* Note that Abjurant Champion 5 offers the ability to quicken 3rd level abjuration spells for free (as opposed to 2nd), +1 AC from defensive abjuration spells, and martial arcanist, which is quite useless for this build. Quickening 3rd level spells for free and +1 AC is probably better than the Knight Phantom's 10th level ability
Human:
1) Collegiate Wizard
1) Combat Casting
1 fighter) Power Attack
2 wizard) Scribe Scroll
3) Still Spell
6) Battlecaster Offense
6 wizard) Energy Abjuration
9) Mystic Backlash
12) Arcane Strike
15) Twin Spell (or metamagic of choice)
18) Quicken Spell
Final stats: +17 BAB, casts as an 18th level wizard.
This gets a lot of feats compared to the ebberon/faerun build, but they don't quite make up for the wizard level.
Build 2:
Abjurer 5/Knight Phantom 10/Abjurant Champion 5
Human
1) Collegiate Wizard
1) Militia
2 wizard) Scribe Scroll
3) Still Spell
6) Combat Casting
6 wizard) Energy Abjuration
9) Power Attack
12) Arcane Strike
15) Mystic Backlash
18) Quicken Spell
Final stats: +17 BAB, and casts as a 19th level wizard
This is a bit stronger build ... despite effectively losing two feats, the increased casting more than makes up for it.
Build 3:
Abjurer 5/Knight Phantom 10/Abjurant Champion 5
Human
Flaws: Pathetic (- to charisma or wisdom, neither is really needed), Inattentive (since he has a good will save, weak will might also be fine ...)
1) Combat Casting
1) Power Attack
1) Collegiate Wizard
1) Militia
2 wizard) Scribe Scroll
3) Still Spell
6) Imp. Toughness -or- metamagic of choice
6 wizard) Energy Abjuration
9) Arcane Strike
12) Mystic Backlash
15) Twin Spell (or metamagic of choice)
18) Quicken Spell
Final stats: +17 BAB and casts as a 19th level wizard
This is almost certainly the strongest build of the three. The flaws don't really hurt him that much, which leaves room for more metamagic or imp. toughness if a lowish Con score demands it.
Schools that you'll probably want to pick as you banned ones are enchantment (doesn't fit the character) and necromancy (the other schools are more useful for this character).
I think that this character has the potential to be a lot of fun, and is viable at all levels. The only 'weak' level is probably that first knight phantom level, as you lose the caster level there. Otherwise you are golden.
2nd- It's long, and you'll have to forgive me if this is already included, but I would like some input on how to optimize the build further, including feat selections, which discipline, etc.
Psionic Gish
1st- Ardent (Energy Mantle, Other)
2nd-8th- Psion 1-7
9th- Illithid Slayer 1
10th-13th- Storm Disciple 1-4
14th-20th- Illithid Slayer 2-7
Using Fractional BaB and Saves, you end up with:
BaB- +16/+11/+6/+1
Fort- +9, Ref +6, Will +18
Manifester Level- 17th
A link to a similar build rife with feats and strategies would be appreciated too. Thanks!
The mystic backlash feat is a reserve feat which increases abjuration spell level and provides a great melee attack against enemey spellcasters. The battlecaster offense is a tactical feat which can either provide a bonus to melee attacks after hitting an enemy with a spell, or a bonus to magical attacks after hitting an enemy in melee.
Those should work pretty well for a Jade Phoenix Mage (melee) build, right? Kind of sounds like JPM's empowering strike and quickening strike... Does it work similarly?
Damned, now I have to go buy another book... ;)
Those should work pretty well for a Jade Phoenix Mage (melee) build, right? Kind of sounds like JPM's empowering strike and quickening strike... Does it work similarly?
Damned, now I have to go buy another book... ;)
Not sure, I dont' have my books on me now ...
Master Specialist (CM)
Jade Phoenix Mage (ToB)
Abjurant Champion (CM)
Warblade 1/Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 7
BAB 17
CL 17
IL 15 (8th Level Manuevers)
F 10
R 5
W 11
This build is very well balanced and has very little requirements. It only requires Combat Casting for Abjurant Champion.
This build can also be tweaked to have AC4/JPM 10 to grant Emerald Immolation, +2 to Fort, -1 Will, 1 less use of swift abjuration, and -1 AC to your Mage armor type spells.
what does the version in PGTF say? Im pretty sure that one says all martial and thats the one folks are using.
Thanks for the pointer. You are indeed correct. The PGTF version (for halflings, halfelves and humans only) gives all martial weapons when taken at level 1.
Guess my Gray Elf is out of luck ;)
1) Collegiate Wizard
1) Combat Casting
1 fighter) Power Attack
2 wizard) Scribe Scroll
Collegiate Wizard has a requirement of Wizard level 1. This build is taking Fighter at level 1, so can't take Collegiate Wizard then.
16 BAB, 18 CL
Feats:
1: power attack, able learner (to make it easier on the skill requirements)
3: practiced spellcaster
6: combat casting
9: arcane strike
12: open feat
15: divine might or any other divine feat
18: open feat
Finally a paladin/sorcerer gish that gets 16 BAB and 9th level spells and I like it because it has a good amount of hps for a gish (10 + 6d10 + 4d4 + 9d8 = 84 on average plus con modifier) putting you about on par with a cleric as well as good defense thanks to the abjurant champion. This character has good nova potential if you take both arcane strike and divine might.
Where is the Phantom Knight located?
It's also an excerpt on the Wizards Website
Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Geomancer 3/Dragon Slayer 1/Spell Sword 4/Eldritch Knight 6
+15 BAB
1 bonus feat
-15% ASF (that means you can use a Twilight Mithril Full Plate)
Ignore ASF for 0-2nd spell levels
14th level Wizard casting and 3rd level Cleric casting(More Versatility)
----------------------------or----------------------------
14th level Cleric casting and 3rd level Wizard casting(More Buffs)
Must pick Iron will and Dodge to Qualify to become Dragon slayer
What do you think of that?
How About...
Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Geomancer 3/Dragon Slayer 1/Spell Sword 4/Eldritch Knight 6
I would try to get that BAB up one more if you can. Geomancer isn't very good in this manner becuase it doesn't give you anything in return (Unless you get to high levels of Geomancer for Pounce and whatnot). BAB and Caster Level are important here.
I would try to get that BAB up one more if you can. Geomancer isn't very good in this manner becuase it doesn't give you anything in return (Unless you get to high levels of Geomancer for Pounce and whatnot). BAB and Caster Level are important here.
Alert!WHAT!!!
Geomancers let you Ignore ASF...IGNORE IT. not to mention lets you interchange you arcane or divine stat that means only one spell stat to keep up.I suppose you could switch out 1 spellsword for 1 eldritch knight if you want...
WHAT!!!
If you wanna wear armour that bad a single level of Runesmith (and being a dwarf) cost you fewer caster levels/BAB.
Jack
As mentioned before, I know very little about the Duskblade, but from what I gather a duskblade's spell list is very limited, and only tops out at fifth level spells at the most. Sorcerer levels are more useful if you're going for Arcane Strike fodder, and Wizard levels for more utility.
The logic is the Duskblade seems to be a more warrior-then-mage (where martial prowess is its main attribute), rather than a mage-then-warrior (where magical breadth/strength is its main attribute); so why bother supplementing warrior with more warrior, you see?
-Shadow Mage
1st level duskblade vs 1st level fighter
- d8 .................................................................... vs d10 hit points
- +2 will save............................................................. vs bonus feat
- 3-0 level spells per day
- 2-1st level spells per day + int bonus
- spell like power to cast 5-o level spells
a total of 3+int mod per day
- cast all duskblade spells in light armor
class skills
- spellcraft .................................................................vs Handel animal
- concentration .................................................................intimidate
- decipher script
- knowledge {all}
- sense motive
ever thing Else is the same, seems to me that its a better start for a Gish then fighter, I'm not saying that a 20 level duskblade can stand up to a well built 20th level Gish just that duskblade is better than fighter in many builds
1 duskblade 1 arcane attunement, armored mage
2 duskblade 2 combat casting
3 mage 1 scribe scroll, summon familiar,
4 mage 2
5 mage 3
6 mage 4
7 spellsword 1 -10% asf
8 mage 5 bouns feat
9 to 19 eldritch knight 1 to 10 bounus feat
20 mage 6
bad +16
fort +14
ref +5
will +13
cl 17 mage
2 duskblade
64 hit points +con bonus [fixed as per dmg 198 all levels]
Any comments are appreciated. At this point I am looking at the following:
Fighter 1 / Wizard (transmuter) 4 / Runesmith 5 / Aburant Champion 5 / Archmage 5
Benefits include full armored spellcasting, all martial weapons (including a dwarven waraxe), ability to share spells, the Arcane Boost ability of the Champion, and the loss of only 1 level of spellcasting. BAB isn't that great, but can be overcome with things like Tensor's Transformation. I have to keep in mind that this is the party's only wizard, so while he'll major in Tranmutation, he'll minor in Evocation. opposing schools would be illusion and necromancy.
I'm a bit hung up on what feats to run with, but I wanted to make sure my build made sense first...
Ok, I'm prepping a Dark Dwarf Wizard I recently rolled up for our home Dragonlance game. My stats rolled up Str 14, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 15, Wis 13 and Cha 7. With such strong physical stats I figured I had a good shot at a decent melee wizard build.
Any comments are appreciated. At this point I am looking at the following:
Fighter 1 / Wizard (transmuter) 4 / Runesmith 5 / Aburant Champion 5 / Archmage 5
Benefits include full armored spellcasting, all martial weapons (including a dwarven waraxe), ability to share spells, the Arcane Boost ability of the Champion, and the loss of only 1 level of spellcasting. BAB isn't that great, but can be overcome with things like Tensor's Transformation. I have to keep in mind that this is the party's only wizard, so while he'll major in Tranmutation, he'll minor in Evocation. opposing schools would be illusion and necromancy.
I'm a bit hung up on what feats to run with, but I wanted to make sure my build made sense first...
Drop necromancy and enchantment, not illusion - its too valuable.
Drop necromancy and enchantment, not illusion - its too valuable.
Thanks for the heads up - I was following the advice of the Complete Mage, but I hadn't really looked at the spell list. Enchantment is a good choice considering our party has a bard.
+17 BAB
CL 18 (Nigh Full Wizard Spellcasting)
Scribe Scroll + Familar(i have a kitty named Buttons)
Sword focus
Channel Spell
Fear immunity
Use Thrisledown Twilight Mithral Breast plate
1 free feat(Monkey Grip)[Use Huge Balanced Basterd Sword]
1: Militia
3: Combat Casting
Wiz-BF: Quicken Spell
EK-BF: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
6: Explosive Spell
9: Power Attack
12: Dodge
15: Iron Will
18: Free Feat(i choose Monkey grip)
What do you think?
Wizard 3/Eldritch Knight 10/Raumathari Battlemage 4/Dragon Slayer 3
(snip)
What do you think?
I think I'd love to know how you qualified for Eldritch Knight without being able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
Eldritch Knight also requires proficiency in all martial weapons. (although i'm not familiar with the Militia feat - does that grant the prereqs?)
yep
I was thinking Ranger2/Wiz6/Abj Champ or Ranger1/Wiz6/EK1/Abj Champ5/EK...
Thoughts or suggestions? I know I can't dip into Dragon Slayer or Spellsword, as I don't have that heavy armor prof...
yep
What's it from?
Regarding the abjurant champion gish...what would be the most opitmized way of getting my Ranger into the Prc? The problem is that your need a BAB of +5, so you can't enter as a Ranger1/Wiz6/ as you can as a EK.
I was thinking Ranger2/Wiz6/Abj Champ or Ranger1/Wiz6/EK1/Abj Champ5/EK...
Thoughts or suggestions? I know I can't dip into Dragon Slayer or Spellsword, as I don't have that heavy armor prof...
Actually, Dragonslayer *gives* you heavy armor prof (and Tower shields )
The real squeeze seems getting into Dragonslayer (Dodge and Iron Will aren't exactly the best feats in the whole world)
I'd think a rather simple build would be
Wizard 5 (militia) / Knight Phantom 3 / Abjurant Champion 5/ KP +7
CL 19, BAB 17
You could throw in Dragonslayer for Heavy Armor if you like, but Knight Phantom gives you light armor casting without ASF as it is.
A more complex build could be something like
Wizard 5 (militia) / KP 3 / DS 1 / SpellSwrd 1 / AC 5/ KP+5
Obviously you have to throw away more CL if you can't use Militia. (1 level or Ranger or Fighter ought to do it. )
Warblade could be good, but it only gives you melee martial weapons, which doesn't qualify you for EK, or KP, only AbjC.
Hugh Scalpinelli
Human, 20th level, +15 BAB/21 CL, Base Saves 10/5/17, Average HP 128
Base Stats With a 25-Point Buy System at Level 20:
STR 14
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 16
WIS 8
CHA 22
Flaws: Innatentive, Poor Reflexes; Traits: Detached, Spellgifted (Evocation)
1 Human Paragon 1 - Feats: Spell Focus (Evo), Metamagic School Focus, Empower Spell, Energy Substitution (Electricity)
2 Warmage 1
3 Warmage 2 - Feat: Practiced Spellcaster
4 Fighter 1 - Feat: Power Attack, +1 STR
5 Human Paragon 2 - Feat: Born of the Three Thunders
6 Warmage 3 - Feat: Arcane Thesis (Scorching Ray), Eclectic Learning (Identify)
7 Human Paragon 3 - +2 Dex
8 Fighter 2 - Feat: Improved Bull Rush, +1 CHA
9 Warmage 4 - Feat: Shock Trooper
10 Eldritch Knight 1 - Feat: Leap Attack
11 Spellsword 1
12 Eldritch Knight 2 - Feat: Energy Admixture (Electricity), +1 CHA
13 Fatespinner 1
14 Fatespinner 2
15 Fatespinner 3 - Feat: Split Ray
16 Fatespinner 4 - +1 CHA
17 Eldritch Knight 3
18 Eldritch Knight 4 - Feat: Maximize Spell
19 Eldritch Knight 5
20 Eldritch Knight 6 - +1 CHA
With the ability to deal ridiculous damage from afar or in melee, Hugh can Power Attack for Full due to Shock Trooper and still hit, quadruple the damage with his Valorous Greatsword and Leap Attack, and deal even more damage with a Valorous Greatsword of Spell-Storing. He can wear all Light Armor and Light Shields, and has an extra 10% from Spellsword. Assuming the following:
Fist of Stone: STR 20
Blades of Fire: +1d6 Fire Damage
Spell-storing Weapon: Split Empowered Admixtured Three Thunders Maximized
Searing Ray (40d6+3 or 243 Fire/Electrical damage)
Full Power Attack/Charge/Leap with Tierfing (+5 Mageslaying Vicious Valorous
Adamantine Greatsword of Spell-storing): +27 to hit, 14d6+154+243 damage
With one attack on a surprise round, Hugh can deal 439 damage average.
Were Hugh to Energy Sub the Scorching Ray to Eletricity, he could more than likely kill a Very Old Red Dragon in a single blow, and still have two more Rays coming.
Fighter 2/Diviner 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8
1: Diviner, Combat Casting, Improved Initiative
2: Fighter, Alternate Class Feature (Armoured Mage), Battle Caster
3: Diviner, Medium Armour Proficiency
4: Fighter, Power Attack
5: Diviner
6: Diviner, Practised Spellcaster
7: Spellsword
8: Abjurant Champion
9: Abjurant Champion, Arcane Strike
10: Abjurant Champion
11: Abjurant Champion
12: Abjurant Champion, Craft Magic Arms and Armour
13: Eldritch Knight, Improved Critical (Greatsword)
14: Eldritch Knight
15: Eldritch Knight, Craft Wondrous Item
16: Eldritch Knight
17: Eldritch Knight
18: Eldritch Knight, Leap Attack
19: Eldritch Knight
20: Eldritch Knight
Main features of this build
1. BAB 18+
2. No Arcane Spell Failure in Medium Armour and Light Shields
3. -10% ASF for anything heavier than medium armour and light shields
4. CL 20
5. Level 9 Spells baby!!! :evillaugh
EDIT: And you wouldn't qualify for Spellsword with it, you need proficiency with all armors.
Fighter1/Wizard6/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight7
BAB: 17
CL: 18
ST: 12/5/13
and only requires 1 feat: Combat Casting
Well my response to that is that in any prestige class that grants you +1 level of arcane spellcasting class for a given level, it states that you gain increased spells per day, spells known and caster level as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level i.e. you progress in spellcasting ability in the original spellcasting class you belonged to, the diviner in the case of my build. So the benefits of Armoured Mage would apply, because those levels of Abjurant Champion, Spellsword and Eldritch Knight do not count as "other" spellcasting classes, they are prestige classes which increase your spellcasting ability in your original spellcasting class.
A given level of Abjurant Champion or Eldritch Knight does not grant you the ability to cast arcane spells if you couldn't already do so, it just adds to an existing ability. Ergo, the increased spellcasting ability is that of your base arcane caster class, not of the prestige classes per se. Hence, I don't see why Armored Mage would not in fact apply.
I will concede that I would not be able to qualify for Spellsword without Heavy Armour Proficiency though, but that would be easily fixed by taking it as my 2nd Fighter level feat. Yes that would mean I would not be able to take Leap Attack at 18, but oh well.
And Armored mage takes away your medium armor proficiency, too. You would have to burn two feats.
Back to the drawing board then.
The gish as of right now is:
Fighter1/Wizard6/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight7
BAB: 17
CL: 18
ST: 12/5/13
and only requires 1 feat: Combat Casting
Seconded. Sorcerer in this build also lets you get ninth level spells.
Wow... I can't believe I missed that...
Back to the drawing board then.
I don't think there's need, the build is solid even without that. And a Mithral Githcraft (armor template from DMGII) full plate with the Twilight enhancement (PHBII, BoED) has an arcane spell failure chance of 10%, which is lowered by that Spellsword ability to 0%.
If you fail that, you can use Greater mage armor for +6 armor bonus, or Bracers of armor for +8 armor bonus. And if your alignment is good, just use the Greater luminous armor spell from BoED, which gives a +8 armor bonus before that +5 bonus from Abjurant champion.
Monk3/swashbuckler3-
forgotten realms carmendine monk feat= all monk abilities based off INT instead of wisdom. which is almost worth it for any monk just for skill points.
there is also a feat for stacking monkand swashbuckler for unarmed damage in PHB2
Shouldn't Wraith Strike from Complete Adventurer be listed among the good second level spells? I mean, when you're fighting a dragon or a golem, this spells comes in handy.
Most list wraithstrike as the most 'efficient' spells in the game. Up there with shapechange ;)
BAB+14
CL=17
Channel Spell IV, Battle Spell (Still, Silent, Empower, Maximize and Quicken). With the metamagic feats Persistent Spelland Smiting Spell and the spell Wraithstrike he can fight very well.
1 pal, 6 sorc, 1 spellsword, 1 dragonslayer, 5 abj champ, 6 eld knight
BAB +17
CL 18
9th level sorc spells
smite 1/day with a nice synergy from sorc, 10% ISF, all the abj champ goodies, immune to fear
saves 14/5/15
could get divine grace for that 9th level spell sacrifice.
monk 1/paladin 2/sorcerer 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 4 (or 5)/Sacred Exorcist 8 (or 7)
BAB 15
Caster level 17
base saves: 11-6-18 (or 17)
Required feats: combat casting
Recommended feats: ascethic mage, practiced spellcaster, arcane strike
With Ascethic Mage this gives Cha to saves, ac, and spells. Sacred Exorcist gives undead turning, so can take Divine Might or other divine feats. Last level of SE can be swapped for last level of AbChamp; SE would give a +1 to will saves and Holy Aura/1day, while AbChamp would give auto-quickened 3rd lvl abjurations and +1 to AC boost of abjuration spells.
If planning on wearing armor, then can forego the monk level and instead:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8
BAB 16
CL 18
base saves: 9-4-16
Required feats: Combat Casting
Recommended feats: Practiced Spellcaster, Arcane Strike
Same as above except no monk, so lose the 1st lvl monk benefits (+2 to all saves, unarmed strike, monk bonus feat) and no Cha to AC. This give 16 BAB and 9th lvl spells however, and can still use divine feats. With the use of a shield (possible from Spellsword) and Divine Shield feat, can add Cha to shield bonus as a standard action. With Parrying Shield that would apply to touch AC as well. And with Shield Specialization/Shield Ward, it would apply to touch AC and to resist grapples, disarms, trips, overruns and bullrushes. While this can be a significant its a feat intensive way of getting it, it takes a standard action to activate, and it only lasts for a number of rounds.
For an epic level build, one that would actually be played in epic, the considerations change slightly. Pre-epic caster level isn't quite as important, as long as you can get it back with epic levels. i.e. With practiced spellcaster and classes in epic that give full spellcasting, you can lose up to 4 levels of spellcasting pre-epic and get them all back by lvl 24 at the latest. The more important considerations are pre-epic BAB and pre-epic base saves, since those will never be changeable and increase at a set rate forever more, regardless of class choices. Also, the choice of what class to take into epic is important so as to maximize epic class bonus feats and other abilities.
Sacred Exorcist might be the best class for a pre-epic 'gish' to take as its epic class. I can't think of a PRC a gish would take substantial levels in pre-epic that would give full spellcasting and bonus feats more often than every 4 levels. Eldritch Knight gives that, but the SE is substantially better in epic as it gets d8 HD vs d6 and also furthers its other abilities (chosen foe, dispel evil).
Another consideration is that the Cha synergy from the monk/aschetic mage trick gets substantially better once epic spellcasting comes into play. For instance, an epic spell that has a duration of 40 hours and grants a +22 enhancement to Cha can have a spellcraft dc of 41, or 39 if personal. Easily attainable by lvl 24 without relying on any tricks or magic items. So even in low epic thats a +11 boost to AC, saves and spell DCs. It gets much more significant at higher levels when the boost is a +60 to Cha or something like that.
So the goal would be an epic build with at least one level of monk, 2 levels of paladin, a BAB of 16, and an unmodified caster level of 16.
This could be done with:
monk 1/paladin 2/sorcerer 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Sacred Exorcist 4
BAB 16
CL 16
base saves: 14-7-18
Required feats: combat casting
The base saves are pretty impressive for a gish, particularly given the added Cha to saves. This also gives the fourth attack. The big drawback is only 4 levels of SE pre-epic, meaning no SE epic bonus feats till lvl 30 (SE lvl 14), essentially costing an epic bonus feat in exchange for a fighter bonus feat, better saves, and the fourth attack/+1 to BAB. Thats probably a pretty even trade.
(Note dropping one level of AbChamp and getting a 4th in EK will net a +1 to Will saves, but probably not worth it compared to the bonuses gained from 5th lvl of AbChamp.)
It could also be accomplished with the 2nd build and adding one level of monk at 21st and taking ascetic mage at 21st lvl. That still costs an epic bonus feat, but without the benefits of the extra fighter feat and better saves, so it would not be the better option.
Best race would probably be human for the bonus feat, and feats are always so powerful in the hands of a gish. Other considerations would be dragonborn, hellbred, and spellscale, for their various ability boosts and special abilities, although the ones giving Cha boosts have a painful corresponding Con penalty. Dragonborn gives a Con boost with a Dex penalty and also a long darkvision and blindsense, so that is potentially worth the feat/skill points of the human.
Would it be worth it to take the Armored Mage class abilty for the Fighter (Complete Mage) and the Eldritch Armor feats from Dragon #355 to make a multiclass Wizard13/Fighter7 for a campaign that only uses Core Books and SRD 3.5?
And how would you get an alternative class feature from Complete mage and feats from Dragon magazine in a core + SRD game, anyway?
I have a question involving some feats from a recent Dragon magazine and an optional class ability from Complete Mage:
Would it be worth it to take the Armored Mage class abilty for the Fighter (Complete Mage) and the Eldritch Armor feats from Dragon #355 to make a multiclass Wizard13/Fighter7 for a campaign that only uses Core Books and SRD 3.5?
No
You're much better off going fighter2/wizard8/eldritchknight10 or fighter2/wizard6/EK10/loremaster2 and using the still spell feat ot cast in armor.
BAB: +15
CL 19
One of the best build I made. Can be combined with many things and it's better than my last posted build, very similar.
Wizard6/ Swiftblade9/ Abj. Champion5
BAB +17
CL 17
This is the best!!! Using Two weapon fighting with Smiting Spell and two Spell Storing Swords (like scimitars).
4 spells in one standart action and one more action that can be another Spell(perpetual options).
Or Sacrifice some Spell with Arcane Strike...
Starting at level 2
32 point buy
15 Str
12 Dex
16+2 Con
16 Int
8 Wis
8-2 Cha
1 Fighter / 1 Wiz
Equipment: Glaive (10 foot reach)
Flail
Chain Shirt
Fighter Feat 1: ???
Level Feat 1: ???
Level Feat 3: ???
Level Feat 6 ???
Level Feat 9 Combat Casting If I don't have it yet
Current Plan: 1 Ftr/4 wiz -> Runesmith (Races of Stone)
1 Ftr/4 Wiz/ 4 Runesmith -> Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage)
1 Ftr/4 Wiz/ 4 Runesmith / 5 Abjurant Champion -> Runesmith again
1 Ftr/4 Wiz/ 5 Runesmith / 5 Abjurant Champ / -> more Wizard? Eldrich Knight?
The plan is to be a backup fighter for my party's ninja and paladin, and work as a utility/buff wizard to complement the more blasty party Sorcerer. I want get the most out of spell storing enchantments and of the feat Arcane Strike (if it's worth it).
Any suggestions on feats or stat re-arrangements?
Battle Sor6/ Raumathari Battlemage10/Abjurant Champion 4
BAB: +15
CL 19
One of the best build I made. Can be combined with many things and it's better than my last posted build, very similar.
Wizard6/ Swiftblade9/ Abj. Champion5
BAB +17
CL 17
This is the best!!! Using Two weapon fighting with Smiting Spell and two Spell Storing Swords (like scimitars).
4 spells in one standart action and one more action that can be another Spell(perpetual options).
Or Sacrifice some Spell with Arcane Strike...
Uh...
+15 BAB and a crappy sorc variant?
Sadness.
Build Stub: Human Fighter 1, Wizard 4, Spellsword 1, Abjurant Champion 5, Eldritch Knight 9
Progression: Fighter 1, Wizard 1-3, Spellsword 1, Wizard 4, Eldritch Knight 1, Abjurant Champion 1-5, Eldritch Knight 2-9
BAB: +18
Mage CL: 18th
Fort: +12
Ref: +5
Will: +14
Feats
1. Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder (Human Bonus, pre-req for Combat Brute), Power Attack (Fighter Bonus)
3. Combat Casting (Abjurant Champion pre-req)
6. Leap Attack
7. Close-Quarters Fighting (Eldritch Knight Bonus)
9. Combat Brute
12. Arcane Strike
15. Extend Spell
18. Persistent Spell
Even though it's a charger build I'm not worried about doing without Shock Trooper. Persistent Wraithstrike and other self buffs will turn a full BAB Leap Attack into an easy Melee Touch. Follow that up with a Hasted Full Round Attack at full Power Attack x3 from Combat Brute and this guy is doing more damage in melee than many melee builds before any goofy Spell-Storing weapons or other DD spells.
Progression: Fighter 1, Wizard 1-3, Spellsword 1,
Nope, can't do that; Spellsword requires +4 BAB and 2nd level spells. Wizard 3 gives you second level spells and Base attack bonus +1, Fighter 1 gives you base attack bonus +1.
You're +2 BAB short.
edit: you can either grab 3 more levels of wizard or 2 levels of wizard and a level of Eldrich Knight, or a level of wizard and a level of fighter.
Fighter 1 / Wizard 6 / Spellsword 1
Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldrich Knight 1 / Spellsword 1
Fighter 1 / Wizard 4 / Fighter 1 / Spellsword 1
Uh...
+15 BAB and a crappy sorc variant?
Sadness.
What's the problem with a variant? I don't understand...
But if you prefer we can put a Wiz or Warmage, not sorc.
Fighter 1/ Wizard5/ RB 10/ Abj Champion4
+14 it's poorer than Battle sorc.
What's the problem with a variant? I don't understand...
Battle sorc cripples your spellcasting for very little gain (since you will always PRC out quickly losing the benefits of the variant while keeping its penalties).
Stalwart Sorc. is a much stronger option.
That is a good build. However you did not see it in the previous pages likely because the thread was started before there was an Abjurant Champion. The OP does not mention the Abjurant champion or the swiftblade, which are pretty much standard for gish builds now. If this thread was being updated, Im sure those would be included.
I was actually aware of that, and only checked the last five pages or so. Hm, so Swiftblade you say? I´ll look that one up, to see what it is like.
Ok, I'm prepping a Dark Dwarf Wizard I recently rolled up for our home Dragonlance game. My stats rolled up Str 14, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 15, Wis 13 and Cha 7. With such strong physical stats I figured I had a good shot at a decent melee wizard build.
Any comments are appreciated. At this point I am looking at the following:
Fighter 1 / Wizard (transmuter) 4 / Runesmith 5 / Aburant Champion 5 / Archmage 5
Benefits include full armored spellcasting, all martial weapons (including a dwarven waraxe), ability to share spells, the Arcane Boost ability of the Champion, and the loss of only 1 level of spellcasting. BAB isn't that great, but can be overcome with things like Tensor's Transformation. I have to keep in mind that this is the party's only wizard, so while he'll major in Tranmutation, he'll minor in Evocation. opposing schools would be illusion and necromancy.
I'm a bit hung up on what feats to run with, but I wanted to make sure my build made sense first...
Are you sure you have all the req's covered here? Skill Focus( Spellcraft), Spell Focus( xx), Combat Casting... pretty intense if you ask me
I'd like to point out, that, 3 lvls of Achmage are pretty much enough for anything you might want out of it... and it would gain you 1 bonus feat from wizard 5, and additional saves, and 1 pt BaB from wiz 6( to translate, go Wiz 6, ArCM 3, or even 2, and maybe take 1 lvl of spellsword, also, DO NOT DROP ILLUSION :D, if you must keep evoc, drop enchantment, the only valuable thing you loose from it are the Pover word spell line... as opposed to invis...
My sudgestion:
Fighter1/Wizard[ Transmuter]6/Runesmith5/Abjurant Champion5/Archmage2/Spellsword1... Banning Enchantment and Necromancy
On a side note... Spellsword is only taken for 1BaB, and 1 CL... the ASF reduction is useless...( in this build)
01 - Elf Paragon 1 - Dodge
02 - Wizard 1 - Scribe Scroll (Bonus)
03 - Elf Paragon 2 - Combat Casting, Weapon Focus (rapier)(Bonus)
04 - Elf Paragon 3 -
05 - Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finesse (Bonus)
06 - Wizard (Abjurer) 2 - Combat Expertise
07 - Abjurant Champion 1
08 - Abjurant Champion 2
09 - Abjurant Champion 3 - Iron Will
10 - Abjurant Champion 4
11 - Abjurant Champion 5
12 - Bladesinger 1 - Open feat slot
13 - Dragon Slayer 1
14 - Spellsword 1
15 - Eldritch Knight 1 - Open feat slot; Open bonus feat slot
16 - Eldritch Knight 2
17 - Eldritch Knight 3
18 - Eldritch Knight 4 - Open feat slot
19 - Eldritch Knight 5
20 - Eldritch Knight 6
BAB +18
CL 18 (Access to spells as 17th level mage)
Base Saves: Fort +13; Ref +8; Will +16
Many specials (remenber the Luminous Armor spells from BoED, Abjuration and Armor bonus)
Illumian(human subtype) - Sigils: Naen, Hoon.
STR high
DEX medium
CON medium-high
INT very high
WIS dumpstat
CHA dumpstat
1 Human Paragon - Able Learner, Note: cherry pick 10 desired skills to be permanent "class skills" thru able learner.
2 Wizard- Conjuror-specialist: Immediate Magic-abrupt jaunt. free: scribe scroll
3 Human Paragon - bonus feat: extend spell, Combat Casting(for Abj Champ)
4 Human Paragon - free: +2 INT intrinsic bonus.
5 Fighter - free: martial wpns, armor,shield proficiency. bonus feat: whatever.
6 wizard - Persistent Spell
(the above can be in just about any order - 4bab, 4caster lvl at the moment.)
7 SpellSword - -10% arcane failure.
8 Abjuration Champion - instant 5AC Shield spell as needed.
9 Abj Champ - Arcane Strike
10 Abj Champ
11 Abj Champ
12 Sacred Exorcist - Turn Undead (activates persistent spells). Extra Turning probably.
13 Abj Champ
14 Sacred Exorcist
15 Sac Ex - Open Feat
16,17,18 Sac Ex - Open Feat
19,20 Sac EX
BAB 16 - 4 base attacks.
Caster Lvl 18 (prac caster optional) - 9th lvl spells.
HP: 93 base average HP (+CON) which is really good. (a 20 cleric averages 90, fighter ave of 110)
(2d4 + 3d8 +1d10 +1d10 +5d10 +8d8 = 7d10 +11d8 +2d4 =38.5 +49.5 +5 average)
Max of 2 free uses of persistent spell from NaenHoon sigils, 6 turn attempts each.
Instant abjuration spell including +9AC Shield spell.
Luminious Armor +13AC (17 melee) optional.
+2 free INT from paragon.
cherry picked skill access from early Paragon.
Very few mandatory prereq garbage feats. Most selected feats can be substituted out as desired.
Equipment Notes:
-----------------
Buckler Shield - NO AC needed due to your uber Shield spell. Used only for Fortification or other special abilities. Can ditch it entirely if desired, or if using a real 2hander.
Armor - If Luminious Armor is used, can use fortification or other useful armor property instead of AC. Expect to use twilight mithril breastplate otherwise, or some lighter armor with thistledown.
Longsword? - Used as a 2hander most of the time. Can spellcast with sword drawn with offhand. Can use greater magic wpn instead of natural enhancement bonus for Shocking or whatever.
Nightstick - +4 turn undead uses. Fairly cheap.
Relequary Holy Symbol - +2 turn undead uses.
Orange Ioun stone or similar stuff to pump up caster level by up to 2 would be beneficial.
Detailed Explanations:
-----------------------
Naen sigil adds +2 to all CON/WIS checks. Ok for a few skill checks.
Hoon sigil adds +2 to all INT checks. Pretty good for boosting your already high INT-based skills.
The two together however create the NaenHoon word, which lets you spend X turn undead attempts to apply a known metamagic to a spell on the fly. X is the extra cost of the metamagic. 2 uses per day maximum, no matter how much Turn you have.
--------
3 Paragon levels adds +2caster lvl, +2bab, +2 to 1 stat, bonus feat, and ability to cherry pick 10 desirable skills able to be maxed thanks to Able Learner.
2 Wizard - Base caster class. Recommend Specialist or Focused Specialist for more slots.
1 Fighter - bonus feat and picks up Wpns,Armor,Shield profiencies for Spellsword. Dragonslayer is great but takes TWO feats and BAB5, so its just too slow.
1 Spellsword - -10% arcane spell failure with d10,+1caster lvl, +1bab. Allows a lot more shield and armor options, combined with Twilight(-10%ASF), thistledown (-5% ASF), and mithril(-10ASF).
5 Abj Champ - Incredible +5bab, +5caster lvl, +class level bonus to Shield spell (+9 shield!!!), Lum Armor spells(!), D10 HPs, and other goodies.
You can quicken ANY abjuration spell level 1 thru 3 as desired! (Dispel magic, prot elements, Shieldetc)
8 Sacred Exorcist - Turn Undead ability gained at level 1 to power Persistent spells, D8 hit dice, +6 out of 8 levels of BAB, +8 caster lvl, free Consecrate aura, detect evil at will, some other goodies.
Note: Requires 5th lvl spells to qualify (dismissal or dispel evil) so cant take until 12.
--------
Turn Undead: 3 base -1 from 8 CHA = 2 attempts. Add Nightstick,Reliquary Symbol for +6 total. Add extra turning feat for +4.
Total of 12 turns, for 2 persistent spells per day! (Or use 1 persistent, and 1 quickened spell per day)
examples of use:
Persistent Bite of Wearbear = +7nat AC, +16STR(!), +8CON, +2DEX, blindfight, powerattack feats, optional natural attacks (bite,2claw,1rend) with multiattack (-2ab for each extra attack)
Persistent Shapechange/Polymorph - Umm.. no need to really explain this one... A Bite of Wearbear War Troll is ridiculously good at level 10.
Persistent WraithStrike - all attacks become touch attacks. Godlike with power attack from Bite of Wearbear and arcane strike and 2handed longsword usage.
Persistent swifthaste or whatever. (the 6th lvl personal only haste). Fastmove, +1attack.
lots and lots of other solid options.
Arcane Strike is very powerful, as has been discussed many times before. Note that Abj Champ has a gimpy version for free.
Skill Notes:
------------
Thanks to human paragon, you start with 16 base skillpoints with 4 per +2INT over 10. These can be ANY skill you desire, so definitely use the paragon levels to choose the prerequisite skills below and get them early.
Able Learner turns all TEN of these chosen skills into class skills basically. Hence, you can become a pseudo-skill monkey. Don't overlook this ability to pick up handy rogueish skills.
Dont forget your free 1 class skill from paragon, so you can take Spot for example as a permanent class skill. This is ONLY relevant if you decide to skip Able Learner.
You need the following:
Know Arcana 6 (spellsword)
Know Planes 7 (sac exorcist)
Know Religion 10 (sacred exorcist)
Estimated skill points (with 16 INT at level 1, and +2 boost at lvl 3, pumping INT every 4 levels)...
58 base + 105 INT (assuming no intrinsic INT boost other than from paragon) = 163
That's a lot!
Optional Stuff:
---------------
4wiz,2fighter can be substituted for 3paragon, 2wiz,1fighter. AVOID doing so unless you have to, as the loss of skills will really hurt!
Specialist,Focused Caster wizard options are very valuable for additional slots. Dump Evocation and Enchantment most likely.
You could ditch some combination of Extra turning, nightstick, reliquary so that you end up with only 6 turn undeads for 1 persisted spell... or 10 for 1 persisted, and 1 quickened.
You should probably take Immediate Magic with a specialist Variant to ditch your familiar. With 2 wiz levels, your familiar wont be very good and is quite vulnerable.
I would recommend Conjuror for Abrupt Jaunt. A 10 foot immediate teleport, usable INT-modifier times per day is really really good! Avoid full attacks, teleport back and attack with spiked chain, the possibilities are endless.
Taking Flaws can allow you to move up the required feats (extend,persist,comb casting), and pick up other useful feats.
Weapon choice has a lot of versatility. I am not sure if you can hold a 2handed weapon with 1 hand and cast with the other or not. I would think so, and this opens up a powerful option.
If you can take a flaw, and hold a 2handed weapon with 1 hand and cast with the other, then I would take the Spiked Chain tree. Get Combat Expertise at lvl 1 with flaw. Then take Improved Trip and Exotic Wpn Proficiency:spiked Chain as your available feat and fighter free feat.
This gives you 15 foot range, ability to attack in melee, able to trip well and get a free followup attack with it.
Also, with persistent bite of the wearbear at lvl12 the +16STR will help a LOT in trip attacks. Enlarge person helps even more. If you really got cheezy and polymorphed into something strong (war troll), it would become ridiculous.
Conclusion
----------
I think this is a pretty solid build with plenty of options. You dont need any true rule-lawyer cheeze to make it work either such as begging for flaws, early entry with precocious apprentice, polymorph abuse reliance, achieving dubious prestige class prereq, and you dont have to eat a lot of feats on PrC prereq either.
Paragon is the only tricky part, and is very important for the skill-monkey aspect. You can still make a decent build without it though with the aforementioned substitution.
Your only real weakness is that the build is weak until level 7 (like most Gishes). 8 becomes pretty playable, and 12 is when you really become strong (persistent bite of weretiger or polymorph cheeze or whatever).
:D
No
You're much better off going fighter2/wizard8/eldritchknight10 or fighter2/wizard6/EK10/loremaster2 and using the still spell feat ot cast in armor.
I wonder...
Would Somatic Weaponary accomplish the same?
human* 0 Power Attack
sorcerer 1 Combat reflexes
sorcerer 2
sorcerer 3 Extend Spell
sorcerer 4
sorcerer 5
Warblade 6 Heighten Spell
Jd.Ph.Mage7
Jd.Ph.Mage8
Jd.Ph.Mage9 Rapid Metamagic
Jd.Ph.Mage10
Jd.Ph.Mage11
Jd.Ph.Mage12 Quicken Spell
Jd.Ph.Mage13
Jd.Ph.Mage14
Jd.Ph.Mage15 Robilar's Gambit
Jd.Ph.Mage16
Unseen seer17
Unsn Seer 18 Persistent Spell
Unsn Seer 19
Unsn Seer 20
*silverbrow human
I put unseen seer in the advancement,cause he has no requirments in feats,and a full spellcasting progression.Can freely be replaced with abj Champion at the cost of a feat(combat casting).
Also heighten spell can help you with other gish builds in this way:
Globe of invulnerability,lesser ,you heighten your wrathstrike and wings of cover,they don't.
And persistent spell has many applications,such as Persistent sadism spell...
Aouch!
1 level
Benign transposition
True strike
Familiar pocket
Ebon eyes
Nerveskitter
Shock and awe
Slide
Stand
Blade of blood
Wings of swift flying
Blocade
Bestow wound
2 level
Wraithstrike
Wings of cover
Sadism
Masochism
Heroics
Slide greater
3 level
Regroup
Ray of the python
Disobedience
Alter fortune
Siphon
Primal instinct
Ferocity of the sanguine rage
Mighty wallop greater
Vampiric touch
Dolorous blow
Battlemagic perception
4 level
Celerity
Dimensional anchor
Invisibility greater
Globe of invulnerability
Firestride exhalation
5 level
Arcane fusion
Dragonsight
Overland flight
Bigby s interposing hand
Duelward
6 level
True seeing
Contingency
Disintegrate
Starmantle cloak
Anticipate teleport greater
Antimagic field
Imue familiar with spell ability
7 level
Arcane spellsurge
Barghest s feast
Amber sarcophagus
Simulacrum
Energy immunity
Kiss of dragonic defiance
ironguard
8 level
Celerity greater
Chain dispel
Mind blank
Moment of prescience
Clone
Arcane fusion greater
9 level
Mordenkainen s disjunction
Time stop
Astral projection
Effulgent epuration
\m/ Stay Heavy dudes!! \m/
Bladesinger
Assassin
I'm too lazy to work out Swiftblade gishes with least CL loss, but being satisfied with either 3 or 6 swiftblade levels - 9/10 subchord casting is attainable, at least.
Also, static spell list (beguiler, warmage, dread necro) + versatile spellcaster means ( with a lenient DM ) means you still end up casting as 18th level caster.
(allowing higher level access for Warmage but not for Beguiler or DN would be reasonable. )
My Idea of a Gish Build
Variant PsyWar3/Warblade1/Warmage3/Sanctified Mind1/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/Sanctified Mind+2/AbjChamp5/SancMind+3
NG Human with Fire and Cold subtypes (due to Mantle of the Fiery Spirit/Icy Soul from Sandstorm/Frostburn respectively)
Feats
1st Education (Players’ Guide to Faerun version 38)/Iron Will/(PsyWar Feat)Dodge
3rd Somatic Weaponry (Complete Mage) or Improved Toughness (Complete Warrior)
6th Combat casting
9th Extra Spell (Shield)
12th Arcane Disciple (Odin (Deities and Demigods 164) (Magic)) (Complete Divine 79)
15th Arcane Strike
18th Arcane Disciple (Odin (Deities and Demigods 164) (Knowledge)) (Complete Divine 79)
Spells: as Warmage CL 18 (9th level), plus Shield and the Knowledge and Magic domains
Powers: as PsyWar ML 8 (various 3rd level), plus Magic mantle ability/optional powers from mantle (don’t have to take powers from Magic mantle, though recommended)
Stances/Maneuvers: as Warblade IL 9 (Maneuvers: Diamond Mind: Action Before Thought (Reflex) 2nd, Mind Over Body (Fort.) 3rd, Ruby Nightmare Blade 4th, Emerald Razor 2nd; Iron Heart: Steel Wind 1st; Stone Dragon: Bonesplitting Strike 4th, Stone Bones 1st, Elder Mountain Hammer 5th. Stances: Iron Heart: Iron Heart Surge 3rd; Stone Dragon: Roots of the Mountain 3rd.)
Equipment: Wyrmbane Helm (Dragon Magic 104-106), Crimson Ruination (Weapons of Legacy 61-63), Half-weight Mithril Full plate (counts as light armor (Underdark)), 1-3 shortspears, various potions (various cure x wounds and boosts), Martial and Magical scrolls (one or more of telekinesis at least), and Psionic devices.
HD 3d8 + 1d12 + 3d6 + 1d10 + 1d8 + 3d8 + 5d10 + 3d8
Recommended stats:
Str 14-15
Dex 10-12
Con 16
Int 17
Cha 18 (up to 19 ASAP)
Wis 17 (up to 19 ASAP, for AD and bonus PP)
The point of this build is to take advantage of two things 1): the Martial Arcanist feature of the Abjurant Champion that says that BAB=CL and 2) using the variant Psychic Warrior’s Magic mantle’s ability to treat the Sanctified Minds’ Power Resistance as Spell Resistance. Dex is a dump stat for the most part; the build mostly runs off of the Warmage stats with some high Wis and average Str, although it does synergize with the Warblade rather well. Maxing out the Knowledge, and Concentration skills is your best bet (Martial Lore and UPD/UMD if you can as well), baring any needed skills to qualify for prestige classes. The telekinesis scrolls are for bringing the enemy casters (that fail their evasion check to dodge the thrown boulder via the TK (as it only blocks Magic not Momentum)) to you to kill, especially the ones that tried to use AMF on you/themselves (Initiates of Mystra come to mind) to protect themselves from your spells. Disabuse them of this notion with Crimson Ruination, or your spears. Or be bait; hang out with the other casters/artillery and when the enemy tries to kill you, engage them in melee with Ruby Nightmare Blade and other offensive maneuvers/psionic powers to wreck their day, in addition to your spells. Also useful in a dragon slaying adventure.
Feel free to test this out, as I don’t know anyone who plays 3.5 near me.
Edit: Forgot Dragonslayer needed +5 BAB, fixed that.
Edit 2: Realized that there was an Abj Champ build above me, and realized my maneuvers might be off.
He has +19 BAB, 19 CL (only 5-lvl spells due SuArc spellcasting), 10 + 11d10 + 8d8 hp, high saves (13 7 15 without CHA bonus), -25% ASF. And take Obtain Familiar(CA) + Improved Familiar(CW), which get me Hippogrif familiar
1 Fighter1 Power Attack, Iron Will, Mounted Combat
2 Fighter2 Ride-by Attack
3 Paladin1 Combat Casting
4 Paladin2
5 Paladin3
6 Paladin4 Awesome Smite(CC) (subst: Mystic Fire Knight)
7 Paladin5 (ACF: Charging Smite(PHB II)) (subst: Mystic Fire Knight)
8 SuelArcanamach1
9 SuelArcanamach2 Obtain Familiar(CA)
10 SuelArcanamach3
11 SuelArcanamach4
12 AbjChamp1 Arcane Strike(CW)
13 AbjChamp2
14 AbjChamp3
15 AbjChamp4 Improved Familiar(CW)
16 AbjChamp5
17 Spellsword1
18 Spellsword2 Extra Spell(3rd-lvl)(CA), bonus: Spirited Charge
19 Spellsword3
20 Spellsword4
Pity that Suel Arcanamach does not have an evocation school spells, because Thunderlance is simply awesome for gishes (especially for flying gishes
).Any suggestions?
Casts as a 15th level wizard; BAB 14; 8+8d8+3d4+5d10+3d6 HP; Saves: 12, 7, 19; Can channel any touch spell through melee weapon as a standard action; Ignore ASF 10%; Can use a full-round action to cast an 8th level spell or lower AND make a weapon attack; free extend spell on abjuration school; and free quicken on abjuration spells 3rd level or lower.
Most characters can only attack OR cast each turn, this build can attack AND cast at least 3 different ways: channel, battlecast, & quicken (though a sane dm would not allow channel and battlecast on the same turn)
The trick is, only use spells without somatic conponents, meaning armour check penalties don't apply. I'm not sure if doing this makes him no longer a gish or something, but the list of spells you can use isn't half bad. It includes benign transposition, all the power word spells, and other goodies such as time stop. Sure it's pretty limited, but still a fairly decent build.